Re: [jcms] True html5

[Matt Thomas]

Ideally, this would be implemented as a core JTML behavior (?) so that each template could optionally call and load it, just in case someone isn't using HTML5. Or, maybe have the behavior true by default and templates could optionally turn it off?

Either way, agreed that this is absolutely necessary if we want the use HTML5 elements.

Best,

Matt Thomas

Founder betweenbrain™

Lead Developer Construct Template Development Framework

Phone: 203.632.9322
Twitter: @betweenbrain

Github: https://github.com/betweenbrain

On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 11:36 AM, Seth Warburton <se...@internet-inspired.com> wrote:

I was wondering, does anyone know why the html5shiv has not been included somewhere?

Without it there is no support for html5 elements like <section, <article, <nav, <header, etc.

I was about to start updating markup in core views to use these elements (so we actually generate html5 rather than just change the doctype) but without the shiv IE8 will go in a corner and cry.

It's included in Bootstrap for this very reason; https://github.com/twitter/bootstrap/blob/master/docs/index.html#L16

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[Seth Warburton]

We've switched to html5, we should be using the new elements. The accessibility and other gains they bring are huge.

The problem I have now is that if I start updating core views with these elements and some sort of shiv (personally I use Modernizr) isn't loaded IE8 will choke. And, if core views get html5 markup elements then there will need to be some polyfill regardless of front-end template if we are to avoid devs needing to retrofit their templates with overrides for backwards compatibility. That's plainly nuts. Therefore, I don't believe this should be optional while we support IE8.

[Matt Thomas]

Agreed! At a minimum, html5shiv should be included. Frankly, I see no reason to even use the HTML5 doctype if we aren't going to use the new elements. The problem is we do need a polyfill before we can do this.

Best,

Matt

Sent from my phone that uses an open source operating system.

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[piotr_cz]

What about IE9- with Javascript disabled?

On Sep 4, 11:17 pm, Matt Thomas <m...@betweenbrain.com> wrote:
> Agreed! At a minimum, html5shiv should be included. Frankly, I see no
> reason to even use the HTML5 doctype if we aren't going to use the new
> elements. The problem is we do need a polyfill before we can do this.
>
> Best,
>
> Matt
>
> Sent from my phone that uses an open source operating system.

> On Sep 4, 2012 5:00 PM, "Seth Warburton" <s...@internet-inspired.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > We've switched to html5, we should be using the new elements. The
> > accessibility and other gains they bring are huge.
>
> > The problem I have now is that if I start updating core views with these
> > elements and some sort of shiv (personally I use Modernizr) isn't loaded
> > IE8 will choke. And, if core views get html5 markup elements then there
> > will need to be some polyfill regardless of front-end template if we are to
> > avoid devs needing to retrofit their templates with overrides for backwards
> > compatibility. That's plainly nuts. Therefore, I don't believe this should
> > be optional while we support IE8.
>
> > On Tuesday, September 4, 2012 5:25:02 PM UTC+1, betweenbrain wrote:
>
> >> Ideally, this would be implemented as a core JTML behavior (?) so that
> >> each template could optionally call and load it, just in case someone isn't
> >> using HTML5. Or, maybe have the behavior true by default and templates
> >> could optionally turn it off?
>
> >> Either way, agreed that this is absolutely necessary if we want the use
> >> HTML5 elements.
>
> >> Best,
>
> >> Matt Thomas

> >> Founder betweenbrain <http://betweenbrain.com/>™
> >> Lead Developer Construct Template Development Framework<http://construct-framework.com/>
> >> Phone: 203.632.9322
> >> Twitter: @betweenbrain
> >> Github:https://github.com/**betweenbrain<https://github.com/betweenbrain>

>
> >> On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 11:36 AM, Seth Warburton <
> >> se...@internet-inspired.com> wrote:
>
> >>> I was wondering, does anyone know why the html5shiv has not been
> >>> included somewhere?
>
> >>> Without it there is no support for html5 elements like <section,
> >>> <article, <nav, <header, etc.
>
> >>> I was about to start updating markup in core views to use these elements
> >>> (so we actually generate html5 rather than just change the doctype) but
> >>> without the shiv IE8 will go in a corner and cry.
>
> >>> It's included in Bootstrap for this very reason;

> >>>https://github.com/twitter/**bootstrap/blob/master/docs/**index.html#L16<https://github.com/twitter/bootstrap/blob/master/docs/index.html#L16>

>
> >>> --
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> >>> .

