beez 2.0 and XHTML 5

[Angie Radtke]

Hi together,


The beez template based on HTML5 is nearly completed and checked in the
frontend-fixes trunk.
On Friday Mark told me that it wouldn�t be part of the core.

You might understand that I am not happy about this decision.

I am aware that Beez doesn�t fit in any of the selected templates
categories.

1. rhuk_milkyway with overrides to provide a sort of a 1.5-compatible
option.
2. A template suitable for personal blog sites.
3. A template suitable for small business or professional sites.
4. A barebones template suitable for using as a starting point for a custom
template.


The reason doesn�t lie in the Beez template itself but in the template
concept. The concept is based on pure visuality that refers to specific
target groups. This approach is understandable and reasonable if you assume
that a template is just a visual presentation (and template designers
haven�t got a lot of knowledge)
To be honest, Joomla templates can be much more than that.

Joomla templates have as structural as well as a technical nature. With a
technically well-designed template a knowledgeable web designer is able to
realize almost any design. This is due to the concept of separating content
from layout through by using style sheets. The real power of templates is
therefore not in the visual presentation but in their ability. It doesn�t
make sense to just differentiate templates only by visuality. They are
setting the groundwork for realizing creative ideas in the first place.

I tried to create such a technical base with Beez 1.5. The visual
presentation was secondary. Back then I chose the rather unappealing color
purple hoping that other template designers would use the code and create
more free standards-conforming templates for the community.

Wilco once sent out a robot to search for Beez code on the net and got many
positive results. It seems that users picked up Beez eagerly.

In addition many commercial templates based on the Beez code have been
developed. However there were only a few free templates. Apparently the
visual appearance wasn�t appealing enough; this is something that I can
easily modify.

Back then I already faced the problem of asserting and conveying the
importance of such a template with today�s knowledge I realize I should have
used a different approach. I kept using the term accessibility.
Unfortunately, the term accessibility isn�t very popular, especially in the
area of creative design. But accessibility is much more than simply
developing pages for people with disabilities. Semantic code that conforms
to a standard forms the basis for the technical functioning of an
application. Just think of Google (actually Google acts like a person with
disabilities on the Internet and loves the Beez code) or the presentation on
mobile devices.

I believe that today nobody questions the fact that the Beez code is a step
in the right direction.

Time has moved on, standards have been refined. The basis for homepages will
begin to change next year. HTML5 and Wai-Aria are just around the corner.

Drupal and Wordpress are already heading in this direction. Why not Joomla?
Is it because it doesn�t fit into the visual concept?

You can review the current state of the 1.6 Beez- development at
test5.run-digital.

The current Beez is mainly about HTML 5, accessible Javascript, and
Wai-Aria. They are technologies that will gain in importance over the next
years.

I would be delighted if you simply showed some more in-depth interest in the
subject manner

And now for something completely different: internal cooperation and
communication. I might not always be able to find the right words to express
myself. One the one hand there are cultural differences, on the other hand
there are my linguistic shortcomings. . Compared to native speakers I am
sometimes at a loss of words when trying to convice others Unfortunately
finding the right words is sometimes crucial to convincing other people. It�
s a pity. I wished that power wouldn�t always be exercised by way of
language but that people would really try to understand each other instead.

Looking back at the last two weeks I feel rather, excuse my wording -
put-upon. I was granted write access for the branch, checked in my code and
two weeks later I am cut out again with the explanation that Beez will not
be part of the core.

But I am wondering why my HTML is to be included in the core as as XHTML. To
me this appears to be rather pre-arranged. It feels like I�m doing the job
and someone else is carrying off the laurels.

I am very sad if this is the spirit of Open Source.

Greetings
Angie

[Ronildo Costa]

I complete agree with you, it is a bad decision.

Beez always has been a good template to study and understand. It could be the same for HTML5.

--
Roni Costa
blog: http://www.ronildo.com.br/blog
msn: ronild...@uol.com.br
skype: ronildo.costa
twitter: twitter.com/ronildo

--

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[Andrew Eddie]

Hi Angie.

What's the status of HTML5 and what browsers support it and to what degree?

Regards,
Andrew Eddie
http://www.theartofjoomla.com - the art of becoming a Joomla developer




2009/12/15 Angie Radtke <a.ra...@derauftritt.de>:

[Angie Radtke]

Hi Andrew,

Internet Explorer has some probs with it, but we can turn arround that.

Imagine he don't know the elements, the result is he does nothing.
He presents the code like it isn't in.
We can't style the elements.
But we can add the elements by JS in the dom. Then it works fine.

like

document.createElement('article'); etc.


Take a look at test5.run-digital.com and test it .-)

There are a lot of html5 sites online now.

examples you find here: http://html5gallery.com/

Bye Angie





-----Urspr�ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: joomla-...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:joomla-...@googlegroups.com]Im Auftrag von Andrew Eddie
Gesendet: Dienstag, 15. Dezember 2009 21:21
An: joomla-...@googlegroups.com
Betreff: Re: beez 2.0 and XHTML 5

Hi Angie.

What's the status of HTML5 and what browsers support it and to what degree?

Regards,
Andrew Eddie
http://www.theartofjoomla.com - the art of becoming a Joomla developer




2009/12/15 Angie Radtke <a.ra...@derauftritt.de>:
>
>

> �Hi together,

>
>
> The beez template based on HTML5 is nearly completed and checked in the
> frontend-fixes trunk.

> On Friday Mark told me that it wouldn�t be part of the core.

>
> You might understand that I am not happy about this decision.
>

> I am aware that Beez doesn�t fit in any of the selected templates

> categories.
>
> 1. rhuk_milkyway with overrides to provide a sort of a 1.5-compatible
> option.
> 2. A template suitable for personal blog sites.
> 3. A template suitable for small business or professional sites.
> 4. A barebones template suitable for using as a starting point for a
custom
> template.
>
>

> The reason doesn�t �lie in the Beez template itself but in the template

> concept. The concept is based on pure visuality that refers to specific
> target groups. This approach is understandable and reasonable if you
assume

> that a template is just a visual presentation �(and �template designers
> haven�t got a lot of knowledge)
> To be honest, Joomla templates can be �much more than that.

>
> Joomla templates have as structural as well as a technical nature. With a
> technically well-designed template a knowledgeable web designer is able to
> realize almost any design. This is due to the concept of separating
content
> from layout through by using style sheets. The real power of templates is

> therefore not in the visual presentation but in their ability. It doesn�t

> make sense to just differentiate templates only by visuality. They are
> setting the groundwork for realizing creative ideas in the first place.
>
> I tried to create such a technical base with Beez 1.5. The visual
> presentation was secondary. Back then I chose the rather unappealing color
> purple hoping that other template designers would use the code and create
> more free standards-conforming templates for the community.
>
> Wilco once sent out a robot to search for Beez code on the net and got
many
> positive results. It seems that users picked up Beez eagerly.
>
> In addition many commercial templates based on the Beez code have been
> developed. However there were only a few free templates. Apparently the

> visual appearance wasn�t appealing enough; this is something that I can

> easily modify.
>
> Back then I already faced the problem of asserting and conveying the

> importance of such a template with today�s knowledge I realize I should

have
> used a different approach. I kept using the term accessibility.

> Unfortunately, the term accessibility isn�t very popular, especially in

the
> area of creative design. But accessibility is much more than simply
> developing pages for people with disabilities. Semantic code that conforms

> to �a standard forms the basis for the technical functioning of an

> application. Just think of Google (actually Google acts like a person with
> disabilities on the Internet and loves the Beez code) or the presentation
on
> mobile devices.
>
> I believe that today nobody questions the fact that the Beez code is a
step
> in the right direction.
>
> Time has moved on, standards have been refined. The basis for homepages
will
> begin to change next year. HTML5 and Wai-Aria are just around the corner.
>
> Drupal and Wordpress are already heading in this direction. Why not
Joomla?

> Is it because it doesn�t fit into the visual concept?

>
> You can review the current state of the 1.6 Beez- development at
> test5.run-digital.
>
> The current Beez is mainly about HTML 5, accessible Javascript, and
> Wai-Aria. They are technologies that will gain in importance over the next
> years.
>
> I would be delighted if you simply showed some more in-depth interest in
the
> subject manner
>
> And now for something completely different: internal cooperation and
> communication. I might not always be able to find the right words to
express
> myself. One the one hand there are cultural differences, on the other hand
> there are my linguistic shortcomings. . Compared to native speakers I am
> sometimes at a loss of words when trying to convice others Unfortunately
> finding the right words is sometimes crucial to convincing other people.

It�
> s a pity. I wished that power wouldn�t always be exercised by way of

> language but that people would really try to understand each other
instead.
>
> Looking back at the last two weeks I feel rather, excuse my wording -
> put-upon. I was granted write access for the branch, checked in my code
and
> two weeks later I am cut out again with the explanation that Beez will not
> be part of the core.
>
> But I am wondering why my HTML is to be included in the core as as XHTML.
To

> me this appears to be rather pre-arranged. It feels like I�m doing the job

[Andrew Eddie]

Hi Angie.

Thanks but that wasn't quite what I was asking. Let me break it up.

What's the status of the HTML5 specification?

Which browsers and their versions do support HTML5?

How well do they support the HTML5 specification?

And one more questions as a newbie (I'm not up with HTML5). What's
the point of HTML5? For example, what does it have to offer to the
regular Joomla user or web site? Why is someone going to want to play
with HTML5?

Regards,
Andrew Eddie
http://www.theartofjoomla.com - the art of becoming a Joomla developer




2009/12/15 Angie Radtke <a.ra...@derauftritt.de>:
>
>
>

>  Hi Andrew,
>
>  Internet Explorer has some probs with it, but we can turn arround that.
>
> Imagine he don't know the elements, the result is he does nothing.
> He presents the code like it isn't in.
> We can't style the elements.
> But we can add the elements by JS in the dom. Then it works fine.
>
> like
>
> document.createElement('article'); etc.
>
>
> Take a look at test5.run-digital.com and test it .-)
>
> There are a lot of html5 sites online now.
>
> examples you find here: http://html5gallery.com/
>
> Bye Angie
>
>
>
>
>

> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----

> Von: joomla-...@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:joomla-...@googlegroups.com]Im Auftrag von Andrew Eddie
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 15. Dezember 2009 21:21
> An: joomla-...@googlegroups.com
> Betreff: Re: beez 2.0 and XHTML 5
>
>
> Hi Angie.
>
> What's the status of HTML5 and what browsers support it and to what degree?
>
> Regards,
> Andrew Eddie
> http://www.theartofjoomla.com - the art of becoming a Joomla developer
>
>
>
>
> 2009/12/15 Angie Radtke <a.ra...@derauftritt.de>:
>>
>>

>>  Hi together,
>>
>>
>> The beez template based on HTML5 is nearly completed and checked in the
>> frontend-fixes trunk.

>> On Friday Mark told me that it wouldn’t be part of the core.

