1.5 and 1.6: A Joomla Developers Dilema

[Andrew Eddie]

The questions are starting to be asked by users.

How easy will the upgrade be from 1.5 to 1.6? The answer is, for the
"core" as easy as we can make it, but we have no control over third
party developers.

It follows then that many developers (that includes you template
designers as well) no doubt have many questions. One of those will be
"when do I need to start worrying about moving to the 1.6 platform"?
Well, I'm going to help you answer that one.

Start now!

Joomla 1.6 is now feature frozen. That means we (generally) won't be
changing the database schema and won't be changing the API. I say
generally because there are always bugs that come up that may require
us to repair or retrofit some things, but I'm hoping the instances of
these are low. When Joomla 1.6 hits the RC (Release Candidate) we are
saying that it's stable enough to start putting into production.

With only days passing since the Beta release information is obviously
still scarce about the implications for Joomla 1.6 on extension
developers. I recorded a 2 hour talk on many things the developer
will need to be aware of recently and that will be made publicly
available in a few weeks (or you can catch an exclusive preview at
JandBeyond at the end of this month).

In the mean time there are two places you can look for information on
extensions.

The first is here: http://docs.joomla.org/What%27s_new_in_Joomla_1.6#Developers

This is an outline of many of the changes that will affect developers.

The second is in the trunk SVN repo. If you checkout the trunk, have
a look in the follow folder:

/tests/_data/installer_packages

In there you will find example extensions that are in the correct
format to install in 1.6.

So let me say again, now is the time to start preparing for the
release of 1.6. Don't wait till 1.6 goes stable - that will be too
late. Why is this important? Because it's going to be much easier to
fix and correct broken things in the release during the beta phase
than after 1.6 goes stable. Beta and RC's are released every 2 weeks
like clockwork. After stable, this frequency reduces to about
monthly. In addition, attention becomes divided between maintaining
1.6 (and 1.5) and firing up the 1.7 development process. There exists
a golden opportunity over the next (probably) two months when you have
the project's almost undivided attention. Use it to your advantage.

Anyway, I thought it appropriate to mention since some people might be
wondering, or worse, be thinking that the best solution is to put off
thinking about 1.6 until the stable version comes out. That's really
too late. And if there is a carrot to be dangled, those that get
involved now will obviously be in the best position to influence how
problems get fixed and by what priority :) Another way of looking at
it is also that if you start now you can be working with your own
customers or community. After 1.6 goes stable, they'll be jumping on
your back for when the 1.6 version is going to be ready. And if you
want to be really mercenary, those getting 1.6 native extensions to
market first are obviously going to have the best traffic early on ;)

Regards,
Andrew Eddie
http://www.theartofjoomla.com - the art of becoming a Joomla developer

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[marius]

This is going to add an enourmous amount of workload to all Joomla 3rd
party developers. Lost of changes to the core which means developers
will have to double their amount of branches. Most projects would have
2 branches (one stable, one development), which means they would now
have to maintain 4 separate releases of their product.

It is going to be very hard for us at JFusion to maintain 4 different
releases and leaves us with a dilemma. Focus development onto Joomla
1.6, even though there are no "live site" users and sacrificy Joomla
1.5 development?

Of course like you mentioned it is an opportunity for paid projects,
but free opensource projects might struggle. At least with Joomla 1.5
there was a legacy mode to help ease the transition. Looking at the
change list, events and functions have been renamed with lost of
depreciated functions, meaning lost of work even for our extention
which already required PHP5. Such a transition legacy mode seems to be
missing.

Back to the drawing board :)

Marius

[Ian MacLennan]

Our goal has been not to remove any methods or classes that were not deprecated in 1.5.  If there are cases where this is not true, they should be filed as a bug report. (obviously there will be some necessary exceptions).

Ian

[Oli Griffiths]

Is this correct that 1.5 extensions will not work on 1.5? I was under the impression that all releases would be backwards compatible with the previous release?

Oli

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[Hannes Papenberg]

Since 1.6 has ACL and 1.5 hasn't, 1.6 extensions wont work on 1.5 and
the other way around. There are several other changes that prevent this.

Hannes Papenberg

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[Oli Griffiths]

I get that 1.6 extensions wont work on 1.5, but I thought that 1.5
extensions were supposed to work on 1.6. Backwards compatibility not
forwards.

[Hannes Papenberg]

The translation files have been changed, sections have been removed, ACL
has been added, JForm instead of JParameter everywhere... No, 1.5
extensions wont work on 1.6 without modifications.

Hannes

[Ryan Briscall]

Why are we discussing this? Who said it was necessary to upgrade to 1.6?

You can't just expect that your 1.5 site will magically be able to
upgrade to 1.6 with no problems. Only a newb would expect that.

"I was under the impression that all releases would be backwards
compatible with the previous release?"

You were under the wrong impression.

Sorry, but it doesn't work that way.

-Ryan

[Phil Snell]

Ryan,

Please don't be disrespectful of others on the list.

Phil

[Brad Gies]

Ok... here's a starter question :).

I'm planning to build an extension that will allow users of my Android
Cell Phone application to automatically register/create an account and
also allow them to setup their own private user group for themselves and
their friends. Most of it will be done using a web service type of API
from the custom extension.

I know how to build the controller, models and views, but can anybody
point me to documentation, source code, or API's that I should be using
to build this in the most 1.6 compatible way possible? My extensions'
core functions will be to register, set permissions, and optionally to
setup private groups.

Thanks for any pointers....

Oh.. and CONGRATULATIONS on 1.6. It looks even better than expected..
and I have been downloading and playing with the nightlies for several
months. You guys did a fantastic job.

Thanks,

Brad.

On 19/05/2010 3:50 AM, Andrew Eddie wrote:
> The questions are starting to be asked by users.
>
> How easy will the upgrade be from 1.5 to 1.6? The answer is, for the
> "core" as easy as we can make it, but we have no control over third
> party developers.
>
> It follows then that many developers (that includes you template
> designers as well) no doubt have many questions. One of those will be
> "when do I need to start worrying about moving to the 1.6 platform"?
> Well, I'm going to help you answer that one.
>
> Start now!
>
>
>

--
Sincerely,

Brad Gies
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[Dan Lopez]

You should contact Sudhi at su...@hooduku.com

They are building the Web Services API for 1.7+ release. It is available now from Plexicloud as GPL on Github

Questions let me know

[Andrew Eddie]

On 20 May 2010 01:19, Ryan Briscall <ryanbr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Why are we discussing this?  Who said it was necessary to upgrade to 1.6?

Hi Ryan.

If you choose not to, that is your right (and just ignore this
thread), but other will want do. Please respect that. Trying to
argue that people should not upgrade is not helpful.

Regards,
Andrew Eddie
http://www.theartofjoomla.com - the art of becoming a Joomla developer


>

[Andrew Eddie]

On 19 May 2010 22:46, marius <mari...@gmail.com> wrote:
> This is going to add an enourmous amount of workload to all Joomla 3rd
> party developers. Lost of changes to the core which means developers
> will have to double their amount of branches. Most projects would have
> 2 branches (one stable, one development), which means they would now
> have to maintain 4 separate releases of their product.

Hi Marius

Depending on the complexity of your extensions, yes and no. Some devs
are going to have to make two trees, some might get away with a
1.5/1.6 compatible version.

The choice you have though is you make the 1.6 version dumbed-down to
still work on 1.5, but not take advantage of any new features in 1.6,
OR you have to include a 1.6 compatibility layer in your 1.5
extension.

