Pharisees- Who are they?
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Mathew Enoch Mount
Nov 11, 2009, 4:22:04 AM11/11/09
to Jesus On the Web
Hello,
I just want to use this time to explain exactly whom the Pharisees had
been, so that you can understand what Jesus was up against when he
spoke against the Pharisees. The following scripture is the most
clear description of the attitude of the Pharisees, "To some who were
confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody
else, Jesus told this parable: "Two men went up to the temple to pray,
one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up
and prayed about himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other
men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I
fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.' "But the tax
collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven,
but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.' "I
tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified
before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he
who humbles himself will be exalted." Luke 18:9-14 (NIV) The main
point is as I will explain that Jesus Christ clearly shows is that the
Pharisees saw themselves as righteous above others, they did not
intercede for others producing fruit in others, they held themselves
up in pride over others while looking good on the outside but being
filled with death on the inside, and lastly they over burdened men
with the law when they did not even care to help people in their
challenges.
Consider Matthew 3:5-12 for in the text we see the Pharisees
approaching John the Baptist, and he speaks to them saying such things
as, "you brood of vipers", "Who warned you to flee from the coming
wrath", and "produce fruit in keeping with repentance." (NIV) John
the Baptist then warned of the chaff being burnt when the fruits are
gathered into the barn. This tells us immediately that the Pharisees
had not been repetitive of their sins and it tells us that the big
fault that they had was that they had been unfruitful.
We also learn that Christ is in favor of the teaching of the law and
that the only way that we can enter the kingdom of heaven is if our
righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees. The lord thus says the
following, "Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments
and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom
of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be
called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless
your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of
the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." Matthew
5:19-20 (NIV) We also learn that when Christ ate at Matthew’s house
many tax collectors and sins gathered with Jesus and his students, and
the Pharisees did not understand the purpose of intercession so they
made comments about what Jesus was doing and he said, "it is not the
healthy that need a physician but the sick." Matthew 9:10-12 Overall,
unlike what many believe the problem that the Pharisees faced was that
they did not invest what God gave them into others in ways that had
been fruitful, and thus they separated themselves from others and did
not do the work of God (like the problem of the story of the good
Samaritan).
The entire chapter of Matthew 12 teaches us that the Pharisees would
not even recognize the works of Jesus Christ as being good (such as in
the case of Christ driving out demons), and not only that but the
Pharisees are also seen as holding closely to the letter of the law
while rejecting the spirit of the law (this is the message we get when
Christ defends his disciples as they eat grain from a field on the
Sabbath as Jesus says that the Lord is the Lord of the Sabbath and
that the Sabbath is made for man and not man for the Sabbath). Jesus
goes so far as to quote Isaiah in speaking about the Pharisees as he
says, "These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far
from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules
taught by men." Matthew 15:8-9 (NIV) Jesus also spoke about the
Pharisees saying, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted
will be pulled up by the roots." Matthew 15:13 (NIV)
In Matthew 22:15-22 we learn about paying taxes to Caesar as the
Pharisees ask Jesus about this in order to trap him, but Jesus simply
asks who’s picture is on the coin "the people said Caesar" and Jesus
thus made a clear distinction between the kingdom of God and the
kingdom of Caesar by saying "give to God what belongs to God and to
Caesar what belongs to Caesar." Matthew 23 is about the seven woes
given to the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, and these are that
they tie heavy lords on men’s shoulders but will not lift a finger to
help, everything they do is done for man to see, they are blind
guides, they neglect the most important matters of the law namely
justice, mercy, and faithfulness, they look good on the outside but on
the inside are full of greed, self-indulgence, dead men’s bones, and
everything unclean, they act as if they are more righteous than their
forefathers whom killed the profits, and lastly Christ concludes the
matter by saying the following, "Therefore I am sending you prophets
and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify;
others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.
And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed
on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah
son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation."
Matthew 23:34-36 (NIV) Lastly according to Matthew 27:62-66 after
Christ was crucified the Pharisees went so far as to have a guard put
on the tomb because Christ said that he would rise in three days (they
remembered this fact prior to even the twelve remembering this fact),
and every attempt was made to seal the tomb and guard it.
The point in all of this is that the Pharisees did not see the law as
being spoken about the righteousness of Jesus Christ, but instead they
saw it as like a testimony to their own righteousness apart from
Christ. The fundamental difference between Jesus Christ and the
Pharisees is that Christ served man even through he is God even to the
extent of being crucified as he underwent all manner of torment
whereas the Pharisees had only been concerned about carefully
following the letter of the law for their own gains (Jesus even says
You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel - Matthew
23:24 (NIV)). Overall, the point is that unlike what most people
think it was not the law or the study of the law that caused the
Pharisees to be condemned, but instead it was the pride and failure to
serve others with ‘their gifts’ that made them wicked.
I just want to use this time to explain exactly whom the Pharisees had
been, so that you can understand what Jesus was up against when he
spoke against the Pharisees. The following scripture is the most
clear description of the attitude of the Pharisees, "To some who were
confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody
else, Jesus told this parable: "Two men went up to the temple to pray,
one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up
and prayed about himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other
men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I
fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.' "But the tax
collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven,
but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.' "I
tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified
before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he
who humbles himself will be exalted." Luke 18:9-14 (NIV) The main
point is as I will explain that Jesus Christ clearly shows is that the
Pharisees saw themselves as righteous above others, they did not
intercede for others producing fruit in others, they held themselves
up in pride over others while looking good on the outside but being
filled with death on the inside, and lastly they over burdened men
with the law when they did not even care to help people in their
challenges.
Consider Matthew 3:5-12 for in the text we see the Pharisees
approaching John the Baptist, and he speaks to them saying such things
as, "you brood of vipers", "Who warned you to flee from the coming
wrath", and "produce fruit in keeping with repentance." (NIV) John
the Baptist then warned of the chaff being burnt when the fruits are
gathered into the barn. This tells us immediately that the Pharisees
had not been repetitive of their sins and it tells us that the big
fault that they had was that they had been unfruitful.
We also learn that Christ is in favor of the teaching of the law and
that the only way that we can enter the kingdom of heaven is if our
righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees. The lord thus says the
following, "Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments
and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom
of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be
called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless
your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of
the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." Matthew
5:19-20 (NIV) We also learn that when Christ ate at Matthew’s house
many tax collectors and sins gathered with Jesus and his students, and
the Pharisees did not understand the purpose of intercession so they
made comments about what Jesus was doing and he said, "it is not the
healthy that need a physician but the sick." Matthew 9:10-12 Overall,
unlike what many believe the problem that the Pharisees faced was that
they did not invest what God gave them into others in ways that had
been fruitful, and thus they separated themselves from others and did
not do the work of God (like the problem of the story of the good
Samaritan).
The entire chapter of Matthew 12 teaches us that the Pharisees would
not even recognize the works of Jesus Christ as being good (such as in
the case of Christ driving out demons), and not only that but the
Pharisees are also seen as holding closely to the letter of the law
while rejecting the spirit of the law (this is the message we get when
Christ defends his disciples as they eat grain from a field on the
Sabbath as Jesus says that the Lord is the Lord of the Sabbath and
that the Sabbath is made for man and not man for the Sabbath). Jesus
goes so far as to quote Isaiah in speaking about the Pharisees as he
says, "These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far
from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules
taught by men." Matthew 15:8-9 (NIV) Jesus also spoke about the
Pharisees saying, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted
will be pulled up by the roots." Matthew 15:13 (NIV)
In Matthew 22:15-22 we learn about paying taxes to Caesar as the
Pharisees ask Jesus about this in order to trap him, but Jesus simply
asks who’s picture is on the coin "the people said Caesar" and Jesus
thus made a clear distinction between the kingdom of God and the
kingdom of Caesar by saying "give to God what belongs to God and to
Caesar what belongs to Caesar." Matthew 23 is about the seven woes
given to the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, and these are that
they tie heavy lords on men’s shoulders but will not lift a finger to
help, everything they do is done for man to see, they are blind
guides, they neglect the most important matters of the law namely
justice, mercy, and faithfulness, they look good on the outside but on
the inside are full of greed, self-indulgence, dead men’s bones, and
everything unclean, they act as if they are more righteous than their
forefathers whom killed the profits, and lastly Christ concludes the
matter by saying the following, "Therefore I am sending you prophets
and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify;
others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.
And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed
on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah
son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation."
Matthew 23:34-36 (NIV) Lastly according to Matthew 27:62-66 after
Christ was crucified the Pharisees went so far as to have a guard put
on the tomb because Christ said that he would rise in three days (they
remembered this fact prior to even the twelve remembering this fact),
and every attempt was made to seal the tomb and guard it.
The point in all of this is that the Pharisees did not see the law as
being spoken about the righteousness of Jesus Christ, but instead they
saw it as like a testimony to their own righteousness apart from
Christ. The fundamental difference between Jesus Christ and the
Pharisees is that Christ served man even through he is God even to the
extent of being crucified as he underwent all manner of torment
whereas the Pharisees had only been concerned about carefully
following the letter of the law for their own gains (Jesus even says
You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel - Matthew
23:24 (NIV)). Overall, the point is that unlike what most people
think it was not the law or the study of the law that caused the
Pharisees to be condemned, but instead it was the pride and failure to
serve others with ‘their gifts’ that made them wicked.
Mathew Enoch Mount
Nov 11, 2009, 5:27:20 AM11/11/09
to Jesus On the Web
Hello,
In talking about the Pharisees I will attempt to give some real life
examples in order for people to better understand what kind of people
that Jesus is most strikingly opposed to. In doing so hopefully you
will be able to guard against such things in your own life, and you
will be able to recognize the ‘Pharisees’ when you see them. Overall,
I hope this to be helpful for everyone (many of you will find what I
have to say as obvious).
In my own community it has been said that at one time the richest man
in the world lived just in the town next door, and this was the case
because he owned three steel production plants that existed in this
community that had its own rail road system and at one point had the
world’s largest steel furnace. As a result of this wealth, many huge
stone churches exist around town that have incredible wealth with
hardly any members. I have visited some of these churches to see
exactly what goes on inside of them, and in many cases I think that
people attend in order to feel saved.
I have in fact been told that some of the churches will only welcome
people by invitation only. Many of them will have members whom point
out things that they see as being problems in the world in terms of
the faults of other people like for example ‘people having tattoos’
and these members will be wealthy such as attorneys and the other such
kinds of high ranking officials, but they will put so much meaning on
such little faults that they see in others while they will never seek
to take even one step to help those whom they condemn by these little
faults. Often many of these churches that are very wealthy and very
old will have many people whom attend whom hardly associate with each
other, and the message that comes from the pulpit hardly even has any
point.