>>
>> You might understand that I am not happy about this decision.
>>

>> I am aware that Beez doesn’t fit in any of the selected templates

>> categories.
>>
>> 1. rhuk_milkyway with overrides to provide a sort of a 1.5-compatible
>> option.
>> 2. A template suitable for personal blog sites.
>> 3. A template suitable for small business or professional sites.
>> 4. A barebones template suitable for using as a starting point for a
> custom
>> template.
>>
>>

>> The reason doesn’t  lie in the Beez template itself but in the template

>> concept. The concept is based on pure visuality that refers to specific
>> target groups. This approach is understandable and reasonable if you
> assume

>> that a template is just a visual presentation  (and  template designers
>> haven’t got a lot of knowledge)
>> To be honest, Joomla templates can be  much more than that.

>>
>> Joomla templates have as structural as well as a technical nature. With a
>> technically well-designed template a knowledgeable web designer is able to
>> realize almost any design. This is due to the concept of separating
> content
>> from layout through by using style sheets. The real power of templates is

>> therefore not in the visual presentation but in their ability. It doesn’t

>> make sense to just differentiate templates only by visuality. They are
>> setting the groundwork for realizing creative ideas in the first place.
>>
>> I tried to create such a technical base with Beez 1.5. The visual
>> presentation was secondary. Back then I chose the rather unappealing color
>> purple hoping that other template designers would use the code and create
>> more free standards-conforming templates for the community.
>>
>> Wilco once sent out a robot to search for Beez code on the net and got
> many
>> positive results. It seems that users picked up Beez eagerly.
>>
>> In addition many commercial templates based on the Beez code have been
>> developed. However there were only a few free templates. Apparently the

>> visual appearance wasn’t appealing enough; this is something that I can

>> easily modify.
>>
>> Back then I already faced the problem of asserting and conveying the

>> importance of such a template with today’s knowledge I realize I should

> have
>> used a different approach. I kept using the term accessibility.

>> Unfortunately, the term accessibility isn’t very popular, especially in

> the
>> area of creative design. But accessibility is much more than simply
>> developing pages for people with disabilities. Semantic code that conforms

>> to  a standard forms the basis for the technical functioning of an

>> application. Just think of Google (actually Google acts like a person with
>> disabilities on the Internet and loves the Beez code) or the presentation
> on
>> mobile devices.
>>
>> I believe that today nobody questions the fact that the Beez code is a
> step
>> in the right direction.
>>
>> Time has moved on, standards have been refined. The basis for homepages
> will
>> begin to change next year. HTML5 and Wai-Aria are just around the corner.
>>
>> Drupal and Wordpress are already heading in this direction. Why not
> Joomla?

>> Is it because it doesn’t fit into the visual concept?

>>
>> You can review the current state of the 1.6 Beez- development at
>> test5.run-digital.
>>
>> The current Beez is mainly about HTML 5, accessible Javascript, and
>> Wai-Aria. They are technologies that will gain in importance over the next
>> years.
>>
>> I would be delighted if you simply showed some more in-depth interest in
> the
>> subject manner
>>
>> And now for something completely different: internal cooperation and
>> communication. I might not always be able to find the right words to
> express
>> myself. One the one hand there are cultural differences, on the other hand
>> there are my linguistic shortcomings. . Compared to native speakers I am
>> sometimes at a loss of words when trying to convice others Unfortunately
>> finding the right words is sometimes crucial to convincing other people.

> It’
>> s a pity. I wished that power wouldn’t always be exercised by way of

>> language but that people would really try to understand each other
> instead.
>>
>> Looking back at the last two weeks I feel rather, excuse my wording -
>> put-upon. I was granted write access for the branch, checked in my code
> and
>> two weeks later I am cut out again with the explanation that Beez will not
>> be part of the core.
>>
>> But I am wondering why my HTML is to be included in the core as as XHTML.
> To

>> me this appears to be rather pre-arranged. It feels like I’m doing the job

[Wilco Jansen]

Hi Andrew,

Some intersting links have been blogged in september --> http://jfoobar.org/blog/306-html5-next-generation-web-markup-resources.html

Might be of help to get some additional information of the potentional of HTML 5

Cheers, Wilco

[Andrew Eddie]

Thanks Wilco.

But what's the executive summary?

Regards,
Andrew Eddie
http://www.theartofjoomla.com - the art of becoming a Joomla developer

2009/12/15 Wilco Jansen <jansen...@gmail.com>:

[Wilco Jansen]

HTML5 rocks and will rule within 2-3 years from now

[Gergo Erdosi]

Hi,

Personally I think the future is HTML 5, not XHTML 1 or 2. There isn't a real progress in the development of XHTML 2. And on the other side, it will be incompatible with XHTML 1.x when it comes out. HTML 5 has a lot of benefits and it is already supported by the latest browsers. And on the other side, HTML 5 can be used both as a declarative and as a scripting language. So it's important to support HTML 5. I would even consider moving Joomla! toward HTML 5 instead of XHTML, but it's too late for 1.6.

---
Gergo Erdosi (ge...@joomline.org)

Joomline - Business Solutions
http://joomline.org/

[G. D. Speer]

Pardon me chiming in from the cheap seats ...

 

We all want Joomla to be perceived as leading edge CMS technology.  Because of that, I fully agree that one of our template offerings in core should be a well engineered 'best practices' example of how to render HTML5 with accessibility compliance properly using the core MVC + overrides infrastructure.  Angie makes an excellent point in that the templates included in core serve to not only provide a visual/layout baseline that end users can adapt, but also a technological baseline of how to do a highly WCAG compliant, HTML5/CSS2 layout in an economy of code.  The aesthetics of Beez has been lacking in the past, but it's elegance was under the hood.   The same way end users copied the rhuk template and changed the skin, they copied Beez and used it as a working example of some of the template features and concepts not shown in the other core templates that could be copied and emulated.

 

While there are many many good templates out there that could be added to core, we don't want to bloat core and I'm in full agreement with the use cases that have been selected - business lean, blogger, 1.5 backwards.  I do believe that having one 'bleeding edge' template would do more for Joomla's image.  And by this I don't mean feature crazy and full of more module/widget positions than we can count.  I mean a technically sophisticated best-practices example of cononical HTML5 and whatever flavor of WCAG/508 we can implement to meet accessibility requirements that are growing in adoption around the world. 

 

The point is to be able to proclaim the marketing message "Yes we can" using our out of the box Joomla technology.  (No additional extensions, templates or excuses needed.)  Way too many organizations are shopping with HTML5 in their spec as a 'future-proofing' effort even though they really don't understand what that means in terms of browser compatibility or rendering features.  It's a box to check on the due diligence part of the technology selection process.

 

My 2 Rupees.

Duke

---

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.427 / Virus Database: 270.14.107/2564 - Release Date: 12/14/09 07:37:00

[Andrew Eddie]

Okay.

All the templates included *are* going to be bleeding edge. This is
in contrast to the 1.5 templates that had to carry the old baggage for
a while, which is why we needed Beez as an example of "stop
complaining about the core output - you can do whatever you want".
So, by default, the core templates *are* going to be wonderful
examples of how to do things. *All* the templates in the 1.6 core will
be doing what Beez did for 1.5 (except for the legacy Milkway). Beez
as a concept isn't dead - it's now the standard!

However, and playing devil's advocate, what I'm interested in, and
not yet hearing (because I really know very little about HTML5) is
what is HTML5 bringing to table for the community for the average
Joomla site? Are the template shops asking for it? Is it just "cool"
to be able to use? Is it "open your eyes Andrew, it's widely adopted
by all the major players and here are examples"? How does a Joomla
site benefit from a HTML5 example (and what are disadvantages of using
it - eg, non-compatible browsers)?

So treat the questions as if a newbie (which I am) or old school
template developer is asking the question. Ok, we get that HTML5 is
the best thing since sliced bread, but can someone describe "why"?
It's like if someone asks me why PHP5 is such a big deal - I could
write quite a few paragraphs on what's different and the benefits to
developers (more than it's just "cool" to use).

But I'd still like to know what browsers are supporting it (and how
well) and what is the state of the HTML5 spec. Those should be easy
questions to answer, no?

Regards,
Andrew Eddie
http://www.theartofjoomla.com - the art of becoming a Joomla developer

2009/12/15 G. D. Speer <gsp...@cortech.org>:

[Emerson Rocha Luiz]

The most used CMS in the world come with one assessible template with
HTML5 for developers know and want learn more soon? Why not?

I know: HTML5 will change, not all browsers offer full suport, but...
who will start to use HTML5 will be not end users or who don't know
the limitations.

Anyway I didn't see problems in at least on this template do not make
compatible with browsers that are so idiot that can't see through the
transparent .png.

And yes, who use Internet Explorer will know a bit less fast support
for HTML 5, and even if we need some years for HTML5 be really used,
if we think as a realists, Joomla 1.6 stabe will not be released so
soon, and also most part of users will not migrate fast for this
version. So when joomla 1.6 be really used for most users, HTML 5 will
be really more suported for good part of users.

And is good to remember that have sites for different proposes.
Governmental sites maybe will offer some support for IE6 for 20 years,
but at least some sites/blogs aimed for web developers ( and not only
these), people not only would like to use HTML 5 but would want make
everyone knows that 'hey, i'm doing this, and if you still using one
old browser for one site aimed for who follow new technology, you
didn't deserve read my content'.

Emerson da Rocha Luiz
eme...@webdesign.eng.br
http://www.fititnt.org | twitter @fititnt

On 15 Dec, 21:26, "G. D. Speer" <gsp...@cortech.org> wrote:
> Pardon me chiming in from the cheap seats ...
>
> We all want Joomla to be perceived as leading edge CMS technology.  Because of that, I fully agree that one of our template offerings in core should be a well engineered 'best practices' example of how to render HTML5 with accessibility compliance properly using the core MVC + overrides infrastructure.  Angie makes an excellent point in that the templates included in core serve to not only provide a visual/layout baseline that end users can adapt, but also a technological baseline of how to do a highly WCAG compliant, HTML5/CSS2 layout in an economy of code.  The aesthetics of Beez has been lacking in the past, but it's elegance was under the hood.   The same way end users copied the rhuk template and changed the skin, they copied Beez and used it as a working example of some of the template features and concepts not shown in the other core templates that could be copied and emulated.
>
> While there are many many good templates out there that could be added to core, we don't want to bloat core and I'm in full agreement with the use cases that have been selected - business lean, blogger, 1.5 backwards.  I do believe that having one 'bleeding edge' template would do more for Joomla's image.  And by this I don't mean feature crazy and full of more module/widget positions than we can count.  I mean a technically sophisticated best-practices example of cononical HTML5 and whatever flavor of WCAG/508 we can implement to meet accessibility requirements that are growing in adoption around the world.  
>
> The point is to be able to proclaim the marketing message "Yes we can" using our out of the box Joomla technology.  (No additional extensions, templates or excuses needed.)  Way too many organizations are shopping with HTML5 in their spec as a 'future-proofing' effort even though they really don't understand what that means in terms of browser compatibility or rendering features.  It's a box to check on the due diligence part of the technology selection process.
>
> My 2 Rupees.
> Duke
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gergo Erdosi" <ge...@joomline.org>
> To: <joomla-...@googlegroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 2:43 PM
> Subject: Re: beez 2.0 and XHTML 5
>
> Hi,
>
> Personally I think the future is HTML 5, not XHTML 1 or 2. There isn't a real progress in the development of XHTML 2. And on the other side, it will be incompatible with XHTML 1.x when it comes out. HTML 5 has a lot of benefits and it is already supported by the latest browsers. And on the other side, HTML 5 can be used both as a declarative and as a scripting language. So it's important to support HTML 5. I would even consider moving Joomla! toward HTML 5 instead of XHTML, but it's too late for 1.6.
>
> ---
> Gergo Erdosi (ge...@joomline.org)
>

> Joomline - Business Solutionshttp://joomline.org/

>
> On 15 Dec 2009, at 22:29, Andrew Eddie wrote:
>
> > Thanks Wilco.
>
> > But what's the executive summary?
>
> > Regards,
> > Andrew Eddie

> >http://www.theartofjoomla.com- the art of becoming a Joomla developer
>
> > 2009/12/15 Wilco Jansen <jansen.wi...@gmail.com>:

> >> Hi Andrew,
>
> >> Some intersting links have been blogged in september -->

> >>http://jfoobar.org/blog/306-html5-next-generation-web-markup-resource...