I know it's a tough call, but I've been warning devs for over a year
now this was coming :)

Regards,
Andrew Eddie
http://www.theartofjoomla.com - the art of becoming a Joomla developer




>

[Andrew Eddie]

Hi Oli

I think you meant to slip a "1.6" in there. The 1.6 API is backward
compatible (please look at the What's new doc for API that has been
removed in 1.6, and also marked deprecated). If it's not, then as Ian
says raise an issue. This is why I'm telling you to start testing
now. What has changed slightly is the format of the installation XML
manifest. So extensions are nominally backward compatible, but you
need to adjust the package for a 1.5 extension to install in 1.6.

Regards,
Andrew Eddie
http://www.theartofjoomla.com - the art of becoming a Joomla developer

[Andrew Eddie]

Hi Brad

There are two links I gave you in the start of this topic. Also, have
a good look at the code in the 1.6 extensions themselves. The easiest
ones to follow are Weblinks and Newsfeeds. More docs will become
available as time goes on.

Regards,
Andrew Eddie
http://www.theartofjoomla.com - the art of becoming a Joomla developer

[Oli Griffiths]

Any ideas about mootools being 1.2 and extensions using 1.11 at the mo.

Are you including a compatibility layer for mt 1.2 to 1.11?

I have a good one if u don't?

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[Andrew Eddie]

We are looking at putting the 1.1/1.2 compatibility layer into 1.5,
but for 1.6 we are considering going Mootools 1.3 so you'll get the
1.2/1.3 compatibility. I would work on that assumption for now
anyway.

Regards,
Andrew Eddie
http://www.theartofjoomla.com - the art of becoming a Joomla developer

[Matias Aguirre]

Hello everyone.

I have an idea that I would like to share with you, if that can be
carried out.
I am working on the project jUpgrade which try to migrate data from
one installation of Joomla 1.5 to Joomla 1.6. What makes the component
is to call functions using AJAX which made the whole process of
migration. I started using jQuery but to give more support Joomla im
implementing Mootools.

My idea basically is to create a mini-framework with tools for third-
party developers can create a quick and easy plugin for your
extensions.

Files that are called by AJAX have the following structure:

define ('_JEXEC', 1);
define ('JPATH_BASE', dirname (__FILE__));
define ('DS', DIRECTORY_SEPARATOR);
require_once (JPATH_BASE. DS. "defines.php ');
require_once (JPATH_LIBRARIES.DS. 'joomla'. DS. "methods.php ');
require_once (JPATH_LIBRARIES.DS. 'joomla'. DS. "factory.php ');
require_once (JPATH_LIBRARIES.DS. 'joomla'. DS. "import.php ');
require_once (JPATH_LIBRARIES.DS. 'joomla'. DS. 'error'. DS.
'error.php');
require_once (JPATH_LIBRARIES.DS. 'joomla'. DS. 'base'. DS.
'object.php');
require_once (JPATH_LIBRARIES.DS. 'joomla'. DS. 'database'. DS.
'database.php');
require_once (JPATH_LIBRARIES.DS. 'joomla'. DS. 'database'. DS.
"table.php ');
require_once (JPATH_LIBRARIES.DS. 'joomla'. DS. 'database'. DS.
"tablenested.php ');
require (JPATH_ROOT.DS. "configuration.php");

This allows access to the new installation of Joomla 1.6 using its
framework.

You will say if the task can be performed.

Regards

> Andrew Eddiehttp://www.theartofjoomla.com- the art of becoming a Joomla developer

[Andrew Eddie]

Hi Matias, would you be able to start a new thread about 1.5 to 1.6
upgrading on the JBS list.

http://groups.google.com/group/joomlabugsquad

There will be a team dedicated to this in the JBS.

Thanks.

Regards,
Andrew Eddie

http://www.theartofjoomla.com - the art of becoming a Joomla developer

[smk]

Eddie,

Thank you for the methodical email. I am a template designer that
focuses mostly on the church. I am note a "real" coder but I've
managed to use Joomla and simplify the "index.php" page to use in many
of my templates. Now when I look at the new default 1.6 templates
they just look so confusing to me. After 3 and a half years of
designing Joomla templates I feel so heavy right now. I'm not sure
where to begin and after reviewing the other templates it has not
gotten me any closer. Could you please point us template designer who
are not code oriented in the correct place? I'm willing to give it my
best try but just need a good starting point, and the default
templates seem to have too much going on for me to work with as a
grid. Thanks, SMK

> Andrew Eddiehttp://www.theartofjoomla.com- the art of becoming a Joomla developer

[Andrew Eddie]

Hi SMK.

The "Atomic" template is intended to be the simpler "trainer" style.
It's not quite finished yet though, but it's the one to watch. I'd
love to tell you more and I know enough CSS to be dangerous, but am
not be any means a designer :)

Regards,
Andrew Eddie
http://www.theartofjoomla.com - the art of becoming a Joomla developer

[Matt Thomas]

Hi SMK,

I'm currently in the process of doing a differential analysis of the 1.5 and 1.6 rhuk_milyway templates. The goal is to contribute this information for a document that can help those wanting to convert 1.5 to 1.6 templates. I know I'm not the only one doing this, but I don't think there is a coordinate effort yet. As of this moment, I plan to add this information to http://docs.joomla.org/Tutorial:Upgrade_Joomla_1.5_Template_to_Joomla_1.6 . If anyone wants to join me, by all means speak up and let's work together.

Best,

Matt

Matt Thomas
Founder - betweenbrain
web • print • identity • creative
www.betweenbrain.com

betweenbrain at The Joomla! Resources Directory™ - http://betweenbra.in/resources

Joomla! 1.6 Beta1 Download http://betweenbra.in/x/6

Joomla! 1.6 Issue Tracker http://betweenbra.in/x/5

[Matt Thomas]

Andrew,

Is there any other documentation, that you know of, that may apply to this?

Thanks,

Matt

Matt Thomas
Founder - betweenbrain
web • print • identity • creative
www.betweenbrain.com

betweenbrain at The Joomla! Resources Directory™ - http://betweenbra.in/resources

Joomla! 1.6 Beta1 Download http://betweenbra.in/x/6

Joomla! 1.6 Issue Tracker http://betweenbra.in/x/5

[Andrew Eddie]

Hi Matt.

No, nothing formal yet. Regarding new classes and styles and thing it
may be worth holding off a bit. I would wager there might be some
changes for the sake of sanity during the beta period. Elin, Angie,
Ron and Andrea (apologies in advance if I've missed others) are the
ones most involved in the frontend markup.

Regards,
Andrew Eddie
http://www.theartofjoomla.com - the art of becoming a Joomla developer

[Matt Thomas]

Hi Andrew,

Thanks. Maybe I can help document some of those details. At this point, my thought was more of the basics like what changes would need to be made to templateDetails.xml for a 1.5 template to work in 1.6. I see that params are now handled differently as well as some other nuances like defined('_JEXEC') or die. Maybe I need to start fresh and slowly rebuild one in 1.6.

Best,

Matt

Matt Thomas
Founder - betweenbrain
web • print • identity • creative
www.betweenbrain.com

betweenbrain at The Joomla! Resources Directory™ - http://betweenbra.in/resources

Joomla! 1.6 Beta1 Download http://betweenbra.in/x/6

Joomla! 1.6 Issue Tracker http://betweenbra.in/x/5

[smk]

Thanks Andrew and Matt. I've looked over the "Atomic" template and it
is simplier, although, it still uses some php in the "index.php" that
I'm not familiar with. I must just be used to real basic stuff. In
either case, I've noticed something about all the templates in this
1.6 beta release that I'm trying to understand, and that is why have
they all done away with "right" and "left" positions? I found those
postions to be very logical and user friendly; just trying to
understand why they've been washed away. Could I still use those
positions ("left" and "right") in my templates, or should I change
them to a defined user like "position-7" which is what the
"rhuk_milkyway" theme seems to be using for the sides instead of
"left", or does it matter? I want to make sure that I can continue
designing a template for my customers using postioins that they are
familiar with and makes sense but yet is more accurate for the 1.6.

