I'm not sure how non-believers are accepted here, but I am interested
in serious philosophical discussions about reasons to believe the
basic premise of theism (A god exists) in general, and Christianity
specifically.
I'm not here to belittle or make fun of anyone, but a large portion of
the population has basically adopted the stance that, not only should
I believe, but not doing so presents a great risk. In light of this, I
can only ask, "Why"?
Interesting that your email came in at 10:23. Twenty three being shorthand
for 2/3=.666 For example, many professional athletes wear the number 23.
Although there are a few good ones, a more self-centered bunch you may never
meet.
All that being said, I've never met an honest atheist. Which is a nice way
of saying, I think you're full of it.
Why should you believe? Pick up the Bible. Read the story of Jonah. Its
about 3 pages long, the most it will take you is an evening. God spared the
Ninevites, and he may spare you too.
Sooner or later, we're gonna have a barbecue and I hope your keister won't
be on the fire.
On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 10:23 AM, Drafterman <drafter...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm not sure how non-believers are accepted here, but I am interested
> in serious philosophical discussions about reasons to believe the
> basic premise of theism (A god exists) in general, and Christianity
> specifically.
> I'm not here to belittle or make fun of anyone, but a large portion of
> the population has basically adopted the stance that, not only should
> I believe, but not doing so presents a great risk. In light of this, I
> can only ask, "Why"?
We learn from definition that God is the greatest imaginable force.
Some people believe that the greatest imaginable force is randomness,
others believe that the greatest imaginable force is the work of their
own hands, others believe that the greatest imaginable force is
themselves, and yet others believe that the greatest imaginable force
is beyond our imagination. Clearly with the frailties of man if we
could imagine the greatest imaginable force then it would be less
powerful then what it would be if it was beyond our imagination.
All of us perhaps to some extent are hostile to God and do not even
know, but some search for God all of their lives while they hide from
him. This is because Adam and Eve hid from God after they had sinned,
and thus they became alienated from God. God had to make for them fur
coats to cloth them before they would come to him and interact with
him in the greater since. God had to sacrifice an animal causing the
shedding of blood to atone for sins before Adam and Eve could be
clothed in robes of righteousness to interact with God.
The message of the cross of Christ is that through his blood he as
purchased us and has given us these robes or righteousness that we may
appear before God in the wedding supper between him and us, and we may
prepare for union with him under the covenant of marriage. We thus
will at some time be one flesh with God because a man will leave his
father and mother’s house to become one flesh by being united to his
wife, and this is why Christ came to the earth to be united to his
wife. Overall, if this seed of God that comes from Christ to bare the
children of God is not implanted into the heart of the unbeliever,
then God will not have children.
The children of God produce good fruit because they are part of the
vine (this vine is Christ), but apart from him every seed that God has
not planted in his vineyard is a weed. These weeds because they do
not produce good fruit will be gathered together and burned in the
stove before the harvest of all the earth occurs. God will gather
together the good fruit and being it into the barn at the end of time
(this is the kingdom of God).
> I'm not sure how non-believers are accepted here, but I am interested
> in serious philosophical discussions about reasons to believe the
> basic premise of theism (A god exists) in general, and Christianity
> specifically.
> I'm not here to belittle or make fun of anyone, but a large portion of
> the population has basically adopted the stance that, not only should
> I believe, but not doing so presents a great risk. In light of this, I
> can only ask, "Why"?
> Interesting that your email came in at 10:23. Twenty three being shorthand
> for 2/3=.666 For example, many professional athletes wear the number 23.
> Although there are a few good ones, a more self-centered bunch you may never
> meet.
> All that being said, I've never met an honest atheist. Which is a nice way
> of saying, I think you're full of it.
> Why should you believe? Pick up the Bible. Read the story of Jonah. Its
> about 3 pages long, the most it will take you is an evening. God spared the
> Ninevites, and he may spare you too.
> Sooner or later, we're gonna have a barbecue and I hope your keister won't
> be on the fire.
> Know the Lord,
> Pete
> On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 10:23 AM, Drafterman <drafter...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I'm not sure how non-believers are accepted here, but I am interested
> > in serious philosophical discussions about reasons to believe the
> > basic premise of theism (A god exists) in general, and Christianity
> > specifically.
> > I'm not here to belittle or make fun of anyone, but a large portion of
> > the population has basically adopted the stance that, not only should
> > I believe, but not doing so presents a great risk. In light of this, I
> > can only ask, "Why"?
Evangelism, I thought I was doing fine. Interesting that my email came in
at 5:23. As I didn't plan that, I'd say its a little more than
coincidence. What my friends used to refer to as the 'Pete' factor. If I
were drafterman, I'd be out looking for sack cloth and ashes.
With regard to evangelism, I'm here to save drafterman - not kiss his butt.
When he gets sick of me - he can go to just about any church on Sunday -
give them his money and they'll treat him real nice.
Know the Lord,
Pete
On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 5:44 PM, Mathew Enoch Mount <mmo...@essex1.com>wrote:
> On Oct 28, 4:23 pm, Peter VanGee <petervan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi Drafterman:
> > Interesting that your email came in at 10:23. Twenty three being
> shorthand
> > for 2/3=.666 For example, many professional athletes wear the number 23.
