[jazz_guitar] On "Blue Bossa"
John Amato
Here's what I use and teach on "Blue Bossa" NOTE: This is only "One" approach -- I've seen and used other approaches to achieve 'different' improvisational sound(s) -- and it's a good idea to experiment. But the one below is what I've 'grown accustomed' to -- BTW, you supply the key, below is the generic for analysis ... | IIm7b5 | V | Im7 | |
--> modulation to Db major:
| II | V | I | |
--> back to C minor:
| IIm7b5 | V | Im7 | IIm7b5 V |
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funkifized34
Well, that's the way I play and teach it as well. I can't really hear the Nbviously note on the chords McCoy plays on the original, nor the A note. I love the chart that Ager has for the tune, but that Cm6 chord screams Melodic Minor to me (I understand that some people like to use Dorian over that; I don't), but I'm trying to get a better sense of the composer's original intent. Of course, staunch Classical players will say that there is no such thing as a im7 chord...
I prefer the Cm7 sound, myself. If I'm going to superimpose Dorian over the my chord, I generally find that I'm comping alternating Cm7 and Cm6 chords. In such a case, I would consider the tonic chord the Cm7.
I guess my question is how many people hear this as im6(imin/Maj7?) as opposed to im7? Jimmy Bribing hears it as im7, and I'm inclined to agree. Do I need to set up a Jimmy Bruno/Chuck Sher mudwrestling match?
--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, John Amato <jamato316@...> wrote:
>
> Here's what I use and teach on "Blue Bossa"
>
> NOTE: This is only "One" approach -- I've seen and used other approaches to achieve 'different' improvisational sound(s) -- and it's a good idea to experiment.
>
> But the one below is what I've 'grown accustomed' to -- BTW, you supply the key, below is the generic for analysis ...
>
> | Im7 | | IVm7 | |
> | IIm7b5 | V | Im7 | |
> --> modulation to Db major:
> | II | V | I | |
> --> back to C minor:
> | IIm7b5 | V | Im7 | IIm7b5 V |
>
> - Blue Bossa is in the key of C minor.
> - On bars 1 to 8 and 13 to 16 use the C minor scale (C Aeolian) or C blues scale.
> - There's a modulation to Db major on bar 9 that lasts until bar 12. It's a regular II V I, you can play the Db major scale there.
>
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akmbirch
--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "funkifized34" <Funkifized@...> wrote:
>
> Well, that's the way I play and teach it as well. I can't really
> hear the Nbviously note on the chords McCoy plays on the original,
> nor the A note. I love the chart that Ager has for the tune, but
> that Cm6 chord screams Melodic Minor to me (I understand that some
> people like to use Dorian over that; I don't), but I'm trying to
> get a better sense of the composer's original intent. Of course,
> staunch Classical players will say that there is no such thing as a
> im7 chord...
Kenny Dorham, Trumpet is the composer, he is playing on the "Page One"
recording. His solo gives you a clue as to what he wanted. McCoy Tyner plays piano on the recording and I humbly suggest that he would
be playing in agreement with Kenny Dorham's compositional intent, even
if he said "Hey, Kenny what do you think of this?"
Cm6 is not CmMaj7, the intent is not Melodic Minor but Dorian Tonic.
> I prefer the Cm7 sound, myself. If I'm going to superimpose Dorian
> over the my chord, I generally find that I'm comping alternating
> Cm7 and Cm6 chords. In such a case, I would consider the tonic
> chord the Cm7.
McCoy Tyner does that kind of alternation and more, except when he resolves the tune. IMO, The tune tips towards Cm6 (Dorian) tonic.
> I guess my question is how many people hear this as im6(imin/Maj7?)
> as opposed to im7?
The question is what is the tonic chord heard on the recording? Is it Im6 or Im7? (IMO, ImMaj7 is not the intent it is a totally different thing in jazz)
As you suggest it's useful to try to ascertain the composers intent. Of course as this is jazz you can choose to play it like the recording or anyway you want!