Sometimes the messages from the pulpit are so generic that they are
just an expression of the theology of the denomination with hardly any
inspired reading of the biblical text and often with hardly any bible
mentioned at all. The people are like mindless robots whom hardly
know anything about God and in many cases they hardly even care about
God, and yet for some strange reason people give vast sums of money to
the church as they teach a super liberal politically correct doctrine
that is taught in such a way that everyone would agree. I have come
to realize that if a person is a professional of some type that they
would seek to attend places like this in order to meet with other
community leaders and get to know who is who in the community in order
to have a network of people that together hold the leadership behind
the curtain so to speak, and my point in saying this is that the
institution of the church often thus becomes a political place for
making business and community allies (that is to say that this happens
when people are at lest a little sociable).
These churches often keep many of the same attitudes of the Pharisees,
but they may throw out the law of Moses (thinking that this is what
Christ was against). They then become like a new kind of Pharisee
whom each and everyone only cares about him or her self, and they are
totally devoid of any love at all. Lastly they see themselves as
being righteous community leaders whom God has blessed in a fallen
world because they go to the correct church for one hour a week as
they are careful not to have anything to do with a sinner. Do you
really think that the purpose of the cross was to make being a
Pharisee a whole lot easier and simplistic so that everyone would have
this so called ‘salvation’?
Just to drive this point home one day my mother know of someone whom
she worked with whom had a boyfriend whom was rebellious and went to
the rich cemetery at night in order to cause misconduct. This
cemetery has the graves of all the former community leaders whom
probably attended all the rich churches in town. When he walked up to
the gave of what was at one time the richest man in town, a ghost
appeared to him, and the ghost said to him, "are you dead too?"
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
In talking about the Pharisees I will attempt to give some real life
examples in order for people to better understand what kind of people
that Jesus is most strikingly opposed to. In doing so hopefully you
will be able to guard against such things in your own life, and you
will be able to recognize the ‘Pharisees’ when you see them. Overall,
I hope this to be helpful for everyone (many of you will find what I
have to say as obvious).
In my own community it has been said that at one time the richest man
in the world lived just in the town next door, and this was the case
because he owned three steel production plants that existed in this
community that had its own rail road system and at one point had the
world’s largest steel furnace. As a result of this wealth, many huge
stone churches exist around town that have incredible wealth with
hardly any members. I have visited some of these churches to see
exactly what goes on inside of them, and in many cases I think that
people attend in order to feel saved.
I have in fact been told that some of the churches will only welcome
people by invitation only. Many of them will have members whom point
out things that they see as being problems in the world in terms of
the faults of other people like for example ‘people having tattoos’
and these members will be wealthy such as attorneys and the other such
kinds of high ranking officials, but they will put so much meaning on
such little faults that they see in others while they will never seek
to take even one step to help those whom they condemn by these little
faults. Often many of these churches that are very wealthy and very
old will have many people whom attend whom hardly associate with each
other, and the message that comes from the pulpit hardly even has any
point.
Sometimes the messages from the pulpit are so generic that they are
just an expression of the theology of the denomination with hardly any
inspired reading of the biblical text and often with hardly any bible
mentioned at all. The people are like mindless robots whom hardly
know anything about God and in many cases they hardly even care about
God, and yet for some strange reason people give vast sums of money to
the church as they teach a super liberal politically correct doctrine
that is taught in such a way that everyone would agree. I have come
to realize that if a person is a professional of some type that they
would seek to attend places like this in order to meet with other
community leaders and get to know who is who in the community in order
to have a network of people that together hold the leadership behind
the curtain so to speak, and my point in saying this is that the
institution of the church often thus becomes a political place for
making business and community allies (that is to say that this happens
when people are at lest a little sociable).
These churches often keep many of the same attitudes of the Pharisees,
but they may throw out the law of Moses (thinking that this is what
Christ was against). They then become like a new kind of Pharisee
whom each and everyone only cares about him or her self, and they are
totally devoid of any love at all. Lastly they see themselves as
being righteous community leaders whom God has blessed in a fallen
world because they go to the correct church for one hour a week as
they are careful not to have anything to do with a sinner. Do you
really think that the purpose of the cross was to make being a
Pharisee a whole lot easier and simplistic so that everyone would have
this so called ‘salvation’?
Just to drive this point home one day my mother know of someone whom
she worked with whom had a boyfriend whom was rebellious and went to
the rich cemetery at night in order to cause misconduct. This
cemetery has the graves of all the former community leaders whom
probably attended all the rich churches in town. When he walked up to
the gave of what was at one time the richest man in town, a ghost
appeared to him, and the ghost said to him, "are you dead too?"
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
Evan Hale
Nov 12, 2009, 9:47:30 AM11/12/09
to jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
Something that's always confused me is Jesus' apparent simultaneous support and disdain for the Torah. You've quote passages where He regards even the least commandment as necessary to follow, but He also seems to indicate in other places that the dietary restrictions are unnecessary, oath-taking is Satanic, and the Mosaic divorce regulations are less strict than God's "real" will would have them. I would like to know how you reconcile these apparent contradictions.
Thank you,
Evan "The alternative to tragedy is damnation." --C.S. Lewis --- On Wed, 11/11/09, Mathew Enoch Mount <mmo...@essex1.com> wrote: |
Mathew Enoch Mount
Nov 12, 2009, 5:26:34 PM11/12/09
to Jesus On the Web
Hello,
First of all Christ is not a Levite Priest (he is from Judah and not
Levie). Second Christ is of the order of Melchizedek whom was the
king of Salem or what is now known of as Jerusalem (in Genesis 14:18
Melchizedek brought bread and wine out to Abraham after he won the
first world war as he entered the war to rescue lot Hebrews 7:1). The
point is that Christ being of the order of Melchizedek supersedes the
order of the Levites according to scripture.
Consider the following in Hebrews 7:1-14, "This Melchizedek was king
of Salem and priest of God Most High. He met Abraham returning from
the defeat of the kings and blessed him, and Abraham gave him a tenth
of everything. First, his name means "king of righteousness"; then
also, "king of Salem" means "king of peace." Without father or
mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life,
like the Son of God he remains a priest forever. Just think how great
he was: Even the patriarch Abraham gave him a tenth of the plunder!
Now the law requires the descendants of Levi who become priests to
collect a tenth from the people—that is, their brothers—even though
their brothers are descended from Abraham. This man, however, did not
trace his descent from Levi, yet he collected a tenth from Abraham and
blessed him who had the promises. And without doubt the lesser person
is blessed by the greater. In the one case, the tenth is collected by
men who die; but in the other case, by him who is declared to be
living. One might even say that Levi, who collects the tenth, paid
the tenth through Abraham, because when Melchizedek met Abraham, Levi
was still in the body of his ancestor. If perfection could have been
attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the
law was given to the people), why was there still need for another
priest to come—one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of
Aaron? For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also
be a change of the law. He of whom these things are said belonged to
a different tribe, and no one from that tribe has ever served at the
altar. For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, and in
regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests."
Consider Psalm 110 as it is written to address Jesus Christ, "The LORD
says to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a
footstool for your feet." The LORD will extend your mighty scepter
from Zion; you will rule in the midst of your enemies. Your troops
will be willing on your day of battle. Arrayed in holy majesty, from
the womb of the dawn you will receive the dew of your youth. The LORD
has sworn
and will not change his mind: "You are a priest forever, in the order
of Melchizedek." The Lord is at your right hand; he will crush kings
on the day of his wrath. He will judge the nations, heaping up the
dead and crushing the rulers of the whole earth. He will drink from a
brook beside the way; therefore he will lift up his head." (NIV)
Regarding the dietary regulations we read the following in Ezekiel
16:16-20, "You took some of your garments to make gaudy high places,
where you carried on your prostitution. Such things should not happen,
nor should they ever occur. You also took the fine jewelry I gave
you, the jewelry made of my gold and silver, and you made for yourself
male idols and engaged in prostitution with them. And you took your
embroidered clothes to put on them, and you offered my oil and incense
before them. Also the food I provided for you—the fine flour, olive
oil and honey I gave you to eat—you offered as fragrant incense before
them. That is what happened, declares the Sovereign LORD. " 'And you
took your sons and daughters whom you bore to me and sacrificed them
as food to the idols. Was your prostitution not enough?" (NIV) This
passage is in the greater context of Ezekiel 16 that talks about
Jerusalem being a infant that was thrown out and found by God whom he
raised himself, and latter he took that infant to be his wife when it
developed and matured. Overall, as a result of God’s hostility toward
the wicked actions of Jerusalem he turned them over to eating all the
detestable things that the law of Moses condemns.
In Ezekiel 16:51-52 we read, "Samaria did not commit half the sins you
did. You have done more detestable things than they, and have made
your sisters seem righteous by all these things you have done. Bear
your disgrace, for you have furnished some justification for your
sisters. Because your sins were more vile than theirs, they appear
more righteous than you. So then, be ashamed and bear your disgrace,
for you have made your sisters appear righteous." (NIV) What this
tells us is that Samaria (comprising those whom had been scattered to
the nations) had actually appeared more righteous than Jerusalem
(consider the parable of the good Samaritan), and as a result God
found reason to justify the gentiles over the Jews. Overall, thus if
people delight in eating pigs brains, eyes of cows, and a dog’s tongue
but yet are righteous in their living, then why would God not bless
them?
Regarding oaths and divorce does not God judge between demons? Even
Solomon himself had to judge between two prostitutes in their claim
for a child. Overall, when people took on the new nature of Christ
they no longer had demons in the house of God to judge between, and as
a result the law became more strict in some places because the new law
was for people whom had the righteousness of Christ inside of them.
First of all Christ is not a Levite Priest (he is from Judah and not
Levie). Second Christ is of the order of Melchizedek whom was the
king of Salem or what is now known of as Jerusalem (in Genesis 14:18
Melchizedek brought bread and wine out to Abraham after he won the
first world war as he entered the war to rescue lot Hebrews 7:1). The
point is that Christ being of the order of Melchizedek supersedes the
order of the Levites according to scripture.
Consider the following in Hebrews 7:1-14, "This Melchizedek was king
of Salem and priest of God Most High. He met Abraham returning from
the defeat of the kings and blessed him, and Abraham gave him a tenth
of everything. First, his name means "king of righteousness"; then
also, "king of Salem" means "king of peace." Without father or
mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life,
like the Son of God he remains a priest forever. Just think how great
he was: Even the patriarch Abraham gave him a tenth of the plunder!
