In Western Yiddish areas of Ashkenaz, we find either [aw] or [ow]. I have heard /tawre/ in a synagogue in Paris many of whose members (or their ancestors) were from Alsace. Since some Western Yiddish speakers have lost the distinction between voiced and voiceless stops, one may also hear /dawre/ or /dowre/. The American Ashkenazic /ow/ may have originated in the Western Yiddish areas where the first Ashkenazim in America came from.
> ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Minden" <phmin...@arcor.de> > To: "Jewish Languages" <jewish-languages@googlegroups.com> > Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 8:40 AM > Subject: [Jewish Languages] Re: Where does the Ashkenazi "oy" sound come > from?
> Kindly correct me if I'm wrong:
> 1. As opposed to today's Israeli o, which varies between closed and open, > the massoretic o was closed (distinct from the more open קמץ). > 2. In Ashkenaz, this was diphthongised to ou as in the English 'bow', at > least in open syllables. "Core" Ashkenaz, i. e. Jews from South-Western > Germany and the neighbouring regions, stayed at this stage until today, > while > 3. the East fronted it to öü, which in turn was > 4. unrounded partly (Central/SE oi/öi) or entirely (NE ei).
> But the real question is: Where on earth does that first o and the a of > "torasoy" come from? Did you hear that right? (The expected would be > Litvish "teyrosey", Galitzianer "toyrusoy", YIVO/chareidi make-up > "toyrosoy" or the like.) This sounds like a case of heavy interference > from the Israeli standard, or "Baaltshuvish".
> Lipman Phillip Minden
>> I am a member of a synagogue where most of the members use the Israeli or >> Sephardi pronounciation of Hebrew. >> Some of our older members, however, stick to the Ashkenazi pronounciation >> which they learned, I imagine, as children. >> I was listening to such an individual this past Shabbat, as he chanted >> the blessings. >> Where I would pronounce the word "toratoh", he pronounced it as >> "torasoy." >> Now the t versus s pronunciation is well known as a difference between >> Sephardi Jews and Ashkenazi Jews, so we do not have to discuss that here. >> My question is: where on earth does that "oy" sound come from? >>David Pinto >> Montreal, Canada
> In Western Yiddish areas of Ashkenaz, we find either [aw] or [ow]. I have heard /tawre/ in a synagogue in Paris many of whose members (or their ancestors) were from Alsace. Since some Western Yiddish speakers have lost the distinction between voiced and voiceless stops, one may also hear /dawre/ or /dowre/. The American Ashkenazic /ow/ may have originated in the Western Yiddish areas where the first Ashkenazim in America came from.
> George Jochnowitz
AW: I left that out in order not to complicate the matter with other dialects. The ou developed into ao in Northern Germany, Denmark and Holland, and because it existed in the German standard as well (spelled au), as opposed to ou, it gained prestige and spread in other regions. Frankfurt's and so KAJ NY's ao was probably introduced by Hamburg's native R' S. R. Hirsch. (Alsace is mixed between ou and ao, and the ao there might be independent, given the "drastic" parallel change from å -> o -> ou.) I assume that the Hungarian (Central Ashk) and occasional Southern German long monophthongal o was re-formed from ou, maybe never much diphthongised in the first place.
T/D: the phonemic distinction is given up less often than one tends to think. A voiceless French T is often interpreted as a voiced D by speakers of English or a Scandinavian lanugage, who are used to strongly aspirate their plosives, for instance, and a Southern German D (as voiceless as their D, but lax, not tense) is often heard as a T by the French, who don't miss the aspiration, but expect the voicedness.
American OW: This is still being discussed, but probably doesn't come from Western Ashkenazic immigrants. It's more probable that this is meant to be a "long O", which invariably means OW in American English, just like other foreign words are adapted (beau = bow). Only more recently has the Israeli O been taught as AW, often inadvertantly = AH, constistently with many American dialects '(bottle -> buttle/bahdl).
On Mon, 7 Apr 2008, Minden wrote: > AW: I left that out in order not to complicate the matter with other >dialects. The ou developed into ao in Northern Germany, Denmark and >Holland, and because it existed in the German standard as well (spelled >au), as opposed to ou, it gained prestige and spread in other regions. >Frankfurt's and so KAJ NY's ao was probably introduced by Hamburg's >native R' S. R. Hirsch. (Alsace is mixed between ou and ao, and the ao >there might be independent, given the "drastic" parallel change from å -> >o -> ou.) I assume that the Hungarian (Central Ashk) and occasional >Southern German long monophthongal o was re-formed from ou, maybe never >much diphthongised in the first place.
I am surprised to read about the holem being pronounced as long [o:] in Hungarian Ashkenazic pronunciation. Except of modern/Israeli/"sfaradic" influence, the only pronunciation I have been hearing is [Ay], where [A] denotes a sound between [o] and [a], that is, a rounded [a], a phoneme existing in Hungarian, and most probably having an influence on the development of Ashkenazic pronunciation in Hungary.
Interestingly, the Western Ashkenazic [aw] was also used in Hungary before the Holocaust in liturgical context. It is unclear to me, however, how much it was a "native pronunciation" in families from Austrian or Moravian origin, and how much it was an artificial innovation copying the higher prestige Western-European traditions. The Hungarian Jewish lexicon (published in 1929, or so) follows the Ashkenazic pronunciation with respect to the tav without a dagesh lene and to the kamets, but transcribes holem as <o>. I guess, writing <aj> would have sounded to "Polish" to the editors, whereas for some reason they decided not to adopt <au> often employed in some newspapers. (The single person I can hear using [au] is my grandma...)
A puzzle for fun: which Jewish holiday is "schebouoth" (as I saw it on a hundred year old grave in the Pere Lachaise cemetery in Paris), that is, "sjovoengaus" (as written in old Dutch siddurim)? BTW, who knows more about the origin of Dutch "ng" for ayin (used both by Ashkenazim and the Portuguese community)?
>A puzzle for fun: which Jewish holiday is "schebouoth" (as I saw it on a >hundred year old grave in the Pere Lachaise cemetery in Paris), that is, >"sjovoengaus" (as written in old Dutch siddurim)? BTW, who knows more >about the origin of Dutch "ng" for ayin (used both by Ashkenazim and the >Portuguese community)?
Jews in Central Italy pronounce the letter `ayin as ngayin, with an initial velar nasal consonant (without a following stop). Jews in Northern Italy pronounce it with an initial palatal nasal, generally spelled gn- according to Italian orthographic practice, and the same sound as Spanish n-tilde.
On Tue, 8 Apr 2008, George Jochnowitz wrote: >> A puzzle for fun: which Jewish holiday is "schebouoth" (as I saw it on a >> hundred year old grave in the Pere Lachaise cemetery in Paris), that is, >> "sjovoengaus" (as written in old Dutch siddurim)? BTW, who knows more >> about the origin of Dutch "ng" for ayin (used both by Ashkenazim and the >> Portuguese community)?
> Jews in Central Italy pronounce the letter `ayin as ngayin, with an initial > velar nasal consonant (without a following stop). Jews in Northern Italy > pronounce it with an initial palatal nasal, generally spelled gn- according > to Italian orthographic practice, and the same sound as Spanish n-tilde.
Thanks, George! That's indeed interesting. So it seems that the velar nasal pronounciation of ayin is an old (European) pronounciation, maintained only at the most conservative periferies (as can be seen also in the conservatism of the same communities with respect to liturgy)?
Is the same pronounciation of ayin the source of the [n] in the Yiddish name "Yankev" from "Yaaqov"?
