Fw: Re: [jewish-funerals] Parents kept from funerals of stillborns in Israel

Laurie Dinerstein-Kurs

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Mar 6, 2012, 10:59:06 PM3/6/12

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At a Kavod v'Nachum conference, several years back - I had the opportunity to schmooze with a religious guy - I believe - perhaps even chabad...and I seem to recall he lived in CA.

Anyway, in the course of the converation, which was on burial rites - he expressed how Jewish burial rites were so complete.......I mentioned that when I had had a miscarriage years before, there was nothing in our tradition to acknowledge the life that was lost...as if I had not been pregnant for several months. The anticipation, expectation, and hope all died along with the life. How much more painful can it be to lose a child after it is actually born....my heart goes out to anyone who experiences this!

BACK THEN - The Rabbis didn't address the loss - as Judaism does not address the loss - not of potential life - or even the death of a baby under 31 days. But, the Rabbis do have a very strong conviction of potential life when it comes to menstruation and ejaculation. Sadly, the "potential" for "potential" trumps actual.

What were the rabbis thinking when they thought to ignore these heartrending situations??? Ignoring the loss and death may help the rabbis to move on - but it does nothing for their flock.

The beauty of burial and of Shiva is the degree to which it attends to the spirit and in some way helps to foster acceptance and deal with grief. Jewish parents are left to their own and on therir own to deal with such tragedy. I mentioned to this gentlemen that I feel the rabbis have done an injustice and major blunder when they failed to consider the feelings of a woman who has had life within her...taken away so "prematurely". An then, to add to the misery of loss - no rituals to help one through, no prayers, no communal rites, no acknowledgement of loss....just silence. There is no rachmones in our tradition for the mother...let alone the father.

He said he never realized this issue existed and was somewhat apologetic for the lack of compassion in our tradition...not that he can change it.....wait a minute.....of course he can!

I wonder if he has even attempted. to bring change into his community - or if he even remembers our conversation.

With the advent of women becoming rabbis...many new rituals and prayers have been written and brought into the community.

While a boy has always been welcomed as an "adult" when he turns 13, more recently gilrs too - now girls are offered the opportunity to engage another rite - a rite that has been advanced as a coming of age for a girl - acknowledging her "potential" in a new way ... that when a girl begins to menstruate - to afford her the opportunity to positively acknowlwdge her new status with other women who will celebrate her! A celebration, a party, a card, some flowers..however deemed appropriate for that young girl to allow her to be acknoweldged and welcomed.

The women have composed:
Prayers/rites, rituals for miscarriage, and rituals to embrace the grief.
Prayers/ritres/rituals for diffculties in becoming pregnant.
Prayers/rites/rituals for menopause.

So, I would like to believe that the genetlemen with whom I spoke actually was moved to do something.
I would like to believe that our OLD standards have been moved aside for a new and more postive apporach.
I would like to think that our tradition is niot cloised...tha tit can expand to the degree whrn there has been an error...it can be fixed.

THIS tradition of ignoring loss and death of YOUNG life has got to be fixed!!

- Original Message -----

From: cil...@comcast.net

Sent: 03/06/12 04:26 PM

To: jewish-...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [jewish-funerals] Parents kept from funerals of stillborns in Israel

May you be comforted among the mourners of Jerusalem and Zion. I know it was a long time ago, and I know the mourning never ends.

Susan

------------------------------------------------
Read my mind at www.kissamezuzah.blogspot.com

From: "Marc Barinbaum" <mach...@ryamar.com>
To: jewish-...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 6, 2012 12:47:43 PM
Subject: [jewish-funerals] Parents kept from funerals of stillborns in Israel

Troubling article. I can relate since we buried our 17 day old son in 1986.

Marc Barinbaum

Report criticizes Religious Services Ministry for failing to compel burial societies to permit parents to attend funerals.

http://www.jpost.com/JewishWorld/JewishNews/Article.aspx?id=260628

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Tree McCurdy

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Mar 7, 2012, 11:07:00 AM3/7/12

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Thank you, Laurie. This was beautifully written.

I also want to recognize the beauty of the expectations we have of our
Jewish way.