> > Although there are a few good ones, a more self-centered bunch you may
> never
> > meet.
> > All that being said, I've never met an honest atheist. Which is a nice
> way
> > of saying, I think you're full of it.
> > Why should you believe? Pick up the Bible. Read the story of Jonah.
> Its
> > about 3 pages long, the most it will take you is an evening. God spared
> the
> > Ninevites, and he may spare you too.
> > Sooner or later, we're gonna have a barbecue and I hope your keister
> won't
> > be on the fire.
> > Know the Lord,
> > Pete
> > On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 10:23 AM, Drafterman <drafter...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > I'm not sure how non-believers are accepted here, but I am interested
> > > in serious philosophical discussions about reasons to believe the
> > > basic premise of theism (A god exists) in general, and Christianity
> > > specifically.
> > > I'm not here to belittle or make fun of anyone, but a large portion of
> > > the population has basically adopted the stance that, not only should
> > > I believe, but not doing so presents a great risk. In light of this, I
> > > can only ask, "Why"?
On Oct 28, 5:23 pm, Peter VanGee <petervan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Drafterman:
> Interesting that your email came in at 10:23. Twenty three being shorthand
> for 2/3=.666 For example, many professional athletes wear the number 23.
> Although there are a few good ones, a more self-centered bunch you may never
> meet.
> All that being said, I've never met an honest atheist. Which is a nice way
> of saying, I think you're full of it.
I'm not sure in what way that is supposed to be "nice". Perhaps you
could explain it better.
In any event, my experience has taught me that a person's religious
stance is not an indication of their trustworthiness.
> Why should you believe? Pick up the Bible. Read the story of Jonah. Its
> about 3 pages long, the most it will take you is an evening. God spared the
> Ninevites, and he may spare you too.
Ok, I read it, but I didn't see anything that suggested why I should
believe.
> Sooner or later, we're gonna have a barbecue and I hope your keister won't
> be on the fire.
Arguments from force aren't terribly convincing. Aside from being a
logical fallacy, they require that I believe the proclamation first.
As far as your concern for my well being, given your unfounded
statements regarding my honesty, I'm skeptical.
> On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 10:23 AM, Drafterman <drafter...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I'm not sure how non-believers are accepted here, but I am interested
> > in serious philosophical discussions about reasons to believe the
> > basic premise of theism (A god exists) in general, and Christianity
> > specifically.
> > I'm not here to belittle or make fun of anyone, but a large portion of
> > the population has basically adopted the stance that, not only should
> > I believe, but not doing so presents a great risk. In light of this, I
> > can only ask, "Why"?
> We learn from definition that God is the greatest imaginable force.
> Some people believe that the greatest imaginable force is randomness,
> others believe that the greatest imaginable force is the work of their
> own hands, others believe that the greatest imaginable force is
> themselves, and yet others believe that the greatest imaginable force
> is beyond our imagination. Clearly with the frailties of man if we
> could imagine the greatest imaginable force then it would be less
> powerful then what it would be if it was beyond our imagination.
> All of us perhaps to some extent are hostile to God and do not even
> know, but some search for God all of their lives while they hide from
> him. This is because Adam and Eve hid from God after they had sinned,
> and thus they became alienated from God. God had to make for them fur
> coats to cloth them before they would come to him and interact with
> him in the greater since. God had to sacrifice an animal causing the
> shedding of blood to atone for sins before Adam and Eve could be
> clothed in robes of righteousness to interact with God.
> The message of the cross of Christ is that through his blood he as
> purchased us and has given us these robes or righteousness that we may
> appear before God in the wedding supper between him and us, and we may
> prepare for union with him under the covenant of marriage. We thus
> will at some time be one flesh with God because a man will leave his
> father and mother’s house to become one flesh by being united to his
> wife, and this is why Christ came to the earth to be united to his
> wife. Overall, if this seed of God that comes from Christ to bare the
> children of God is not implanted into the heart of the unbeliever,
> then God will not have children.
> The children of God produce good fruit because they are part of the
> vine (this vine is Christ), but apart from him every seed that God has
> not planted in his vineyard is a weed. These weeds because they do
> not produce good fruit will be gathered together and burned in the
> stove before the harvest of all the earth occurs. God will gather
> together the good fruit and being it into the barn at the end of time
> (this is the kingdom of God).
> On Oct 28, 9:23 am, Drafterman <drafter...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I'm not sure how non-believers are accepted here, but I am interested
> > in serious philosophical discussions about reasons to believe the
> > basic premise of theism (A god exists) in general, and Christianity
> > specifically.
> > I'm not here to belittle or make fun of anyone, but a large portion of
> > the population has basically adopted the stance that, not only should
> > I believe, but not doing so presents a great risk. In light of this, I
> > can only ask, "Why"?
Perhaps you should not believe the message of the gospel because if
you believe falsely without God giving you the faith to believe then
what would that make you? Judas according to scripture appears to not
believe in the blood atonement of Christ and we know this because
Satan entered him after he took communion, but yet God still had a
plan for Judas because if he had not handed Christ over to be
crucified then how else? Since however you come to us with the
question of why you should believe it is my prayer that God gives you
the faith to believe for Christ did not come into the world to condemn
the world, but to save the world through him.