--
Alisdair MacRae Birch
Guitarist/Bassist/Educator/Arranger
http://www.alisdair.com
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Bob Hansmann
Hi Alidair,
> (IMO, ImMaj7 is not the intent it is a totally different thing in jazz)
That's not just your opinion. It is a totally thing in music, regardless
of genre. When musicians interchange them freely, it certainly is not
the end of the world, but they are not the same tonal implication.
best,
Bobby
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dpkingbluesguitar
"There's a modulation to Db major on bar 9"
On the eighth bar I like to play a 6 chord because I like to sound of a major turning to minor, so in C it would be Eb maj6 turns to Eb minor seven then the Ab dom. There is some nice chromaticism in there.
I like Dexter Gordan's Blue Bossa on Biting the Apple 1976
--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, John Amato <jamato316@...> wrote:
> | Im7 | | IVm7 | |
> | IIm7b5 | V | Im7 | |
> --> modulation to Db major:
> | II | V | I | |
> --> back to C minor:
> | IIm7b5 | V | Im7 | IIm7b5 V |
>
> - Blue Bossa is in the key of C minor.
> - On bars 1 to 8 and 13 to 16 use the C minor scale (C Aeolian) or C blues scale.
> - There's a modulation to Db major on bar 9 that lasts until bar 12. It's a regular II V I, you can play the Db major scale there.
>
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Kevin
Blue Bossa has been discussed in the past on this thread. I remember that fact for two reasons:
1) I had written in the threads that my favorite version is on some "NO ALBUM NAME" CD of George Benson that I have...he's playing with a trio (him, piano, bass). The outside cover shows a pic of him singing into a mic, but there are no vocals at all on the disc (thankfully. GB is an awesome singer, but I love to hear him play w/o the scatting over it.).
2) a part of that discussion was something about how jazzers don't play the entire song... that we hear the common form, but that "so & so" (Tal Farlow?) plays a section that you don't hear any more. Anyone know what I"m talking about? I'd love to try and find that particular arrangement to hear.
Its interesting that this song has popped up in discussion, because I play rhythm guitar for a big band and rhythm banjo for a dixieland band. The dixie players all play in the big band. ANYWAY, we were recently talking about adding a straight ahead jazz version of blue bossa to our dixie gigs, just coz I like it and wanna try it (those guys are nice to me, even if I genre break the mold sometimes.!)
Thanks,
Kevin
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Chris Smart
Hmm Kevin, that's interesting. I looked, and Blue Bossa isn't on
that otherwise excelent 7-disc Tal Farlow set.
Google isn't turning up much either.
Pat Martino burns over it on the album Cream though, but it's the
standard version we've all heard.
Chris
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John Amato
I've got pretty much all Tal recorded as a leader and sideman, but I don't recall him ever recording "Blue Bossa" ... if he did, it alluded me ...
Hmm Kevin, that's interesting. I looked, and Blue Bossa isn't on
that otherwise excelent 7-disc Tal Farlow set.
Google isn't turning up much either.
Pat Martino burns over it on the album Cream though, but it's the
standard version we've all heard.
Chris
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Paul Sametz
--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "Kevin" <kevro2000@...> wrote:
>
> Blue Bossa has been discussed in the past on this thread. <snip>
>
> 2) a part of that discussion was something about how jazzers don't
> play the entire song... that we hear the common form, but that "so &
> so" (Tal Farlow?) plays a section that you don't hear any more.
> Anyone know what I"m talking about? I'd love to try and find that
> particular arrangement to hear.
>
Hi Kevin,
Thanks for bringing that up; it has been a very busy day on the bulletin board, many good things were said about this great tune. But it was I who wrote last year in praise of the Blue Bossa played by Kenny Burrell in 1979 on the album Moon & Sand.
I made some comments about the chord structure here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftE9SMZVFjw
I have never heard another recording of this song that has a Bridge to it. Once you try it, you will never want to go back, no matter how fine the original recording - it seems Kenny Dorham only wrote half a song!
