The Virgin Birth (Conception)

[Israel]

I updated a number of arguments in this article here:

Messianic Apologetics and the Virgin Birth (Conception)
http://jerusalemcouncil.org/articles/apologetics/messianic-jewish-apologetics-virgin-birth/

[suanpu pu]

Shalom to all the members

 

    Yeshua or Yahshua was born for us to saved from our origin sins, we knew.

But, is he born on Dec 25? Can we accept Dec 25 for his birthday and could we

see the date on dec 25 that Yeshua birthday in the holy bible?

Thank you

Cyrus 

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[Char]

cyrus, dec 25th is a pagan celebration of the birth of nimrod.  aka satans birthday if you will.  we should not celebrate birthdays or conception dates either.  this is pagan!  and the latest i have been hearing in christendom is well we know its not Yeshuas real birthday, but it would be his conception date to match up with feast of tabernacles birth.....it makes me want to vomit. we are called to be a set apart people and not follow after the beast.  come out of her my people!  you simply cannot mix paganism and truth and have a kosher mixture.....there is no such thing! Char ~ I fight what you fear! www.shmaministries.com --- On Mon, 12/28/09, suanpu pu <pu.s...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Israel]

Yeshua the Messiah was born on Tishrei 15, that is, the first day of Sukkot (Feast of Tabernacles) which normally takes places in September-October. We find this out because we understand from the gospel narratives that John the Baptist is 6th months in the womb when he leaps in Elizabeth's womb at the arrival of Messiah in Mary's womb, very recently after she conceives. Thus we can place when she conceived Messiah by knowing when John the Baptist was conceived (six months earlier), which places us in the story of his father Zechariah serving in the Temple during the "course of Abijah" which served only two times per year, once in spring, and the other in fall, during Passover. Give one month for the female cycle to ramp up for Elizabeth after having been barren, and viola you have the nice two options of either May/June or Nov/Dec for when John the Baptist was conceived, with exact dates for either option. Six months from Nov/Dec is Passover, yet we don't ask for Messiah to come to our home on Passover - he dies then. Instead we ask for Elijah to come on Passover. So then it makes more sense theologically that the better of the two options is that John the Baptist was conceived in May/June and then 9 months later born on Passover.

So if John the Baptist is conceived in May/June and is born on Passover, then the Messiah, who is six months younger, was conceived six months later after John, the Messiah being conceived in December (Kislev 25 to be exact, not Dec 25) which interestingly enough is the first day of Hannukah; and then born exactly 9 pregnant months later on Tishrei 15 - the first day of Sukkot (Feast of Tabernacles). That both Hannukah and Tabernacles plus Shimoni Azeret are eight day festivals, and with Hannukah being a belated Tabernacles, shows that even the most obvious of conclusions would have Yeshua conceived on Hannukah (light of the world in the midst of darkness), and born on Tabernacles (God with us), and most likely born in a makeshift succah booth out in the manger area - literally "God dwelling with man" as that is what that festival is all about, and it's belated ceremony two months later on Kislev 25 (mirroring that of the first and second pesach for those unable to do the first).

Shalom,

Israel

[Israel]

Should clarify, the course of Abijah did not serve on Pesach (all courses served then), but served rather two months later in May/June.

Israel

[Char]

israel, the 2 Maccabees clearly says that Hannukah is a second Sukkot.  but i dont see the birth of Yeshua in there......

Char ~ I fight what you fear! www.shmaministries.com

--- On Mon, 12/28/09, Israel <isr...@jerusalemcouncil.org> wrote:

[Bryce Henderson]

Char,

Why say that having a birthday celebration is wrong? Does the Bible forbid it? Has Jewish tradition rejected birthday celebrations as pagan?

Thanks,

Bryce

[Israel]

It is important to note that in the scriptures the only two people that are recorded as celebrating a birthday are Pharaoh and Herod.

In conservative Judaism it is acceptable to celebrate birthdays, however the more orthodox you go, the less they are celebrated.

