Christianity - Going, going, GONE
Ariel
piece of machinery.....
I am a believer, but not a believer of religion.
Religion nearly stole my soul!
I believe in a lifestyle as a believer, a disciple of some discipline
other than this soulkiller called spiritual freedom. Something need to
be different!
Please, somewhere something must be different.
Is there something like a Anti-Christian,christian. I think I am one
of those.
Deep in my soul there is a feeling of incompleteness. Sometimes I feel
like a undeveloped fetus of some unknown being. I used to call myself
a "born-again" Christian. But born-againers are supposed to See the
Kingdom of God and Enter the Kingdom of God. Nobody I know, can and
frankly, neither can I!!
We all talk about it, but the track record of the "spirit people"
doesn't look so good.
It is my believe that we are living our lives as this developing
fetus. Everything we think we know, is only part truth. We don't have
the ability to see,hear or feel the Kingdom of God. We are living in
the womb of the Spirit of God and must leave it to the Spirit of God
to "grow" us into the beings we are supposed to become.
In time we will be "born"I truly believe that it is only then that we
can be useful as a people of God, in this world.
It must be terrible to be "stillborn" after a long life of
learning,struggling to understand,and fooling oneself that one
understand all the subtle ways of the spirit.
Jacob
I detect some sincerity and at the same time perplexity in what you
have written. You were considering yourself born again till now, but
you have given up that label because you don't seem to fit into the
description of such people. You are also disillusioned with other
people who proclaim to be born again who also don't have a good
record, as you say. So you conclude that you must be still on the way
to this new birth, like a foetus still to be born.
What attracts me about you is your sincerity in wanting to be really
born again, to have the real experience that the Bible talks about,
such as seeing and entering the kingdom of God. Am I correct in what I
am saying?
The problem with being born again is that it is a somewhat mystical
experience because it is a spiritual experience. It cannot be tested
in a laboratory or measured with any instruments. Like a tree that
takes time to produce fruit, in many cases the fruit with which we can
judge the new life takes time to come out. So we can become confused
and ask, "Was I really born again? Is this all real? Are all these
others shamming it?"
There are millions of cases over the 2000 years where people's lives
have been changed after they were born again. It is a real experience.
So if we have doubts about our own experience, shouldn't we look to
see what's wrong with us, rather than assume that it is all bogus?
I am of the opinion that a lot of people who think they are born
again, are not. Real born again experience follows a certain sequence.
A sinner recognises his sin--he knows that his sins are going to take
him away from God and into hell--he is happy to hear that Jesus has
come to save him-he is happy and thankful to go to Jesus and receive
his salvation. That's how a man is born again. But what is happening
nowadays is that preachers don't talk about sin. Jesus is portrayed as
someone who is standing outside the heart and pleading for entrance
inside, and then someone graciously allows Him in! Then this person
thinks he is born again! This is totally wrong.
Jesus talks about people trying to get into the sheepfold not through
the gate, but over the fence. But if we will go through the gate, in
the proper way, we will experience true salvation.
Jacob
Peter VanGee
----------------------------------------------------------------
Larry Roy Woodsmall §§§§ Freed from Monasticism
Evan L. Hale §§§§§§§§§§§ Thankful for Whiskey
Adam Colbert §§§§§§§§§§ Jesus look alike
Mathew Enoch Mount §§§§ Conservative
===>
Together we operate Jesus on the Web
----------------------------------------------------------------
You received this message because you are subscribed
To the Google Groups "Jesus On the Web" group.
To post to this group, send email to
===>
jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
----------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
===>
jesus-the-chri...@googlegroups.com
----------------------------------------------------------------
For more options, visit this group at
===>
http://groups.google.com/group/jesus-the-christ?hl=en
----------------------------------------------------------------
Ariel
I went through the whole experience of giving my life to Jesus, He has
done some pretty amazing things to me! I used to be an alcoholic and
was well under way - drinking myself to death. I lost almost ten years
of my children's growing up years. I know God can change a man and I
felt it in my bones.
There is this exitement of discovering the depth of the scriptures and
power of alone time with God.It is something I never,ever want to
lose.
But, you know, Jacob, there is so many people out there that are
hurting. Hurting because of the way we as christians react to their
pain and trouble.The church as organisation is OK, You've got al your
welfare projects,prayer groups,cellgroups,outreaches and fundraisers.
And it is nice to belong to a dinamic church group. But at the end of
the day it does'nt realy give any lasting satisfaction. So many people
I know, move from church to church. Unlearning stuff to learn new
stuff again which will be unlearn in a few years time.
I went trough a "counceling" session lasting four hours - boy, Hitlers
men got nothing on these guys !! In their own eyes, thy are the
untouchables, Ifyou speak out or criticise them you quickly become
arch enemy number one.
According to the teachings and dogmas of most churches I am a born-
again christian. I know in my soul that I came out of the darkness
into the light. Man! I am spirit-filled, as the pentecostals put it.
But I know in the deepest recesses of my soul that I only scratched
the surface. I want more,and more,and more.
Thats why I went on this quest - searching ,forever searching! The
Bible says "Search and you shall find".
That is how I stumbled on this group and a few others.
Made some friends along the way and by the looks of it, tick some
people off!
Great , I love It.
I would just like to say the members and readers of this group. Don't
ever give up,ask questions and keep on searching for more of God.
There is so much more of Him. There is no way that us human beings
can ever "use up" God.
I enjoyed some of the posts in this group.
So keep it coming
Blessings to all
> > understand all the subtle ways of the spirit.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Peter VanGee
men got nothing on these guys !! In their own eyes, thy are the
untouchables, Ifyou speak out or criticise them you quickly become
arch enemy number one.
Who are these guys you speak of? Shall I take a different approach? With regard to religion, you're either Cain or you're Abel. You either persecute Christ or you don't. You choose who you want to be. There isn't any in between.
Mathew Enoch Mount
I am sorry Ariel that I have not had an opportunity to write on Jesus
on the Web recently as I have a broken keyboard and have been working
on my application to a Master of Divinity program. I have read your
posts on this thread, and I see incredible value in your testimony. I
assume that you live in Africa as Jacob lives in India and Peter lives
in the United States with many of the rest of us. Let me thus explain
some of the problems that I think that you are responding to from my
perspective having attended a vast majority of the main stream
churches in the United States, having studied under two bishops of two
different groups, having performed apologetics in a 20,000 student
university in the center of university life, and having founded this
news group and set in office other people to administer it from a
diverse set of backgrounds (may God bless their work).
When I listen to people talk about religious freedom, I often hate
what they have to say because almost always people are talking about
freedom from Christ (they simply do not what Christ to be king in
their life in any real way but instead just want the blessing of
eternal salvation that churches sell such as like Judas would sell the
lord). Christ never proclaimed religious freedom because if he had
then he would have never died on the cross nor would the apostles have
died on the cross. In fact people crucifying Christians is what makes
the joy of the Christian complete as the Christian becomes crucified
with Christ, so we should never shrink from death such that we take
hold of life and religious freedom as opposed to uniting ourselves
with Christ on the cross.
My understanding is that in order to be born again we must offer
ourselves up to God as a living sacrifice in order to put to death
Adam in us and receive the new nature of Jesus Christ, and this is how
we worship God. Offering ourselves as living sacrifices does not mean
that we secretly join in churches to do secret worship and then go out
into the world to be united with it, but instead we show Christ to the
world such that it can crucify us and thus make our joy complete.
Everyone who was crucified with Christ was crucified in public out of
LOVE, and this crucifixion was not unique to one denomination or
another but instead the benefits had been shared by all Christians.
The reason Ariel why I point out the fact that I believe that you are
in Africa is because in the United States we have a very bad problem
that is infecting other lands. This nation unlike others is vastly
Protestant with Protestant churches competing with each other, and in
a small aria of 20,000 citizens what is common is to have twenty to a
hundred (I am estimating) churches that are not in communion with each
other and often are opposed to each other in doctrine. Since such
churches often believe that salvation comes from believing in the
correct doctrines thus people that have different doctrines become
alienated from each other as well as their churches become alienated
from each other, and eventually even through something like 75% of the
United States is Christian the people often elect leaders to impose
‘religious freedom’ over them in such a way that leaders are
agnostics, atheists, or they have little care for Christ. Thus some
cities have banned various displays of Christianity, and if a leader
in business says anything about Jesus, then they are often crucified
on the crucifix of the God of religious freedom.
What I have seen happen in the United States is that churches often
believe that they need to bring salvation into other nations
(especially African nations) because they think that since everyone is
either Orthodox, Episcopal, or Roman Catholic that thus those people
would benefit from having the ‘truth’ brought to them so that people
could be saved (things are perhaps getting better over the years).
Churches in the United States thus dump lots of warring evangelists
into nations that already have established Christian worship, and then
the evangelists that come into such places are expected to gain
following in order to have something to show for all the money that
was invested into them. Overall, as a result some places like perhaps
the one that you live in have competing Christian groups programming a
set of people one way only to find that their enemies program a set of
people another way, and as a result the same people get programmed so
many times in so many different ways that people do not know what to
believe (when people do not know what to believe then religious
freedom becomes the banner of everyone’s faith for the most part like
in the United States).
I am confident that some regions of Africa have little to no
Christianity as a result of isolation such as is the case with the
rain forest tribes and perhaps strong Muslim nations along with some
incredibly war torn places, but when a person in the United States
approaches another person for money for evangelism both the evangelist
and the money giver often know so little about the world that they
both think Africa and then think rain forest voodoo tribe in desperate
need of evangelism. I have learned from my studies with my Bachelor
of Arts degree in Economics that African people prior to European
involvement did not have the problems with predatory governments that
they have today because not only is Africa rich in natural resources,
but African society did not need to rely upon innovation as much as
Europe did as a result of having an over abundance of resources.
Overall, the main understanding that many professional Economists have
is that many European governments inhabited Africa because of its
natural resources, and then the governments often turned people
against each other with corrupt justice in order to harvest the
natural resources without having to pay anything back to the citizens.
After the European nations exited Africa as a result of World War II,
African nations continued to have predatory governments that latter
became run more by business interests or war groups (some become
upright civilized nations so to speak). My point in all of this is
that yes Africa needs a lot of Christianity, but then again so to does
North America. I have no hesitations in believing that Satan laughs
about how easily he can puff people up with so much pride as to fight
each other in such a way that the God of religious freedom takes
center stage in everyone’s life.
May the god of religious freedom that has noting to do with scripture
be eternally condemned, and I say this not to promote just another
oppressive system of ungodly justice either in church or in government
but I say this because their is only one law and one judge that
everyone will answer to. As a Christian thus we can either pursue our
ideas of justice and make everything in our life our servant of our
pleasures such that like Judas we hand Jesus over for money and then
crucify ourselves in a shameful way, or we can pursue God’s ideal of
justice and make everything in our lives a servant of our God such
that like all the martyrs we become crucified with Christ. Overall,
we should not take dominion over things that God has not entrusted us
with, but on the other hand when God has entrusted us with something
we need to both serve him and it in order to find its proper place in
the kingdom of God as an administrator of divine justice.