All of this is happening within a greater mainstream context of
tremendous denial and repression. I've had so many experiences
comforting bereaved parents, both Jewish and non-Jewish, and with the
absolute insanity they face in this great unspoken myth that somehow
if we ignore this particular pain it will go away. For many years the
only book I could get hold of to guide me was Kohner and Henley's
_When a Baby Dies_ from HarperCollins, now 20 years old and still
profoundly relevant because there is such a gap between the
conventional approaches and what research and experience indicate.

It is beautiful that we are expecting the Jewish way to step forward
where others have turned aside; that we demand Jews care where it is
conventional not to care.

-- Talya

Sheryl

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Mar 7, 2012, 1:53:47 PM3/7/12

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Very well written

Ellen Barnett Cleary

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Mar 7, 2012, 4:12:52 PM3/7/12

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I think it's important we not sell our sages short. We live in a very
different time than they did.

I am a genealogy researcher and have spent a great deal of time reading
death certificates. It is amazing how many infants died in the not so
distant past. I think our sages knew all too well that if we mourned
miscarriages, stillbirths, and infant deaths, we would never stop mourning.

It is wonderful that we are developing ceremonies to mark these events.
They are fraught with emotion and pain. It is a miracle that they are
now happening with much less frequency, so that we can take the time to
mourn.

Ellen Barnett Cleary
Congregation Emanu-El & Congregation Sha'ar Zahav
San Francisco, CA

Laurie Dinerstein-Kurs

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Mar 7, 2012, 6:37:50 PM3/7/12

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Thank you for your kind words.

I can't help but wonder...
What could possess the rabbis of yore to even THINK mothers would be indiffernt to the loss of "their" life...that, that "potential" is "theirs" - the mothers, and we bond, adore and anticipate life - yet the very rabbis who promote kavod during Tahara, grief at a funeral, compassion at the shiva house, shloshim, yarzeit....with absolute coldness and distance - usurped our right to acknowledge our loss.

I have no other explanation except as rabbis (men) they have NO CLUE regarding the experience of learning there is a new life growing inside one's body. The changes the mother feels, the growth, the girth, the movement....are not easily translated to someone who has never experienced it. Apparently - their original 2 minutes of participation does not afford them any bond to what is yet to be. They may be duly excited when "their" child is actually born...but, for their ability to ignore the early loss - leaves me to believe - they have absolutley not clue. They want the finished product (a son) ...to study Torah ..or to bring to a daughter to a chupa so that the daughtrer can have a child (preferabloy a boy to learn Torah).

I supopse it is no wonder that they had no problem ignoring and treating so lightly the very loss a mom feels so deeply. My child, had they survived would be 42. My heart is still pained and the loss is still great. And so what if it is 42 years.....time does not erase the loss of potential, or that my children would have had an older sibling, and they never had the chance to meet, that perhaps that growing infant could have............................

Laurie D-K

----- Original Message -----

From: Tree McCurdy

Sent: 03/07/12 11:07 AM

To: jewish-...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: Fw: Re: [jewish-funerals] Parents kept from funerals of stillborns in Israel

 
Thank you, Laurie.  This was beautifully written. 

I also want to recognize the beauty of the expectations we have of our 
Jewish way. 

All of this is happening within a greater mainstream context of 
tremendous denial and repression.    I've had so many experiences 
comforting bereaved parents, both Jewish and non-Jewish, and with the 
absolute insanity they face in this great unspoken myth that somehow 
if we ignore this particular pain it will go away.  For many years the 
only book I could get hold of to guide me was Kohner and Henley's 
_When a Baby Dies_ from HarperCollins, now 20 years old and still 
profoundly relevant because there is such a gap between the 
conventional approaches and what research and experience indicate. 

It is beautiful that we are expecting the Jewish way to step forward 
where others have turned aside; that we demand Jews care where it is 
conventional not to care. 