Israel

[Rabbi Paul]

Chiming in on birthdays...to my knowledge only two birthday celebrations are described in the Scriptures, one in the Torah and the other in the Gospels.  Both had two major similarities, they were for pagans and they both culminated in someone being beheaded.  While I don't think there is a specific prohibition on celebrating birthdays by name in Scripture, we are shown through both examples it is something done by pagans...and told in Jer. 10 among other places not to follow in the ways of the pagans. (incidentally, the reason I specifically mention Jer. 10 is that it can easily be used to prove that we should not engage in another time honored pagan practice...that of having a Christmas tree)

Rabbi Paul

__________________________
lyn...@gmail.com
513.373.4200

[Bryce Henderson]

I'm aware of all that. I'm looking for actual rulings that forbid it or discourage it. Does the Talmud mention birthday celebrations?

[Char]

bryce, read the account of job.  it is a pagan tradition.  "on your own day" .....means birthday.  they baked cakes on thier day to the queen of heaven (Ashera).  and long ago it was not something celebrated within judaism.

Char ~ I fight what you fear! www.shmaministries.com

--- On Mon, 12/28/09, Bryce Henderson <iserv...@mac.com> wrote:

[Rabbi Adam J Bernay]

Look, not everything done by pagans is, by definition, sinful.  Pagans breathe.  Pagans eat fruit.  Pagans drink milk.  Should we stop doing any of these things?

[Bryce Henderson]

Here are some Jewish ideas concerning birthday celebration:

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/481087/jewish/How-Do-Jews-Celebrate-Birthdays.htm

Again, really  only interested in Talmudic or other teachings that address birthdays. We are all pretty versed on the "typical" Messianic response to birthdays, but I'm interested in how grounded those ideas are in the traditions of our people. If you're right that they are an evil thing to celebrate then I'm sure the Sages discussed it, right?

I like what the following article says to address the idea of Jews celebrating birthdays:

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2527/jewish/What-Happened-on-Your-Birthday.htm

Comments?

I really don't see any Biblical evidence to suggest that it is evil to remember your day of birth with a feast. It certainly isn't the most important feast of the year, but what's wrong with having a feast that doesn't get too extravagant?

[Char]

Adam, quite shocking coming from a rabbi.....we are not to follow the world.  we are called to be a set apart people.  and not only that, this clearly lines up with kosher living.  how did you miss that boat?

Char ~ I fight what you fear! www.shmaministries.com

--- On Mon, 12/28/09, Rabbi Adam J Bernay <rabb...@live.com> wrote:

[Bryce Henderson]

I was thinking the same thing, but I don't think the argument is convincing. We have Biblical examples of righteous people breathing, eating fruit, and drinking milk to show us that they are acceptable things to do. I think it is better to look at how Scripture does not forbid it and Jewish tradition doesn't seem to either.

[Char]

bryce, jews are not exempt in the world for picking up pagan customs.  perhaps you should read Fossilized Custom by Lew White.  you can download it free on my website as a pdf file.  it addresses paganism and birthdays among many other things....website is below.  which page its on though i cannot remember off hand.

[Israel]

Celebrating one's birthday is not forbidden, neither by scripture nor later by exegesis of the sages.

However, G-d in his wisdom clearly didn't bother with making mention of a positive annual birthday experience in the scriptures, and to that point it must be taken into consideration about how important G-d sees the annual day. The only times birthdays are positive experiences in scripture, are on people's first birthday - the day they enter into this world.

It is wrong to force halacha on someone to never celebrate a birthday, or condemn it as evil - because no such halacha, or belief, in Judaism exists.

It is wrong also however, to force someone to recognize such a day as something to be celebrated, simply for the same reason that it is not that important to G-d when compared to the other days of one's life, especially the day of one's death, such as Messiah's.

These are the facts as far as I am aware. There are extremes on both ends that are avoided simply by the fact that the argument of silence works both ways. To that end, love one another, and honor each other with good deeds.

Shalom,

Israel

[Char]

on the topic i will say this- WWYD?  and it never bothered to mention his birth date in scripture or any celebration of it anually......  nor anyone else's for that matter.  this leads me to believe that it doesnt mean beans to G-d so why should i concern myself with it?