Kenny rules!
-Ammo
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hessj1gj
Some of you mentioned some subs you use on this tune which got me thinking. Here's a quick head arrangement with my subs.
George
http://soundcloud.com/ghess1000/bluebossa
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Chris Smart
I couldn't find anything with Google/Youtube.
At 11:26 PM 11/8/2012, you wrote:
>
>
>I've got pretty much all Tal recorded as a
>leader and sideman, but I don't recall him ever
>recording "Blue Bossa" ... if he did, it alluded me ...
>
>
>On Nov 8, 2012, at 9:24 PM, Chris Smart wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>Hmm Kevin, that's interesting. I looked, and Blue Bossa isn't on
>>that otherwise excelent 7-disc Tal Farlow set.
>>Google isn't turning up much either.
>>
>>Pat Martino burns over it on the album Cream though, but it's the
>>standard version we've all heard.
>>
>>Chris
>>
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>><http://www.ctsmastering.com/>http://www.ctsmastering.com
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>
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Kevin
There is probably a way to search forum for this, but I'll have to wait til later.. its probably been a couple of years since it was discussed, but I distinctly remember the discussion of an extra-section of music that "so & so" played that no one else does.
Kevin
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funkifized34
I don't agree. Does C6 have the same tonal implication as C7? Is there no implied difference between C6 and C13?
--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, Bob Hansmann <bobbybmusic@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Alidair,
> > (IMO, ImMaj7 is not the intent it is a totally different thing in jazz)
>
> That's not just your opinion. It is a totally thing in music, regardless
> of genre. When musicians interchange them freely, it certainly is not
> the end of the world, but they are not the same tonal implication.
>
> best,
> Bobby
>
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JVeg...@aol.com
JV
Juan Vega
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Bob Hansmann
On 11/11/2012 7:30 PM, JVeg...@aol.com wrote:
> Does C6 have the same tonal implication as C7? No. C6 has a major
> quality, while C7 has a dominant quality.
C6 has the same tonal implication as Cmaj7. Do you not know this?
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Terry Petty
C13 is a dominant chord, with the b7.
C6 is a major chord, without it. More like Cmaj7 or C6/9.
Right?
Terry
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JVeg...@aol.com
JV
Juan Vega
C6 has
the same tonal implication as Cmaj7. Do you not know
this?
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Kent
--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, JVegaTrio@... wrote:
>
> Does C6 have the same tonal implication as C7? No. C6 has a major quality,
> while C7 has a dominant quality.
>
> Is there no implied difference between C6 and C13? There's quite a
> difference. They function differently.
Very basic pattern here'
By the way this is not me playing.
Kent
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John Amato
Is there no implied difference between C6 and C13? There's quite a difference. They function differently.Cheers,
JV
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John Amato
Of course they do ... and bless "Tonal Gravity" for the difference (viva la diference) all one needs do is "Listen" the 6th in a C6 and the 13th, albeit a 6th up a structure, are not wedded to the same harmonic family .. and Juan, you mentioned it and I'll repeat it, one is "major" tonality and the other is "Dominant" tonality ... and the "Ear" hears the discerning difference and flavor of the "Tritone" in the Dom. 13th that rubs between the 3rd and b7th and is a major t7th distance apart from the 13th ...
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funkifized34
That's my point. Similarly, Cm6 is "minor" tonality, and Cm7 is "subdominant" quality.
--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, John Amato <jamato316@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Nov 11, 2012, at 8:50 PM, John Amato wrote:
>
> > Of course they do ... and bless "Tonal Gravity" for the difference (viva la diference) all one needs do is "Listen" the 6th in a C6 and the 13th, albeit a 6th up a structure, are not wedded to the same harmonic family .. and Juan, you mentioned it and I'll repeat it, one is "major" tonality and the other is "Dominant" tonality ... and the "Ear" hears the discerning difference and flavor of the "Tritone" in the Dom. 13th that rubs between the 3rd and b7th and is a major t7th distance apart from the 13th ...