Jesus Christ summarizes the law as firstly loving God with all of our
heart, mind, soul, and strength and secondly doing unto others as we
would have them do unto us. The love of God thus becomes the divine
law that the moral law (the love of man) overflows into, and as a
result we in some way enter into son-ship simply by judging between
the messengers of light and the messengers of Satan simply by loving
God and thus focusing our attention on one set of spirits as opposed
to the other (this is how divine justice is served). In our endeavors
to serve God in divine justice we must also seek to serve others in
such a way that they too can enter into the same judicial authority
and have communion with us. Overall, what I am talking about may
appear very strange to most of you, but I would like to remind
everyone that we need not and should not fight with Satan and his
associated spirits but instead we should be prayerful and draw closer
to God when our judicial authority to administer divine justice
becomes violated by greater powers or becomes powerless.
We thus become a kingdom of priests making intercession of one another
through the special grace of the blood of the lamb giving us the
charity of our talents as the body of Christ to invest into other
members of the body, and we become like kings in that we can
administer divine justice as well as moral law. What makes us very
unique is that we take a prophetic role when we are crucified with
Christ and when our lives become icons that point and connect to him
because Christ shines through us. We thus in order to bring the
gospel to people have to have Christ born into our lives, we have to
be crucified with Christ, and we need to be risen with him to heavenly
places such that we dwell together with the saints in joyful assembly.
I have come to the conclusion that we can do nothing to be saved
because salvation is impossible with man, but all things are possible
with God. Faith is not something that we make or are born with and we
cannot be told a falsehood and then with wishful thinking and constant
efforts force ourselves to believe and thus change the truth because
real faith comes from God and from God alone and this faith is given
out by God as his charity for those that detest those things that God
also detests. Overall, we thus are saved by faith because real faith
produces correct works, but we can measure those works by the law of
Moses (in the spirit of the law) and determine correct faith by
measuring works by the law.
For example if a person professes to be a born again Christian but
then also they profess homosexual freedom, leaving nothing for the
poor, high penalties given from them for violations of their own
tangible goods, low penalties given from them for violations of divine
law, and other such things then that person either does not have the
true faith or that person is a far way away from growing into the
correct faith. In the United States for example if a person steels a
car from someone, then that person will go to prison for a long time
(unlike Ancient Hebrew law that requires four times the amount of the
stolen item to be repaid), and if a person steels even the smallest
item from a store the same sort of problem exists as well with the
exception that jail time would be much less. In the United States
however people could openly slander God, burn crosses, and do other
such incredible things while absolutely no legal penalty of any kind
would be administered by government (this is just the opposite of
Ancient Hebrew law). Overall, my point is that the law of Moses
offers us a lot of protection, but we should not look at it so
superficially as to either do the works of the law on the surface
(such as circumcision) or entirely ignore it by saying that it does
not relate to us because Christ fulfilled the law.
If Christ fulfilled the law, then that means that the law was written
about him, and if the law was written about Christ, then when we at
least continue on in the sprit of the law, then we continue on in the
testimony of Jesus Christ. People that are born again outside of the
spirit of the law as Sons of God are born into the spirit of
lawlessness, and that spirit is like that of the fallen angels that
are identified as Sons of God in Genesis that make things so bad that
the flood had to come in order to wipe away the evil. The more that
the body of Christ becomes divided so to speak the more that the
spirit of lawlessness results, and the Antichrist is considered to be
the lawless one. The more however that people join hands with each
other in ministry with little to no care for God and the divine law
the more that they become servants of Satan, and as a result we should
be very sharp to disagree when we do disagree on matters of doctrine
but we should not cause that disagreement to alienate us from our
enemies, if they are our enemies, but instead we should love and pray
for our enemies. Overall, my point in all of this is that your
example, Arial, of the things that you are talking about are things
that should never happen in Christian communion, but those things do
in fact happen with the true believer being forced out as people pay
big money to listen to someone tell them that they are saved as they
can live their lives however they choose to do so for the pursuit of
the desires that they feel in their hearts for what they want in their
lives.
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
Ariel
> Who are these guys you speak of? Shall I take a different approach? With
> regard to religion, you're either Cain or you're Abel. You either persecute
> Christ or you don't. You choose who you want to be. There isn't any in
> between.
> Know the Lord,
> Pete
The " spiritual councellors" I am talking about are people, after
doing a crashcourse in counceling, doing something they call:
deliverince and healing. Different ministries, diferent names for
this type of "counceling. I call them the "devilchasers". If they
can't find one, they invent one!
There is definitly a place for deliverance in this world, as long as
Jesus is doing it. But these guys are trouble - They were trying to
"deliver" me from every emotion I had, all being demons or evil
spirits according to them. When nothing happens after four hours the
head honcho declared that I proberly have the "spirit of the Anti-
christ "in me! Now all the small fry christians were afraid of me.
Needless to say, I was sidelined and end up leaving the church.
Now this was not some church hidden somewhere in the darkside of
town..
No,sir....I DONT like relogion with all its hidden psyco's calmly
killing souls while the concregation are singing and praising the
Lord!
I agree with you that after meeting Christ you are pushed for a
choice, can't get away from that one.But there is a third choice
(brother) - the way of Seth -Gen 4:25,26. Men started calling on God
by Name. But it is a choice and, yes there isn't any in between.
But, if you take Jesus out of religion, you get a system running on
the power of the human mind - very strong and quite powerful. All you
need is a strong leader or a exellent orator, and there you go!
Don't go that way,Pete. All we need to do is point people in the right
direction - the rest is up to God. That is why the Spirit of God is
dwelling in man.We are travellers and heralds. Those who
follow,follows and those who stay behind, stay.
It is not up to you and me
Mathew Enoch Mount
Yes, my bishop committed suicide as he could not deliver himself from
his own demon, and another bishop that I worked with communicated the
importance of how salvation depended upon him and his tremendous
authority as a overseer of other people while he eventually closed his
congregation and renounced his title of bishop to serve as a pastor of
a Presbyterian church in some far away state. My point in this is
that I spoke against the work of both bishops prior to them doing what
they did, and it did not stop them from doing what they did. I have
studied the scripture perhaps far more than most professional
ministers, but people like those that you are talking about would have
the attitude that I would need some deliverance counseling like what
you are talking about because they most likely would disagree with me
over some stupid issues and would see themselves as divine authorities
set in place by God to go nuts on me.
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
Peter VanGee
The " spiritual councellors" I am talking about are people, after
> Who are these guys you speak of? Shall I take a different approach? With
> regard to religion, you're either Cain or you're Abel. You either persecute
> Christ or you don't. You choose who you want to be. There isn't any in
> between.
> Know the Lord,
> Pete
doing a crashcourse in counceling, doing something they call:
deliverince and healing. Different ministries, diferent names for
this type of "counceling. I call them the "devilchasers". If they
can't find one, they invent one!
I agree with you that after meeting Christ you are pushed for a
choice, can't get away from that one.But there is a third choice
(brother) - the way of Seth -Gen 4:25,26. Men started calling on God
by Name.
But it is a choice and, yes there isn't any in between.
But, if you take Jesus out of religion, you get a system running on
the power of the human mind - very strong and quite powerful.
Dwight Welch
Given how amazingly religious the US has been as opposed to those places which have one predominate denomination or religious body in place, it strikes me that it is our religious diversity which makes the US a hospitable place for Christian faith over places such as Europe, etc. A lot has been written on this thesis and I think it still holds.
I would go back to Locke to argue that coercion can only produce outward adherence not an inward one. And to Mill who argues that coercion assumes our infallibility (which because we are not God, we do not have). But in the end ought to oppose religious coercion because it makes the stakes so high with religious conflict that war is more often the result whether it was Europe's 100 year war to what's going on in Nigeria instead.
That has not been generally how things have gone in the US. Instead our nation has had over a century or more of Christian denominations working together (the NCC, WCC, local and state ecumenical associations) and in the last 50 years or so, increasing amounts of interfaith cooperation and dialog. That too would be gone if religious coercion was in place.
Someday I'll have a discussion on why I believe that gay and lesbians should be welcomed into the full life and ministry of the church..but not today. I only raise that issue because it's come up quit a bit and I remain a lurker on this list more often then not. I'm just highlighting a religious difference which exists on this list serv even if I don't always have time to respond or engage on this or other issues.
Regards,
Dwight
Mathew Enoch Mount
First of all I would like everyone to know that despite the fact that
I disagree with Dwight Welch as a result of his views regarding
diversity in regard to homosexual and lesbian people I must
nevertheless inform everyone that Dwight is working on his Doctrine at
a Seminary as he has taught college courses, obtained several graduate
degrees, and even run for President of the United State on a third
party ticket. Dwight is a very intelligent person despite what we
might think of his views, and I certainly would like to give full
respect to his many qualifications even though I am very much opposed
to the views of diversity that many people embrace that teach that we
are to openly embrace homosexuals and lesbians in every element of our
lives. Overall, I will attempt to summarize my understanding of the
problems that the scripture has with administering God’s special grace
to people that are openly homosexual and lesbian, and if Dwight or
anyone else would like to respond at a latter time, then feel free to
do so.
First of all my understanding is that all sinners are being set apart
for being destroyed, and sin itself is described as the falling short
of the keeping of the entire law in its fullness. Some people really
would like to please God and love God, and those people hate sin
because they know that sin is what alienates them from God. For
people that hate sin Christ who has kept the law by being the
fulfillment of the law can put his righteousness into us and give us a
new nature so that the new nature may grow in order that we may not
fall short in the end.
The problem with openly homosexual and lesbian ministry is that when
people that are openly offenders of crimes that are so sinful as to
bring a death penalty (under the law of Moses) who also publicly
perform ministry not only become set apart for destruction but also
become set apart for eternal destruction. When the head of the body
is set apart for eternal destruction, then how much more are its
members? Overall, if homosexual and lesbian people had been members
of a church and struggled with these sins, then people should either
help those that are struggling or people should stand back and allow
Christ to work in those people to conquer such sins like any other
sin.
The problem with being openly in favor of murder and being openly
Christian as well as being openly a minister is that such a thing
testifies that Christ is in favor of murder because his followers
would also thus in this case be in favor of murder. Christ is not in
favor of murder because we know that murder is a offense punishable by
death, and we know that Christ fulfilled the law. Overall, if someone
is a murderer and a professing Christian, then if that person is a
real Christian then they will hate the fact that they are murderers
while eagerly desiring deliverance.
Everyone that hates sin and desires deliverance I believe will receive
deliverance in the end. This is why those that are members of the
church that engage in sin and promote sin in the case of capital
punishment types of sin should be handed over to Satan in order that
the flesh may be destroyed and the soul may be saved. When people
love their wicked ways and are handed over to Satan, then people
hopefully will learn to hate their wicked ways and ask for
forgiveness. My point is that if people are openly homosexual or
lesbian and are members of a church, then the best outcome for them
and for the church is for them to be handed over to Satan in order
that their souls may be saved while their flesh is destroyed.
Our civil laws in many nations do not even come close to granting
justice, and justice I can attest does not enter into the decision
making of most government laws today. Divine Command teaches us to
love God with all of our heart, mind, soul, and strength as this is
the most important commandment of the entire law of Moses. Since
secular governments have emerged that have removed the love of God
from the law of the land, thus the entire system of most secular
governments is entirely unjust because their laws do not originate
from the most important law. Overall, this means that churches are
put in the authority of administering God’s justices, and if they do
not are care not to administer God’s justice, then they like
everything else that is in the spirit of lawlessness will be set apart
for eternal destruction.