Char ~ I fight what you fear! www.shmaministries.com

--- On Mon, 12/28/09, Israel <isr...@jerusalemcouncil.org> wrote:

[Bryce Henderson]

I *knew* you were pushing his ideas. Lew White is not someone I would consider even close to being credible.

I noticed your comments concerning Adam. I was looking at your website and I wonder why you call yourself a "Rabbi" too? Do you have Rabbinical ordaination? If so, by whom?

[Rabbi Adam J Bernay]

I don't agree, Char.  I think we can take this "nothing the pagans do" thing too far.  Do we stop using the words "Sunday, Monday, Tuesday," etc?  How about "January, February, March," etc?  There are pagan cultures that use fruitcake for pagan religious practices... yet similar recipes are in all cultures, including Jewish.

 

Now, do I think we should have birthday candles on the cake, make a wish and blow them out?  No.  That is obviously magic.  But I just don't see any reason not to celebrate birthdays.

[Rabbi Adam J Bernay]

Bryce, that was precisely my point.  I think we all know such examples.

[Rabbi Adam J Bernay]

Israel, that's brilliant.  A great statement of it.

[Rabbi Adam J Bernay]

Actually, Char, you are incorrect.  Scripture DOES tell us when He was born -- anyone in that culture would've caught it immediately -- and there IS a commanded festival on that date.  It's called SUKKOT.

[Char]

i already said that.....but that is not a command to celebrate the birth.

Char ~ I fight what you fear! www.shmaministries.com

--- On Mon, 12/28/09, Rabbi Adam J Bernay <rabb...@live.com> wrote:

From: Rabbi Adam J Bernay <rabb...@live.com>

[Char]

i can agree with that adam, the problem is- ppl dont stop there usually.  they do the cake, the candles, the funky witch hats etc....and presents.  all things to honor us ourselves when we are blind wretched, naked, poor etc.  i believe it to be vanity myself. as for the calendar months days etc., our group is working on that.  its hard to undo what ppl used their whole life, but it is something we should all be doing.  in fact, i have considered moving to israel to get away from the constant pagan ways here in the US.  there are other reasons of course.....

[Char]

bryce, i find it hard to believe you read all 34 pages of my website in an hour.  and its not just lew whites ideas.  even the jehovas witnesses know the truth about birthdays.......and my creds are there.  look.  read the website.  you might learn something along the way.  enjoy!

[Bryce Henderson]

I'm sorry, but I don't know of many who will accept your ordination. I'm not interested in searching through the 34 pages to find your credentials, but the fact that you're a woman who wears a kippah and tallit gadol suggests that you hold somewhat egalitarian views. If you would be willing to post a direct link to the page that lists your credentials I would be happy to review them.

Since we're on the topic of what is, and isn't, pagan I think it is somewhat pagan for a woman to be an elder. I know that when Moses appointed elders it was not women who were considered. I also know that Paul did not suggest women lead. The whole idea of a woman leading His people is repugnant to me. It seems like rebellion.

Perhaps there were exceptional circumstances like when Deborah stood for Hashem, but I don't think that the exception is the rule. Further, I don't fully understand the Deborah situation. Perhaps some learned men will share what they think about that?

[Char]

well thats scriptural now isnt it?  your sons and daughters will prophecy in those last days.  deborah would have had to be a rabbi to be of the beit din wouldnt she?  orthodox may not accept it, but you are repugnant to me for saying something so shallow to try to invalidate another human being.  one who is unstudied telling another they are invalid and a stench.  your fruits tell me your not of the same following.  your god and my G-d are two different beings.  go to shul and learn something.  you are stiff necked and foolish!  dont even bother with my site.  your words indicate you arent interested in really knowing anyway.  just a lover of quarrelsome things.  i dust myself off and move on.