>
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funkifized34
Correct. Similar to why Cm6 is more like Cm/Maj7. They have tonic minor quality, as opposed to Cm7 which has subdominant function. We break this rule at times, but I consider Cm6 a Melodic Minor chord.
--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, Terry Petty <drglow@...> wrote:
>
> Ooh! Ooh! I think I know this one.
> C13 is a dominant chord, with the b7.
> C6 is a major chord, without it. More like Cmaj7 or C6/9.
> Right?
> Terry
>
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JVeg...@aol.com
JV
Juan Vega
Correct. Similar to why Cm6 is more like Cm/Maj7. They have tonic
minor quality, as opposed to Cm7 which has subdominant function. We break this
rule at times, but I consider Cm6 a Melodic Minor chord.
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John Amato
Let me ask a rhetoric question:
To each his/her musically "own", but I hear Cm6 more like an F7, unless it's the tonic chord, like "Summertime" in Cm. I have no idea what a "melodic minor chord" is, and wonder what you mean by "subdominant function". This is exactly the reason I find this kind of "talk" worthless; it means nothing unless somebody is referring to a musical context. I don't hear/consider Cm6 like Cm/Maj7m, Cm6 leans more towards F7/9 to me because of the tritone bet'n A and Eb, but if your approach works, that's cool. Enlighten me, what is a "Melodic Minor chord"? That's a new term for me.Cheers,
JV
Juan VegaIn a message dated 11/11/2012 8:19:59 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, Funki...@hotmail.com writes:Correct. Similar to why Cm6 is more like Cm/Maj7. They have tonic minor quality, as opposed to Cm7 which has subdominant function. We break this rule at times, but I consider Cm6 a Melodic Minor chord.
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Brian Kelly
This isn�t written in stone and there are some qualifiers and some consideration given to which octave the notes are played in but basic idea behind describing chords in this manner was to help give you an idea of how that chord was meant to be voiced.
I don�t know where I learned that system when I was young or if it was just common knowledge then but I most likely learned it officially from taking correspondence courses from Dick Grove. Juan studied there as well, I think. It will be interesting to see if he learned it there because it is really a concept an arranger would understand.
Brian
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John Amato
Let me see if I can add some light here to both sides of this analysis: minor sixth chords can function as either i chords or iv chords -- tritone be damned, they function as tonic minor or subdominant minor sounds. For example, the Dm6 in the key of C, has a dominant sound, aka more like some type of G7 than some type of F.
To each his/her musically "own", but I hear Cm6 more like an F7, unless it's the tonic chord, like "Summertime" in Cm. I have no idea what a "melodic minor chord" is, and wonder what you mean by "subdominant function". This is exactly the reason I find this kind of "talk" worthless; it means nothing unless somebody is referring to a musical context. I don't hear/consider Cm6 like Cm/Maj7m, Cm6 leans more towards F7/9 to me because of the tritone bet'n A and Eb, but if your approach works, that's cool. Enlighten me, what is a "Melodic Minor chord"? That's a new term for me.Cheers,
JV
Juan VegaIn a message dated 11/11/2012 8:19:59 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, Funki...@hotmail.com writes:Correct. Similar to why Cm6 is more like Cm/Maj7. They have tonic minor quality, as opposed to Cm7 which has subdominant function. We break this rule at times, but I consider Cm6 a Melodic Minor chord.
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JV
Juan Vega
Let me
see if I can add some light here to both sides of this analysis: minor sixth chords can
function as either i chords or iv chords -- tritone be damned, they function
as tonic minor or subdominant minor sounds. For example, the Dm6 in the key of
C, has a dominant sound, aka more like some type of G7 than some type of
F.