-- Talya 

On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 7:59 PM, Laurie Dinerstein-Kurs <bu...@yours.com

> wrote: 
> 
> At a Kavod v'Nachum conference, several years back - I had the opportunity 
> to schmooze with a religious guy - I believe - perhaps even chabad...and I 
> seem to recall he lived in CA. 
> 
> Anyway, in the course of the converation, which was on burial rites - he 
> expressed how Jewish burial rites were so complete.......I mentioned that 
> when I had had a miscarriage years before, there was nothing in our 
> tradition to acknowledge the life that was lost...as if I had not been 
> pregnant for several months.  The anticipation, expectation, and hope all 
> died along with the life.  How much more painful can it be to lose a child 
> after it is actually born....my heart goes out to anyone who experiences 
> this! 
> 
> BACK THEN - The Rabbis didn't address the loss - as Judaism does not address 
> the loss - not of potential life - or even the death of a baby under 31 
> days.   But, the Rabbis do have a very strong conviction of potential life 
> when it comes to menstruation and  ejaculation.   Sadly, the "potential" for 
> "potential" trumps actual. 
> 
> What were the rabbis thinking when they thought to ignore these heartrending 
> situations???  Ignoring the loss and death may help the rabbis to move on - 
> but it does nothing for their flock. 
> 
> The beauty of burial and of Shiva is the degree to which it attends to the 
> spirit and in some way helps to foster acceptance and deal with grief. 
> Jewish parents are left to their own and on therir own to deal with such 
> tragedy.   I mentioned to this gentlemen that I feel the rabbis have done an 
> injustice and major blunder when they failed to consider the feelings of a 
> woman who has had life within her...taken away so "prematurely".   An then, 
> to add to the misery of loss - no rituals to help one through, no prayers, 
> no communal rites, no acknowledgement of loss....just silence.   There is no 
> rachmones in our tradition for the mother...let alone the father. 
> 
> He said he never realized this issue existed and was somewhat apologetic for 
> the lack of compassion in our tradition...not that he can change it.....wait 
> a minute.....of course he can! 
> 
> I wonder if he has even attempted. to bring change into his community - or 
> if he even remembers our conversation. 
> 
> With  the advent of women becoming rabbis...many new rituals and prayers 
> have been written and brought into the community. 
> 
> While a boy has always been welcomed as an "adult" when he turns 13, more 
> recently gilrs too -  now girls are offered the opportunity to engage 
> another rite - a rite that has been advanced as a coming of age for a girl - 
> acknowledging her "potential" in a new way ... that when a girl begins to 
> menstruate - to afford her the opportunity to positively acknowlwdge her new 
> status with other women who will celebrate her!   A celebration, a party, a 
> card, some flowers..however deemed appropriate for that young girl to allow 
> her to be acknoweldged and welcomed. 
> 
> The women have composed: 
> Prayers/rites, rituals for miscarriage, and rituals to embrace the grief. 
> Prayers/ritres/rituals for diffculties in becoming pregnant. 
> Prayers/rites/rituals for menopause. 
> 
> So,  I would like to believe that the genetlemen with whom I spoke actually 
> was moved to do something. 
> I would like to believe that our OLD standards have been moved aside for a 
> new and more postive apporach. 
> I would like to think that our tradition is niot cloised...tha tit can 
> expand to the degree whrn there has been an error...it can be fixed. 
> 
> THIS tradition of ignoring loss and death of YOUNG life has got to be 
> fixed!! 
> 
> 
> 
> - Original Message ----- 
> 
> From: cil...@comcast.net 
> 
> Sent: 03/06/12 04:26 PM 
> 
> To: jewish-...@googlegroups.com 
> 
> Subject: Re: [jewish-funerals] Parents kept from funerals of stillborns in 
> Israel 
> 
> 
> May you be comforted among the mourners of Jerusalem and Zion. I know it was 
> a long time ago, and I know the mourning never ends. 
> 
> 
> 
> Susan 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------ 
> Read my mind at www.kissamezuzah.blogspot.com 
> 
> ________________________________ 
> From: "Marc Barinbaum" <mach...@ryamar.com> 
> To: jewish-...@googlegroups.com 
> Sent: Tuesday, March 6, 2012 12:47:43 PM 
> Subject: [jewish-funerals] Parents kept from funerals of stillborns in 
> Israel 
> 
> Troubling article. I can relate since we buried our 17 day old son in 1986. 
> 
> 
> 
> Marc Barinbaum 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Report criticizes Religious Services Ministry for failing to compel burial 
> societies to permit parents to attend funerals. 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.jpost.com/JewishWorld/JewishNews/Article.aspx?id=260628 

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Deborah Brown

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Mar 7, 2012, 7:28:33 PM3/7/12

