Joomla!1.6 template contest

[Christophe Demko]

Do you know if a Joomla!1.6 template contest will be organized like
for Joomla!1.5?

And if yes what will be the instructions for the templates designer?

[Andrew Eddie]

Given that we are turning the output on it's head, I'm not sure it's
practical to do a contest this time - but that's just my take.

Regards,
Andrew Eddie
http://www.theartofjoomla.com - the art of becoming a Joomla developer




2009/11/4 Christophe Demko <chd...@gmail.com>:

[joomlapraise]

I'm in for a contest, for what it's worth :)

On a related note: is there a groups discussion (or some other
discussion) on the changes taking place in templates for 1.6?

On 4 Nov, 04:42, Andrew Eddie <mambob...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Given that we are turning the output on it's head, I'm not sure it's
> practical to do a contest this time - but that's just my take.
>
> Regards,

> Andrew Eddiehttp://www.theartofjoomla.com- the art of becoming a Joomla developer
>
> 2009/11/4 Christophe Demko <chde...@gmail.com>:

[Stian Didriksen]

@andrew so that means that templates made today, most likely break
tomorrow?
Makes sense that having to keep template developers informed on output
changes at this point would slow you down.

But I assume that this ongoing changes will stabilize at some point,
couldn't we arrange it then?

Logical that it might not be the best time to arrange it today, but I
feel the output changes should only affect "when", not "if" ;)

On 4 Nov, 11:42, Andrew Eddie <mambob...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Given that we are turning the output on it's head, I'm not sure it's
> practical to do a contest this time - but that's just my take.
>
> Regards,

> Andrew Eddiehttp://www.theartofjoomla.com- the art of becoming a Joomla developer
>
> 2009/11/4 Christophe Demko <chde...@gmail.com>:

[fititnt]

One contest like this one would makes some templade developers give
some experience and tips for general users, and provably now, since we
have more template providers, would be a much stronger competition
than it was for joomla 1.5, would be really useful for the users in
general.

Who will have this work are other developers and not the core staff.
Also, having professionals doing template would force them to
understand new concepts, and become beta testers of the different way
of doing templates. And they were likely to suggest improvements and
report errors.

Who do not love free beta testers :D?

On 4 Nov, 13:06, Stian Didriksen <st...@ninjatheme.com> wrote:
> @andrew so that means that templates made today, most likely break
> tomorrow?
> Makes sense that having to keep template developers informed on output
> changes at this point would slow you down.
>
> But I assume that this ongoing changes will stabilize at some point,
> couldn't we arrange it then?
>
> Logical that it might not be the best time to arrange it today, but I
> feel the output changes should only affect "when", not "if" ;)
>
> On 4 Nov, 11:42, Andrew Eddie <mambob...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Given that we are turning the output on it's head, I'm not sure it's
> > practical to do a contest this time - but that's just my take.
>
> > Regards,

> > Andrew Eddiehttp://www.theartofjoomla.com-the art of becoming a Joomla developer

[Lou Griffith]

Let's do it. I would also recommend that we also allow one for the backend as well. This would give the a sense of variety to the backend for the most part has remained static in it's UI.

 I am working on a couple now using the new 1.6 build.

But thats just me. 

[Amy Stephen]

Love the idea of building an Administrative Template contest.

To be honest, the last Template Contest turned out to be a bit of a nightmare. Many had problems with the voting approach. The project did not follow through with dates or responses very well. As a result, there were long threads of frustrated posters in the forums. No fun.

Those issues, aside, though, including the winning Template into the distribution turned out to require a great deal of work by the Joomla! Bug Squad, over a long period of time. It might have been better had there been an agreement that the winner would have also supported the work, but the contest was not configured that way.

If you have had the opportunity to work on the bug squad or help with 1.6, then you also have deep appreciation for the quality expected and the process work is evaluated under before inclusion into core. A template contest simply doesn't follow that approach. The winner is selected based on the visual appeal (as it SHOULD be) but to get into core, the dang thing has to be extremely well developed for a multitude of platforms and uses.

As a result of that experience, I personally do not believe we should ever include a contest entry in core, again.

I love the idea of a contest though! Generating some energy and Templates for the 1.6 release is a great idea. I absolutely love the idea of linking this to Administrative Templates since I think this is the new frontier for the next year or two. (Hats off to JoomlaPraise and Dioscouri for their leadership already in these areas.) I believe Ron indicated there will be a bit more flexibility in the Administrative Templating area when 1.6 rolls.

