Give Joomla! a new paint job

[Gergő Erdősi]

There has been a lot of talk recently about the Joomla! administrator
interface being stale and needing a refresh. It is true that it hasn't
changed a lot in the last few years and it is past time to start
thinking about making improvements. We are looking for designers and
usability experts to show us how you imagine the Joomla! administrator
interface. How would you improve it? Please send your thoughts and
ideas in the form of mockups to the mailing list so that we can see
what you have in mind and discuss them. We would like to see what you
have in mind within the next couple of weeks, so please send in your
mockups by June 21th in jpg or png format.

--
Gergő Erdősi

[Sander]

I guess you will follow the "An Accessible Backend" project for the
Google Summer of Code as-well?
http://community.joomla.org/blogs/community/830-an-accessible-backend-preparation.html

[Gergő Erdősi]

Sure, I'm in contact with Andrea and I follow her work.

--
Gergő Erdősi



2009/5/27 Sander <sander...@gmail.com>:

[Mark Dexter]

Hi. From a usability standpoint, two things come to mind.

1. You should be able to assign modules to a menu item when you are
editing the menu item. There should be a simple selection list box of
available modules (modules that are not assigned to All or All
execpt...). Also, if you copy an existing Menu Item, the modules
assigned to the "from" item should be assigned to the "to" item.

2. Creating new menus should be done in one screen (or perhaps a
wizard). It is confusing that you have to create a Menu in one place
and then create a mod_mainmenu module somewhere else. This should be
one process.

Thanks. Mark

2009/5/27 Gergő Erdősi <gergo....@joomline.org>:

[Andrew Eddie]

2009/5/28 Mark Dexter <dexter...@gmail.com>:

>
> Hi. From a usability standpoint, two things come to mind.
>
> 1. You should be able to assign modules to a menu item when you are
> editing the menu item. There should be a simple selection list box of
> available modules (modules that are not assigned to All or All
> execpt...). Also, if you copy an existing Menu Item, the modules
> assigned to the "from" item should be assigned to the "to" item.

I actually fundamentally disagree with that ;)

Editting a menu item is for editting a menu item. I think the intent
is valid, but somewhere in the Module Manager should handle that,
probably a batch operations helper or something. I've got some things
in mind to help on that side though.

>
> 2. Creating new menus should be done in one screen (or perhaps a
> wizard). It is confusing that you have to create a Menu in one place
> and then create a mod_mainmenu module somewhere else. This should be
> one process.

That's two different functions potential done by different people.
One is organisational, one is presentational. I don't think it's wise
to mix them.

Regards,
Andrew Eddie
http://www.theartofjoomla.com - the art of becoming a Joomla developer

[Ron Severdia]

> > 2. Creating new menus should be done in one screen (or perhaps a
> > wizard). It is confusing that you have to create a Menu in one place
> > and then create a mod_mainmenu module somewhere else. This should be
> > one process.
>
> That's two different functions potential done by different people.
> One is organisational, one is presentational.  I don't think it's wise
> to mix them.

Actually, that's the way it currently works. If you go into the Menu
Manager and create a new menu, typing a name into the Module Title
field will automatically create a Menu Module corresponding to that
menu.So they can already be done in a single step if you want or
separately if you don't.

[Mark Dexter]

Well, it's great to have a discussion about this, and obviously we
don't all have to agree on everything.

As far as assigning modules to menu items, it seems to me that we have
3 logical entities: the menu item, the module, and the assignment or
connection between them. It seems somewhat arbitrary to say that the
assignment function only makes sense in the module edit and not in the
menu item edit. Why not have it both places?

A typical use case is that you are adding a menu item and you want to
assign several modules to that menu item. Currently, this requires
creating the menu item and then editing each individual module to
assign it. If you have a lot of modules, this is very inefficient.
This could be streamlined by allowing you the option to select the
modules in the menu item screen. If there are security permissions
issues at larger sites, there could be an option to turn this feature
off. Or maybe it could even be a separate screen.

As far as creating Menus and Modules, perhaps we just need to make
this more obvious or have a multi-step wizard or something. Creating a
menu is often the very first thing that a new user has to do and from
my personal experience and from the forums I think this is not as
obvious and simple as it could be. Maybe something as simple as a pop-
up when you save the menu that says something like "This menu is not
associated with a menu module: would you like to create a new menu
module now?".

Thanks.

On 27 May, 16:56, Ron Severdia <ron.sever...@community.joomla.org>
wrote:

[Torkil]

I have some thoughts :)

1) Instead of making menu items in one step and assigning modules in
another, combine both into one operation: Compose a page.

Currently you can only assign modules to specific menu items. A menu
item is usually a view of a component. In my opinion, the main content
(component) and the modules belonging to the menu item, together make
a page. I would like to see that, instead of setting up menu items,
you are composing pages, so that you can, as Mark suggests, set up
menu items and add modules to menu items in one step. The module
manager could remain in place though, as it allowes placement of a
module on many pages simultaneously.