[Bryce Henderson]

I found where you talk about yourself on your website. I noticed that you had some recent news about your health that might be devastating. I hope that you do not have that stroke or heart attack you spoke of. Shalom.

http://www.shmaministries.vpweb.com/TheRabbisPage.html

[Jeff A]

B"H If I'm not mistaken, the emissary John also tells us in the book of Revelation when he describes the woman (Virgo) giving birth with the dragon (Draco) below her. It's been a while since I read the article, so I'll have to look the source up again, but according to the author, the position of the constellations give use the date of Yeshua's birth, which coincides with the first day of Sukkot.  I'll find it and post it, but I wanted to add this to the discussion.    Blessings in Yeshua!  Jeff          Jeff http://toemunah.blogspot.com/ Matthew 22:37-40 ESV And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. (38) This is the great and first commandment. (39) And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. (40) On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets." -------Original Message-------

From: Rabbi Adam J Bernay

[Jeff A]

B"H Here is the link regarding the information I spoke of. http://ad2004.com/Biblecodes/articles/yeshuabirth5.html It is fairly well documented and cited by the author.    Having said that, maybe we should find something more edifying to discuss that tearing down other people for how the do or do not observe a certain day.  Yeshua came not to condemn, and we are commanded not to judge, except those within our own community.  Building walls keeps people away from the most important news of all, and that is that Yeshua is our kapparah and through Him we have received atonement and salvation.   Blessing in Yeshua our Messiah, the King of Israel!  Jeff

    Jeff http://toemunah.blogspot.com/ Matthew 22:37-40 ESV And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. (38) This is the great and first commandment. (39) And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. (40) On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets." -------Original Message-------

Chiming in on birthdays...to my knowledge only two birthday celebrations are described in the Scriptures, one in the Torah and the other in the Gospels.  Both had two major similarities, they were for pagans and they both culminated in someone being beheaded.  While I don't think there is a specific prohibition on celebrating birthdays by name in Scripture, we are shown through both examples it is something done by pagans..and told in Jer. 10 among other places not to follow in the ways of the pagans. (incidentally, the reason I specifically mention Jer. 10 is that it can easily be used to prove that we should not engage in another time honored pagan practice...that of having a Christmas tree)

[Jeff A]

B"H It would have been better if I had just posted the link to the page in the book that is cited, so here is that as well.  It is a very interesting read and covers what Israel wrote regarding the births of John and Yeshua, as well as the astronomical signs that attest to the date.   Blessings in Yeshua our Messiah!  Jeff

    Jeff http://toemunah.blogspot.com/ Matthew 22:37-40 ESV And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. (38) This is the great and first commandment. (39) And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. (40) On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets." -------Original Message-------

From: Jeff A Date: 12/28/09 20:07:01

Chiming in on birthdays...to my knowledge only two birthday celebrations are described in the Scriptures, one in the Torah and the other in the Gospels.  Both had two major similarities, they were for pagans and they both culminated in someone being beheaded.  While I don't think there is a specific prohibition on celebrating birthdays by name in Scripture, we are shown through both examples it is something done by pagans..and told in Jer. 10 among other places not to follow in the ways of the pagans. (incidentally, the reason I specifically mention Jer. 10 is that it can easily be used to prove that we should not engage in another time honored pagan practice...that of having a Christmas tree)

[Jeff A]

B"H  Sorry, I forgot the link.  My apologies for the multiple posts. http://www.askelm.com/star/star006.htm

Chiming in on birthdays...to my knowledge only two birthday celebrations are described in the Scriptures, one in the Torah and the other in the Gospels.  Both had two major similarities, they were for pagans and they both culminated in someone being beheaded.  While I don't think there is a specific prohibition on celebrating birthdays by name in Scripture, we are shown through both examples it is something done by pagans.and told in Jer. 10 among other places not to follow in the ways of the pagans. (incidentally, the reason I specifically mention Jer. 10 is that it can easily be used to prove that we should not engage in another time honored pagan practice...that of having a Christmas tree)

[Israel]

The whole idea of a woman leading His people is repugnant to me. It seems like rebellion.

Perhaps there were exceptional circumstances like when Deborah stood for Hashem, but I don't think that the exception is the rule. Further, I don't fully understand the Deborah situation.

...
orthodox may not accept it, but you are repugnant to me for saying something so shallow to try to invalidate another human being..

