Why believe?

[Drafterman]

I'm not sure how non-believers are accepted here, but I am interested
in serious philosophical discussions about reasons to believe the
basic premise of theism (A god exists) in general, and Christianity
specifically.

I'm not here to belittle or make fun of anyone, but a large portion of
the population has basically adopted the stance that, not only should
I believe, but not doing so presents a great risk. In light of this, I
can only ask, "Why"?

So ... Why?

[Peter VanGee]

Hi Drafterman:

 

Interesting that your email came in at 10:23.  Twenty three being shorthand for 2/3=.666  For example, many professional athletes wear the number 23.  Although there are a few good ones, a more self-centered bunch you may never meet.

 

All that being said, I've never met an honest atheist.  Which is a nice way of saying, I think you're full of it.

 

Why should you believe?  Pick up the Bible.  Read the story of Jonah.  Its about 3 pages long, the most it will take you is an evening.  God spared the Ninevites, and he may spare you too.

 

Sooner or later, we're gonna have a barbecue and I hope your keister won't be on the fire.

 

Know the Lord,

 

Pete

[Mathew Enoch Mount]

Hello,

We learn from definition that God is the greatest imaginable force.
Some people believe that the greatest imaginable force is randomness,
others believe that the greatest imaginable force is the work of their
own hands, others believe that the greatest imaginable force is
themselves, and yet others believe that the greatest imaginable force
is beyond our imagination. Clearly with the frailties of man if we
could imagine the greatest imaginable force then it would be less
powerful then what it would be if it was beyond our imagination.

All of us perhaps to some extent are hostile to God and do not even
know, but some search for God all of their lives while they hide from
him. This is because Adam and Eve hid from God after they had sinned,
and thus they became alienated from God. God had to make for them fur
coats to cloth them before they would come to him and interact with
him in the greater since. God had to sacrifice an animal causing the
shedding of blood to atone for sins before Adam and Eve could be
clothed in robes of righteousness to interact with God.

The message of the cross of Christ is that through his blood he as
purchased us and has given us these robes or righteousness that we may
appear before God in the wedding supper between him and us, and we may
prepare for union with him under the covenant of marriage. We thus
will at some time be one flesh with God because a man will leave his
father and mother’s house to become one flesh by being united to his
wife, and this is why Christ came to the earth to be united to his
wife. Overall, if this seed of God that comes from Christ to bare the
children of God is not implanted into the heart of the unbeliever,
then God will not have children.

The children of God produce good fruit because they are part of the
vine (this vine is Christ), but apart from him every seed that God has
not planted in his vineyard is a weed. These weeds because they do
not produce good fruit will be gathered together and burned in the
stove before the harvest of all the earth occurs. God will gather
together the good fruit and being it into the barn at the end of time
(this is the kingdom of God).

Thank you,

Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com

[Mathew Enoch Mount]

Hello,

I just want to point out the evangelism may not be Peter’s strongest
talent. We are all gifted in different ways.

Thank you,

Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com

> > So ... Why?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Peter VanGee]

Hi Matt:

 

Evangelism, I thought I was doing fine.  Interesting that my email came in at 5:23.  As I didn't plan that, I'd say its a little more than coincidence.  What my friends used to refer to as the 'Pete' factor.  If I were drafterman, I'd be out looking for sack cloth and ashes.

With regard to evangelism, I'm here to save drafterman - not kiss his butt.  When he gets sick of me - he can go to just about any church on Sunday - give them his money and they'll treat him real nice.

Know the Lord,

 

Pete

[Drafterman]

On Oct 28, 5:23 pm, Peter VanGee <petervan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Drafterman:
>
> Interesting that your email came in at 10:23.  Twenty three being shorthand
> for 2/3=.666  For example, many professional athletes wear the number 23.
> Although there are a few good ones, a more self-centered bunch you may never
> meet.
>
> All that being said, I've never met an honest atheist.  Which is a nice way
> of saying, I think you're full of it.

I'm not sure in what way that is supposed to be "nice". Perhaps you
could explain it better.

In any event, my experience has taught me that a person's religious
stance is not an indication of their trustworthiness.

>
> Why should you believe?  Pick up the Bible.  Read the story of Jonah.  Its
> about 3 pages long, the most it will take you is an evening.  God spared the
> Ninevites, and he may spare you too.

Ok, I read it, but I didn't see anything that suggested why I should
believe.

>
> Sooner or later, we're gonna have a barbecue and I hope your keister won't
> be on the fire.

Arguments from force aren't terribly convincing. Aside from being a
logical fallacy, they require that I believe the proclamation first.
As far as your concern for my well being, given your unfounded
statements regarding my honesty, I'm skeptical.

>
> Know the Lord,
>
> Pete

[Drafterman]

This is all nice, but why should I believe it?

[Mathew Enoch Mount]

Hello,

Perhaps you should not believe the message of the gospel because if
you believe falsely without God giving you the faith to believe then
what would that make you? Judas according to scripture appears to not
believe in the blood atonement of Christ and we know this because
Satan entered him after he took communion, but yet God still had a
plan for Judas because if he had not handed Christ over to be
crucified then how else? Since however you come to us with the
question of why you should believe it is my prayer that God gives you
the faith to believe for Christ did not come into the world to condemn
the world, but to save the world through him.

Consider the following text as it introduces the letter of first
Peter, "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God's elect, strangers
in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia
and Bithynia, who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of
God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for
obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood: Grace and peace
be yours in abundance." (NIV) The point shows us that his message is
for those whom have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God
the Father through the sanctifying work of the Spirit for obedience to
Jesus Christ through blood atonement. The point is that messages like
this are not for everyone, but only for those whom God has chosen, and
those whom are going to be saved.

Consider also the following text, "As you come to him, the living Stone
—rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him— you also, like
living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy
priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through
Jesus Christ." (NIV) The point is that for those whom believe we are
rejected from man and chosen by God to offer ourselves as living
sacrifices before the throne of God to be nailed onto the cross with
Christ, so the question just as you have stated it is "why should you
believe."

I was an atheist, and if believing in Christ was not a supernatural
act of God, then I would have never believed. I plotted perhaps like
you to read the scripture and show the world how Christianity was
false and only believable by stupid people that knew nothing about the
advancements of science. What I however learned is that their is a
whole world of people that struggle to believe that they are going to
be saved when in fact they commit every sin imaginable and hate God
but eagerly desire his gift of eternal salvation.

Thank you,

Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com

> > > So ... Why?- Hide quoted text -
>

> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Drafterman]

On Oct 28, 8:13 pm, Mathew Enoch Mount <mmo...@essex1.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>

So, no reason to believe, just wait until God chooses me?

[mmo...@essex1.com]

Hello,

The fact that you have come to us asking why you should believe gives me some evidence that perhaps God has called you to us through the work of the Holy Ghost. If so, then God is calling you. Remember however that even the soldiers whom crucified Christ said after words, "this is a righteous man." The point is that God has chosen even some of those whom have crucified him. Saint Paul killed Christians before God blinded him and when God blinded him the light entered him, and it was only a supernatural work of God that he was healed and become the person whom wrote most of the New Testament.

Thank you,

Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com

------- Original Message -------
From : Drafterman[mailto:draft...@gmail.com]
Sent : 10/28/2009 7:35:04 PM
To : jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
Cc :
Subject : RE: Re: Why believe?

[Peter VanGee]

Hi Drafterman:

 

All arguments have a basis in force.  The stronger the argument the more likely you are to believe.  Shall I quote Matt, "God is the greatest imaginable force..."  To paraphrase Jesus, If a man comes at you with an army of 20,000 and you only have 10,000...a logical response would be to send out a delegate to ask for terms.  I ask you, are you a child?  If I AM the guy with 20,000, why should I sugar coat it for you?

 

I've never met an honest atheist.  A statement based on my own experience.  There may be one or two out there, but I haven't met him/her.  They all turn out - after I hold them down and metaphorically kick them in the head for a day or two - to be lying, satanist mother f'ers who want to pull the wool over the eyes of the likes of me.  So please - forgive me - if I got no respect for ya.

 

Hey Drafterman - beside having penchant for the movie "Full metal Jacket" - I think you have bats in your belfry.

 

Know the Lord,

 

Pete

[ON EARTH Ministries]

Drafterman -

Do you seek meaning in your life?
Maybe you have some personal issues and questions?
Do you find yourself asking, "Is this it, or is there something subtle
I'm missing?"
Are you puzzled by all of the love many Christians seem to feel?
Do you wonder how something that seems so obvious to others seems so
nonexistant to you?

Here is an excerpt from my initial post to this group. Perhaps, in
conjunction with the questions above , this might give you a stepping
off point for dialog with our ministry, and something to ask more
specifically about. Then I can zero in on exactly what you mean by
"Why should I beleive?".
I don't think you want us to reiterate and interpret several thousand
years of theology and narrative on the human condition.

And then the question becomes, why exactly dont you believe?

Brothers and Sisters,

What a day! I just had an experience that left me in a state of
joyful awe. As many of you who talk with me know, I have been
preaching something Brian McLaren called “faithing your life”, rather
than struggling to live your faith. This means, rather than trying to
find the time
and discipline to institute a regimen of religious rituals in your
already busy life, you could seek the spiritual meaning in the tasks,
moments and circumstances you find yourself in every day. Is that
walk to work a metaphor for a spiritual journey in your life? Is it
an actual one? And how are all experiences readymade parables? How do
your thoughts about these experiences help shape your spirit?
Considering there is no filler in life, and every moment is an
essential part of the whole, can we take the time to gleen the larger,
deeper, truth that our Father’s grace bestows on us every single
moment of every single day of our lives? Can we spiritually afford
not to?
These were the thoughts going through my head as I waited at the bus
stop to run an errand at lunch, worrying about being tardy coming
back. As I was standing there a young man in his twenties pulled up
in a car, smiled kindly, and said, “Do you need a ride?”
I remember looking at him, trying to decern if he was someone from
work, a student neighbor, or perhaps a grown child of one of my
friends that I wasn’t recognizing. I said, “Yes, thanks!”
As I got in the passenger side he offered a hand and a smile and
introduced himself as David, said he was glad to meet me, and asked
“Where to Larry?” I said Church street, and he smiled again and asked
“Church huh?”
I mumbled something about running errands and such, and asked him,
“So, David. What inspired you to such an overt act of kindness? Why
did you offer a stranger, some middle-aged man a ride, out of the
blue?”
What he said next nearly floored me: “Do you believe someone can
change there mind, and then change there life by starting all over
brand new? Become good, kind, and do the right things
unconditionally?”
“In fact I do!” I said, trying to collect enough of myself to
communicate in a meaningful way.
He said, “Well, my life changed yesterday!”
“So, you had an epiphany?”
“Yes, an epiphany!”, he said almost laughing.
As we drove across campus we talked about renewal, goodness, joy, and
being perceptive enough to see the meaning of one’s life in context to
the ‘big picture’, in a rather light-hearted and happy tone. In no
time we were at my destination and stopped, as I had directed.
As I turned to exit his car, I thanked him, and he looked me in the
eye and said, “Thank you for letting me give you just what you needed.
It meant a lot to me!”
After a smile and a handshake, off he went.
Ladies and gentleman, this moment was ground zero for an explosion of
joyful awe. It enveloped me and lifted my heart. If David wasn’t an
angel, he certainly was heaven sent!

Brother Larry Roy Woodsmall
ON EARTH MINISTRIES

[Peter VanGee]

Hi all:

 

Furthermore the statement "God is the greatest imaginable force..." is false.  He is beyond our imagination.  In fact, I think Aristotle defined the imagination as the beginning of all evil.

 

Know the Lord,

 

Pete

[ON EARTH Ministries]

Brother Pete -

Do you suppose a more Peter-acceptable way of saying this might be,
"God is the greatest, and all we consciously know of him,
intellectually, is what is 'percievable', through his grace and
revelation."? I intentionally left off the word 'force' also.

What we may want to offer Draftsman is a interface, rather than an
in-your-face...

How are you feeling Peter? Maybe I just haven't engaged you in a
while, but you seem very agitated.

--

[Peter VanGee]

Hi Larry:

 

Define interface.  In  all honesty, I think he is dick.

 

He doesn't believe there is a God.  I think he is a liar.  Tell me, which is tougher to prove - Him not being a liar or there being a God?

 

Perhaps these bastards should just go to hell and leave us alone.

 

Know the Lord,

 

Pete

[Peter VanGee]

Hi all:

 

I'm like Jonah, up on the hill - just hoping he doesn't repent.  Light up the fire boys, we're gonna have a bbq.  You all gotta try my pork ribs.  Ask anyone who has, they're the best!