Having said all of this I would like to encourage all of you to not
find opportunities to administer justice, but instead when you see a
capital offender being expressive of his capital offense and proud of
it, then you have the legal responsibility to make justice happen by
either handing that person over to Satan or giving that person over to
someone else who can hand that person over to Satan. If a person is a
capital offender and not a Christian or does not attend Church, then
you cannot hand that person over to Satan because you should instead
be evangelizing that person. Overall, if you attend a local
congregation that has a minister that is openly homosexual or lesbian
and proud of it, then do not hesitate to hand that person over to
Satan yourself in personal confrontation if they do not repent (this
will cause the demons to torment that person until they repent or
parish in hell).
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
On Jan 4, 7:34 pm, Dwight Welch <serve...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Just a brief response.
>
> Given how amazingly religious the US has been as opposed to those places
> which have one predominate denomination or religious body in place, it
> strikes me that it *is* our religious diversity which makes the US a
> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
Peter VanGee
Just a brief response.
Given how amazingly religious the US has been as opposed to those places which have one predominate denomination or religious body in place, it strikes me that it is our religious diversity which makes the US a hospitable place for Christian faith over places such as Europe, etc. A lot has been written on this thesis and I think it still holds.
I would go back to Locke to argue that coercion can only produce outward adherence not an inward one. And to Mill who argues that coercion assumes our infallibility (which because we are not God, we do not have). But in the end ought to oppose religious coercion because it makes the stakes so high with religious conflict that war is more often the result whether it was Europe's 100 year war to what's going on in Nigeria instead.
That has not been generally how things have gone in the US. Instead our nation has had over a century or more of Christian denominations working together (the NCC, WCC, local and state ecumenical associations) and in the last 50 years or so, increasing amounts of interfaith cooperation and dialog. That too would be gone if religious coercion was in place.
cont...@joeaponteonline.com
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [SPAM] Re: Christianity - Going, going, GONE
From: Dwight Welch <serv...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, January 04, 2010 8:34 pm
To: jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
Just a brief response.
Given how amazingly religious the US has been as opposed to those places which have one predominate denomination or religious body in place, it strikes me that it is our religious diversity which makes the US a hospitable place for Christian faith over places such as Europe, etc. A lot has been written on this thesis and I think it still holds.
I would go back to Locke to argue that coercion can only produce outward adherence not an inward one. And to Mill who argues that coercion assumes our infallibility (which because we are not God, we do not have). But in the end ought to oppose religious coercion because it makes the stakes so high with religious conflict that war is more often the result whether it was Europe's 100 year war to what's going on in Nigeria instead.
That has not been generally how things have gone in the US. Instead our nation has had over a century or more of Christian denominations working together (the NCC, WCC, local and state ecumenical associations) and in the last 50 years or so, increasing amounts of interfaith cooperation and dialog. That too would be gone if religious coercion was in place.
Peter VanGee
Mathew Enoch Mount
First of all I would like to know who marked this thread as Spam as
this conversation is perhaps one of the most important that has ever
existed on this news group, and second of all Jesus summarizes the
greatest commandment as loving God with all of your heart, mind, soul,
and strength as this indicates not just thinking about God or having a
awareness of God but instead having a emotional response to God that
stimulates action. Even Satan himself has an awareness of both the
Father and the Son as he according to scripture interacts with God
like in the case of Job, and even Judas was one of the twelve before
Satan entered him and thus before he went to his own destruction.
Overall, anyone that is openly for homosexuality or lesbianism is
either ignorant of God’s ways or that person is plain against God’s
ways because the scripture is plainly clear about such things being a
sin.
For all of those that believe that Jesus is only for sunshine and
lollipops consider the following quote, "To the angel of the church in
Thyatira write: These are the words of the Son of God, whose eyes are
like blazing fire and whose feet are like burnished bronze. I know
your deeds, your love and faith, your service and perseverance, and
that you are now doing more than you did at first. Nevertheless, I
have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls
herself a prophetess. By her teaching she misleads my servants into
sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols. I have
given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. So
I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who
commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her
ways. I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will
know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each
of you according to your deeds." Revelation 2:18-23 (NIV) That is
correct, Christ is bold enough that he will strike a person’s own
children dead as a punishment for sexual immorality, and even the
first born son of David by Bathsheba was struck dead by God despite
the favor that God had for David.
If a openly homosexual or lesbian minister that promotes the sin has
children, then Christ has absolutely no problem at all with striking
that person’s children dead. Within the context of Revelation chapter
two, we even find that Christ has something against the entire church
at Thyatira for tolerating the woman Jezebel, so how much more will
Christ have against a church that openly embraces a openly homosexual
or lesbian minister? Not only that but we know that Christ gives the
resolution in Revelation chapter two regarding Jezebel that he will
not only cast her on a bed of suffering, kill her children, but he
will also cause those that commit adultery with her to suffer
intensely.
Today if a person does not rebuke a openly homosexual or lesbian
person that calls themselves a Christian that promotes the sin, then
not only will the church suffer but also God may take action that
could be prevented through repentance. If people do not hand openly
homosexual and lesbian believers that promote the sin over to Satan,
then not only will the entire church suffer but God himself may just
start striking people dead. Overall, we should pray for those that
struggle with sins and we should offer help and our genuine care when
appropriate, but if believers promote homosexuality or lesbianism then
we need to take action that most likely will involve God’s justice
being administered through the handing over of a believer to Satan.
I need to clarify at this point that according to my understanding of
the New Testament we should not take any action at all against people
that commit sins that struggle with sins and that desire not to be
sinful, but we must take action against all of those that consider
themselves believers that promote sin especially in the case of sins
that are punishable by capital punishment. If a believer promotes the
sin of steeling like in the case of theft from a store, then we know
according to the law of Moses that such a offense is a crime that is
punishable by just having to pay back four times as much and as a
result we should not punish such an offense with a much more stronger
punishment than what the law requires. If however a believer is
openly homosexual, lesbian, murder, idolater, or a witch, then if that
person promotes any of those things and is a believer than that person
needs to be handed over to Satan in order to render the best possible
outcome.
I am confident that if anyone administers God’s justice correctly as I
am describing without hostility, anger, or malice, then the act of
handing a person over to Satan as a result of the offender being a
promoter of sin and openly in favor of capital crimes will be blessed
by God as a result of having administered God’s justice correctly. If
you hand a believer that is openly homosexual or lesbian and proud of
it over to Satan, then you will in the long run be very glad that you
did. Overall, people that have been handed over to Satan as a result
of justice being administered correctly, if they repent, will even be
glad that they had been handed over to Satan.
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
Dwight Welch
I think in the case of religious pluralism, I had a chance to visit Norway and I attended a Lutheran church while I was there. Beautiful service but sparsely attended. I think church attendance in the country is at 2-3%. In the US it's around 45% I believe...maybe a bit less. But they have a state church in Norway. We have no such thing. That's why our religious diversity and our first amendment I gather has been an important ingedient in Christianity's vitality in the US. The question of coercion was not what the US church does today but what I think Matthew and others may wish for it to do in the future.
As for the GLBT issue. I don't think I'll be in a position to convince folks otherwise on the issue. I just wanted to indicate that the group did not have unanimity on the issue. I look to the fruits of relationships; are they marked by love, self sacrafice, care, growing the other person. IF they are, I assume that like all good things come from God. Regardless of the genders involved. And I think a fruits based understanding is a significant piece on how we interpret the relevant Biblical passages on this and other issues. At the same time, I think there is just a concrete good had given how rare love can be in our society that the church seeks to strengthen our relations with each other and honors it. Whether it's called marriage or friendship or something else, let the church be involved in blessing the coming together of people imho.
Dwight
ON EARTH Ministries
LIVE FOREVER!
Peace, and All Good Things,
Brother Larry Roy Woodsmall
ON EARTH MINISTRIES
ON EARTH Ministries
" For all of those that believe that Jesus is only for sunshine and lollipops…" Don't forget 'rainbows'! Us Hell-bound Gay-lovers are particularly fond of rainbows! You are starting to sound like the television. No more FOX network for you! It sounds like that condescending twerp Glen Beck. (This is an attempt at humor)
On a more serious note:
The phrase "promoting openly homosexual…" seems to be problematic, and there are a few others. I'm not a "promoter" of "openly homosexual" anything, or for that matter, any "openly sexual" behaviors, acts, organizations, groups, or individuals, nor do the vast majority of the people I know that you might call "homosexual". There seems to be this common misconception that the reality of being a homosexual is synonymous with the behaviors exhibited in a 30 second TV news clip of a "Gay Pride Parade" in San Francisco, or by a character actor's portrayal in a sitcom. Most I know are quiet, intelligent, thoughtful, and very private people who react to these images not unlike my Afro-American friends react to black-face comedy clips from the 30s. These are no more reprehensive of our Father's love ones than those raving, hateful people with giant pictures of little dead baby fetuses who scream at confused young women outside of clinics.
I know you are aware of the difference between sin and sinner.
That having been said, if we are going to take it upon ourselves to be line-drawers, where does that line get drawn? Holding hands, embracing, and kissing? I think these are all good things for all humans, and should be done a lot more. I get the impression the that the Apostle Paul also thought so. Isn't that how we as Christians are to greet each other?
Women wearing pants and short hair? Men wearing long hair and robes? I think you know where I am going with this one…
Why don’t you just come out and say that you are concerned about what they do in private to each other? Admit that the problem isn't love and affection. It's all of that sodomy and oral sex, isn't it?
Well, I have to suggest that you stay out of their bedrooms, physically, mentally, and spiritually. It's just not good for you.
And if you will allow, I hope you don’t REALLY think that our purpose as Christians is to stand in the book of Revelations, at the gates of hell, and foist fags into the flames, even if we do it for the "right reasons". that smacks of circumstantial ethics, and is too much like throwing folks to the lions… You've heard about that, right?
Let's try to remember we are here to pass on GOOD NEWS for everybody.
13"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.
- Matthew 23:13
4…"Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 6They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.
But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." 8Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"
11"No one, sir," she said.
"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."
- John 8:4-11
23Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.
- Galatians 3:23-25
1Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted. 2Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ.
- Galatians 6:1-2
1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
- Matthew 7:1-5
Prayer For a Friend
Lord, I lift my friend to You, I've done all that I know to do
I lift my friend to You
Complicated circumstances have clouded his view
Lord, I lift my friend up to You
I fear that I won't have the words that he needs to hear
I pray for Your wisdom, oh God, and a heart that's sincere
Lord, I lift my friend up to You
Lord, I lift my friend to You
My best friend in the world, I know he means much more to You
I want so much to help him, but this is something he has to do
And Lord, I lift my friend up to You
'cause there's a way that seems so right to him
But You know where that leads
He's becoming a puppet of the world, too blind to see the strings
Lord, I lift my friend up to You
My friend up to You
Lord, I lift my friend to You, I've done all that I know to do
I lift my friend to You
- Casting Crows
Mathew Enoch Mount
You are not to blame Larry regarding marking the post as Spam.
Someone that is not a moderator did this to us out of spite. You need
not worry Larry about us firing you because I have had people spit in
my face and kick my in the groin for hours every day after school for
years and I would forgive anyone of them if they asked for forgiveness
today. Having said that I am extremely tolerant, but sometimes
handing people over to Satan is just simply our duty. Many times we
are called thus to act in this way even if we have noting to gain
personally and everything to give up.
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
On Jan 6, 12:12 pm, ON EARTH Ministries
Mathew Enoch Mount
I am not in anyway homosexual or lesbian, so I do not understand the
specific problems that exist for such people. I however was an
atheist for many years, and that is a far worse sin because it totally
alienates a person from God (I do not in any way promote atheism).