On May 19, 4:31 pm, Andrew Eddie <mambob...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi SMK.
>
> The "Atomic" template is intended to be the simpler "trainer" style.
> It's not quite finished yet though, but it's the one to watch.  I'd
> love to tell you more and I know enough CSS to be dangerous, but am
> not be any means a designer :)
>
> Regards,

> Andrew Eddiehttp://www.theartofjoomla.com- the art of becoming a Joomla developer
>

> >> Andrew Eddiehttp://www.theartofjoomla.com-the art of becoming a Joomla developer

>
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[Mark Dexter]

There was a big discussion on list a while back about template positions. It was decided that generic position names were preferable, since people put stuff all over the page. (Or at least that was my short short understanding of it.) Mark

[Ian MacLennan]

Mark is right regarding the position naming.  Basically the notion was that if you call a position top, some designers may choose to put that position on the left.  Some templates don't have left and right positions - they stack everything on one side.

So, that was the idea behind that.

Now, is there any particular PHP in atomic you don't get?  Post it up here and we'll help dissect it.

Regards

[marius]

Could you imagine phpBB 3.2 being release with a note that people
can't automatically migrate their users/posts and none of their mods
will work? Or microsoft saying that all old .NET 3.5 framework
applications won't work on .NET 4.0 and people should dumb down their
3.5 applications? Of course not and I am similarly surprised that
there is no migration support or legacy mode in Joomla 1.6.

Its not just a matter of "dumbing down" code as lots of things are
renamed. Meaning any joomla app that uses events won't work anymore.
Why not have a legacy mode for these things. It would be very simple
to have a plugin that calls the old events inside the new event name
to ensure backward compatibility.

Similarly it would be easy to detect a joomla 1.5 install XML file and
install using the Joomla 1.5 xml type install file. I can give lots
more examples from your changelog document where it would be easy to
ensure backward compatibility. Of course people would have to make
their code PHP 5 compatible and remove dependency on some of the
libaries removed in Joomla 1.6.

Having no automatic migration tool for users and content is also a
disaster. Uptake of Joomla 1.6 will be low if no migration is provided
and there is no compatibility for components. Functions like ACL,
flexible categories, more easily upgrades are already available for
Joomla 1.5 and users would not have any incentive to upgrade to Joomla
1.6. This is not unfixable:

1) create a legacy plugin that will allow developers to make small
modifications to their Joomla 1.5 product to make them work on both
Joomla 1.5 and 1.6. This alone will save thousands of hours of work
for people involved in Joomla.

2) during the Joomla 1.6 install process there needs to be an option
to automatically import, users, categories and content to allow people
to migrate their site, even if some of their components do not work
anymore.

I'll be happy to help out with both of these. Thanks, Marius

[smk]

Thanks for that. Instead of trying to dissect code I don't understand
from another developers template - I've tried to incorporate some of
my existing code in order to set up a 3 column collapsible layout.
However, for some reason the "position-2" does not work. I've tried
several different modules and they do not appear and I've even tried
using a different position name. I'm guessing some of my php is out-
of-date, but not being a php coder I've always used what I know
works. Does anyone have any suggestions as to why the code below
doesn't work in a 1.6 platform? It's always worked like a charm in
1.5.


<?php if ($this->countModules ('position-1 and position-2')) { ?>

<table border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" id="mainLeft">
<tr>
<td><jdoc:include type="message" /><jdoc:include
type="component" /></td>
</tr>
</table>
<div id="leftColumn"><jdoc:include type="modules"
name="position-1" style="fx" /></div>
<div id="rightColumn"><jdoc:include type="modules"
name="position-2" style="fx" /></div>

<?php }else if($this->countModules('position-1')) { ?>
<div id="mainLeft2">
<jdoc:include type="message" /><jdoc:include type="component" />
</div><!--END LEFT CONTENT -->
<div id="leftColumn"><jdoc:include type="modules"
name="position-1" style="fx" /></div>

<?php }else if($this->countModules('position-2')) { ?>
<div id="mainLeft2">
<jdoc:include type="message" /><jdoc:include type="component" />
</div><!--END LEFT CONTENT -->
<div id="rightColumn"><jdoc:include type="modules"
name="position-2" style="fx" /></div>

<?php }else{ ?>
<div id="mainFull">
<jdoc:include type="message" /><jdoc:include type="component" />
</div><!--END MAIN FULL-->
<?php } ?>

> > > >> Andrew Eddiehttp://www.theartofjoomla.com-theart of becoming a Joomla

> > developer
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[Brad Gies]

Thanks Andrew, ... yeah... I'm fairly comfortable with looking through
source code, and I've already read the links you mentioned. I'm just
hoping I don't miss some obvious API type calls for registering users,
logging in and permissions, just because I don't know they are there :).
I didn't really expect much in the way of documentation this early, and
I tend to look at source code while I'm reading it anyway, just to be
sure :). I'll check out how the core components are doing and assume
it's "best practices" until I know better :).

Dan, Sudhi has already made contact with me, so I'll have a look at it
what he's doing. I'm not sure whether I want to use a framework for the
web services part of this, or just build my own. What I need is fairly
limited, so it'd be fast to build, but on the other hand, if using the
Framework would help advance it, I'm happy to do that also. Will let you
know :). Thanks.

Brad.

On 19/05/2010 3:07 PM, Andrew Eddie wrote:
> Hi Brad
>
> There are two links I gave you in the start of this topic. Also, have
> a good look at the code in the 1.6 extensions themselves. The easiest
> ones to follow are Weblinks and Newsfeeds. More docs will become
> available as time goes on.
>
> Regards,
> Andrew Eddie
> http://www.theartofjoomla.com - the art of becoming a Joomla developer
>

[elin]

smk,

There was a bug in alpha 2 that made count not work when there was
more than one position. If you find this is still happening in the
current code can you post an issue report please?

Thanks

Elin

On May 20, 12:04 am, Brad Gies <rbg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks Andrew, ... yeah... I'm fairly comfortable with looking through
> source code, and I've already read the links you mentioned. I'm just
> hoping I don't miss some obvious API type calls for registering users,
> logging in and permissions, just because I don't know they are there :).
> I didn't really expect much in the way of documentation this early, and
> I tend to look at source code while I'm reading it anyway, just to be
> sure :). I'll check out how the core components are doing and assume
> it's "best practices" until I know better :).
>
> Dan, Sudhi has already made contact with me, so I'll have a look at it
> what he's doing. I'm not sure whether I want to use a framework for the
> web services part of this, or just build my own. What I need is fairly
> limited, so it'd be fast to build, but on the other hand, if using the
> Framework would help advance it, I'm happy to do that also. Will let you
> know :). Thanks.
>
> Brad.
>
> On 19/05/2010 3:07 PM, Andrew Eddie wrote:
>
> > Hi Brad
>
> > There are two links I gave you in the start of this topic.  Also, have
> > a good look at the code in the 1.6 extensions themselves.  The easiest
> > ones to follow are Weblinks and Newsfeeds.  More docs will become
> > available as time goes on.
>
> > Regards,
> > Andrew Eddie

> >http://www.theartofjoomla.com- the art of becoming a Joomla developer

[Matt Thomas]

@smk

You can read more about the new position names at http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-cms/browse_thread/thread/5ff4b1d07431d12c/c763b369e72b737e . Keep in mind that these new names only affect the sample data. If you do an install without sample data, the way I generally approach it when creating a custom template with client provided content, it won't matter. You can use any name scheme that you'd like. You can also create your own custom installer/sample data using whatever module names that you'd like. I haven't had a chance to do this with 1.6 yet, but Andy Wallace posted the basic steps for 1.5 at http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?p=1376061#p1376061. I'd guess it's fairly similar.