[Rouven Weßling]

IE9 has no problems with the new elements.

Best regards
Rouven

[Seth Warburton]

So, does anyone know why this was never included? I did ask Kyle, he didn't seem to know.

It's a major oversight IMO. It's holding back progress of the entire CMS as far as I am concerned.

The only way I can get html5 output is to continue to override every single component, as I have been since 1.5.

[Steve]

Seems like a great idea, particularly to have the behavior true by default and allow templates to optionally turn it off.

What are the possible drawbacks (if any)?

[Seth Warburton]

The major problem is that the core markup should (but doesn't have to be) updated to take advantage of the new elements. I'm quite happy to do large amounts of this, but without the guarantee that a polyfill will be present it *will* break IE8.

Example: <header> is clearly preferable in every way to <div class="header">, but without a shiv IE8 won't even see the element.

[Roberto Segura]

In order to integrate it what do you think is the best approach to this?

Create a system plugin that allows users to enable/disable it? 

[Matt Thomas]

Could it be along the lines of:

JHtml::_('behavior.html5shiv');

Best,

Matt Thomas

Founder betweenbrain™

Lead Developer Construct Template Development Framework

Phone: 203.632.9322
Twitter: @betweenbrain

Github: https://github.com/betweenbrain

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/joomla-dev-cms/-/Y1tB-3w4MSYJ.

[piotr_cz]

I meant IE9 minus, so IE8 and IE7 (14% share) with javascript
disabled. JS based HTML5 shim is useless there.

Given that these browsers are used in corporate area, disabling
javascript by admins is not uncommon. Unfortunately this is not
tracked by analytics tools as most need JS to work.

ref: http://gs.statcounter.com/#browser_version-ww-monthly-201108-201208

On Sep 5, 1:39 pm, Rouven Weßling <m...@rouvenwessling.de> wrote:
> IE9 has no problems with the new elements.
>
> Best regards
> Rouven
>

>  smime.p7s
> 6KViewDownload

[Rouven Weßling]

On 06.09.2012, at 09:35, piotr_cz <pkoni...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> I meant IE9 minus, so IE8 and IE7 (14% share) with javascript
> disabled. JS based HTML5 shim is useless there.

We've discussed a while back that we'll stop officially supporting IE7 with Joomla 3.0.

> Given that these browsers are used in corporate area, disabling
> javascript by admins is not uncommon. Unfortunately this is not
> tracked by analytics tools as most need JS to work.

At least the admin and installation are useless without JavaScript anyway so at least there we don't have an issue.

Rouven

[Seth Warburton]

Agreed. If you have disabled javascript you have broken Joomla anyway. If it only breaks on IE8 with .js disabled I see that as perfectly acceptable. 

[brian teeman]

On Thursday, 6 September 2012 09:17:38 UTC+1, Seth Warburton wrote:

Agreed. If you have disabled javascript you have broken Joomla anyway.

No you have only removed the ability to install joomla and use the administrator. It is still perfectly usable as a web site.

 

If it only breaks on IE8 with .js disabled I see that as perfectly acceptable. 

I chose to disagree

[Roberto Segura]

What are we talking about?

If we want Joomla to be fully HTML5 we need JS. And with "fully HTML5" I mean having the right HTML markup not just passing the HTML5 validation. 

This could be solved with user HTML5 overrides but remember that actually not all the HTML output code can be overriden. So if you want a cool website with the latest web technology and recommended markup you can't do it with Joomla!

Most fully HTML5 websites out there use JS to support IE8.

El martes, 4 de septiembre de 2012 18:25:02 UTC+2, betweenbrain escribió:

[Mark Simpson]

+1 to using the semantic HTML5 elements in J! core.

- Use JHtml::_('behavior.html5shiv'); as recommended by Matt

- Only use the semantic elements for markup that can be overridden.