From my experience as an atheist I can understand the utter emptiness
that is felt by such people as they look to things in this world in
order to fill that emptiness such as food, clothing, and other such
material possessions. Some atheist people even develop a
philosophical system that explains away the existence of God while
embracing the idea that human nature is overall good and that thus
they themselves are good.
If God did not have a problem with homosexuality, then I would not
have a problem with homosexuality and I would even say that even
though it is not a lifestyle for me I would support it. In fact when
I was younger and an atheist I was taught in heath class that no
psychological problems existed with homosexuality and that it was
perfectly nature and thus normal and moral, and I as a atheist
believed this. Overall, because I was one of just a few students that
believed my atheist health instructor thus many people beat me to the
ground on various occasions as they thought that I was homosexual even
through I was not.
Several reasons exist for why homosexuality is a sin. First of all
men and women are designed to mate, and we know this because one man
and one woman can produce a child. A homosexual or lesbian couple can
never naturally produce a child, and thus their union can never be
fruitful. Not only is homosexuality and lesbianism unfruitful, but it
also usually involves people having multiple partners even if they
want to have only one partner at first.
I have been sort of blind to people’s sins, and I did not realize that
many of my friends had been homosexual or lesbian (or other such
thing) until I discovered this in later years. Many of the people
that I cared about in my own local hometown had all been homosexual or
lesbian (and other such things). I hate to think of handing these
people over to Satan, but on the other hand if any of those people
became believers that openly promoted the lifestyle such as in the
case of being as proud of their lifestyle as to promote it to others,
then I would out of obedience to my understanding of scripture have to
hand those people over to Satan.
At SIUC my dormitory roommate was atheist, and because he disliked my
promotion of Christianity in my window facing the commons aria thus he
posed a full sized picture of two highly attractive women dressed with
almost nothing while kissing each other in bed in a supposedly
‘romantic pose.’ My roommate would go crazy when I would talk about
the gospel to him in any way, and he went crazy even when I said
nothing as he would start screaming at me about the so called ‘truth
of evolution’ just out of the blue. Overall, the fact that I dressed
in my full clerical uniform did not help matters either as he often
found himself sleeping in his car about five blocks away out of his
own preferences.
One day my roommate was awake for a few days, and he was so much in a
delusion that as I was sleeping he asked me what happened to the
little black kid that was sitting on back using his cell phone while I
was laying in bed. I really wanted to help my roommate by brining the
truth of the gospel to him, but he did not want to hear about what I
had to say. Overall, the man did not and perhaps still does not
believe in Jesus Christ, but if my roommate did believe in Jesus
Christ, attended my congregation, and did all these things, then I
would have to hand him over to Satan no matter how much I wanted the
scripture to get through to him.
The most fundamental purpose of the Church in one way or another is to
promote righteousness in one way or anther, but if the church promotes
sin instead, then they are not promoting righteousness. If a person
promotes murder, homosexuality, lesbianism, adultery, fornication, and
other such thing publicly, then those people are promoting not just
sin but sins that would separate a person from entering into heaven.
Overall, people can very easily be for sin, but being for
righteousness is very hard for a person because it does not come
naturally unless a person has the new nature.
Christ was about deliverance from sin and still is for deliverance
from sin, but Christ was never for calling sin righteousness. Today
churches often do not call a sin a sin, but instead such places will
basically pat everyone on the back for living in a state of peace.
Yet Christ even came out and said that he did not come to bring peace
but the sward.
Let us now consider the full text of 1 Corinthians 5
"It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you,
and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his
father's wife. And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been
filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did
this? Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in
spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this,
just as if I were present. When you are assembled in the name of our
Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord
Jesus is present, hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful
nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.
Your boasting is not good. Don't you know that a little yeast works
through the whole batch of dough? Get rid of the old yeast that you
may be a new batch without yeast—as you really are. For Christ, our
Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. Therefore let us keep the
Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness,
but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth. I
have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral
people— not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral,
or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would
have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not
associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually
immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a
swindler. With such a man do not even eat. What business is it of
mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those
inside? God will judge those outside. ‘Expel the wicked man from
among you.’" (NIV)
What we learn from 1 Corinthians 5 is that unlike the case that
involved Jews getting together and finding a woman that was in the act
of adultery instead Saint Paul is talking about a situation such that
someone is proud of the fact that he has married his father’s wife and
the message has really gotten around. In this example Saint Paul
tells people to hand that man over to Satan. Overall, the believers
could have just put the man out of fellowship instead of handing the
man over to Satan if the offense had not been as integrated into the
church.
1 Corinthians 5 tells us to get rid of the old yeast (or the old
teachings), and we are to be a new batch without yeast to produce the
bread of sincerity and truth. The point to be made is that Saint Paul
is indicating that those that practice sexual immorality and other
such things are not being truthful or do not have sincerity. Overall,
my point is that scripture is very firm about these kinds of issues.
Today the problem that many face is that they would like to go to
church, but many people cannot go to church because of their sins
alienating them from church. The church thus is not a place for only
righteous people that never have struggles with sins, but instead it
is a place for people to work our their salvation in order to overcome
their sins. Overall, my best policy thus is, "do not ask, and do not
tell" in regard to sins, but when you do ask you need to be asking for
deliverance instead of for indulgence, and when you tell you should be
telling about how God has overcome the sins in your life instead of
telling about how you enjoy sin and how ‘wonderful’ sin is.
The fact that Rome for the most part became the only church that still
continues to this day without having at some time been completely
triumphed in its authority tells us a lot about the faith. The faith
of Rome that made is great was not that Christ was righteous and kept
the law so that we do not have to be righteous, but instead the faith
of Rome was for the Christian to hold to the gospel to the extent of
being put to death. Anyone that would hold to the gospel to the
extent as to be put to death would have to give up all their sins in
order to be crucified with Christ.
Sins hold us back from doing what we as Christians should be doing.
The more free that we are of sins the more crucified that we will
become as the world rejects us for the fact that we tell it that what
it is doing is something wrong. Overall, the Christian then becomes
crucified out of love for God, and as a result many believe.
The difference between the death of some that go to death while
holding to their own beliefs firmly and the death of the Christian is
that the Christian does not go to the cross to prove himself correct
in the midst of the rest of the world, but instead the Christian goes
to the cross because he cannot help but love God in a world that hates
God. The more that we become freed from sin the more that we love
God, and the more that we love God the more that the world that loves
sin hates us. Overall, I hate the sin of homosexuality or lesbianism,
but I do not hate the sinner necessarily.
In regard to a national church I realize that shortcomings can exist,
but on the other hand ideally if a truthful national church existed
that held firm to scripture people would not be as condemned for
having done a righteous work. In secular nations the more wicked that
a person is the more opportunities that a person has in my
understanding. A nation that has the type of national church that I
am talking about ideally could have firm Christian people that operate
even the highest levels of government while being expressive of their
faith while having depth to their faith.
In a secular nation that has many divided churches getting things done
that are holy is near impossible, and the churches are so divided that
many would think that Christ has come to his end like in the case of
the house that is divided against itself. The reason why Christ has
not come to his end is because the church is something completely
different from denomination. Overall, today many Christians exist
everywhere that can recognize each other by the power of God working
in their lives, but most people of most denominations cannot recognize
each other as belonging to the same family.
In the United State if ten times as many people attend church than in
a orthodox nation while 9 out of 10 people in the United State that
attend church are openly for sin while everyone at the orthodox nation
would be opposed to sin, then true Christian participation between
nations would be very similar in numbers. I use this as an example,
and I know that orthodox people have problems just like everyone
else. Overall, an economist that I knew made the case that since
people have religious freedom (so to speak) in the United States thus
as a result more churches exist and as a result more competition
between the churches and as a result more ease is placed upon being a
Christian in the United States as opposed to Europe.
One pastor that I know said that ministers that he knew would often
ask how they could get more attendance, and the man said that if you
would like your church to get a lot of attendance, then all you need
to do is put up a sign that says, "Free Bear." If we define a
Christian as someone that believes in God and in Jesus, then perhaps
according to this definition even Satan himself would be saved.
Overall, almost everyone that really knows the scripture, knows God,
and is saved has said that even though such a vast amount of people
say that they believe in Jesus Christ and perhaps even go to church
their faith, understanding, and often fruits are paper thin.
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
Peter VanGee
Let's try to remember we are here to pass on GOOD NEWS for everybody.
Mathew Enoch Mount
In response to your comment Peter about Saint Paul displaying archaic
morality consider the following scripture,
"I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for
the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for
the Gentile. For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed,
a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is
written: "The righteous will live by faith." The wrath of God is
being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness
of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be
known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to
them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—
his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being
understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave
thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish
hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became
fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to
look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. Therefore
God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual
impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They
exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created
things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. Because
of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women
exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the
men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with
lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and
received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the
knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what
ought not to be done."
Romans 1:16-28 (NIV)
I find that in many ways Saint Paul is talking in Romans 1:16-28 about
what happened prior to the flood several thousand years prior to his
time. Consider how Romans 1:16-28 matches with Genesis 6:1-8 as
follows.
"When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were
born to them, the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were
beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. Then the LORD
said, "My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal;
his days will be a hundred and twenty years." The Nephilim were on
the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went
to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the
heroes of old, men of renown. The LORD saw how great man's wickedness
on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of
his heart was only evil all the time. The LORD was grieved that he
had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. So the
LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of
the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground,
and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them." But
Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD."
Genesis 6:1-8 (NIV)
The point is that the Sons of God (the fallen angelic beings) that had
been put in place to administer justice and grace chased after the
daughters of men, and the union of the fallen angelic beings and the
women produced the Nephilim (or the dammed). Every sort of wickedness
increased because not only did the angelic beings break communion with
God, but also women and men broke communion as well through the fallen
angelic beings teaching their ways to mankind. Overall, the flood had
to come to wipe everyone away except for Noah and his family, and Noah
and his family had been the only ones that retained the knowledge of
God, his teachings (blood atonement as seen from the sacrifice that
Noah gave when he existed the ark), and communion with God.
Now let us look more carefully at how Saint Paul continues with the
book of Romans,
"They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed
and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and
malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant
and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their
parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although
they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve
death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve
of those who practice them."
Romans 1:29-32 (NIV)
Notice that Saint Paul is indicating at this point in Romans 1:29-32
that the very same things that occurred during the flood had been
happening at his time, and we know this because Saint Paul switched
from the past tense suddenly to the present tense. Let us also
consider what Saint Paul has to say in the next chapter as he
continues.
"You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone
else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning
yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. Now we
know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on
truth. So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the
same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment? Or do you
show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience,
not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance? But
because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are
storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his
righteous judgment will be revealed. God "will give to each person
according to what he has done." To those who by persistence in doing
good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow
evil, there will be wrath and anger."
Romans 2:1-8 (NIV)
Notice that like Genesis with the flood Saint Paul continues his
teaching by showing how the entire world will again be destroyed. God
talks about the world destruction as being the day of God’s wrath when
his righteous judgment will be revealed. Overall, the point is that
Saint Paul indicates that people are given time to repent before God’s
day of wrath, and we should not therefore pass judgment upon people in
general that are held captive in all sorts of wickedness because by
judging them we judge ourselves (we should perhaps pray and hope that
these people come to salvation).
The problem is that the Church is to be set apart from wickedness.