>
> >> Might be of help to get some additional information of the potentional of
> >> HTML 5
>
> >> Cheers, Wilco
>

> >> On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 10:12 PM, Andrew Eddie <mambob...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>> Hi Angie.
>
> >>> Thanks but that wasn't quite what I was asking.  Let me break it up.
>
> >>> What's the status of the HTML5 specification?
>
> >>> Which browsers and their versions do support HTML5?
>
> >>> How well do they support the HTML5 specification?
>
> >>> And one more questions as a newbie (I'm not up with HTML5).  What's
> >>> the point of HTML5?  For example, what does it have to offer to the
> >>> regular Joomla user or web site?  Why is someone going to want to play
> >>> with HTML5?
>
> >>> Regards,
> >>> Andrew Eddie

> >>>http://www.theartofjoomla.com- the art of becoming a Joomla developer
>
> >>> 2009/12/15 Angie Radtke <a.rad...@derauftritt.de>:

>
> >>>>  Hi Andrew,
>
> >>>>  Internet Explorer has some probs with it, but we can turn arround that.
>
> >>>> Imagine he don't know the elements, the result is he does nothing.
> >>>> He presents the code like it isn't in.
> >>>> We can't style the elements.
> >>>> But we can add the elements by JS in the dom. Then it works fine.
>
> >>>> like
>
> >>>> document.createElement('article'); etc.
>
> >>>> Take a look at test5.run-digital.com and test it .-)
>
> >>>> There are a lot of html5 sites online now.
>
> >>>> examples you find here:http://html5gallery.com/
>
> >>>> Bye Angie
>
> >>>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> >>>> Von: joomla-...@googlegroups.com
> >>>> [mailto:joomla-...@googlegroups.com]Im Auftrag von Andrew Eddie
> >>>> Gesendet: Dienstag, 15. Dezember 2009 21:21
> >>>> An: joomla-...@googlegroups.com
> >>>> Betreff: Re: beez 2.0 and XHTML 5
>
> >>>> Hi Angie.
>
> >>>> What's the status of HTML5 and what browsers support it and to what
> >>>> degree?
>
> >>>> Regards,
> >>>> Andrew Eddie

> >>>>http://www.theartofjoomla.com- the art of becoming a Joomla developer
>
> >>>> 2009/12/15 Angie Radtke <a.rad...@derauftritt.de>:

> ...
>
> read more »

[Ron Severdia]

I don't think there's any disagreement on how nice HTML5 will be. No
doubt about it. But the operative word is *will*. The spec hasn't even
been ratified yet (the discussion is very heated and the "last call"
for input status may take a while) and it will be a while after that
point where browsers and then users will get on the bandwagon.

Just because Adobe releases a new version of Flash doesn't mean Flash
developers can go using the features of the latest plug-in right away.
It usually takes about a year from that point before adoption is wide
enough to justify using it. Adobe knows that and Flash developers know
that.

It's not well supported, doesn't degrade gracefully, and won't likely
be for the next year, especially in IE. You can see the list of
support by the various engines here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_layout_engines_(HTML5)

...and the specific implementations...

http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Implementations_in_Web_browsers

For IE, it won't even be supported until IE9, which is in the early
stages of development and won't likely be released until the latter
half of 2010.

So, as a developer, what would be a rock solid reason for developing a
site in HTML5 in the next six months? With all the workarounds and
fallbacks, you could spend far less time developing in XHTML Strict
(the spec discussed and agreed on 6 months ago for this release) and
have a more stable site.

I think there's a time and place for HTML5 and CSS3. I'd love to see
both, but it's just not with this release. Since we're talking about
releasing twice a year, there's a 1.7 release in the fall and the
timing makes a little more sense. We can still say what I think the
sense here is "We're ahead of the curve" by figuring out a way to add
it then.

[Andrew Eddie]

Hrm, ok, that sheds a little light on the subject. Seems the
implementation is sporadic at best and none of the *really good* stuff
is quite ready yet (at least, things that start making life
interesting for a developer).

If I can draw a parallel with the code, I think this would be
equivalent to including a PHP5.3 plugin or component or something just
to demonstrate some cool new feature (and there is no doubt PHP5.3
*is* the future, etc, and so on). There is nothing wrong in doing
that but it doesn't really add value because of the limited uptake of
PHP5.3 at present.

Happy to be shown the error of my thinking though.

Regards,
Andrew Eddie
http://www.theartofjoomla.com - the art of becoming a Joomla developer




2009/12/15 Ron Severdia <ron.se...@joomla.org>:

[Andrew Eddie]

Ok, for reference, ratification of the standard doesn't look like it
will happen before the end of next year, more likely 2012.

Regards,
Andrew Eddie
http://www.theartofjoomla.com - the art of becoming a Joomla developer

2009/12/15 Andrew Eddie <mamb...@gmail.com>:

[G. D. Speer]

My point was strictly marketing bragging rights 6 months from now when
people care for no particular reason except non-technicals need benchmarks
that they associate with 'modern' technologies v. 3 year old technologies.

I cannot think of a feature I can execute in HTML 5 that I cannot execute in
XHTML + a bit a javascript.
The point made about standards adoption - I don't know of a browser release
that waited for standards adoption to begin marketing their compatibility.
This is a primary reason, besides corporate arrogance, why IE is the pain in
our collective side that it is. They roll out their 'compliant browser'
while the standard is still a glint in the W3C's eye and because they met
the spec. 'at the time' they therefore claim that they met the spec. This
history WILL repeat itself and it just isn't our issue.

Every execution of HTML5 done by a competant designer will have either
progressive enhancement or gracefull degradation as part of the scheme. The
arguement that HTML5 does display on a non-HTML5 browser as a reason to not
use HTML5 is as spurious as saying a site that uses JS programing will not
display on a browser with JS disabled. Every rigorous template deployed has
some form of IE conditional css. A well executed HTML5 template will have a
similar feature sniffer and a default behaviour when the feature is not
available. This isn't a new concept - it's an age-old discussion, only the
revision numbers have changed.

I accept and have seen how 'bleeding edge' our core templates have become.
No disagreement that our state of the art is dramatically improved.

The only two issues that still raise my eyebrows are ones that affect
Joomla's saleability in the small business and govenment grant non-profits
world, and that is all. In an old conversation we went in circles about
accessibility - there is no single simple answer - there are many shades of
grey concerning what compliance means and whether Core ENABLES a compliant
result. With template overrides, there is no question that a designer
implementer can execute at ANY level of compliance. With template
overrides, there is no question that an HTML 5/CSS 3 output can be generated
that will pass validation. The only issue is the subtle distinction on the
RFQ about whether the underlying CMS IS compliant v. can be made to be
compliant and while the difference is a few lines of code, to govenment
bureucrats and non-sophisticated buyers of technology, the difference
between those two check boxes can tip a purchase decision. We all know how
subtle the difference is, but in the world of non-techies doing grant
compliance, this issue is whether the box is checked or not.

Is this subtlety worth a significant programming effort to make one of the
templates render with an HTML5 doctype that renders a cool shadow in one
browser and degrades in all the rest? I don't know. Is the ability to
check the box that out-of-the-box joomla has a template that meets WCAG2 as
a basis for certifying that the product is capable of meeting WCAG2 without
further 'modification' (subject to a designer not messing it up while
personalizing and all the grey areas of interpreting the depth to which it's
implemented.)

Revisiting the first line of my prior note - this isn't about technology.
From my viewpoint it's solely about 'Checking the Box' for marketing
purposes. There is no other benefit besides "bragging rights". Anyone can
build their own template if they really NEED one of these features in the
deliverable and find HTML5 progressive enhancement of a mootools solution is
more expedient than the usual XHTML with mootools designed for a larger
browser audience.

If we choose not to go there, we'll all still build great cutting edge
websites with an excellent comprehensive CMS solution. In a few cases some
implementers might lose some business because they can't check a box that a
competing project can and the buyers perceive that the box is important to
making a wise, more 'future-proof' decision.

HTH

>>>>> -----Urspr�ngliche Nachricht-----

>>>>> Von: joomla-...@googlegroups.com
>>>>> [mailto:joomla-...@googlegroups.com]Im Auftrag von Andrew Eddie
>>>>> Gesendet: Dienstag, 15. Dezember 2009 21:21
>>>>> An: joomla-...@googlegroups.com
>>>>> Betreff: Re: beez 2.0 and XHTML 5
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Angie.
>>>>>
>>>>> What's the status of HTML5 and what browsers support it and to what
>>>>> degree?
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Andrew Eddie
>>>>> http://www.theartofjoomla.com - the art of becoming a Joomla developer
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2009/12/15 Angie Radtke <a.ra...@derauftritt.de>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi together,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The beez template based on HTML5 is nearly completed and checked in
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> frontend-fixes trunk.

>>>>>> On Friday Mark told me that it wouldn�t be part of the core.