 

Know the Lord,

 

Pete

[ON EARTH Ministries]

By interface, I meant "a way to hook him up to our good works and reflections".

But what, you think he is baiting us?
just a nonbeliever looking for an argument? I know you have that covered. ;)
do you percieve a trap?

[Peter VanGee]

Hi Larry:

 

In all honesty, I think both of you are full of crap.  What can I say - these are hard times.  You all get the 'boy' you deserve.  I AM your mirror image.  Trap? - why should I fear a trap - you'll only fall in it yourselves.

 

Know the Lord,

 

Pete

[ON EARTH Ministries]

Yes, dirty, soiled and broken. I concure. You are alot like the
angry little voice I hear when i'm frustrated, and/or doubting others,
myself, God...

I'm not sure I deserve anything Peter. I really mean that.

Perhaps in trying too hard I have failed you.
Or perhaps this is exactly what you need to hear too.
I don't know for sure, so I pray about it a lot.

NOTHING YOU CAN SAY OR DO CAN MAKE ME LOVE YOU LESS.
so, stop trying.

[Peter VanGee]

Hi Larry:

 

Genuine contrition is rare.  It is what Jesus is looking for.  I hope the drafterman is out there listening.

 

Know the Lord,

 

Pete

[Drafterman]

On Oct 29, 9:12 am, Peter VanGee <petervan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Drafterman:
>
> All arguments have a basis in force.  The stronger the argument the more
> likely you are to believe.  Shall I quote Matt, "God is the greatest
> imaginable force..."  To paraphrase Jesus, If a man comes at you with an
> army of 20,000 and you only have 10,000...a logical response would be to
> send out a delegate to ask for terms.  I ask you, are you a child?  If I AM
> the guy with 20,000, why should I sugar coat it for you?

You are equivocating different uses of the word "force", here. In this
context I am talking about the physical type of force you reference in
the latter part of your statement. The "argument from force" I
referenced is a specific type of logical fallacy whereby a person
attempts to assert the truth of their statements, not through any sort
of logical soundess, but through threats or intimidation. A larger
force, while a good measure to ensure some sort of victory on the
field of battle, does not automatically make the beliefs of that
larger force correct.

>
> I've never met an honest atheist.  A statement based on my own experience.
> There may be one or two out there, but I haven't met him/her.  They all turn
> out - after I hold them down and metaphorically kick them in the head for a
> day or two - to be lying, satanist mother f'ers who want to pull the wool
> over the eyes of the likes of me.  So please - forgive me - if I got no
> respect for ya.

I'm not contradicting your experience. I'm just mentioning that a
person's honesty has little to do with their religious stance. You can
rest assured that, as a non-believer, I don't believe in Satan either,
and can't be a Satanist.

I'm interested in a serious discussion. So far, it seems you're
interested belittlement. As a tangential discussion, I'd be interested
in learning how you resolve this type of approach with the popular
conception of "Christian" behavior (love thy neighbor) and also with
the purpose of this group, which obstensibly seems to be to bring the
word of God to the skeptic. Are you under the impression that you can
intimidate people into believing? Do you think that calling people
you've just met liars is a efficent method of bringing the word of God
to them? I would imagine that, regardless of the truth of any word of
God you have to bring, your approach would more likely result in them
shutting themselves off to you from the onset. If you are not
interested in convincing skeptics, then why are you a member of this
group?

As I said, these are tangential issues, the primary topic here is: why
should I believe the "word of God"?

>
> Hey Drafterman - beside having penchant for the movie "Full metal Jacket" -
> I think you have bats in your belfry.

A clear example of how presumption is a risky game. My name has
nothing to do with the movie (the soldier's nickname was "Rafterman"
anyway).

>
> Know the Lord,
>
> Pete

[Drafterman]

On Oct 29, 9:43 am, ON EARTH Ministries

<onearth.ministries.br.woodsm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Drafterman -
>
> Do you seek meaning in your life?

Honestly, no. I'm pretty good at determining, for myself, what my life
means to me.

> Maybe you have some personal issues and questions?

Outside why I should believe in God? No.

> Do you find yourself asking, "Is this it, or is there something subtle
> I'm missing?"

Actually, yes, I do.

> Are you puzzled by all of the love many Christians seem to feel?

No, not really.

> Do you wonder how something that seems so obvious to others seems so
> nonexistant to you?

I understand that. The wonderment usually seems to be from the
Christians, who are puzzled as to why it *isn't* obvious to me.

>
> Here is an excerpt from my initial post to this group.  Perhaps, in
> conjunction with the questions above , this might give you a stepping
> off point for dialog with our ministry, and something to ask more
> specifically about. Then I can zero in on exactly what you mean by
> "Why should I beleive?".

Why should I believe that a God exists and that the Bible is his word?

> I don't think you want us to reiterate and interpret several thousand
> years of theology and narrative on the human condition.

Obviously not, though this raises the question as to why that would be
necessary. There are many people that will never be exposed to such
knowledge, it would be a sad state of affairs if their salvation was
dependent on something they will never have.

>
> And then the question becomes, why exactly dont you believe?

That's easy: I was never raised to believe. My parents, while
Christians themselves, decided to let me choose for myself. The
natural progression of my life resulted in me believing in God.

[Drafterman]

On Oct 29, 11:36 am, Peter VanGee <petervan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Larry:
>
> Define interface.  In  all honesty, I think he is dick.
>
> He doesn't believe there is a God.  I think he is a liar.  Tell me, which is
> tougher to prove - Him not being a liar or there being a God?

We're a long way from proof. The basis of your claim of my dishonesty
is ... well ... nonexistent. Some atheists lied to you, I get it. But
you don't know me.

Neither am I requiring "proof" of God, I think we should just start
with a good reason, then go from there.

>
> Perhaps these bastards should just go to hell and leave us alone.

Perhaps I was mistaken about the purpose of this group:

"Help us to be prepared with an answer to the skeptic and truth to the
seeker. Dialog with us about both theology and philosophy that we may
insure the word of God is properly represented. We accept the
challenge of 1Peter 3:15 and we need all the help we can get!"

Yes, it comes off as being a group among Christians, discussing
strategy for evangelicalism, but I thought I could leverage this by
coming here as a skeptic and truth seeker. That certainly seems well
within the intentions of this group.

On the flip side, 1 Peter 3:15 says:

"But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give
an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in
you with meekness and fear"

Your approach hardly seems meek. Alternate translations render "fear"
as "respect" and you are explicitly and purposefuly disrespectful.

I only bring this up out of an appreciation of irony - that an atheist
would be more supported of the goal of a Christian discussion group
than a Christian who is a member of said group!

If you are not prepared to accept said challenge, then why come here?

>
> Know the Lord,
>
> Pete
>
> On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 10:10 AM, ON EARTH Ministries <
>
>
>
> onearth.ministries.br.woodsm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Brother Pete -
>
> > Do you suppose a more Peter-acceptable way of saying this might be,
> > "God is the greatest, and all we consciously know of him,
> > intellectually,  is what is 'percievable', through his grace and
> > revelation."?  I intentionally left off the word 'force' also.
>
> > What we may want to offer Draftsman is a interface, rather than an
> > in-your-face...
>
> > How are you feeling Peter?  Maybe I just haven't engaged you in a
> > while, but you seem very agitated.
>
> > --
> > Brother Larry Roy Woodsmall

> > ON EARTH MINISTRIES- Hide quoted text -

[Drafterman]

On Oct 29, 11:42 am, Peter VanGee <petervan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all:
>
> I'm like Jonah, up on the hill - just hoping he doesn't repent.

Why would you hope that someone gets condemned to hell?

> Light up
> the fire boys, we're gonna have a bbq.  You all gotta try my pork ribs.  Ask
> anyone who has, they're the best!
>
> Know the Lord,
>
> Pete
>

> On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 11:36 AM, Peter VanGee <petervan...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>
>
> > Hi Larry:
>
> > Define interface.  In  all honesty, I think he is dick.
>
> > He doesn't believe there is a God.  I think he is a liar.  Tell me, which
> > is tougher to prove - Him not being a liar or there being a God?
>
> > Perhaps these bastards should just go to hell and leave us alone.
>
> > Know the Lord,
>
> > Pete
>
> >   On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 10:10 AM, ON EARTH Ministries <

> > onearth.ministries.br.woodsm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Brother Pete -
>
> >> Do you suppose a more Peter-acceptable way of saying this might be,
> >> "God is the greatest, and all we consciously know of him,
> >> intellectually,  is what is 'percievable', through his grace and
> >> revelation."?  I intentionally left off the word 'force' also.
>
> >> What we may want to offer Draftsman is a interface, rather than an
> >> in-your-face...
>
> >> How are you feeling Peter?  Maybe I just haven't engaged you in a
> >> while, but you seem very agitated.
>
> >> --
> >> Brother Larry Roy Woodsmall

[ON EARTH Ministries]

Well, I''m not going to attempt to give you a "Yes Virginia, there is
a Santa Claus" run here.

Maybe I'm just getting old, but, who names their kid 'Drafterman' any way?

I guess the Jesus Way, or devotion to God probably doesn't really have
anything for you. You seem self-reassured, content, nothing bugging
you...
You're getting your reward already!
Merry Christmas, Drafty!

The Kingdom of Heaven is for the poor, and poor of spirit. Those who
are feeling the trials of some sort of poverty, whether it be
material, or emotional...
Those who are humble, or can at least humble themselves enough to surrender.

You seem to be one of those that are strong and content.
Enjoy.

If you arent broken or lacking in some way, you really dont need what
"we are smoking here"
Because, "We are smoking what we are selling."

[Adam Colbert]

hello there, Drafterman! or may i call you Scott? :)

sorry for not responding sooner..........part of me has been thinking
over a response, and another part of me was wanting to see how others
would respond. (not that i was waiting for others to respond just so i
could make MY response as a result of that, as that was/is not the
case, but rather that i was curious as to what others might say).

i guess it didn't take you long to find out that Peter is undoubtedly
the most passive-aggressive active member at present, though i suppose
i give too much false credit in regards to passivity. Mathew is
wonderfully intelligent with verbosity to match, whether that be for
the better or worse in conversation. he has wonderful things to say,
and i enjoy conversation with him, but he is so strongly inspired to
type anything and EVERYthing that comes to his mind that oftentimes
even i as his audience feel a bit alienated from conversation. but
he's good people. and i see Larry has introduced himself. i would not
doubt that you, in particular, in your 'situation' (if i may so call
it that), will find fruitful discussion from Larry more so than any
other member at present. it's just a hunch i foresee.

that said, i guess it's an odd first impression of myself for you in
that i start off by talking about everyone else. i only mention them
in such ways so as to affirm what you've witnessed so far. we're a
colorful group, no doubt, and i do sincerely hope you'll stick around.

as a group, we are quite tolerant of all walks of life. as individuals
of the group, perhaps some less so than others. perhaps Mathew, the
group's creator, could tell you a bit about all the different types of
faiths and denominations that he personally knows to be in the group.
he has personally invited many of them. i mention this because you
were concerned at how non-believers might be welcomed here. well,
regardless of individual preferences, you are completely welcome to be
in the group. there are all types of Christians, denominational and
non-denominational, "hybrid" Christians who also hold Jewish, Islamic,
or Hindu views. there are Muslims within the group that believe Jesus
was the Messiah, some that believe Jesus to be divine, others that
don't, and seemingly everything in between. and there are a plethora
of people who never type anything, so i cannot vouch for what they
believe. so regardless of your personal beliefs, you're welcome here
if you desire to be here, if you desire to post frequently or not at
all.

ummmmm..........i guess regard this as an introduction/welcome to the
group. i know it doesn't answer your question. at all. but i have been
thinking about how to answer it, but i'm not completely ready to put
my gathered thoughts on the subject into a coherent post, for my
thoughts haven't been completely gathered yet. they're getting there.
but know i've been reading your posts, lurking about and whatnot. in
fact, i've approved many of them myself ;).

[Mathew Enoch Mount]

Hello,

Yes, the power of God worked through me in some regard to form Jesus
on the Web several years ago as I was a Philosophy student at Southern
Illinois University Carbondale, and I personally invited everyone whom
I came in contact with for the most part. The group grew from nothing
to 377 members. I would list all the faith groups that we have on
this news group, but the list would be very long.

One day recently I got a very quick sudden glimpse into whom Satan is,
and so I will illustrate with a story that may be helpful although it
may not be all inclusive.