When evil not only lurks in the pews but also is proclaimed as
righteousness by the members, then the church has become a Synagogue
of Satan. Church leaders have to protect the flock as shepherds at
the risk of even their own lives and everything that they have (this
is their job) in order to keep the wolves at bay from devouring the
sheep. The church leader thus should not be thinking, "Joe is
homosexual and I do not like him because he gives very little to
offertory, so I will hand Joe over to Satan because he is homosexual",
and church leaders also should not be thinking, "Joe appears to be a
really nice person ever through he openly professes homosexuality, and
because he is so wealthy and gives so much thus we will overlook the
situation." Church leaders instead should see clearly that despite
the situation that if a person openly endorses homosexuality that the
church leader needs to be willing to sacrifice everything in order to
get the person to stop promoting the sin, or the church leader needs
to be willing to sacrifice everything for his congregation in order to
hand the person over to Satan that needs to be handed over.
Having said all of this people that have the problems with sin that
are spoken about by Saint Paul that bring God’s wrath and justice
would benefit from praying to God for the sin to go away. Such people
should keep in mind that Christ is able to help everyone that
struggles with sin because even he himself was tempted by the devil in
the wilderness. Not only that but also God can change our evil
desires into productivity for righteousness sake by replacing those
things in our lives that are not part of God’s will with those things
in our lives that are part of God’s will.
How does God replace those things that are not part of his will that
people do with things are part of his will? God does this by giving
his servants talents that they can invest in each other, and when
people invest those talents in each other as a kingdom of priests they
make intercession for each other in such a way that the body of Christ
develops as people become more and more encompassed by God’s special
will. Places thus that have very cold people that are very alienated
from one another have big problems with sin in the background, but
places that are very loving to one another and very super family like
are places that much righteousness dwells.
The big problem with sin is that it alienates us both from each other
and from God. By people, "putting aside their differences" sin does
not go away, but instead people become increasingly alienated from
each other and God. Today many institutions exist that attempt to
alienate people from each other or to keep people alienated in order
that the people in charge can rule by division among their subjects,
and this is just one reason why sin is so very dangerous because it
alienates people from each other in such a way as to set up
institutional heads that are servants of Satan (this is a shadow of
what is meant by "he handed them over to a depraved mind").
Perhaps the simplest way to be a leader in the world is to endorse sin
while appearing righteous through humanitarian ideals, utterly
denounce anyone expressing a love for God while legalizing this away
through laws that attempt to serve everyone’s pleasures, and force
people into situations that would involve their holy character being
compromised in exchange for compensation that would feed a person’s
family.
For example the more that evolution becomes the template for all
organizations the more that people are put in situations that they
must fight each other for survival. The more that people fight each
other for survival and win the more that people are rewarded by the
system, and those rewards become gains that are used to satisfy the
sinful pleasures while the people at the very bottom of the system are
given just enough food to eat. The hungry are set against each other,
and the wealthy benefit from the competition of the poor as the
wealthy are so enslaved by their pleasures as to do anything to get
those pleasures including selling their very soul.
The rich are enslaved by the worldly passions of obtaining greater and
greater things in order to bring happiness, but when they obtain those
things it only makes them more and more empty inside. The poor are
enslaved to fight each other for the very bread that they eat, and
when they get it they are enslaved by sin through the division between
themselves as a result of having been alienated from each other.
Overall, an entire system thus emerges that attempts to make everyone
accountable to the antichrist.
The division between churches and religious freedom contribute to the
system of the antichrist often in more ways than I can count. People
read religious freedom to mean freedom form the rule of Christ either
knowingly or unknowingly, and thus religious freedom turns the public
view of Christ from being a Great King into being a Genie in a bottle
that grants wishes and desires. People rub that magic lantern for
Jesus to come out and they wish for everything their hearts desire,
and then people put the magic lantern away to go into the world in
order to excel in the system of the antichrist.
You might think that I am a bigoted uneducated man that has no idea
what I am talking about, but I have six college degrees total, I have
fully completed a paid extensive company Management Training program
that was intended to prepare me to be the person in charge of a
240,000 square foot store with sixty to one hundred and twenty
employees, and I have seen both wealth and poverty worked out in the
lives of many people (this gives me a view into the system of the
antichrist from personal experience). The sad part is that even if
the system of the antichrist could be completely destroyed in terms of
a worldly kingdom by completely eliminating all material possessions,
then I feel that the desires of the hearts of people would still be
opposed to God. Overall, God will only take so much before he
destroys the entire world and renders justice on all people.
In my experience the more holy that a person become the more eagerly
that the world wants to defile a person. For example if a person as a
youth does not smoke cigarettes, use illegal drugs, defy their
parents, and other such things then the entire group casts (often uses
violence as well) that person out because that person says that what
the group is doing is wrong just by the act of not participating, and
when the group has cast out everyone that does not fall into their
sins then they can proclaim to the world that they are righteous
because everyone does what they do according to their knowledge.
Overall, after the masses have realized that what they have done is
wrong and the emptiness that they feel inside become almost
unbearable, then they like the men of Sodom and Gomorra reduce the
righteous to little more than a loaf of bread that they may consume as
their sinful desires turn to obtaining righteousness through
attempting unholy union with it through anger, lust, and perversion.
Jesus was thus born into the world as the Righteous One, and thus we
could clearly see and understand righteousness as well as how to make
intercession and how to enter into God’s love as well as the love of
others through service. Jesus died on the cross as his blood shed in
order that through this act of self sacrifice we may be united to him
in suffering while rejected by the system of the antichrist. Jesus
arose from the dead so that after our long suffering as the body of
Christ thus we would arise with him, and thus Christ administers
justice in heaven over the entire earth.
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
Peter VanGee
Mathew Enoch Mount
Peter, I do not know of anyone that is more fervent for church stuff
while adamantly opposing the authority of scripture than you. This is
not a complement.
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
Peter VanGee
Mathew Enoch Mount
Also note Peter that the same sort of thing that happened in Sodom and
Gomorra also happened in Judges chapters 19-20. Thus in the context
Israel entered into a civil war with the Benjamite tribe to the extent
that the tribe was almost completely destroyed. The Israelites had
been very mournful that they had to destroy so many Benjamite
brethren, but on the other hand everyone knew that justice was
necessary and that God’s will had to be administered.
This subject is so unpopular that I have lost many members from the
news group, many have stopped posting suddenly, and even much of our
leadership has decided to not get as involved. I am not going to
change my understanding of the scripture to match popular views that
rest upon making the scripture into something that people like to
listen to because I find that I am compelled to proclaim the truth.
Even if God required me to go to the greatest extremes such as casting
out close family members that I have known all of my life, then I
would have to do that.
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
> > jesus-the-chri...@googlegroups.com<jesus-the-christ%2Bunsubscribe...@googlegroups.com>
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> > For more options, visit this group at
> > ===>
> >http://groups.google.com/group/jesus-the-christ?hl=en
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hide quoted text -
Peter VanGee
Also note Peter that the same sort of thing that happened in Sodom and
Gomorra also happened in Judges chapters 19-20. Thus in the context
Israel entered into a civil war with the Benjamite tribe to the extent
that the tribe was almost completely destroyed. The Israelites had
been very mournful that they had to destroy so many Benjamite
brethren, but on the other hand everyone knew that justice was
necessary and that God’s will had to be administered.
Interesting - does this support my case.
This subject is so unpopular that I have lost many members from the
news group, many have stopped posting suddenly, and even much of our
leadership has decided to not get as involved. I am not going to
change my understanding of the scripture to match popular views that
rest upon making the scripture into something that people like to
listen to because I find that I am compelled to proclaim the truth.
Even if God required me to go to the greatest extremes such as casting
out close family members that I have known all of my life, then I
would have to do that.
Stay with your argument til proven wrong, I only sought to give them a place to start. For my argument to work, they have to acknowledge that the serpent has been there screwing up teaching since the beginning. Remember my discussion about primate behavior, the heart of man is fickle - going from one extreme to the other. They only take the side of the 'sons of men' when they have to.
ARIEL
christianity in this form. The belief system must be concrete. It is
Yes or No. And that decision is one we as followers of Christ must
make.We cannot want to fit into the Huminist thinking of this age that
we live in. If we are not accepted by the worldly people -so be it. To
accomedate their lack of moral thinking will not make them accept our
Saviour.
We are different and I for one will never accept Homosexuality as
"normal" or something God doesn't care about. Same with abortion,
death penalty and isues like that.
It is not negotiable.(to me)
the bible says : "two cannot walk together unless thy agree about
it"(my own words).
I cannot agree to walk one step with liberal christianity.
> Pete- Hide quoted text -
Peter VanGee
----------------------------------------------------------------
Larry Roy Woodsmall §§§§ Freed from Monasticism
Evan L. Hale §§§§§§§§§§§ Thankful for Whiskey
Adam Colbert §§§§§§§§§§ Jesus look alike
Mathew Enoch Mount §§§§ Conservative
===>
Together we operate Jesus on the Web
----------------------------------------------------------------
You received this message because you are subscribed
To the Google Groups "Jesus On the Web" group.
To post to this group, send email to
===>
jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
----------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
===>
jesus-the-chri...@googlegroups.com
Mathew Enoch Mount
Amen Ariel. I find that Peter would be best not to try to justify his
sudden impulses as righteousness. If people find all of their sudden
impulses to be hallmarks of righteousness, then what would the world
be like? Overall, I am not at all liberal.
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
Peter VanGee
----------------------------------------------------------------
Larry Roy Woodsmall §§§§ Freed from Monasticism
Evan L. Hale §§§§§§§§§§§ Thankful for Whiskey
Adam Colbert §§§§§§§§§§ Jesus look alike
Mathew Enoch Mount §§§§ Conservative
===>
Together we operate Jesus on the Web
----------------------------------------------------------------
You received this message because you are subscribed
To the Google Groups "Jesus On the Web" group.
To post to this group, send email to
===>
jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
----------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
===>
jesus-the-chri...@googlegroups.com
Jan D
for God can't be tempted by evil, and he himself tempts no one.
But each one is tempted, when he is drawn away by his own lust, and
enticed. Then the lust, when it has conceived, bears sin; and the sin,
when it is full grown, brings forth death. Don't be deceived, my
beloved brothers.
This is one of the Golden Rules I live by - When I fail -I go back to
this scripture. The responsibility is mine - nobody else's.
Mathew Enoch Mount
Based upon your testimony Peter you make me glad that I do not attend
your church because if I did then I would find myself compelled to
cast out many demons. I certainly hope that not everyone in the Roman
Catholic Church shares your views. Consider the following text, "Some
Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name
of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon-possessed. They would
say, "In the name of Jesus, whom Paul preaches, I command you to come
out." Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this.
(One day) the evil spirit answered them, "Jesus I know, and I know
about Paul, but who are you?" Then the man who had the evil spirit
jumped on them and overpowered them all. He gave them such a beating
that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding." (Acts 19:13-16
NIV) The difference Peter between your story and that of the Seven
sons of Sceva is that your personal testimony about Saint Paul and me
is that you are identifying me with Saint Paul and rejecting them both
and you are not able to overpower me despite your best efforts.
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
On Jan 19, 8:36 am, Peter VanGee <petervan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all:
>
> There you go again, attacking me while avoiding the argument. You're
> *just*as stupid as St. Paul. No, I take that back...you've had how
> > jesus-the-chri...@googlegroups.com<jesus-the-christ%2Bunsubscribe...@googlegroups.com>
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> > For more options, visit this group at
> > ===>
> >http://groups.google.com/group/jesus-the-christ?hl=en
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hide quoted text -
Peter VanGee
Jan D
Hi all
No it is about CHOICE.