Now the law requires the descendants of Levi who become priests to
collect a tenth from the people—that is, their brothers—even though
their brothers are descended from Abraham. This man, however, did not
trace his descent from Levi, yet he collected a tenth from Abraham and
blessed him who had the promises. And without doubt the lesser person
is blessed by the greater. In the one case, the tenth is collected by
men who die; but in the other case, by him who is declared to be
living. One might even say that Levi, who collects the tenth, paid
the tenth through Abraham, because when Melchizedek met Abraham, Levi
was still in the body of his ancestor. If perfection could have been
attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the
law was given to the people), why was there still need for another
priest to come—one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of
Aaron? For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also
be a change of the law. He of whom these things are said belonged to
a different tribe, and no one from that tribe has ever served at the
altar. For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, and in
regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests."
Consider Psalm 110 as it is written to address Jesus Christ, "The LORD
says to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a
footstool for your feet." The LORD will extend your mighty scepter
from Zion; you will rule in the midst of your enemies. Your troops
will be willing on your day of battle. Arrayed in holy majesty, from
the womb of the dawn you will receive the dew of your youth. The LORD
has sworn
and will not change his mind: "You are a priest forever, in the order
of Melchizedek." The Lord is at your right hand; he will crush kings
on the day of his wrath. He will judge the nations, heaping up the
dead and crushing the rulers of the whole earth. He will drink from a
brook beside the way; therefore he will lift up his head." (NIV)
Regarding the dietary regulations we read the following in Ezekiel
16:16-20, "You took some of your garments to make gaudy high places,
where you carried on your prostitution. Such things should not happen,
nor should they ever occur. You also took the fine jewelry I gave
you, the jewelry made of my gold and silver, and you made for yourself
male idols and engaged in prostitution with them. And you took your
embroidered clothes to put on them, and you offered my oil and incense
before them. Also the food I provided for you—the fine flour, olive
oil and honey I gave you to eat—you offered as fragrant incense before
them. That is what happened, declares the Sovereign LORD. " 'And you
took your sons and daughters whom you bore to me and sacrificed them
as food to the idols. Was your prostitution not enough?" (NIV) This
passage is in the greater context of Ezekiel 16 that talks about
Jerusalem being a infant that was thrown out and found by God whom he
raised himself, and latter he took that infant to be his wife when it
developed and matured. Overall, as a result of God’s hostility toward
the wicked actions of Jerusalem he turned them over to eating all the
detestable things that the law of Moses condemns.
In Ezekiel 16:51-52 we read, "Samaria did not commit half the sins you
did. You have done more detestable things than they, and have made
your sisters seem righteous by all these things you have done. Bear
your disgrace, for you have furnished some justification for your
sisters. Because your sins were more vile than theirs, they appear
more righteous than you. So then, be ashamed and bear your disgrace,
for you have made your sisters appear righteous." (NIV) What this
tells us is that Samaria (comprising those whom had been scattered to
the nations) had actually appeared more righteous than Jerusalem
(consider the parable of the good Samaritan), and as a result God
found reason to justify the gentiles over the Jews. Overall, thus if
people delight in eating pigs brains, eyes of cows, and a dog’s tongue
but yet are righteous in their living, then why would God not bless
them?
Regarding oaths and divorce does not God judge between demons? Even
Solomon himself had to judge between two prostitutes in their claim
for a child. Overall, when people took on the new nature of Christ
they no longer had demons in the house of God to judge between, and as
a result the law became more strict in some places because the new law
was for people whom had the righteousness of Christ inside of them.
Evan Hale
Nov 12, 2009, 6:00:42 PM11/12/09
to jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
I don't think you're quite getting what I'm saying. The divorce thing might be a weak example, but the point is that Moses provided a system for oath-taking, and Jesus condemned such oath-taking as "of the evil one." In the Old Testament, willfully eating pork was considered a sin against Yahweh. If the Mosaic law was still in full effect, still relevant to us in the same way it was to Jews, and not just as an historical artifact, people couldn't live righteous lives and still eat pork. Yet Jesus, and certainly Paul, seem completely unconcerned about this, and Jesus even acts as if its something the Pharisees just made up.
Are you trying to argue that the Mosaic Law is over with, that we don't have to worry about obeying it anymore? That's what most Christians seem to say, but the Jesus I read in the Gospels seems to be talking out of both sides of His mouth (pardon me, I'm not trying to offend anyone, I'm just explaining my possibly flawed observations). He talks about not invalidating the Law, but in practice, that's exactly what He did. He seems to draw the line between divine law and human law in a different location than our received Old Testament scripture seems to call for.
|
Evan "The alternative to tragedy is damnation." --C.S. Lewis |
--- On Thu, 11/12/09, Mathew Enoch Mount <mmo...@essex1.com> wrote: |
|
Mathew Enoch Mount
Nov 12, 2009, 10:48:17 PM11/12/09
to Jesus On the Web
Hello,
Let me explain the situation as simplistically as I can, "And Adam was
not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a
sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue
in faith, love and holiness with propriety." 1 Timothy 2:14-15 (NIV)
The point is that we are saved through our fruit that God gives us
just as Eve was salved through her fruit that would eventually bring
forth Christ whom would be sacrificed on the cross to atone for sins.
The fruit of Noah that delivered him to the promise land was the ark
that he built after having been given the word of the lord. The pitch
that coated the ark I believe in Hebrew I am told is the same ford for
atonement, and thus the fruit of Noah was covered in atonement and
what saved Noah is that he went inside of the ark when the rain fell
and God closed the door. This shows us a picture of being in Christ
and being atoned by his blood as his fruit is produced through us and
it is that fruit that in our old age we are surrounded by like in the
case of the ark. Overall, what produces that fruits of Christ is
having received the correct faith from God such as in the case of the
word of the lord coming to Noah and telling him to build the ark.
Another example of this is that the Mater gave talents to his servants
before he went away, but when he returned he damned the servant that
invested the one talent into the ground while he blessed the servants
whom invested the talent and thus had more than he gave them when he
returned. He basically said that if you can be trusted with a little
then you can be trusted with a lot. Consider the following, "Your
country is desolate, your cities burned with fire; your fields are
being stripped by foreigners right before you, laid waste as when
overthrown by strangers. The Daughter of Zion is left like a shelter
in a vineyard, like a hut in a field of melons, like a city under
siege. Unless the LORD Almighty had left us some survivors, we would
have become like Sodom, we would have been like Gomorrah." Isaiah
1:7-9 (NIV)
The problem is not that the law was wrong, but the problem is that the
people that had been in power in Jerusalem had been unfruitful.
Remember the parable of the vineyard when the profits came to the
vineyard to collect a share for the man whom owned the vineyard and
the tenants treated them harshly until the son of the owner came to
collect from the vineyard and the tenants believed that they would
kill him and take the inheritance for themselves. Matthew 21:33-46
(this passage is in the same chapter as Christ entry into Jerusalem
during the week of his crucifixion) Overall, we are told by the
scripture as I will explain that the vineyard had a wall around it, a
winepress, and a watchtower.
The wall around the vineyard was in place to protect the vineyard in
order to ensure that it may continue to be fruitful. This wall was
not the separation of church and state as some would like you to
believe. This wall separated the enemy from the Jew (it may have in
fact been many of the little laws that acted as this wall that
distinguished the Jews from the rest of the nations). The watchtower
is the place that God’s servants would go and watch other the vineyard
in order to ensure that it is well protected and that noting is
getting in to destroy the crops. Lastly the winepress is the place
that the fruits are gathered together and made into wine in order to
have produce to give back to the vineyard owner.
John the Baptist says the following to the Pharisees about producing
fruit when they came to him, "Produce fruit in keeping with
repentance. And do not think you can say to yourselves, 'We have
Abraham as our father.' I tell you that out of these stones God can
raise up children for Abraham." Matthew 3:8-9 (NIV) The point is that
in the baptism of John the Baptist his main concern with the Pharisees
is that they had been unfruitful (if they would have gone under the
waters then they would have died like those in the time of Noah
because they did not have an ark to save them).
Jesus Christ gives the following condemnation to the Pharisees, "You
blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel." Matthew
23:24 (NIV) The point is that they used the letter of the law to
strain out a gnat while they missed something as huge as a camel. The
point is that they had been unfruitful with the law in this way.
Consider the following scripture, "Moses said to the heads of the
tribes of Israel: "This is what the LORD commands: When a man makes a
vow to the LORD or takes an oath to obligate himself by a pledge, he
must not break his word but must do everything he said. "When a young
woman still living in her father's house makes a vow to the LORD or
obligates herself by a pledge and her father hears about her vow or
pledge but says nothing to her, then all her vows and every pledge by
which she obligated herself will stand. But if her father forbids her
when he hears about it, none of her vows or the pledges by which she
obligated herself will stand; the LORD will release her because her
father has forbidden her." Numbers 30:1-5 (NIV) The point to be made
is that when Jerusalem made a covenant with death their father could
and did speak out against their oath for the following speaks about
Christ the cornerstone coming to break that covenant of death,
"Therefore hear the word of the LORD, you scoffers who rule this
people in Jerusalem. You boast, "We have entered into a covenant with
death, with the grave we have made an agreement. When an overwhelming
scourge sweeps by, it cannot touch us, for we have made a lie our
refuge and falsehood our hiding place." So this is what the Sovereign
LORD says: "See, I lay a stone in Zion, a tested stone, a precious
cornerstone for a sure foundation; the one who trusts will never be
dismayed." Isaiah 28:14-16 (NIV) Thus for those whom have been freed
from the covenant with death like Saint Paul we should not seek to
enter it again.
Matthew 5:31-42 gives the teachings of Jesus Christ concerning
Divorce, Oaths, and an Eye for an Eye. The point regarding divorce is
that Jesus both agrees with Moses and makes the law even stronger than
what was given to Moses because Jesus takes the three points of Moses
and upholds only the most important one "adultery." Note Leviticus
21:6-8 speaks against a priest marrying a woman whom as been divorced,
and since we are to be a kingdom of priests thus this law concerns
us. Jesus thus writes his commentary on the law by saying that anyone
whom has been divorced for any reason except for marital
unfaithfulness becomes an adulterer and whomever marries that person
commits adultery. Overall, this is because in the past people could
not go before the throne of God to be married because only the High
Priest could go before the throne once a year, but now they can and do
go before the throne of God to be married because Christ has gone
before the throne of God on our behalf with his blood and thus we
intercede in sacraments such as marriage through his blood.