"Their was a man once whom was very God hating, and as a result of his
feelings for God he really didn’t love other people. He saw other
people as sources of many good things in his life, and as a result
instead of loving people for whom God created them to be he instead
sought to harness their produce in order to have personal gain. He
did this because since he hated God he did not want to approach God
himself to receive blessing so that he could produce good things for
himself that he may also share with others. The reason why everyone
shared of their kindness with him and gave to him many good blessings
is because they had hope for him that he would become loving as well.
The man however continued in his hostility toward God, and as he got
older everyone that he knew including his family died off and as each
person whom he knew died off he become more and more lonely, the pain
grew, and the hatred grew as well. Eventually this man became sick
and no one was around to take care of him, and all the pain that he
had caused all of his life haunted him and would not escape him as he
found that everyone and everything rejected him in the end because of
the evil that he had caused and he was without any way of doing
anything good. This man lived in a total world of strangers as he was
unable to care for himself while he remembered all the good things
that had been done for him by other people as he knew that he would
never see any of those people again."

Many unbelievers will die this way for they follow in their Father’s
footsteps.

Now let me tell you another story.

"As a toddler, I was given a rabbit as a pet. I loved this rabbit,
but since my father said that people eat rabbits and that it was good
for food I often desperately desired to eat it. I desired to eat it
because I always had the same food day after day and I was fed very
little (my parents had been poor). As a result, I tried killing the
rabbit in multiple ways, and every time my mother caught me and
rescued the rabbit. One day the temperature outside was about 104
degrees and the rabbit was tied outside in my sand pile in the sun,
and because my mother was sick she told me to give the rabbit some
water to drink but I didn’t and the rabbit died. When the rabbit was
found dead with sand in its mouth, my mother screamed at me because I
had killed her rabbit that she loved so very much. When this
happened, knowing how I felt that day, it would have been better if I
would have died caring for the rabbit giving it the cool water to
drink and putting it in the shade than to feel the gilt of having
through selfish desires killed that rabbit whom I loved and my mother
loved. My understanding was that I killed the rabbit that I loved,
and my mother whom also loved the rabbit whom I also loved now would
through justice treat me as I treated that rabbit and like that rabbit
her love for me would be killed forever (this is what I deserved)."

Many people did not believe whom Christ was, and they tortured him and
killed him. When God opened their eyes they said, "this was a
righteous man", but what they felt in their hearts was "If only I
would have died in his place but as it is I have killed God." This
change of heart caused many to repent and seek to give their lives
back to God being crucified on their own crosses as well. Many of the
early Christian martyrs would have died on their own crosses covered
in blood and torn to bits with tears in their eyes. These tears would
not have been from pain necessarily but they would have been tears of
Joy from feeling Christ overshadow them on the cross. Tears of Joy
from feeling themselves offered as a gift to God whom their heart
raptures in love for, and these tears of Joy would have been from
knowing that they could finely give back to the one they love whom has
done everything for them even to create them in his image and
likeness. Yes these tears of Joy come from knowing that in a world
riddled with sin the Christian on the cross can for once do something
good by giving himself over to wicked men, so that others may learn of
the love of God and be saved through the sacrifice of Jesus as God
dying on the cross.

If what I say is not true, then Christianity would have ended long
ago. I do not say these things to promote myself in my understanding,
but I say these things having been one of the people whom through sin
nailed Jesus to the cross. If you start nailing Jesus to the cross
and his blood starts running down you and all over you, and then God
opens your eyes, then you will know first hand what I am talking about
just as about 2000 years of Christians have known first hand what I am
talking about (This excludes Peter V. as he believes that he is to
righteous to have nailed Jesus to the Cross and that is why he seeks
to nail many to the cross today to make up for it).

Thank you,

Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com

[mmo...@essex1.com]

Hello,

Just think of Peter’s hostility this way.  Because the Romans did not know whom Christ was that meant they had to nail a lot of people to the cross (both believers and unbelievers), and after they did they said in their hearts, "we never nailed God to a cross - we have no other king but Caesar."

For someone whom objects to the necessity of the cross he truly makes the cross more of a necessity through his own work more than anyone whom I know.

What a proud son of Rome.

Thank you,

Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com

------- Original Message -------
From : Drafterman[mailto:draft...@gmail.com]
Sent : 10/29/2009 10:52:57 AM

To : jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
Cc :
Subject : RE: Re: Why believe?

[Adam Colbert]

as a believer to a non-believer, as any believer to any non-believer
(of any faith, for that matter), i think there's a bit of a difficulty
in answering "why?" satisfactorily to the receiver.

lemme put it this way... i, as a believer, can only answer "why?" in
regards to myself, whereas you, a non-believer, can only answer "why
not?" in regards to yourself. i can answer "why?" truthfully, but it
will be from my own perspective. you can answer "why not?" truthfully,
and that will be from your perspective. i don't not believe, so i can
give "traditional" arguments of why not to believe in any god, but
that, in a sense, will only be informational, much like how a history
professor might teach about cultural beliefs that he himself doesn't
necessarily believe. and surely you've heard many reports from people
as to why they hold the faith (or belief, for one can believe but have
no faith) that they have, but, again, that will basically be
informational. this context also includes various interfaith
conversations.

that said, i'm really not sure where to go with the question. one idea
might be for one of us to say why we do or don't believe, like give a
list of "reasons" or "problems" with believing or not believing,
respectively. however, i fear that this will be like symptoms battling
opposite symptoms. my faith is a "cause" which has the "results" of
certain viewpoints. that is what i mean by "symptoms," something that
is the result of something else. and you have a "cause" of non-belief
which carries its own set of non-belief symptoms. so if we went that
route, then it'd be very possible that we'd just be duking it out
rather than discussing anything.

and then there are various ways to look at the question "why?":
"I've never seen/felt/heard/etc. God; why should I believe he exists?"
"There's so much pain in the world; why believe God exists?"
et cetera.

or, taking the offensive stance:
"You don't know of the existence of a god; why would you not want to
look into something like that?"
"You don't know whether souls exist; why would you not want to look
into a possible core of your very existence?"
"You don't know if there's any type of transmigration of a soul from
the body to another mode/plane of existence after the physical death
of the body; why flippantly throw out thinking about such a
possibility?"
et cetera

and there are other ways of posing the question, defensively,
offensively, and neutrally, but at the moment i can't remember more of
them.

in the end, we can't decide things for you, but we can help you work
through things in your own mind. and some would say that the complete
absurdity is itself strong evidence for belief. (i would say "proof"
instead of "evidence," but there isn't some magical word, action, or
phrase that proves something to the point of conversion. at least, not
in the 2000+ years of Christendom.) but to think that people not only
believe that there's an invisible creator of the universe, but that
they truly believe that the king of the universe is on their side, and
that they also converse with the invisible creator of all that exists?
i'm not gonna say that that doesn't sound absurd.

[Peter VanGee]

Hi Rafterman:

 

The fact that you know his name was Rafterman proves my point.  I'd venture to guess the name wasn't available, so you chose the next available.

 

Prove to me your honest, then I'll prove to you God exists.  Why should I cast pearls to swine?  Nietzche said satan didn't exist, then we all saw the fruit of his philosophy in the 40's.  Atheism killed and inprisoned more people in the last century, than religion ever has.

 

In all honesty, I think Adam, Larry and you are dicks.  If God lets me, I'll personnally shove the skewer in you and put you on the fire.  How's that for passive aggressive.  Why?  "It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin."  You corrupt the innocent.  I can't stand you!

 

Know the Lord,

 

Pete

[Peter VanGee]

Hi Matt:

 

A son of Rome?  Perhaps, but not the Rome you speak of.

 

Hostile?  Maybe you should ask yourself, do I have a right to be hostile?  From my point of view, they put my big brother up on the cross.  Hebrews may have gotten one thing wrong, it appears to me as though they've been killing my brother(s) since time began.

What are you gonna do?  You gonna hold it against me because I recognize it?

 

Know the Lord,

 

Pete

[Drafterman]

On Oct 29, 10:19 pm, Adam Colbert <adamcolb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> hello there, Drafterman! or may i call you Scott? :)

Sure.

>
> sorry for not responding sooner..........part of me has been thinking
> over a response, and another part of me was wanting to see how others
> would respond. (not that i was waiting for others to respond just so i
> could make MY response as a result of that, as that was/is not the
> case, but rather that i was curious as to what others might say).

I understand. The lack of content in my own first post was primarily
due to not knowing how I would be received here. Certainly questions
have been raised as to the integrity of my purpose here and while I
cannot prove my integrity, this seems (to me, at least) a risk with
any new member, regardless of their religious affiliation. Only time
can show one's true intentions.

I appreciate the warm introduction. I don't expect my question to be
resolved immediately. This is something I have been working on for
decades, it would be unreasonable for it to be completed in mere days.

[Drafterman]

On Oct 30, 6:36 am, Adam Colbert <adamcolb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> as a believer to a non-believer, as any believer to any non-believer
> (of any faith, for that matter), i think there's a bit of a difficulty
> in answering "why?" satisfactorily to the receiver.

I agree. This is made even more difficult by people who think there is
no way to explain it; one must simply experience it. But this opinion
is not universal. There are those that say that belief in God cannot
come through rational means (for example, Pascal) and those that
believe it can (such as Aquinas). Now, obviously my question is a dead
end for those that are on the Pascal side of things. I'm hoping to
converse with those that belief that there are convincing arguments
(I'm not talking about 100% die-hard proof, simply a logically sound
reason) and see what they have to offer.

>
> lemme put it this way... i, as a believer, can only answer "why?" in
> regards to myself, whereas you, a non-believer, can only answer "why
> not?" in regards to yourself. i can answer "why?" truthfully, but it
> will be from my own perspective. you can answer "why not?" truthfully,
> and that will be from your perspective. i don't not believe, so i can
> give "traditional" arguments of why not to believe in any god, but
> that, in a sense, will only be informational, much like how a history
> professor might teach about cultural beliefs that he himself doesn't
> necessarily believe. and surely you've heard many reports from people
> as to why they hold the faith (or belief, for one can believe but have
> no faith) that they have, but, again, that will basically be
> informational. this context also includes various interfaith
> conversations.

I concede that this is not an easy task, despite the simplicity of the
question. The main impression that I get is that believers have,
primarily, personal justification. Validation of their believe that
they have received or developed internally and run into a barrier when
trying to express or explain this justification to others. The problem
is that, if it is the position of this religion that everyone *should*
believe, and will suffer if they don't, then this barrier must be
crossed.

>
> that said, i'm really not sure where to go with the question. one idea
> might be for one of us to say why we do or don't believe, like give a
> list of "reasons" or "problems" with believing or not believing,
> respectively. however, i fear that this will be like symptoms battling
> opposite symptoms. my faith is a "cause" which has the "results" of
> certain viewpoints. that is what i mean by "symptoms," something that
> is the result of something else. and you have a "cause" of non-belief
> which carries its own set of non-belief symptoms. so if we went that
> route, then it'd be very possible that we'd just be duking it out
> rather than discussing anything.

We can certainly try this method, it's how differential diagnosis
works in medicine (Thank you, "House"). My stance of unbelief comes
from having never been taught to believe by my family, and not coming
to believe of my own accord. When I look at the Bible, I do not see
that it is any more different (by way of factuality) than any other
mythological work.

>
> and then there are various ways to look at the question "why?":
> "I've never seen/felt/heard/etc. God; why should I believe he exists?"
> "There's so much pain in the world; why believe God exists?"
> et cetera.
>
> or, taking the offensive stance:
> "You don't know of the existence of a god; why would you not want to
> look into something like that?"
> "You don't know whether souls exist; why would you not want to look
> into a possible core of your very existence?"
> "You don't know if there's any type of transmigration of a soul from
> the body to another mode/plane of existence after the physical death
> of the body; why flippantly throw out thinking about such a
> possibility?"
> et cetera
>
> and there are other ways of posing the question, defensively,
> offensively, and neutrally, but at the moment i can't remember more of
> them.

Those are good questions, but there are two things to consider:

1. I'm just starting out here, so I don't want to get too aggressive.
2. Those are primarily questions that an unbeliever would use to
question a belief as a critique of their faith. What I'm doing here is
offerring an invitation to critique my faithlessness. What about
questions that a believer would ask an unbeliever?

[Drafterman]

On Oct 29, 10:08 pm, ON EARTH Ministries

<onearth.ministries.br.woodsm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Well, I''m not going to attempt to give you a "Yes Virginia, there is
> a Santa Claus" run here.
>
> Maybe I'm just getting old, but, who names their kid 'Drafterman' any way?