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Chapter II, paragraph 1 from Semachot says: "A one-day-old infant who died is, to his father, mother, and all his relatives, like a full-fledged bridegroom; and not only an infant who had lived for a whole day, but even one whose head or the greater part of whose body had emerged alive - the Sages having spoken merely in terms of what generally happens." In paragraph 3, we get "Rabbi Meir said in the name of Rabbi Eleazar ben Azariah: "Whenever a child is known to the community, the public takes part in his rites; whenever a child is not known to the community, the public does not take part in his rites.' Rabbi said in the name of Rabbi Eleazar ben Azariah: 'Even if he was known only to his neighbors.' "

Dov Zlotnick's notes say that paragraph 1 means that "only the family and not the public should participate in the rites." He says that "known to the community" means "accustomed to leaving the house and attending synagogue, but again if "only the neighbors" know the child, the whole community is to participate.

So at least in the case of the not-even-one-day-old infant, it would seem that the rites would be like those of a bridegroom, i.e. regular rites! And when a child is loved before birth by the family and the community, they surely "know" the child and thus should be able to take part in the rites. Some of the other paragraphs are more negative about rites for such a child, but there does not seem to be a fast rule here, but different traditions.

Of course I agree that the tradition needs to be changed in this day and age, but here the tradition seems better than the Jerusalem burial societies present it. The infant is "like a full-fledged bridegroom to his family." A lovely phrase that indicates the whole hoped-for life of the lost child.

Deborah Brown

Wilmette, IL

libby

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Mar 8, 2012, 11:03:04 AM3/8/12

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I agree that this is the most likely explanation. At a time of higher
birth rates and higher infant mortality rates, it made sense to the
sages. There are other cultures that traditionally did not give a child
a name right away until one was more certain of newborn viability. Even
so, I'm pretty sure the birth mothers at the time felt just as sad about
the loss of a child as we do today. Many of us, myself included, have
lost children and grandchildren due to miscarriages, stillbirths, and
infant deaths -- it happens naturally to all species -- the amazing
thing is that we can now save so many lives thanks to modern medical
advances. Mothers and their families will continue to mourn the loss of
children, the potential life cut short, regardless of whether or not
tradition acknowledges those feelings. As others on the list have
pointed out, today we can and do choose to create new mourning rituals
in response. I think the Reconstructionist movement has been
particularly good about responding to changing social attitudes in
meaningful ways, including readings and rituals appropriate for infant
death; see their "Kol Haneshamah: Prayers for a House of Mourning."

Libby

Laurie Dinerstein-Kurs

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Mar 9, 2012, 12:16:40 AM3/9/12

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I have to disagree somewhat with what was written...in particular with the phrase, "we not sell our sages short".
I say this because, (and with no more proof than anyone else) that I do believe that no matter how many of her children may die, the mother feels the pain. For the interpretation to be that the sages were right - suggesting that by virtue of losing other children - THIS one won't be missed....could have only been written by someone who was never pregnant or given birth. I am not willing to brush aside the grief of mothers to accomodate the belief of sages - sages who never gave birth.
One could extapolate that the sages, not wishing to be inundated with infant deaths and the mothers grief that would follow - would be too overwhelmed with funerals, condolence calls, and the need for words of compassion and hope....possibly not an area they were comfortable with.

If we have brachas for mezzuzas, and brachos for eating fruit, and brachos for just about anything.....it is just too far off the scale to not realize certain prayes/rituals were left out deliberately.... deliberately - in the sense i feel the sages in no way had a clue the depth of grief and sadness that can be in a heart of a mother.

I am sure that in their mind...the death was just one more death, and while sad...hardly anything worth acknowledging. After all - HE probably thinks: Give her time - and she will probably become pregnant again. . and have another. 42 years later...I still gieve the death of hat may have been. The sadness that never leaves as the awareness that there is one less sacred soul in the world. That all my long arduous efforts of creating every hair, every nail, the eyebrows and more....was for naught. At some time in the day she IS with child...and then....sometime in that same day.....she is not. Who would ever venture to even suggest that that day is like all others and that that day should not be acknowldged in some way? Only some SAGE!

I think the idea that one can replace another is solely in the mind of someone who does not carry sacred life in them. A Sage.