Consider the following text as it introduces the letter of first
Peter, "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God's elect, strangers
in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia
and Bithynia, who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of
God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for
obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood: Grace and peace
be yours in abundance." (NIV) The point shows us that his message is
for those whom have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God
the Father through the sanctifying work of the Spirit for obedience to
Jesus Christ through blood atonement. The point is that messages like
this are not for everyone, but only for those whom God has chosen, and
those whom are going to be saved.
Consider also the following text, "As you come to him, the living Stone
—rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him— you also, like
living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy
priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through
Jesus Christ." (NIV) The point is that for those whom believe we are
rejected from man and chosen by God to offer ourselves as living
sacrifices before the throne of God to be nailed onto the cross with
Christ, so the question just as you have stated it is "why should you
believe."
I was an atheist, and if believing in Christ was not a supernatural
act of God, then I would have never believed. I plotted perhaps like
you to read the scripture and show the world how Christianity was
false and only believable by stupid people that knew nothing about the
advancements of science. What I however learned is that their is a
whole world of people that struggle to believe that they are going to
be saved when in fact they commit every sin imaginable and hate God
but eagerly desire his gift of eternal salvation.
> On Oct 28, 5:39 pm, Mathew Enoch Mount <mmo...@essex1.com> wrote:
> > Hello,
> > We learn from definition that God is the greatest imaginable force.
> > Some people believe that the greatest imaginable force is randomness,
> > others believe that the greatest imaginable force is the work of their
> > own hands, others believe that the greatest imaginable force is
> > themselves, and yet others believe that the greatest imaginable force
> > is beyond our imagination. Clearly with the frailties of man if we
> > could imagine the greatest imaginable force then it would be less
> > powerful then what it would be if it was beyond our imagination.
> > All of us perhaps to some extent are hostile to God and do not even
> > know, but some search for God all of their lives while they hide from
> > him. This is because Adam and Eve hid from God after they had sinned,
> > and thus they became alienated from God. God had to make for them fur
> > coats to cloth them before they would come to him and interact with
> > him in the greater since. God had to sacrifice an animal causing the
> > shedding of blood to atone for sins before Adam and Eve could be
> > clothed in robes of righteousness to interact with God.
> > The message of the cross of Christ is that through his blood he as
> > purchased us and has given us these robes or righteousness that we may
> > appear before God in the wedding supper between him and us, and we may
> > prepare for union with him under the covenant of marriage. We thus
> > will at some time be one flesh with God because a man will leave his
> > father and mother’s house to become one flesh by being united to his
> > wife, and this is why Christ came to the earth to be united to his
> > wife. Overall, if this seed of God that comes from Christ to bare the
> > children of God is not implanted into the heart of the unbeliever,
> > then God will not have children.
> > The children of God produce good fruit because they are part of the
> > vine (this vine is Christ), but apart from him every seed that God has
> > not planted in his vineyard is a weed. These weeds because they do
> > not produce good fruit will be gathered together and burned in the
> > stove before the harvest of all the earth occurs. God will gather
> > together the good fruit and being it into the barn at the end of time
> > (this is the kingdom of God).
> > On Oct 28, 9:23 am, Drafterman <drafter...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I'm not sure how non-believers are accepted here, but I am interested
> > > in serious philosophical discussions about reasons to believe the
> > > basic premise of theism (A god exists) in general, and Christianity
> > > specifically.
> > > I'm not here to belittle or make fun of anyone, but a large portion of
> > > the population has basically adopted the stance that, not only should
> > > I believe, but not doing so presents a great risk. In light of this, I
> > > can only ask, "Why"?
> Perhaps you should not believe the message of the gospel because if
> you believe falsely without God giving you the faith to believe then
> what would that make you? Judas according to scripture appears to not
> believe in the blood atonement of Christ and we know this because
> Satan entered him after he took communion, but yet God still had a
> plan for Judas because if he had not handed Christ over to be
> crucified then how else? Since however you come to us with the
> question of why you should believe it is my prayer that God gives you
> the faith to believe for Christ did not come into the world to condemn
> the world, but to save the world through him.
> Consider the following text as it introduces the letter of first
> Peter, "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God's elect, strangers
> in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia
> and Bithynia, who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of
> God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for
> obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood: Grace and peace
> be yours in abundance." (NIV) The point shows us that his message is
> for those whom have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God
> the Father through the sanctifying work of the Spirit for obedience to
> Jesus Christ through blood atonement. The point is that messages like
> this are not for everyone, but only for those whom God has chosen, and
> those whom are going to be saved.
> Consider also the following text, "As you come to him, the living Stone
> —rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him— you also, like
> living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy
> priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through
> Jesus Christ." (NIV) The point is that for those whom believe we are
> rejected from man and chosen by God to offer ourselves as living
> sacrifices before the throne of God to be nailed onto the cross with
> Christ, so the question just as you have stated it is "why should you
> believe."