I am only addressing this publicly since, well, these statements were posted publicly. When replying to someone personally on the mail list, please double-check to make sure the email you are replying to is not for the mailing list, but for the individual.

I think it would be worthwhile to keep personal opinions out of this mailing list when such could be construed as insulting to others - as I think this was taken personally in that you found the person you are speaking about to be repugnant, and vice versa on the reply. The last thing we need is for lashon hara to sprout here.

The only way we've survived as a group is by staying scholarly without resulting to personal attacks, and I simply encourage all parties involved to cool off a bit and reflect on what would be edifying one another rather than destroying.

Please attack and vigorously debate theologies, but not people. Please build up and encourage one another in Messiah. Everyone on this list is a mature follower of Messiah who loves G-d and others - or at least I expect them to be if they've managed to survive this long here. I don't need to explain that with a group of people with divergent opinions from all walks of Messianic Judaism and Christianity that we of all people must show mercy, forgiveness, and more mercy to each other, both in our intentions and in our words. Let's keep acting like what we say we are: disciples of Messiah. I think we can do it.

Now on to the birthday conclusion...

Shalom,

Israel

[David Israel]

I agree - wholeheartedly - our contention is for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints - not with "people" - for we wrestle not with flesh and blood" -------- 

As for the rest of this debate ---- I cannot rightly see why anyone at all is getting so heated up about it. Perhaps I need enlightenment. 

Shalom. 
 

David

---

From: Israel <isr...@jerusalemcouncil.org>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, 29 December, 2009 3:03:59

Subject: Re: [JC] The Virgin Birth (Conception)

Please attack and vigorously debate theologies, but not people. Please build up and encourage one another in Messiah. Everyone on this list is a mature follower of Messiah who loves G-d and others - or at least I expect them to be if they've managed to survive this long here. I don't need to explain that with a group of people with divergent opinions from all walks of Messianic Judaism and Christianity that we of all people must show mercy, forgiveness, and more mercy to each other, both in our intentions and in our words. Let's keep acting like what we say we are: disciples of Messiah.. I think we can do it.

Now on to the birthday conclusion...

Shalom,

Israel

[David Israel]

Shalom - now what exactly is this contention all about? would someone care to enlighten me? (because it certainly seems quite heated all of a sudden)  How about you?

Waiting and hoping.

Shalom Blessings in Moshiach ha Yeshua 
 

David

---

From: Char <troop...@yahoo.com>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, 29 December, 2009 1:49:02

Subject: Re: [JC] The Virgin Birth (Conception)

well thats scriptural now isnt it?  your sons and daughters will prophecy in those last days.  deborah would have had to be a rabbi to be of the beit din wouldnt she?  orthodox may not accept it, but you are repugnant to me for saying something so shallow to try to invalidate another human being.  one who is unstudied telling another they are invalid and a stench.  your fruits tell me your not of the same following.  your god and my G-d are two different beings.  go to shul and learn something.  you are stiff necked and foolish!  dont even bother with my site.  your words indicate you arent interested in really knowing anyway.  just a lover of quarrelsome things.  i dust myself off and move on. Char ~ I fight what you fear! www.shmaministries.com --- On Mon, 12/28/09, Bryce Henderson <iserv...@mac.com> wrote:

From: Bryce Henderson <iserv...@mac.com> Subject: Re: [JC] The Virgin Birth (Conception) To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com Date: Monday, December 28, 2009, 8:42 PM

I'm sorry, but I don't know of many who will accept your ordination. I'm not interested in searching through the 34 pages to find your credentials, but the fact that you're a woman who wears a kippah and tallit gadol suggests that you hold somewhat egalitarian views. If you would be willing to post a direct link to the page that lists your credentials I would be happy to review them.

Since we're on the topic of what is, and isn't, pagan I think it is somewhat pagan for a woman to be an elder. I know that when Moses appointed elders it was not women who were considered. I also know that Paul did not suggest women lead. The whole idea of a woman leading His people is repugnant to me.. It seems like rebellion.

