RE: Re: I have returned!

[mmo...@essex1.com]

Hello,

Yes Peter neither I nor Adam defend the Judas whom betrayed Christ. The fact
that you say such things Peter tells me that you do not understand or believe
what we have to say.

Thank you,

Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com

------- Original Message -------
From : Adam Colbert[mailto:adamc...@hotmail.com]
Sent : 11/23/2009 3:50:57 PM
To : jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
Cc :
Subject : RE: Re: I have returned!

really? i defended Judas? i know i get online in the wee hours and
bounce around the padded walls of message boards (get it? "padded"
walls? html joke..... :/....) and forget the next day about the tracks
i've left, but this is new to me. i'm not usually the one to ask for
citations, but you're gonna have to provide a link to the post for me
to believe it.

also, regarding your previous post, Mathew is dyslexic. you may not
have known, and perhaps you just thought he was bad at spelling at
times, but he seriously is dyslexic. and if anybody gets annoyed at
seeing typos, it would be me (my brother can attest to this). so it's
not exactly fair to pick on him for saying, "...Peter a hole lot."
back in the days at SIU, i asked him if he proofread what he wrote to
check for wrongly written homonyms and such, and he replied that he
wouldn't know they were wrong if he saw them. so please just let that
fly. i'm sure you didn't know, but now you do.

[mmo...@essex1.com]

Hello,

Peter, I think that the reason why you do not believe in the blood atonement
of Jesus Christ is because you would rather put the lord up for sale on your
Blog than to see him crucified. Judas may not have realized that by selling
Jesus that Jesus would be crucified. Now that Christ has been crucified you
would like to believe that it was never necessary.

Thank you,

Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com

------- Original Message -------

From : Peter VanGee[mailto:peter...@gmail.com]
Sent : 11/25/2009 9:50:50 AM

To : jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
Cc :
Subject : RE: Re: I have returned!

Hi Matt:
 
Actually, I said Jonah was the most successful Old Testament prophet.  Jesus
was killed in the prime of life.  Moses never made it to the promised land. 
Need I say more?
 
With regard to one thing...yes.  Blood atonement comes from natural religion. 
It is a scapegoat mechanism turned into a rite.  Given that they substitute an
animal for a man I guess we can say its a step toward holiness...a secular
infusion...and the serpent is an ancient symbol for the world.


"None shall hurt or destroy
on all my holy mountain, says the
Lord."  Is 65.25
 
Logically speaking, None and all implies everything.  Including your precious
blood attonement...if a son of man has to become your devil to bang the truth
into your hard head then so be it...the most successful prophets are
unsuccessful...connect the dots...you're crucifying me along with Christ here.

 
And to Adam...fish and fresca do sound good - especially on friday.
 
Know the Lord,
 
Pete
 
http://flowerinthefrost.blogspot.com/

[ON EARTH Ministries]

I agree with your take on the commercialization of the Jesus Way. And
I thought reference to the one who recieved thirty gold pieces was
insightful. Although I might have felt compelled to take a subtler
tact with others, I understand your harsh rebuke in light of your
history with Peter.


Peace, and All Good Things,

Brother Larry Roy Woodsmall
ON EARTH MINISTRIES

[Peter VanGee]

Brother Matthew:

 

Look at my blog, I am a complete failure.  I have no followers.  That being said, let me ask this question:

 

What is more noble?

 

Me - through a conscious choice of free will - letting the powers that be share a few pennies from their surplus and thereby bringing their actions back to God...

 

or

 

A protestant preacher - making more than 60 grand a year - taking a contribution from a couple of 19 year old newlywed kids who make minimum wage.

 

The world is what it is...  That being said, if God is gonna make our enemy our footstool...at some point we have to let the enemy be our footstool.  I have not handed Jesus over to the priests, so they can conduct their misguided idea of blood atonement on him.  And Caiaphus did say that it was better for one to die than for all.  I have fulfilled his desire because the son of man is sent to save the world...not condemn it.

Know the Lord,

 

Pete

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[Peter VanGee]

Brother Larry:

 

Our emails contain ads.  By your logic, its already commercialized. 