> I was an atheist, and if believing in Christ was not a supernatural
> act of God, then I would have never believed. I plotted perhaps like
> you to read the scripture and show the world how Christianity was
> false and only believable by stupid people that knew nothing about the
> advancements of science. What I however learned is that their is a
> whole world of people that struggle to believe that they are going to
> be saved when in fact they commit every sin imaginable and hate God
> but eagerly desire his gift of eternal salvation.
> On Oct 28, 4:57 pm, Drafterman <drafter...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Oct 28, 5:39 pm, Mathew Enoch Mount <mmo...@essex1.com> wrote:
> > > Hello,
> > > We learn from definition that God is the greatest imaginable force.
> > > Some people believe that the greatest imaginable force is randomness,
> > > others believe that the greatest imaginable force is the work of their
> > > own hands, others believe that the greatest imaginable force is
> > > themselves, and yet others believe that the greatest imaginable force
> > > is beyond our imagination. Clearly with the frailties of man if we
> > > could imagine the greatest imaginable force then it would be less
> > > powerful then what it would be if it was beyond our imagination.
> > > All of us perhaps to some extent are hostile to God and do not even
> > > know, but some search for God all of their lives while they hide from
> > > him. This is because Adam and Eve hid from God after they had sinned,
> > > and thus they became alienated from God. God had to make for them fur
> > > coats to cloth them before they would come to him and interact with
> > > him in the greater since. God had to sacrifice an animal causing the
> > > shedding of blood to atone for sins before Adam and Eve could be
> > > clothed in robes of righteousness to interact with God.
> > > The message of the cross of Christ is that through his blood he as
> > > purchased us and has given us these robes or righteousness that we may
> > > appear before God in the wedding supper between him and us, and we may
> > > prepare for union with him under the covenant of marriage. We thus
> > > will at some time be one flesh with God because a man will leave his
> > > father and mother’s house to become one flesh by being united to his
> > > wife, and this is why Christ came to the earth to be united to his
> > > wife. Overall, if this seed of God that comes from Christ to bare the
> > > children of God is not implanted into the heart of the unbeliever,
> > > then God will not have children.
> > > The children of God produce good fruit because they are part of the
> > > vine (this vine is Christ), but apart from him every seed that God has
> > > not planted in his vineyard is a weed. These weeds because they do
> > > not produce good fruit will be gathered together and burned in the
> > > stove before the harvest of all the earth occurs. God will gather
> > > together the good fruit and being it into the barn at the end of time
> > > (this is the kingdom of God).
> > This is all nice, but why should I believe it?
> > > On Oct 28, 9:23 am, Drafterman <drafter...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > I'm not sure how non-believers are accepted here, but I am interested
> > > > in serious philosophical discussions about reasons to believe the
> > > > basic premise of theism (A god exists) in general, and Christianity
> > > > specifically.
> > > > I'm not here to belittle or make fun of anyone, but a large portion of
> > > > the population has basically adopted the stance that, not only should
> > > > I believe, but not doing so presents a great risk. In light of this, I
> > > > can only ask, "Why"?
Hello, The fact that you have come to us asking why you should believe gives me some evidence that perhaps God has called you to us through the work of the Holy Ghost. If so, then God is calling you. Remember however that even the soldiers whom crucified Christ said after words, "this is a righteous man." The point is that God has chosen even some of those whom have crucified him. Saint Paul killed Christians before God blinded him and when God blinded him the light entered him, and it was only a supernatural work of God that he was healed and become the person whom wrote most of the New Testament. Thank you, Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com------- Original Message ------- From : Drafterman[mailto:drafter...@gmail.com] Sent : 10/28/2009 7:35:04 PM To : jesus-the-christ@googlegroups.com Cc : Subject : RE: Re: Why believe?
On Oct 28, 8:13 pm, Mathew Enoch Mount <mmo...@essex1.com> wrote: > Hello,
> Perhaps you should not believe the message of the gospel because if > you believe falsely without God giving you the faith to believe then > what would that make you? Judas according to scripture appears to not > believe in the blood atonement of Christ and we know this because > Satan entered him after he took communion, but yet God still had a > plan for Judas because if he had not handed Christ over to be > crucified then how else? Since however you come to us with the > question of why you should believe it is my prayer that God gives you > the faith to believe for Christ did not come into the world to condemn > the world, but to save the world through him.
> Consider the following text as it introduces the letter of first > Peter, "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God's elect, strangers > in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia > and Bithynia, who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of > God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for > obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood: Grace and peace > be yours in abundance." (NIV) The point shows us that his message is > for those whom have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God > the Father through the sanctifying work of the Spirit for obedience to > Jesus Christ through blood atonement. The point is that messages like > this are not for everyone, but only for those whom God has chosen, and > those whom are going to be saved.
> Consider also the following text, "As you come to him, the living Stone > —rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him— you also, like > living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy > priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through > Jesus Christ." (NIV) The point is that for those whom believe we are > rejected from man and chosen by God to offer ourselves as living > sacrifices before the throne of God to be nailed onto the cross with > Christ, so the question just as you have stated it is "why should you > believe."
> I was an atheist, and if believing in Christ was not a supernatural > act of God, then I would have never believed. I plotted perhaps like > you to read the scripture and show the world how Christianity was > false and only believable by stupid people that knew nothing about the > advancements of science. What I however learned is that their is a > whole world of people that struggle to believe that they are going to > be saved when in fact they commit every sin imaginable and hate God > but eagerly desire his gift of eternal salvation.