Regarding oaths people in the past made contracts between each other
in order to be sure that if a person was not honest that their would
be legal recourse, and this is what the matter of oaths really drives
at. Making an oath before God involves the contract of parties as God
as a witness. Overall, we are not to make oaths not because the law
was wrong but because by making our yes a Yes and our no a No we need
not make oaths anymore. In fact making oaths now while being before
God’s throne only points to the fact that we are unfaithful servants
or that people disbelieve our salvation or the power of God to work
through us, and both are thus evil.
Regarding an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth the law was
correct to command an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth in
settling legal disputes in quart as is the case today. We are not to
pervert justice. The point that Jesus Christ makes is that we should
not seek retribution for ourselves, but instead we should turn the
other cheek.
Clearly the law is correct, but just because we have it does not mean
that we are required to use it in all circumstances while following
the letter of the law carefully for our own gains. Remember the woman
whom was found in the act of adultery that was brought before Christ.
Many thought that this was going to break his teaching and reveal that
he was in fact against the law, but instead Christ showed that he had
the greatest honor for the law because it was the law that taught that
both parties in adultery are the ones to be stoned. As a result Jesus
said, "he whom is without sin shall cast the first stone", and thus no
one cast any stones because they found that every had all been with
sin. Thus the law taught that everyone was held accountable to God
because of their sins.
Because everyone was held accountable to God because of their sins
like in the case of the woman whom was caught in the act of adultery
thus the king had a debtor whom had much debt and the debtor begged to
have time to repay the debt, so the king forgave the debt that was
owed. Soon enough however that man found one of his debtors grabbed
him and told him to repay him the debt owed to him and the debtor
plead with him but the man threw him in prison. Thus when the king
hear about it he said, "I forgave you your debts, but you will not
forgive those whom are your debtors of their debts", and at this the
king throws the debtor into prison (revoking his earlier decree).
Every application of the law that demonstrates love for God through a
persons heart, soul, strength, and mind as well as brings about loving
your brother as yourself is a correct application of law. Every
application of law however that does not bring about this kind of
fruitfulness is evil. Overall, the law is thus like an ax that can be
used for either good or evil.
Let me explain the situation as simplistically as I can, "And Adam was
not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a
sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue
in faith, love and holiness with propriety." 1 Timothy 2:14-15 (NIV)
The point is that we are saved through our fruit that God gives us
just as Eve was salved through her fruit that would eventually bring
forth Christ whom would be sacrificed on the cross to atone for sins.
The fruit of Noah that delivered him to the promise land was the ark
that he built after having been given the word of the lord. The pitch
that coated the ark I believe in Hebrew I am told is the same ford for
atonement, and thus the fruit of Noah was covered in atonement and
what saved Noah is that he went inside of the ark when the rain fell
and God closed the door. This shows us a picture of being in Christ
and being atoned by his blood as his fruit is produced through us and
it is that fruit that in our old age we are surrounded by like in the
case of the ark. Overall, what produces that fruits of Christ is
having received the correct faith from God such as in the case of the
word of the lord coming to Noah and telling him to build the ark.
Another example of this is that the Mater gave talents to his servants
before he went away, but when he returned he damned the servant that
invested the one talent into the ground while he blessed the servants
whom invested the talent and thus had more than he gave them when he
returned. He basically said that if you can be trusted with a little
then you can be trusted with a lot. Consider the following, "Your
country is desolate, your cities burned with fire; your fields are
being stripped by foreigners right before you, laid waste as when
overthrown by strangers. The Daughter of Zion is left like a shelter
in a vineyard, like a hut in a field of melons, like a city under
siege. Unless the LORD Almighty had left us some survivors, we would
have become like Sodom, we would have been like Gomorrah." Isaiah
1:7-9 (NIV)
The problem is not that the law was wrong, but the problem is that the
people that had been in power in Jerusalem had been unfruitful.
Remember the parable of the vineyard when the profits came to the
vineyard to collect a share for the man whom owned the vineyard and
the tenants treated them harshly until the son of the owner came to
collect from the vineyard and the tenants believed that they would
kill him and take the inheritance for themselves. Matthew 21:33-46
(this passage is in the same chapter as Christ entry into Jerusalem
during the week of his crucifixion) Overall, we are told by the
scripture as I will explain that the vineyard had a wall around it, a
winepress, and a watchtower.
The wall around the vineyard was in place to protect the vineyard in
order to ensure that it may continue to be fruitful. This wall was
not the separation of church and state as some would like you to
believe. This wall separated the enemy from the Jew (it may have in
fact been many of the little laws that acted as this wall that
distinguished the Jews from the rest of the nations). The watchtower
is the place that God’s servants would go and watch other the vineyard
in order to ensure that it is well protected and that noting is
getting in to destroy the crops. Lastly the winepress is the place
that the fruits are gathered together and made into wine in order to
have produce to give back to the vineyard owner.
John the Baptist says the following to the Pharisees about producing
fruit when they came to him, "Produce fruit in keeping with
repentance. And do not think you can say to yourselves, 'We have
Abraham as our father.' I tell you that out of these stones God can
raise up children for Abraham." Matthew 3:8-9 (NIV) The point is that
in the baptism of John the Baptist his main concern with the Pharisees
is that they had been unfruitful (if they would have gone under the
waters then they would have died like those in the time of Noah
because they did not have an ark to save them).
Jesus Christ gives the following condemnation to the Pharisees, "You
blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel." Matthew
23:24 (NIV) The point is that they used the letter of the law to
strain out a gnat while they missed something as huge as a camel. The
point is that they had been unfruitful with the law in this way.
Consider the following scripture, "Moses said to the heads of the
tribes of Israel: "This is what the LORD commands: When a man makes a
vow to the LORD or takes an oath to obligate himself by a pledge, he
must not break his word but must do everything he said. "When a young
woman still living in her father's house makes a vow to the LORD or
obligates herself by a pledge and her father hears about her vow or
pledge but says nothing to her, then all her vows and every pledge by
which she obligated herself will stand. But if her father forbids her
when he hears about it, none of her vows or the pledges by which she
obligated herself will stand; the LORD will release her because her
father has forbidden her." Numbers 30:1-5 (NIV) The point to be made
is that when Jerusalem made a covenant with death their father could
and did speak out against their oath for the following speaks about
Christ the cornerstone coming to break that covenant of death,
"Therefore hear the word of the LORD, you scoffers who rule this
people in Jerusalem. You boast, "We have entered into a covenant with
death, with the grave we have made an agreement. When an overwhelming
scourge sweeps by, it cannot touch us, for we have made a lie our
refuge and falsehood our hiding place." So this is what the Sovereign
LORD says: "See, I lay a stone in Zion, a tested stone, a precious
cornerstone for a sure foundation; the one who trusts will never be
dismayed." Isaiah 28:14-16 (NIV) Thus for those whom have been freed
from the covenant with death like Saint Paul we should not seek to
enter it again.
Matthew 5:31-42 gives the teachings of Jesus Christ concerning
Divorce, Oaths, and an Eye for an Eye. The point regarding divorce is
that Jesus both agrees with Moses and makes the law even stronger than
what was given to Moses because Jesus takes the three points of Moses
and upholds only the most important one "adultery." Note Leviticus
21:6-8 speaks against a priest marrying a woman whom as been divorced,
and since we are to be a kingdom of priests thus this law concerns
us. Jesus thus writes his commentary on the law by saying that anyone
whom has been divorced for any reason except for marital
unfaithfulness becomes an adulterer and whomever marries that person
commits adultery. Overall, this is because in the past people could
not go before the throne of God to be married because only the High
Priest could go before the throne once a year, but now they can and do
go before the throne of God to be married because Christ has gone
before the throne of God on our behalf with his blood and thus we
intercede in sacraments such as marriage through his blood.
Regarding oaths people in the past made contracts between each other
in order to be sure that if a person was not honest that their would
be legal recourse, and this is what the matter of oaths really drives
at. Making an oath before God involves the contract of parties as God
as a witness. Overall, we are not to make oaths not because the law
was wrong but because by making our yes a Yes and our no a No we need
not make oaths anymore. In fact making oaths now while being before
God’s throne only points to the fact that we are unfaithful servants
or that people disbelieve our salvation or the power of God to work
through us, and both are thus evil.
Regarding an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth the law was
correct to command an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth in
settling legal disputes in quart as is the case today. We are not to
pervert justice. The point that Jesus Christ makes is that we should
not seek retribution for ourselves, but instead we should turn the
other cheek.
Clearly the law is correct, but just because we have it does not mean
that we are required to use it in all circumstances while following
the letter of the law carefully for our own gains. Remember the woman
whom was found in the act of adultery that was brought before Christ.
Many thought that this was going to break his teaching and reveal that
he was in fact against the law, but instead Christ showed that he had
the greatest honor for the law because it was the law that taught that
both parties in adultery are the ones to be stoned. As a result Jesus
said, "he whom is without sin shall cast the first stone", and thus no
one cast any stones because they found that every had all been with
sin. Thus the law taught that everyone was held accountable to God
because of their sins.
Because everyone was held accountable to God because of their sins
like in the case of the woman whom was caught in the act of adultery
thus the king had a debtor whom had much debt and the debtor begged to
have time to repay the debt, so the king forgave the debt that was
owed. Soon enough however that man found one of his debtors grabbed
him and told him to repay him the debt owed to him and the debtor
plead with him but the man threw him in prison. Thus when the king
hear about it he said, "I forgave you your debts, but you will not
forgive those whom are your debtors of their debts", and at this the
king throws the debtor into prison (revoking his earlier decree).
Every application of the law that demonstrates love for God through a
persons heart, soul, strength, and mind as well as brings about loving
your brother as yourself is a correct application of law. Every
application of law however that does not bring about this kind of
fruitfulness is evil. Overall, the law is thus like an ax that can be
used for either good or evil.
Evan Hale
Nov 13, 2009, 12:54:31 PM11/13/09
to jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
That's a very interesting exegesis. I like it. So you're saying that the law is like a tool essentially, to be used in some circumstances to meet good ends, and abstained from in other circumstances when good results aren't likely to follow? I definitely like the utilitarian edge this has, but I must say, I have trouble believing this was ever the intent of Moses (not that I'm particularly concerned about that). And if you're right about this, does the same logic apply to the Gospels, the Epistles, and the rest of the Bible? If the Torah can be relativized (which is not to say annihilated or invalidated), is the rest of the Bible subject to a situational analysis?