 

Know the Lord,

 

Pete

[Mathew Enoch Mount]

Hello,

I understand your point Peter. Blood atonement in my understanding is
about having communion with God, and it is through the birth, death,
and resurrection of Jesus Christ that people become united to God. I
am confident that the apostles all grieved what was done to Jesus
Christ at the crucifixion and this may have even been true for Judas
as well. Regarding the cross of Jesus it is something that we read
was even forced onto someone else as well, "A certain man from Cyrene,
Simon, the father of Alexander and Rufus, was passing by on his way in
from the country, and they forced him to carry the cross." Mark 15:21
(NIV) Overall, the fact that the cross of Christ was forced onto
someone else other than Jesus tells us that it was not by free will
that the man carried the cross but that it was an act of God.

If we look at the fact that Peter was admit in his strength to such an
extent that he believed that by his fee will that he would never go
along with crucifying the lord, then we find the following is said,
"Then Jesus told them, "This very night you will all fall away on
account of me, for it is written: " 'I will strike the shepherd, and
the sheep of the flock will be scattered.' But after I have risen, I
will go ahead of you into Galilee." Peter replied, "Even if all fall
away on account of you, I never will." "I tell you the truth," Jesus
answered, "this very night, before the rooster crows, you will disown
me three times." But Peter declared, "Even if I have to die with you,
I will never disown you." And all the other disciples said the same."
Matthew 26:31-35 (NIV) The point thus is that we are not completely
saved through repenting (baptism) because we are instead saved through
Christ’s work in us regardless of what we do to denounce the lord in
our life while he is being crucified.

Consider the context of scripture that Jesus speaks concerning, ""On
that day a fountain will be opened to the house of David and the
inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and impurity. "On
that day, I will banish the names of the idols from the land, and they
will be remembered no more," declares the LORD Almighty. "I will
remove both the prophets and the spirit of impurity from the land.
And if anyone still prophesies, his father and mother, to whom he was
born, will say to him, 'You must die, because you have told lies in
the LORD's name.' When he prophesies, his own parents will stab him.
"On that day every prophet will be ashamed of his prophetic vision.
He will not put on a prophet's garment of hair in order to deceive.
He will say, 'I am not a prophet. I am a farmer; the land has been my
livelihood since my youth.' If someone asks him, 'What are these
wounds on your body?' he will answer, 'The wounds I was given at the
house of my friends.' "Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, against
the man who is close to me!" declares the LORD Almighty. "Strike the
shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered, and I will turn my hand
against the little ones. In the whole land," declares the LORD, "two-
thirds will be struck down and perish; yet one-third will be left in
it. This third I will bring into the fire; I will refine them like
silver and test them like gold. They will call on my name and I will
answer them; I will say, 'They are my people,' and they will say, 'The
LORD is our God.'"" Zechariah 13:1-9 (NIV) Overall, if you look
closely the Lord whom tells the sward to awaken and strike the
shepherd is God the Father telling Satan to do his thing with Christ,
and then the hand of the Father goes out against the little ones (they
are refined in the fire).

Was it then necessary for the devil to enter Judas and for Christ to
tell him to do what it is you are going to do and to do it quickly?
Yes, and it was also necessary for all to fall away just as God the
Father directed the sward to awaken and strike down Christ. God the
Father then turned his hand against the little ones (this was the
children of God), and not only that but those whom are beaten for
being false profits have all kinds of shame put on them because of the
crucifixion as they say that they are farmers and that they had been
so since their birth. Overall, the point is that God the Father
according to the scripture is the orchestrating force behind the
crucifixion of Christ as it is his plan, and Satan is an instrument in
that plan doing what God would have him do.

Thank you,

Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com

[Mathew Enoch Mount]

Hello,

We certainly gain sponsorship for being on the web, but I would like
everyone to know that I have not yet made a dime on this new group and
I may not ever. For someone whom has six degrees and ten years of
college education you might think that I am very wealthy and that I
have a high position in society, but this is not true at all. The
sort of message that I have been communicating in one that is true,
and that is why I do not have all sorts of wealth and prestige in the
world. People pay big money to have someone tell them what they would
like to listen to that would comfort them, and this is much of the
purpose in Universities producing gobs of people that learn the ways
of the world.