All arguments have a basis in force. The stronger the argument the more likely you are to believe. Shall I quote Matt, "God is the greatest imaginable force..." To paraphrase Jesus, If a man comes at you with an army of 20,000 and you only have 10,000...a logical response would be to send out a delegate to ask for terms. I ask you, are you a child? If I AM the guy with 20,000, why should I sugar coat it for you?
I've never met an honest atheist. A statement based on my own experience. There may be one or two out there, but I haven't met him/her. They all turn out - after I hold them down and metaphorically kick them in the head for a day or two - to be lying, satanist mother f'ers who want to pull the wool over the eyes of the likes of me. So please - forgive me - if I got no respect for ya.
Hey Drafterman - beside having penchant for the movie "Full metal Jacket" - I think you have bats in your belfry.
Do you seek meaning in your life? Maybe you have some personal issues and questions? Do you find yourself asking, "Is this it, or is there something subtle I'm missing?" Are you puzzled by all of the love many Christians seem to feel? Do you wonder how something that seems so obvious to others seems so nonexistant to you?
Here is an excerpt from my initial post to this group. Perhaps, in conjunction with the questions above , this might give you a stepping off point for dialog with our ministry, and something to ask more specifically about. Then I can zero in on exactly what you mean by "Why should I beleive?". I don't think you want us to reiterate and interpret several thousand years of theology and narrative on the human condition.
And then the question becomes, why exactly dont you believe?
Brothers and Sisters,
What a day! I just had an experience that left me in a state of joyful awe. As many of you who talk with me know, I have been preaching something Brian McLaren called “faithing your life”, rather than struggling to live your faith. This means, rather than trying to find the time and discipline to institute a regimen of religious rituals in your already busy life, you could seek the spiritual meaning in the tasks, moments and circumstances you find yourself in every day. Is that walk to work a metaphor for a spiritual journey in your life? Is it an actual one? And how are all experiences readymade parables? How do your thoughts about these experiences help shape your spirit? Considering there is no filler in life, and every moment is an essential part of the whole, can we take the time to gleen the larger, deeper, truth that our Father’s grace bestows on us every single moment of every single day of our lives? Can we spiritually afford not to? These were the thoughts going through my head as I waited at the bus stop to run an errand at lunch, worrying about being tardy coming back. As I was standing there a young man in his twenties pulled up in a car, smiled kindly, and said, “Do you need a ride?” I remember looking at him, trying to decern if he was someone from work, a student neighbor, or perhaps a grown child of one of my friends that I wasn’t recognizing. I said, “Yes, thanks!” As I got in the passenger side he offered a hand and a smile and introduced himself as David, said he was glad to meet me, and asked “Where to Larry?” I said Church street, and he smiled again and asked “Church huh?” I mumbled something about running errands and such, and asked him, “So, David. What inspired you to such an overt act of kindness? Why did you offer a stranger, some middle-aged man a ride, out of the blue?” What he said next nearly floored me: “Do you believe someone can change there mind, and then change there life by starting all over brand new? Become good, kind, and do the right things unconditionally?” “In fact I do!” I said, trying to collect enough of myself to communicate in a meaningful way. He said, “Well, my life changed yesterday!” “So, you had an epiphany?” “Yes, an epiphany!”, he said almost laughing. As we drove across campus we talked about renewal, goodness, joy, and being perceptive enough to see the meaning of one’s life in context to the ‘big picture’, in a rather light-hearted and happy tone. In no time we were at my destination and stopped, as I had directed. As I turned to exit his car, I thanked him, and he looked me in the eye and said, “Thank you for letting me give you just what you needed. It meant a lot to me!” After a smile and a handshake, off he went. Ladies and gentleman, this moment was ground zero for an explosion of joyful awe. It enveloped me and lifted my heart. If David wasn’t an angel, he certainly was heaven sent!
Furthermore the statement "God is the greatest imaginable force..." is false. He is beyond our imagination. In fact, I think Aristotle defined the imagination as the beginning of all evil.
On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 9:12 AM, Peter VanGee <petervan...@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Drafterman:
> All arguments have a basis in force. The stronger the argument the more > likely you are to believe. Shall I quote Matt, "God is the greatest > imaginable force..." To paraphrase Jesus, If a man comes at you with an > army of 20,000 and you only have 10,000...a logical response would be to > send out a delegate to ask for terms. I ask you, are you a child? If I AM > the guy with 20,000, why should I sugar coat it for you?
> I've never met an honest atheist. A statement based on my own experience. > There may be one or two out there, but I haven't met him/her. They all turn > out - after I hold them down and metaphorically kick them in the head for a > day or two - to be lying, satanist mother f'ers who want to pull the wool > over the eyes of the likes of me. So please - forgive me - if I got no > respect for ya.
> Hey Drafterman - beside having penchant for the movie "Full metal Jacket" - > I think you have bats in your belfry.
Do you suppose a more Peter-acceptable way of saying this might be, "God is the greatest, and all we consciously know of him, intellectually, is what is 'percievable', through his grace and revelation."? I intentionally left off the word 'force' also.