Thanks,
|
Evan "The alternative to tragedy is damnation." --C.S. Lewis |
--- On Thu, 11/12/09, Mathew Enoch Mount <mmo...@essex1.com> wrote: |
|
Mathew Enoch Mount
Nov 13, 2009, 5:50:30 PM11/13/09
to Jesus On the Web
Hello,
In a way it is not that the law is something that we can apply when we
want to or not apply when we do not want to, but rather the situation
is that since it has been superseded by a different priesthood thus
the law no longer holds its power to condemn the ones in Christ
because of what Jesus did. An example of this is the woman whom was
found in the act of adultery but yet was not stoned. The Pharisees
implemented the law whenever they wanted to have a one up on someone
and they did everything that they could to make themselves look like
they had been the most legal people ever, but Christ spoke against
them and he sort of made the case that if you had to go outside of the
law or if you went outside of the law then it should be for the
purpose of producing fruit for God. An example of this is the example
that Jesus gave of taking the donkey out of the pit on the Sabbath.
Overall, the point that Jesus made is that their was something greater
than the law and that something was the will of God (the spirit of the
law).
Consider the following, "Brothers, if I am still preaching
circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the
offense of the cross has been abolished. As for those agitators, I
wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves! You, my
brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to
indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love."
Galatians 5:11-13 (NIV) The point that Saint Paul drives home is that
he would wish that those whom preach circumcision would go the entire
way and cut their private parts off. The point to be made with this
is that Saint Paul is identifying circumcision as being no longer
fruitful, and he is upholding the testimony that fruitfulness is what
God desires. Having said that Saint Paul would not be fruitful in his
work if he mandated that gentiles eat only legal foods, if he required
circumcision, and if he made the law something that everyone had to
study in the letter of the law under careful examination.
Think about the situation that some of the people whom would believe
in the message of Saint Paul had been physical slaves whom may not
have had a choice about what they eat, and not only that but also the
markets may not have had legal foods as easily available in gentile
lands. Not only that but if gentiles sat with Jews and listened to
the message of the gospel while the Jews ate noting from the table of
the gentile, then the gentile would close themselves to the message of
the gospel before they would even be able to listen to it. Overall,
Saint Paul especially did not have the power to enforce the law
because in killing Christians he was like the woman whom was found in
the act of adultery that was saved by God’s grace and by the letter of
the law being superseded by the spirit of the law, and thus if Saint
Paul sacrificed fruitfulness for legal adherence he would have been a
hypocrite.
In a way it is not that the law is something that we can apply when we
want to or not apply when we do not want to, but rather the situation
is that since it has been superseded by a different priesthood thus
the law no longer holds its power to condemn the ones in Christ
because of what Jesus did. An example of this is the woman whom was
found in the act of adultery but yet was not stoned. The Pharisees
implemented the law whenever they wanted to have a one up on someone
and they did everything that they could to make themselves look like
they had been the most legal people ever, but Christ spoke against
them and he sort of made the case that if you had to go outside of the
law or if you went outside of the law then it should be for the
purpose of producing fruit for God. An example of this is the example
that Jesus gave of taking the donkey out of the pit on the Sabbath.
Overall, the point that Jesus made is that their was something greater
than the law and that something was the will of God (the spirit of the
law).
Consider the following, "Brothers, if I am still preaching
circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the
offense of the cross has been abolished. As for those agitators, I
wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves! You, my
brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to
indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love."
Galatians 5:11-13 (NIV) The point that Saint Paul drives home is that
he would wish that those whom preach circumcision would go the entire
way and cut their private parts off. The point to be made with this
is that Saint Paul is identifying circumcision as being no longer
fruitful, and he is upholding the testimony that fruitfulness is what
God desires. Having said that Saint Paul would not be fruitful in his
work if he mandated that gentiles eat only legal foods, if he required
circumcision, and if he made the law something that everyone had to
study in the letter of the law under careful examination.
Think about the situation that some of the people whom would believe
in the message of Saint Paul had been physical slaves whom may not
have had a choice about what they eat, and not only that but also the
markets may not have had legal foods as easily available in gentile
lands. Not only that but if gentiles sat with Jews and listened to
the message of the gospel while the Jews ate noting from the table of
the gentile, then the gentile would close themselves to the message of
the gospel before they would even be able to listen to it. Overall,
Saint Paul especially did not have the power to enforce the law
because in killing Christians he was like the woman whom was found in
the act of adultery that was saved by God’s grace and by the letter of
the law being superseded by the spirit of the law, and thus if Saint
Paul sacrificed fruitfulness for legal adherence he would have been a
hypocrite.
Evan Hale
Nov 14, 2009, 5:51:25 PM11/14/09
to jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
I'm not sure if you're disagreeing with me or not. If the will of God is more important than the Law, then the Law is not the unqualified will of God, and can sometimes be ignored. However, even St. Paul didn't ignore it completely. The Mosaic condemnation of murder and adultery still stand. My question is, does the Bible, or any other source provide us with information about the unqualified will of God, or is all Scripture to be considered and applied in accordance with individual conscience as arbiter?
|
Evan "The alternative to tragedy is damnation." --C.S. Lewis |
--- On Fri, 11/13/09, Mathew Enoch Mount <mmo...@essex1.com> wrote: |
|
Mathew Enoch Mount
Nov 15, 2009, 2:07:26 AM11/15/09
to Jesus On the Web
Hello,
Consider the following scripture, "Is the law, therefore, opposed to
the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that
could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the
law. But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of
sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus
Christ, might be given to those who believe. Before this faith came,
we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be
revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we
might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no
longer under the supervision of the law." Galatians 3:21-25 (NIV)
The point that Saint Paul is making is that the most important element
of the law is that it testifies to Jesus Christ and that it is the
transport that brought people to Christ (just like Egypt made the
twelve into six hundred thousand).
Just as we are no longer under the supervision of the law it has also
been said that the written code has been canceled in its power against
us. "When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of
your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all
our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that
was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing
it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he
made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross."
Colossians 2:13-15 (NIV) Overall, the point is that the law testified
to Jesus Christ, it was put in force prior to the revelation of faith,
but now the law no longer has an administrator over it to carry it out
because God disarmed their powers making a public spectacle of them.
The scripture makes the case clear that everything is permissible, but
not everything is profitable. We should flee from those things that
are not profitable for building the kingdom of God, and we should
embrace those things that are profitable for the following is said.
"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God?
Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor
adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves
nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit
the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were
washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the
Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. "Everything is
permissible for me"—but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is
permissible for me"—but I will not be mastered by anything. "Food for
the stomach and the stomach for food"—but God will destroy them both.
The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the
Lord for the body. By his power God raised the Lord from the dead,
and he will raise us also. Do you not know that your bodies are
members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ
and unite them with a prostitute? Never! Do you not know that he who
unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is
said, "The two will become one flesh." But he who unites himself with
the Lord is one with him in spirit." 1 Corinthians 6:9-17 (NIV)
Overall, the point to be made is that Saint Paul is not promoting a
financial profitability like some people in ministry believe, but
rather Saint Paul is talking about the fruits of the spirit.
The point that scripture makes is that the Holy Ghost is the seal,
deposit, or talents that the master gave to his servants when he went
away in order that this be invested wisely in order to produce more
than what was originally given. The following is thus said, "Remind
the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to
be ready to do whatever is good, to slander no one, to be peaceable
and considerate, and to show true humility toward all men. At one
time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all
kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being
hated and hating one another. But when the kindness and love of God
our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we
had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing
of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us
generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been
justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of
eternal life. This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress
these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to
devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent
and profitable for everyone. But avoid foolish controversies and
genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these
are unprofitable and useless. Warn a divisive person once, and then
warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. You
may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-
condemned." Titus 3:1-11 (NIV) Overall, we see that foolish
controversies, genealogies, arguments, and quarrels about the law are
unprofitable and useless, and as we can see these things show a strong
contrast to those things that are profitable.
The point in all of this is that the law has been made unprofitable,
but than again doing the things that the law guards against for the
most part is also unprofitable. Much of the profits, Christ, and even
the epistles talk about Jerusalem not being profitable and also the
desire of God to gather a crop, and this is even portrayed when Christ
cursed the fig tree because it did not bare any fruit prior to him
entering Jerusalem and being crucified. Overall, just because the law
is now made unprofitable does not mean that it will be eternally
unprofitable, and I say this because after all the law does testify to
Jesus Christ.
Let us consider the prayer of Saint Paul in Romans 9:30-10:4, "What
then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue
righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but
Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why
not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by
works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." As it is written:
"See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that
makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to
shame." Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the
Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them
that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on
knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from
God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's
righteousness. Christ is the end of the law so that there may be
righteousness for everyone who believes." Overall, if we look at the
profits and consider them in context of what Saint Paul is saying,
then we may come to the conclusion that one day the prayer of Saint
Paul might be answered that the Jews may no longer seek to establish
their own righteousness but instead they may have the faith of God
shown to them by Christ such that Christ Jesus becomes their
righteousness.
The Jerusalem Jews whom believed in Christ had been zealous for the
law, and the only reason why the leaders among the Jerusalem believers
accepted the work of Saint Paul with thanksgiving is because they
realized that it was profitable to God because many gentiles had
believed through what Saint Paul was doing. The following
conversation is thus recorded regarding what Saint Paul and the
Jerusalem leaders among the believers had said to one another about
how they accepted each other’s message, "When we arrived at Jerusalem,
the brothers received us warmly. The next day Paul and the rest of us
went to see James, and all the elders were present. Paul greeted them
and reported in detail what God had done among the Gentiles through
his ministry. When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said
to Paul: "You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed,
and all of them are zealous for the law. They have been informed that
you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from
Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according
to our customs. What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you
have come, so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who
have made a vow. Take these men, join in their purification rites and
pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then
everybody will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but
that you yourself are living in obedience to the law. As for the
Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they
should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the
meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality." Acts 21:17-25
(NIV) Overall, the point is that the Jews whom believed in Jesus
Christ whom had been zealous for the law had been fruitful as many
thousands believed, and so Saint Paul agreed to honor the leaders of
the Jerusalem church because of their fruitfulness by being part in a
ritual of the law, and thus Saint Paul would demonstrate that he was
not at all opposed to the law but instead lived in obedience to the
law.