>>>>>>
>>>>>> You might understand that I am not happy about this decision.
>>>>>>

>>>>>> I am aware that Beez doesn�t fit in any of the selected templates

>>>>>> categories.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. rhuk_milkyway with overrides to provide a sort of a 1.5-compatible
>>>>>> option.
>>>>>> 2. A template suitable for personal blog sites.
>>>>>> 3. A template suitable for small business or professional sites.
>>>>>> 4. A barebones template suitable for using as a starting point for a
>>>>> custom
>>>>>> template.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>

>>>>>> The reason doesn�t lie in the Beez template itself but in the

>>>>>> template
>>>>>> concept. The concept is based on pure visuality that refers to
>>>>>> specific
>>>>>> target groups. This approach is understandable and reasonable if you
>>>>> assume
>>>>>> that a template is just a visual presentation (and template
>>>>>> designers

>>>>>> haven�t got a lot of knowledge)

>>>>>> To be honest, Joomla templates can be much more than that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Joomla templates have as structural as well as a technical nature.
>>>>>> With
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> technically well-designed template a knowledgeable web designer is
>>>>>> able
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> realize almost any design. This is due to the concept of separating
>>>>> content
>>>>>> from layout through by using style sheets. The real power of
>>>>>> templates
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> therefore not in the visual presentation but in their ability. It

>>>>>> doesn�t

>>>>>> make sense to just differentiate templates only by visuality. They
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> setting the groundwork for realizing creative ideas in the first
>>>>>> place.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I tried to create such a technical base with Beez 1.5. The visual
>>>>>> presentation was secondary. Back then I chose the rather unappealing
>>>>>> color
>>>>>> purple hoping that other template designers would use the code and
>>>>>> create
>>>>>> more free standards-conforming templates for the community.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wilco once sent out a robot to search for Beez code on the net and
>>>>>> got
>>>>> many
>>>>>> positive results. It seems that users picked up Beez eagerly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In addition many commercial templates based on the Beez code have
>>>>>> been
>>>>>> developed. However there were only a few free templates. Apparently
>>>>>> the

>>>>>> visual appearance wasn�t appealing enough; this is something that I

>>>>>> can
>>>>>> easily modify.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Back then I already faced the problem of asserting and conveying the

>>>>>> importance of such a template with today�s knowledge I realize I

>>>>>> should
>>>>> have
>>>>>> used a different approach. I kept using the term accessibility.

>>>>>> Unfortunately, the term accessibility isn�t very popular, especially

>>>>>> in
>>>>> the
>>>>>> area of creative design. But accessibility is much more than simply
>>>>>> developing pages for people with disabilities. Semantic code that
>>>>>> conforms
>>>>>> to a standard forms the basis for the technical functioning of an
>>>>>> application. Just think of Google (actually Google acts like a person
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> disabilities on the Internet and loves the Beez code) or the
>>>>>> presentation
>>>>> on
>>>>>> mobile devices.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I believe that today nobody questions the fact that the Beez code is
>>>>>> a
>>>>> step
>>>>>> in the right direction.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Time has moved on, standards have been refined. The basis for
>>>>>> homepages
>>>>> will
>>>>>> begin to change next year. HTML5 and Wai-Aria are just around the
>>>>>> corner.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Drupal and Wordpress are already heading in this direction. Why not
>>>>> Joomla?

>>>>>> Is it because it doesn�t fit into the visual concept?

>>>>>>
>>>>>> You can review the current state of the 1.6 Beez- development at
>>>>>> test5.run-digital.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The current Beez is mainly about HTML 5, accessible Javascript, and
>>>>>> Wai-Aria. They are technologies that will gain in importance over the
>>>>>> next
>>>>>> years.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would be delighted if you simply showed some more in-depth interest
>>>>>> in
>>>>> the
>>>>>> subject manner
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And now for something completely different: internal cooperation and
>>>>>> communication. I might not always be able to find the right words to
>>>>> express
>>>>>> myself. One the one hand there are cultural differences, on the other
>>>>>> hand
>>>>>> there are my linguistic shortcomings. . Compared to native speakers I
>>>>>> am
>>>>>> sometimes at a loss of words when trying to convice others
>>>>>> Unfortunately
>>>>>> finding the right words is sometimes crucial to convincing other
>>>>>> people.

>>>>> It�
>>>>>> s a pity. I wished that power wouldn�t always be exercised by way of

>>>>>> language but that people would really try to understand each other
>>>>> instead.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Looking back at the last two weeks I feel rather, excuse my wording -
>>>>>> put-upon. I was granted write access for the branch, checked in my
>>>>>> code
>>>>> and
>>>>>> two weeks later I am cut out again with the explanation that Beez
>>>>>> will
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> be part of the core.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But I am wondering why my HTML is to be included in the core as as
>>>>>> XHTML.
>>>>> To

>>>>>> me this appears to be rather pre-arranged. It feels like I�m doing

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Jennifer Marriott]

Well in light of this conversation, can we get an update on the
current templates that are slated for release with 1.6? Perhaps a
breakdown of where they are, how easily they are going to be able to
be brought up to HTML5?

HTML5 works in current browsers. And is being adopted quickly.
Perhaps before everyone makes a judgment call on Beez they should test
it http://test5.run-digital.com/

It is certainly more than what we have to test with at this time as
opposed to the non-existent templates that have been talked about at
length:

2. A template suitable for personal blog sites.
3. A template suitable for small business or professional sites.
4. A barebones template suitable for using as a starting point for a
custom
template.

Nice to see my favorite css framework inside of the atomic template
(not sure which of the above this one is for: blog, business or
barebones). Blueprint is an excellent choice.

Jenny

> Andrew Eddiehttp://www.theartofjoomla.com- the art of becoming a Joomla developer

> >>http://www.theartofjoomla.com- the art of becoming a Joomla developer
>
> >> 2009/12/15 Wilco Jansen <jansen.wi...@gmail.com>:

> >>> Hi Andrew,
>
> >>> Some intersting links have been blogged in september -->
>

> >>>http://jfoobar.org/blog/306-html5-next-generation-web-markup-resource...

>
> >>> Might be of help to get some additional information of the potentional
> >>> of
> >>> HTML 5
>
> >>> Cheers, Wilco
>

> >>> On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 10:12 PM, Andrew Eddie <mambob...@gmail.com>

> >>> wrote:
>
> >>>> Hi Angie.
>
> >>>> Thanks but that wasn't quite what I was asking. Let me break it up.
>
> >>>> What's the status of the HTML5 specification?
>

> ...
>
> read more »

[Andrew Eddie]

2009/12/15 Jennifer Marriott <marpomu...@gmail.com>:

>
> HTML5 works in current browsers.  And is being adopted quickly.
> Perhaps before everyone makes a judgment call on Beez they should test
> it http://test5.run-digital.com/

Sorry if this is showing my ignorance, but what bits of the template
is HTML5 responsible for?

Regards,
Andrew Eddie
http://www.theartofjoomla.com - the art of becoming a Joomla developer

[Ronildo Costa]

Andrew asked why should we use html5 and why is it better...

Andrew, I think (it is just my opinion), it's not just about what is better or not, we are talking about semantic, a lot work has been done to make the developers life easier, one of these things is HTML5.

Why it would be better?? no more plugins for videos, audio.. these kind things... I don't want to list all these things here. A quick search you can find the cool stuffs that are coming with HTML5.

I think this is the same discuss when xHTML appear to us, a lot of guys were saying.. why should I use this new things if I already know how to built a website? Well, the time has come and xHTML was very important but the future is HTML5.

In my opinion, if including companies like google are starting to use it, why should we wait to use?? The new version of Gears will use HTML5 canvas, a cool new feature.

http://almaer.com/blog/gears-as-a-bleeding-edge-html-5-implementation

Also I think, Beez it's a wonderful template but is not a default template... so I think we should show it more like something cool that we can do with Joomla.

HTML5 is supported by all the nice browsers (Firefox, Opera, Safari, Chrome), if we always have to wait for IE, we should be using png yet, because IE6 still here.

--
Roni Costa
blog: http://www.ronildo.com.br/blog
msn: ronild...@uol.com.br
skype: ronildo.costa
twitter: twitter.com/ronildo

[Andrew Eddie]

I think it's probably best, at the moment, if Angie can walk us (or at
least me) through the highlights of the template. The penny just
hasn't dropped yet for me :)

Regards,
Andrew Eddie
http://www.theartofjoomla.com - the art of becoming a Joomla developer

2009/12/15 Ronildo Costa <ron...@gmail.com>:

[KenMcD]

@Angie,

I would like to test/play-with/evaluate Beez 2.0.
Assume others would also like to use it, test it, and work with it.
I think I found it in the SVN, but what I found is missing CSS and
image files.

Could you *please* post a Beez 2.0 download package somewhere?

Thank You!

[Andrea Tarr]

I agree that having an HTML5 template with overrides would be good for
Joomla.

Andy

Andrea Tarr

Sent from mobile

>>>>>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----

>>>>>> Von: joomla-...@googlegroups.com
>>>>>> [mailto:joomla-...@googlegroups.com]Im Auftrag von Andrew
>>>>>> Eddie
>>>>>> Gesendet: Dienstag, 15. Dezember 2009 21:21
>>>>>> An: joomla-...@googlegroups.com
>>>>>> Betreff: Re: beez 2.0 and XHTML 5
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Angie.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What's the status of HTML5 and what browsers support it and to
>>>>>> what
>>>>>> degree?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Andrew Eddie
>>>>>> http://www.theartofjoomla.com - the art of becoming a Joomla
>>>>>> developer
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2009/12/15 Angie Radtke <a.ra...@derauftritt.de>:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi together,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The beez template based on HTML5 is nearly completed and
>>>>>>> checked in
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> frontend-fixes trunk.

>>>>>>> On Friday Mark told me that it wouldn’t be part of the core.

>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You might understand that I am not happy about this decision.
>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> I am aware that Beez doesn’t fit in any of the selected

>>>>>>> templates
>>>>>>> categories.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1. rhuk_milkyway with overrides to provide a sort of a 1.5-
>>>>>>> compatible
>>>>>>> option.
>>>>>>> 2. A template suitable for personal blog sites.
>>>>>>> 3. A template suitable for small business or professional sites.
>>>>>>> 4. A barebones template suitable for using as a starting point
>>>>>>> for a
>>>>>> custom
>>>>>>> template.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> The reason doesn’t lie in the Beez template itself but in the

>>>>>>> template
>>>>>>> concept. The concept is based on pure visuality that refers to
>>>>>>> specific
>>>>>>> target groups. This approach is understandable and reasonable
>>>>>>> if you
>>>>>> assume
>>>>>>> that a template is just a visual presentation (and template
>>>>>>> designers

>>>>>>> haven’t got a lot of knowledge)

>>>>>>> To be honest, Joomla templates can be much more than that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Joomla templates have as structural as well as a technical
>>>>>>> nature.
>>>>>>> With
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> technically well-designed template a knowledgeable web
>>>>>>> designer is
>>>>>>> able
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> realize almost any design. This is due to the concept of
>>>>>>> separating
>>>>>> content
>>>>>>> from layout through by using style sheets. The real power of
>>>>>>> templates
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> therefore not in the visual presentation but in their ability.
>>>>>>> It

>>>>>>> doesn’t

>>>>>>> visual appearance wasn’t appealing enough; this is somet

>>>>>>> hing that I
>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>> easily modify.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Back then I already faced the problem of asserting and
>>>>>>> conveying the

>>>>>>> importance of such a template with today’s knowledge I r

>>>>>>> ealize I
>>>>>>> should
>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> used a different approach. I kept using the term accessibility.

>>>>>>> Unfortunately, the term accessibility isn’t very popular

>>>>>>> Is it because it doesn’t fit into the visual concept?