What we may want to offer Draftsman is a interface, rather than an in-your-face...
How are you feeling Peter? Maybe I just haven't engaged you in a while, but you seem very agitated.
-- Brother Larry Roy Woodsmall ON EARTH MINISTRIES
> Do you suppose a more Peter-acceptable way of saying this might be,
> "God is the greatest, and all we consciously know of him,
> intellectually, is what is 'percievable', through his grace and
> revelation."? I intentionally left off the word 'force' also.
> What we may want to offer Draftsman is a interface, rather than an
> in-your-face...
> How are you feeling Peter? Maybe I just haven't engaged you in a
> while, but you seem very agitated.
> --
> Brother Larry Roy Woodsmall
> ON EARTH MINISTRIES
I'm like Jonah, up on the hill - just hoping he doesn't repent. Light up
the fire boys, we're gonna have a bbq. You all gotta try my pork ribs. Ask
anyone who has, they're the best!
Know the Lord,
Pete
On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 11:36 AM, Peter VanGee <petervan...@gmail.com>wrote:
> Define interface. In all honesty, I think he is dick.
> He doesn't believe there is a God. I think he is a liar. Tell me, which
> is tougher to prove - Him not being a liar or there being a God?
> Perhaps these bastards should just go to hell and leave us alone.
> Know the Lord,
> Pete
> On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 10:10 AM, ON EARTH Ministries <
> onearth.ministries.br.woodsm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Brother Pete -
>> Do you suppose a more Peter-acceptable way of saying this might be,
>> "God is the greatest, and all we consciously know of him,
>> intellectually, is what is 'percievable', through his grace and
>> revelation."? I intentionally left off the word 'force' also.
>> What we may want to offer Draftsman is a interface, rather than an
>> in-your-face...
>> How are you feeling Peter? Maybe I just haven't engaged you in a
>> while, but you seem very agitated.
>> --
>> Brother Larry Roy Woodsmall
>> ON EARTH MINISTRIES
On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 10:36 AM, Peter VanGee <petervan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Larry:
> Define interface. In all honesty, I think he is dick.
> He doesn't believe there is a God. I think he is a liar. Tell me, which is
> tougher to prove - Him not being a liar or there being a God?
> Perhaps these bastards should just go to hell and leave us alone.
> Know the Lord,
> Pete
> On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 10:10 AM, ON EARTH Ministries
> <onearth.ministries.br.woodsm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Brother Pete -
>> Do you suppose a more Peter-acceptable way of saying this might be,
>> "God is the greatest, and all we consciously know of him,
>> intellectually, is what is 'percievable', through his grace and
>> revelation."? I intentionally left off the word 'force' also.
>> What we may want to offer Draftsman is a interface, rather than an
>> in-your-face...
>> How are you feeling Peter? Maybe I just haven't engaged you in a
>> while, but you seem very agitated.
>> --
>> Brother Larry Roy Woodsmall
>> ON EARTH MINISTRIES
-- Brother Larry Roy Woodsmall
ON EARTH MINISTRIES
In all honesty, I think both of you are full of crap. What can I say -
these are hard times. You all get the 'boy' you deserve. I AM your mirror
image. Trap? - why should I fear a trap - you'll only fall in it
yourselves.
Know the Lord,
Pete
On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 11:47 AM, ON EARTH Ministries <
> By interface, I meant "a way to hook him up to our good works and
> reflections".
> But what, you think he is baiting us?
> just a nonbeliever looking for an argument? I know you have that covered.
> ;)
> do you percieve a trap?
> On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 10:36 AM, Peter VanGee <petervan...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Hi Larry:
> > Define interface. In all honesty, I think he is dick.
> > He doesn't believe there is a God. I think he is a liar. Tell me, which
> is
> > tougher to prove - Him not being a liar or there being a God?
> > Perhaps these bastards should just go to hell and leave us alone.
> > Know the Lord,
> > Pete
> > On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 10:10 AM, ON EARTH Ministries
> > <onearth.ministries.br.woodsm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Brother Pete -
> >> Do you suppose a more Peter-acceptable way of saying this might be,
> >> "God is the greatest, and all we consciously know of him,
> >> intellectually, is what is 'percievable', through his grace and
> >> revelation."? I intentionally left off the word 'force' also.
> >> What we may want to offer Draftsman is a interface, rather than an
> >> in-your-face...
> >> How are you feeling Peter? Maybe I just haven't engaged you in a
> >> while, but you seem very agitated.
> >> --
> >> Brother Larry Roy Woodsmall
> >> ON EARTH MINISTRIES
> --
> Brother Larry Roy Woodsmall
> ON EARTH MINISTRIES
> Yes, dirty, soiled and broken. I concure. You are alot like the
> angry little voice I hear when i'm frustrated, and/or doubting others,
> myself, God...
> I'm not sure I deserve anything Peter. I really mean that.
> Perhaps in trying too hard I have failed you.
> Or perhaps this is exactly what you need to hear too.
> I don't know for sure, so I pray about it a lot.
> NOTHING YOU CAN SAY OR DO CAN MAKE ME LOVE YOU LESS.
> so, stop trying.