I've started to go through this same process of figuring out how to upgrade a 1.5 to 1.6 template and will be contributing my findings at http://docs.joomla.org/Tutorial:Upgrade_Joomla_1.5_Template_to_Joomla_1.6 . If you can, please report back any questions or findings that you may have, and we'll incorporate them into the doc (or feel free to contribute to the doc directly). I'm also going to start a new thread devoted to the 1.5 to 1.6 template upgrade process.

Best,

Matt

Matt Thomas
Founder - betweenbrain
web • print • identity • creative
www.betweenbrain.com

betweenbrain at The Joomla! Resources Directory™ - http://betweenbra.in/resources

Joomla! 1.6 Beta1 Download http://betweenbra.in/x/6

Joomla! 1.6 Issue Tracker http://betweenbra.in/x/5

[smk]

Elin,

Well, I don't know if it's a bug or just my template. If the code I
posted should work, then there is a problem, but that was what I was
trying to determine. I tried uing different names for my positions
and of course making sure those names were in my xml details
file...but with no success. I can put modules either in all the
"sidebar-2" position or all in the "sidebar-1", however, when I try to
put modules in both one dissapears and it's always the last column
(sidebar-2) leaving the first "sidebar-1" working. I try and keep my
code very simple for my own sake. Do you see anything wrong with the
code? I've decided to post the entire contents of my "index.php"
page. I feel like I've just looked at too long and am probably
missing something and would rather know for sure before reporting a
bug. Thanks. :)



<?php
/**
* @copyright Copyright (C) 2005 - 2007 Open Source Matters. All
rights reserved.
* @license GNU/GPL, see LICENSE.php
* Joomla! is free software. This version may have been modified
pursuant
* to the GNU General Public License, and as distributed it includes
or
* is derivative of works licensed under the GNU General Public
License or
* other free or open source software licenses.
* See COPYRIGHT.php for copyright notices and details.
*/

defined('_JEXEC') or die;
?>
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN" "http://
www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd">
<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="<?php echo $this-
>language; ?>" lang="<?php echo $this->language; ?>" >
<head>
<?php
$app = JFactory::getApplication();
?>
<jdoc:include type="head" />

<link rel="stylesheet" href="<?php echo $this->baseurl; ?>/templates/
<?php echo $this->template; ?>/css/template.css" type="text/css" />

<!--[if lte IE 6]>
<link href="<?php echo $this->baseurl; ?>/templates/<?php echo
$this->template; ?>/css/ie6.css" rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" />
<![endif]-->
<!--[if lte IE 6]>
<style type="text/css">
#headerLogo, .moduletable h3, .moduletable_menu
h3, .moduletable_text h3, .moduletable_featured
h3, .moduletable_online, .moduletable_flashBanners, .button, a.readon
{behavior: url(<?php echo $path ?>/css/iepngfix.htc);}
</style>
<![endif]-->

</head>
<body id="body">
<div id="wrapper">

<div id="headerLogo" style="z-index:1">
<div id="logo"><a href="<?php echo $app->getCfg('live_site'); ?>"
title="<?php echo $app->getCfg('sitename'); ?>"></a></div>
<div id="topRight">
<div id="breadcrumb"><jdoc:include type="modules" name="breadcrumb" /
></div>
<div class="clear"></div>
<div id="search"><jdoc:include type="modules" name="search" /></div>
<div class="clear"></div>
<jdoc:include type="modules" name="top" /><!-- TOP MENU PLACEMENT
HERE-->
</div><!--END TOP RIGHT-->
</div><!--END HEADER LOGO-->

<div class="clear"></div>

<?php if ($this->countModules ('sidebar-1 and sidebar-2')) { ?>

<table border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" id="mainLeft">
<tr>
<td><jdoc:include type="message" /><jdoc:include
type="component" /></td>
</tr>
</table>

<div id="sidebar1"><jdoc:include type="modules"
name="sidebar-1" style="fx" /></div>
<div id="sidebar2"><jdoc:include type="modules" name="sidebar-2"
style="fx" /></div>

<?php }else if($this->countModules('sidebar-1')) { ?>

<div id="mainLeft2">
<jdoc:include type="message" /><jdoc:include type="component" />
</div><!--END LEFT CONTENT -->

<div id="sidebar1"><jdoc:include type="modules"
name="sidebar-1" style="fx" /></div>

<?php }else if($this->countModules('sidebar-2')) { ?>

<div id="mainLeft2">
<jdoc:include type="message" /><jdoc:include type="component" />
</div><!--END LEFT CONTENT -->

<div id="sidebar2"><jdoc:include type="modules"
name="sidebar-2" style="fx" /></div>

<?php }else{ ?>
<div id="mainFull">
<jdoc:include type="message" /><jdoc:include type="component" />
</div><!--END MAIN FULL-->
<?php } ?>

<div class="clear"></div>

<div id="footer">
<div id="footerTop"></div>
<div id="footerMid">
<jdoc:include type="modules" name="bottom" style="fx" />
</div><!--END FOOTER MID-->
</div> <!--END FOOTER-->
<div class="clear"></div>
<div id="footerBottom"></div> <!--END FOOTER BOTTOM-->

<div id="copyright"><a href="http://www.joomla.org"
target="new">Joomla</a> is Free Software released under the GNU/GPL
License. </div>

</div><!--END TEMPLATE WRAPPER-->

<jdoc:include type="modules" name="debug" />
</body>
</html>

> > >http://www.theartofjoomla.com-the art of becoming a Joomla developer

>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Joomla! General Development" group.
> > To post to this group, send an email to joomla-de...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to joomla-dev-gene...@googlegroups.com.
> > For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-general?hl=en-GB.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Joomla! General Development" group.
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> For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-general?hl=en-GB.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Ian MacLennan]

Can you pastie.org it or something instead of posting here?  Because code doesn't come across in the list very well.

Ian

[smk]

Matt,

Thank you for this info, this is very helpful. I do have one question
about the custom installer package. When creating something like that
are you basically using the existing version of the Joomla
installation? So what happens to security updates? For someone
making templates they don't want to have to redo that package
everytime there is a security update. Or are people suggesting that
once they use the installer package that they are to check for updates
and make sure their site is secure? Sorry if this is a silly
question, I never really understood how this could be done without
causing security issues, or even other issues with future updates not
working the same etc.

On May 20, 4:34 am, Matt Thomas <m...@betweenbrain.com> wrote:
> @smk
>

> You can read more about the new position names athttp://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-cms/browse_thread/thread/5f....

> Keep in mind that these new names only affect the sample data. If you
> do
> an install without sample data, the way I generally approach it when
> creating a custom template with client provided content, it won't matter.
> You can use any name scheme that you'd like. You can also create your own
> custom installer/sample data using whatever module names that you'd like. I
> haven't had a chance to do this with 1.6 yet, but Andy Wallace posted the

> basic steps for 1.5 athttp://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?p=1376061#p1376061. I'd guess it's

> fairly similar.
>
> I've started to go through this same process of figuring out how to upgrade

> a 1.5 to 1.6 template and will be contributing my findings athttp://docs.joomla.org/Tutorial:Upgrade_Joomla_1.5_Template_to_Joomla....