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John Amato
Minor sixth chords yield a decidedly tonic minor sound, as does the major sixth chord. They also sound great as iv chords in minor keys, aka subdominant minor chords -- the D minor sixth in the key of A minor, is the iv chord. As you well know, the ii chord in C Major, D minor, functions always as a pre-dominant (aka sub-dominant) chord that prepares our ears for the V chord. So, well, you're right that D minor sixth, as a ii chord in the key of C, is bound to sound like a rootless V9 chord, not a ii chord (in terms of function).
Hi John,I'm going to disagree here. Minor 6th chords are dominant 9th chords w/o a root. If they aren't being used in a "tonic" situation, aka "Summertime", then all bets are off. These chords don't function as i or iv chords, they are V7 (9ths) especially if the bass is playing the bass note.Cheers,
JV
Juan VegaIn a message dated 11/11/2012 9:34:45 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, jama...@verizon.net writes:Let me see if I can add some light here to both sides of this analysis: minor sixth chords can function as either i chords or iv chords -- tritone be damned, they function as tonic minor or subdominant minor sounds. For example, the Dm6 in the key of C, has a dominant sound, aka more like some type of G7 than some type of F.
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rguitarjj
The concept of a melodic minor chord is a useful one.
Here's the way I understand it. I got this from Mark Levine's Jazz Theory.
There is no avoid note in melodic minor harmony. I can't explain why not, but bear with me.
If you take the scale and stack thirds you get a series of chords. They start with, say, Cminmaj7, Dm7b9 (usually replaced by Dsusb9), Ebmaj7#5 etc up to Balt.
Bass note aside for the moment, Levine says these are all the same chord. And, apparently, you can pick any group of notes from the scale and that will be the same chord too. They don't sound alike, but according to this theory, they are interchangable.
After reading that, I tried it out. I used a tune called Rapaz De Bem, which starts with two bars of Fmaj7 followed by 2 bars of Bb7#11.
Bb7#11 is one of the chords that comes out of Fmelmin if you stack thirds. So, it ought to be the same chord as Fminmaj7, Gsusb9, Abmaj7#5 and so on up to Ealt. So, I tried them all and was pleased to find that every one work works fine. They don't sound alike, but they all work. Up to then, I hadn't thought of 6x675x as the same as x7678x (to take one example), but they can sub for one another.
I'm still working on getting the Equivalency Table installed in my brain and fingers in all 12 keys. That takes some work.
I've also been working on taking a cluster of notes that sounds good (from the scale, that is) and then moving them up the scale to find new grips. This works too.
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Jay Mitchell
> Minor sixth chords yield a decidedly tonic minor sound, as
> does the major sixth chord.
> They also sound great as iv chords in minor keys,
They are interchangeable in this context and pull to the V. The bass
instrument would determine whether the root movement is ii-V or iv-V. Also
in this context (ii-7b5/iv-6), the rootless ninth equivalence (would be the
b79 chord) is shakier that it might otherwise be, since the b7 is not a
scale degree in HM or MM. When there is a b7 in a minor key (eg., "Hit the
Road, Jack"), then a b79 chord would be pretty unambiguous. You could
certainly play a rootless iv-6 instead, but, other than as a possible
mnemonic device, I see no real benefit in thinking of the equivalency while
you are doing so.
Jay
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Chris Smart
and I hear cm6 as am7b5 :) just to throw that in as well.
At 12:16 AM 11/12/2012, you wrote:
>
>
>Let me ask a rhetoric question:
>
>"Would you say you have an ear for 'music'?"
>
>
>
>On Nov 12, 2012, at 12:01 AM,
><mailto:JVeg...@aol.com>JVeg...@aol.com wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>To each his/her musically "own", but I hear
>>Cm6 more like an F7, unless it's the tonic
>>chord, like "Summertime" in Cm. I have no idea
>>what a "melodic minor chord" is, and wonder
>>what you mean by "subdominant function". This
>>is exactly the reason I find this kind of
>>"talk" worthless; it means nothing unless
>>somebody is referring to a musical context. I
>>don't hear/consider Cm6 like Cm/Maj7m, Cm6
>>leans more towards F7/9 to me because of the
>>tritone bet'n A and Eb, but if your approach
>>works, that's cool. Enlighten me, what is a
>>"Melodic Minor chord"? That's a new term for me.