We as christians cannot leave God out of our choice making processes.
Actually we must compare our thinking process with the word and Will
of God BEFORE we finalise our choices.
We were taught that our natural man must die and christ must live in
us.Our carnalmind will be busy with things of the flesh,trying to push
the limits and rationalising God's intend and Will.
The Spirit of the child of God will avoid all grey areas were
transgretion is possible -out of love for God.
I don't want to jeopardize my relationship with God by exercising my
free will or humanrights.
Cynthia Mount
I am Mathew’s mom. I know that Mathew may have offended many of those
who support Gay rights. I understand his position on this subject. I
also understand that many of you have felt as if he has let the
Christian community down in a big way. I want you to know that I have
had many friends that I did not know were gay, but later found out
about their lifestyles through conversations with them. In fact we
have at least two in our own extended family. I find by talking to
them that if they could pick a different lifestyle for themselves they
would. There is a lot of hurt that they experience because of the
lifestyles that they chose. Some are turned away for help from church
groups due to their lifestyles, not to mention ridicule in public
places. I have met many gay people over my lifetime and even dated
one in college. Recently’ I attended a Funeral service of a gay man
that helped me with Government matters. I found many gay people to be
friendly without asking for anything in return, but some were not so
sincere and downright conniving. My point in all of this is, that
Mathew takes the scripture very seriously. I have to look at the
Human element and take into account that these people who are gay may
not want to feel like they have to pretend in order to satisfy our
definition of righteous people. If the only sin that a gay person
commits is that they are gay, does that give us the right to say that
we are better than them. Only God can judge them, and we have no
right to play God, in their lives. I would like to hear from you in
response to what I have to say. By, the way, a lesbian woman
approached me one day, someone that I knew from work, she told me that
she loved me. Most straight people would have been very upset at such
a remark. I simply said that "I can’t say the same to you except in
the Christian sense, I also said that I won’t judge you for your
lifestyle, but I don’t agree with it. Any comments would be
appreciated.
Cindy
Mathew Enoch Mount
The question is not what we think about homosexuals, but the question
is what God thinks about homosexuals. Godless democracy is what built
the Tower of Babble, but it was God himself that destroyed it and
cased many to parish under the rubble. Overall, today many may parish
under the rubble of the tower of religious freedom being built in
order that everyone may obtain enlightenment concerning their own
gods.
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
Peter VanGee
Peter VanGee
Peter VanGee
The question is not what we think about homosexuals, but the question
is what God thinks about homosexuals.
Godless democracy is what built
the Tower of Babble, but it was God himself that destroyed it and
cased many to parish under the rubble. Overall, today many may parish
under the rubble of the tower of religious freedom being built in
order that everyone may obtain enlightenment concerning their own
gods.
Jan D
made, that choice creates results.
ONE such a result is simply non acceptance by a part of society. Live
with it.
Why must I rape my own conscience and morality to accomodate a person
doing deeds that is file and unaccepted by my standards of living and
being.
You can bend the Bible to underwrite any doctrine you want to
promote.
Sexual preverences is in essence a humanright issue, man wants to do
what he wants to do. No one can change that.And I don't want to see it
changed because it is the first big separation tool God has given-
Choose your path!
Science is pro human and pro politics (where is the research funds
coming from?). At this stage in human history it is "in" to sing in
the gay choir of a million voices.
I have never seen a happy gay person,never! - there are allways
issues,allways.
The irony of the name.
And biological speaking _the plumbing doesn't even
fit !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> > jesus-the-chri...@googlegroups.com<jesus-the-christ%2Bunsubscribe...@googlegroups.com>
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> > For more options, visit this group at
> > ===>
> >http://groups.google.com/group/jesus-the-christ?hl=en
Peter VanGee
It doesn't matter what colour you paint it it still stay a choice you
made, that choice creates results.
ONE such a result is simply non acceptance by a part of society. Live
with it.
Why must I rape my own conscience and morality to accomodate a person
doing deeds that is file and unaccepted by my standards of living and
being.
You can bend the Bible to underwrite any doctrine you want to
promote.
Sexual preverences is in essence a humanright issue, man wants to do
what he wants to do. No one can change that.And I don't want to see it
changed because it is the first big separation tool God has given-
Choose your path!
Science is pro human and pro politics (where is the research funds
coming from?). At this stage in human history it is "in" to sing in
the gay choir of a million voices.
I have never seen a happy gay person,never! - there are allways
issues,allways.
And biological speaking _the plumbing doesn't even
fit !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Mathew Enoch Mount
The biblical root of homosexuality being against the teachings of God
originates with Genesis. God made Adam and then he said that it was
not good for Adam to be alone so as a result he put Adam into a deep
sleep and then from Adam God made Eve. The scripture says the
following about the heterosexual natural design that God made, "The
man said, "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she
shall be called 'woman,' for she was taken out of man." For this
reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his
wife, and they will become one flesh." Genesis 2:23-24 (NIV) Overall,
the point is that for a marital couple to become one flesh a man must
leave his father and mother, and the reason why a man would leave his
father and mother is because God made woman to be bone of the bone of
man and flesh of the flesh of man such that in order for the two to
become one flesh they must enter a marital union.
Jesus Christ quotes this passage of scripture from Genesis chapter two
and he says that what God has joined let no man put asunder. The
point is that God joins men and women in order that they will be one
flesh because it was also God that made the one from the other, and by
God joining the two he reunites what he had divided. Overall, the
purpose thus of being incomplete and later becoming one flesh by
uniting the two is that man will gain a help made that will make him
complete and not alone, but until man is made complete he is put under
the jurisdiction of his parents.
When men try to enter into union with other man and when women try to
enter into union with other women, then they are in violation to God’s
work to make the two into one flesh. The question is if God is the
one joining a man with a man and a woman with a woman, and according
to the text the answer from Genesis chapter two would be to say that
God does not join a man with a man and a woman with a woman because if
God did such things then he would be working against his own design
(this is a rather hollow but true argument). Overall, God’s natural
design from Genesis chapter two is what God made prior to the fall and
prior to sin having entered into the garden, so we thus lean that sin
is what produces homosexuality and lesbianism.
If we gathered all of the homosexuals and placed them onto one island
and then we gathered all the lesbians and placed them onto another
island, then even if we provided all the food and luxuries of the
world to such people for one hundred and twenty years without any
influence from the opposite gender, then I guarantee that God will
strike them all dead in that time without any survivors (this would be
worse than Sodom and Gomorra because it actually had survivors). The
end result of homosexuality and lesbianism is death even if they are
not destroyed through human efforts administering justice. Overall,
even the blessed hope of the Church to await a savior from heaven
(namely Jesus Christ) would never come to fulfillment for homosexuals
and lesbians that lived in generations past, but the blessed hope will
be realized for Abraham through his descendants as well as Adam for
that matter.
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
Peter VanGee
Hello,
The biblical root of homosexuality being against the teachings of God
originates with Genesis. God made Adam and then he said that it was
not good for Adam to be alone so as a result he put Adam into a deep
sleep and then from Adam God made Eve. The scripture says the
following about the heterosexual natural design that God made, "The
man said, "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she
shall be called 'woman,' for she was taken out of man." For this
reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his
wife, and they will become one flesh." Genesis 2:23-24 (NIV) Overall,
the point is that for a marital couple to become one flesh a man must
leave his father and mother, and the reason why a man would leave his
father and mother is because God made woman to be bone of the bone of
man and flesh of the flesh of man such that in order for the two to
become one flesh they must enter a marital union.
Jesus Christ quotes this passage of scripture from Genesis chapter two
and he says that what God has joined let no man put asunder. The
point is that God joins men and women in order that they will be one
flesh because it was also God that made the one from the other, and by
God joining the two he reunites what he had divided. Overall, the
purpose thus of being incomplete and later becoming one flesh by
uniting the two is that man will gain a help made that will make him
complete and not alone, but until man is made complete he is put under
the jurisdiction of his parents.
When men try to enter into union with other man and when women try to
enter into union with other women, then they are in violation to God’s
work to make the two into one flesh. The question is if God is the
one joining a man with a man and a woman with a woman, and according
to the text the answer from Genesis chapter two would be to say that
God does not join a man with a man and a woman with a woman because if
God did such things then he would be working against his own design
(this is a rather hollow but true argument). Overall, God’s natural
design from Genesis chapter two is what God made prior to the fall and
prior to sin having entered into the garden, so we thus lean that sin
is what produces homosexuality and lesbianism.
If we gathered all of the homosexuals and placed them onto one island
and then we gathered all the lesbians and placed them onto another
island, then even if we provided all the food and luxuries of the
world to such people for one hundred and twenty years without any
influence from the opposite gender, then I guarantee that God will
strike them all dead in that time without any survivors (this would be
worse than Sodom and Gomorra because it actually had survivors). The
end result of homosexuality and lesbianism is death even if they are
not destroyed through human efforts administering justice. Overall,
even the blessed hope of the Church to await a savior from heaven
(namely Jesus Christ) would never come to fulfillment for homosexuals
and lesbians that lived in generations past, but the blessed hope will
be realized for Abraham through his descendants as well as Adam for
that matter.
Homophobic rubbish...I've already dismissed S & G...you should know better. But it brings up an interesting point. In some middle east countries that have very conservative sexual attitudes...foreign nationals who work there have to grow beards, look scruffy (kind of like Esau) - for if they look boyish or too feminine...they get gang raped.
Jan D
God made ADAM and EVE
not ADAM and STEVE
ON EARTH Ministries
Ariel, Jacob, Peter, Mathew, Dwight, Joe, Jan, and Cynthia –
Lately, I have been, and continue to be, very busy with family matters, and haven’t had a chance to post in a while.
However, I felt it important to take the time to weigh in on this one…, again.
I think it is telling that, in the 40+ posts of this string alone, we have issued many more words, and spent much more time, commenting on homosexuality than all of the prophets, or for that matter, all authors of all of the books in Holy Scripture as we know it. In fact, if you combine all of the posts on the subject (this string alone), we have published more verbiage than the entire word count of some complete books of the Bible.
That should be the first warning sign.
If you are not part of a direct solution to the perceived problem, and yet you continue to form opinion and talk about it, you are engaging in gossip. It may be cultural gossip, religious gossip, spiritual gossip, moral gossip, legalistic gossip, or even philosophical gossip. But, it is still gossip.
Or, it may be you just assumed that your personal observations and opinion on homosexuality are important to God. This probably isn’t the case, unless you have committed a homosexual act, are struggling with it in your own mind, or are being led astray to hate or judge those who have. To think anything else seems prideful, and should scare the crap out of any truly God-fearing person.
Jesus said “you who are without sin”, not “you who have not committed an act of adultery”, when presented with the woman and her sin.
As I said in an earlier post: Sin is sin. What makes it a sin is that you are going against God’s will. That is what it’s all about. Not whether you are a liar, killer, thief, idolater, glutton, adulterer or homosexual.
We are all sinners.
Although I imagine that there are many of us wouldn’t call ourselves liars, killers, thieves, idolaters, gluttons, or adulterers even though we have committed these sins, if nowhere else, in our hearts; which is the place it really matters to our Father.