> --
> Brother Larry Roy Woodsmall
> ON EARTH MINISTRIES
On Oct 29, 9:12 am, Peter VanGee <petervan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Drafterman:
> All arguments have a basis in force. The stronger the argument the more
> likely you are to believe. Shall I quote Matt, "God is the greatest
> imaginable force..." To paraphrase Jesus, If a man comes at you with an
> army of 20,000 and you only have 10,000...a logical response would be to
> send out a delegate to ask for terms. I ask you, are you a child? If I AM
> the guy with 20,000, why should I sugar coat it for you?
You are equivocating different uses of the word "force", here. In this
context I am talking about the physical type of force you reference in
the latter part of your statement. The "argument from force" I
referenced is a specific type of logical fallacy whereby a person
attempts to assert the truth of their statements, not through any sort
of logical soundess, but through threats or intimidation. A larger
force, while a good measure to ensure some sort of victory on the
field of battle, does not automatically make the beliefs of that
larger force correct.
> I've never met an honest atheist. A statement based on my own experience.
> There may be one or two out there, but I haven't met him/her. They all turn
> out - after I hold them down and metaphorically kick them in the head for a
> day or two - to be lying, satanist mother f'ers who want to pull the wool
> over the eyes of the likes of me. So please - forgive me - if I got no
> respect for ya.
I'm not contradicting your experience. I'm just mentioning that a
person's honesty has little to do with their religious stance. You can
rest assured that, as a non-believer, I don't believe in Satan either,
and can't be a Satanist.
I'm interested in a serious discussion. So far, it seems you're
interested belittlement. As a tangential discussion, I'd be interested
in learning how you resolve this type of approach with the popular
conception of "Christian" behavior (love thy neighbor) and also with
the purpose of this group, which obstensibly seems to be to bring the
word of God to the skeptic. Are you under the impression that you can
intimidate people into believing? Do you think that calling people
you've just met liars is a efficent method of bringing the word of God
to them? I would imagine that, regardless of the truth of any word of
God you have to bring, your approach would more likely result in them
shutting themselves off to you from the onset. If you are not
interested in convincing skeptics, then why are you a member of this
group?
As I said, these are tangential issues, the primary topic here is: why
should I believe the "word of God"?
> Hey Drafterman - beside having penchant for the movie "Full metal Jacket" -
> I think you have bats in your belfry.
A clear example of how presumption is a risky game. My name has
nothing to do with the movie (the soldier's nickname was "Rafterman"
anyway).
Honestly, no. I'm pretty good at determining, for myself, what my life
means to me.
> Maybe you have some personal issues and questions?
Outside why I should believe in God? No.
> Do you find yourself asking, "Is this it, or is there something subtle
> I'm missing?"
Actually, yes, I do.
> Are you puzzled by all of the love many Christians seem to feel?
No, not really.
> Do you wonder how something that seems so obvious to others seems so
> nonexistant to you?
I understand that. The wonderment usually seems to be from the
Christians, who are puzzled as to why it *isn't* obvious to me.
> Here is an excerpt from my initial post to this group. Perhaps, in
> conjunction with the questions above , this might give you a stepping
> off point for dialog with our ministry, and something to ask more
> specifically about. Then I can zero in on exactly what you mean by
> "Why should I beleive?".
Why should I believe that a God exists and that the Bible is his word?
> I don't think you want us to reiterate and interpret several thousand
> years of theology and narrative on the human condition.
Obviously not, though this raises the question as to why that would be
necessary. There are many people that will never be exposed to such
knowledge, it would be a sad state of affairs if their salvation was
dependent on something they will never have.
> And then the question becomes, why exactly dont you believe?
That's easy: I was never raised to believe. My parents, while
Christians themselves, decided to let me choose for myself. The
natural progression of my life resulted in me believing in God.
> What a day! I just had an experience that left me in a state of
> joyful awe. As many of you who talk with me know, I have been
> preaching something Brian McLaren called “faithing your life”, rather
> than struggling to live your faith. This means, rather than trying to
> find the time
> and discipline to institute a regimen of religious rituals in your
> already busy life, you could seek the spiritual meaning in the tasks,
> moments and circumstances you find yourself in every day. Is that
> walk to work a metaphor for a spiritual journey in your life? Is it
> an actual one? And how are all experiences readymade parables? How do
> your thoughts about these experiences help shape your spirit?
> Considering there is no filler in life, and every moment is an
> essential part of the whole, can we take the time to gleen the larger,
> deeper, truth that our Father’s grace bestows on us every single
> moment of every single day of our lives? Can we spiritually afford
> not to?
> These were the thoughts going through my head as I waited at the bus
> stop to run an errand at lunch, worrying about being tardy coming
> back. As I was standing there a young man in his twenties pulled up
> in a car, smiled kindly, and said, “Do you need a ride?”
> I remember looking at him, trying to decern if he was someone from
> work, a student neighbor, or perhaps a grown child of one of my
> friends that I wasn’t recognizing. I said, “Yes, thanks!”
> As I got in the passenger side he offered a hand and a smile and
> introduced himself as David, said he was glad to meet me, and asked
> “Where to Larry?” I said Church street, and he smiled again and asked
> “Church huh?”