I don't know. Who names their kid "ON EARTH Ministries"?

>
> I guess the Jesus Way, or devotion to God probably doesn't really have
> anything for you.  You seem self-reassured, content, nothing bugging
> you...

Interesting. I was under the impression that, from your point of view,
not only does your way do have something for me, but it's something I
need if I wish to avoid some sort of eternal punishment.

In any event, there are over two billion people claiming this. I think
it only nature that I inquire as to the legitimacy of their belief.

After all, I did answer affirmatively to your question:

"Do you find yourself asking, "Is this it, or is there something
subtle I'm missing?""

> You're getting your reward already!
> Merry Christmas, Drafty!
>
> The Kingdom of Heaven is for the poor, and poor of spirit.  Those who
> are feeling the trials of some sort of poverty, whether it be
> material, or emotional...
> Those who are humble, or can at least humble themselves enough to surrender.
>
> You seem to be one of those that are strong and content.
> Enjoy.
>
> If you arent broken or lacking in some way, you really dont need what
> "we are smoking here"
> Because, "We are smoking what we are selling."

From the point of view of your religion, do you consider me not broken
or lacking on some way and not in need of your religion?

[Drafterman]

On Oct 30, 9:47 am, Peter VanGee <petervan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Rafterman:
>
> The fact that you know his name was Rafterman proves my point.

Your point was that my name is based off of the movie, which it is
not.

> I'd venture
> to guess the name wasn't available, so you chose the next available.

And you'd be wrong.

>
> Prove to me your honest, then I'll prove to you God exists.

I can't prove to you my honesty. With time my honest may reveal
itself. This issue is why, within the court system, there is the
presumption of innocence. I still note, however, that your claims of
my dishonesty are baseless. That's just simple logic.

> Why should I
> cast pearls to swine?

The goal of this group is to accept the challenge of 1 Peter 3:15. Are
you prepared to do that?

> Nietzche said satan didn't exist, then we all saw the
> fruit of his philosophy in the 40's.  Atheism killed and inprisoned more
> people in the last century, than religion ever has.

I assume you are talking about the communists of the USSR and China.
While they, officially, were atheists, I have seen no evidence that
their acts were specifically due to their atheism. Those people were
many things: dark-haired, Asians, communists. Since correlation does
not equal causation we simply cannot take a common attribute among
them and proclaim that to be their motivation. My understand of the
situation is that their acts against religion was due to an attempt to
consolidate control (which they view organized religion as a threat
to). That is, their motivation was political, rather than
philosophical.

>
> In all honesty, I think Adam, Larry and you are dicks.  If God lets me, I'll
> personnally shove the skewer in you and put you on the fire.  How's that for
> passive aggressive.  Why?  "It would be better for him to be thrown into the
> sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these
> little ones to sin."  You corrupt the innocent.  I can't stand you!

It always amazes me how versatile the Bible is. It seems that anyone
can find anything in the Bible to support any philosophy. How do you
feel about the following verses?

Matthew 19:19, Matthew 22:39, Mark 12:31, Luke 10:27, Romans 13:9,
Galatians 5:14, James 2:8 - "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as
thyself." (It's in the Bible at least seven times. It must be
important.)
Luke 6:31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to
them likewise.
Romans 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that
loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Drafterman]

On Oct 30, 9:47 am, Peter VanGee <petervan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Rafterman:
>
> The fact that you know his name was Rafterman proves my point.  I'd venture
> to guess the name wasn't available, so you chose the next available.
>
> Prove to me your honest, then I'll prove to you God exists.  Why should I
> cast pearls to swine?  Nietzche said satan didn't exist, then we all saw the
> fruit of his philosophy in the 40's.  Atheism killed and inprisoned more
> people in the last century, than religion ever has.
>
> In all honesty, I think Adam, Larry and you are dicks.  If God lets me, I'll
> personnally shove the skewer in you and put you on the fire.

I have to admit that I find this attitude of yours both interesting
and confusing and would like to know how you resolve it with typical
Christian philosophy. Or do you not percieve any sort of conflict?
I've been doing some research with regards to Christians views about
schadenfreude and came across this interesting quote:

"He is a man; do not rejoice in his fall. He is your brother; let not
your heart leap for joy when he stumbles. God created him for life,
and God does not rejoice in his fall. And you also, do not rejoice at
that which grieves God. When a man falls, God loses; do you rejoice in
the loss of your Creator, of your Parent? When the angels weep, do you
rejoice?

When your enemy falls, pray to God for him, that God will save him;
and give thanks to God that you did not fall in the same manner. You
are of the same material, both you and he, like two vessels from the
hand of the potter. If one vessel breaks, should the other one smile
and rejoice? Behold, the small stone that broke that vessel only waits
for someone's hand to raise it to destroy this vessel also. Both
vessels are of the same material, and a small stone can destroy a
hundred vessels.

When one sheep is lost, should the rest of the flock rejoice? No, they
should not. For behold, the shepherd leaves his flock and, being
concerned, goes to seek the lost sheep. The shepherd's loss is the
flock's loss too. Therefore, do not rejoice when your enemy falls, for
your Shepherd and his Shepherd, the Lord Jesus Christ, does not
rejoice in his fall.

O Lord Jesus Christ, Thou Good Shepherd, remove malicious joy from our
hearts, and in its place plant compassion and brotherly love. To Thee
be glory and praise forever. Amen." - Bishop Nikolaj Velimirović

You apparently disagree with Nikolaj here, why?

> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Drafterman]

This is a common misconception that I come against, the notion that
unbelievers "hate God". If we are talking about a true unbeliever,
then they cannot hate God anymore they hate Zeus or Odin. Compounding
this issue, and leading to the prevelance of this mistake, is the
existence of people that identify as unbelievers but actually do
believe in and hate, God. They may be thouroughly confused, but they
are not actually unbelievers.

>
> Now let me tell you another story.
>
> "As a toddler, I was given a rabbit as a pet.  I loved this rabbit,
> but since my father said that people eat rabbits and that it was good
> for food I often desperately desired to eat it.  I desired to eat it
> because I always had the same food day after day and I was fed very
> little (my parents had been poor).  As a result, I tried killing the
> rabbit in multiple ways, and every time my mother caught me and
> rescued the rabbit.  One day the temperature outside was about 104
> degrees and the rabbit was tied outside in my sand pile in the sun,
> and because my mother was sick she told me to give the rabbit some
> water to drink but I didn’t and the rabbit died.  When the rabbit was
> found dead with sand in its mouth, my mother screamed at me because I
> had killed her rabbit that she loved so very much.  When this
> happened, knowing how I felt that day, it would have been better if I
> would have died caring for the rabbit giving it the cool water to
> drink and putting it in the shade than to feel the gilt of having
> through selfish desires killed that rabbit whom I loved and my mother
> loved.  My understanding was that I killed the rabbit that I loved,
> and my mother whom also loved the rabbit whom I also loved now would
> through justice treat me as I treated that rabbit and like that rabbit
> her love for me would be killed forever (this is what I deserved)."

Sorry, but I cannot relate to this story. I find the mother's actions
and the child's reactions to be irrational and unbelievable. Even if
this is a parable (by way of hyperbole) I cannot discern what the
moral here is.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by: "If what I say is not

true, then Christianity would have ended long ago."

Could you elaborate on that?

> > fact, i've approved many of them myself  ;).- Hide quoted text -

[mmo...@essex1.com]

Hello,

Everyone who ever sinned has crucified Christ, Peter this means you too, Peter. If Christ is big brother, then remember what big brother does when he is crucified for he says, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do." Not once did Christ ever retaliate his crucifixion and in fact he healed the ear of the man whom came to arrest Jesus.

Consider the following, "Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well. This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God. This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. For there are three that testify: the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. We accept man's testimony, but God's testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son." 1 John 5:1-9 (NIV)

Thank you,

Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com

------- Original Message -------
From : Peter VanGee[mailto:peter...@gmail.com]
Sent : 10/30/2009 9:07:35 AM
To : jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
Cc :
Subject : RE: Re: Re: Why believe?

[ON EARTH Ministries]

Scott -
Mathew and Peter are going to spar about their own issues here, kind
of like a dysfunctional couple at a cocktail party. Sincere and
intense.

I'd like to recommend some books that might be of interest to you.
None are perfect, most are very contemporary, some are what I would
deem a classic. For me, all have been interesting, and/or
entertaining, instructive, inspiring.
The Case For Christ: A Journalist's Personal Investigation of the
Evidence for Jesus - Lee Strobel
A Generous Orthodoxy - Brian McLaren
Velvet Elvis: Repainting the Christian Faith - Rob Bell
Blue Like Jazz: Non-Religious Thoughts on Christian Spirituality - Donald Miller
Mere Christianity - C.S. Lewis

Meaning in your life - "Honestly, no. I'm pretty good at determining,
for myself, what my life means to me." Frankly, I have to say that I
feel like I asked you if you were looking for love in your life, and
you answered, "No, I am able to look in the mirror and masturbate any
time I get horny." The first thing I want to say is, it took me a
long time to realize that life isn't all about me. Not even my own
life is ALL about me, and in fact, if it has purpose, which I believe
it does, it's really not about me at all. Long ago I became sick and
tired of myself. Even more sick and tired of me than Brother Pete.

Personal issues/questions? "Outside why I should believe in God? No."
BEEP! I'm sorry, you are wrong. The answer is, " Actually, yes, I
do. Is this it, or is there something subtle I'm missing?"
Q:"Why should I believe that a God exists and that the Bible is his
word?" Obviously a 2-parter. First, I want to mention that just
yesterday I was voicing my frustration and concern with what has
happened to "spiritual words", and their meaning. I have to confess,
(there's one right there!) there are times when I cringe when I read
the word "God". It's so generic, limited, misused, and preposterously
"defining" and "confining". There's just something that seems wrong,
as if the "Book of Life" were published, and underneath the title it
said "Author". And with the emotional quality of introducing your
loving mother and father as "My direct male and female descendants".
Jesus touched on this when he said "Abba" or "Daddy". And any attempt
to express what I want to offer with words like "God", "sin",
"repent", "salvation", etc., are mere vehicles of the sea of the
rational mind that have either collected barnacles from sitting in
quiet protected harbors, or damaged from many years on rough, stormy
seas. You see, I am what has been referred to as "a post-modern
Trinitarian". Father, Son, Holy Ghost. Mind, body, soul. Thought,
action, love. Maybe even Author, content, and subject, if it serves to
illustrate for the "mind", through something the "body" can take in,
(eyes reading printed word) something really is a matter of the
"soul". And I will be the first one to admit that this is completely
backwards. Maybe like driving down the interstate staring into the
rearview mirror. And there is more than enough of this in
Christianity already.
OH LOOK! We get to talk about the Bible, and book fetishes! First of
all, let me say I believe the Bible to be the single most important
book ever published, about the single most important subject, it's
content to be divinely inspired, and it's authors to be sincerely
inspired by "The author of all", the "I AM". That having been said,
it is only "a book". Unrivaled in insights, revelations, beauty and
love, in my opinion, but still, only a book. At least in the material
world. Since that is where we are meeting, I want to make one more
point as to why I think you should study, think, and pray about it.
Most history we have is written by the winners, and spans such a
period of time. It gives an inside out history of a eviscerated
people, over 5000 year + cycle that reads like a divine opera. It is a
Devine opera. A desperate, sincere, searching. Authentic. Everybody
should read atleast one book, and this is it.
Yeah, I snuck in "pray" about it. Obviously, you are smart enough to
get the point that what I am saying is that this is a matter of what
is called "soul", "spirit", "heart", emotions". you just have to get
down to it and close your eyes. Sincerely say, "If you are out there,
or here, or whatever, I'm open to receiving whatever you have to
offer, in hope that I will "see" or "feel" or "understand". Then be
quiet and listen. At first you may only learn that you are an
impatient self-absorbed twit, like I have to over and over again.
Maybe you'll get something else I have no idea of. But, if you are
willing to receive, you will get something.
Try writing us a story, your story. A parable. "This is the parable
of Scott Drafterman" There's always a "moral to the story".
Beginning, middle, end. Good guys, Bad guys, innocent bystanders. Is
there a twist at the end?

[Mathew Enoch Mount]

Hello,

The church that I attended from a child and then on for twenty years
without missing hardly any Sundays in that twenty years believed in
free will as you are describing. The church believed that everyone
had a choice and that they could choose Christ or not and that a
person would get to an age of reason and then would be able to make a
choice regarding what they are to believe regarding Christ. When I
got to that age out of several children, I was the only one whom
rejected baptism.