Perhaps there were exceptional circumstances like when Deborah stood for Hashem, but I don't think that the exception is the rule. Further, I don't fully understand the Deborah situation. Perhaps some learned men will share what they think about that?

On 28-Dec-09, at 6:31 PM, Char wrote:

bryce, i find it hard to believe you read all 34 pages of my website in an hour.  and its not just lew whites ideas.  even the jehovas witnesses know the truth about birthdays........and my creds are there.  look.  read the website.  you might learn something along the way.  enjoy!

cyrus, dec 25th is a pagan celebration of the birth of nimrod.  aka satans birthday if you will.  we should not celebrate birthdays or conception dates either.  this is pagan!  and the latest i have been hearing in christendom is well we know its not Yeshuas real birthday, but it would be his conception date to match up with feast of tabernacles birth......it makes me want to vomit.

Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this email are those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions held by JerusalemCouncil.org.. If you have questions about this discussion group, send email to con...@jerusalemcouncil.org.

[Char]

some dictionary results below......in a nutshell women in leadership are a stench, disgusting, and the use of the word is a fighting word, hostile, and antagonistic according to the dictionary.   i believe this was a personal attack by a person who intended to be hostile and antagonistic, stating women in leadership have a stench and are disgusting.  have your opinions, but to post this on a group to rally up discord against one is plain wrong!  that is not of Yeshua.  not to mention that democracy will NOT rule in the kingdom.  this persons line of thinking is not in accord with G-d and i find it diametrically opposed to the Most High.  Judaism teaches value in every human being, even if orthodoxy doesnt recognize women as leaders, they dont slam them into a wall.  let me guess- the author is a direct descendant of hitler?  did he run the ovens too?  this is not a simple distaste, this is a war of words and he even stated he was leading up to something regarding lew whites materials.  it is of ha satan to lay in wait with tricks, traps, and snares......so the comment is repugnant to me.  as i said i dust myself off and move on.   there is a work to be done before Yeshua comes again.  many people to be reached.  women lead because not enough men are up to it i imagine.  they are too busy stroking their egos to do a work, hence the comment in scripture that your sons AND DAUGHTERS will prophecy in those days.  if you dont like women in leadership then lead as your supposed to.  stop complaining.  the work will get done if the men wont do it then the women will.  if noone called on His name the rocks would cry out.  G-d says it WILL get done.  if that is repugnant to you- get your rabbi ordination and do what i do and do it better.  take it up with the Most High that you dont like His word.  but His word says my word will not come back void.....   i dont have time for small minded games.  i am an incredibly busy person.  i do a lot in ministry.  this is a huge slap in the face coming from a man who admits he is not well studied.  your welcome to remove me from the list.  i dont get online to quarrel but to do ministry.  if you find another human being disgusting then your not a jew, thats not the way of my people.  i will not stand for this.  no-one should be asked to tolerate such behavior.  if i were in israel and talking with jews and sharing messiah with them and was spit on- it would be much more tolerable.  but to be hunted down attacked by your own is what is repugnant.  then to post another slap- gee i hope you dont have that heart attack or stroke is sickening.  what am i to think?   ~from the stinking disgusting female rabbi repugnant  - 4 dictionary results re⋅pug⋅nant    /rɪˈpʌgnənt/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [ri-puhg-nuhnt] Show IPA Use repugnant in a Sentence See web results for repugnant See images of repugnant –adjective 1. distasteful, objectionable, or offensive: a repugnant smell. 2. making opposition; averse. 3. opposed or contrary, as in nature or character. Origin: 1350–1400; ME repugnaunt < MF < L repugnant- (s. of repugnāns, prp. of repugnāre), equiv. to repugn(āre) to repugn + -ant- -ant Related forms: re⋅pug⋅nant⋅ly, adverb Synonyms: 3. antagonistic, adverse, hostile.     Legal Dictionary Main Entry: re·pug·nant Pronunciation: ri-'p&g-n&nt Function: adjective : characterized by contradiction and irreconcilability repugnant to the Act —M. A. Kelly> Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law, © 1996 Merriam-Webster, Inc. Cite This Source   re·pug·nant   (rĭ-pŭg'nənt)    adj.   Arousing disgust or aversion; offensive or repulsive: morally repugnant behavior. Logic Contradictory; inconsistent. [Middle English, antagonistic, from Old French, from Latin repugnāns, repugnant-, present participle of repugnāre, to fight against; see repugn.] re·pug'nant·ly adv. The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition Copyright © 2009 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved. Cite This Source   Word Origin & History repugnant  1387, from L. repugnantem (nom. repugnans), prp. of repugnare "to resist," from re- "back" + pugnare "to fight" (see pugnacious). Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2001 Douglas Harper Cite This Source

