names

[Sarah Bunin Benor]

Dear JL list:
Daniel Stuhlman asked me to post this here. I'm assuming Zanvil is Samuel in some Slavic language, but I'm not sure of the details. Can anyone help?

Sarah

------------------------------------------

From: "Daniel Stuhlman" <ddstu...@earthlink.net>
Subject: Linguistic question
Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2009 11:27 PM

I am doing research on Yiddish Hebrew name pairs. There is one pair
that I can't figure out how it evolved.
Is there anyone who know enough about Yiddish or European languages
to tell me how Shmuel becomes Zanvil in Yiddish?

Thanks,

Daniel Stuhlman
ddstu...@earthlink.net

[Dr. Avraham Ben-Rahamiėl Qanaļ]

Sarah,

 

        It comes from the Yiddish mispronunciation of the Central European pronunciation of the name Samuel. In the latter the S is pronounced like a Z and the W sound of the U became a V sound in Yiddish. The M before a consonant changes to an N like Yom Tov becomes Yontif. Thus, Samuel (Zamwel)becomes Zamvil which becomes Zanvil.

Avraham

 

[George Jochnowitz]

I assume the surname of Israel Zangwill is related to Zanvil. I have heard
the pronuciations Zanvil and Zaynvil (YIVO spelling), reflecting the
familiar dialect variations in Yiddish.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sarah Bunin Benor" <sbe...@huc.edu>
To: <jewish-l...@googlegroups.com>; <ddstu...@earthlink.net>

[jo...@research.haifa.ac.il]

Zangvil is 'ginger' (the spice) in Hebrew.
John

------------------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Webmail Program of Haifa University

[Minden]

Why would this be a mispronunciation rather than a pronunciation?

[Dr. Avraham Ben-Rahamiėl Qanaļ]

Alexis,

 

        To be more specific, Italian, Friulian, Ladin, Romansch, and Bavarian German, and their pronunciation in Yiddish. Samuele, the Italian/Friulian/Ladin/Romanch equivalent of Shemu’el, is pronounced Zamwel(e). Ashkenazim living in northern Italian and the Italian speaking part of Austria are referred to in Italian documents as “Samuele (Zanwil)” Cf. Pasque di Sangue (Ariel Toaff, 2007) Ebrei d’Europa e omicidi rituali, chapter III, page 56, speaking of 15th century Trento, “Tuttavia, quando maestro Tobia aveva preso residenza in città, non aveva trovato che una famiglia ebraica, quella del prestatore di denaro Samuele (Zanwil) di Seligman, proveiente da Norimberga in Baviera, che si era stabilita a Trento un anno prima. . . .Pur essendo vissuto fin dalla nascita in Italia . . . . forse non aveva più l’yiddish come madre ligua . . . .”

Avraham

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Alexis Manaster Ramer

To: aqa...@facsl.com

Cc: sbe...@huc.edu

Sent: Monday, 20 April, 2009 09:55

Subject: Re: [Jewish Languages] Re: names

define central european.

---

From: Dr. Avraham Ben-Rahamiël Qanaï <aqa...@facsl.com>
To: jewish-languages <jewish-l...@googlegroups.com>; sbe...@huc.edu
Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 6:49:50 AM
Subject: [Jewish Languages] Re: names

[Dr. Avraham Ben-Rahamiėl Qanaļ]

George,

 

        The name Zangwill is probably derived from Zanwil with confusion with the Hebrew/Aramaic word Zangevil [ginger].

Avraham

 

----- Original Message -----

From: George Jochnowitz

To: sbe...@huc.edu ; jewish-l...@googlegroups.com ; ddstu...@earthlink.net

Sent: Monday, 20 April, 2009 10:22

Subject: [Jewish Languages] Re: names

[Dr. Avraham Ben-Rahamiėl Qanaļ]

George,

 

        Hardly. Toaff (from the family of the chief Rabbi of Rome) here is just listing the Jews that were in 15th century Trento.

Avraham

 

----- Original Message -----

From: George Jochnowitz

To: aqa...@facsl.com

Sent: Monday, 20 April, 2009 12:16

Subject: Re: [Jewish Languages] Re: names

And was this Zanwil one of the Jews who killed Christian children in order to use their blood for ritual purposes, according to Ariel Toaff? 

[Dr. Avraham Ben-Rahamiël Qanaï]

Daniel,

 

        Zangevil [ginger] is not Biblical, but it is Talmudic (8-9 years before the development of Yiddish). It occurs in Talmud Bavli Yoma 81b and Berakhot 36b and is derived from the Greek ζιγγιβερις (cf. the Arabic زنجبيل ).

 

        Again, I did not say the name was derived from Zangevil, but that it is possible that the name Zanwil/Zanvil was confused with the word Zangevil due to a similarity in pronunciation, giving rise to the pronunciation Zangwill/Zangvil,

Avraham

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Daniel Stuhlman

To: "Dr. Avraham Ben-Rahamiël Qanaï"

Sent: Monday, 20 April, 2009 13:07

Subject: Re: [Jewish Languages] Re: names

At 11:48 AM 04/20/2009, you wrote:

Daniel,
 
        I didn’t say there was a linguistic or historical connection between the words, but, rather, that it is possible that the pronunciation of Zanwil as Zangwil may derive from CONFUSION of the name with the Hebrew/Aramaic word Zangevil [ginger]. Just like the term Bove Mayse (the Yiddish romance of the medieval knight Bova d’Antona [Bevis of Hampton]) became Bobe Mayse (grandmother’s tale) due to the confusion of the name Bova [Bevis] with the Eastern Yiddish word Bobe [grandmother].

Avraham

The Hebrew word is not Biblical.  It is probably from the Latin.  Zanvil was a name before zangwell became a Hebrew word.

DS

Daniel Stuhlman

Chicago, IL 

ddstuhlman at earthlink.net

Blog:  http://kol-safran.blogspot.com/

[Dr. Avraham Ben-Rahamiėl Qanaļ]

Martin,

 

        Exactly. Italian Salomone (German Salomon) becomes Zalman in Yiddish.

Avraham

----- Original Message -----

From: Martin Jacobs

To: aqa...@facsl.com

Sent: Monday, 20 April, 2009 13:52

Subject: Re: [Jewish Languages] Re: names

Compare the parallel "Zalman" from "Solomon".
Martin

--- On Mon, 4/20/09, Dr. Avraham Ben-Rahamiël Qanaï <aqa...@facsl.com> wrote:

> From: Dr. Avraham Ben-Rahamiël Qanaï <aqa...@facsl.com>
> Subject: [Jewish Languages] Re: names
> To: "jewish-languages" <jewish-l...@googlegroups.com>, sbe...@huc.edu
> Date: Monday, April 20, 2009, 9:49 AM
> Sarah,
>
>         It comes from the Yiddish mispronunciation of the
> Central European pronunciation of the name Samuel. In the
> latter the S is pronounced like a Z and the W sound of the U
> became a V sound in Yiddish. The M before a consonant
> changes to an N like Yom Tov becomes Yontif. Thus, Samuel
> (Zamwel)becomes Zamvil which becomes Zanvil.

>                       Avraham
>
>   ----- Original Message -----