Most employers would see a person with a university education and
immediately think that they could be hired to bless the golden calf
that their hands have made. They start the employment process with
paperwork that makes a covenant with death, and then they go on to
instruct a manager how to bless these things and offer them as a
sacrament to others. Overall, about a year ago I had the opportunity
to make a six figure income, but my employer held to evolution so
firmly that the business would hire far more people than needed and
cause them to fight against each other for survival such that people
would needlessly both go in and out.

The business would thus hire more people than needed and would cut the
labor hours of those whom did not perform as well until people fought
over their livelihood and someone would eventually quit or be
terminated. Because of my education I was hired for a position to
train me as a member of upper level management that would administer
this system, and when I was asked why I went to school after being
hired I made reference to my Christian study and when I was asked if I
believed in evolution and said no then I was soon enough terminated
from my position as the business did not find any purpose in keeping
me in a training position for upper level management because my
employer did not see any opportunities for me to become a member of
upper level management after I trained for a position for eight months
while employed in a paid full-time in store training position. If I
would have said for example, "show me the money and I will believe
whatever you say", then I would be far on my way by now to managing a
240,000 square foot retail store owned by one of the richest men in
the world.

What is my point? Is my point that we should not make money? Is my
point that God will curse those whom love him? Is my point that God
is somehow evil? No. My point is that like Lazareth all the days of
his life he was downtrodden with only a dog to lick his wounds because
that is what the Father wanted, and the rich man had all the material
blessings of the world because that is what the Father wanted. We
know that this was the will of the Father that this happened because
it was Christ that told the story about what his Father had done, and
it was the rich man that went into hell and the poor man that was
saved. Overall, all the days of the life of the poor man he was being
refined in the fire and being made perfect like Christ and when he
died he went to his father Abraham, but the rich man was not being
refined in the fire to be made perfect and when he died he went to
hell.

Is it then better to be a millionaire without any cares in the world,
or is it better to die on the cross. God although he owns the entire
world chose one and not the other, so why? Why would Jesus die on the
cross with all of his flesh torn off and blood gushing in every
direction when in fact he could have lived as the rich man because he
is God? By Christ death on the cross (among other things) taught us
whom God is and whom God isn’t. In fact it is written about Christ
that in him we move and have our being and not only that but also that
through him everything was made and without him nothing was made that
has been made, so the point is that Christ has always been sacrificing
of himself in making everything that exists.

You might say, "how can I praise God for he just kicked me in the
nuts", but I must remind you that he only rebukes those whom he
loves. If God does not love you, then like the rich man he will not
rebuke you. If however God does love you, then he will make you into
his Son whom died on the cross.

Thank you,

Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com

[Peter VanGee]

I understand your point Peter.  Blood atonement in my understanding is
about having communion with God, and it is through the birth, death,
and resurrection of Jesus Christ that people become united to God.  I
am confident that the apostles all grieved what was done to Jesus
Christ at the crucifixion and this may have even been true for Judas
as well.  Regarding the cross of Jesus it is something that we read
was even forced onto someone else as well, "A certain man from Cyrene,
Simon, the father of Alexander and Rufus, was passing by on his way in
from the country, and they forced him to carry the cross."  Mark 15:21
(NIV)  Overall, the fact that the cross of Christ was forced onto
someone else other than Jesus tells us that it was not by free will
that the man carried the cross but that it was an act of God.

Actually, Simon proves free will.  He told the Romans if they hit Jesus one more time, he'd quit carrying the cross.  There are consequences for our actions, but outside forces do not negate free will.  Also - at some point, you're gonna have to acknowledge that your idea of blood atonement isn't blood atonement.

