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"The foundation of JQuery is to make manipulation of the Dom easier"
"The foundation of Mootools is to make Javascript more extensible"
Both have their place... but JQuery is aimed more at people that don't
want to learn to program, while Mootools is aimed at people that want to
program and want a better object oriented language.
I agree that Mootools is a little harder to learn.. but it's a much
better implementation in the long run. It's about the same question as
Windows versus Linux... Windows is dominant in the non-programmer
community for users because it's easier to learn... but Linux is much
more stable and a better tool for programmers :).
Sincerely,
Brad Gies
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Bistro Bot - Bistro Blurb
http://bgies.com http://nocrappyapps.com
http://bistroblurb.com http://forcethetruth.com
http://ihottonight.com
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Everything in moderation, including abstinence (paraphrased)
Every person is born with a brain... Those who use it well are the successful happy ones - Brad Gies
Adversity can make or break you... It's your choice... Choose wisely - Brad Gies
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed people can
change the world. Indeed. It is the only thing that ever has - Margaret Mead
one example. a programmer who does not want native javascript object
prototypes to be modified would choose jquery. another programmer does
want them to be modified, so chooses mootools. this is just one example.
Programmers can be both experienced, and have different choices of
style, and neither one is wrong, just different.
Mootools allows you to extend the Javascript language and Javascript can
do a lot more than just manipulate the DOM.
So... for a framework like Joomla! that has hundreds... maybe thousands
of uses of Javascript, Mootools is a much better option because Mootools
allows you to do anything Javascript can do. For someone who is writing
a Joomla! extension and just needs to manipulate a few things in the
DOM, JQuery has some very good features, and is fast to work with.
Both are good, but Mootools is the correct choice for a framework.
Here's a link that does a much better job of explaining it than I do :).
http://www.jqueryvsmootools.com/
Sincerely,
Brad Gies
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bistro Bot - Bistro Blurb
http://bgies.com http://nocrappyapps.com
http://bistroblurb.com http://forcethetruth.com
http://ihottonight.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Everything in moderation, including abstinence (paraphrased)
Every person is born with a brain... Those who use it well are the successful happy ones - Brad Gies
Adversity can make or break you... It's your choice... Choose wisely - Brad Gies
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed people can
change the world. Indeed. It is the only thing that ever has - Margaret Mead
But maybe I'm just jaded :P
--
Phil Snell
Web Designer and Developer
Joomla! CMS Solutions Specialist
Snellcode LLC
Skype: philippe.snell
Mobile: 513-709-4014
www.snellcode.com
Let me say something. Joomla is not going to change it's core
javascript framework. However, we do make every effort to use it in
such a way as to play nice with the other frameworks/libraries in so
much as they do it in return.
There is nothing preventing anyone from use JQuery, YUI, et al in
their extensions BUT you will pay a price for not standardising on
Mootools (ignore that statement at your peril). Currently all the
developers that standardise on Mootools know, with confidence, that
their stuff is going to work on the shipped libraries and they will
get support from the project to fix problems. The "mess" that many
people find themselves with when developers don't standardise is that
component A uses one version of jQuery, module B uses another version,
and so on it goes, the end of which is a downward spiral of
incompatibility. Now, like I said, I've got nothing against anyone
used jQuery or the others, but for goodness sake those that do, get
your collective acts together and standardise versions of the *same*
framework so they all play nicely. Here's a classic case of why this
is a problem:
http://www.kunena.com/blog/19-developer-blog/68-mootools-and-kunena-16
In the end, the argument is not about Mootools vs jQuery, the argument
is about what happens when Joe Blogs wants to use something different
from "the standard". It's immaterial whether you agree with "the
standard".
Regards,
Andrew Eddie
http://www.theartofjoomla.com - the art of becoming a Joomla developer
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to joomla-dev-gene...@googlegroups.com.
The desire of many to use jquery should be understandable to anyone.