>>>>>> It’
>>>>>>> s a pity. I wished that power wouldn’t always be exercis

>>>>>>> ed by way of
>>>>>>> language but that people would really try to understand each
>>>>>>> other
>>>>>> instead.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Looking back at the last two weeks I feel rather, excuse my
>>>>>>> wording -
>>>>>>> put-upon. I was granted write access for the branch, checked
>>>>>>> in my
>>>>>>> code
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> two weeks later I am cut out again with the explanation that
>>>>>>> Beez
>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> be part of the core.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But I am wondering why my HTML is to be included in the core
>>>>>>> as as
>>>>>>> XHTML.
>>>>>> To
>>>>>>> me this appears to be rather pre-arranged. It feels like

>>>>>>> I’m doing

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[Ron Severdia]

What's to stop someone like Angie from making an HTML5 template and
using it in Joomla? If the output is accessible and semantic, what's
the gain? Bragging rights? We could add an HTML5 template in the core
in 6 months (probably longer) and still have that. But you can create
an HTML5 template today if you wanted to.

I think people are getting caught up in the *idea* of HTML5 instead of
framing HTML5 in the context of Joomla. If you're that jazzed about
HTML5, there's nothing stopping you from making your own. If you're
crazy about jQuery, there's nothing to stop you from using that
either. But check the links I pasted above. The reality is that HTML5
is not ready for primetime and, the much bigger issue, the world isn't
ready for HTML5 yet.

@Jennifer I added Blueprint to the Atomic template and the Blueprint
team is helping put that template together. Andy Miller offered to do
the small business template a while back and PICnet offered to do the
personal/blogger site. All are in progress.

[Angie Radtke]

Hi Grergo,

>There isn't a real progress in the development of XHTML 2.

Not only that. The W3C rejected it in spring.

Bye Angie

[Angie Radtke]

> We could add an HTML5 template in the core
in 6 months (probably longer) and still have that.

.
It is finished yet. I haven't seen the other once.

Bye Angie

[JM Simonet]

+1
I want to learn. ;)

>@Angie,
>
>I would like to test/play-with/evaluate Beez 2.0.
>Assume others would also like to use it, test it, and work with it.
>I think I found it in the SVN, but what I found is missing CSS and
>image files.
>
>Could you *please* post a Beez 2.0 download package somewhere?
>
>Thank You!
>
>

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[Angie Radtke]

Hi Andrew,

first I want to explain my motivation.

1. The first one we have heard already. The users can play around with it,
they can learn how it works.
2. The Html 5 working group around Ian Hickson made a very good Job until
now.
Joomla is a powerful system and it has the might to support the HTML 5
working group by using the code already.
I think Joomla can have an influence how the web will change. Maybe it's
naively, but I think it's worth an attempt.
There is a difference between using php 5.3 as HTML 5. If php 5.3 isn't
avialable - nothing works. That's not the case with HTML5.
It is a conscious decision of te user to use it or not. If joomla is
written in PHP 5.3 the user can't
decide if he will use it or not.

3. I wrote you a mail 2 week ago. I asked you if there is a possibility to
render the template params a little bit earlier.
Why? Imagine I have in the backend the option to choose between HTML 5
and Xhtml.
If the params are rendered earlier it will work. That would be wonderful.
Not only for my need. The template construct itselfs gets more powerful
then.

4. Now to the beez features :
It's not only the HTML5 stuff.

JS will be get more and more important. Not only for visual effects.
Most of all JS developers aren't able to make there applications
accessible. Beez wants to show how it works.
In beez the website-viewer has the option to select what part of the
content, he wants to see.
This is very helpful if you have got sites with lot of information. The
websiteowner can choose which modules are open per default and which one are
closed.

Wai-aria is based on working JS.
It is really powerful.Here in germany it is already used by the goverment
railway site. However intercation between users and Application is necessary
it is very helpful.

5. SEO.
In the backend Beez offers the option to display the navigation before or
after content.


I hope I can clear some questions.

But I don't loose the feeling that some people are playing with there power.

bye Angie

[G. D. Speer]

Hi Ron -

Perhaps the point of my note was missed. Your comments are all correct and
perfectly valid.
I thought I said clearly that anyone can execute anything they want - the
Core technology
enables any template to be built with any bells and whistles someone wants
to hang on it.

This isn't about the technology.

> what's
> the gain? Bragging rights?

Yes, that's exactly what I said - it's marketing perception - it's
packaging - it's non-technical
bureaucrats checking off a box during a compliance audit.

There is no change needed to the core technology - yes, we can install an
HTML5 template on a
1.6 installation and have the technical result of a semantic valid HTML5
renderer conforming to it's doctype.

So, what's the point of the conversation? In a typical RFP there are
frequently used compliance
questions concerning the proposed technology. They show up in one
consultant's article about 'best practices'
and before long become an industry accepted guideline for what to put in
your RFP when you go
buy web technology. There's no logic - it's lemings following the lead
leming over the cliff.

HTML5 is becoming a touchstone for identifying this years version of
identifying a 'current' product, whether the features
get used or not. (So is Ajax - a recent site had to certify it's Ajax
capabilities even though it didn't have a
single form field or dynamically updated content without a page refresh
anywhere in the site. Logical? No!
A check-the-box mentality? Sure. On review they looked for and verified
the approved javascript
was in the linked files even though there wasn't a single call to the Ajax
routines in any page of the site.)

Here is a paraphrase of a typical compliance survey:

Is the proposed software a current commercially-available product?
[ ] yes, [ ] no
If yes, does the current release of the software being proposed ...
meet the functionality and accessibility requirements and guidelines as
stated in the RFP -
[ ] fully compliant - achieves specifications without any adaptation or
modification
[ ] capable of compliance - minor modification, adaptation or enhancement
is required and will be provided by the vendor
[ ] not capable of compliance - the commercial release of the software does
not meet the requirement
and/or substantial alteration, modification, integration or customization is
required (see definitions).

Today we are 'capable of compliance' and footnotes and explainations are
required concerning just how must 'adaptation'
is necessary to meet full compliance. In a competition where some offerings
can check box 1 and many others check box 2,
the procurement teams don't bother considering any box 2 solutions over a
box 1 solution. On audit, it will be a non-defensible
(wrong) decision, no matter how trivial the effort is to 'add on your own
template'. Any add-on needed to meet the spec, no
matter how trivial the process or how regularly it is adopted and maintained
in the community is nevertheless a vendor modification or
an integration and must be disclosed as such.

(It's like check boxes on a tax form - whether you agree with the underlying
logic of the question and whether it accomplishes a rational goal, you tax
return is not complete until you check a box and consequences flow from the
box that's checked, regardless applicability of the topic.)

The point is that someday, strictly for marketing reasons, it will be
helpful if the out-of-the-box product, some 1.6.x release, could allow
designers to check the "fully compliant" box.

This response is long and detailed not because I'm advocating for a higher
level of priority than has been set. I'm just trying to educate those who
seem to not be aware of or sensitive to these marketing issues that they
simply do exist and that a portion of our user base is affected in a
non-trivial way by these choices that have a broader impact than just being
'the right technical choice'. To certain non-profits spending state and
federal grant funds and undergoing county and agency audits that examine
things like 508 compliance or the adequacy of their 'future-proof'
purchasing criteria, the issue is not how well you execute the compliance or
whether the resulting site is actually considered usable or accessible, and
so on - it's whether the boxes were checked and some purchasing agent
verified technical compliance of the software platform during the due
diligence phase. It's not about whether the boxes make intellectual sense
or really achieve a valid technological objective. It's that state sales
taxes are being spent and some county worker has to come up with some form
of objective checklist to make it appear that those funds are being spent on
what casual observers might agree constitutes 'current' technology. It
keeps their decision process simple, directionally correct, and transparent
to the community.

Put one CSS3 feature in one core template with appropriate degradation and
Joomla can claim it's a CSS3 product. HTML5 is not quite as easy, but
Angie's suggestion of a param that controls rendering of XML closing tags as
a step toward html5 isn't a bad thing to begin thinking about - I personally
prefer the well ordered XML structure and like explicit instead of implied
block element closures so I wouldn't turn it on, but it's nice to 'check the
box' that we have the capability.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Severdia" <ron.se...@joomla.org>
To: "Joomla! CMS Development" <joomla-...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 10:14 PM
Subject: Re: beez 2.0 and XHTML 5

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>

[Emerson Rocha Luiz]

Angie Radtke said:

"I think Joomla can have an influence how the web will change. Maybe
it's
naively, but I think it's worth an attempt."

I Fully agree with him. I didint see best way to improve the speed on
real implementation of HTML5 than the Most used CMS helps ( for who
want, and not by setting as a default) than most used CMS do it.


Also, remember that even now have some ways to emulate support to
HTML5 with javascript, even on IE. And in 6 months, or even one year
that Joomla 1.6 will be a bit more used, most part of browsers will
have a better support, and even IE will have better javascript to
emulate HTML5 support. So, even who uses HTML5 will not lose some
browsers if want.

And important: what we are discuting here will be not for now, but for
the furure. Thinking that HTML5 is 'not so good now' will be different
than when Joomla 1.6 will REALLY start to be used.



--

Emerson da Rocha Luiz
eme...@webdesign.eng.br
http://www.fititnt.org | twitter @fititnt

[Marco Barbosa]

+1 here

HTML5 is ready to use now.

Joomla! needs to be cutting edge. Google Wave uses HTML5, why not a
Joomla! template?

[Marco Giorgetti]

On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 1:27 PM, Emerson Rocha Luiz <fit...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Angie Radtke said:
>
> "I think  Joomla can have an influence how the web will change. Maybe
> it's
> naively, but I think it's  worth an attempt."

I agree on that: it's worth an attempt at least!


--
Marco Giorgetti
http://www.marcogiorgetti.com

[Jennifer Marriott]

I want to add that the main reason why I think Beez 2.0 should be
included in core is because it is actually a complete offering right
now. It is complete enough for people to work with and more
importantly test 1.6 with, and we have a long standing active
contributor (Angie) willing to stand behind her work and support it,
and support the JBS as she has for the run with Beez in 1.5. To me
having a good solid template to work with to test is more important
than the whole HTML5 argument.

Beez 2.0 is a template I will most likely consider as I have
considered Beez 1.0 for 1.5. It is the easiest template in 1.5 for
people to customize and has the most flexibility of use - it can be
used for any kind of site from blog to business. Beez 2.0 is stacking
up to be exactly that again, as well as being forward thinking. I
don't think bragging rights has anything to do with it personally. It
is quality (not to mention complete work) from a quality long standing
contributor. It is modern, accessible, stable and good-looking.
Could someone on the "no" side of the argument perhaps give some
insight into the reasons why they are saying no to to Beez 2.0 being
included? Can anyone point out any problems with the template that
cannot be fixed?

As I said before I am really happy to see my favorite CSS framework -
Blueprint - included in the Atomic template, and looking forward to
see how it is all going to work out.

[Nadir]

+ 1 here

Update or die.

[Robert]

Hi,

surely, it is not a suprise that I vote for including beez 2.0 in the
core distribution.

As we made beez initially, was this very hard work and it takes months
to bring it to a point that is was good for the core distribution. At
the end, beez was a synonym for a future orientated concept and
template. It shows people what is possible with this new functionality
"template override". People could see what a **magic** stuff the
developers put in the core. (as some people know, we had a basic
override functionality also in J1.0 but nearly nobody has used this)

For me personally is this the main reason to vote for including beez
2.0 in the core distribution. Show people what is possible!

As I have read the posting in this discussion I ask myself, why we
need three templates with only a different visual presentation. Must
we do the template designers work?

