New (to us) boat. #152. Hello and Questions.
29 views
Skip to first unread message
LakeSailor
Aug 13, 2009, 11:32:44 AM8/13/09
to Johnson 18 One Design -2009
OVERVIEW
I am not the owner, but I started drive #152 this spring. We (owner
and I) are sailing in the Minnetonka (MN) Yacht Club open fleet. We
are the only Jn18. Last night, winds around 7, we could not point. We
estimated we could sail no closer to the wind then 60-65 degrees
except in puffs. Pointing has been an issue all along. I think we
point better in higher winds.
QUESTIONS
How well should a Jn18 point?
Is our rig set wrong?
How touchy is main/traveller position to performance?
Any other performance tips other then what is on these related sites?
I am not the owner, but I started drive #152 this spring. We (owner
and I) are sailing in the Minnetonka (MN) Yacht Club open fleet. We
are the only Jn18. Last night, winds around 7, we could not point. We
estimated we could sail no closer to the wind then 60-65 degrees
except in puffs. Pointing has been an issue all along. I think we
point better in higher winds.
QUESTIONS
How well should a Jn18 point?
Is our rig set wrong?
How touchy is main/traveller position to performance?
Any other performance tips other then what is on these related sites?
ortegakid
Aug 13, 2009, 12:09:50 PM8/13/09
to Johnson 18 One Design -2009
I think you should check shroud tens, and jib car placement, mine
points really well, allthough we have a lot more wind than that, but
when it was light last week, no problem.Main traveler on mine is
windward sheeting car, works well, allthough don't move it much more
than a foot over center, just enough to keep boom in middle of
boat,check your outhaul also, makes a big diff if too tight!,See my
facebook for pix:Derek B Mckesson
points really well, allthough we have a lot more wind than that, but
when it was light last week, no problem.Main traveler on mine is
windward sheeting car, works well, allthough don't move it much more
than a foot over center, just enough to keep boom in middle of
boat,check your outhaul also, makes a big diff if too tight!,See my
facebook for pix:Derek B Mckesson
LakeSailor
Aug 13, 2009, 12:51:25 PM8/13/09
to Johnson 18 One Design -2009
Thanks.
Speaking of shroud tension, I do not understand the tuning guide/
tension translation found therein. Is their a guide translated to
"current" tensioning tools?
> > Any other performance tips other then what is on these related sites?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Speaking of shroud tension, I do not understand the tuning guide/
tension translation found therein. Is their a guide translated to
"current" tensioning tools?
>
> - Show quoted text -
derek mckesson
Aug 13, 2009, 1:31:01 PM8/13/09
to johnson-18...@googlegroups.com
I don't use a Loos gauge, just feel, I set up the shroud adjusters so I can see the marks after rigging, and adjust to 2.5 on the outer(upper), and 2.0 on the inner, most importantly, the lowers are equal and soft so the mast can bend when not windy. As the wind builds, needs be raked back more, like my FD, too bad you can't (or aren't allowed to) adjust on the water.
> Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2009 09:51:25 -0700
> Subject: [johnson-18] Re: New (to us) boat. #152. Hello and Questions.
> From: to...@barkusconsulting.com
> To: johnson-18...@googlegroups.com
> Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2009 09:51:25 -0700
> Subject: [johnson-18] Re: New (to us) boat. #152. Hello and Questions.
> From: to...@barkusconsulting.com
> To: johnson-18...@googlegroups.com
Five Cubed Skipper
Aug 14, 2009, 10:12:11 AM8/14/09
to Johnson 18 One Design -2009
I have my shrouds set VERY loose. (both uppers and lowers are 1 to 1.5
on both the turnbuckle numbers). I take my mast down regularly and
leaving them set loose makes it easier to slide the forestay pin in.
Also I find that for my sails ( I had Haarstick, from NY, build them
several years back) that I need to bend the mast quite a lot to
flatten the main in more wind. Having the lowers loose allows the mast
to bend forward in the middle to flatten the main. It is cut fairly
deep for our light Chesapeake summers. When it really blows, I find
that having the uppers loose also helps to lean the mast backward
overall and tighten the fore stay tension to allow pointing/pinching
when overpowered. The rig does bounce quite a bit when too
overpowered (beating in puffs from mid to high 20s) and I have to blow
the main entirely, but it hasn't come down in a heap yet.
As far as point: jib car leads for my jib are fairly far back (1
forward from the aftmost car position or actually in the aftmost
position) and I tend not to bother adjusting them (though I probably
should) for less wind. Losing a little power from the top of the jib
doesn't seem to be the worst thing since it's small and closing the
jib's leach can interfere with the main's shape and wind adhesion.