[Matt Thomas]

For those that critically need to support IE8 with JavaScript disabled, they can create template overrides to remove the newer HTML5 elements. Since those browsers are likely to be the vast minority, I see this as being a better solution than holding back the CMS and forcing us to continue to override the entire core so that we can use current technology.

I've been using html5shiv(m) with Construct5 since its inception and haven't received a single complaint or bug report due to JS being disabled.

Best,

Matt Thomas
Founder betweenbrain™
Lead Developer Construct Template Development Framework
Phone: 203.632.9322
Twitter: @betweenbrain
Github: https://github.com/betweenbrain

Composed and delivered courtesy of Nexus 7.

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[allrude]

I think that Matt's filosofie in this matter should be the standard approach regarding these matters.

The CMS must follow the latest (accepted) standards, and handling older or minor browsers, can be taken care of with template overrides and css exceptions and other tricks/tools.

so a big 1+ for Matt

 
Ruud van Zuidam
M  +31-637170938

[Seth Warburton]

Not with Bootstrap you don't.

[Seth Warburton]

Thank you Roberto, Mark, Matt and Ruud. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks the whole CMS should be held back to support IE8 users with js disabled. 

The gains in accessibility alone far outweigh impact that may have, in my opinion. 

I agree with Matt. Implement the shiv as default and use semantic markup in component outputs. If you need no-js support in IE8 you can create an override. Better than the alternative of overriding every component output to get modern, standard markup and add accessibility.

[Johannes Hock]

That's the way it should be. Loading html5shiv (and maybe modernizr) if needed, to remain accessibility and a clear semantic structure with html5 and maybe wai aria roles too.

If not, every template has to provide a ton of html override files to handle that fault.

Thanks to everybody, who is working on this issue!!!

[Paulo Griiettner]

I too support the idea of having semantic HTML5 included to core and I see Matt's idea the best one...

I is the next step to get this going?

[Matt Thomas]

For anyone who is interested, I've started an organization on Github for this at https://github.com/organizations/semantic-joomla

The plan with this organization is to assemble a team to re-code the core markup. The strategy is to keep the master branch untouched, and only merge changes from the Joomla CMS repo. Feature branches are being created for each component/view for ease of pull requests and merging.

Please contact me if you'd like to join in.

Best,

Matt Thomas

Founder betweenbrain™

Lead Developer Construct Template Development Framework

Phone: 203.632.9322
Twitter: @betweenbrain

Github: https://github.com/betweenbrain

On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 10:45 AM, Paulo Griiettner <griie...@gmail.com> wrote:

I too support the idea of having semantic HTML5 included to core and I see Matt's idea the best one...

I is the next step to get this going?

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[Brad Gies]

Absolutely, and the 3.0 release is the perfect place in the release
cycle to make these changes.... so please do it ;).

Brad.

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[Brad Gies]

Brian, not disagreeing with you as much as wondering : Does anyone do this? If you can't install it easily, or use the administrator, what good is using it as a website? Do they build the website with a different browser and just use the corporate approved browser to access it?

Brad.

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[Rouven Weßling]

On 06.09.2012, at 18:59, Brad Gies <rbg...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Brian, not disagreeing with you as much as wondering : Does anyone do this? If you can't install it easily, or use the administrator, what good is using it as a website? Do they build the website with a different browser and just use the corporate approved browser to access it?

I don't really care one way or another but Brian's point isn't invalid. While you can quite easily expect those that administrate a website to have JavaScript it's different than requiring all the visitors of your site to have JS on. (Or in this case those visitors using IE8)

Best regards
Rouven

[piotr_cz]

Okay, I'm for including HTML5 shiv. I forgot about the power of
overrides.

If somebody still needs to support IE8 or lower with Javascript
disabled, then:
- may use HTML overrides
- notice to upgrade <!--[if lt IE 9]><noscript><div
class="browserarlert">Enable JS or get browser that doesn't suck</
div></noscript><![endif]-->
- Joomla 2.5 which is supported till Spring 2014

Unfortunately, even in 2012 there are international companies with
employees working on WinXP + IE6.