So, as you can see...I don't put too much credennce in the "Sages". They developed a fair amount of "brachos" when they merely "snipped" off some at a bris...but offered absolutely nothing when the entire being was 'snipped"!!

Laurie

----- Original Message -----

From: libby

Sent: 03/08/12 11:03 AM

To: jewish-...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [jewish-funerals] Our traditions regarding stillbirths, infant deaths, and miscarriages

I agree that this is the most likely explanation. At a time of higher 
birth rates and higher infant mortality rates, it made sense to the 
sages. There are other cultures that traditionally did not give a child 
a name right away until one was more certain of newborn viability. Even 
so, I'm pretty sure the birth mothers at the time felt just as sad about 
the loss of a child as we do today. Many of us, myself included, have 
lost children and grandchildren due to miscarriages, stillbirths, and 
infant deaths -- it happens naturally to all species -- the amazing 
thing is that we can now save so many lives thanks to modern medical 
advances. Mothers and their families will continue to mourn the loss of 
children, the potential life cut short, regardless of whether or not 
tradition acknowledges those feelings. As others on the list have 
pointed out, today we can and do choose to create new mourning rituals 
in response. I think the Reconstructionist movement has been 
particularly good about responding to changing social attitudes in 
meaningful ways, including readings and rituals appropriate for infant 
death; see their "Kol Haneshamah: Prayers for a House of Mourning." 

Libby 

Ellen Barnett Cleary wrote: 
> I think it's important we not sell our sages short.  We live in a very 
> different time than they did. 
> 
> I am a genealogy researcher and have spent a great deal of time 
> reading death certificates.  It is amazing how many infants died in 
> the not so distant past.  I think our sages knew all too well that if 
> we mourned miscarriages, stillbirths, and infant deaths, we would 
> never stop mourning. 
> 
> It is wonderful that we are developing ceremonies to mark these 
> events.  They are fraught with emotion and pain.  It is a miracle that 
> they are now happening with much less frequency, so that we can take 
> the time to mourn. 
> 
> Ellen Barnett Cleary 
> Congregation Emanu-El & Congregation Sha'ar Zahav 
> San Francisco, CA 
> 

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Sandra Ottenberg

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Mar 9, 2012, 11:09:33 AM3/9/12

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I used to work as an RN in the Delivery room and the intensive care nursery. Many times I was forbidden by the dr. to show the baby that was a stillborn. But I went against them and let the parents hold the stillborn it still was their child. As far as funerals that was a subject of its own. They baby was in the morgue and the parents were told just to forget the child. That was 25 years ago. Do not know what they do now. I still remember the grief the parents went through when their small infant died after a few days and sometimes months. I tried to help. We used to give a footprint and lock of hair . My dog passed away a few years ago and the vet gave me a paw print and a lock of his hair I still have it with his photo. I am sure some the parents must have the lock of hair that I gave them. This is a very hard subject to talk about.

Sandy

Simcha Raphael

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Mar 13, 2012, 9:12:02 PM3/13/12

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Many years ago, my wife and I created a Miscarriage Ritual after she
had had a miscarriage of triplets. It was a very healing experience.
It was near Tu B'Shevat and we grounded our ritual in the theme of
planting of new seeds, new life.

The liturgy of that ritual is described on my website ->
http://www.simcharaphael.com/lrf6.html

This is an example of how Jewish tradition is evolving new rituals
practices in our times.

Simcha Raphael, Ph.D.
Death Awareness Educator
DAAT - Death Awareness Advocacy and Training

libby

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Mar 13, 2012, 10:10:53 PM3/13/12

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Dear Simcha and Geela Rayzel,

So heart-breakingly honest and beautifully written. Thank you for
sharing your link about the loss of your babies via miscarriage near Tu
B-Shevat. I cried when I read it. Yes, "Jewish tradition is evolving new
ritual practices in our times" in so many ways.

Libby

Laurie Dinerstein-Kurs

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Mar 13, 2012, 10:58:58 PM3/13/12

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Yes, it is uplifting to realize that mostly in our generation - new understandings have generated changes. Sad to say, that for the most part, the OLDER generation has not yet wholeheartedly grasped that concept.