--Robert

[Andrew Eddie]

Thanks Angie.

I understand the motivations, that's not a problem. I'm still hazy on
the technical details and why it's different.

What I suggest is this, and this is the same as for Andy Tarr's
backend accessible template (and really, for anyone else wanting to do
a template), is that we put Beez in a branch and you keep it up to
date as the core output changes. The idea is that most of the effort
goes into making the "core" layouts as good as possible so that *none*
of the templates are correcting for compliance issues (other than
strange edge classes).

Then, we make a call on the state of readiness of any templates that
people are working on at the time we are assembling Beta. We can't
include everybody's template (or extension for that matter) in the
core, but we might be able to look at some sort of "bundles" thing for
stuff that missed Beta, but was ready by the time stable comes out and
that could extend to anyone (language, template, module, plugin,
component).

So, Angie, do you have a branch available to work in? If not, I'll
have it arranged for you.

Regards,
Andrew Eddie
http://www.theartofjoomla.com - the art of becoming a Joomla developer

2009/12/16 Angie Radtke <a.ra...@derauftritt.de>:

[Angie Radtke]

Hi Andrew,
our message sounds quite arrogant in my ears an. This is
not the question of including everybodys templates - this is the
question of including Beez 2.0. Beez 1.0 was one of the elements that
made joomla 1.5 a success, and beez 2.0 in leeding edge technology
will do the same.

Do you really think I'll do a lot of work for the completion of Beez
2.0 and wait for your mercy to decide, whether you'll take it or not?
Why should this decision wait to some unknown date?

And let me say one thing very clearly: This discussion about Beez 2.0
is not in the first place about html5. What is really at stake is
accessibility and WCAG2.

I wish we all would cooperate in an objective and constructive way.

bye Angie

P.S. Did you read the second part of my first mail?

[Andrew Eddie]

Hi Angie.

I'm sorry but the broken english was a bit hard to understand what you
meant - and I don't think you meant what I read literally ;)

There are a number of extensions that people are working on which
*could* be considered for 1.6 providing they are ready when we
finalise the Beta. Kyle is working on a plugin, Andy T. on an
accessible template for the admin, and there are a few others as well
from myself and Ron. If they are done, then they can be considered by
the PLT for inclusion but the PLT might also decide to delay their
inclusion or possibly do something else with them. We are working on
a system to dramatically reduce the release life-cycle so we don't
have to strain over what goes in and what doesn't as much as for the
current 2 yr cycle.

This is process we are moving into where people can work on anything
they like and they can ask for it to be submitted in the core in
general.

Angie, in your particular case I would ask that you assist Andy T.,
Ron and Mark to make the core layouts as solid as possible first - as
a priority. It would be silly to have substandard work in the core
that Beez has to override. That's where the cooperation part come in.
The reality is Beez currently can't be ready for inclusion because,
quite frankly, we haven't finished the layouts or finalised the
styling. Except for the heavy refactoring I'm doing, almost all the
other work is being done in branches so you are being treated the same
as everyone one else.

What I want to see is the core layouts to be as compliant as possible
out-of-the-box and addressing accessibility and WCAG2 compliance to
whatever degree is practical. Andy T. is doing exactly the same thing
with the Admin template. Where possible, we are adding the majority
of things directly to the core so that Andy only has to worry about
things that don't fit. The same should apply to you for Beez. But
when we finish all the Beta-blockers (we will publish that soon), any
other contributed extension on the nice-to-have list, including Beez,
get's treated the same way.

Do you understand what I'm saying?

Regards,
Andrew Eddie
http://www.theartofjoomla.com - the art of becoming a Joomla developer




2009/12/16 Angie Radtke <a.ra...@derauftritt.de>:
>

[Amy Stephen]

On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 2:09 PM, Andrew Eddie <mamb...@gmail.com> wrote:

when we finish all the Beta-blockers (we will publish that soon), any

We need a list. Then, we need to stick to it.

[Russell Winter]

OK, bearing in mind that I am not as technical as many on this list and that my marketing mind is not as developed as others and probably more importantly, I am a lounge-lizard at the moment, not as active as anyone else here, but....  

For the moment, ignoring all those attributes, I have a suggestion, that although it doesn't resolve the HTML5, Compliance or marketing questions raised here, might lead to a "direction" for the future....

Would it be possible, or make sense, to maybe include an option within the "Installer" Routines? Say additional option in the "Sample Data" install that would allow for additional distributed templates to be included or not?

For example, a reasonably simple loop during the installation that on the "Install Sample Data" page could present any additional supplied templates. I would envisage something that simply looks in an installation/sampletemplates/  directory for any templates and lists them as part of the Sample Data area, allowing the user to select one or several templates to install?

This option could allow for current and future additions to be contributed, covering new technologies and would also provide functionality for Third Party Distributors to simply add their own templates, post Joomla! release.

Maybe a structure something like;

   installation/sampletemplates/
     beez/beezinstall.xml
     beez/<templates-files-etc>
     another/anotherinstall.xml
     another/<templates-files-etc>

Just a thought anyway....

Russ Winter
http://www.networksmarts.com.au/

[G. D. Speer]

Angie -

With respect, I'm supportive of your project because of it's merits, but
I'm not supportive of your tone and attitude. You are out of line, again.
You are becoming your own worst enemy.

Regardless of the extension, every project must meet quality standards to
make the cut.
Andrew is offering a second bite at the apple - if you can't get to done in
the short time
between now and bundling of beta 1, you can try again for a later release.
What else could he say for a community project. Would you rather he stuck
to the prior decision and said 'No'? You got what you wanted - shut up and
run with it!

Put together a kick-ass template and it will speak for itself. Not because
it's the 'Son of beez 1.5',
but because it meets the need we have today - a cutting edge solution for
WCAG and HTML5.

He's setting up your branch - what more can you want or expect - just go use
it!
Prove your point with awesome code, shelve the attitude, and speak nicely to
the other volunteers here. Everyone has one goal in mind. Restore the
respect
that team members deserve.

Duke

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08:02:00

[Niels Braczek]

Andrew Eddie schrieb:

> Angie, in your particular case I would ask that you assist Andy T.,
> Ron and Mark to make the core layouts as solid as possible first - as
> a priority.

Your point of view is that of a developer, which is ok.
But as a webmaster, I really don't want the core to make any layout at
all. It is up to *me* to decide, whether I want HTML3, HTML4, HTML5,
XHTLM1, XHTML2, DocBook, or whatever, in the output.

> It would be silly to have substandard work in the core
> that Beez has to override.

It is silly to have layout in the core (other than a render engine using
the strategy pattern, which easily can be replaced on runtime).

> What I want to see is the core layouts to be as compliant as possible
> out-of-the-box

Compliant to what?

> But
> when we finish all the Beta-blockers (we will publish that soon), any
> other contributed extension on the nice-to-have list, including Beez,
> get's treated the same way.

Erm... Beez *is* part of the current distribution. There's a very great
difference between "not adding" and "removing" something to/from the core.

BTW: I just want to be clear, not offending.

Regards,
Niels

[Ron Severdia]

Almost six months ago, there were a number of lengthy and heated
discussions to arrive at the plan for templates in Joomla 1.6. There
has been a lot of work and planning towards that strategy since. Once
that plan was defined by the majority who participated in those
discussions, it was my job to implement and coordinate those efforts
(by the Leadership Team and Release Team). This didn't include Beez or
HTML5 (both were part of that discussion).

So if Andrew, as one of the RMs with Hannes, or the Development
Coordinators (Ian or Mark) overrule that strategy and want to create a
new one, that's fine. But if that's the path, let's re-open the
discussion properly and re-evaluate the original plan.

[Andrew Eddie]

2009/12/16 Amy Stephen <amyst...@gmail.com>:

>
> On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 2:09 PM, Andrew Eddie <mamb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> when we finish all the Beta-blockers (we will publish that soon), any
>
> We need a list. Then, we need to stick to it.

See above => (we will publish that soon)

[Andrew Eddie]

Russell, the mechanics of that are a bit off-topic for this thread,
but it would certainly be possible to have "would you like fries with
that", I mean a page where completed works of any extension type.
Let's see how things pan out with Labs and as we get closer to
release. We are heading into new territory and it's hard to predict
the perfect route just atm :)

Regards,
Andrew Eddie
http://www.theartofjoomla.com - the art of becoming a Joomla developer

2009/12/16 Russell Winter <wint...@gmail.com>:

[Andrew Eddie]

Duke, let's keep things cordial. There are times people should be told
to shut up, others where I wish I could, but this is not one of them.
Angie doesn't need to restore any respect, she's already earned it in
my book.

Regards,
Andrew Eddie
http://www.theartofjoomla.com - the art of becoming a Joomla developer

2009/12/16 G. D. Speer <gsp...@cortech.org>:

[Jennifer Marriott]

Well one of the problems I see with this, is that 6 months ago there
was a discussion and no templates. 6 months have gone by and there
are still no templates, not even any sort of real kind of working
template. The people 6 months ago working on templates was Ron and
Steve Fisher. Now it is Ron and Christian from Blueprint, Ron and
PICnet and Ron and Andy from Rockettheme. Where was that public and
transparent discussion, on bringing in everyone else to work on
templates, and what happened to all the work that Ron reported had
already happened in previous list discussions? ( I may be
remembering wrong but I thought there was talk of 50% completion in a
recent thread in response to KenMCD.)

I also want to ask has anyone thought about how these third party
developers are going to be able to support the JBS in supporting their
templates? I would really rather not see another go round with a
template like we had with JA Purity, where the third party developer
promptly dropped any and all support to the JBS and the template. As
a member of the JBS it was, to speak plainly, a complete and utter
nightmare.

Angie has a working template, ready to go and test that is solid and
stable. She has shown that she supports her work and the project.

I am all for reopening the discussion.

Jenny

[Mark Simpson]

All signs point to HTML5 being the future. If that doesn't pan out,
nobody will lose any sleep. It's just a template for crying out loud!
It would not be *the* core template, it would be one of three or four
from what I read. Why not put it in as a teaching tool for the
developer community?
Beez, despite its lack of visual appeal, helped me and others
immensely.

@Andrew, you ask "why?". With respect, my question is, why not?
Where is the spirit of innovation, the will to push boundaries and
lead rather then follow?

@Angie,
Great work with the template... I'd love to have a downloadable
package I can play with when you're ready :)

[Amy Stephen]

On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 10:20 PM, Jennifer Marriott <marpomu...@gmail.com> wrote:

already happened in previous list discussions?   ( I may be
remembering wrong but I thought there was talk of 50% completion in a
recent thread in response to KenMCD.)

That was the Administrator Template, right?
 

I also want to ask has anyone thought about how these third party
developers are going to be able to support the JBS in supporting their
templates?  I would really rather not see another go round with a
template like we had with JA Purity, where the third party developer
promptly dropped any and all support to the JBS and the template.  As
a member of the JBS it was, to speak plainly, a complete and utter
nightmare.

That contest was a bad idea. We had problems with Beez, too, but not nearly as many issues.

I agree with Jennifer, it would be very helpful have the Template Developer manage their bug squad issues for their Template.
 