Char ~ I fight what you fear! www.shmaministries.com

--- On Mon, 12/28/09, David Israel <eliy...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

[Angel Ricardo Marceló Díaz]

Things have a command, and Rabbi Shaul Shimon Keiffer whether evidenced in his writings to the early messianic communities ....



Please let us not take peace from the one who opposes the Order of the Most High, without a doubt is a misinterpretation of sacred texts and their uses out of context, both men and women have a special plan in mind Eternal ...

1 Timothy 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

Genesis 2:22 And the rib which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman and brought her to the man.

For man did not come from woman, but woman from man really impresses Simon was not created because of the woman, but woman because of hombre.Por Therefore, women should have a symbol of authority on her head , ángeles.Sin because of the embargo, in the Lord, nor woman independent of man nor man independent mujerPorque as woman came from man, so man is born of woman, and all things proceed of God.

1 Corinthians 11: 8

2009/12/28 Char <troop...@yahoo.com>

--
אנחל ר'כרדו מרסלו דיאז

[Bryce Henderson]

This is VERY cool... thanks for sharing it.

http://ad2004.com/Biblecodes/articles/xmas_star.swf

[Rabbi Adam J Bernay]

It isn't?  I disagree.

[Rabbi Adam J Bernay]

From: Char
Sent: Monday, December 28, 2009 5:29 PM

> i can agree with that adam, the problem is- ppl dont stop there usually.
> they do the cake, the candles, the funky witch hats etc....and presents.
> all things to honor us ourselves when we are blind wretched, naked,
> poor etc. i believe it to be vanity myself.

Well, then you shouldn't have a birthday party. I also think the weird hats
are a bad idea, but what's wrong with presents?

> as for the calendar months days etc., our group is working on that.
> its hard to undo what ppl used their whole life, but it is something
> we should all be doing.

"Our group"? Do you mean the Jerusalem Council? If so, then I will not be
a part of this group anymore. To suggest we should stop using the Gregorian
calendar is just silly. We have to live in this culture, and if we start
with what you're suggesting, we cannot live in this culture and will not be
able to be a witness to it.

> in fact, i have considered moving to israel to get away from the
> constant pagan ways here in the US.

If you think moving to Israel will get you away from pagan culture, you're
wrong...

Adam

[Rabbi Adam J Bernay]

Your website already turns me off from the moment I open it up and music starts automatically.

----- Original Message -----

From: Char

To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

[Char]

adam, it is the wedding dance song.  it is pretty popular in messianic circles......if you read the page about music though you would understand the music content and why its there.

Char ~ I fight what you fear! www.shmaministries.com

--- On Mon, 12/28/09, Rabbi Adam J Bernay <rabb...@live.com> wrote:

From: Rabbi Adam J Bernay <rabb...@live.com>

[Rabbi Adam J Bernay]

It's not that the song is BAD.  But having something come on automatically is annoying, it clogs up bandwidth, etc.