> If you can, please report back any questions or findings that you may have,
> and we'll incorporate them into the doc (or feel free to contribute to the
> doc directly). I'm also going to start a new thread devoted to the 1.5 to
> 1.6 template upgrade process.
>
> Best,
>
> Matt
>
> Matt Thomas
> Founder - betweenbrain
> web • print • identity • creativewww.betweenbrain.com
>
> betweenbrain at The Joomla! Resources Directory™ -http://betweenbra.in/resources
>
> Joomla! 1.6 Beta1 Downloadhttp://betweenbra.in/x/6
>

> Joomla! 1.6 Issue Trackerhttp://betweenbra.in/x/5

>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 9:27 PM, smk <smking0...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Thanks Andrew and Matt.  I've looked over the "Atomic" template and it
> > is simplier, although, it still uses some php in the "index.php" that
> > I'm not familiar with.  I must just be used to real basic stuff.  In
> > either case, I've noticed something about all the templates in this
> > 1.6 beta release that I'm trying to understand, and that is why have
> > they all done away with "right" and "left" positions?  I found those
> > postions to be very logical and user friendly; just trying to
> > understand why they've been washed away.  Could I still use those
> > positions ("left" and "right") in my templates, or should I change
> > them to a defined user like "position-7" which is what the
> > "rhuk_milkyway" theme seems to be using for the sides instead of
> > "left", or does it matter?  I want to make sure that I can continue
> > designing a template for my customers using postioins that they are
> > familiar with and makes sense but yet is more accurate for the 1.6.
>
> > On May 19, 4:31 pm, Andrew Eddie <mambob...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Hi SMK.
>
> > > The "Atomic" template is intended to be the simpler "trainer" style.
> > > It's not quite finished yet though, but it's the one to watch.  I'd
> > > love to tell you more and I know enough CSS to be dangerous, but am
> > > not be any means a designer :)
>
> > > Regards,

> > > >> Andrew Eddiehttp://www.theartofjoomla.com-theart of becoming a Joomla

> > developer
>
> > > >> --
> > > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > Groups "Joomla! General Development" group.
> > > >> To post to this group, send an email to
> > joomla-de...@googlegroups.com.
> > > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

> > joomla-dev-gene...@googlegroups.com<joomla-dev-general%2Bunsubs­cr...@googlegroups.com>
> > .

> > > >> For more options, visit this group athttp://
> > groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-general?hl=en-GB.
>

> > > > --
> > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > Groups "Joomla! General Development" group.
> > > > To post to this group, send an email to
> > joomla-de...@googlegroups.com.
> > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

> > joomla-dev-gene...@googlegroups.com<joomla-dev-general%2Bunsubs­cr...@googlegroups.com>
> > .

> > > > For more options, visit this group athttp://
> > groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-general?hl=en-GB.
>

> > > --
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "Joomla! General Development" group.
> > > To post to this group, send an email to
> > joomla-de...@googlegroups.com.
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

> > joomla-dev-gene...@googlegroups.com<joomla-dev-general%2Bunsubs­cr...@googlegroups.com>
> > .

> > > For more options, visit this group athttp://

> > groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-general?hl=en-GB.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "Joomla! General Development" group.
> > To post to this group, send an email to
> > joomla-de...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

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> > .

> > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-general?hl=en-GB.
>
> --
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> To post to this group, send an email to joomla-de...@googlegroups.com.

> To unsubscribe from ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -

[smk]

Sorry. Hope this works:

<script src='http://pastie.org/969367.js'></script>

> > > > >http://www.theartofjoomla.com-theart of becoming a Joomla developer

>
> > > > --
> > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > Groups "Joomla! General Development" group.
> > > > To post to this group, send an email to
> > joomla-de...@googlegroups.com.
> > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

> > joomla-dev-gene...@googlegroups.com<joomla-dev-general%2Bunsubs­cr...@googlegroups.com>
> > .

> > > > For more options, visit this group athttp://
> > groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-general?hl=en-GB.
>

> > > --
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "Joomla! General Development" group.
> > > To post to this group, send an email to
> > joomla-de...@googlegroups.com.
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

> > joomla-dev-gene...@googlegroups.com<joomla-dev-general%2Bunsubs­cr...@googlegroups.com>
> > .

> > > For more options, visit this group athttp://

> > groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-general?hl=en-GB.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "Joomla! General Development" group.
> > To post to this group, send an email to
> > joomla-de...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

> > joomla-dev-gene...@googlegroups.com<joomla-dev-general%2Bunsubs­cr...@googlegroups.com>
> > .

[Matt Thomas]

smk

You're very welcome. I found it to be great info and am happy to pass it along. Once you have created your custom installer, you can update it exactly the same way, and with the same update packages, as you would with any normal release of Joomla. That is, I used the 1.5.15 to 1.5.17 update package to update my custom installation from 1.5.15 to q.5.17. Keep in mind that update packages only update core files, so you'll need to update third-party extensions separately, and try not to hack the core as they may be over-written by the update.

Essentially, all we are doing here is modifying the "installation" folder and, more exactly, the sample data. If you just want to change the position names of the sample data, you could even create your own custom sample_data.sql and just replace that file in the installation folder.

These are not silly questions. You are looking at alternative ways of using Joomla and pushing it's limits. With that, you can cause growth and innovation. Please don't stop asking them.

Thanks!

Matt

BTW: You can just paste the URL generated in your address bar when using pastie (I just figured that out). So, your code it at http://pastie.org/969367 . Some email programs may filter out a link to a js file for security reasons

Matt Thomas
Founder - betweenbrain
web • print • identity • creative
www.betweenbrain.com

betweenbrain at The Joomla! Resources Directory™ - http://betweenbra.in/resources

Joomla! 1.6 Beta1 Download http://betweenbra.in/x/6

Joomla! 1.6 Issue Tracker http://betweenbra.in/x/5

[smk]

Matt,

I definately want to expand limits and appreciate the encouragement.
But I have to admit, I'm still a little confused on how you can keep
the process simple. Say for instance one has 100 templates that is
extremelly time consuming to have to repackage each and every one each
time there is a security update. I entertained the idea several
months ago but still haven't been able to justify the time and
effort. I need to have my time freed up for production/designing
templates, however, I know customers would greatly benefit from a
custom sample data package, but I just don't have that kind of time to
keep up with updates and repackaging. Your thoughts?