When I got older, every person whom was baptized in that church at the
time when I was offered baptism fell away from the church (this was
something like 8 or 9 people), and most likely they do not believe in
Christianity even to this day. I became an atheist at an early age
but I still attended. I did not realize just how much I hated God.

The story of my rabbit you might not believe but it is true. My
mother was latter diagnosed with mental illness, and I was almost
taken from my home to be put into foster care because of it. If this
would have happened, then it would have been an ungodly thing.

Consider the following, "Rebekah's children had one and the same
father, our father Isaac. Yet, before the twins were born or had done
anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might
stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will
serve the younger." Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I
hated." What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he
says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will
have compassion on whom I have compassion." It does not, therefore,
depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. For the
Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose,
that I might display my power in you and that my name might be
proclaimed in all the earth." Therefore God has mercy on whom he
wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. One of
you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists
his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what
is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'
"Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of
clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? What if
God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with
great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?
What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the
objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— even us,
whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the
Gentiles? As he says in Hosea: "I will call them 'my people' who are
not my people; and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved
one," and, "It will happen that in the very place where it was said to
them, 'You are not my people,' they will be called 'sons of the living
God.' " Romans 9:10-26 (NIV)

The day that I let that rabbit parish is the day that I crucified
Christ, and you might call my mother’s actions into question and say
that she was unjust but both my actions in letting the rabbit parish
and my mothers actions in putting the rabbit into my care had been
God’s choosing. God even chose Judas whom would betray him, and when
it came time for Christ to be killed Jesus told Judas, "Go do what it
is you are going to do and do it quickly." Judas then sold Jesus into
the hands of those whom wanted to arrest him for a sum of money.

Did Judas choose Christ? Yes he did, but did God choose Judas for
eternal salvation? No God did not choose Judas for eternal salvation.

If God was some bum on the street trying to get you to believe in him
by choice while demanded that you pay him ten percent of your income
while promising to you that you would enter paradise after your death,
then God would be dead and he would not even exist. The fact is that
many of these bums exist, and God has put them in place as a test to
see what is in man’s heart. The true and living God has created all
of us both good and bad, and he will do with us whatever he pleases.

Weather you believe in God or not you will not escape him performing
his will in your life. If we could choose Christ or reject Christ,
then God would be your footstool and we would be gods over him. The
fact that we cannot chose our parents immediately tells us that we are
not in control of our destiny.

If God is your father, then it is not by your choosing. If Satan is
your father, then it is not by your choosing either. In all things
God’s will is done.

Their however is good news. This good news is that Christ was born,
died, and arose from the dead. When Christ is born into your life and
God works his will out into your life, then in the end you will become
nailed on the cross with Christ to be risen with him from the dead.
Salvation then is not a act of man, but it is a act of God for with
man salvation is impossible but with God all things are possible.

Thank you,

Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com

[Mathew Enoch Mount]

Hello,

When a unbeliever comes to some of you, you think something is missing
he is not baring the cross of Christ. As a result, some of you nail
the unbeliever onto the cross and then go on to say, "see this is what
Jesus is like." Instead what you should do is hand him the nails and
the hammer and hold up your cross and then say, "do what you are going
to do and do it quickly." When he nails you to your own cross, then
you can say "see this is what Jesus is like, Father forgive them for

they know not what they do."

Thank you,

Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com

On Oct 30, 9:07 am, Peter VanGee <petervan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Matt:
>
> A son of Rome?  Perhaps, but not the Rome you speak of.
>
> Hostile?  Maybe you should ask yourself, do I have a right to be hostile?
> From my point of view, they put my big brother up on the cross.  Hebrews may
> have gotten one thing wrong, it appears to me as though they've been killing
> my brother(s) since time began.
> What are you gonna do?  You gonna hold it against me because I recognize it?
>
> Know the Lord,
>
> Pete
> On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 3:57 AM, mmo...@essex1.com <mmo...@essex1.com>wrote:
>
>
>
> >  Hello,
>
> > Just think of Peter’s hostility this way.  Because the Romans did not know
> > whom Christ was that meant they had to nail a lot of people to the cross
> > (both believers and unbelievers), and after they did they said in their
> > hearts, "we never nailed God to a cross - we have no other king but Caesar."
>
> > For someone whom objects to the necessity of the cross he truly makes the
> > cross more of a necessity through his own work more than anyone whom I know.
>
> > What a proud son of Rome.
>
> > Thank you,
>
> > Mathew Enoch Mount
> > mmo...@essex1.com
> > ------- Original Message -------
>

> > *From :* Drafterman[mailto:drafter...@gmail.com]
> > *Sent :* 10/29/2009 10:52:57 AM
> > *To :* jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
> > *Cc :*
> > *Subject :* RE: Re: Why believe?

>
> > On Oct 29, 11:42 am, Peter VanGee <petervan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Hi all:
>
> > > I'm like Jonah, up on the hill - just hoping he doesn't repent.
>
> > Why would you hope that someone gets condemned to hell?
>
> > > Light up
> > > the fire boys, we're gonna have a bbq.  You all gotta try my pork ribs.
> >  Ask
> > > anyone who has, they're the best!
>
> > > Know the Lord,
>

> > > Pete- Hide quoted text -

[ON EARTH Ministries]

oooo.
I like that. That makes sense to me.
You are best a paragraph at a time.
Very illuminating.

[Peter VanGee]

Hi all:

 

Yes, a paragraph at a time.  I like that.  And Matthew - I know patience is a virtue - but why do you bother telling me things I already know?  Even the just man falls seven time a day - so sue me for choosing the time and place.

 

Know the Lord,

 

Pete

[Drafterman]

On Oct 30, 5:02 pm, ON EARTH Ministries

<onearth.ministries.br.woodsm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Scott -
> Mathew and Peter are going to spar about their own issues here, kind
> of like a dysfunctional couple at a cocktail party. Sincere and
> intense.
>
> I'd like to recommend some books that might be of interest to you.
> None are perfect, most are very contemporary, some are what I would
> deem a classic.  For me, all have been interesting, and/or
> entertaining, instructive, inspiring.
> The Case For Christ: A Journalist's Personal Investigation of the
> Evidence for Jesus - Lee Strobel
> A Generous Orthodoxy - Brian McLaren
> Velvet Elvis: Repainting the Christian Faith - Rob Bell
> Blue Like Jazz: Non-Religious Thoughts on Christian Spirituality - Donald Miller
> Mere Christianity - C.S. Lewis

Thank you for the suggestions. I'll add those to my "to read" list.

>
> Meaning in your life - "Honestly, no. I'm pretty good at determining,
> for myself, what my life means to me."  Frankly, I have to say that I
> feel like I asked you if you were looking for love in your life, and
> you answered, "No, I am able to look in the mirror and masturbate any
> time I get horny."  The first thing I want to say is, it took me a
> long time to realize that life isn't all about me.  Not even my own
> life is ALL about me, and in fact, if it has purpose, which I believe
> it does, it's really not about me at all.  Long ago I became sick and
> tired of myself.  Even more sick and tired of me than Brother Pete.

What I meant was that I have no problem setting my goals and placing
values on the things in my life. While certainly self-centeredness is
a possible outcome, it is an outcome only if I choose it to be, and I
haven't.

The problem here is that I've done just that. I've at many times in my
life I have thrown caution to the wind and sincerely stretched out my
thoughts in an effort to contact anything that may be out there. I
have been specific. I have been general. I have been kind. I have been
mean. I have tried bargaining. I can honestly say that I have felt
nothing in response to these attempts, nor am aware of any discernible
response to them.

> Try writing us a story, your story.  A parable.  "This is the parable
> of Scott Drafterman"  There's always a "moral to the story".
> Beginning, middle, end.  Good guys, Bad guys, innocent bystanders. Is
> there a twist at the end?

My story is simple. My parents, while religious themselves, decided
that their children should have the choice of choosing their own path.
I was never baptized. I was offered the choice to go to Sunday school,
but declined. I attended church only as part of special events with
family (Easter, mostly). As I grew up, I began to evaluate my
philosophical position more and more through continued and serious
introspection. As I became aware of the terms, I identified as an
agnostic though I never really articulated it until I left high
school.

My studies and forays into religion and philosophy were self guided.
I've read books, and researched. The only really major breakthrough
I've had is the misconception that agnosticism exists as a middle
ground between theism and atheism; it doesn't, despite the popular
conception that it does. I lacked a belief in any god. I was an
atheist.

That pretty much brings me where I am today, with simply a more
refined stance on various subjects. I have never ceased my
introspection and am fully willing to place under the microscope and
belief I hold (or don't hold). I try to be my own worst critic but
realize the cognitive biases that plague even the most unbiased of
individuals means I cannot do this alone. I realize that I have the
capability to deceive myself. To prevent this, try my best not to let
emotion or instinct get in the way of this process. I do, however,
fully admit that, when I attempt to mentally process the cosmos part
of my rejects the notion that reality exists for no good reason.

Now some would jump on this impression, but I note that it is a long
path from some nagging feeling of universal purpose to God, Jesus, and
the Bible.

[Drafterman]

On Oct 30, 5:13 pm, Mathew Enoch Mount <mmo...@essex1.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> The church that I attended from a child and then on for twenty years
> without missing hardly any Sundays in that twenty years believed in
> free will as you are describing.  The church believed that everyone
> had a choice and that they could choose Christ or not and that a
> person would get to an age of reason and then would be able to make a
> choice regarding what they are to believe regarding Christ.  When I
> got to that age out of several children, I was the only one whom
> rejected baptism.

We have choices yes, but I disagree with the amount of control we have
over our own beliefs that you seem to imply here. I cannot, for
example, will myself to believe that 2+2=5, or that the sky is green.
I'm a fan of the "web of belief" philosophy. Our beliefs are
interwoven. The core beliefs in the center form the foundation of our
personal belief set and are held with much conviction and do not
change on a whim. Outer beliefs, while based (by various degrees of
separation) on inner beliefs, are able to be "unraveled" more easily.

For example:
That I need to eat, drink and breath to live is an inner belief not
readily subject to uprooting.
The subject of someone's guilt or innocence is an outer belief,
subject to change dependent on the available evidence.

Belief in god, to me, would seem to only have a place as a core belief
and cannot just be accepted on a whim. I lack that kind of control
over my own psyche. Even if I did, I would not exert it in that
manner. To accept such beliefs without scrutiny is to accept all
beliefs without scrutiny. Obviously you have a filter, for you reject
some beliefs related to the God you believe in. Were those decisions
simply random? Did you simply close your eyes and decide which
religion to choose, which denomination, which sect, which various
interpretations of dogma, completely randomly? I doubt it. I would
guess that you had reasons, determining factors. You were guided to
where you are now.

>
> When I got older, every person whom was baptized in that church at the
> time when I was offered baptism fell away from the church (this was
> something like 8 or 9 people), and most likely they do not believe in
> Christianity even to this day.  I became an atheist at an early age
> but I still attended.  I did not realize just how much I hated God.

You've made this association before and it makes me question that you
were ever an atheist. Why would you invest emotional energy in a being
you did not believe existed? I would not have guessed that such a
thing was possible.

>
> The story of my rabbit you might not believe but it is true.  My
> mother was latter diagnosed with mental illness, and I was almost
> taken from my home to be put into foster care because of it.  If this
> would have happened, then it would have been an ungodly thing.

If you say it is true, then I have no reason to doubt you. I still
stand by my stance that your mother acted irrationally and that I
cannot relate to the story to discern what purpose you had in telling
it to me.

[Mathew Enoch Mount]

Hello,

Some people believe that choices, values, and goals are good and holy
things, but they are evidence of sin and a fallen world. After our
sins have been justified by Christ being born into our lives, and
after we are nailed to the cross with Christ through his sanctifying
power, and after we have risen with Christ to rain in heaven with him
through glorification, then the experience of God will be so intimate
and the unity between God and man so passionate that the consummation
of the marriage between God and his people will be so profound that
choices, values, and goals will be like the game of paper, rock, and
scissors. When I was a child I thought like a child and acted like a
child, but when I became an adult I put the game of paper, rock, and
scissors behind me.