>>
>>Cheers,
>>JV
>>
>>Juan Vega
>>
>>In a message dated 11/11/2012 8:19:59 P.M.
>>Pacific Standard Time,
>><mailto:Funki...@hotmail.com>Funki...@hotmail.com writes:
>>
>>Correct. Similar to why Cm6 is more like
>>Cm/Maj7. They have tonic minor quality, as
>>opposed to Cm7 which has subdominant function.
>>We break this rule at times, but I consider Cm6 a Melodic Minor chord.
>>
>
>
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akmbirch
Guys, From what I'm seeing written, it sounds like there's some confused thinking and not hearing. This stuff is in the end pretty simple. Chord qualities do not by themselves designate chord/harmonic function. In broad terms it is the tones within the chord in relationship to the tonic tone which designate function.
In broad terms:
Tonic Major Function (no 4th degree)
IMaj7, IIIm7, VIm7, #IVm7b5, V/I
Tonic Minor Function (b3rd & no 4th degree)
Im7, Im6, Im(Maj7), bIIMaj7, bIII6, bVIMaj7, VIm7b5
Subdominant Minor Function (4th & b6th)
IIm7b5, IVm7, IVm6, bVII7, bIIMaj7
IMO, to understand contemporary pop & jazz music, it is important to know your modes. Modal interchange helps you understand by ear harmony. IMO, learn to HEAR (and feel) the designate tones within the chords and you won't have to think/intellectualize so much!
--
Alisdair MacRae Birch
Guitarist/Bassist/Educator/Arranger
http://www.alisdair.com
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JVeg...@aol.com
JV
Juan Vega
and I
hear cm6 as am7b5 :) just to throw that in as
well.
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funkifized34
So, I don't see where Cm6 functioning as tonic would take anything other than CMelodic Minor. Same as Cm/Maj7. In Blue Bossa, the melody has a Bb in it, just before the third measure, where the Fm7 chord starts. I don't hear this note as an anticipation to the Fm change, nor any kind of chromatic approach, so I guess I'm leaning toward Cm7 and garden variety Aeolian here. Although McCoy seems to like to alternate Cm6 and Cm7, which would point me to more Dorian flavor, it seems as though Sher is wrong in this transcription and the overall chord is Cm7.
--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "akmbirch" <akmbirch@...> wrote:
>
> Guys, From what I'm seeing written, it sounds like there's some confused thinking and not hearing. This stuff is in the end pretty simple. Chord qualities do not by themselves designate chord/harmonic function. In broad terms it is the tones within the chord in relationship to the tonic tone which designate function.
>
> In broad terms:
>
> Tonic Major Function (no 4th degree)
>
> IMaj7, IIIm7, VIm7, #IVm7b5, V/I
>
> Tonic Minor Function (b3rd & no 4th degree)
>
> Im7, Im6, Im(Maj7), bIIMaj7, bIII6, bVIMaj7, VIm7b5
>
> Subdominant Minor Function (4th & b6th)
>
> IIm7b5, IVm7, IVm6, bVII7, bIIMaj7
>
> IMO, to understand contemporary pop & jazz music, it is important to know your modes. Modal interchange helps you understand by ear harmony. IMO, learn to HEAR (and feel) the designate tones within the chords and you won't have to think/intellectualize so much!
>
>
> --
> Alisdair MacRae Birch
> Guitarist/Bassist/Educator/Arranger
> http://www.alisdair.com
>
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dpkingbluesguitar
' I don't agree. Does C6 have the same tonal implication as C7? Is there no implied difference between C6 and C13? '
Mickey's maj 6 is an inversion of a minor 7 C A E G Amin7/3rd in bass
A 13th as we typically do it is a Extension above a Dom 7, although that doesn't have to be the case. My 13 of choice these days I call the Gatlon 13 for A, strings 5432, G Csharp Fsharp A, that's 7th 3rd 9th Root.