And clearly, I repeat CLEARLY, Jesus sets the bar much higher than the bottom line of the law. “Sin no more.”, and He doesn’t want to hear any excuses. If you try to blame it on your body, or some other part of yourself you should be in control of, he says, “Cut it out!” We are to, in his own words “be perfect”.
And I certainly hope that judging homosexuals doesnt make you feel perfect.
If you would truly feel like the focus of your ministry is to be homosexuality, and want to have an impact, try some of these suggestions:
1.) Pray for those that are burdened with the sin of lust, manifested in homosexuality.
2.) Live your life as a kind, loving Christian, and set an example.
3.) “Adopt” a person struggling with homosexuality, and find activities to do together that don’t hinge on sex. (Watch a movie, go running, share some music, etc) Think about it as the time they spend with you is time that they are doing something other than sinning.
And perhaps we can get back to the log jams of our own collective vision.
For example, take greed: I would venture to say that 99.999% of those that post here are in the top 1% of world when it comes to wealth. ($10,000 a year or more. 50% of the world population makes less than $100 annually)
Sha' alu shalom Yerushalayim;
Pray for the peace of Jerusalem.
- Ps. 122
Brother Larry Roy Woodsmall
ON EARTH MINISTRIES
Peter VanGee
That should be the first warning sign.
If you are not part of a direct solution to the perceived problem, and yet you continue to form opinion and talk about it, you are engaging in gossip. It may be cultural gossip, religious gossip, spiritual gossip, moral gossip, legalistic gossip, or even philosophical gossip. But, it is still gossip.
Or, it may be you just assumed that your personal observations and opinion on homosexuality are important to God. This probably isn’t the case, unless you have committed a homosexual act, are struggling with it in your own mind, or are being led astray to hate or judge those who have. To think anything else seems prideful, and should scare the crap out of any truly God-fearing person.
Jesus said “you who are without sin”, not “you who have not committed an act of adultery”, when presented with the woman and her sin.
As I said in an earlier post: Sin is sin. What makes it a sin is that you are going against God’s will. That is what it’s all about. Not whether you are a liar, killer, thief, idolater, glutton, adulterer or homosexual.
We are all sinners.
For example, take greed: I would venture to say that 99.999% of those that post here are in the top 1% of world when it comes to wealth. ($10,000 a year or more. 50% of the world population makes less than $100 annually)
Jan D
My opinion is just that - MINE.
Thank you for stopping me
God Bless you !!!!
On Jan 22, 11:04 pm, ON EARTH Ministries
Mathew Enoch Mount
First of all I believe that you are in error Larry to talk about how
people in the United States are so incredibly wealthy as a result of
the money that they make. For example some places that I have gone to
have incredible social wealth through people being very loving to one
another and as well as strangers, but in this nation people often
fight each other and are divided against each other in competition in
order to survive by being the fittest. This means that if a person
has something of value, then they could get robbed by offering it to
others out of love and those same people may not excel unless they
learn how to fight to become the strongest (both are bad).
Also note that the nations that are considered the poorest actually
have the greatest abundance of natural resources, and usually what
happens is that nations that have very little natural resources find
ways to pray on places that have a lot of resources through installing
predatory governments. My point is that in places that are wealthy in
natural resources living on a hundred dollars a year may not be as bad
as what a person would think, and also one should consider that the
wealth of people in a nation that is reported in dollars (GDP) almost
always only includes legal money gained by those of the nation in the
nation (many people of many nations make most of their money
illegally). Overall, my point is that people should not rob others
and then thank God for wealth, and people should not call others poor
who are provided for directly by God.
Regarding me acting on the homosexual issue to prevent gossip as you
define it this would mean for me that I would have to cast people off
of the news group that promote homosexuality, or I would have to stop
proclaiming the truth of scripture in order to prevent gossip as you
define it. I do not see either option to be compelling at this time,
and I find rebukes to be more constructive. I however fear that I
perhaps fall short by not taking more aggressive biblical actions
sometimes when justice is required. Overall, I will thus attempt to
explain why the homosexual issue is important for discussion.
If a ordained minister engages in a homosexual lifestyle and
encourages others to do the same, then his entire ministry is in open
opposition to the New Testament in the strongest ways just short of
being openly for the worship of Satan. If the head (the minister)
will be cast into hell, then how much more the members of his
ministry? If no one ever hands that minister over to Satan or at the
very least dis-fellowships him, then that is a testimony that God is
not working through other people that come in contact with that
minister. If the only way that God can work is by himself directly
but never through you, then you are not in Christ.
Christ is a great king, he makes judgments, and he gives those
judgments over to his servants to hand over to others, and if you do
not believe that this is true then read any of the prophets of the
scripture, read about why Israel was commanded to destroy people even
at times when they did not want to destroy anyone, and most
importantly read about why Saint Paul said and did the things that he
did when perversion was at its height. The greatest form of hatred
expressed by a father to any child is never to care about them enough
to punish them, and thus if God has never punished you through others
and through himself then most likely he outright hates you. God thus
bares the objects of his wrath with great patients (Romans 9) until
the day when even the elements parish into the fire and the entire
earth melts away, so what we can learn from the fact that God is love
is that love is patient and love is kind according to 1 Corinthians
13:4. Overall, God is kind by not nailing all of us dead and throwing
us into hell for all of eternity as we stand, and God is patient in
that he diligently holds back his wrath for the appointed day like in
the case of Noah and the flood.
God bless you all,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
On Jan 22, 3:04 pm, ON EARTH Ministries
Mathew Enoch Mount
I actually admire Larry’s passion for stomping on people out of
justice, but I just believe that we should be about God’s justice that
comes strait out of the mouth of God and onto the pages of scripture
and into our hearts instead of man made justice that has is origin in
human opinion (I am not discounting revelation, but that also has to
be measured by scripture). I also admire the expression of love that
Larry has for desiring that none would parish, and I myself would
never desire that any that God has entrusted to me would parish. I
believe that Larry and I are very close to full agreement on the issue
at hand, but I think that most all of you including Larry are afraid
of administering justice according to the bible because you feel that
it would compromise your eternal security. Overall, the truth however
is that despite election any of you could easily be put into the
situation that you are either forced to make a judgment that would
involve either dis-fellowship of another person or handing a person
over to Satan, and in such a situation sometimes if you do not
administer justice in this way then God will count you guilty of the
very same sins and thus cause your eternal security and that of others
to be compromised.
The ancient Hebrew scripture for examples talks about times when
justice would be compromised, and thus the entire land of the Jews
would be filled with perversion (these are the times when God would
use other nations to administer justice or even pelages). Today some
churches are actually filled full of so much perversion that Islamic
people in the Middle East hear about such things and say to
themselves, "Thank God I am not a Christian, those people are
wicked!" Overall, when people see a police officer in uniform many
would feel safe, but today for example when a parent with children
sees a priest in uniform she may feel terrified for the sake of her
children despite even a devout Christian faith.
Justice and safety should go together, and when the wolves come out to
feast on the sheep the shepherd of the flock would not be a good
shepherd if he fled but he would be even worse if he nailed the sheep
in unison with the wolves (if you are that sheep then you are being
made into a living sacrifice). The good shepherd nails the wolves
every time, and the good shepherd is the same kind of person that
would throw something impure into the fire in order to make something
pure. Overall, without justice safety is greatly compromised unless
people are either without sin or being made perfect (in this cause a
person is already in the fire and being made perfect by it).
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
Peter VanGee
If a ordained minister engages in a homosexual lifestyle and
encourages others to do the same, then his entire ministry is in open
opposition to the New Testament in the strongest ways just short of
being openly for the worship of Satan. If the head (the minister)
will be cast into hell, then how much more the members of his
ministry? If no one ever hands that minister over to Satan or at the
very least dis-fellowships him, then that is a testimony that God is
not working through other people that come in contact with that
minister. If the only way that God can work is by himself directly
but never through you, then you are not in Christ.
Peter VanGee
Mathew Enoch Mount
I would do some more writing about why homosexuality is a sin, but
everyone that is genuinely Christian knows homosexuality to be a sin
already because this is self evident. If you do not find
homosexuality to be a sin, then pray that Christ would reveal himself
to you so that you too can become a Christian, be baptized, believe in
the truth, and be saved.
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
Peter VanGee
----------------------------------------------------------------
Larry Roy Woodsmall §§§§ Freed from Monasticism
Evan L. Hale §§§§§§§§§§§ Thankful for Whiskey
Adam Colbert §§§§§§§§§§ Jesus look alike
Mathew Enoch Mount §§§§ Conservative
===>
Together we operate Jesus on the Web
----------------------------------------------------------------
You received this message because you are subscribed
To the Google Groups "Jesus On the Web" group.
To post to this group, send email to
===>
jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
----------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
===>
jesus-the-chri...@googlegroups.com
Mathew Enoch Mount
those people that genuinely believe in Christ.
> > jesus-the-chri...@googlegroups.com<jesus-the-christ%2Bunsubscribe...@googlegroups.com>
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> > For more options, visit this group at
> > ===>
> >http://groups.google.com/group/jesus-the-christ?hl=en
ON EARTH Ministries
Mathew Enoch Mount
I understand your concern Larry, but I find that a public exhortation
of sin requires a public rebuke of sin. A private exhortation of sin
requires a private rebuke of sin. If people are in sin and they do
not promote the sins, then certainly we should help those people
conquer sin if possible. If for example Peter promoted homosexuality
as righteousness, then if I never said anything about the issue to
show that I find homosexuality to be a sin then people would believe
that I agree with the theology of Peter and people could make
decisions that effect me that could harm me for supposedly supporting
theology that I do not support.
Basically if you hear a public charge or blasphemy that openly is
against God or against someone without reasonable cause, then you can
be judged for being in agreement with the person brining the blasphemy
or the charge if you do not speak out against those people. Most
churches will just quietly silence people that say things that they do
not like to hear, and I find that this is not the way that I would
operate a church. Instead I would rather be public with all of such
public issues in order to show everyone exactly what is going on so
that people need not speculate what is said in closed doors.
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
On Feb 2, 7:26 pm, ON EARTH Ministries
ON EARTH Ministries
----------------------------------------------------------------
Larry Roy Woodsmall §§§§ Freed from Monasticism
Evan L. Hale §§§§§§§§§§§ Thankful for Whiskey
Adam Colbert §§§§§§§§§§ Jesus look alike
Mathew Enoch Mount §§§§ Conservative
===>
Together we operate Jesus on the Web
----------------------------------------------------------------
You received this message because you are subscribed
To the Google Groups "Jesus On the Web" group.
To post to this group, send email to
===>
jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
----------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
===>
jesus-the-chri...@googlegroups.com
----------------------------------------------------------------
For more options, visit this group at
===>
http://groups.google.com/group/jesus-the-christ?hl=en
----------------------------------------------------------------
--
Peter VanGee
ON EARTH Ministries
Now, that I have truly surrendered to God, I have the view that we are held to a much higher standard than base animal behavior. i don't throw poop either. if you are just 'not breaking the law', you are a marginal member of the Kingdom of God. Sort of like getting a D-. I don't think it is a good thing to have ANY kind of sex just because you are horny.
Peter VanGee
actually, I was trying to gently rib Mat.
For most of my life I made the same observations, and had the same view as you Peter.In fact, the guy that I've considered my closest friend for the last 30 years claims homosexuality. And indeed, the 2 or 3 disfunctional relationships he's had have all been with other men. Although it is kind of like me claiming to be a baseball player. It has been a number of years since I have suited up, swung a bat, or really caught any balls, as it is with him.