> I mumbled something about running errands and such, and asked him,
> “So, David. What inspired you to such an overt act of kindness? Why
> did you offer a stranger, some middle-aged man a ride, out of the
> blue?”
> What he said next nearly floored me: “Do you believe someone can
> change there mind, and then change there life by starting all over
> brand new? Become good, kind, and do the right things
> unconditionally?”
> “In fact I do!” I said, trying to collect enough of myself to
> communicate in a meaningful way.
> He said, “Well, my life changed yesterday!”
> “So, you had an epiphany?”
> “Yes, an epiphany!”, he said almost laughing.
> As we drove across campus we talked about renewal, goodness, joy, and
> being perceptive enough to see the meaning of one’s life in context to
> the ‘big picture’, in a rather light-hearted and happy tone. In no
> time we were at my destination and stopped, as I had directed.
> As I turned to exit his car, I thanked him, and he looked me in the
> eye and said, “Thank you for letting me give you just what you needed.
> It meant a lot to me!”
> After a smile and a handshake, off he went.
> Ladies and gentleman, this moment was ground zero for an explosion of
> joyful awe. It enveloped me and lifted my heart. If David wasn’t an
> angel, he certainly was heaven sent!
> Brother Larry Roy Woodsmall
> ON EARTH MINISTRIES
On Oct 29, 11:36 am, Peter VanGee <petervan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Larry:
> Define interface. In all honesty, I think he is dick.
> He doesn't believe there is a God. I think he is a liar. Tell me, which is
> tougher to prove - Him not being a liar or there being a God?
We're a long way from proof. The basis of your claim of my dishonesty
is ... well ... nonexistent. Some atheists lied to you, I get it. But
you don't know me.
Neither am I requiring "proof" of God, I think we should just start
with a good reason, then go from there.
> Perhaps these bastards should just go to hell and leave us alone.
Perhaps I was mistaken about the purpose of this group:
"Help us to be prepared with an answer to the skeptic and truth to the
seeker. Dialog with us about both theology and philosophy that we may
insure the word of God is properly represented. We accept the
challenge of 1Peter 3:15 and we need all the help we can get!"
Yes, it comes off as being a group among Christians, discussing
strategy for evangelicalism, but I thought I could leverage this by
coming here as a skeptic and truth seeker. That certainly seems well
within the intentions of this group.
On the flip side, 1 Peter 3:15 says:
"But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give
an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in
you with meekness and fear"
Your approach hardly seems meek. Alternate translations render "fear"
as "respect" and you are explicitly and purposefuly disrespectful.
I only bring this up out of an appreciation of irony - that an atheist
would be more supported of the goal of a Christian discussion group
than a Christian who is a member of said group!
If you are not prepared to accept said challenge, then why come here?
> > Do you suppose a more Peter-acceptable way of saying this might be,
> > "God is the greatest, and all we consciously know of him,
> > intellectually, is what is 'percievable', through his grace and
> > revelation."? I intentionally left off the word 'force' also.
> > What we may want to offer Draftsman is a interface, rather than an
> > in-your-face...
> > How are you feeling Peter? Maybe I just haven't engaged you in a
> > while, but you seem very agitated.
> > --
> > Brother Larry Roy Woodsmall
> > ON EARTH MINISTRIES- Hide quoted text -
> Light up
> the fire boys, we're gonna have a bbq. You all gotta try my pork ribs. Ask
> anyone who has, they're the best!
> Know the Lord,
> Pete
> On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 11:36 AM, Peter VanGee <petervan...@gmail.com>wrote:
> > Hi Larry:
> > Define interface. In all honesty, I think he is dick.
> > He doesn't believe there is a God. I think he is a liar. Tell me, which
> > is tougher to prove - Him not being a liar or there being a God?
> > Perhaps these bastards should just go to hell and leave us alone.
> > Know the Lord,
> > Pete
> > On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 10:10 AM, ON EARTH Ministries <
> > onearth.ministries.br.woodsm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Brother Pete -
> >> Do you suppose a more Peter-acceptable way of saying this might be,
> >> "God is the greatest, and all we consciously know of him,
> >> intellectually, is what is 'percievable', through his grace and
> >> revelation."? I intentionally left off the word 'force' also.
> >> What we may want to offer Draftsman is a interface, rather than an
> >> in-your-face...
> >> How are you feeling Peter? Maybe I just haven't engaged you in a
> >> while, but you seem very agitated.
> >> --
> >> Brother Larry Roy Woodsmall
> >> ON EARTH MINISTRIES- Hide quoted text -
Well, I''m not going to attempt to give you a "Yes Virginia, there is a Santa Claus" run here.
Maybe I'm just getting old, but, who names their kid 'Drafterman' any way?
I guess the Jesus Way, or devotion to God probably doesn't really have anything for you. You seem self-reassured, content, nothing bugging you... You're getting your reward already! Merry Christmas, Drafty!
The Kingdom of Heaven is for the poor, and poor of spirit. Those who are feeling the trials of some sort of poverty, whether it be material, or emotional... Those who are humble, or can at least humble themselves enough to surrender.
You seem to be one of those that are strong and content. Enjoy.
If you arent broken or lacking in some way, you really dont need what "we are smoking here" Because, "We are smoking what we are selling."
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