- SMK

On May 20, 7:09 am, Matt Thomas <m...@betweenbrain.com> wrote:
> smk
>
> You're very welcome. I found it to be great info and am happy to pass it
> along. Once you have created your custom installer, you can update it
> exactly the same way, and with the same update packages, as you would with
> any normal release of Joomla. That is, I used the 1.5.15 to 1.5.17 update
> package to update my custom installation from 1.5.15 to q.5.17. Keep in mind
> that update packages only update core files, so you'll need to update
> third-party extensions separately, and try not to hack the core as they may
> be over-written by the update.
>
> Essentially, all we are doing here is modifying the "installation" folder
> and, more exactly, the sample data. If you just want to change the position
> names of the sample data, you could even create your own custom
> sample_data.sql and just replace that file in the installation folder.
>
> These are not silly questions. You are looking at alternative ways of using
> Joomla and pushing it's limits. With that, you can cause growth and
> innovation. Please don't stop asking them.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Matt
>
> BTW: You can just paste the URL generated in your address bar when using

> pastie (I just figured that out). So, your code it athttp://pastie.org/969367. Some email programs may filter out a link to a js

> file for security reasons
>
> Matt Thomas
> Founder - betweenbrain

> > > betweenbrain at The Joomla! Resources Directory™ -
> >http://betweenbra.in/resources
>

> > > Joomla! 1.6 Beta1 Downloadhttp://betweenbra.in/x/6
>
> > > Joomla! 1.6 Issue Trackerhttp://betweenbra.in/x/5
>
> > > On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 9:27 PM, smk <smking0...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > Thanks Andrew and Matt.  I've looked over the "Atomic" template and it
> > > > is simplier, although, it still uses some php in the "index.php" that
> > > > I'm not familiar with.  I must just be used to real basic stuff.  In
> > > > either case, I've noticed something about all the templates in this
> > > > 1.6 beta release that I'm trying to understand, and that is why have
> > > > they all done away with "right" and "left" positions?  I found those
> > > > postions to be very logical and user friendly; just trying to
> > > > understand why they've been washed away.  Could I still use those
> > > > positions ("left" and "right") in my templates, or should I change
> > > > them to a defined user like "position-7" which is what the
> > > > "rhuk_milkyway" theme seems to be using for the sides instead of
> > > > "left", or does it matter?  I want to make sure that I can continue
> > > > designing a template for my customers using postioins that they are
> > > > familiar with and makes sense but yet is more accurate for the 1.6.
>
> > > > On May 19, 4:31 pm, Andrew Eddie <mambob...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > Hi SMK.
>
> > > > > The "Atomic" template is intended to be the simpler "trainer" style.
> > > > > It's not quite finished yet though, but it's the one to watch.  I'd
> > > > > love to tell you more and I know enough CSS to be dangerous, but am
> > > > > not be any means a designer :)
>
> > > > > Regards,

> > > > > Andrew Eddiehttp://www.theartofjoomla.com-theart of becoming a
> > Joomla
> > > > developer
>

[Matt Thomas]

Hi SMK,

I apologize for not being clearer. When I'm talking about security updates, I referring to the core software, not the templates. The templates themselves don't need to updated or repackaged every time there is an update unless they are bundled with the core software. Can you go into more detail on how you plan to do this or what you understand the case to be? Are you going to be providing the templates already installed in a custom installer or just use a custom installation / custom sample data to display them online. If they are bundled (like Rockettheme's RocketLauncher) you'll need to update the packages whenever there is an update regardless of it being customized or not.

Another option would be to provide the custom sample_data.sql with instructions on how to use it.

Does that help? Please provide us with more details and we'll help you sort it out.

Best,

Matt

Matt Thomas
Founder - betweenbrain
web • print • identity • creative
www.betweenbrain.com

betweenbrain at The Joomla! Resources Directory™ - http://betweenbra.in/resources

Joomla! 1.6 Beta1 Download http://betweenbra.in/x/6

Joomla! 1.6 Issue Tracker http://betweenbra.in/x/5

[Ian MacLennan]

Well, the link you gave him was for creating a custom install package.  I really don't think this is the road he wants to go down.  He's in the template business, not the sample data business.

IMO, we need to document typical module position names (on a functional basis and not a geo basis) and encourage template designers to use them.

I think the best bet for template designers is to see what core is doing and follow it.  Create templates that fit well with the sample data so users can start from there.

Ian

[smk]

Matt,

Thanks. Yes, I'm not sure that a bundled installer like Rockettheme
does is the way to go for me. I wouldn't have the time to update
each package everytime there was a Joomla security update, like you
said. I thought that was what you were referring to.

I've often thought of offering my sql dumps for each template,
however, I do wonder if that's really any less work because they would
still have to install any custom modules, extensions, etc. And in
addition to that, I've found that I can reuse my data dumps for my
live demos but sometimes with errors, like when I try to install a
google calendar for instance. It recognizes that the calendar was
once there but obviously the sql alone cannot install that extension
so when you do try and install it sometimes it causes problems because
of the sql dump it recognizes that it's there but it's not...hope that
makes sense. :) I don't want my customers to have to deal with issues
like this, and if there is a way around it I'd jump on it!

What I would like to do is continue providing well designed templates
- but would like to offer a better system for installing/setting up
the template for my customers. How I have been doing it with my 1.5
templates, and as most designers do, is just provide thorough
instructions on how to install and position all the modules. However,
I set up live demos with unique content, links, images, modules, etc.
per template. My customers really like that and often want to
duplicate the same exact content/look. But for a beginner that's not
always so easy.

If there is a way I can provide the same sample data as my live demo
for each template (most are unique to the template) without causing
errors in the users admin, and without it being a time consuming
matter on my end that I can launch a single time and never have to
update, I would certainly do it. Perhaps I've been seeking in the
wrong places in the past. What do you think is possible?

- SMK

On May 20, 7:36 am, Matt Thomas <m...@betweenbrain.com> wrote:
> Hi SMK,
>
> I apologize for not being clearer. When I'm talking about security updates,
> I referring to the core software, not the templates. The templates
> themselves don't need to updated or repackaged every time there is an update
> unless they are bundled with the core software. Can you go into more detail
> on how you plan to do this or what you understand the case to be? Are you
> going to be providing the templates already installed in a custom installer
> or just use a custom installation / custom sample data to display them
> online. If they are bundled (like Rockettheme's RocketLauncher) you'll need
> to update the packages whenever there is an update regardless of it being
> customized or not.
>
> Another option would be to provide the custom sample_data.sql with
> instructions on how to use it.
>
> Does that help? Please provide us with more details and we'll help you sort
> it out.
>
> Best,
>
> Matt
>
> Matt Thomas
> Founder - betweenbrain

> web • print • identity • creativewww.betweenbrain.com
>
> betweenbrain at The Joomla! Resources Directory™ -http://betweenbra.in/resources
>
> Joomla! 1.6 Beta1 Downloadhttp://betweenbra.in/x/6
>
> Joomla! 1.6 Issue Trackerhttp://betweenbra.in/x/5
>
>
>
> On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 10:25 AM, smk <smking0...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Matt,
>

> > > > > > > Andrew Eddiehttp://www.theartofjoomla.com-theartof becoming a

[smk]

Ian,

Yes, that is what I have been doing thus far is using the core and
designing around the default sample data. Unfortunately, from time to
time I still get customers who complain. They expect some type of
simple one step process. Some, not all, just don't want the hassel of
setting up their template from scratch, or even with the default
"sample data". I guess there really isn't a way around this, or at
least I've not found one.

SMK

> > Joomla! 1.6 Beta1 Downloadhttp://betweenbra.in/x/6
>
> > Joomla! 1.6 Issue Trackerhttp://betweenbra.in/x/5
>

> > On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 10:25 AM, smk <smking0...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >> Matt,
>

> >> > > > > > Andrew Eddiehttp://www.theartofjoomla.com-theartof becoming a

> >> > > Joomla
> >> > > > > developer
>
> >> > > > > > On 20 May 2010 09:19, smk <smking0...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >> > > > > > > Eddie,
>
> >> > > > > > > Thank you for the methodical email.  I am a template designer
> >> that
> >> > > > > > > focuses mostly on the church.  I am note a "real" coder but
> >> I've
> >> > > > > > > managed to use Joomla and simplify the "index.php" page to use
> >> in
> >> > > many
> >> > > > > > > of my templates.  Now when I look at the new default 1.6
> >> templates
> >> > > > > > > they just look so confusing to me.  After 3 and a half years
> >> of
> >> > > > > > > designing Joomla templates I feel so heavy right now.  I'm not
> >> sure
> >> > > > > > > where to begin and after reviewing the other templates it has
> >> not
> >> > > > > > > gotten me any closer.  Could you please point us template
> >> designer
> >> > > who
> >> > > > > > > are
>

[smk]

I'm trying to find where I would report issues like this for the
Joomla 1.6 beta1. Not sure where to go but it does seem that the same
issue as the alpha 2 count not working when more than on position is
still there in the beta.