The more that the Holy Ghost fills us we need not worry about choices
because God makes them for us, we need not worry about values because
God knows what he wants and what is important to him, and we need not
worry about goals because God’s plan is so much greater than any plan
that we could make and the Father’s will never will not be done.
Consider the following text, "When you go to war against your enemies
and the LORD your God delivers them into your hands and you take
captives, if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are
attracted to her, you may take her as your wife. Bring her into your
home and have her shave her head, trim her nails and put aside the
clothes she was wearing when captured. After she has lived in your
house and mourned her father and mother for a full month, then you may
go to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife." Deuteronomy
21:10-13 (NIV) The truth that I see in this law as it comes down from
God to angles to us is that after the army of God has destroyed the
army of the devil in battle and we take captives that the women whom
we take as future wives are to grieve for the losses that they have
incurred, but they are to be stripped of any pride or glory and even
when married they as we know from Hebrew culture will never have the
authority of a man.

As the New Jerusalem is the wife of the lamb (Christ) whom has been
purchased from the blood of the lamb and having been taken from the
captives of Satan through the battles between the army of the lamb and
the powers of darkness, thus at first God’s people are brought in from
the captives having been stripped of all their glory and honor like
the birth of Christ made Christ into a form even a little lower then
the angels. Next like any good wife God’s people are made into
servants by the master showing his will just as the man of the house
is the head of the house and tells his wife exactly what to do and how
to do it. Eventually the wife seeks to please her master so much that
she eagerly desires to understand his feelings, desires, and will, and
when this happens then see becomes glorified with Christ sharing
completely in his love, and no longer is she just a slave but instead
she knows what God wants and how he wants it and she eagerly works to
please him. (For more information about a wife of noble character see
Proverbs 31:10-31) Overall, eventually goals, values, and choices are
only things that we generate when we are not in the presence of God to
ask him what he would prefer and how we can serve him, so when we
completely enter the presence of God permanently we just like the game
of paper, rock, and scissors find goals, values, and choices to be
only things that children play with before their father intrudes them
to the real world.

Thank you,

Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com

[Mathew Enoch Mount]

Hello,

You appear to think that I made a bunch of choices and decisions to be
a Christian when in fact I was deeply Atheist when I entered college.
I believed that the only things that existed is what was natural and
naturally perceivable or could be naturally perceivable. Prior to
that I believed at one time that only I really existed and every thing
else was like a figment of my imagination including other people (this
is called antirealism).

I was a work-study security guard at Sauk Valley Community College
when a bunch of evangelist came to the school and opened bibles and
just simply read out of them. Many people got so enraged by the
scripture just being read aloud that they would oppose the evangelists
and speak harshly about them including school administration. I was
thus assigned to watch over the evangelists and to be a witness in
case anything happened, so whenever the evangelists came out thus so
too I came out when my school schedule permitted.

I saw that the evangelists had been enraging so many people that I
bought the first bible that I had ever purchased (I used my work-study
money for this), and I sought to use my ‘scientific methods’ as people
praised me for in order to disprove the scripture and show how it was
just like a big pile of dug that idiots believed in. I however wanted
to be genuine in my approach. Their was also this man that I knew
whom was a computer programming instructor whom was a very
conservative Christian whom had an enormous amount of education and
almost gained a doctorate in a field related to mathematics but had
problems with his dissertation (he was so conservative that he would
not let his 8 children attend public school but instead taught them at
home much like I would do if I had children), and he puzzled me
because he was so smart but he read the bible and spoke from the bible
almost constantly. I could not understand how a person could have a
160 IQ like this man and be so educated but yet be a Christian;
moreover, I believed that something was really wrong with this
picture.

I met with this college instructor and I tried to disprove the
scripture and what he had to say or at least understand how I could
disprove it in order to ‘free people like him from the slavery of
ignorance’ (I mean I thought that he was a really nice man but just
mislead). I also read works of Plato as I thought that this would
give me a lot of power to analyze Christianity and the scripture in
the so called, ‘light of truth’ after all I was told that all
philosophy rested on the shoulders of Plato. I also searched for the
very best work available for people experiencing what they believed as
being profound and revolutionary experiences with the unseen world in
order that I may disprove this as well and I found Astral Dynamics by
Robert Bruce (this title has 85 reviews on Amazon.com mostly from
people claiming to have had Out of Body experiences from having
practiced the material in the book).

I read through a few chapters of this nearly 500 page book written by
a man whom for decades trained people to have Out of Body experiences,
and then I tried the material. The first day that I had an out of
body experience I was so frightened because everything that I knew to
be true, and I mean everything came crashing down like the Tower of
Babble that was struck down by God. Terror took me like a rabbit on a
highway road looking into the headlights of a oncoming semi-truck as a
realized that spirits both good and bad had been invisible and all
around me all this time.

I purchased incredible amounts of hooligan floor lamps, and I had so
many 300 watt hooligan floor lamps that I had something like 1200
watts of light in my bed room that I used to sleep by. Even with all
this light I was terrified to go to sleep that I stayed away for
almost days, and I was even terrified to drive a car for a while
because I could not control my Out of Body experiences. I was so
frightened out of my mind because I was both frightened of life and
frightened of death that I went to college and I clung (so to speak)
to that instructor whom I knew was the most dedicated Christian that I
ever met and was the smartest man that I ever saw. I felt that out of
desperation I would come to understand the real world somehow, and
this was the best and only guide that I had and that I knew of whom
could help me. We studied the scripture together for six solid years,
and I soon came to believe that real Christianity was very rare.

Soon enough I like Peter V. became super admit about my understanding
of scripture, and I would enter fundamentalist and conservative
churches and take them all on as if they had been like hoards of
demons whom Christ would slay. Large groups of fundamentalists would
gang around me and attack me with the scripture, and I would fight
them all off like little fire ants attacking Goliath. I hated false
doctrine so much that I had every condemnation from God marked in my
bible, and at church when time existed for testimony I pulled my bible
out and frightened everyone as I would read all the condemnations that
God proclaimed in the scripture for false profits and wicked people.
I was like Peter V. but only at least 10 times more admit as a super
conservative (although he is not super conservative); moreover, my
holy rage came out to eliminate false stupid teaching and bring in the
truth forcefully through the power of God.

When someone would say something false about the scripture (or as I
thought false about the scripture), it would make me go nuts. My
bible was so worn that pages had been coming out, it was so underlined
that hardly anything was not marked, and it was so well read that I
spent at least six hours a day reading it. I separated for years from
meeting with family that I had met with for decades ever since I was a
baby, and I withdrew from everyone that I had known prior to my
conversion because I saw them as the source of my disbelief. Several
churches wanted me to attend their seminary schools and become a
minister but I turned them down, and the seminary school that I wanted
to attend turned me down.

Over time I met with many people whom had been both just about as
passionate as I was and whom had been even more passionate than I
was. These people included a Messianic Jewish leader, two entirely
different bishops (one whom came away from the Roman Catholic Church
and another whom came away from the Episcopal church), and many other
people including a homeless minister of a Baptist church whom was
homeless from time to time eating squirrels to stay alive and whom
lived such a sinful life prior to conversion that he sold his body for
services with women. Overall, because I found so many people that
believed so differently about Christianity whom I found to have my
same spirit and fervor I realized that being correct about the
scripture was not as important as I through it was, but instead what
was important was what people felt about God and how they interacted
with him in their lives.

By ordination and work with ministry I leaned that what is important
is serving people. I believe that my service helps people to develop
a relationship with God through intercession, and it also trains
people to intercede for one another (I realize that I have room to
grow in this work). Although I do not know everything and far from
it, I now realize what a valuable contribution that I can make and I
realize what a valuable contribution that others can make by us
helping each other (washing each other’s feet).

The following is a link to the work that I am talking about.
Astral Dynamics by Robert Bruce
http://www.amazon.com/Astral-Dynamics-Out-Body-Experiences/dp/1571741437/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1256974374&sr=8-1

Thank you,

Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com

[Peter VanGee]

Brother Larry:

 

Go easy on yourself.  Self-awareness is a curse.  A curse for me a curse for you.  Think its easy being me, everywhere I go I run into the antichrist.  All my anger is pent up frustation.  Frustation with what hasn't been done since the death of Christ.  Frustration with my own failures.  What we haven't done in religion is correctly identify and treat self-awareness.  Would that the fire was already burning.  When we are able to do that, to look evil in the face and chip away at its foundations...  Then we'll make some progress. 

 

The last shall be first and the first shall be last.  As long as the great collective can hold onto self-awareness and use it to tyranize the Kingdom...evil will continue to rule the world.

 

Know the Lord,

 

Pete

[Peter VanGee]

Drafterman:

 

Now, I'll take a slightly different approach.  I'm not gonna waste your time arguing proofs of God's existence.  You probably know them anyway, so what is the point of me repeating that.

 

Faith is the key here.  You either choose to have faith or you don't.  That is free will.  I can threaten, hold a noose over your head, etc.  Arguably, no matter what Matt says about that not being apart of who we are, that has already been done.  The simple truth is some people don't want God.  That is your prerogative.  If you've ever read Dante's inferno then you know that the people in hell feel like they belong there.

 

"Whoever loves his life loses it, and whoever hates his life in this world will preserve it for life eternal."  John 12.25

 

Know the Lord,

 

Pete

 

 

 

 

[Drafterman]

On Oct 31, 4:32 am, Mathew Enoch Mount <mmo...@essex1.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>

> You appear to think that I made a bunch of choices and decisions to be
> a Christian when in fact I was deeply Atheist when I entered college.

I've been trying to argue the opposite, actually. I'm saying that one
cannot simply decide to believe something as fundamental as this.
Also, I have my doubts as to whether or not you were an atheist.
Atheists, typically, don't hate god.

> I believed that the only things that existed is what was natural and
> naturally perceivable or could be naturally perceivable.  Prior to
> that I believed at one time that only I really existed and every thing
> else was like a figment of my imagination including other people (this
> is called antirealism).

How do you explain your hatred against a god you didn't believe in?

> Astral Dynamics by Robert Brucehttp://www.amazon.com/Astral-Dynamics-Out-Body-Experiences/dp/1571741...

I appreciate this insight into your personal history. I can see how
such an experience would evoke this reaction. That is to say, I
understand it from an emotional point of view, but not from a rational
point of view. You said you were attempting to use scientific methods.
I'm not sure when you had this experience, out of body experiences are
well within the realm of scientifically explicible phenomenon. It
seems (based on the information you've given me) that you abandoned
the scientific aspect and engaged things from a purely emotional point
of view.

But I do have one question: what, specifically, about your Out Of Body
Experience led you to Christianity, as opposed to some other religion?

> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -

[Drafterman]

On Oct 31, 10:28 am, Peter VanGee <petervan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Drafterman:
>
> Now, I'll take a slightly different approach.  I'm not gonna waste your time
> arguing proofs of God's existence.  You probably know them anyway, so what
> is the point of me repeating that.

I know many, sure, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that I know them
all. Otherwise I'd hardly be asking for them.

>
> Faith is the key here.  You either choose to have faith or you don't.  That
> is free will.  I can threaten, hold a noose over your head, etc.  Arguably,
> no matter what Matt says about that not being apart of who we are, that has
> already been done.  The simple truth is some people don't want God.  That is
> your prerogative.  If you've ever read Dante's inferno then you know
> that the people in hell feel like they belong there.
>
> "Whoever loves his life loses it, and whoever hates his life in this world
> will preserve it for life eternal."  John 12.25
>
> Know the Lord,
>
> Pete

So it's a roll of the die, then? If we eliminate reason then there is
nothing by which anyone can say that I should have faith in
Christianity, as opposed to any other religion? Is this on which my
eternal salvation demends?

[Peter VanGee]

Hi rafterman:

 

Did I tell you to eliminate reason?  Clearly, you're jumping the gun here for your own reasons.

 

Most proofs use creation to infer that there is a God. 

 

Faith, can be used here too, as it is a part of creation... and can be tied to scripture as the book of Hebrews states 'Faith is evidence of things unseen.'

 

Empirical Evidence of faith:

miracles - are a product of faith and they do happen - perhaps the most discussed is Fatima - if you read about it then you'll find there were many atheists and agnostics in attendence - as they wanted a reason to laugh - the day the sun danced in the sky.  Please do not bother denying miracles as they are well documented and have been recorded since the beginning of history.  If you're not going to listen to Jesus and the prophets - you probably won't listen to this either - atheist - in general - are a hard headed lot.

 

To sum up:  You can use the light of inductive logic to infer that God exists from creation.  It is also self-evident that faith exists and is a part of said-creation.  I have also given empirical evidence of faith and God working in the world - miracles.   From there, you can use free will to have faith in God.

 

Know the Lord.