[Seth Warburton]

"Unfortunately, even in 2012 there are international companies with 

employees working on WinXP + IE6."

Microsoft just launched a new version of their site: http://www.microsoft.com 

Amusingly, it needs to include an html5 shiv courtesy of modernizer to enable backward compatibility for their older browsers lack of support for html5 elements. 

Even more amusingly, IE6 is not supported.

When Microsoft decides they are not going to support IE6 on their own corporate website, I think I can safely not give a shit about it also ;)

[brian teeman]

You might not care but until the british government and the largest employer in the EU (the nhs) upgrade then i have to care

[elin]

If you are willing to give up the largest market in the world (China) and the poorest population in the world (Africa) both of which are highly dependent on older versions of IE that's fine for your business, but I don't think it's okay for Joomla as a project to write off those users or the businesses offering web site creation services aimed at those markets.

@Brad yes that is exactly what happens. In most enterprise environments with managed desktops/laptops you will be  given the one browser/version that you can use and you don't have the option of upgrading or installing something new on your own. 

If you are willing to give up the largest market in the world (China) and the poorest population in the world (Africa) both of which are highly dependent on older versions of IE that's fine for your business, but I don't think it's okay for Joomla as a project to write off those users or the businesses offering web site creation services aimed at those markets. I want someone in Botswana to be able to make a website about something they are interested in and have that person be able to share it with their neighbors. Now in fact since phones are emerging as the dominant hardware option for people in the third world I think the bootstrapification is a good thing for this. But we do need to understand how many rehabbed older desktops that literally cannot support newer browsers there are out there in African schools as one example. 

@Seth what people or companies do with individual websites that they could make using Joomla is really not our business, Joomla is just supposed to make it possible for them to do what they want, whether that is support IE6  or whatever else. MS has been trying to kill IE6 for years since it is a major headache for them. The fact that they don't support it on their site is of no particular relevance.

Elin

[Rob Stocker]

Could the largest market and the poorest market use joomla 1.5 or joomla 2.5?

Sure holding back a cutting edge piece of software to accommodate those who can't or wont upgrade is shooting oneself in the foot. I am not proposing a "don't give a shot philosophy", but if ie6 is good enough then is not  j1.5 or even 2.5  not good enough too?

I would not try and make Call of Duty 10 work on a 386.

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[Seth Warburton]

"The fact that they don't support it on their site is of no particular relevance."

You can't be serious! Really? MS don't support IE6, Google don't support IE6, but Joomla should??

If you want to support outdated browsers, use old software. period.

No one can seriously expect to watch 3D HDTV (run Joomla 3.x) on a 19" CRT (Win XP IE6). If they do, they aren't quite in touch with reality.

Seth

[Seth Warburton]

No, you just have to be honest and tell them they can't run the newest CMS in the oldest browser. People understand that. 

[Jacques Rentzke]

This conversations has turned really surreal!

Surely those who helped build 3.0 cannot seriously ask that this version should accommodate a non-supported browser (IE6) ?

The argument about use in China and somewhere in Africa, has no relevance. Neither should we give so much weight on what would happen with companies who choose to use a dead browser.

I'm sure that the new PHP and database requirements are much more likely to limit the use of 3.0 on old systems, then browser support.

Those who can't use 3.0 can keep on using 2.5.x or even 1.5.x (if people want to support that), or they can use template overrides, as Matt suggests.

Joomla! should join this Microsoft campaign: http://www.ie6countdown.com/

Matt's suggestion sounds like a good one for this new series. (that's allowed to break backward compatibility)

Jacques

[piotr_cz]

Why MS doesn't support IE6 on their website? Maybe people using this
browser are not prospective clients for them.
Google doesn't support IE6, 7 and now even 8. But Google's products
are mostly client-side webapps while Joomla is a CMS, where content is
primarily most important thing.

However, since Joomla 2.5 will be supported till Dec 2013, I'd suggest
that this version should be used when targeting older browsers, while
3.0 for IE8+.
Once 2.5 support reaches end-of-life, hopefully IE6-8 will become a
history.

[Satish F9tech.com]

Yes its better to support till ver 3.0

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[Seth Warburton]

+1000