2) Instead of just being able to assign modules to menu items, you
could also assign them to menu item types (for instance category blog
view of com_content).

For instance, if I had a module that I wanted to display on all my
news category pages, I could assign the module to display on any
category blog view of com_content. For instance, for a news website,
for all my news categories I would want to display a module with a
list of the journalists in our news staff on the right hand side. If I
create a new news category and a new menu item, this module is
automatically added to the menu item based on its menu item type.

Taking this one step further, one could have more dynamic modules
that, instead of having static settings, could automatically detect
that the sports section was being displayed, and therefore only show
sports journalists.

3) Instead of just assigning a module to all or some menu items, it
would be nice to select items where you would NOT want the module to
be displayed. In other words logic like "Display on all menu items
except these"

4) Last, and most importantly in my opinion: Currently content has to
exist before you can set up a menu item; Article view requires the
article to exist, category view requires the category to exist, etc.
It would be brilliant if you, when you are setting up the menu item,
can select to create a new article or a new category to link to,
instead of having to go back to create a section, then create a
category, then create an article and THEN set up a menu item pointing
to that article. It might be a long shot, but it would be nice :)
Maybe more of a nice-to-have than need-to-have, but still :)

Same logic applies to creating articles for instance. If you, during
article creating, realize that this article will need a brand new
content category, then you should be able to create that category
whilst writing the article!

Conclusion: More flexible workflows I guess.

[Torkil]

Important notice, from the original post of this topic:

The team is looking for designs, UI mockups and scetches, not lengthy
texts with no images attached, like I managed to deliver :)

[Torkil]

One should possibly also take this request to the joomla.org
frontpage, so more people become aware of this...
UX and UI experts might not follow the Joomla! CMS Development mailing
list too closely.

[JM Simonet]

++

One should possibly also take this request to the joomla.org
frontpage, so more people become aware of this...
UX and UI experts might not follow the Joomla! CMS Development mailing
list too closely.

On 27 Mai, 22:06, Gerg‘ Erd‘si <gergo.erd...@joomline.org> wrote:
> There has been a lot of talk recently about the Joomla! administrator
> interface being stale and needing a refresh. It is true that it hasn't
> changed a lot in the last few years and it is past time to start
> thinking about making improvements. We are looking for designers and
> usability experts to show us how you imagine the Joomla! administrator
> interface. How would you improve it? Please send your thoughts and
> ideas in the form of mockups to the mailing list so that we can see
> what you have in mind and discuss them. We would like to see what you
> have in mind within the next couple of weeks, so please send in your
> mockups by June 21th in jpg or png format.
>
> --

> Gerg‘ Erd‘si

[sankesolutions]

Whilst the original author did ask for mockups and Jpgs, thats great
if your a designer but a lot of usability and accessibility is more
about how things work rather than how they look, asking for new
designs is great, but if we have a lot of designs then a lot of the
usability tweaks and changes suggested for each design will be
functional and not really shown in a jpg, although a good mockup CAN
tell a lot of stories. We almost need to settle on a basic design and
work with that to improve all aspects of usability, accessibility and
functionality. The current admin interface is not that bad and could
be a starting point, although by the end of it will probably look
quite different.

This is something which is a fluid process and should work hand in
hand with design, but not neccesarily just by providing mockups or
design layout. Of course this all impacts on the coding development
too as some changes will require coding based desicions.

Another problem as already highlighted in this post is that there is a
LOT to be discussed about usability this thread alone has gone into
depth about menus and modules and I think thats just scratching the
surface, you could include the editors discussion from a users point
of view too. One problem I have had, and one reason I think the UI and
UX is not discussed as much as other projects is that the structure is
aimed a lot at the development (nothing wrong with that). There are
places to report, submit and fix bugs, we have the great bug squad
etc. But there is no real place to report other types of problems
except the forums and posts can be missed and lost quite quickly. Can
I propose that we need a solution to allow people to discuss and start
working on these issues. This thread is a great start, but I fear the
subject is too big for one thread. A simple solution would be to start
a seperate thread for each 'area' that people want to discuss so maybe
one for design/layout, one for menu/modules etc etc with each thread
being named following a convention. For example "Joomla UI - Give
Joomla a paint job", "Joomla UI - Menu module management etc". Maybe
a seperate list purely for UI work, or an area of the forum so
requests/suggestions can be voted on or agreed/dismissed.

Another issue I have is im never sure which version I should be giving
feedback on, should I provide this feedback on 1.5 or forget that and
just download the nightly of 1.6 although which version now there is a
experimental branch. Again maybe we need to decide and give clear
guidance on what version we want feedback on, where to provide that
feedback and how it should be done.