[Dena4Yeshua]

wow, I don't usually reply but there sure is a lot of testosterone on here today. Although I do not agree with women leading, I do disagree with the attack going on here.  As a Jewish believer in Mashiach Yeshua this totally does not glorify our L-rd and probably grieves Him. I think you all need to carefully read brother Israel's statement and take heed. BrYce, I love you brother but you have a prideful "know-it-all" Pharisee spirit that is really a turn off. You have a attacked me several times on FB for my comments. I truly think you either do not like women, or you have some huge control male issues you need to get over. Let's get back to what Scripture says, (not the Pharisees) and praise our Father in Heaven Sh'ma Y'israel Adonai Eloheinu, Adonai Echad - Hear O Israel The Lord is our God, The Lord is One - Deuteronomy 6:4      ~Praise Be To God~ Yeshua Is Coming! Are You Ready? Every Knee Shall Bow Every Tongue Shall Confess Yeshua HaMashiach (Jesus the Christ) is Lord!     "FAITH SEES THE INVISIBLE, BELIEVES THE INCREDIBLE, AND RECEIVES THE IMPOSSIBLE."

--- On Mon, 12/28/09, Rabbi Adam J Bernay <rabb...@live.com> wrote:

From: Rabbi Adam J Bernay <rabb...@live.com>

[Israel]

The person is referring to their group best as I can tell.

Just a note that this is attached at the end of every email this list sends out:

Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this email are those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions held by JerusalemCouncil.org. If you have questions about this discussion group, send email to con...@jerusalemcouncil.org.

Unless it comes from someone with a jerusalemcouncil.org address, then you can be 100% certain any other view or opinion being expressed is not official nor can be considered 100% representative of those who volunteer at the organization. We provide the format, and the moderation, and the "direction" if you will of topics. The majority at JC are orthodox, the rest are conservadox, and conservative - much like the members of the greater mailing list group of which you all are a part of. An unnamed extreme minority may be reform-leaning, and some reconstructionist (though we do our best to reach them and convince them to turn from the dark side of the force!). A view visitors are independent messianics who often fit in the reform category, and even one member of this list isn't even a follower of Messiah Yeshua but certainly is a conservative Jew. However the overall bent of JC and this list is orthodox, and the majority would like to keep it that way only because there are other organizations outside of JC that exist to push agendas to the contrary and there isn't one serving the orthodox community and for now, JC is all there is. I myself am a Chassid - ultra orthodox, and I hope to do my best by G-d's grace to lead us to the next level of realizing the JC vision.

On the topic at hand, my stance is that I see Torah being very clear concerning G-ds preferred model of authority, and I don't think there are many that would disagree with G-d's preferred way of doing things. However, just because something is G-d preferred doesn't mean it's G-d commanded - clarified to mean that there is some room for exceptions which scripture gives a wonderful example about concerning the judge, shofet, Deborah who Israel would come to hear her mishpatim - judgments. I would venture to say the answer to the question as to how she can be a shofet is found in Torah, and I encourage parties on both ends to consider making their case - from Torah. Obviously there is one to be made, unless we hold the authors of Judges to be adding to Torah.

I am not about to, however, engage in tearing down a congregation and its leader, and so I encourage those that want to pursue this topic further, to consider removing personal questions and jabs from their posts.

If there is another outburst directed toward individuals in this thread, we reserve the right for the sake of peace to put this topic on hold and even put people on temporary moderation (meaning posts are approved by moderator first for a time). So please, let's not go there. :)

Shalom,

Israel


Now for the content I was intending to reply to:

> as for the calendar months days etc., our group is working on that.
> its hard to undo what ppl used their whole life, but it is something
> we should all be doing.

"Our group"?  Do you mean the Jerusalem Council?  If so, then I will not be
a part of this group anymore.  To suggest we should stop using the Gregorian
calendar is just silly.  We have to live in this culture, and if we start
with what you're suggesting, we cannot live in this culture and will not be
able to be a witness to it.

 Now Adam you do bring up some good points. I know some Messianics who think pronouncing the names of the days of the week or the names of the month, is something that is transgressing Torah. I think it would be a worthwhile discussion to ask why someone believes this, especially in light of the fact that the Torah itself, which is read in the synagogues on Sabbath, names out the names of foreign gods which are not only heard on the cantor's lips, but sung. Obviously if the Torah is intended to be read aloud, then certainly the Torah teaches us the halacha whereby one may say the name of a foreign god.

Examining this would be beneficial for those Messianics who are holding to this viewpoint, and I think it would make a good article to help set the record straight - using Torah arguments, and not arguments of absurdity.

Shalom,

Israel