My classic Mickey 13 A G Csharp Fsharp, Root Seventh Third 13th
Just as an aside, I am playing 6ths all over the place now, the Cats dig them on swing numbers and they really sound to half step motion.
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Bob Hansmann
On 11/11/2012 7:41 PM, Bob Hansmann wrote:
>
> C6 has the same tonal implication as Cmaj7. Do you not know this?
oops. but the maj7 was still there.
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Bob Hansmann
On 11/11/2012 8:18 PM, JVeg...@aol.com wrote:
> I know that, but C6 doesn't have the same tonal implication as C7,
> which was the chord mentioned...
I give up.
uncle
wtf?
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John Amato
I think part of the confusion over the m6th as a tonic chord lies in the fact that unlike the the Major 6th which has an uplifting, relaxing, calm sound, the min6th has a tense, semi-jarring, and unsure sound -- making it more suitable for an adjunct chord within the harmonic structure ... IMHO.
On Nov 12, 2012, at 1:32 PM, Bob Hansmann wrote:
> On 11/11/2012 7:53 PM, Terry Petty wrote:
>> C6 is a major chord, without it. More like Cmaj7 or C6/9.
>
> right
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
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Bob Hansmann
On 11/12/2012 12:33 PM, JVeg...@aol.com wrote:
> Or (rootless) F9; context is everything.
Mickey Baker has left the room...
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Mark Cassidy
I, fwiw, love the m6 sound. I much prefer that to a m7 going into Summertime for instance. It seems to set some sort of tension or atmosphere that I don't hear in the m7, and you can then (w/ Dm6 anyhoo) mess around with Fmaj7 sorts of things moving forward.
Mark Cassidy
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akmbirch
--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "funkifized34" <Funkifized@...> wrote:
>
> So, I don't see where Cm6 functioning as tonic would take anything
> other than C Melodic Minor. Same as Cm/Maj7.
I'll say it again....
On Joe Henderson "Page One" recording of "Blue Bossa" Cm6 is a Dorian tonic. IMO, to not understand the importance of modes and modal interchange is to miss what is happens in much of jazz and contemporary music. This is a very good example of why knowing modes & modal interchange is important and why ignoring them or not knowing them leads to errors in analysis. It is not melodic minor.
[snip]
> it seems as though Sher is wrong in this transcription and the
> overall chord is Cm7.
In the jazz tradition Im6 is used to indicate it's a Dorian tonic which I am sure is the intention of the transcriber/Sher pubs. Aebersold Vol. 54 while only indicating Cm indicates the scale to use is Dorian.
.....as this is jazz you can choose what you want to do... but if you
want to play what I suspect was Kenny Dorham's intent then Dorian is the way to go.
--
Alisdair MacRae Birch
Guitarist/Bassist/Educator/Arranger
http://www.alisdair.com
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Jim Mings
In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, Bob Hansmann <bobbybmusic@...> wrote:
On 11/12/2012 12:33 PM, JVegaTrio@... wrote:
Or (rootless) F9; context is everything.
Mickey Baker has left the room...
Shit, man, Bob, when did that happen? MB was great company and is sorely missed.
Jim
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JVeg...@aol.com
JV
Juan Vega
On
11/12/2012 12:33 PM, JVeg...@aol.com wrote:
> Or
(rootless) F9; context is everything.
Mickey Baker has left the
room...
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John Amato
Alisdair,
Guys, From what I'm seeing written, it sounds like there's some confused thinking and not hearing. This stuff is in the end pretty simple. Chord qualities do not by themselves designate chord/harmonic function. In broad terms it is the tones within the chord in relationship to the tonic tone which designate function.