Do we need a seperate small UI website, where people can submit
mockups in a gallery format and allow other people to vote, or will
this just get out of hand with lots of designers looking to get some
notice by providing 'their' designs rather than an analytical UI
overhaul. Do we scrap that idea and just go with what we have and see
how the process comes out? A lot of these are just questions and
suggestions, and probably not even good ones, but I am willing to 'get
involved'. As someone said elsewhere Joomla is known to be an easy to
use CMS, but I think its lost a bit of that. I have trained a number
of people how to use Joomla and although they understand it, a lot are
still scared and often forget one step. Some things need to be made
more fluid and flowing I feel.

I think we also need to decide exactly what the UI changes should look
at, are we just talking aesthetics how it looks or are we going to
look into the user experience in total which is a lot more indepth and
like I said early overlaps a lot with development based decisions, so
will our findings/thoughts even be taken into consideration. I
remember there was an accessibility group and section of the forum
which seemed to just slowly fade away as suggestions and feedback
which highlighted issues seemed to be ignored so some boundaries need
to be set and some interest and willing from the dev team that things
may need to change and that some 'cool' function or feature they want
to add might have to wait or be modified in the name of what the
community wants, otherwise were wasting our time!

Long post, apologies for that and its a bit all over the place, im
just pouring out my thoughts. I am willing to discuss/work with people
on how this can all work. Maybe this should be moved to another thread
on its own instead of hijacking the paint job thread! (dev can you
split this?)

Paul

[Torkil]

Agree on the "we need a separate place for this discussion" thought.
This will definitely be more than one discussion.

Also: A clear agenda should be set for the discussions. Send us your
JPG ideas is maybe a bit to vague. Sorry Gergö, I mean to be
constructive here! :)
Maybe a forum group on forums.joomla.org for UI/UX is a good idea, or
a separate Google Group?

I also feel that UX and UI is things that can improve gradually, over
time, in small increments too. Like from 1.6 to 1.6.1 one could
implement a set of changes, and then from 1.6.1 to 1.6.2 maybe a
larger and perhaps more radical set of changes. Time between major
releases (1.5 to 1.6) is too long not to introduce ANY new features,
but just doing bugfixes, and makes the project stall completely.

If you ask me we should have done ACL for 1.6, nested categories for
1.6.1, Mootools update for 1.6.2, etc. That way we take eatable chunks
at a time, and release more often, instead of doing massive overhauls
like with the coming 1.6 with all the three included.

PS: Forgive me for saying "we" while not being part of those who are
committing code! It just goes to reflect my feeling of belonging in
this project, so I mean well ;)

[Gergő Erdősi]

I can understand both of your point, and mostly it's right. We would
like to see mockups to get ideas, see what other people think. But the
main reason is to gain one or more UI experts who can later co-lead
this effort with Andrea (who is also a UI professional).

You are asking what version to use. As you said, the current interface
is not too bad, and we follow now the stable trunk strategy, which
means that the development will be happen in branches, and if a branch
is stable, then it goes into the trunk. This UI interface improvement
is not an exception, it will be happen in a branch, and once it is
stable it goes to the trunk. When will it happen? It depends on the
support we get from the community. If we get a lot of help from people
then probably it will be in 1.6, if not, then in 1.7.

For the usability things, yes those are very important and need
discussion. Changing the UI takes a long time, that's why we are
looking for UI experts who can later lead this project. They need
coordinate the project and get continuous feedback from the community.
Yes, the UI change is more than a mockup, but we would like to have
some experts first who can coordinate this change.

At the moment we don't plan to use a gallery for mockups, maybe when
it ends. I opened a topic here instead of making an announcement on
joomla.org to easily discuss each mockups and each problems. I would
like to concentrate mainly on mockups in this topic, so although the
other usability things are very important, yes, they should be in an
other, separated topic (in my opinion).

--
Gergő Erdősi



2009/5/28 Torkil <torkil....@gmail.com>:

[Lawrence Meckan @ Absalom Media]

On 28 May, 18:02, Torkil <torkil.john...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Important notice, from the original post of this topic:
>
> The team is looking for designs, UI mockups and scetches, not lengthy
> texts with no images attached, like I managed to deliver :)

Designs, mockups and sketches don't replicate functionality.

UX modelling under AJAX is a blank canvas, and always will be.

Personas, use cases, process flows and demographic behaviour modelling
apply instead.

I'll be delivering "working state" demos, since we're dealing with
Mootools dependence across the board, along with the obligatory
"pretty" of designs/layouts/mockups/sketches.

UX genius' are not just graphic designers, even though graphic art
plays a part in engineering a usable solution. Some days I wish the
devs would recognise this.

Lawrence / absalom

[Hannes Papenberg]

Would you really use a product, that changes its behaviour in bug fix
releases? I wouldn't. I am already scared when I have to switch some of
the sites that I maintain over to 1.6 and have to teach my users how to
use the new system. As much as I'd like to implement some changes
between minor releases, this is just a no-go.