Remember how big the main is compared to the jib and that the boat is
really powered by the main. If you move car too far forward, you can
start to get a bubble in the main from a sleight back winding.You
really have to shift gears in 5-7 knots of wind...you should start
with the jib eased 3-8 inches (clew to block). Make sure the boat
speed is maxed out on this trim BEFORE you start sneaking the jib
tighter. Even then you still should not sheet it more than 2 inches
from clew to the block for 5-8 knots. The key is really main trim,
make sure that you put a belly in the sail 6-8 inches of space between
the deepest part of the foot and the boom is about right for outhaul
tension for 5-8 knots. For cunningham tighten or loosen to achieve
small wrinkles in the luff. I suggest using no vang whatsoever (In
fact I rarely use the vang except running or reaching in big wind).
The main sheet will do fine for controlling the leach of the main.
You want to make sure that the two lower tails are flying all the time
(I have 4 tails on my main). I don't worry about trying to fly the top
tail with any regularity since with this much draft (belly) in the
sail, there is a significant curve in the head and top batten. I try
to make the second tail down flick back and forth with main trim
(sheet tension mostly). You need to work the main sheet in and out
around 6-12 inches usually in 5-7 knots with occasional minor
adjustments to the traveler (less wind = higher traveler, more wind =
lower traveler). Once you get more time at the helm you'll be able to
feel the boat (in adjusting to sleight pressure changes I usually feel
the heel change, and listen to the sound of the wake) when it gets a
little underpowered or overpowered and make the appropriate
adjustments to the main sheet while still watching you jib tails for
point. Usually, you want the traveler just high enough to get the
boom to center line, above center line is slow. I focus on sheeting
the main and less on the traveler, since it really lets me control how
closed or open the leach of the main is and grabbing the traveler line
is distracting from steering and watching the jib tales.. The windward
sheeting car is usually about 6 inches to a foot (max) above center
line. Do not pinch. Finally you should get the weight in the boat as
far forward as possible. Depending on your crew weight and the heel
you're trying to work (More heel in chop is better- to cut into the
waves with the gunwale v. flat is better for flat water) consider
having you crew sit on the low side- gunwale or in the bottom of the
boat and skipper moving forward of the traveler to sit on the high
side, and hike in the puffs as required- though the crew leaning
inward does the same thing. The less bubbles you hear the transom
cutting as the boat moves forward the better. If you have too much
weight in the back of the boat you will see a "crease" of water and
some bubbles (parallel to the transom) falling back into the smooth
flow coming off the transom. As you move weight forward in the boat
you will notice the "crease" moving farther away from the transom.
Move weight forward until the crease disappears and it's just a smooth
stream breaking cleanly from the training edge of the boat. To be
fair the boat doesn't point as well as some other boats in light wind.
The premium is on boat speed and smooth tacks and powering up before
getting into full point mode, which will help you generate better
point and speed by adding to your apparent wind. I confess I'm not as
diligent in watching the compass as I should be but my sense is that
the boat tacks through about 100 to 110 degrees, which would give you
50-55 degrees off the true wind direction.
Let us know how it works out!
-Brian
(Hull # 125)
On Aug 13, 1:31 pm, derek mckesson <dbmckes...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I don't use a Loos gauge, just feel, I set up the shroud adjusters so I can see the marks after rigging, and adjust to 2.5 on the outer(upper), and 2.0 on the inner, most importantly, the lowers are equal and soft so the mast can bend when not windy. As the wind builds, needs be raked back more, like my FD, too bad you can't (or aren't allowed to) adjust on the water.
>
>
>
> > Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2009 09:51:25 -0700
> > Subject: [johnson-18] Re: New (to us) boat. #152. Hello and Questions.
> > From: t...@barkusconsulting.com> To:johnson-18...@googlegroups.com
> _________________________________________________________________
> Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync.http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=PID23384::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:N...
on both the turnbuckle numbers). I take my mast down regularly and
leaving them set loose makes it easier to slide the forestay pin in.
Also I find that for my sails ( I had Haarstick, from NY, build them
several years back) that I need to bend the mast quite a lot to
flatten the main in more wind. Having the lowers loose allows the mast
to bend forward in the middle to flatten the main. It is cut fairly
deep for our light Chesapeake summers. When it really blows, I find
that having the uppers loose also helps to lean the mast backward
overall and tighten the fore stay tension to allow pointing/pinching
when overpowered. The rig does bounce quite a bit when too
overpowered (beating in puffs from mid to high 20s) and I have to blow
the main entirely, but it hasn't come down in a heap yet.