 

 

If we look at the fact that Peter was admit in his strength to such an
extent that he believed that by his fee will that he would never go
along with crucifying the lord, then we find the following is said,
"Then Jesus told them, "This very night you will all fall away on
account of me, for it is written:  " 'I will strike the shepherd, and
the sheep of the flock will be scattered.'  But after I have risen, I
will go ahead of you into Galilee."  Peter replied, "Even if all fall
away on account of you, I never will."  "I tell you the truth," Jesus
answered, "this very night, before the rooster crows, you will disown
me three times."  But Peter declared, "Even if I have to die with you,
I will never disown you." And all the other disciples said the same."
Matthew 26:31-35 (NIV)  The point thus is that we are not completely
saved through repenting (baptism) because we are instead saved through
Christ’s work in us regardless of what we do to denounce the lord in
our life while he is being crucified.

Give Peter (the apostle)  a break here, he was the only one who tried to stop them from arresting Jesus.  I had a simililar situation.  A couple of weeks ago there was a homeless man at an intersection looking for money.  Sunburned and blistered from being outside all the time in Miami.  As he didn't approach my car because he was gathering his stuff up, I didn't give him money.  He walked over to a CVS.  I had to go there too and passed him in the parking lot with my car - I didn't stop because I was looking for a place to park.  In the store, he passed by me too.  As I didn't want to embarrass him - I didn't give him money there.  I thought to myself later, three times He passed by.  I asked God for forgiveness.

 

Was it then necessary for the devil to enter Judas and for Christ to
tell him to do what it is you are going to do and to do it quickly?

 

My take on this is a little different.  Its a polite way of saying, "Get out of my face, I know what you're up to and I'm sick of looking at you."  Which is probably what I would have said...Its a bit like God saying to satan..."Go to hell!"  After he refused to serve humanity.

 

Know the Lord,

 

Pete

 

 

 

[Mathew Enoch Mount]

Hello,

I hate to say this Peter, but poor people like the one that you are
talking about often get not just overlooked but also victimized
because (as I have seen happen) someone will give their testimony
about how they passed by a poor person such as your testimony, and
next someone else will give a counter testimony about poor people
being somehow lazy and satanic. Next what happens is people believe
based upon what appears to be sound reasoning that poor people are the
enemy. Eventually the poor person gets crucified in one way or
another by the ‘body of Christ’. Overall, I am not discouraging you
from giving your testimony, but I am just giving you my personal
experience from Sunday School about the subject having attended
multiple churches.

You might be thinking to yourself that what I am talking about appears
to odd and unusual to believe. What I think happens is that certain
people get jealous about God’s grace when they see the body of Christ
administering God’s grace, and they think to themselves in less
complicated terms, "I pay a hoard of money out of my paycheck for poor
people through tax dollars and thus this has gone far enough, after
all, the government administers God’s grace by force and thus why
should the body of Christ also administer his special grace to these
people as well." Overall, when the message goes out that poor people
receive grace, then it insults those whom have worked so very hard for
their salvation.

If you remember the story of the Portugal Son, then you will find that
one son came back to the father and received grace while the other was
so offended buy this that he, as we learn, eventually quit. The story
of the Portugal Son is about the Jews and the gentiles. When the
gentiles (and so called sinners) received grace, then it was the Jews
whom became highly offended. Overall, I mention this Peter because
having heard your story I can understand how many whom favor
repentance for more than blood atonement would listen to your story
and think to themselves, "I have labored so hard repenting of all my
sins and being saved, and this person comes along and receives God’s
grace for free whom does not deserve it."

Yes Peter my point is that if you tell your story to certain people,
then they may give you such cases as I have described and thus what
will you say? I am not saying that their is any truth in such cases
at all, but what I am saying is that because of the bad attitudes that
people have about God you could in fact find a mob of people looking
for the poor homeless man awaiting the opportunity to bludgeon him to
death so to speak. Overall, you may thus find that for every good
work that you do a hoard of people that learn about it will be so
insulted by God’s grace that they will try to destroy any and all good
works that you do.