Hannes

Torkil schrieb:

[elin]

Just to follow up from Mark, I don't necessarily think that it has to
be on the same screen, but right now it is too many clicks.
Create a menu link. Save.
Go to extensions menu, get modules drop down.
Click on the first module that you want.
Edit list of menu items to add the new one.
Save.
Cick on second module you want.
Edit list of menu items.
Save
repeat.

In a site which uses several modules on each page but not necessarily
the same ones on all pages, it is a lot of clicking.


Create a new menu. This creates a new module. To get to the module, go
to the extensions menu, get the drop down, click on module manager,
find the new module by paging or filtering, set the assignments.

At least could there be appropriate links to the module manager from
the menu interface?


Elin

> 2009/5/28 Torkil <torkil.john...@gmail.com>:

[Gergő Erdősi]

Sure, you are right, UI change is more than just design. Before
starting the project I just would like to see if there are UI experts
in the community, who can help us in this change, because if there
aren't, then probably it wouldn't be successful. So for example it
would be good to get a mockup and a small description how the author
imagines the other necessary changes, what he thinks should be
improved etc. and the community can discuss it.

--
Gergő Erdősi



2009/5/28 Lawrence Meckan @ Absalom Media <me...@absalom.biz>:

[elin]

Just to follow up from Mark, I don't necessarily think that it has to
be on the same screen, but right now it is too many clicks.
Create a menu link. Save.
Go to extensions menu, get modules drop down.
Click on the first module that you want.
Edit list of menu items to add the new one.
Save.
Cick on second module you want.
Edit list of menu items.
Save
repeat.

In a site which uses several modules on each page but not necessarily
the same ones on all pages, it is a lot of clicking.


Create a new menu. This creates a new module. To get to the module, go
to the extensions menu, get the drop down, click on module manager,
find the new module by paging or filtering, set the assignments.

At least could there be appropriate links to the module manager from
the menu interface?


Elin

On 28 May, 06:19, Gergő Erdősi <gergo.erd...@joomline.org> wrote:

> 2009/5/28 Torkil <torkil.john...@gmail.com>:

[Lawrence Meckan @ Absalom Media]

On 28 May, 20:19, Gergő Erdősi <gergo.erd...@joomline.org> wrote:
> I can understand both of your point, and mostly it's right. We would
> like to see mockups to get ideas, see what other people think. But the
> main reason is to gain one or more UI experts who can later co-lead
> this effort with Andrea (who is also a UI professional).

We had a team. It got shut down.

So here we are again..

I'm working on more than just mockups.. More like "alpha" frontend
functionality.

I know J 1.5 and above is dependent on Mootools like a cocaine addict
is dependent on their dealer, so we may as well use that to our
advantage. We'll need to make sure whatever solutions delivered
remain:

a: Progressively enhanced. Not much use otherwise. Sure, UX without it
might be more usable and pretty for management (especially if we
engineer Moo-based solutions), but it will fail the goal of
accessibility.

b: Backwards compatible. Whilst Moo's bleeding edge code may work, we
need to always consider edge cases. The gotchas will kill if we end up
with an "accessible" structure across all the areas of the core, we
market it as such, and some person or government body calls us on it
and it fails (SOCOG vs Maguire applies here).

c. Able to move/adapt with new standards. No use setting the codebase
in stone and then falling behind the times again. By my recollection,
we're already 2 years behind in lead time to market, because the same
things I'm voicing here I was also voicing as part of the Joomla
Usability & Accessibility team.

> You are asking what version to use. As you said, the current interface
> is not too bad, and we follow now the stable trunk strategy, which
> means that the development will be happen in branches, and if a branch
> is stable, then it goes into the trunk. This UI interface improvement
> is not an exception, it will be happen in a branch, and once it is
> stable it goes to the trunk. When will it happen? It depends on the
> support we get from the community. If we get a lot of help from people
> then probably it will be in 1.6, if not, then in 1.7.

This mentality is good. Small iterative steps, even if they remain
subtle, are better.

The real issue is sourcing talent again.

> For the usability things, yes those are very important and need
> discussion. Changing the UI takes a long time, that's why we are
> looking for UI experts who can later lead this project. They need
> coordinate the project and get continuous feedback from the community.

The community alone won't be enough.

HCI and UX behaviour should tell you that you should never poll a
group of developers/users on their own product, unless you use them as
some part of the control group. Why ? Because they know the product.
They know that they will operate it in a certain way, with certain
distributed means and variations between behaviour.

More than anything else, we need an "outside look" in. This doesn't
mean testing the usability and accessibility on your folks. This means
hard analytical data, based on the demographics of Joomla users. The
more feedback we have in regards to UI/UX behaviour by end users, the
better. This means there is a justifiable business case for those UI/
UX changes. And then unleashing the same UX models on new groups
outside Joomla.

> Yes, the UI change is more than a mockup, but we would like to have
> some experts first who can coordinate this change.