Angie has a working template, ready to go and test that is solid and
stable.  She has shown that she supports her work and the project.

Yes, Angie and Robert are excellent, long-term members of our community. In the end, what Russ is recommending will be our saving grace. (I realize that's not something for 1.6) If we had a repository for people to share GPL Templates (that they support) and users can select and install Extensions from within the Administrator, then, all of these discussions get very easy.
 
Angie - I would also love to play with your Template. Do you have a copy we can play with? Another idea is to include it in the soon to be revitalized Magazine as a learning piece.

I am all for reopening the discussion.

Jenny


On Dec 16, 6:50 pm, Ron Severdia <ron.sever...@joomla.org> wrote:
> Almost six months ago, there were a number of lengthy and heated
> discussions to arrive at the plan for templates in Joomla 1.6. There
> has been a lot of work and planning towards that strategy since. Once
> that plan was defined by the majority who participated in those
> discussions, it was my job to implement and coordinate those efforts
> (by the Leadership Team and Release Team). This didn't include Beez or
> HTML5 (both were part of that discussion).
>
> So if Andrew, as one of the RMs with Hannes, or the Development
> Coordinators (Ian or Mark) overrule that strategy and want to create a
> new one, that's fine. But if that's the path, let's re-open the
> discussion properly and re-evaluate the original plan.

[Jennifer Marriott]

You are right Amy that was a discussion regarding how the Admin
template was 50% complete. My mistake.

Actually in reading back through the discussion 6 months ago located
here: http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-cms/browse_thread/thread/47ff08f2a269c71b?hl=en#

The only reason given to not include Beez 2.0 was: that for the best
interests of the project the guidelines stated had to be adhered to or
exceeded for all templates. I think Beez 2.0 has done that in terms
of design, flexibility of type of use, and meets accessibility and
WCAG2 standards. Angie is right the HTML5 is just a really nice
added bonus that far exceeds all expectation, but actually shouldn't
be the focus.

So again, I am respectfully asking what compelling reasons are there
for not including Beez 2.0? Can anyone specifically state where it is
lacking, what guideline it is not adhering to, and what exactly it is
not rising up to in terms of best interests of the project?

Jenny

On Dec 16, 10:48 pm, Amy Stephen <amystep...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 10:20 PM, Jennifer Marriott <
>

> > joomla-dev-cm...@googlegroups.com<joomla-dev-cms%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>

[Andrew Eddie]

2009/12/16 Mark Simpson <ma...@niudigital.com>:

>
> @Andrew, you ask "why?". With respect, my question is, why not?
> Where is the spirit of innovation, the will to push boundaries and
> lead rather then follow?

Angie is showing great innovation by contributing and she is held in
respect by those others that are contributing and those that are not.
There is a means to do contribute for anyone who chooses to do so.

Regards,
Andrew Eddie

[Andrew Eddie]

Amy, Jenny - can we concentrate on the here and now please and keep up
with discussions that are happening in real time? Seriously, is what
anyone thought of the contest remotely relevant? Amy, specifically
for you, stuff about magazines or what you are doing off-site is not
relevant here. Leave it at the door.

For the record, *all* 1.5 templates except Milky Way were dropped and
Milky Way remains only because it doesn't override core output and the
core output is being completely carved up. There's no conspiracy
going on, it's just logic. Milky Way will actually remain with a full
set of legacy layouts to assist people migrating to 1.6.

Here's the bottom line. The frontend layouts *are not done*. No
template exists that is ready because the frontend layouts in the core
*are not done*. We also have new options and views and layouts to
support categories which *are not done*. It's as simple and logical
as that and no amount of rhetoric is going to change that.

I will reiterate, the point of 1.6 is, and it's really simple, to have
solid default output *from the core* (as naturally compliant as
practically possible with appropriate standards, not to mention common
sense). We are NOT having another situation where the core output
stinks. When the output is finalised, other templates can add their
secret sauce as desired.

I believe Beez is in Mark's branch, as is Andy T's admin template
though I do not know the status but, and I cannot stress this enough,
the number one priority is revising the core layout output, not
whether one template, component, module, plugin or language should be
included. Please check the *core* output in Mark's branch before
going off with anyone's template. Doing anything else in not helpful.

Please keep focus on the main thing here and since this is a
development list, it's about development. We talk code here
(passionately at times) and I'm seeing a significant lack of it in
this conversation. If you don't want to talk about things at a
technical level, please, use the forum or some other platform but
don't be a distraction here. If you have suggestions about
development processes there is a suitable thread on the General
Development list which was called for but to date hardly used.

Thankyou for your understanding.

Regards,
Andrew Eddie
http://www.theartofjoomla.com - the art of becoming a Joomla developer

2009/12/16 Jennifer Marriott <marpomu...@gmail.com>:

> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to joomla-dev-cm...@googlegroups.com.

[Ron Severdia]

On Dec 16, 9:31 pm, Jennifer Marriott <marpomultime...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> The only reason given to not include Beez 2.0 was:  that for the best
> interests of the project the guidelines stated had to be adhered to or
> exceeded for all templates.  

Not true. As Angie recapped in the first post of this thread, there
were three templates (not including Milkyway) with three different
user segments. I asked Angie at that time which segment she felt Beez
applied to and she couldn't give an answer. She left the discussion at
that point--leaving on vacation and had no further communication on
the matter up until the other day. The process and discussion moved on
with those who were interested.

> I also want to ask has anyone thought about how these third party
> developers are going to be able to support the JBS in supporting their
> templates? I would really rather not see another go round with a
> template like we had with JA Purity, where the third party developer
> promptly dropped any and all support to the JBS and the template. As
> a member of the JBS it was, to speak plainly, a complete and utter
> nightmare.

That was part of the original discussion and why three was the "magic"
number.

> Well one of the problems I see with this, is that 6 months ago there
> was a discussion and no templates. 6 months have gone by and there
> are still no templates, not even any sort of real kind of working
> template.

If you'd been following the progress, you'd notice that the core
output is changing entirely. This impacts the ability to build
templates quickly. Also, some people offered to do them and then had
other life-important priorities come up which prohibited them from
getting done. If I was going to build them myself, they'd all be done
by now, but we wanted to have people from the community build them,
right?

The reason why it's "Ron and so-and-so" working on each is because I
was asked by the Release Team to coordinate the front-end templates.
The team has been in the loop the entire time while those people have
been working (I've suggested they post their progress here, but none
have done so). So I'm not actually building any of them (though I made
a start on the Atomic template) because I have enough to do on the
admin template. But I've been coordinating other efforts and keeping
the process moving according to the original plan.

For the record, I have nothing (zip, zero, zilch) against Angie or
Beez. It's merely a practical matter. From square one, I asked how she
felt her template fit into a strategy that was in the best interest of
the product (a strategy that wasn't wholly mine to begin with). I've
taken multiple steps to include her in the template process, whether
or not Beez was included, and she has chosen to do her own thing.
That's fine and I respect that.

I do, however, have an issue with false accusations and attempts to
derail the process. It's no secret that Joomla 1.6 is way overdue and
things keep coming up that distract us away from getting it out the
door. This is not the last version of Joomla to ever be released....I
promise. There are plenty of opportunities for changes with each
version. But we need to put a stake in the ground and get it done. We
can't do that if we're perpetually re-opening and re-evaluating past
decisions.

[Jennifer Marriott]

@Andrew I was talking about development, unless you are stating that
templates fall outside of what development is. This is the dev-cms
list, which hopefully involves all aspects of developing for the
content management system including templates. If it doesn't could
another list be opened please to discuss templates as they pertain to
the core distribution. I am uncertain what "here and now" you are
referring to as this discussion is current. I brought up the contest
because it was relevant to the point I was making, which it seems I
did not make clearly enough. Purity was handed over in a mess, and
numerous members of the JBS spent countless hours fixing it, and if
you don't believe me on that, ask Mark, Ian or Alan. I can
understand how you may not realize how many man hours were spent on it
as you do not participate in the JBS. I can also assure you I spent
countless hours individually working on it, and assisting people in
the forums with it. I brought it up because it was relevant to the
current discussion of having third party developers provide templates,
and whether they will be willing to support and follow through on that
support over the life of 1.6. I think it is an important point to
consider.

@Ron I am glad everyone in PL is in the loop on the decisions to bring
in third party developers to create the templates. It would have been
nice to see that discussion on the PL group list, so that other people
in the community could have had a chance to be informed. Considering
as of late your other postings, I did not feel I was out of line to
request a re-examination of the status and forward path on templates,
because the original discussion was so long ago, and now there are a
number of new people involved, as well as distinct change in what the
previously stated plan was. No false accusations, no derailing. You
stated you would be willing to open up the discussion. I agreed. If
the case is now that the discussion is closed then I will abide by
it. Perhaps a full progress report on the 3 templates, and a
reiteration of the template strategy and how each of those templates
falls into that strategy will help me understand it all a bit better?

[Christophe Demko]

Hi to all,

We have to made Joomla a leading CMS. For these reasons, we have to
ensure that
* it's quite up-to-date with new technologies.
* it's without bugs ;)

Implementing now a html5 compliant template leads us to
* include special javascript http://remysharp.com/2009/01/07/html5-enabling-script/
for enabling browsers that does not support html5
* categorize templates for its output (saying for example "beez
produces html5"). I suggest to add an attribute to the install xml tag
(<install version="1.6" type="template" output=*output*> where
*output* could be "html5", "xhtml5", "html4", ...). So administrator
can choose between its templates those who are html4 compatible, or
html5 compatible or ...
* have a special bug team responsible for correcting the bugs linked
to the template on ALL browsers
* ensure included templates are without bugs ;) when stable release
will be out

I'm also for the idea proposed by Russel Winter: the ability at
installation to include "Sample template" and if we extend that
concept to include (or not) components that are not essential to
joomla:
* com_banners,
* com_weblinks, ...

Ch.D

[Angie Radtke]

Hi Ron,

> I asked Angie at that time which segment she felt Beez
applied to and she couldn't give an answer.

I try explaining again.

Beez can be used for various of these templates.
It depends only on the design. For a business template we can't use the
beez image it's a bit too kittenish.
But it could be changed easily. Take a look at the ( 5 minutes made) demo
in the attachment.
The same one can be done for the blog once.
For me it doesn't matter what kind of visual target group beez will be
used for.
If somebody doesn't like the design it can be changed easily.

>> I've
taken multiple steps to include her in the template process,

That's not true. We talk in June on the template discussion.
On that day I told you my skype name per mail and ping you, but you never
allow me to see you skype status until now.
Our next contact after that was 3 days before today when I sent you a mail.
You never contact me. It seems that we have only a communication lack.

Bye Angie

[Robert]

Proposal to bring things forward.

(I try to take some problems and offers **IN LINE**, please don't
weigh up every word)

Current Situation:
+ core output isn't finished
+ some templates are on the way
+ beez 2.0 is nearly finished with own overrides
+ I see a willingness to work together

Next steps:
+ make a branch for work
+ build a small team
+ finish the core output (we can use some of the finished beez
overrides)
+ discuss in an open and transparent way, what kind of templates and
strategies will be included in the core distibution

I will try to help and do the PHP work within this area. Angie and I
are a good team over years, so I think we can make a big step forward.
But I am also fine, if anyone others will do the work.