If we read carefully in the scripture what we find in Acts 10 during
Pentecost is that the Holy Ghost was pored out onto both Jews and
Gentiles and that this happened just after Peter had eaten with a
gentile "this was forbidden under the law". The circumcised people
could not believe what was happening, and as a result a mass baptism
followed. Acts 11 shows the response of the circumcised believers
whom heard of what happened in Pentecost, and it also gives testimony
that after the Jews had been scattered in Jerusalem as a result of the
persecution of the church associated with the stoning of Stephen the
Jerusalem believers went as far as Phoenicia, Cyprus and Antioch going
only to Jews to proclaim the message of the gospel (their had been
some people that also spoke to the Greeks as well). Overall, what we
thus learn is that when this was investigated by Barnabas being sent
from Jerusalem to Antioch he found the evidence of God’s grace and he
encouraged the people, and was glad.
Romans chapters 2 and 3 talk about how both the Jews and the gentiles
are saved as the message is that the Jews whom are under the law if
they brag about their relationship with God but yet disobey the law
then the gentiles can actually stand and condemn them. While the
gentiles if they have a circumcision of the heart and yet obey the
law, then their praise is from God and not from man. Yet according to
the scripture the Jews have been entrusted with the very words of God
as Saint Paul proclaims, but if they are without faith then what good
is it for them? Lastly Saint Paul teaches a righteousness apart from
the law, and that is faith in Jesus Christ because no one is
righteousness by their own righteousness.
Romans chapter 4 shows how Abraham is the father through faith of both
the circumcised and the uncircumcised. Not only that but also we
learn that according to scripture a man should not reject the place in
life that he has been called to, "Nevertheless, each one should retain
the place in life that the Lord assigned to him and to which God has
called him. This is the rule I lay down in all the churches. Was a
man already circumcised when he was called? He should not become
uncircumcised. Was a man uncircumcised when he was called? He should
not be circumcised. Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is
nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts." 1 Corinthians 7:17-19
(NIV) Overall, the concluding remarks is that we should continue in
the place in life that we have being called from as being either
circumcised or uncircumcised, and we should continue in that place
while we produce much fruit and guard our productivity for we know
according to the scripture that a woman is saved through the act of
childbearing and the believers of Jesus Christ are the wife of the
lamb.
Consider the following scripture, "Is the law, therefore, opposed to
the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that
could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the
law. But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of
sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus
Christ, might be given to those who believe. Before this faith came,
we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be
revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we
might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no
longer under the supervision of the law." Galatians 3:21-25 (NIV)
The point that Saint Paul is making is that the most important element
of the law is that it testifies to Jesus Christ and that it is the
transport that brought people to Christ (just like Egypt made the
twelve into six hundred thousand).
Just as we are no longer under the supervision of the law it has also
been said that the written code has been canceled in its power against
us. "When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of
your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all
our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that
was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing
it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he
made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross."
Colossians 2:13-15 (NIV) Overall, the point is that the law testified
to Jesus Christ, it was put in force prior to the revelation of faith,
but now the law no longer has an administrator over it to carry it out
because God disarmed their powers making a public spectacle of them.
The scripture makes the case clear that everything is permissible, but
not everything is profitable. We should flee from those things that
are not profitable for building the kingdom of God, and we should
embrace those things that are profitable for the following is said.
"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God?
Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor
adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves
nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit
the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were
washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the
Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. "Everything is
permissible for me"—but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is
permissible for me"—but I will not be mastered by anything. "Food for
the stomach and the stomach for food"—but God will destroy them both.
The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the
Lord for the body. By his power God raised the Lord from the dead,
and he will raise us also. Do you not know that your bodies are
members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ
and unite them with a prostitute? Never! Do you not know that he who
unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is
said, "The two will become one flesh." But he who unites himself with
the Lord is one with him in spirit." 1 Corinthians 6:9-17 (NIV)
Overall, the point to be made is that Saint Paul is not promoting a
financial profitability like some people in ministry believe, but
rather Saint Paul is talking about the fruits of the spirit.
The point that scripture makes is that the Holy Ghost is the seal,
deposit, or talents that the master gave to his servants when he went
away in order that this be invested wisely in order to produce more
than what was originally given. The following is thus said, "Remind
the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to
be ready to do whatever is good, to slander no one, to be peaceable
and considerate, and to show true humility toward all men. At one
time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all
kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being
hated and hating one another. But when the kindness and love of God
our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we
had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing
of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us
generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been
justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of
eternal life. This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress
these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to
devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent
and profitable for everyone. But avoid foolish controversies and
genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these
are unprofitable and useless. Warn a divisive person once, and then
warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. You
may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-
condemned." Titus 3:1-11 (NIV) Overall, we see that foolish
controversies, genealogies, arguments, and quarrels about the law are
unprofitable and useless, and as we can see these things show a strong
contrast to those things that are profitable.
The point in all of this is that the law has been made unprofitable,
but than again doing the things that the law guards against for the
most part is also unprofitable. Much of the profits, Christ, and even
the epistles talk about Jerusalem not being profitable and also the
desire of God to gather a crop, and this is even portrayed when Christ
cursed the fig tree because it did not bare any fruit prior to him
entering Jerusalem and being crucified. Overall, just because the law
is now made unprofitable does not mean that it will be eternally
unprofitable, and I say this because after all the law does testify to
Jesus Christ.
Let us consider the prayer of Saint Paul in Romans 9:30-10:4, "What
then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue
righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but
Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why
not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by
works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." As it is written:
"See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that
makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to
shame." Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the
Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them
that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on
knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from
God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's
righteousness. Christ is the end of the law so that there may be
righteousness for everyone who believes." Overall, if we look at the
profits and consider them in context of what Saint Paul is saying,
then we may come to the conclusion that one day the prayer of Saint
Paul might be answered that the Jews may no longer seek to establish
their own righteousness but instead they may have the faith of God
shown to them by Christ such that Christ Jesus becomes their
righteousness.
The Jerusalem Jews whom believed in Christ had been zealous for the
law, and the only reason why the leaders among the Jerusalem believers
accepted the work of Saint Paul with thanksgiving is because they
realized that it was profitable to God because many gentiles had
believed through what Saint Paul was doing. The following
conversation is thus recorded regarding what Saint Paul and the
Jerusalem leaders among the believers had said to one another about
how they accepted each other’s message, "When we arrived at Jerusalem,
the brothers received us warmly. The next day Paul and the rest of us
went to see James, and all the elders were present. Paul greeted them
and reported in detail what God had done among the Gentiles through
his ministry. When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said
to Paul: "You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed,
and all of them are zealous for the law. They have been informed that
you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from
Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according
to our customs. What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you
have come, so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who
have made a vow. Take these men, join in their purification rites and
pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then
everybody will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but
that you yourself are living in obedience to the law. As for the
Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they
should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the
meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality." Acts 21:17-25
(NIV) Overall, the point is that the Jews whom believed in Jesus
Christ whom had been zealous for the law had been fruitful as many
thousands believed, and so Saint Paul agreed to honor the leaders of
the Jerusalem church because of their fruitfulness by being part in a
ritual of the law, and thus Saint Paul would demonstrate that he was
not at all opposed to the law but instead lived in obedience to the
law.
If we read carefully in the scripture what we find in Acts 10 during
Pentecost is that the Holy Ghost was pored out onto both Jews and
Gentiles and that this happened just after Peter had eaten with a
gentile "this was forbidden under the law". The circumcised people
could not believe what was happening, and as a result a mass baptism
followed. Acts 11 shows the response of the circumcised believers
whom heard of what happened in Pentecost, and it also gives testimony
that after the Jews had been scattered in Jerusalem as a result of the
persecution of the church associated with the stoning of Stephen the
Jerusalem believers went as far as Phoenicia, Cyprus and Antioch going
only to Jews to proclaim the message of the gospel (their had been
some people that also spoke to the Greeks as well). Overall, what we
thus learn is that when this was investigated by Barnabas being sent
from Jerusalem to Antioch he found the evidence of God’s grace and he
encouraged the people, and was glad.
Romans chapters 2 and 3 talk about how both the Jews and the gentiles
are saved as the message is that the Jews whom are under the law if
they brag about their relationship with God but yet disobey the law
then the gentiles can actually stand and condemn them. While the
gentiles if they have a circumcision of the heart and yet obey the
law, then their praise is from God and not from man. Yet according to
the scripture the Jews have been entrusted with the very words of God
as Saint Paul proclaims, but if they are without faith then what good
is it for them? Lastly Saint Paul teaches a righteousness apart from
the law, and that is faith in Jesus Christ because no one is
righteousness by their own righteousness.
Romans chapter 4 shows how Abraham is the father through faith of both
the circumcised and the uncircumcised. Not only that but also we
learn that according to scripture a man should not reject the place in
life that he has been called to, "Nevertheless, each one should retain
the place in life that the Lord assigned to him and to which God has
called him. This is the rule I lay down in all the churches. Was a
man already circumcised when he was called? He should not become
uncircumcised. Was a man uncircumcised when he was called? He should
not be circumcised. Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is
nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts." 1 Corinthians 7:17-19
(NIV) Overall, the concluding remarks is that we should continue in
the place in life that we have being called from as being either
circumcised or uncircumcised, and we should continue in that place
while we produce much fruit and guard our productivity for we know
according to the scripture that a woman is saved through the act of
childbearing and the believers of Jesus Christ are the wife of the
lamb.
Evan Hale
Nov 18, 2009, 1:44:55 PM11/18/09
to jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
I think I'm liking this. So, anything that leads to a greater respect and admiration and love for Jesus Christ and His Father amongst people is good, while anything that detracts from the love of God is bad?
|
Evan "The alternative to tragedy is damnation." --C.S. Lewis |
--- On Sun, 11/15/09, Mathew Enoch Mount <mmo...@essex1.com> wrote: |
|
|
ON EARTH Ministries
Nov 18, 2009, 2:00:28 PM11/18/09
to jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
I believe this to be an essentially true statement. Jesus himself was very "contextual" in his ministry. Over and over again, I see this theme. Our Father's love trumps all law, reason, or rule.
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--
Peace, and All Good Things,
Brother Larry Roy Woodsmall
ON EARTH MINISTRIES
mmo...@essex1.com
Nov 18, 2009, 6:14:57 PM11/18/09
to jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
Hello,
Yes, the summery of the law according to Christ is to love God will all of
one’s heart, mind, soul, and strength. Yet the New testament proclaims a
righteousness apart from the law, and that is Christ whom for the believer is
our righteousness. Overall, this righteousness comes by faith and this faith
is given by God whom Jesus Christ is the perfecter and author of.