<Looks around> ??

> At the moment we don't plan to use a gallery for mockups, maybe when
> it ends. I opened a topic here instead of making an announcement on
> joomla.org to easily discuss each mockups and each problems. I would
> like to concentrate mainly on mockups in this topic, so although the
> other usability things are very important, yes, they should be in an
> other, separated topic (in my opinion).

Like Paul/ Sanke Solutions said, it's more than just mockups. It's
about engineering a solution that works, aesthetically, across the
demographics we're aiming for Joomla to meet the needs of, in a way
that is accessible and usable to their needs.

Lawrence

[sankesolutions]

Ok people seem to be in agreement with what I said :) Now who makes
the decision on where we take this conversation/s as this thread is
going to get out of hand and very confusing. Who makes decision on new
forums at Joomla or should I just go ahead and set up a new Google
group for this process? As everyone is locationally challenged and
some may be in bed or at work I will wait to see what others suggest.

I also agree we need to get help from outside of the core community,
but maybe community member clients etc. I have an idea on this, but
will hold off until I have looked into it more.

regards
Paul

[Torkil]

@Hannes

Change and development is a good thing, not something you should be
scared of :) If we do not develop, our users will soon find others
that do.

I would like improvements to be available as soon as possible, yes. If
you come up with something that makes my clients' life (and hence my
life) easier, then I want to start using it yesterday! What can be
better than happy and pleased clients and users? Small incremental
changes should never be scary, just welcome and much needed
improvements.

The 1.5.0 RC arrived about 2 years before 1.6 Alpha (given that it
arrives in June). I think two years is a long time to only do
bugfixes, and not being able to tweak the UI for instance.
Now, a (great!) initiative has been launched, but it's just 4 weeks
before the scheduled Alpha release. Do we really spend 2 years fixing
bugs and then just do a last-minute 4 weeks work on the UI?

I feel that the world has moved forward the passed five years, but
Joomla (UI in particular, being so closely related to Mambo 4.5) has
not moved much at all.

I also agree with Lawrence on the value of getting the outside look on
Joomla.

[Ron Severdia]

The primary issue with what Mark described is nomenclature. Having the
ability to change the module assignment within menu items changes the
basic usability paradigm. Modules are, in a sense, appended to menu
items and adding this functionality in the fashion described makes
sense from a developer's point of view, but not a user's. What changes
that is if the Menu Manager was changed to a Page Manager where more
items could be controlled on a "page" basis. There has been talk of
this for Joomla 2.0 so it may be a bit premature for 1.6. Even a
single screen where the user could assign modules to menu items all in
one step is a serious task and could have serious ramifications for
sites with hundreds of menu items and hundreds of modules.

Torkil wrote:

> Do we really spend 2 years fixing
> bugs and then just do a last-minute 4 weeks work on the UI?
>

*Sigh*. Yes, I've been preaching this for some time. There's an
unfortunate philosophy that UI/UX work only belongs at the end of the
process.


As far as Gergő's original request is concerned, I think he was asking
for interface improvements and specific enhancements from a visual UI/
UX perspective, not major functionality changes. I think there are
some good ideas floating around here, but not really within the scope
of what was originally requested.

[Torkil]

Good points Ron.

It's a bit of a short notice since we have quite a few jobs in the
pipeline right now and especially since we're off on summer vacation
soon.
It would however be nice to see if we could set aside some time here
at BEDRE reklame to come up with some suggestions :)


On 28 May, 15:50, Ron Severdia <ron.sever...@community.joomla.org>
wrote:

[Jen Kramer McKibben]

I would love to see, on one screen, from the FRONT END, in a single
interface window, the ability to do all of the following things before
clicking Save:

Tab 1: editor, put in content/images/PDFs
Tab 2: create menu item
Tab 3: assign modules
Tab 4: assign templates

The front end tab availability would be controlled from the back end,
i.e. if there's only 1 template in use on the site, the template tab
could be disabled. Or you could disable all of the tabs.

Those of you who have not sat down with a client and trained them on
how to create a new piece of content and link it to a menu in Joomla,
I would encourage you to do so. Watch how confused everyone gets, even
when you lay out the order they MUST follow (a. create content, b.
link to menu, c. assign modules and assign template)

I always attempt to build a site such that the client can edit it from
the front end -- but as soon as module assignment, template
assignment, or creating new content with menu links needs to happen, I
have to show them the back end of Joomla. I would just as soon keep
them on the front end, and they're much happier there as well.

I am NOT saying that you need to destroy the article manager, menu
manager, module manager, and template manager, and meld these things
into a single interface from the back end. It's extremely helpful to
have these items available individually as a developer.

But let's think about front-end editing as the way non-technical
people add and edit content to their websites.