The community *needs* documentation to begin taking advantage of Administrative Templating. If this contest required directions on how to modify and further customize the work, and those instructions were posted in the Wiki along with a link to Joomlacode where one could get the download, then we might have something pretty cool.

[Mike Hamanaka]

Ron just recruited some more help for the showcase.

I'm sure we are going to be showcasing 1.6 sites, as soon as someone submits one!

Mike Hamanaka

Website Production 

Vertualize.com

[G. D. Speer]

What if the contest was constrained/required to use the proven, tested, hardened, distribution-ready index.html, and was limited to submitting a CSS and sprites, with a requirement that every CSS class on the list of core classes must be styled?

 

Kind of a CSS Zen garden approach. 

 

 

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[Andrew Eddie]

Certainly things need to stabilise first. I'm not against having one,
but would err on doing it after 1.6.0 is out. The danger in doing it
before is that it becomes a distraction to the main goal (shipping
stable). That said, it could also be used as a valuable tool for
promoting the new changes in 1.6 so it can go either way. Really, all
it needs is a couple of people not already doing something to run with
the idea and thrash it out.

Regards,
Andrew Eddie
http://www.theartofjoomla.com - the art of becoming a Joomla developer




2009/11/5 Stian Didriksen <st...@ninjatheme.com>:

[Andrew Eddie]

2009/11/5 joomlapraise <pixel...@gmail.com>:

>
> On a related note: is there a groups discussion (or some other
> discussion) on the changes taking place in templates for 1.6?

There was but it seems to have died off. The frontend is still
unstable in terms of the actual views that will be available but there
is nothing stopping have the standards discussed and ready to drop in
when I or someone get to the point of cleaning up the layouts. It's
an appropriate time to be ramping up those discussions.

Regards,
Andrew Eddie
http://www.theartofjoomla.com - the art of becoming a Joomla developer

[Andrew Eddie]

2009/11/5 G. D. Speer <gsp...@cortech.org>:

> What if the contest was constrained/required to use the proven, tested,
> hardened, distribution-ready index.html, and was limited to submitting a CSS
> and sprites, with a requirement that every CSS class on the list of core
> classes must be styled?
>
> Kind of a CSS Zen garden approach.

I would love to see a template (doesn't have to be in the core, a
semi-official template would do) that is used to do what they do on
Zen Garden for Joomla. That would be really, really cool. So maybe
that's a different angle you can take - maybe *that* is your
competition (Joomla zen of the month, whatever). That keeps things
active and creative. Could be done in conjunction with the Showcase
site. Just an idea ...

Regards,
Andrew Eddie
http://www.theartofjoomla.com - the art of becoming a Joomla developer

[Lou Griffith]

I love that idea. Gives an opportunity for people to keep coming back.

Maybe we could include this contest in the initial PR push when the RC is out. Kind of push the idea of customization and allow people to see that with a small amount of work, Joomla is uniquely you.

If this contest gets underway, do you think that there could be a link somewhere in the UI that says "Need a unique template, go here."? It takes a bit of know how to find great templates. Adding this link would add some umph the contest and help promote some of the designers out there and show the folks beginning with joomla that there are many ways to get templates.

This might be too late for 1.6 but having these submenus in the backend could help someone not familar with Joomla to get more extensions & templates for Joomla! faster.

I know that there are bigger fish to fry but this would be great.

~ Lou

[Ron Severdia]

Please refer to this thread from July for more information on the 1.6
templates:

http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-cms/browse_thread/thread/47ff08f2a269c71b/35db0680362152fd

[elin]

There are contests and there are contests. The 1.5 template contest
was a nightmare and continues to be a nightmare of support as well as
controversy. So while a contest for glory might be fun that's a
really different thing than saying that a template should be included
in the core distribution. I really think the Joomla Zen Garden idea is
even better than a contest. We have so many great designers working in
Joomla, let's show off their work instead of saying this is the one
that is best. We all know that best depends on what you are trying to
achieve.

As a practical matter, Milkyway thus far seems to be working perfectly
well. You can always use the old layouts. More important, I think
anyone doing templates can be working on their MooTools 1.2 javascript
now without waiting for stable.

@Lou I'm sure sample data will include a link to the Joomla! Resources
Directory where templaters who are Joomla focused are listed or should
be. So consider this a plug to those who haven't put in listings. :)

Elin

[Jen Kramer McKibben]

Hi all -- I like the idea of the Joomla Zen Garden. Anyone can
participate, anyone can flip through the designs and see how people
accomplished various effects. If the index.php code is visible before
it's rendered into HTML, that's even better.