As far as point: jib car leads for my jib are fairly far back (1
forward from the aftmost car position or actually in the aftmost
position) and I tend not to bother adjusting them (though I probably
should) for less wind. Losing a little power from the top of the jib
doesn't seem to be the worst thing since it's small and closing the
jib's leach can interfere with the main's shape and wind adhesion.
Remember how big the main is compared to the jib and that the boat is
really powered by the main. If you move car too far forward, you can
start to get a bubble in the main from a sleight back winding.You
really have to shift gears in 5-7 knots of wind...you should start
with the jib eased 3-8 inches (clew to block). Make sure the boat
speed is maxed out on this trim BEFORE you start sneaking the jib
tighter. Even then you still should not sheet it more than 2 inches
from clew to the block for 5-8 knots. The key is really main trim,
make sure that you put a belly in the sail 6-8 inches of space between
the deepest part of the foot and the boom is about right for outhaul
tension for 5-8 knots. For cunningham tighten or loosen to achieve
small wrinkles in the luff. I suggest using no vang whatsoever (In
fact I rarely use the vang except running or reaching in big wind).
The main sheet will do fine for controlling the leach of the main.
You want to make sure that the two lower tails are flying all the time
(I have 4 tails on my main). I don't worry about trying to fly the top
tail with any regularity since with this much draft (belly) in the
sail, there is a significant curve in the head and top batten. I try
to make the second tail down flick back and forth with main trim
(sheet tension mostly). You need to work the main sheet in and out
around 6-12 inches usually in 5-7 knots with occasional minor
adjustments to the traveler (less wind = higher traveler, more wind =
lower traveler). Once you get more time at the helm you'll be able to
feel the boat (in adjusting to sleight pressure changes I usually feel
the heel change, and listen to the sound of the wake) when it gets a
little underpowered or overpowered and make the appropriate
adjustments to the main sheet while still watching you jib tails for
point. Usually, you want the traveler just high enough to get the
boom to center line, above center line is slow. I focus on sheeting
the main and less on the traveler, since it really lets me control how
closed or open the leach of the main is and grabbing the traveler line
is distracting from steering and watching the jib tales.. The windward
sheeting car is usually about 6 inches to a foot (max) above center
line. Do not pinch. Finally you should get the weight in the boat as
far forward as possible. Depending on your crew weight and the heel
you're trying to work (More heel in chop is better- to cut into the
waves with the gunwale v. flat is better for flat water) consider
having you crew sit on the low side- gunwale or in the bottom of the
boat and skipper moving forward of the traveler to sit on the high
side, and hike in the puffs as required- though the crew leaning
inward does the same thing. The less bubbles you hear the transom
cutting as the boat moves forward the better. If you have too much
weight in the back of the boat you will see a "crease" of water and
some bubbles (parallel to the transom) falling back into the smooth
flow coming off the transom. As you move weight forward in the boat
you will notice the "crease" moving farther away from the transom.
Move weight forward until the crease disappears and it's just a smooth
stream breaking cleanly from the training edge of the boat. To be
fair the boat doesn't point as well as some other boats in light wind.
The premium is on boat speed and smooth tacks and powering up before
getting into full point mode, which will help you generate better
point and speed by adding to your apparent wind. I confess I'm not as
diligent in watching the compass as I should be but my sense is that
the boat tacks through about 100 to 110 degrees, which would give you
50-55 degrees off the true wind direction.
Let us know how it works out!
-Brian
(Hull # 125)
On Aug 13, 1:31 pm, derek mckesson <dbmckes...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I don't use a Loos gauge, just feel, I set up the shroud adjusters so I can see the marks after rigging, and adjust to 2.5 on the outer(upper), and 2.0 on the inner, most importantly, the lowers are equal and soft so the mast can bend when not windy. As the wind builds, needs be raked back more, like my FD, too bad you can't (or aren't allowed to) adjust on the water.
>
>
>
> > Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2009 09:51:25 -0700
> > Subject: [johnson-18] Re: New (to us) boat. #152. Hello and Questions.
> Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync.http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=PID23384::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:N...
Rick Paullin
Aug 14, 2009, 10:12:26 AM8/14/09
to Johnson 18 One Design -2009
We've sailed our Jn-18s in an open fleet in Annapolis and pointed
about as well as other dinghies (Thistles, Lightnings, Snipes,
Vanguard 15s, etc.) which is about 45 degrees. In the light air you
described, I'd think that sail shape and steering should be your
primary concern.
1) Jib: sheeted very close to the turning block, but not pulled in so
hard that the draft is eliminated.
2) Main: boom right on the boat's centerline, with the traveller
adjusted so that the upper batten doesn't point to windward. (In very
light air, I usually have the traveller almost all the way to
windward.)