Robert

[Angie Radtke]

Hi Andrew

> Angie, in your particular case I would ask that you assist Andy T.,
> Ron and Mark to make the core layouts as solid as possible first - as
> a priority.

> we haven't finished the layouts or finalised the styling.

I would like to do that. It would be a nice team.
It is no problem for me to work at both projects in time.
I can help them and concurrently I can work at beez.
So both things can be finished in one time.

Andrew, I haven't heard a real reason why beez shouldn't be included.
Please tell me again, maybe it's my fault and I haven't translated all
right.
What I understand is follows:
Ron says it doesn't fit in the categorys and you say we have to finish the
core layouts first.
Did I loose some arguments?

If I don't find the right words sometimes please understand I'm no native
speaker.

Angie

[Andrew Eddie]

2009/12/17 Robert <rde...@googlemail.com>:

>
> Current Situation:
> + core output isn't finished

Correct.

> + some templates are on the way

Correct

> + beez 2.0 is nearly finished with own overrides

A major part of the overrides should go into core if possible.
Ideally, Beez should not have any overrides except where you are
wanting to reorder the placement of objects or where you want to
include something new.

> + I see a willingness to work together

Correct.

>
> Next steps:
> + make a branch for work

Contact Mark Dexter about that.

> + build a small team

Mark, Andy T. and Ron (have I forgotten anyone) are already working on
this so assist them in any way you can. Please keep as much technical
discussion/summary on the list so that other people can contribute as
well. It would be wise to also include other
commercial/non-commercial template developers if they are willing.
They have a right to be involved in this process to.

> + finish the core output (we can use some of the finished beez
> overrides)

Excellent.

> + discuss in an open and transparent way, what kind of templates and
> strategies will be included in the core distibution

They can be, but the PLT will have final say on *everything* that goes
into 1.6 (templates, components, modules, plugins, etc). We need to
actually get this release finished and there is still a lot of other
important core work to do.

> I will try to help and do the PHP work within this area. Angie and I
> are a good team over years, so I think we can make a big step forward.
> But I am also fine, if anyone others will do the work.

Sounds like a plan.

[Andrew Eddie]

Hi Angie.

See the comments I made to Robert.

Regards,
Andrew Eddie
http://www.theartofjoomla.com - the art of becoming a Joomla developer

2009/12/17 Angie Radtke <a.ra...@derauftritt.de>:

[Amy Stephen]

On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 12:40 AM, Andrew Eddie <mamb...@gmail.com> wrote:

Amy, Jenny - can we concentrate on the here and now please and keep up
with discussions that are happening in real time? Seriously, is what
anyone thought of the contest remotely relevant?  Amy, specifically
for you, stuff about magazines or what you are doing off-site is not
relevant here.  Leave it at the door.

FYI: The Joomla! Community Magazine is not planned off site.

Not trying to cause trouble, will step aside.

Thanks!

[Steven Pignataro]

My only concern about HTML5 is the support on the browser end. Not
many browsers in the field support HTML5 - so are we jumping the gun
or are we just preparing for what is coming down the pipeline.

Kindest regards,

--Steven PIgnataro

[Robert]

Hi Andrew

On 17 Dez., 16:56, Andrew Eddie <mambob...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2009/12/17 Robert <rde...@googlemail.com>:
>
>
>
> > Current Situation:
> > + core output isn't finished
>
> Correct.
>
> > + some templates are on the way
>
> Correct
>
> > + beez 2.0 is nearly finished with own overrides
>
> A major part of the overrides should go into core if possible.
> Ideally, Beez should not have any overrides except where you are
> wanting to reorder the placement of objects or where you want to
> include something new.
>
> > + I see a willingness to work together
>
> Correct.
>
>
>
> > Next steps:
> > + make a branch for work
>
> Contact Mark Dexter about that.
>

Ok, I will get in contact with him.

> > + build a small team
>
> Mark, Andy T. and Ron (have I forgotten anyone) are already working on
> this so assist them in any way you can.  Please keep as much technical
> discussion/summary on the list so that other people can contribute as
> well.  It would be wise to also include other
> commercial/non-commercial template developers if they are willing.
> They have a right to be involved in this process to.
>

1+

> > + finish the core output (we can use some of the finished beez
> > overrides)
>
> Excellent.
>
> > + discuss in an open and transparent way, what kind of templates and
> > strategies will be included in the core distibution
>
> They can be, but the PLT will have final say on *everything* that goes
> into 1.6 (templates, components, modules, plugins, etc). We need to
> actually get this release finished and there is still a lot of other
> important core work to do.
>
> > I will try to help and do the PHP work within this area. Angie and I
> > are a good team over years, so I think we can make a big step forward.
> > But I am also fine, if anyone others will do the work.
>
> Sounds like a plan.

A good one? [rhetorical question :-D ]

Robert

[Ron Severdia]

On Dec 17, 12:29 am, "Angie Radtke" <a.rad...@derauftritt.de> wrote:
> That's not true. We talk in June on the template discussion.
> On that day I told you my skype name  per mail and ping you, but you never
> allow me to see you skype status until now.
> Our next contact after that  was 3 days before today when I sent you a mail.
> You never contact me. It seems that we have  only a communication lack.

Five months ago, I emailed you and I added you to the Skype chat
discussing the layouts. You're still a member of that chat right now.
You had ample opportunity to discuss and participate. So I've never
prevented you from seeing my Skype status. Even if I did, we've been
in the same chat for the whole time and you can talk to me at any
moment (like you chose to the other day).

[Angie Radtke]

Hi Ron ,

maybe there is a technical problem.
I ping you again.

Greetings Angie .-)

-----Urspr�ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: joomla-...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:joomla-...@googlegroups.com]Im Auftrag von Ron Severdia
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 17. Dezember 2009 18:01
An: Joomla! CMS Development
Betreff: Re: beez 2.0 and XHTML 5

--

[Hannes Papenberg]

Hi Mark,
I personally would prefer to work on the basic features of Joomla before
we add flashy effects to the frontend. My concern is more with comments,
versioning, media manager, search, etc., then being on the absolute
bleeding edge of the current (X)HTML standard. I want proper, semantic
output that is supported in 99% of the browsers out there in the wild
and thats where I'm quite a conservative.

Hannes

Mark Simpson schrieb:

[Mark Simpson]

Hi Hannes,
Thank you very much for responding to my comments.
I certainly don't want to argue about it or push too hard, especially
since I'm just a php greenhorn and can't create patches or contribute
code myself.

Those features you mention are definitely more important then the one
this thread is about, and I'm glad you're focusing on that.

Just to be clear though, this theme by Angie will not *require* any
changes to whatever output J1.6 views were going to spit out as 99% of
XHTML 1.0 output is still valid in HTML5.

> I want proper, semantic output that is supported in 99% of the browsers out there in the wild

There is no output more semantic then HTML5 ... <nav> around the main
menu, <article> around every article, <aside> for mod_login, mod_poll,
mod_mostread, etc
One js file of under 1KB fed to IE via conditional comments is just
about all that's needed. http://html5shiv.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/html5.js

Kind regards,
Mark

On Dec 19, 10:56 pm, Hannes Papenberg <hackwa...@googlemail.com>
wrote:

[Ron Severdia]

I feel it's a bit late in the game to be requesting a reopening or re-
examination of any substantial part of 1.6 (like template strategy).
We've already released two alpha versions and are closing in on a
beta. Higher-level decisions were finalized months ago and we've been
in the building phase as of late. So, it doesn't matter *who* suggests
reopening past decisions...it's just way late in the process to do so.
If a showstopper were to come up for some reason, we'd certainly
address it, but so far I haven't seen any.

If there are those in the community that wish to be informed in more
detail about the process than what has been shared, feel free to ask.
I'm certainly willing to share missing details related to things I'm
working on. It's often hard to work on something in your free time and
also get the "administrative" aspects done at the same time as getting
the actual work done. The administrative stuff (like sharing small
details) takes extra time and I've taken the approach (good or bad) of
sharing the high points to indicate the process is still moving
forward. But details have taken a back seat to getting work done.

The template strategy is the same as before. Due to personal/work
commitments, the people who originally offered to do the templates
were unable to commit. The current people (mentioned earlier) came to
me and offered to do the templates at the precise time the previous
folks were unable to commit. They are reputable members of the
community and I shared their offer with the Release Team and we moved
forward. That's pretty much how it came about. No lengthy
dissertations, no shady backroom dealings.

The templates are being custom made for each of those audience
segments. So we're not trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.
Each fits the strategy better than anything available because they're
specifically tailored for it. I've asked Andy Miller of RocketTheme
and Ryan Belisle of Picnet to each share their templates as they
progress. When the Atomic template is ready with the Blueprint team, I
can post that (or Christian can). But it's the holiday season and
people are busy with holiday stuff so factor that in. But I think the
group of folks working on templates is a well-respected group of
people and I'm also excited to have the Blueprint team involved, which
definitely pushes Joomla in a cutting-edge direction.

Once the templates are posted (hopefully soon), it's open season on
community feedback. Naturally, we won't be able to incorporate
everything and we'll need to prioritize items. Depending an the timing
of the beta release, we may have another round of feedback based on
revisions. Or we may just make revisions and drop them into the beta
with the idea that there will be plenty of tweaks during the beta
cycle.

So that's the overview in a nutshell.

[Hannes Papenberg]

Hi Mark,
the issue is not, if Joomla outputs proper HTML, but what kind of output
it generates. The tables in the layouts of 1.5 were valid HTML, but they
are neither accessible nor good HTML. They are not semantic. Thats why
we've started the process of recreating the basic output of Joomla and
thats why we now have lists for articles instead of tables in blog view
and why we have h-tags instead of just a crappy CSS-class in a table
cell. So what we've been saying earlier in this thread is, that these
new layouts are not finished and that no template can claim to be
finished before these layouts aren't done. And I want Joomla to be
accessible, semantic and standards compliant from the start and not need
yet new layout overrides to achieve this. Overrides should only be
necessary when you absolutely need to reorder output, not to achieve
basic functionality.

Hannes

Mark Simpson schrieb:

[Lou Griffith]

Ron,

This is a great reponse - I appreciate you shedding light on the
process and how we got where we are today.

At the beginning of the 1.6 were there certain parameters or goals
that had to be met in order to be considered? If so where can that be
found? This would be a great foundation for the Joomla garden idea
which is still in the works.

Thanks Ron and Joomla team,
Lou

On Dec 20, 2009, at 3:26 PM, Ron Severdia <ron.se...@joomla.org>
wrote:

> --
>
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Joomla! CMS Development" group.
> To post to this group, send an email to joomla-...@googlegroups.com
> .
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to joomla-dev-cm...@googlegroups.com

[Mark Simpson]

Thanks Hannes, that sounds good. Keep up the great work.
Cheers.

On Dec 21, 9:44 am, Hannes Papenberg <hackwa...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Hi Mark,

> > about all that's needed.http://html5shiv.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/html5.js