As for the backend admin template, let me advocate for LESS diversity.
As an educator, teaching Joomla is much more straightforward when the
back end is put together the same way for every single Joomla
installation. It's already pretty easy to change a few colors or a
logo -- that I don't have any objection to doing. However, if you're
rearranging the order of menu items, locations of tools, etc, this
gets very difficult for clients to follow over time. It's hard for a
new Joomla admin to jump on board and take over the site.

I have often said that working in Joomla is much more like working
with software, not just an electronic brochure. Having some level of
standardization in the interface is important. A common admin
interface means that you can pick up any book on Joomla, any training
video, attend any course or go to any Joomla day or user group and see
exactly the same thing. The modules and components all have common
elements even though there are thousands of them out there. That
consistency is really important for those new to Joomla. It's one of
many reasons why we have over 10,000,000 downloads.

Thanks,
Jen

[Amy Stephen]

Those are very good points, Jen. I must admit, when I think of Admin Templates, I am thinking of custom apps and my own personal learning goals. And, you are right, that's probably not the best use case for a community "energy building exercise" for 1.6. 

[G. D. Speer]

I couldn't agree more. The backend template should not be a moving target.
One of the challenges I have is guiding clients that have installed
AdminPraise2.
I can't guide them where to click in a brief support call without pulling up
a site
and switching to that template or sharing their screen.
Don't get me wrong, I think Kyle has done an admirable design and I love
that the ualog is displayed on the dashboard and the tools are more locally
arranged by task and user level. Many good ideas, like a dropdown for
switching
editors on the fly, should find their way into the core.

It's just that during telephone support, the first question seems to be
about
"what menu options do you see" as a hint about which template
they are using and do they know how to set it back to Khepri . (Kep-what?)
(I almost want a 'global reset / reload defaults' button in the menu to
restore the
admin UI - particularly if some of the new layout ideas take flight.)

Work should go into making a wonderful feature-rich admin template for 1.6,
but then discourage changing the layout of tools, menus, widgets - whatever.
Skinning is fine. Personalizing the color scheme to match corporate
identity - great.
But a video tutorial for 1.6 should not become obsolete/unusable because the
core had choices for template layouts that relocates items on the screen -
especially
the predictable sandbox of screen space reserved for 3PD component
management.

A car's dashboard should look like a dashboard and the ignition should be on
the right
and headlights on the left if you want valets everywhere to park cars and
not run down batteries.
(What do you mean the lights can now turn themselves on and off?)

Nail the functional workflow-friendly UI and stick with it. Our clean admin
UI has been
what has set Joomla apart from many systems, (and the source of frustration
due to
workflow issues, but that are now mostly solved). Ron has made great
improvements
to the admin template - lets just continue to build on that effort and be
done.

My .03cts.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jen Kramer McKibben" <focus...@gmail.com>
To: "Joomla! CMS Development" <joomla-...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 6:34 AM
Subject: Re: Joomla!1.6 template contest


>

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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07:37:00

[Lou Griffith]

@elin - Yes I know the sample data includes the links to the resource pages on frontend when you install it. But that information gets eventually unpublished and deleted. What I am saying (might need to be a seperate topic) is to add a button that allows people to get to teh template or extensions page on the admin side. This will allow people who are working with Joomla to see a variety of what can be done or added. Wordpress does this very well.

@amy - I coudln't agree more. I love the adminpraise template but it does make it extremely hard to teach if you aren't right next to them. It would be nice though to have a variety in the styles for instance the way the icons look, etc. The layout could be fixed when we do the zen garden approach for admin templates.

@team - What would it take to get something like the zen garden contest underway? I would be more than happy to do anything to get it off the ground and the sooner the better. It would be great to have a first round done just before the launch of Joomla 1.6.

~ Lou

[Andrew Eddie]

2009/11/9 Lou Griffith <loud...@gmail.com>:

>
> @team - What would it take to get something like the zen garden contest
> underway? I would be more than happy to do anything to get it off the ground
> and the sooner the better. It would be great to have a first round done just
> before the launch of Joomla 1.6.

Lou, that's great that you want to run with it. I would start a new
thread (for the want of a better place, this list should be ok, or you
could use the forum if you wanted) and all you need to do is start
brainstorming the idea and see where it takes you. For now I'd run
with the idea that it's somehow connected with the Showcase site - I
think that's an appropriate spot at least for now.

Regards,
Andrew Eddie
http://www.theartofjoomla.com - the art of becoming a Joomla developer

[Lou Griffith]

Awesome - Will start right away!