------- Original Message -------
From : Evan Hale[mailto:logo...@yahoo.com]
Sent : 11/18/2009 12:44:55 PM
To : jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
Cc :
Subject : RE: Re: Pharisees- Who are they?
christ+un...@googlegroups.com
christ?hl=en.
Yes, the summery of the law according to Christ is to love God will all of
one’s heart, mind, soul, and strength. Yet the New testament proclaims a
righteousness apart from the law, and that is Christ whom for the believer is
our righteousness. Overall, this righteousness comes by faith and this faith
is given by God whom Jesus Christ is the perfecter and author of.
------- Original Message -------
From : Evan Hale[mailto:logo...@yahoo.com]
Sent : 11/18/2009 12:44:55 PM
To : jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
Cc :
Subject : RE: Re: Pharisees- Who are they?
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/jesus-the-
christ?hl=en
-~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Jesus On the Web" group.
To post to this group, send email to jesus-th...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to jesus-the-
christ+un...@googlegroups.com.
christ?hl=en
-~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
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You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Jesus On the Web" group.
To post to this group, send email to jesus-th...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to jesus-the-
christ?hl=en.
Adam Colbert
Nov 18, 2009, 7:33:34 PM11/18/09
to Jesus On the Web
"Yes, the summery of the law according to Christ is to love God will
all of
one’s heart, mind, soul, and strength. Yet the New testament
proclaims a
righteousness apart from the law, and that is Christ whom for the
believer is
our righteousness."
i find something intriguing about these two sentences, especially
all of
one’s heart, mind, soul, and strength. Yet the New testament
proclaims a
righteousness apart from the law, and that is Christ whom for the
believer is
our righteousness."
juxtaposed as you have put them.
as you say, the summary of the law, according to Christ, is to love
our God entirely with heart, mind, soul, and strength. then - right
after that - you say that the New Testament proclaims righteousness
apart from the law, which is also true.
taking both statements together, it would seem to imply the following:
"the New Testament proclaims a righteousness apart from [loving God
with all of one's heart, mind, soul, and strength]." as you can see,
the bracketed part is where i simply replaced "law" with the actual
summation of the law.
"...and that is Christ whom for the believer is our righteousness."
i think it's very important, and appropriate, that you "tacked on"
this last part of the sentence to your original paragraph. for if the
summary of the law is to love God with all of our heart, mind, soul,
and strength, and yet the New Testament proclaims "a righteousness
apart from [loving God with all of our heart, mind, soul, and
strength]," then where does that leave us? as you put, it leaves us
with "Christ for whom the believer is our righteousness."
of course, this does not say that Christ is something separate from
loving God with all of our heart, mind, soul, and strength, but rather
it is to be understood that Christ transcends this aspect of the law
while yet entirely embracing it.
Mat, i don't wanna sound like i'm patronizing you, but you really
should just type short little paragraphs if at all you're able.
perhaps you don't entirely plan for it, but when you DO do that, the
nuggets of wisdom are all the larger, not to mention shinier, easier
to see, and easier to grasp.
and thanks.
adam
On Nov 18, 5:14 pm, "mmo...@essex1.com" <mmo...@essex1.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Yes, the summery of the law according to Christ is to love God will all of
> one’s heart, mind, soul, and strength. Yet the New testament proclaims a
> righteousness apart from the law, and that is Christ whom for the believer is
> our righteousness. Overall, this righteousness comes by faith and this faith
> is given by God whom Jesus Christ is the perfecter and author of.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Mathew Enoch Mount
> mmo...@essex1.com
>
> ------- Original Message -------
>
>
> read more »
mmo...@essex1.com
Nov 18, 2009, 10:50:31 PM11/18/09
to jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
Hello,
I do very much agree with you Adam, but unfortunately sometimes I have to
build such a large context for what I am talking about that the message often
becomes very large and difficult. When I do write a paragraph, I know that
their is sufficient context for the message to be fully understood. Overall,
I fear that the reason why most theology often does not match scripture is
because it has been sort of removed without any context and made (note that
the word of God is not made because the word of God in the first Chapter of
John is Christ Jesus whom is not made or created but instead eternally
coexists with the father).
From : Adam Colbert[mailto:adamc...@hotmail.com]
Sent : 11/18/2009 6:33:34 PM
I do very much agree with you Adam, but unfortunately sometimes I have to
build such a large context for what I am talking about that the message often
becomes very large and difficult. When I do write a paragraph, I know that
their is sufficient context for the message to be fully understood. Overall,
I fear that the reason why most theology often does not match scripture is
because it has been sort of removed without any context and made (note that
the word of God is not made because the word of God in the first Chapter of
John is Christ Jesus whom is not made or created but instead eternally
coexists with the father).
From : Adam Colbert[mailto:adamc...@hotmail.com]
Sent : 11/18/2009 6:33:34 PM
Evan Hale
Nov 19, 2009, 1:32:56 PM11/19/09
to jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
So is the whole thing like a tradeoff? Jesus lives the law so we don't have to?
|
Evan "The alternative to tragedy is damnation." --C.S. Lewis |
--- On Wed, 11/18/09, Adam Colbert <adamc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
|
|
|
Evan Hale
Nov 19, 2009, 2:19:29 PM11/19/09
to jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
Are you arguing that Scripture and Jesus are the Word of God in the same sense? That the Bible is therefore God?
|
Evan "The alternative to tragedy is damnation." --C.S. Lewis |
Adam Colbert
Nov 19, 2009, 7:36:05 PM11/19/09
to Jesus On the Web
i do understand your appreciation for context, and it certainly is
valuable. when looking at a verse, in order to truly understand it,
you must be able to look at what comes before it as well as what comes
after it, and you have an excellent conscientious habit of doing this.
but this also opens the door for quoting large sections of a single
chapter, as you often do, which, unfortunately, can lead to not
focusing on the one or two sentences that lie in the very middle of it
all. while using the greater context to explain the specific context,
the specific context (which originally is the point of discussion)
becomes not only "lost" but even somewhat forgotten and overshadowed
by the greater context.
i value your fervor and patience to quote large sections and expound
upon them the importance they hold for the one or two sentences in the
middle, but you may consider just giving a brief explanation of what's
around it - nobody here either lacks a Bible or internet access to
finding a Bible verse - so when you talk about such things, assume
people who are interested will look it up (though i understand that
you can't always make assumptions).
also, as a suggestion, perhaps you could explain the verse in the
context rather than explaining the context just to get to the verse.
get what i mean? "explain the verse in the context" - going from the
central verse, outward to the text around it. "explaining the context
just to get to the verse" - explaining everything around it just to
get to the center. just a thought.
but despite how any criticism of mine might appear, i really do
appreciate what you're doing here in this group.
On Nov 18, 9:50 pm, "mmo...@essex1.com" <mmo...@essex1.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I do very much agree with you Adam, but unfortunately sometimes I have to
> build such a large context for what I am talking about that the message often
> becomes very large and difficult. When I do write a paragraph, I know that
> their is sufficient context for the message to be fully understood. Overall,
> I fear that the reason why most theology often does not match scripture is
> because it has been sort of removed without any context and made (note that
> the word of God is not made because the word of God in the first Chapter of
> John is Christ Jesus whom is not made or created but instead eternally
> coexists with the father).
>
> Thank you,
>
> Mathew Enoch Mount
> mmo...@essex1.com
>
> ------- Original Message -------
>
> From : Adam Colbert[mailto:adamcolb...@hotmail.com]
valuable. when looking at a verse, in order to truly understand it,
you must be able to look at what comes before it as well as what comes
after it, and you have an excellent conscientious habit of doing this.
but this also opens the door for quoting large sections of a single
chapter, as you often do, which, unfortunately, can lead to not
focusing on the one or two sentences that lie in the very middle of it
all. while using the greater context to explain the specific context,
the specific context (which originally is the point of discussion)
becomes not only "lost" but even somewhat forgotten and overshadowed
by the greater context.
i value your fervor and patience to quote large sections and expound
upon them the importance they hold for the one or two sentences in the
middle, but you may consider just giving a brief explanation of what's
around it - nobody here either lacks a Bible or internet access to
finding a Bible verse - so when you talk about such things, assume
people who are interested will look it up (though i understand that
you can't always make assumptions).
also, as a suggestion, perhaps you could explain the verse in the
context rather than explaining the context just to get to the verse.
get what i mean? "explain the verse in the context" - going from the
central verse, outward to the text around it. "explaining the context
just to get to the verse" - explaining everything around it just to
get to the center. just a thought.
but despite how any criticism of mine might appear, i really do
appreciate what you're doing here in this group.
On Nov 18, 9:50 pm, "mmo...@essex1.com" <mmo...@essex1.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I do very much agree with you Adam, but unfortunately sometimes I have to
> build such a large context for what I am talking about that the message often
> becomes very large and difficult. When I do write a paragraph, I know that
> their is sufficient context for the message to be fully understood. Overall,
> I fear that the reason why most theology often does not match scripture is
> because it has been sort of removed without any context and made (note that
> the word of God is not made because the word of God in the first Chapter of
> John is Christ Jesus whom is not made or created but instead eternally
> coexists with the father).
>
> Thank you,
>
> Mathew Enoch Mount
> mmo...@essex1.com
>
> ------- Original Message -------
>
mmo...@essex1.com
Nov 20, 2009, 2:22:35 AM11/20/09
to jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
Hello,
Be holy because God is holy. To be holy means to be set apart or sanctified,
and the law of Moses is what set the Jews apart from all the other nations as
a kingdom of priests. If Jesus lived the law so that we do not have to, then
that would mean that God is holy so that we need not be holy. If the King
whom is judge over the law lived the law, then should his subjects disregard
it on his account of keeping it? You then ask, "why then do the apostles
break the written code?", so I will ask you which is better to keep the letter
of the law and be fruitless or to nail the law onto the cross and be
fruitful? Which one is the greater of the two desires of any king that people
be productive with little regulation or that they are unproductive with much
regulation, and of the two which would you rather work for?
Be holy because God is holy. To be holy means to be set apart or sanctified,
and the law of Moses is what set the Jews apart from all the other nations as
a kingdom of priests. If Jesus lived the law so that we do not have to, then
that would mean that God is holy so that we need not be holy. If the King
whom is judge over the law lived the law, then should his subjects disregard
it on his account of keeping it? You then ask, "why then do the apostles
break the written code?", so I will ask you which is better to keep the letter
of the law and be fruitless or to nail the law onto the cross and be
fruitful? Which one is the greater of the two desires of any king that people
be productive with little regulation or that they are unproductive with much
regulation, and of the two which would you rather work for?