It's by far the most popular javascript library. like it or not, that's
the world we live in. So nobody should be surprised that there's a
desire to use jquery. YUI, sure it's great too, and many other
libraries.. but it's not quite the same issue.. jquery is clearly the
elephant in the room.
But just the fact that its popular doesnt mean joomla should switch to
it. And clearly we know from many many discussions, joomla will not
switch from it. So instead, those who want to use jquery should work on
finding the best and safest way to do that within that context.
Especially extension developers. It's one thing if it's your own site,
and you can tweak things just the way you want. It's very different
when a user installs your jquery based code, and it breaks against
mootools, or creates duplicate loading of jquery. That's the fault of
the extension developer, and your users deserve better than that.
No matter which library, it's very important to load the library in a
standard way. having several different extensions loading jquery is a
pain. it should be loaded once, and then there should be a standard way
to check that it is loaded. Thats how joomla loads mootools. It loads
it once in a standard way, not many times per module, component, plugin,
etc...
I suggest one system plugin to load jquery, and set a flag to say it's
loaded. Like $app->set('jqueryloaded', true); and then anyone could
check that standardized flag to know if jquery is already there. It's
these kind of constructive steps that the jquery people within the
joomla community should be doing. The code itself is fairly simple.
But it's not as much about the code as the developers being able to
cooperate, and agree to using one standard.
Phil
I've started looking to mootools for the first time. Version 1.2.5 is still available for download but version 1.3 is the current version. Would there be a problem if I learn and/or use the current version of mootools?
I know none of this matters if people use mootools. But for people that
still want to use jquery, there are some best practices that can be
adopted to make the extension compatible. So I think that this really
boils down too..
- if you want to use jquery in your extension, make sure to make that
very clear to users
- allow an option in the extension to disable the loading of jquery for
users that may load it other ways
- work towards loading jquery as a system plugin, using an application
level (JApplication) flag to say when its loaded
- work towards standardizing this flag, so that anyone who wants to load
jquery knows that this is what to look for
of course, you are right, it would be simpler if everyone used
mootools. Simpler from the point of view of joomla support, but there
are other factors that cant easily be ignored. Though I don't at all
think joomla needs to do anything officially to support jquery, I think
there are things the community can do to make it work better for users,
and let them have the choice.
Phil
1. Joomla core is standardised on Mootools.
2. Joomla will do everything in it's power to run Mootools in a
compatible mode with other libraries that do the same.
3. Extension developers can choose to standardise on Mootools or not,
but if not, the onus is on you to not break Joomla core.
4. Joomla will not be shipping with alternative javascript
libraries/frameworks in the near or distant future anymore than we'd
ship with the Zend framework, Symphony or similar to allow PHP
developers to use those in preference to the Joomla framework (even
though they are more popular than the Joomla framework ... for now).
That said, I have absolutely no problem with people collaborating
within this project to find solutions for people that want to use
jQuery should they so choose.
So, I suggest the people interested in jQuery do this:
a) Start a group on people.joomla.org to collect like minded people,
web and PHP developers and spread the word that you are trying to make
life easier for everyone that wants to use jQuery and Joomla.
b) Start an incubator project on joomlacode.org for ways to
standardise on a version of the jQuery files most likely using a
plugin.
c) Raise issues in the tracker where Joomla+Mootools does not seem to
be playing nicely in compatibility mode when both are present.
d) By all means grab some space on docs.joomla.org to tell people how
they can use jQuery "the right way" on Joomla sites.
e) Have fun while you are doing it :)
Hope this helps.
Regards,
Andrew Eddie
http://www.theartofjoomla.com - the art of becoming a Joomla developer
Discussion to continue over here:
-Joe
It is. I've taken an interest in helping you solve your problem given
all the other factors we need to balance in the project, given our
current standards, and also even though I don't really have a personal
interest in jQuery. I think that's fair, don't you ;)
Regards,
Andrew Eddie
http://www.theartofjoomla.com - the art of becoming a Joomla developer