[G. D. Speer]

Hi Lou -

I will encourage that the module positions you intend to use in the showcase be positioned using semantic names and that the index.html - which everyone is locked into using - have those names as classes.  For example: the position "left" simply will not be used.  The positions will instead be named for their functional content like login, search, newsflash, events, latestnews, and so on, and rendered in reader order (optimized for SEO) and then the stylists can put the content anywhere they want in their layouts want via css.

 

The content should be dynamic - perhaps use one of the Joomla.org community portal pages.  The index.html and the module positions that will contain and render data are all fixed.  A submission can include an uploaded js file and a set of css files and should be packaged with a manifest and the official approved index.html so it uploads as a complete frontend template for display & judging.  (If parameters are included, their defaults should be preset to display the designer's preferred scheme.)

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Lou Griffith

To: joomla-...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 1:00 PM

Subject: Re: Joomla!1.6 template contest

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[elin]

Hi,

Some of us have started some discussion of how to implement this idea
(yes Brad even said he thought it was a cool idea), and if there are
some people who would be interested in working on a team to think
about it, please feel free to email me. It's not really a topic
appropriate for this list at this point.

Elin

On Nov 9, 4:24 pm, "G. D. Speer" <gsp...@cortech.org> wrote:
> Hi Lou -
> I will encourage that the module positions you intend to use in the showcase be positioned using semantic names and that the index.html - which everyone is locked into using - have those names as classes.  For example: the position "left" simply will not be used.  The positions will instead be named for their functional content like login, search, newsflash, events, latestnews, and so on, and rendered in reader order (optimized for SEO) and then the stylists can put the content anywhere they want in their layouts want via css.
>
> The content should be dynamic - perhaps use one of the Joomla.org community portal pages.  The index.html and the module positions that will contain and render data are all fixed.  A submission can include an uploaded js file and a set of css files and should be packaged with a manifest and the official approved index.html so it uploads as a complete frontend template for display & judging.  (If parameters are included, their defaults should be preset to display the designer's preferred scheme.)
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Lou Griffith
>   To: joomla-...@googlegroups.com
>   Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 1:00 PM
>   Subject: Re: Joomla!1.6 template contest
>
>   Awesome - Will start right away!
>

>   On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 3:17 PM, Andrew Eddie <mambob...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>     2009/11/9 Lou Griffith <loudo...@gmail.com>:

>
>     > @team - What would it take to get something like the zen garden contest
>     > underway? I would be more than happy to do anything to get it off the ground
>     > and the sooner the better. It would be great to have a first round done just
>     > before the launch of Joomla 1.6.
>
>     Lou, that's great that you want to run with it.  I would start a new
>     thread (for the want of a better place, this list should be ok, or you
>     could use the forum if you wanted) and all you need to do is start
>     brainstorming the idea and see where it takes you.  For now I'd run
>     with the idea that it's somehow connected with the Showcase site - I
>     think that's an appropriate spot at least for now.
>
>     Regards,
>     Andrew Eddie
>

>    http://www.theartofjoomla.com- the art of becoming a Joomla developer
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Amy Stephen]

I agree with moving it from the Joomla! 1.6 CMS list. Would it possible, though, to move to the General Development Group?

It's always helpful to keep it open so that people can read along and possibly jump in, if they are interested. Once it moves to Skype or private email, that opportunity is lost.

Thanks for considering!

[Louis Landry]

How about since the discussion doesn't really have to do with development of anything other than a plan for a contest/resource, that the conversation live in the Joomla Forums instead of on our development mailing lists.  If/when something comes of it and template designers need to air out ideas and ask questions about how to achieve something specific to developing a "theme" then they should jump in on the general development list.  

- Louis 

--
Development Coordinator
Joomla! ... because open source matters.
http://www.joomla.org

[Amy Stephen]

Makes sense, Louis!

Lou Griffith - you mentioned a couple of posts, ago, that you were going to get started...

-- or --

Elin - who indicated she is working with a others (possibly with Lou, too?)

...would one of you open a topic in the forums and link to it here, so we know where to continue?

Thanks!

[Lou Griffith]

Me and Elin have talked offline. She is gathering up support for this. We will definitely post here where the conversation will continue. Thanks for your time team. ~ Lou

[Lou Griffith]

Hi Team,

Just wanted to tell you where we have moved this conversastion.
http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=262&t=460406&sid=18a85e7b9c2c0b43e30a76dc1dec7e4a

We have been talking off line and starting to put things together. We'd like to hear your suggestions but please note we are still in the beginning stages and might not incorporate everyones idea in the first round.

Thanks again to all who've allowed us to get this far and appreciate your support in the future.

~ Lou