I feel privileged and blessed to be part of the evolving of Judaism, and am thrilled that my grandchildren (all 10 - I love to throw that in when an opening presents itself

) and all the up and coming generations will have the opportunity to benefit from Simcha, and the others who have stepped up and created new rituals and written new prayers and composed original readings, and describe new healing experiences - all so very needed. Thank You!!!

This is not your grandmothers' Judaism!!

----- Original Message -----

From: Simcha Raphael

Sent: 03/13/12 09:12 PM

To: jewish-funerals

Subject: [jewish-funerals] Re: Miscarriage rituals

 
Many years ago, my wife and I created a Miscarriage Ritual after she 
had had a miscarriage of triplets. It was a very healing experience. 
It was near Tu B'Shevat and we grounded our ritual in the theme of 
planting of new seeds, new life. 

The liturgy of that ritual is described on my website -> 
http://www.simcharaphael.com/lrf6.html

 

This is an example of how Jewish tradition is evolving new rituals 
practices in our times. 

Simcha Raphael, Ph.D. 
Death Awareness Educator 
DAAT - Death Awareness Advocacy and Training 

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Kerry Swartz

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Mar 14, 2012, 5:44:57 PM3/14/12

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I have great sympathy for any parent(s), grandparent(s) or others who
have lost a child and I clearly acknowledge the disconnect between
Orthodox precepts and the world in which we live today, especially on
this topic. I think it’s also important to remember this thread
started by discussing the terrible conflict a grieving couple had when
they came up against the Orthodox institutions that dominate where they
live.

“This is not your grandmothers' Judaism!!”

Let me tell you about my grandmothers Judaism. She and my grandfather,
once a Rabbi in Poland, had five children between the wars. Two died
within hours or days of birth, the other at 3 or 4 years from a
sickness that took many children from their community. The newborns
were not named and my mother, born after they migrated to Canada, doesn
’t recall the older child’s name.

My grandfather was “drafted” by the Polish army to make uniforms and
by the late 1920s he had seen enough to know where Europe was headed.
So they packed up what they could and came to Canada; my grandmother
pregnant with her sixth child, my mother, along with their two
remaining children. They settled in Canada and instead of returning to
a religious life, my Zaida opened a tailoring shop with his brother
(also “drafted”). They spent whatever spare monies they had getting
as much of their family out before and after the war. They brought many
relatives over including four cousins; two pairs of surviving Mengele
twins.

On several occasions I asked Baba about her lost children and she never
once batted an eye, saying “that was how things were”, she couldn’t
mourn long for those she didn’t know and that her life was so full of
joy with her surviving children and grandchildren, it was something she
said she never dwelled on. Perhaps it was her Jewish beliefs, her
customs, the milieu in which this all took place that shaped her world
view about the death of her children. I just know that her Orthodox
understanding of her world “then” let her move forward.

In my own experience, my first wife and I tried to have children in our
mid 30s which, as any physician will tell you, isn’t the best time to
start. Doctors often referred to us as being infertile while I (and as
far as I could bring my wife along at the time) persisted with the
mindset that we were simply “not pregnant yet”. During the second and
third years of trying to have children my wife had two miscarriages,
one at about 18 weeks, the second at about 21 weeks. Of course we felt
devastated, grief stricken, very much alone and completely unsupported.
The hospital counselor visited with us but there was never any
followup, no sense of lost life on the part of the medical staff, just
a failed pregnancy. Since we were both pro-choice and believed - at
least until this whole process started - that life began at birth, I
believe this may well have helped mitigate some of the pain and loss we
might otherwise have experienced. I think that if we had imbued the
fetuses we lost with living human characteristics, we might never have
survived. I also think my immediate switch from “we’re not pregnant
yet” to “ we’ve just not had a baby yet” attitude kept us going.
After four years of trying, and with the help of some blessed medical
specialists, we conceived our first born daughter naturally who was
naturally delivered at full term. Our second daughter arrived 20 months
later. Their mother and I are now divorced, happily remarried and have
a business-like co-parenting relationship of our teenage daughters.

My point is that I too - by the understanding and beliefs of a number
of people who have posted in this thread - have experienced the loss of
a child. Yet, as difficult as it was at the time, the loss seemed more
like one of potential than of an actual person. I have no doubt my
views would be different had each of those pregnancies lasted longer or
even went to term. But I understand the view of traditional Judaism on
this matter and have no doubt it helped shape my Baba’s losses as
things she was able to move through.