3) Heel: sail the boat very flat and don't pinch -- even if the bow
isn't pointed to windward, the lift from the foils should pull you up
to windward.
As long as your shrouds aren't overly tight or too loose, they
shouldn't be much of a factor in light air. But in windy conditions,
loose shrouds will hurt your pointing ability.
- Rick
about as well as other dinghies (Thistles, Lightnings, Snipes,
Vanguard 15s, etc.) which is about 45 degrees. In the light air you
described, I'd think that sail shape and steering should be your
primary concern.
1) Jib: sheeted very close to the turning block, but not pulled in so
hard that the draft is eliminated.
2) Main: boom right on the boat's centerline, with the traveller
adjusted so that the upper batten doesn't point to windward. (In very
light air, I usually have the traveller almost all the way to
windward.)
3) Heel: sail the boat very flat and don't pinch -- even if the bow
isn't pointed to windward, the lift from the foils should pull you up
to windward.
As long as your shrouds aren't overly tight or too loose, they
shouldn't be much of a factor in light air. But in windy conditions,
loose shrouds will hurt your pointing ability.
- Rick
derek mckesson
Aug 14, 2009, 11:04:20 AM8/14/09
to johnson-18...@googlegroups.com
Wonderfully perfectly explained!, much more eloquently than I ever could! Allthough my main is flatter than that, but all so true!
> Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 07:12:11 -0700
> Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 07:12:11 -0700
> Subject: [johnson-18] Re: New (to us) boat. #152. Hello and Questions.
jeadly
Aug 14, 2009, 11:19:21 AM8/14/09
to Johnson 18 One Design -2009
Oh yeah, its not tough to get Brian going on sail trim! Course, I
tend to glaze over after the first 5 minutes or so...
Sometimes I think of myself as a moderately trained monkey who pulls
levers when instructed to do so. I spose I do have a bit of spin trim
knowledge, so here's the secret. Always ease enough to keep it out
from behind the main (heat up briefly if you have to, easing tack and
halyard can help it float out) and never, ever, ever take your eyes
off the leading edge. Blinking is okay in moderation. That's about
it. The pointy end is real simple.
On Aug 14, 11:04 am, derek mckesson <dbmckes...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Wonderfully perfectly explained!, much more eloquently than I ever could! Allthough my main is flatter than that, but all so true!
>
>
>
> > Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 07:12:11 -0700
> > Subject: [johnson-18] Re: New (to us) boat. #152. Hello and Questions.
> > From: bdly...@gmail.com
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get free photo software from Windows Livehttp://www.windowslive.com/online/photos?ocid=PID23393::T:WLMTAGL:ON:...
tend to glaze over after the first 5 minutes or so...
Sometimes I think of myself as a moderately trained monkey who pulls
levers when instructed to do so. I spose I do have a bit of spin trim
knowledge, so here's the secret. Always ease enough to keep it out
from behind the main (heat up briefly if you have to, easing tack and
halyard can help it float out) and never, ever, ever take your eyes
off the leading edge. Blinking is okay in moderation. That's about
it. The pointy end is real simple.
On Aug 14, 11:04 am, derek mckesson <dbmckes...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Wonderfully perfectly explained!, much more eloquently than I ever could! Allthough my main is flatter than that, but all so true!
>
>
>
> > Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 07:12:11 -0700
> > Subject: [johnson-18] Re: New (to us) boat. #152. Hello and Questions.
> Get free photo software from Windows Livehttp://www.windowslive.com/online/photos?ocid=PID23393::T:WLMTAGL:ON:...
Five Cubed Skipper
Aug 14, 2009, 12:51:16 PM8/14/09
to Johnson 18 One Design -2009
Oh, also, there's a picture of my main on the "five cubed" profile
page if you want to compare it's depth to yours. check out the draft
stripes and amount of bend in the top two battens to get a sense of
how deep the sail is.
http://125.johnson18.org/
In the shot the main isn't trimmed, but the draft and outhaul tension
are about right for 5-8 knots. This was taken between races while
waiting for the sequence to start, so we were floating around and not
really tuning. The main's not crispy anymore, but I still love the way
you can shape the dacron. Haarstick did a great job for their first
swing at the J18 class.
-Brian
page if you want to compare it's depth to yours. check out the draft
stripes and amount of bend in the top two battens to get a sense of
how deep the sail is.
http://125.johnson18.org/
In the shot the main isn't trimmed, but the draft and outhaul tension
are about right for 5-8 knots. This was taken between races while
waiting for the sequence to start, so we were floating around and not
really tuning. The main's not crispy anymore, but I still love the way
you can shape the dacron. Haarstick did a great job for their first
swing at the J18 class.
-Brian
Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
0 new messages