On May 20, 3:05 am, elin <elin.war...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > >http://www.theartofjoomla.com-the art of becoming a Joomla developer

>
> > --
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>
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> For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-general?hl=en-GB.- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

[Mark Dexter]

I believe the plan is to create a 1.6 beta bug reporting forum, but it doesn't look like that has been done yet. I guess for now, either post something here or create a tracker issue in the 1.6 issue tracker. Thanks. Mark

[elin]

If you have bugs please report them to the 1.6 issue tracker, making
sure to search first so as not to duplicate a previous report.
http://joomlacode.org/gf/project/joomla/tracker/?action=TrackerItemBrowse&tracker_id=8103

See my other response in the other thread.


Elin

> > > > >http://www.theartofjoomla.com-theart of becoming a Joomla developer

>
> > > > --
> > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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> > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

> > joomla-dev-gene...@googlegroups.com<joomla-dev-general%2Bunsubs cr...@googlegroups.com>
> > .

> > > > For more options, visit this group athttp://
> > groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-general?hl=en-GB.
>

> > > --
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> > .

> > > For more options, visit this group athttp://

> > groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-general?hl=en-GB.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > --
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[smk]

I did try to submit 3 times but it didn't seem to go through. I know
that I'm registered properly so not sure what the issue is. I'm new
to all this and have never had to report a bug, so if I didn't do it
right I apologize. I'm feeling overwhelemed right now about all the
1.6 changes I've got to get caught up on, and on top of that trying to
learn on the fly on all these forums and we interact as a community. :
(

On May 20, 1:57 pm, elin <elin.war...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If you have bugs please report them to the 1.6 issue tracker, making

> sure to search first so as not to duplicate a previous report.http://joomlacode.org/gf/project/joomla/tracker/?action=TrackerItemBr...

> > > > > >http://www.theartofjoomla.com-theartof becoming a Joomla developer

> For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-general?hl=en-GB.- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

--
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[Louis Landry]

smk,

Don't get discouraged :)  I can understand the overwhelming feeling, but you are doing fine and we will get through all of this stuff fine.  You don't have to apologize if you mess up, and please don't be afraid to mess up.  Sometimes that is the best way to learn.  It is great that you want to jump in and help and we are all looking forward to whatever time you can give.  It all helps.

- Louis

--
Development Coordinator
Joomla! ... because open source matters.
http://www.joomla.org

[Matt Thomas]

On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 10:58 AM, smk <smkin...@yahoo.com> wrote:

 

If there is a way I can provide the same sample data as my live demo
for each template (most are unique to the template) without causing
errors in the users admin, and without it being a time consuming
matter on my end that I can launch a single time and never have to
update, I would certainly do it.  Perhaps I've been seeking in the
wrong places in the past.  What do you think is possible?

That would be fantastic, but I'm not sure how you could do it without a custom installer. Maybe someone else has a better idea. I'd be very interested to hear some other ideas. One thought that I had earlier regarding this would be to set up a CRON job or batch file to automate the upgrade process. Essentially all you are doing is copying the same files to different directories on a server. But... that does require some work and maintenance.

Hmm... I'll be curious to see what others think regarding this. I too am eager to be able to provide custom content that uses alternate module positions. My approach was going to use a custom installer, but there may be a better way.

Hope that helps,

Matt

[marius]

Anybody want to comment on:
http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-general/msg/8d9e11838aa1469b

Pretty important issues raised and I am willing to help fix them.
Thanks, Marius

[Ian MacLennan]

On May 19, 10:48 pm, marius <mariu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Could you imagine phpBB 3.2 being release with a note that people
> can't automatically migrate their users/posts and none of their mods
> will work? Or microsoft saying that all old .NET 3.5 framework
> applications won't work on .NET 4.0 and people should dumb down their
> 3.5 applications? Of course not and I am similarly surprised that
> there is no migration support or legacy mode in Joomla 1.6.
>
> Its not just a matter of "dumbing down" code as lots of things are
> renamed. Meaning any joomla app that uses events won't work anymore.
> Why not have a legacy mode for these things. It would be very simple
> to have a plugin that calls the old events inside the new event name
> to ensure backward compatibility.

Good idea.

>
> Similarly it would be easy to detect a joomla 1.5 install XML file and
> install using the Joomla 1.5 xml type install file. I can give lots
> more examples from your changelog document where it would be easy to
> ensure backward compatibility. Of course people would have to make
> their code PHP 5 compatible and remove dependency on some of the
> libaries removed in Joomla 1.6.

I believe in general you should still be able to install 1.5 extensions (I've tried the beta with 5 components and they seemed to install okay, even if they didn't run).

>
> Having no automatic migration tool for users and content is also a
> disaster. Uptake of Joomla 1.6 will be low if no migration is provided
> and there is no compatibility for components. Functions like ACL,
> flexible categories, more easily upgrades are already available for
> Joomla 1.5 and users would not have any incentive to upgrade to Joomla
> 1.6. This is not unfixable:

We certainly plan to have a migration solution for 1.6 and we really hope that it can go smoother than the leap from 1.0 to 1.5.  This got moved to post data because it was decided it was too difficult to work on migration before we're at beta stable point.  Now that we've hit that milestone migration is certainly something we intend to make happen.

>
> 1) create a legacy plugin that will allow developers to make small
> modifications to their Joomla 1.5 product to make them work on both
> Joomla 1.5 and 1.6. This alone will save thousands of hours of work
> for people involved in Joomla.
>

I've thought about this, but haven't had time to put a lot of legs on it.  It would be great if some people could look at the big extensions or popular extensions and figure out where they are breaking.  If it is framework stuff that is not deprecated in 1.5, then that should be fixed in the 1.6 framework.  If it isn't and we can fix it in a plugin, I certainly think a legacy plugin would be a good idea.  I suspect we'll see a lot of issues with people relying on globals that are no longer there ($mainframe being a huge one).

> 2) during the Joomla 1.6 install process there needs to be an option
> to automatically import, users, categories and content to allow people
> to migrate their site, even if some of their components do not work
> anymore.
>
> I'll be happy to help out with both of these. Thanks, Marius
>

Thanks for your willingness to step in and help.  I would suggest starting a thread on joomla-dev-cms to see if anybody else has started on this (I don't recall if a team had been formed for this or not) and move forward as appropriate.