Mitch Pirtle said at the CMS Expo conference in December that Joomla
was originally designed so that you didn't have to know PHP and MySQL
to work with it. I'm testimony to that. :-)

Let's also make it so it's quick and easy to edit a Joomla site for
those with no technical background. Make it easy for those 99% of
people out there who own businesses and don't know a thing about
building a website, and we will all have lots of work to do.

Jen

[Louis Landry]

Torkil,

You raise some good points.  Let me try to address some of it in line.

On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 7:18 AM, Torkil <torkil....@gmail.com> wrote:

@Hannes

Change and development is a good thing, not something you should be
scared of :) If we do not develop, our users will soon find others
that do.

I would like improvements to be available as soon as possible, yes. If
you come up with something that makes my clients' life (and hence my
life) easier, then I want to start using it yesterday! What can be
better than happy and pleased clients and users? Small incremental
changes should never be scary, just welcome and much needed
improvements.

Absolutely agree with those sentiments.  We are not scared of changes, we just want to be mindful of the impact those changes have on the way people use and understand the software.  Good design improvements are often subtle and integrate well into the mental model that users already have on how the software works.  I think the point is we want to be iterative about how we apply changes to user interface so as to not shock end users at every turn.  That being said, lets see those mockups :-)

 

The 1.5.0 RC arrived about 2 years before 1.6 Alpha (given that it
arrives in June). I think two years is a long time to only do
bugfixes, and not being able to tweak the UI for instance.
Now, a (great!) initiative has been launched, but it's just 4 weeks
before the scheduled Alpha release. Do we really spend 2 years fixing
bugs and then just do a last-minute 4 weeks work on the UI?

Actually, let me frame it another way for you.  We have spent 2 years fixing bugs and stabilizing a platform, and now we are kicking off a new era of iterative, quick releases on said stable platform.  As part of that kickoff, we want to jumpstart people who are interested in improving the UI to get involved.  The first deadline in an ongoing effort is 4 weeks away, so send us what you have been dreaming and thinking about.  We might get some into 1.6, we might not get any of it in 1.6.  What we will have though, is a collection of good ideas and a forum for solid discussion around how we can make things easier.  As time goes on -- and we intend to drive releases quickly now -- we can merge in good ideas and make marked improvements that our UI/UX experts work on.

Some of the best improvements to Joomla will likely be worked on asynchronously from a release in the future.  It is important for us to get smaller, more iterative releases out quickly.  We are taking steps to make that a reality and as a part of that process we will be working on a whole host of things asynchronously.  I have a ton of little pet project things I have spent time on for Joomla in my arsenal.  Very little of that will make it into 1.6 for example, but I will have it ready and waiting for 1.7 or any other subsequent releases.

Don't think of it as 4 week sprint to do UI work... think of it as the beginning of a new way to approach UI work for Joomla -- or any work for that matter.  Lets put our heads together and show each other our ideas.

I feel that the world has moved forward the passed five years, but
Joomla (UI in particular, being so closely related to Mambo 4.5) has
not moved much at all.

I couldn't agree more.  Let's start the process.

--
Development Coordinator
Joomla! ... because open source matters.
http://www.joomla.org

[Amy Stephen]

Glad to hear Louis make it clear to all of us that this is the beginning of a process and that we are not looking to make radical changes quickly.

The existing priority for 1.6 of getting all components into a MVC architecture is important to this initiaitive because it makes template overrides easy. Combine that deliverable with the GSoC Project Andy is doing to create accessible output for the Administrator, and already, 1.6 has excellent deliverables.

With those tools, we will be able to individually play with the Administrator and try different layouts without impacting the entire community.

Since we were asked for Mockups, I want to suggest a neat tool that is free to use (you can pay a nominal amount for more capabilities) http://lovelycharts.com/ - it's a nice easy to use graphical interface for creating wireframes.

Whether you tackle one area - like the discussion on Menu Items - or - you address an entire page layout, using this tool might make it easier to communicate your point. Nothing like having a visual.

We have excellent UI/UX resources in the community - to name a few - Andy (obviously!), and also Jen, Ron, Steve, Zuno, and Paul - and I would be thrilled to see such bright, positive people consider a good process to move forward in this area, over time.

Thanks to the Dev's for opening this discussion and calling for our ideas, in the form of mockups. Much appreciated!

[Ron Severdia]

OK.. So I'll jump in first since I already had this pretty much done a
few months ago.

http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-cms/web/j1.6_admin_home_RS_052809.jpg

I won't say a word or explain anything...just let the folks here
comment as they will. I'm sure there will be plenty of opinions. :)

[Imran Ali]

Let me start the commenting process Ron! Awesome Job!! :D Looks really
cool indeed. So when can we have an alpha to test with?? :P

On 29 May, 00:07, Ron Severdia <ron.sever...@community.joomla.org>
wrote:

> OK.. So I'll jump in first since I already had this pretty much done a
> few months ago.
>

> http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-cms/web/j1.6_admin_home_RS_...

[Torkil]

I see new icons and an update warning in the bottom, otherwise same
interface?
I commend you on the first contribution to the discussion!