Today I think it’s merciless for anyone to deny the right or need of
another to mourn the loss of someone or something precious to them.
And, there is no question that there are segments of Judaism today that
are simply ignorant or indifferent to this. That said, when I begin
reading about liturgical rituals for miscarriages - and I know that
they represent a significant advancement of thought and process to
offer healing and comfort - I can’t say that such a process would have
been helpful in my case. If anything, it very might have reified our
apparent infertility which could have been just as devastating.

I think these practices have come about as wonderful templates for
growth and change in our models of bereavement efforts, but I have some
trouble linking their emergence with something inherently lacking in
our religion. You’re right when you say this isn’t your grandmother’
s Judaism and to some extent that saddens me.

I think the real point of this thread shouldn’t be seen in isolation
as Judaism not accommodating the needs of parents who seek but are
unable to grieve for their lost children. Instead I think it should be
viewed as part of a larger tension between the growth and influence of
fervent Orthodoxy and those who are unable or unwilling to be part of
it.

Laurie Dinerstein-Kurs

unread,

Mar 15, 2012, 9:48:51 AM3/15/12

to jewish-...@googlegroups.com

Kerry,
I am saddened to learn of your gramma's plight. And I can appreciate her reactions. I would add to that though - there is probably a wide and varied spectrum of response. I would also offer that denial has its place. That encouragement of short memory is not necessarily bad. Additionally, I am not the least bit uncomfortable with how others perceive, accept, deny the realities of death.

I do have a problem with assumptions, and some misplaced dogma. Whatever your gramma said and reported...either very accuate OR perhaps her way of not discussing what can't be changed...may or may not truly describe what was in her heart.

Every woman embraces her pregnancy in her own personal way. What that pregnancy means to her - is unique to her - in that she comes to terms with what befalls her in her own way. When Sages involved themselves in how THEY perceive how SHE SHOULD view the situation...that is troubling to me.   I am not a believer in the baby factory mentality. But, that may have been needed to live through the experience of infant death NOT being acknowledged.

I would add that people, particulalory women of earlier times - found themselves following "dogma" that they may have disagreed with...but was EXPECTED to follow.   (widow HAD to marry a brother-in-law,etc) There was public embarassment, harassment, disenfranchised, etc...for Not following the Sages pronouncements. That doesn't make it less painful to follow.

If the Sages had the woman in mind...they could have offered comforting "rituals" that she could participate in IF SHE CHOSE. If you choose to eat fruit...there is a bracha. If you choose to acknowledge the death..there should have been something.

I guess one could relate it to Bat Mitzva - which was never thought to be on the radar screen of girls ...but, time has proven that many orthodox girls do need and want recognition too...and so - today...many ortho communities include some form of recognition when girls turn 12.   They take advantage of the opportunity IF THEY CHOOSE TO.

So, as some here have related a personal experience, I relate mine. I am the woman who was pregnagnt almost 4 months who suffered a miscarriage ... and my faith offered no comfort.

I threw my guts up for 2 months...on the train and in the classroom. I have never voluntarily eaten a cracker since - without remembering. I worked so hard on creating every nail and each strand of hair... I lost a waist and gained a ton. I had a new wardrobe, and shoes for my now fat swollen feet. I have never heard of a loss that didn't bring back the painful memories of that day. I can only assume that that baby might have been as big as my others ...almost 10 lbs. Or, maybe itsy bitsy in comparison.....

Over the years, each time I have been asked "how many children do you have"....is another sad reminder.

For any woman who can walk away wthout needing any resolution, any comforting words, rituals or such: Yahser Koach. The Sages did well by you. But, that leaves those of us who are not - to suffer in an unwanted silence.........The sages did not consider us.

My planned, wanted, expected, anticipated, loved, bonded to, lost opportunity is always in my heart.

I do not dwell on this every waking moment...but, when the issue of Jewish views of infant death arise...I will jump right into the frey for the need for Jewish involvement!

Laurie D-K

----- Original Message -----

From: Kerry Swartz

Sent: 03/14/12 05:44 PM

To: jewish-...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [jewish-funerals] Re: Miscarriage rituals