Thank you,

Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com

> Pete- Hide quoted text -

[Peter VanGee]

On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 12:22 PM, Mathew Enoch Mount <mmo...@essex1.com> wrote:

Hello,

I hate to say this Peter, but poor people like the one that you are
talking about often get not just overlooked but also victimized
because (as I have seen happen) someone will give their testimony
about how they passed by a poor person such as your testimony, and
next someone else will give a counter testimony about poor people
being somehow lazy and satanic.  Next what happens is people believe
based upon what appears to be sound reasoning that poor people are the
enemy.  Eventually the poor person gets crucified in one way or
another by the ‘body of Christ’.  Overall, I am not discouraging you
from giving your testimony, but I am just giving you my personal
experience from Sunday School about the subject having attended
multiple churches.

 

One wonders why you didn't bring up, "Blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is kingdom of God."  The thinking you describe precedes Christ...and Job for that matter.  It is satanic.

You might be thinking to yourself that what I am talking about appears
to odd and unusual to believe.  What I think happens is that certain
people get jealous about God’s grace when they see the body of Christ
administering God’s grace, and they think to themselves in less
complicated terms, "I pay a hoard of money out of my paycheck for poor
people through tax dollars and thus this has gone far enough, after
all, the government administers God’s grace by force and thus why
should the body of Christ also administer his special grace to these
people as well."  Overall, when the message goes out that poor people
receive grace, then it insults those whom have worked so very hard for
their salvation.

 

Mammon has nothing to do with God's grace.  What would happen if we put the least first...say, Haiti before Iraq...Although Afghanistan and Iraq need alot of help, just not the 'kind' of help we are giving (in my humble opinion).  Personally, I think Muslims have to excorcise their own demons.  This is their Jihad. 

Yes Peter my point is that if you tell your story to certain people,
then they may give you such cases as I have described and thus what
will you say?  I am not saying that their is any truth in such cases
at all, but what I am saying is that because of the bad attitudes that
people have about God you could in fact find a mob of people looking
for the poor homeless man awaiting the opportunity to bludgeon him to
death so to speak.  Overall, you may thus find that for every good
work that you do a hoard of people that learn about it will be so
insulted by God’s grace that they will try to destroy any and all good
works that you do.

I'm not sure I follow you here, I only identified the needy man with Christ.  Homeless people are occasionally brutalized...those who are unjustly brutalized enter into union with Christ...even if they are not Christian.  Why mention a connection between charity and brutality?  The two have nothing to do with each other.  In a sense, this is eerily similar to your idea of blood atonement.  I'm not sure you understand that...but it is the reason the Church gave(prior to the King James version) when saying people should not be able to interpret the Bible for themselves.  Listen to what you're saying...If I give money to a man the devil may persecute him.  The devil is a roaring lion looking for someone to consume...who or when is beyond the scope of my control.  I can only control me...and even that control is finite.

 

Know the Lord,

 

Pete

[mmo...@essex1.com]

Hello,

Peter, I am not saying that you should not give a poor person money, but what
I am saying is that when you administer the grace of God to anyone it arouses
the devil and causes an uphill battle. This is what Jesus had to fight
against in his ministry regarding the Pharisees whom believed that they earned
their salvation or achieved their salvation through works. My point if you
can see it is that at many churches their might not be a Christian in the
masses because instead of being glad about the grace of God it offends people,
and many thus go out to settle the score.

Thank you,

Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com

------- Original Message -------
From : Peter VanGee[mailto:peter...@gmail.com]

Sent : 11/27/2009 10:14:35 AM

To : jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
Cc :
Subject : RE: Re: I have returned!

[Peter VanGee]

My point if you can see it is that at many churches their might not be a Christian in the
masses because instead of being glad about the grace of God it offends people,
and many thus go out to settle the score.

I'll be the first to admit that I don't know why people do what they do.  That being said, I'll err on the side of hope and self-interest here.  I figure even the most evil men want what is good for them, the problem being they don't really know what is good for them.  I'll even go out on a limb and say this is why Plato wrote the Republic.  The premise of which is, only those who really know what the good is should rule.  From a practical standpoint, this is almost impossible.

Know the Lord,

 

Pete