Thanks
Ian

> --
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[N6REJ]

On May 19, 9:48 pm, marius <mariu...@gmail.com> wrote:

> 2) during the Joomla 1.6 install process there needs to be an option
> to automatically import, users, categories and content to allow people
> to migrate their site, even if some of their components do not work
> anymore.
>
> I'll be happy to help out with both of these. Thanks, Marius

I'm shocked to hear this. I would've thought the very fact that
joomla is designed for SIMPLE upgrade-ability and change without
losing CONTENT, which imho includes userbase, would have made this a
priority #1. This would be the first time that i can remember where
content and userbase is lost during an upgrade. For me this is a show
stopper. I'm not rewriting 2 years worth of work and research just to
hop on a "1.6" train. Thinking about this as I write it it boggles my
mind that something so simplistic $mv joomla1.5 ../joomla1.6
would be left out. I understand that their is a newer and much
anticipated ACL. But surely there are basic equivalents between our
current public/reg/special and its 1.6 eqv. 1.5 at its release was a
stepping stone to 2.0 to remove mambo style things, and move us to a
more dependable, secure joomla way. With the concept that once
everyone got to 1.5 then going to 2.0 would be much easier.
This is no different then what Microsoft did with Vista. XP was a
half-step. They knew that when they made it. Calling 1.6 1.6 implies
that its a STEP up from 1.5. Infact its sounding more like an
entirely different culture. ergo should be 2.0 (just as was done with
1.0.x ) to clearly show the complete separation in architecture. 1.5
had a migration tool. While It wasn't painless it was bearable.
Certainly 1.6 can have the same. Don't make me spend 3months, or pay
for conversion, trying to get the new 1.6 site. Quite frankly I doubt
I would do it (certainly won't pay to do it ) My knee jerk reaction is
this would tell me that its time for me to consider an entirely
different platform for my sites so that the bleed happens ONCE not
every few years.
I guess I'll have to install 1.6 in my sandbox just to see what all
the fuss is about, but I was waiting for a more finite release before
doing so.

[Louis Landry]

Troy,

Chill dude.  No one has said we aren't shipping a migration option.  We just said it wasn't a priority for the beta.  It isn't a difficult problem to solve as there really aren't *that* many changes between the versions as far as data is concerned.  I mean honestly... the sky isn't falling and things are going to be fine.

Regarding the "legacy" plugin.  It has been stated for at least a year now that we weren't planning on doing a legacy plugin for 1.6 ... that doesn't mean that one doesn't get done, it just means we aren't planning on it.  I am certain if its something that a broad group of developers needs that it will get built.

The changes between 1.0 and 1.5 are far more drastic than those of 1.5 to 1.6 ... the biggest differences are in the data model actually -- along with some additions to the API.  Data model changes are harder to deal with than API changes because it isn't as easy as a proxy method all the time.  The reality is that it won't take that much work in the vast majority of cases to make something that was 1.5 native 1.6 native.  There are a great number of things that have changed that will be very easy to provide a legacy layer for if someone is up to the task.  There may be (mostly due to data model changes) some places that are much harder to provide that legacy layer for ... and that is something that will need to be wrestled with.

At any rate, let's try a calm and rational approach to the situation instead of a bunch of unfounded comparisons to Microsoft's release strategies with a sprinkle of hysteria.  The passion is great, but it would be really cool if we could direct it towards maybe helping make a functional list of things that *have* changed so that we can get a better understanding of what it will take to provide such a legacy layer.  The migration stuff is in hand, and will be great when its done :)

- Louis

--
Development Coordinator
Joomla! ... because open source matters.
http://www.joomla.org

[Brian Royce]

Troy,

Have a client with an online store - they currently run a joomla 1.5 and VM. I am writing this because I would like to know what your thoughts are on upgrading the dev site now. We maintain a development site for feature development and updates and I am wondering if you would recommend upgrading that dev site to 1.6 now so that we can address issues as they come up verses waiting for a release. Also I know the Viruemart project team is working on a new version should we get that source and setup a new dev site... I am just wondering how forward thinking you think we should be.

Best regards / Saludos / Mit freundlichen Grüßen / Cordiali saluti / Cordialement / 亲切问候

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Brian Royce

CEO . Developer . Buyer - Sitebiz, LLC

O 713.SITEBIZ (748.3249) M 512.921.4664

skype: brianroyce aim: bmrsitebiz

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: 

This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message.

[N6REJ]

Sorry Louis, { waves flag in surrender } I knee jerked to marius's
post before I saw Ians. I really am a devotee or I would'nt be here
{gagged mode on }

> > joomla-dev-gene...@googlegroups.com<joomla-dev-general%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> > .

> > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-general?hl=en-GB.
>
> --
> Development Coordinator

> Joomla! ... because open source matters.http://www.joomla.org

>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Joomla! General Development" group.
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[Louis Landry]

Nah... its totally fine.  I do the same stuff... so forgive me in advance :)

I am totally stoked to have you here.  I didn't read into it you being a Joomla hater or anything, I more than anything wanted to clarify the situation for all the others reading along.  It is a GREAT time to be a part of the Joomla project.  It's going to be wonderful second half of 2010 and we have a really bright future moving forward.  I've been a big part of this project almost since its birth and I have never been as excited about how we find ourselves than I am right now.

- Louis

[N6REJ]

listening to the discussions here, with so many changes still taking
place, I would think that waiting for beta 2 would be prudent,
however, I've heard in some of the other discussions to get started
now. I"m just unsure how that would be possible with so many changes
still occurring.

On 21 May, 11:25, Brian Royce <brianro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Troy,
>
> Have a client with an online store - they currently run a joomla 1.5 and VM. I am writing this because I would like to know what your thoughts are on upgrading the dev site now. We maintain a development site for feature development and updates and I am wondering if you would recommend upgrading that dev site to 1.6 now so that we can address issues as they come up verses waiting for a release. Also I know the Viruemart project team is working on a new version should we get that source and setup a new dev site... I am just wondering how forward thinking you think we should be.
>
> Best regards / Saludos / Mit freundlichen Grüßen / Cordiali saluti / Cordialement / 亲切问候
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Brian Royce
> CEO . Developer . Buyer - Sitebiz, LLC
> O 713.SITEBIZ   (748.3249)      M 512.921.4664
> skype: brianroyce                       aim: bmrsitebiz
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE:
> This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message.
>
> On May 21, 2010, at 11:15 AM, Louis Landry wrote:
>
>
>
> > Troy,
>
> > Chill dude.  No one has said we aren't shipping a migration option.  We just said it wasn't a priority for the beta.  It isn't a difficult problem to solve as there really aren't *that* many changes between the versions as far as data is concerned.  I mean honestly... the sky isn't falling and things are going to be fine.
>
> > Regarding the "legacy" plugin.  It has been stated for at least a year now that we weren't planning on doing a legacy plugin for 1.6 ... that doesn't mean that one doesn't get done, it just means we aren't planning on it.  I am certain if its something that a broad group of developers needs that it will get built.
>
> > The changes between 1.0 and 1.5 are far more drastic than those of 1.5 to 1.6 ... the biggest differences are in the data model actually -- along with some additions to the API.  Data model changes are harder to deal with than API changes because it isn't as easy as a proxy method all the time.  The reality is that it won't take that much work in the vast majority of cases to make something that was 1.5 native 1.6 native.  There are a great number of things that have changed that will be very easy to provide a legacy layer for if someone is up to the task.  There may be (mostly due to data model changes) some places that are much harder to provide that legacy layer for ... and that is something that will need to be wrestled with.
>
> > At any rate, let's try a calm and rational approach to the situation instead of a bunch of unfounded comparisons to Microsoft's release strategies with a sprinkle of hysteria.  The passion is great, but it would be really cool if we could direct it towards maybe helping make a functional list of things that *have* changed so that we can get a better understanding of what it will take to provide such a legacy layer.  The migration stuff is in hand, and will be great when its done :)
>
> > - Louis
>

> > For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-general?hl=en-GB.

>
> > --
> > Development Coordinator
> > Joomla! ... because open source matters.
> >http://www.joomla.org
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Joomla! General Development" group.
> > To post to this group, send an email to joomla-de...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to joomla-dev-gene...@googlegroups.com.

> > For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-general?hl=en-GB.

>
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