 

Pete

[Drafterman]

On Nov 2, 9:55 am, Peter VanGee <petervan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi rafterman:
>
> Did I tell you to eliminate reason?  Clearly, you're jumping the gun here
> for your own reasons.

No, you did not explicitly tell me to eliminate reason, though I did
infer that from the omission of any reason in response to my direct
request for reason. If this was premature, then I apologize. But I'm
forced to ask, "Then what's the reason?"

>
> Most proofs use creation to infer that there is a God.
>
> Faith, can be used here too, as it is a part of creation... and can be tied
> to scripture as the book of Hebrews states 'Faith is evidence of things
> unseen.'
>
> Empirical Evidence of faith:
> miracles - are a product of faith and they do happen - perhaps the most
> discussed is Fatima - if you read about it then you'll find there were many
> atheists and agnostics in attendence - as they wanted a reason to laugh -
> the day the sun danced in the sky.  Please do not bother denying miracles as
> they are well documented and have been recorded since the beginning of
> history.  If you're not going to listen to Jesus and the prophets - you
> probably won't listen to this either - atheist - in general - are a hard
> headed lot.

I find it ironic that you would warn against me being closed-minded
against miracles when you shut the door me scrutinizing them. This is
no matter, even if we accept miracles this doesn't really do anything
because there are miracles for just about any religion (or, at the
very least, events interpreted by various people as being a miracle
for their religion). So you are, in fact, asking me to deny miracles:
the miracles people use as evidence for non-Christian religions.

So, again, the question is, what is the reason to accept Christian
miracles but dismiss non-Christian miracles (if not dismiss their
existence, we are still dismissing their interpretation as non-
Christian).

Why accept Jesus and his prophets but reject others?

>
> To sum up:  You can use the light of inductive logic to infer that God
> exists from creation.  It is also self-evident that faith exists and is a
> part of said-creation.  I have also given empirical evidence of faith and
> God working in the world - miracles.   From there, you can use free will
> to have faith in God.

There are several problems with this:

1. We can indeed infer from creation that there is a creator, but I do
not look upon the universe as a creation (that's begging the
question).
2. Many religions posit their god as being a creator-entity, why
should we conclude that any creator is the God of Christianity?

> > eternal salvation demends?- Hide quoted text -

[Peter VanGee]

.Rafterman:

No, you did not explicitly tell me to eliminate reason, though I did
infer that from the omission of any reason in response to my direct
request for reason. If this was premature, then I apologize. But I'm
forced to ask, "Then what's the reason?"

You lost me here. 

 

I find it ironic that you would warn against me being closed-minded
against miracles when you shut the door me scrutinizing them. This is
no matter, even if we accept miracles this doesn't really do anything
because there are miracles for just about any religion (or, at the
very least, events interpreted by various people as being a miracle
for their religion). So you are, in fact, asking me to deny miracles:
the miracles people use as evidence for non-Christian religions.

 

I only state that miracles have happened.  I have not asked you to deny evidence from non-Christian groups.  Is it ethical to pray for one group and not another?

So, again, the question is, what is the reason to accept Christian
miracles but dismiss non-Christian miracles (if not dismiss their
existence, we are still dismissing their interpretation as non-
Christian).

Again, you're jumping the gun.

Why accept Jesus and his prophets but reject others?

 

I did not tell you to.  For instance, an indian shaman - forget his name - correctly predicted an eclipse of the sun when asked to prove his legitimacy by the US cavalry. 

>
> To sum up:  You can use the light of inductive logic to infer that God
> exists from creation.  It is also self-evident that faith exists and is a
> part of said-creation.  I have also given empirical evidence of faith and
> God working in the world - miracles.   From there, you can use free will
> to have faith in God.

There are several problems with this:

1. We can indeed infer from creation that there is a creator, but I do

not look upon the universe as a (do you enjoy being pedantic? as I point out this is your free will) creation (that's begging the
question - this is not begging the question  as I have not repeated the question - I could substitute the word world or universe and they have no wordly relation to the word creator - this is inductive logic).

2. Many religions posit their god as being a creator-entity, why
should we conclude that any creator is the God of Christianity? 

other religions tend to have complex cosmologies - few others, if any,  tell the story of a people  - more empirical evidence - and their relationship with God.

 

 

 

 Know the Lord.

 

Pete

[Drafterman]

On Nov 2, 10:34 am, Peter VanGee <petervan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > .Rafterman:
>
> > No, you did not explicitly tell me to eliminate reason, though I did
> > infer that from the omission of any reason in response to my direct
> > request for reason. If this was premature, then I apologize. But I'm
> > forced to ask, "Then what's the reason?"
>
> > You lost me here.
>
> > I find it ironic that you would warn against me being closed-minded
> > against miracles when you shut the door me scrutinizing them. This is
> > no matter, even if we accept miracles this doesn't really do anything
> > because there are miracles for just about any religion (or, at the
> > very least, events interpreted by various people as being a miracle
> > for their religion). So you are, in fact, asking me to deny miracles:
> > the miracles people use as evidence for non-Christian religions.
>
> I only state that miracles have happened.  I have not asked you to deny
> evidence from non-Christian groups.

This is implicit in the discussion since we are talking about mutually
exclusive things here. We cannot accept all miracles as what they are
claimed to be.

> Is it ethical to pray for one group and
> not another?
>
>
>
> > So, again, the question is, what is the reason to accept Christian
> > miracles but dismiss non-Christian miracles (if not dismiss their
> > existence, we are still dismissing their interpretation as non-
> > Christian).
>
> > Again, you're jumping the gun.
> > Why accept Jesus and his prophets but reject others?
>
> I did not tell you to.  For instance, an indian shaman - forget his name
> - correctly predicted an eclipse of the sun when asked to prove his
> legitimacy by the US cavalry.

Predicting eclipses is nothing more than a mathematical exercise. But
yes, you are implicitly telling me to reject other prophets because
they tell a story that contradicts that of Jesus and his apostles.

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > > To sum up:  You can use the light of inductive logic to infer that God
> > > exists from creation.  It is also self-evident that faith exists and is a
> > > part of said-creation.  I have also given empirical evidence of faith and
> > > God working in the world - miracles.   From there, you can use free will
> > > to have faith in God.
>
> > There are several problems with this:
>
> > 1. We can indeed infer from creation that there is a creator, but I do
> > not look upon the universe as a (do you enjoy being pedantic? as I point
> > out this is your free will) creation (that's begging the
> > question - this is not begging the question  as I have not repeated the
> > question - I could substitute the word world or universe and they have no
> > wordly relation to the word creator - this is inductive logic).

If we remove the assumption that the universe is a creation, then I
fail to see any reason to come to the conclusion that it has a creator
using any branch of logic.

> > 2. Many religions posit their god as being a creator-entity, why
> > should we conclude that any creator is the God of Christianity?
>
> other religions tend to have complex cosmologies - few others, if any,  tell
>
>
>
> > the story of a people  - more empirical evidence - and their relationship
> > with God.
> >  Know the Lord.

> > Pete- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[ON EARTH Ministries]

Have you ever been in love, Scott?

[Peter VanGee]

 

This is implicit in the discussion since we are talking about mutually
exclusive things here. We cannot accept all miracles as what they are
claimed to be.

With regard to miracles, as I'm sure you know,  the Catholic Church requires at least 2 documented miracles to become a saint.  You may call into question the methods used.   I don't.

 

>
> I did not tell you to.  For instance, an indian shaman - forget his name
> - correctly predicted an eclipse of the sun when asked to prove his
> legitimacy by the US cavalry.

Predicting eclipses is nothing more than a mathematical exercise. But
yes, you are implicitly telling me to reject other prophets because
they tell a story that contradicts that of Jesus and his apostles.

You're talking about a guy, a couple of hundred years ago, that didn't even know how to read.  From what I understand, by watching the documentary, the eclipse came out of nowhere and took everyone by surprise.  Did he contradict Jesus?  I don't know.  You seem to know an awful lot about him.

If we remove the assumption that the universe is a creation, then I
fail to see any reason to come to the conclusion that it has a creator
using any branch of logic.

 

 

Yes, we are in agreement.  We have free will.  I choose to think that somewhere back there God created the universe.  I guess you choose to think either everything was always here or at some point it came to be out of nothing...or some other option.  This is the problem with an inductive conclusion.  Its not right in front of you.  "Faith is evidence of things unseen."  I will also add that I have had mystical experiences with God.   One was a very specific dream where I was told God would come to me in 3 nights.  He did come.

 

Know the Lord,

 

Pete

[Peter VanGee]

Clearly not!

[Mathew Enoch Mount]

Hello,

When I was an atheist I do not think that I realized that I hated God,
and I only realized this when I become a Christian. It would be wrong
to say that in some ways that I was emotional because in my youth my
parents almost constantly screamed, and my father went into rages
about anything and everything seemingly. As a result in my youth the
only emotion that I felt was fear for the most part, and eventually I
did not feel any emotions at all.

Instructors in elementary school praised me saying, "if only every
student in my class could be like Mathew." For a little over a decide
I only answered questions with yes or no, and I only elaborated when
directed to do so. This was a lifestyle of mine because my father
used every possible power that he could to control my emotions if I
had them, so my best course of action was to learn not to have them.

According to my mother the only reason why I was not taken from my
home when I was younger is because I was getting such good grades in
school. The message that came from the educational institution is
that we can only be saved by the work of our own hands, and that the
only thing that is real is what we can experience with the five
senses. The fact is that an atheist may not realize that he hates God
because he thinks himself to be God manufacturing whatever he pleases
for his own pleasure.

In the time of Jesus Christ God appeared as himself in himself, and to
those whom God had chosen to reveal himself to God became obvious.
Today God reveals himself through people and the scripture more than
anything else. When you experience God, it is like walking out of a
dark refrigerator that you have lived in all your life into a full
summer day with the sun penetrating through you.

For the three thousand years of the scripture God has been showing
himself to people. Those people have been saying the most unpopular
things for the most part to work against sin, and they all bring us a
message in scripture that is consistent and has been proven correct
hundreds and thousands of years after the message was given. Even two
thousand years after the scripture God has not only shown himself to
millions and millions of people, but he has gone so far as to dwell
inside of them.

When I first became saved, I was filled with a joy that could never be
extinguished. Everything that was upon me that made me hate God left
in a flash, and I never felt such a thing before. At that time the
Holy Ghost overshadowed me and began to dwell within me, and things
began to change.

The people around me began to change. From then on every bad emotion
that I felt was simply just superficial (very superficial). This was
the beginning of something that would only grow stronger with time,
and none of it was a result of my efforts to change myself nor was it
the result of men or women in my live trying to change me.

Faith comes from God and from God alone,

Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com

[Adam Colbert]

Drafterman, i'm gonna copy and paste some of your responses from
various replies......

> I agree. This is made even more difficult by people who think there is
> no way to explain it; one must simply experience it. But this opinion
> is not universal. There are those that say that belief in God cannot
> come through rational means (for example, Pascal) and those that
> believe it can (such as Aquinas). Now, obviously my question is a dead
> end for those that are on the Pascal side of things. I'm hoping to
> converse with those that belief that there are convincing arguments
> (I'm not talking about 100% die-hard proof, simply a logically sound
> reason) and see what they have to offer.

> I concede that this is not an easy task, despite the simplicity of the
> question. The main impression that I get is that believers have,
> primarily, personal justification. Validation of their believe that
> they have received or developed internally and run into a barrier when
> trying to express or explain this justification to others. The problem
> is that, if it is the position of this religion that everyone *should*
> believe, and will suffer if they don't, then this barrier must be
> crossed.

> We can certainly try this method, it's how differential diagnosis
> works in medicine (Thank you, "House"). My stance of unbelief comes
> from having never been taught to believe by my family, and not coming
> to believe of my own accord. When I look at the Bible, I do not see
> that it is any more different (by way of factuality) than any other
> mythological work.

>What I'm doing here is
> offering an invitation to critique my faithlessness. What about
> questions that a believer would ask an unbeliever?