[Torkil]

I like very much this page, where Drupal is working on THEIR usability/
user experience etc:
http://www.d7ux.org/

I also like their UX principles:

1. Make the most frequent tasks easy and less frequent tasks
achievable.
2. Design for the 80%
3. Privilege the Content Creator
4. Make the default settings smart

Nice GUI mockups they have going, for instance here:
http://www.d7ux.org/content/

[Mark Dexter]

Wow! I really like those 4 principles!

1. For example, creating Menu Items and putting modules on them.
2. Less sophisticated users.
3. Front-end content providers.
4. (I think we do reasonably well at this.)

Mark

[Ron Severdia]

> 1. Make the most frequent tasks easy and less frequent tasks achievable.
> 2. Design for the 80%
> 3. Privilege the Content Creator
> 4. Make the default settings smart

Yes, these are good principles. But they apply to good UX design in
general and aren't new ideas they've come up with.

I'd add to that list

1. The "Don't make me think" Principle: Don't make users think too
much (if at all) about how to set about accomplishing a task.

2. Match user expectations: When a user sees a button, do they
immediately know what they'll get when they click it? An example of an
adjustment for this in my mockup is the View Site link that replaces
the Preview link. The Preview is not actually a preview but just a
link to the home page.

3. Have a clear visual language: WordPress does this better than
anyone else and it's the main reason they have a reputation for being
the easiest piece of software out there. In my mockup, I've used the
filing cabinet/folder to help make the relationship between Sections,
Categories & Articles clear right off the bat for new users.

4. Anticipate user needs: This is sprinkled throughout the items
mentioned, but deserves to be stated on it's own. Creating solid
Persona Scenarios are a great way to identify workflows.

5. Use clear & consistent nomenclature: If 99% of the population calls
the main page of a Web site the "Home Page," you have to have a
powerful and compelling reason to rename it the "Front Page." Aren't
all public-facing pages "front pages"?

I could go on, but I would advise against focusing on just four things
when there are other very important UX principles.

[Michael Hamanaka]

I would like to see a "add new module" button on the main admin page.

-m

[Torkil]

I'd say we are in agreement, since your five points can very well be
seen as detailed specifications of nr 1:

"Make the most frequent tasks easy."

This term is also much easier to understand and grasp, than terms that
contain words like "nomenclature" and "Persona Scenarios" in the
mix ;)
They have just put together 4 main, generalized headlines into one
goal that they are working towards. From the scetches I have seen I'd
say they are doing a good job too!



On 28 Mai, 23:34, Ron Severdia <ron.sever...@community.joomla.org>
wrote:

[Ron Severdia]

James Hafner posted this option for front-end editing...

http://jameshafner.com/blog/Joomla-Frontend-Usability.html

This is exactly what I was thinking about for expanding front-end
management (kinda like the UserVoice tab). But it doesn't quite
succeed since users are accustomed to the "edit this page" paradigm—
which, I guess, could be another button in the floating palette. But I
don't think you can expect novice users to navigate the Article
Manager in the same way they navigate the site to find the page they
want to edit.

Then there's the question of where's the cut-off point? What do you
have on the front-end and what do you force users to log into the back
end to manage? Is this just a floating menu for specific workflows?

[Andrew Eddie]

> I'd add to that list
>
> 1. The "Don't make me think" Principle: Don't make users think too
> much (if at all) about how to set about accomplishing a task.

I really don't like that statement because you have to think to exist.
To me "don't make me think" breeds complacency. I prefer "be
intuative" or "assist me to solve my problem in a logical an easy
way". I know it's semantics but the intent is quite different. To me
"don't make me think" is creating lazy brains. Why do you think Brain
Training on the Nintendo DS sells so well :P

Regards,
Andrew Eddie
http://www.theartofjoomla.com - the art of becoming a Joomla developer

[Amy Stephen]

In hearing Mark's discussion of Modules, it dawned on me one of the challenges in considering usability is the fact that we sometimes build Joomla! Web site differently.

1. I create/install my basic Template with JDoc - and have Module Positions defined.
2. Then, I create Sections, Categories, and "mock" Articles.
3. Next, I configure other Components.
4. Then, I create Menus and Menu Items.
5. Finally, I create Modules.

If I understand correctly, Mark wants to select Modules to show up on a page when he is creating his Menu Item. That would solve a usability problem for his workflow but it would could be confusing to people who build sites, like I do, because I have not created Modules by that point in my workflow.

Neither way is "right" and the reality is that Mark and I are only two of thousands of people who use Joomla!. I am certain there are many other work flows and usability issues that exist of which we are not aware.

Which leads to these kinds of questions:

• How do we know where we should begin?
• How can we be confident our changes result in improvements (for most people?)
• Should be first consider approach? 

Ideas on approach -

It might make sense to identify basic work flows (User Management, Site Creation, Content Development) and then ask the community to prioritize areas for improvements.