Now, that I have truly surrendered to God, I have the view that we are held to a much higher standard than base animal behavior. i don't throw poop either. if you are just 'not breaking the law', you are a marginal member of the Kingdom of God. Sort of like getting a D-. I don't think it is a good thing to have ANY kind of sex just because you are horny.
I have found that if you are married and want to lessen the tension in your relationship, try taking a year off from sex. You either rediscover an unequeled friendship, or find that you had little more than a gratification co-dependency.
You can imagine some of the conversations I have had with my buddy! I make my 'liberal' friends cringe as much as I make my 'consevative' friends roll their eyes.
Full Metal Jacket? You forget, I am a ex-marine that served in SouthEast Asia....That movie was a little light, I thought. Of course, it was about a journalist....
ON EARTH Ministries
I understand that you aren’t an advocate of promiscuity. However, I am a little alarmed that you would use the term “normal state”, inferring that it’s somehow justifiable if it fits in the norm of a parochial observation of animal behavior. That smacks of naturalism, and not Christianity. I don’t want to sound like a parent but, if all of the other primates were jumping off of bridges, would that make it ok? (chuckle)
Brother Pete, we live in a broken reality. The very existence of death, entropy, and decay are emblematic of this. I believe our Father will re-order the “heavens and the earth”, or in more contemporary terms, make the universe anew by actually fixing physics itself. It does none of us any good to have a small, ineffectual concept of God and his plan.
Eternity now.
In regards to benefits, and such, I am a proponent of collectivism, and believe that there is a strong case for it in the Gospel story. I believe that all who gather together be able share unencumbered, and should be encouraged to do so. I have always felt that Jesus was pretty straight forward about sharing, giving, forgiving, and inclusion. Contrary to Brother Mat’s rhetoric about “promoting” some sort of behavior by loving others unconditionally, I know the difference between what I am saying and what he is inferring. I don’t think Jesus was promoting promiscuity by dealing with the adulterous woman with grace and compassion.
I have been married most of the last 39 years! Yeah, I don’t think it would be fair of me to suggest such a thing to you as celibacy.
And yes, I believe that you, Bro. Mat, and I are a lot more alike than any of us would admit. All three of us are provocative, sincere, and kind of self-important. (chuckle)
Killing? I don’t know about “natural”, but it is all too human. I tell people that I won’t kill for them anymore, but I am willing to die for them. There is something strangely visceral, and almost sexual about killing. Hate, it’s emotional component, is obviously “anti-love”, if you will allow, and contrary to my humble understanding of God.
Violence and killing is far too easy, and obviously the devil’s work.
Peace and life can be a challenge until you give up. You know, unconditionally surrender…
Peter VanGee
I understand that you aren’t an advocate of promiscuity. However, I am a little alarmed that you would use the term “normal state”, inferring that it’s somehow justifiable if it fits in the norm of a parochial observation of animal behavior. That smacks of naturalism, and not Christianity. I don’t want to sound like a parent but, if all of the other primates were jumping off of bridges, would that make it ok? (chuckle)
Brother Pete, we live in a broken reality. The very existence of death, entropy, and decay are emblematic of this. I believe our Father will re-order the “heavens and the earth”, or in more contemporary terms, make the universe anew by actually fixing physics itself. It does none of us any good to have a small, ineffectual concept of God and his plan.
Eternity now.
In regards to benefits, and such, I am a proponent of collectivism, and believe that there is a strong case for it in the Gospel story. I believe that all who gather together be able share unencumbered, and should be encouraged to do so. I have always felt that Jesus was pretty straight forward about sharing, giving, forgiving, and inclusion. Contrary to Brother Mat’s rhetoric about “promoting” some sort of behavior by loving others unconditionally, I know the difference between what I am saying and what he is inferring. I don’t think Jesus was promoting promiscuity by dealing with the adulterous woman with grace and compassion.
ON EARTH Ministries
Jesus spoke hypothetically, “Then which one would be your neighbor?” And the analogous format of parable functions very much the same way.
Q: Do monkeys jump off bridges?
A: Why yes, Brother Peter, they do.
However, suggesting that scientific inquiry can be used to "expose that which is false" in the Bible is something only humans seem to do. And frankly, kind of naïve for someone who seems to be as studied as yourself.
Don’t you think “inaccurate by scientific standards” might be an expression that would serve you better? That is, if your interest in the Bible is purely secular.
Unless you are actually trying to say that there is content you have personally selected in the Bible which you believe to be untruthful, insincere, hypocritical, disingenuous, spurious, or just plain bogus. And if you do believe this selected content you have personally judged, to be sham, counterfeit, and something that is not genuine, who do you believe is responsible for this spurious information? Are you implying intent to deceive? Who do you feel justified to hold culpable? The Apostle Saint Paul, the Holy Spirit which inspired him, our Father Himself? Perhaps unnamed translators and scribes, or more nebulously, man in general?
Or, do you think that the “great deceiver” has managed to co-author scripture?
You obviously have done a lot of thinking about this, and I know you to be a prayerful man. I have faith that you will be granted the truth and grace you need to find peace. As you are getting older now it may become evident to you, as it has for me, that “the angry young man” who doesn’t find resolution continues to age and become “a bitter old fool”.
Brother Pete, the obvious truth that we live in a broken reality; that the very existence of death, entropy, and decay are emblematic of is exactly what “I AM” (is) talking about.
Great "Freudian Typo", Petey! "As far as I'm concerned, I AM a new man inserting my will on a damaged reality." You might take a moment to realize that what you are saying is that you are a middle-aged man who is preoccupied with your own will, and the zeal you feel from the image of "inserting" it into this soiled and broken reality.
Or, were you using an analogous hypothetical?
What I was trying to express is that the basic statement for your case was, "I have seen other primates do it…"
Or, were you using an analogous hypothetical?
Because if you were not, it would seem you have a small, ineffectual concept of God and his plan. Don’t you feel that God's aspirations for us, and the standard He sets for us, is much higher than the natural order of gorillas?
I would not ban an obviously homosexual person from preaching with me, anymore than I would an obese person for committing the sin of gluttony, someone who has experienced lust, lived an extravagant lifestyle, or has issues with vanity, greed, apathy, felt hopeless, angry, proud, or wanted something that belonged to someone else..
Indeed, there would be no preachers left.
I ask the same of everybody. The same thing I believe Jesus might ask. That, particularly while on the pulpit, they practice the virtues of chastity, temperance, charity, diligence, patience, kindness, and humility.
Those are the keys right there…
Or have you managed to do something, with magnificent effect, that you haven’t shared with us? You know, by inserting that will of yours. The one you’ve been telling us about?
"I AM that eternity.", you said….
He is, you are not. Or, at least not yet. Take it either as a truth you know in your heart, or as an opinion of some guy on the internet.
I think we both have a bit more of a journey before we can claim the via unitiva
AS far as the "Collectivism" flap, there P., I was just trying to make a case for unconditional sharing…
Peter VanGee
Know the Lord,
----------------------------------------------------------------
Peter VanGee
Or, do you think that the “great deceiver” has managed to co-author scripture?
ON EARTH Ministries
I think at this point in the discussion the both of us might benefit from a revisit to one of the foundational writers we were blessed to read during our seminary days, and in fact you made mention of earlier, Saint Tom Aquinas.
It had entered my mind several times over the last few months of JOTW discussions, and you brought him to the surface for me again. During lunch today I thought about how his use of Aristotle was based in truth, sincerity, and grace. He never, at anytime, allows the situation to become “Reason versus Revelation”, but allows them to coexist and complement each other, because he knew the difference.
This has also come up for me while working on “The New Jerusalem Handbook”. Being the Trinitarian that I am, I felt compelled, (by revelation, and understood by reasoning), to include a third, “experience”.
To clarify, all three are ways we come to know things. Experience (physically), or from the world, reason (mentally), or from the mind, and revelation (spiritually), or from God.
And I believe it to be essential that we are upfront about where our loyalties lay, if you will.
Are we to be creatures, allowing the physicality of experience in our material world to be the master of reason in our lives, and revelation to be trumped by bodily desire and gratification? We would become materialistic and reactive, wouldn’t we?
Are we to be minds, allowing the quantification of thought in our mental space to be the master of action in our lives, and revelation to be measured by reason and intellect? We would become cold and calculated, wouldn’t we?
Or, are we to be souls, allowing the revelation of God in our hearts to be the master of action in our lives, and reason to be tempered with love and grace? We would become holy, and children of God, wouldn’t we?
Why?
Because experiences are varied and open to interpretation, which can be flawed. But revelation comes from God and is perfect.
Q: How many scriptures are there?
A: As many as God wants there to be!
(Old seminary joke.)
In your regard to the Bible in it’s various forms, Torah, Old Testament, the Catholic version, the Orthodox version, the Protestant version, and the multitude of translations and formats, I find them fascinating and inspirational, all of them. And I am strongly suspect of anyone who uses only one example, and unilaterally poo-poos the rest.
I find the Gnostic texts pretty fascinating too. They certainly shine a light on some of the forms the Church took in the first 500 years after Christ’s death. The Gnostics obviously have the “knowledge rather than grace” thing going on. And whether it’s the Gospel of Thomas, The Gospel of Mary Magdalene, the ancient Gospel of Solomon, or the strange and mysterious Gospel of Judas they all seems to be more about getting into Heaven by what you know, and not necessarily about the love and grace of God, so it seems obvious why most of them were not included by the folks at Nicaea.
I’m still tippy-toeing around the Koran, and don’t have an informed offering yet.
Buddhist texts sometimes remind me of puzzle books, and the Bhagavad-Gita and Vedic texts have an interesting sort timber to them, but lack the sense of emotional immediacy I get from Judeo-Christian texts, I guess... I think some of their illustrations speak for themselves…
I’m not here to be negative about other faith traditions, but to be positive about ours.
And I suppose that even if you believe people have “screwed them up”, you should also know that God has a way to work it all out for our good.
I still say you have a small and ineffectual concept of Monkeys and bridges though!
Chuckle
Photo A!!!!!! illustrates your concept of a monkey who would have to be anthropomorphized in order to jump.
Photo B!!!!!! illustrates an actual picture of a primate jumping from a bridge of branches in the treetops.
Mathew Enoch Mount
Even if I liked you as my best friend, Peter, I would have to have the
same exact disposition regarding the scripture that I have. I believe
the scripture to be infallibly true. You, Peter, have demonstrated in
many cases that you do not believe the scripture to be infallibly
true, and this is the origin of most of your theology as I see it.
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
> >> jesus-the-chri...@googlegroups.com<jesus-the-christ%2Bunsubscribe...@googlegroups.com>
> > jesus-the-chri...@googlegroups.com<jesus-the-christ%2Bunsubscribe...@googlegroups.com>
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> > For more options, visit this group at
> > ===>
> >http://groups.google.com/group/jesus-the-christ?hl=en
Peter VanGee
ON EARTH Ministries
“I don't think it unwise to demand consistency between our world of experience and spiritual revelation.” - Peter V. 2/8
8Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. – Hebrews 13:8
(Experience the world through the promise of the Cross and the Resurrection.)
19For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."
20Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength. – 1:19-25
(Don’t be a wise guy.)
27But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29so that no one may boast before him. – 1Corinthians 1:27-29
(Sounds like that “re-ordering of physics” I spoke of earlier has a mental proponent…)