> The problem here is that I've done just that. I've at many times in my
> life I have thrown caution to the wind and sincerely stretched out my
> thoughts in an effort to contact anything that may be out there. I
> have been specific. I have been general. I have been kind. I have been
> mean. I have tried bargaining. I can honestly say that I have felt
> nothing in response to these attempts, nor am aware of any discernible
> response to them

here are some of my thoughts to that as a whole.

first of all, you are allowing yourself for an open critique. in that
much, you are inviting us to critique/probe the areas of your mind in
places you might have missed or in ways you might not be aware of.

secondly, i see what you mean about calling yourself an atheist as
opposed to an agnostic. but, judging by the words of your
[ummm....one, two three...] fifth paragraph, you are not at all
opposed to the idea of believing in a Supreme Lord. in fact, if God is
out there, in you, around the corner, anywhere, then you are not
opposed to following and knowing Him. but, as things are, you don't
have a basis for belief. you've never experienced this "faith" -
whatever it may be - that people, Christian, are always speaking
about. you're not opposed to having faith; you just don't have it. you
realize you can't force it into being.

i'll copy and paste your fifth paragraph (or what became the "fifth"
paragraph of what i've included) again for emphasis:

> The problem here is that I've done just that. I've at many times in my
> life I have thrown caution to the wind and sincerely stretched out my
> thoughts in an effort to contact anything that may be out there. I
> have been specific. I have been general. I have been kind. I have been
> mean. I have tried bargaining. I can honestly say that I have felt
> nothing in response to these attempts, nor am aware of any discernible
> response to them.

so you seem to be agnostic, i.e. "there may or may not be a god," for
nobody would eagerly call out to the invisible expanse (repeatedly, at
that) if they were not at least open if not desirous for a
supernatural response. but simultaneously you are atheistic, i.e. "I
don't believe there is a god," in that you have not arrived at such a
belief, despite that you are willing and unopposed to believing should
such a deity make its presence known to you in a clear, unambiguous
manner.

now, lemme ask you something. inside, i'm really thinking "you're
wrong here, and let me show you," and i'm thinking it AT you - i'm
just being honest in my intent - but let me pose it as a question. and
please think honestly about it. in fact, don't even put effort into
thinking about it. 1) plant the question in your mind; 2) clear you
mind of EVERYTHING, the question included, take slow, deep breaths,
and think/say with each exhale "three, three three...... two, two,
two...... one, one, one........" (the point here is to literally slow
your brainwaves); 3) without actively seeking after an answer (this
may be hard to do, so you may want to go back to BOTH steps 1 and 2
another time or two), bring the question back into your mind. now, i
haven't even told you the question yet (truth be told, i've kinda
forgot exactly how i initially had it phrased, myself), but i want you
to solidify those steps first. now, after having done so, ask yourself
this question: "If I had faith, would I believe?"

faith and belief are two separate things. i once asked Mathew what the
difference was, and he said something like "when you turn on a light
switch, you believe it will turn on; when you sit on a chair, you have
faith that it will support you." i don't know how much it will help
you, but my "assignment" i'd like to give you - for your long-term
self-evaluation - is to observe your faith and your belief,
separately. don't THINK about them; observe them.

the reason i bring all this up, and the reason i "think you're wrong"
as i stated earlier, is that, in the second quoted paragraph way up
above, you talk about believers having faith. now, you don't say the
word "faith".............but with you speaking about believers, and i
as a believer reading that paragraph can tell you that this "personal
justification, validation" is faith. in the third paragraph, however,
you speak of your unbelief. so you went from directly alluding to
others' faith, and then to your personal unbelief as if you simply
haven't been taught in the proper manner or read the right things in
order to come to this belief you so seek. never having been taught
certainly can contribute to the problem (now would be a good time to
read Romans 10:14), but even hearing in itself isn't enough. there has
to be some sort of life changing event. this event may be triggered
outwardly, but the event itself is an inward event that literally
changes your life; it's an event of faith. it can't be forced, but
seeds for its preparation can be planted. keep knocking, seeking, and
asking. your cause is just.

[Drafterman]

On Nov 2, 3:33 pm, ON EARTH Ministries

<onearth.ministries.br.woodsm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Have you ever been in love, Scott?

Yes, I have. Currently am, actually.

[Drafterman]

> asking. your cause is just.- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

The question seems to be a no brainer. If I had faith, I obviously
would believe.

[ON EARTH Ministries]

Scott -
The reason I asked about love is pretty basic. And I'm trying to find
the words to clearly convey my own ongoing journey.
When I was living with the Brothers of the Poor St. Francis I believed
in the "concept" of there being one who was the author of reality. I
believed that someone lived two-thousand years ago named Jesus, who
was the best, most loving, insightful, and historically influential
human that ever lived.
And then I found God, right?
NOPE.
My struggle at this time was a intellectual one. I was trying to
reconcile a cultural religious construct with my own expanding
knowledge and experience. I , studied, struggled, and reevaluated.
Eventually I lost interest. I thought that something that required so
much justification had a funny smell to it. I fell in love with a girl
I knew from school, but I was self-absorbed and distracted. The swift
current of life swept me away.
I tried all kinds of politics, philosophies, lifestyles, drugs, sex.
Within the a period of five years of leaving the Brothers I found
myself homeless, a Marine in Asia, imprisoned in a foreign country,
and then in Iowa getting married to that girl from school, having a
daughter, a neighbor of the Amish, raising sheep and heating my house
with wood.
I saw all of these good thing beginning to happen in my life, and then
I found God, right?
NOPE.
I hunkered down. I muddled through. I struggled to stay employed. I
tried to convince people I was what I wanted to be. I wanted to be
good. I ran through a lot of different impossible ideas of what I
thought that meant. Pretending to be clever, smart, or talented, or
'together'. All the time hoping not to be found out. I was sure I
was a phony. A self fulfilling prophecy.
I did become "Christ curious" again though. I started studying my
bible again. Of course, I was still intellectualizing, and from a
'safer distance' this time, so as to gain 'perspective'.
And then I found God, right?
NOPE.
It's funny, but I knew the exact moment the "Holy Spirit" came to me.
You know it when it happens. Unequivocally.
A few years ago I found myself singing folk songs I had wrote, for my
enstranged mother, who was literally on her deathbed. We reconciled.
We talked about a lot of things including God. She told me before she
began to fade, somewhat uncharacteristically, that everything was
fine, she was ready, she had made her peace, and knew that she would
live forever in heaven.
In the last second of her life, as she stopped breathing, she opened
her eyes, and with a calmly surprised expression and quietly said,
"Oh!" I think it was much more than she could have possibly imagined.
I didn’t cry. The nurses seemed confused. I gave my mother a kiss
and said, "My mother and I were alike in many ways. The gift that she
gave me was a life with meaning. Everything meant something to her.
Birds on a power line, the shape of clouds, oil in a puddle of water,
all poetic art. She taught me that the only true justice was poetic
justice."
At that moment, along with my mom, I caught a glimpse of The Author,
The Poet of Life. Since then the tiny seed continues to grow,
spreading like the mustard plant. When I see the humanity in the
faces of the college students on the bus, look at the blue sky, or
think about the vastness of the universe, a tear comes to my eye. I
genuinely love all I see that is good and beautiful, and ache for all
that is broken, wounded, and suffering. And I love the Creator of it
all.
I had to fall in love.

Peace, and All Good Things,

[Mathew Enoch Mount]

"The LORD said, "Go out and stand on the mountain in the presence of
the LORD, for the LORD is about to pass by." Then a great and
powerful wind tore the mountains apart and shattered the rocks before
the LORD, but the LORD was not in the wind. After the wind there was
an earthquake, but the LORD was not in the earthquake. After the
earthquake came a fire, but the LORD was not in the fire. And after
the fire came a gentle whisper. When Elijah heard it, he pulled his
cloak over his face and went out and stood at the mouth of the cave.
Then a voice said to him, "What are you doing here, Elijah?" He
replied, "I have been very zealous for the LORD God Almighty. The
Israelites have rejected your covenant, broken down your altars, and
put your prophets to death with the sword. I am the only one left, and
now they are trying to kill me too." 1 Kings 19:11-14 (NIV)

On Nov 3, 5:24 pm, ON EARTH Ministries

[Adam Colbert]

Larry, i cannot thank you enough for including this. not just to
illuminate the matter to others, but to illuminate to me that you
understand this crisis so lucidly. in a way, you have summed up why -
if ever a Bible had a reason to be burned, it was so that - all Bibles
remaining would have "YHWH" in the Old Testament where they now have
"the LORD." many things can still be gained if this aspect is missed,
but to miss it - to not conscientiously read/pronounce the formally
given NAME of our Lord as instructed by our Lord, Himself - is to
truly miss out on a lot. Abba YHWH wants us to be blessed by HIS NAME
- not "his name" or "the LORD," but his actual name! to do otherwise
is to limit - knowingly or unknowingly - the power that otherwise
woulda been coulda been unleashed! i've said it before, and i'll say
it again, there's power in the name of Jesus, there's power in the
name of Yahweh, but "the Lord" are mere words. whether you've never
known any better, or if you're just a creature of habit, or if you're
just too scared to unleash the full power of scripture, anytime you
say "the LORD" rather than going all out and speaking our Lord's NAME,
Yahweh [arguably in different pronunciations, and that's okay], you
are making the decision to limit your God's reign in your mode of
worship.

or, Larry, am i just telling you things you already know? if so, then
at least there is no harm in hearing them again, right?

keep on keepin on.

adam

On Oct 30, 3:02 pm, ON EARTH Ministries

<onearth.ministries.br.woodsm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> there are times when I cringe when I read
> the word "God".  It's so generic, limited, misused, and preposterously
> "defining" and "confining".  There's just something that seems wrong,
> as if the "Book of Life" were published, and underneath the title it
> said "Author".  And with the emotional quality of introducing your
> loving mother and father as "My direct male and female descendants".
> Jesus touched on this when he said "Abba" or "Daddy".

> --

[Drafterman]

I'd like to thank everyone for the time they've provided here
(including Peter), but it does not seem that I'm going to find what
I'm looking for.

You have provided some very interesting and revealing anecdotes maybe
my life will happen such that I have similar experiences that affect
me the same way.

I will take a look at some of the references provided, and keep an eye
on this thread of anyone else wishes to continue to discuss this topic.

[Adam Colbert]

by the way, i also wanted to mention the book "More than just a
carpenter" by Josh McDowell (not sure about the spelling). it's a
quick, short read, but it's a very good book. i got it at a used book
sale, so that's how i became aware of it. i mention it especially
because it involves his personal account of going from atheism to
becoming Christian. so in that respect you might perhaps find some
relevance. but thanks for stopping into the group, and always feel
free to comment or ask about whatever :).

[Mathew Enoch Mount]

Scott,

I believe that if you think about all of the sins that you have
committed during your lifetime and if you grieve these things, then be
baptized while repenting of these things as an act of trust that God
will give you the correct faith that he will show himself and give
himself to you. Then the Holy Ghost will come upon you (perhaps not
at that moment) and you will know the lord.

Consider the following scripture that supports my claim.
---
"Now the glory of the God of Israel went up from above the cherubim,
where it had been, and moved to the threshold of the temple. Then the
LORD called to the man clothed in linen who had the writing kit at his
side and said to him, "Go throughout the city of Jerusalem and put a
mark on the foreheads of those who grieve and lament over all the
detestable things that are done in it." Ezekiel 9:3-4 (NIV)

"After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the
earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind
from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. Then I saw
another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living
God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been
given power to harm the land and the sea: "Do not harm the land or
the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the
servants of our God." Then I heard the number of those who were
sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel." Revelation 7:1-4 …
"All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names
have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that
was slain from the creation of the world." Revelation 13:8 (NIV)
---
"1In those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the Desert of
Judea 2and saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near." …11"I
baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who
is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will
baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. 12His winnowing fork
is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his
wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire."
Matthew 3:1-12 (NIV)

"As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that
moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like
a dove and lighting on him. 17And a voice from heaven said, "This is
my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased." Matthew 3:16-17
(NIV)

"When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the
word of God, they sent Peter and John to them. When they arrived,
they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, because
the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply
been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. Then Peter and John
placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit." Acts
8:14-17 (NIV)

"We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not
the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to
nothing. No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been
hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of
the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not
have crucified the Lord of glory. However, as it is written: "No eye
has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has
prepared for those who love him"— but God has revealed it to us by his
Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.
For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit
within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except
the Spirit of God. We have not received the spirit of the world but
the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely
given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human
wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths
in spiritual words. The man without the Spirit does not accept the
things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to
him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually
discerned. The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he
himself is not subject to any man's judgment: "For who has known the
mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of
Christ." 1 Corinthians 2:6-16 (NIV)

Thank you,

Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com

On Nov 9, 8:41 am, Drafterman <drafter...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Adam Colbert]

as Mathew said, the message of repentance (which can only come after
thoroughly acknowledging one's sins) is perhaps the single most
important "starting point" for coming to God (or having God come to
you) according to scripture.