From : Evan Hale[mailto:logo...@yahoo.com]
Sent : 11/19/2009 12:32:56 PM
So is the whole thing like a tradeoff? Jesus lives the law so we don't have
to?
to?
mmo...@essex1.com
Nov 20, 2009, 2:43:14 AM11/20/09
to jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
Hello,
Is it easier for the one whom speaks to visit millions or even billions of
people and talk with them directly giving full detailed instruction that they
care not listen to anyway, or is it easier to elect a few people to write the
message to be copied to give to the masses so that whenever they care to read
it they can? If the same amount of work could be accomplished by both methods
and if one is easy while the other is hard, then why would God not choose the
easier of the two? If both the bible and all of us came about as a result of
God’s word having been spoken, then are you saying that you are God because
what was spoken made you to demonstrate his speech? Of the two the bible and
Christ, which one has risen from the dead with a mouth that can still speak,
and which one if put in the fire is burned without returning? Which one do
you want to be like?
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
------- Original Message -------
From : Evan Hale[mailto:logo...@yahoo.com]
Sent : 11/19/2009 1:19:29 PM
Is it easier for the one whom speaks to visit millions or even billions of
people and talk with them directly giving full detailed instruction that they
care not listen to anyway, or is it easier to elect a few people to write the
message to be copied to give to the masses so that whenever they care to read
it they can? If the same amount of work could be accomplished by both methods
and if one is easy while the other is hard, then why would God not choose the
easier of the two? If both the bible and all of us came about as a result of
God’s word having been spoken, then are you saying that you are God because
what was spoken made you to demonstrate his speech? Of the two the bible and
Christ, which one has risen from the dead with a mouth that can still speak,
and which one if put in the fire is burned without returning? Which one do
you want to be like?
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
------- Original Message -------
From : Evan Hale[mailto:logo...@yahoo.com]
Are you arguing that Scripture and Jesus are the Word of God in the same
sense? That the Bible is therefore God?
sense? That the Bible is therefore God?
mmo...@essex1.com
Nov 20, 2009, 2:55:54 AM11/20/09
to jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
Hello,
I appreciate that you appreciate what I am doing on this group, and that gives
me confidence to pursue professional ministry. If I get a position as a
professional minister, then I can multiply my efforts with this news group
because I will not need to spend my time on a multitude of other things.
Larry’s people are in need of a congregation, and our hope is that somehow God
will put these things together in a way that proclaims his name.
From : Adam Colbert[mailto:adamc...@hotmail.com]
Sent : 11/19/2009 6:36:05 PM
I appreciate that you appreciate what I am doing on this group, and that gives
me confidence to pursue professional ministry. If I get a position as a
professional minister, then I can multiply my efforts with this news group
because I will not need to spend my time on a multitude of other things.
Larry’s people are in need of a congregation, and our hope is that somehow God
will put these things together in a way that proclaims his name.
From : Adam Colbert[mailto:adamc...@hotmail.com]
Sent : 11/19/2009 6:36:05 PM
Evan Hale
Nov 20, 2009, 9:54:26 AM11/20/09
to jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
I guess the thing is, fruitfulness in the Old Testament and in the New mean completely different things. The Law was clearly a big deal for the ancient Hebrews, but it means virtually nothing to the apostles, or to Jesus, considering His willingness to disregard Moses' teaching as corrupt or insufficient on numerous occasions. To be productive, to Moses, would be to follow the Law as strictly as possible. This is obviously not the case for Jesus or Paul. They seem to have a different law in mind, one that coincides with Moses' law at some points, but differs at many others.
For the Jews, the letter of the law WAS the spirit of the law. The Old Testament was straight from God's mouth, and doing everything He told you was of utmost importance. But Jesus reroutes the encryptions on the whole thing, so that certain issues were foregrounded, others backgrounded, and some completely abandoned. In effect, despite His speech to the contrary, He has abandoned the old law and instituted a new one. What, precisely, was the point of the Jerusalem council if this is not the case? The early Christians explicitly decided that it was unnecessary to obey the bulk of the Mosaic law, and substituted certain Jewish rituals, like circumcision, with their own baptisms and Lord's suppers. |
"The alternative to tragedy is damnation." --C.S. Lewis |
Evan Hale
Nov 20, 2009, 1:26:00 PM11/20/09
to jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
"I fear that the reason why most theology often does not match scripture is because it has been sort of removed without any context and made (note that the word of God is not made because the word of God in the first Chapter of John is Christ Jesus whom |
is not made or created but instead eternally
coexists with the father)." (italics mine) I would much rather be Jesus, but you seem to be equivocating, i.e., you seem to regard most theology as problematic because it is "made," or created, whereas Scripture, according to the above passage, "eternally coexists with the father," or is uncreated, and is apparently identical with Christ Jesus. If this is not your intent, then I have no idea what you were getting at with the parenthetical remark.
Either you're elevating scripture to the level of deity, or you're making an argument similar to those who argued that matter coexists eternally with God. I'm just interested in getting some clarity on your views.
|
Evan "The alternative to tragedy is damnation." --C.S. Lewis |
|
mmo...@essex1.com
Nov 21, 2009, 12:18:29 AM11/21/09
to jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
I am not confident that the scripture is the word of God, but instead it is
the written record of the word of God. According to scripture Christ Jesus is
the word of God. Yes, Evan from my understanding ancient Jewish sages
believed that the Torah was eternally begotten. (Jesus is the word of God)
Sent : 11/20/2009 12:26:00 PM
christ+un...@googlegroups.com.
the written record of the word of God. According to scripture Christ Jesus is
the word of God. Yes, Evan from my understanding ancient Jewish sages
believed that the Torah was eternally begotten. (Jesus is the word of God)
Sent : 11/20/2009 12:26:00 PM
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mmo...@essex1.com
Nov 21, 2009, 1:16:20 AM11/21/09
to jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
Hello,
" Do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to men who know the law—that the
law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? For example, by law a
married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her
husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. So then, if she
marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an
adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not
an adulteress, even though she marries another man.
So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that
you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order
that we might bear fruit to God. For when we were controlled by the sinful
nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so
that we bore fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us, we
have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit,
and not in the old way of the written code." Romans 7:1-6 (NIV)
We thus know that the law is written on our hearts when the Holy Ghost has
baptized us into the tomb of Christ and when our new nature has risen. When
this happens we are given a measure of faith (this is a righteousness apart
from the law), and this measure of faith is the righteousness of Christ
imputed into us (the talents given as the master went away or namely the
spiritual gifts). If the righteousness of Christ has anything to do with the
law of Moses (it does), then when Christ imputes his righteousness into us we
make the law real in our flesh even if we know not the written code. To try
to debunk the written code is like trying to debunk what has been written on
our hears for the law of Adam and the law of Christ are the same with the
exception than one is the righteous judge and the other is not (by law I mean
the teaching that has been revealed by God). We need to be crucified to one
and thus be risen to life to the other because the righteousness of Adam will
only enslave us to sin, but the righteousness of Christ will give us life.
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
------- Original Message -------
From : Evan Hale[mailto:logo...@yahoo.com]
Sent : 11/20/2009 8:54:26 AM
" Do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to men who know the law—that the
law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? For example, by law a
married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her
husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. So then, if she
marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an
adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not
an adulteress, even though she marries another man.
So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that
you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order
that we might bear fruit to God. For when we were controlled by the sinful
nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so
that we bore fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us, we
have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit,
and not in the old way of the written code." Romans 7:1-6 (NIV)
We thus know that the law is written on our hearts when the Holy Ghost has
baptized us into the tomb of Christ and when our new nature has risen. When
this happens we are given a measure of faith (this is a righteousness apart
from the law), and this measure of faith is the righteousness of Christ
imputed into us (the talents given as the master went away or namely the
spiritual gifts). If the righteousness of Christ has anything to do with the
law of Moses (it does), then when Christ imputes his righteousness into us we
make the law real in our flesh even if we know not the written code. To try
to debunk the written code is like trying to debunk what has been written on
our hears for the law of Adam and the law of Christ are the same with the
exception than one is the righteous judge and the other is not (by law I mean
the teaching that has been revealed by God). We need to be crucified to one
and thus be risen to life to the other because the righteousness of Adam will
only enslave us to sin, but the righteousness of Christ will give us life.
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
------- Original Message -------
From : Evan Hale[mailto:logo...@yahoo.com]
I guess the thing is, fruitfulness in the Old Testament and in the New mean
completely different things. The Law was clearly a big deal for the ancient
Hebrews, but it means virtually nothing to the apostles, or to Jesus,
considering His willingness to disregard Moses' teaching as corrupt or
insufficient on numerous occasions. To be productive, to Moses, would be to
follow the Law as strictly as possible. This is obviously not the case for
Jesus or Paul. They seem to have a different law in mind, one that coincides
with Moses' law at some points, but differs at many others.
For the Jews, the letter of the law WAS the spirit of the law. The Old
Testament was straight from God's mouth, and doing everything He told you was
of utmost importance. But Jesus reroutes the encryptions on the whole thing,
so that certain issues were foregrounded, others backgrounded, and some
completely abandoned. In effect, despite His speech to the contrary, He has
abandoned the old law and instituted a new one. What, precisely, was the
point of the Jerusalem council if this is not the case? The early Christians
explicitly decided that it was unnecessary to obey the bulk of the Mosaic law,
and substituted certain Jewish rituals, like circumcision, with their own
baptisms and Lord's suppers.
completely different things. The Law was clearly a big deal for the ancient
Hebrews, but it means virtually nothing to the apostles, or to Jesus,
considering His willingness to disregard Moses' teaching as corrupt or
insufficient on numerous occasions. To be productive, to Moses, would be to
follow the Law as strictly as possible. This is obviously not the case for
Jesus or Paul. They seem to have a different law in mind, one that coincides
with Moses' law at some points, but differs at many others.
For the Jews, the letter of the law WAS the spirit of the law. The Old
Testament was straight from God's mouth, and doing everything He told you was
of utmost importance. But Jesus reroutes the encryptions on the whole thing,
so that certain issues were foregrounded, others backgrounded, and some
completely abandoned. In effect, despite His speech to the contrary, He has
abandoned the old law and instituted a new one. What, precisely, was the
point of the Jerusalem council if this is not the case? The early Christians
explicitly decided that it was unnecessary to obey the bulk of the Mosaic law,
and substituted certain Jewish rituals, like circumcision, with their own
baptisms and Lord's suppers.
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