Given their direction on priority, we could document current work flow and identify what we see as usability issues. Share that work with the community and ask if they use different approaches or if they have problems we have not identified.

Given that information, we could mock up designs and document what we recommend as improved work flows, sharing that work back with community for feedback.

That's just one possible approach, the main idea being to find ways to involve the community very specifically as we go along so that we can ask questions - and they can provide feedback in clear and useful ways.

It's good we are beginning this usability work and it'll be neat to see more early mockups come in to get a pulse on where we see problems.

Thanks.
Amy

[Andrew Eddie]

What it sounds like is that there is a need for an extension
notionally called "Easy Content" that is able to assemble a team of
nifty wizards to pull the individual management functions together. I
don't think it makes sense to try and make each individual manager
(menu, module, articles components) try to know about everyone else.
But it would make sense to have some aggregation in the middle
somewhere to assist with automation and productivity. If that's the
intent, then I think that's a something worth pursuing.

Sound about right?

Regards,
Andrew Eddie
http://www.theartofjoomla.com - the art of becoming a Joomla developer

2009/5/29 Amy Stephen <amyst...@gmail.com>:

[Ron Severdia]

Andrew Eddie wrote:
> I really don't like that statement because you have to think to exist.
> To me "don't make me think" breeds complacency. I prefer "be
> intuative" or "assist me to solve my problem in a logical an easy
> way". I know it's semantics but the intent is quite different. To me
> "don't make me think" is creating lazy brains. Why do you think Brain
> Training on the Nintendo DS sells so well :P

I think you're mixing complacency with ease of use. The principle is
one focused on "minimal cognitive strain", not spoon-feeding users
(though advanced users may sometimes perceive it that way). If you
haven't read Steve Krug's usability book, then I'll add that the
"Don't Make Me Think" Principle is probably an over-simplification of
the approach.

And if there's anyone who hasn't read it... BUY IT NOW! :)

http://www.amazon.com/Dont-Make-Me-Think-Usability/dp/0321344758/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1243555605&sr=8-1

[Ron Severdia]

On May 28, 4:48 pm, Andrew Eddie <mambob...@gmail.com> wrote:
> What it sounds like is that there is a need for an extension
> notionally called "Easy Content" that is able to assemble a team of
> nifty wizards to pull the individual management functions together.  I
> don't think it makes sense to try and make each individual manager
> (menu, module, articles components) try to know about everyone else.
> But it would make sense to have some aggregation in the middle
> somewhere to assist with automation and productivity.  If that's the
> intent, then I think that's a something worth pursuing.

Yes, what you've described is basically this extension on steroids...

http://extensions.joomla.org/extensions/core-enhancements/content-management/2514/details

[G. D. Speer]

Amy, you are raising a great point.  I dimension I find missing is time, and by that I mean managing a site once

it's delivered to users.  A designer's workflow is much different than an end site-owner's maintenance workflow.

Great sites with dynamic content spend 90+ precent of their life needing post-deployment end-user maintenance.

That's the 80% user I envision and their #1 goal is to put up a new page of content easily and get the sidebars

filled with those great modules you designed.  The path they follow today is tortuous.

Developers are by nature feature centric.

Maintainers - our clients - are page centric.

Lets figure out the best UI for the end user who want to put up a new page easily - then expand from there.

My 3 cents.

 

Ron - love the File cabinet/folder pages icons - very intuitive - (matches the way I explain it)

---

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[Andrew Eddie]

Ok, if that's the case, I'm cool with it :)

Regards,
Andrew Eddie
http://www.theartofjoomla.com - the art of becoming a Joomla developer

2009/5/29 Ron Severdia <ron.se...@community.joomla.org>:

[pollen8]

Personally I think there is a load of low hanging fruit we can make
more usable without having to change drastically how things work or
what terminology is used. Here's my list:

1) Shift & ctrl click for selecting items (be that content items
categories etc)

2) The white paper I proposed here : http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=502&t=267104

3) Drag and drop reordering of list items. (although there might be
issues with reordering table <tr>'s via JS)

4) Contextual right click menu. Right click on a article and you get a
circular menu with buttons to publish/unpublish delete, edt, move etc.
This avoids the horrid "check checkbox, scroll page up and to right
click button metaphore that Joomla currently employs.

[Amy Stephen]

Rob Clayburn is right, there are a number of little things that can be
done to improve the interface. I appreciate it that Andrew has been
involving people in feedback on these types of improvements over the
past few weeks.

I'm looking at 1.6 today and already see simplification in the
Administrator. Very impressed, developer team! It's really coming
together.

I have a suggestion that might be worth considering:
- Get rid of the Category Manager menu item.
- Move the Article Manager into the Components Menu.

Then, all Components handle the Category consistently and Components
are in one place.

To me, that makes more sense and helps simplify the interface a bit
further.

Thanks.