In broad terms:
Tonic Major Function (no 4th degree)
IMaj7, IIIm7, VIm7, #IVm7b5, V/I
Tonic Minor Function (b3rd & no 4th degree)
Im7, Im6, Im(Maj7), bIIMaj7, bIII6, bVIMaj7, VIm7b5
Subdominant Minor Function (4th & b6th)
IIm7b5, IVm7, IVm6, bVII7, bIIMaj7
IMO, to understand contemporary pop & jazz music, it is important to know your modes. Modal interchange helps you understand by ear harmony. IMO, learn to HEAR (and feel) the designate tones within the chords and you won't have to think/intellectualize so much!
--
Alisdair MacRae Birch
Guitarist/Bassist/Educator/Arranger
http://www.alisdair.com
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Bob Hansmann
On 11/11/2012 6:39 PM, funkifized34 wrote:
> I don't agree. Does C6 have the same tonal implication as C7? Is there
> no implied difference between C6 and C13?
I don't know whose post you are referring to. I distinctly wrote Cmi/maj7.
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Bob Hansmann
> C6 is a major chord, without it. More like Cmaj7 or C6/9.
right
------------------------------------
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akmbirch
--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "steve" <bausin@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "akmbirch" <akmbirch@> wrote:
> >
> > Guys, From what I'm seeing written, it sounds like there's some confused thinking and not hearing. This stuff is in the end pretty simple. Chord qualities do not by themselves designate chord/harmonic function. In broad terms it is the tones within the chord in relationship to the tonic tone which designate function.
> >
> > In broad terms:
> >
> > Tonic Major Function (no 4th degree)
> >
> > IMaj7, IIIm7, VIm7, #IVm7b5, V/I
> >
> > Tonic Minor Function (b3rd & no 4th degree)
> >
> > Im7, Im6, Im(Maj7), bIIMaj7, bIII6, bVIMaj7, VIm7b5
> >
> > Subdominant Minor Function (4th & b6th)
> >
> > IIm7b5, IVm7, IVm6, bVII7, bIIMaj7
> >
> > IMO, to understand contemporary pop & jazz music, it is important to know your modes. Modal interchange helps you understand by ear harmony. IMO, learn to HEAR (and feel) the designate tones within the chords and you won't have to think/intellectualize so much!
>
> Alisdair,
>
> How do bIIMaj7 and bVIMaj7 function as tonic? They both have a 4 and b6, so they should be subdominants.
>
> I would like to see you complete this with the minor dominant function and chords. Is it just 4 & maj7?
>
> Thanks,
> Steve
Steve
bIIMaj7 is a typo as a Tonic Minor it should read as bIIIMaj7 (I included bIIMaj7 as a Subdominant minor)
bVIMaj7 contains b6, R, b3, 5
Dominant Function (4th & 7th degree)
V7, VIIm7b5, VIIdim7, V7 + Tensions, bII7
--
Alisdair MacRae Birch
Guitarist/Bassist/Educator/Arranger
http://www.alisdair.com
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steve
--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "akmbirch" <akmbirch@...> wrote:
>
> Guys, From what I'm seeing written, it sounds like there's some confused thinking and not hearing. This stuff is in the end pretty simple. Chord qualities do not by themselves designate chord/harmonic function. In broad terms it is the tones within the chord in relationship to the tonic tone which designate function.
>
> In broad terms:
>
> Tonic Major Function (no 4th degree)
>
> IMaj7, IIIm7, VIm7, #IVm7b5, V/I
>
> Tonic Minor Function (b3rd & no 4th degree)
>
> Im7, Im6, Im(Maj7), bIIMaj7, bIII6, bVIMaj7, VIm7b5
>
> Subdominant Minor Function (4th & b6th)
>
> IIm7b5, IVm7, IVm6, bVII7, bIIMaj7
>
> IMO, to understand contemporary pop & jazz music, it is important to know your modes. Modal interchange helps you understand by ear harmony. IMO, learn to HEAR (and feel) the designate tones within the chords and you won't have to think/intellectualize so much!
Alisdair,
How do bIIMaj7 and bVIMaj7 function as tonic? They both have a 4 and b6, so they should be subdominants.
I would like to see you complete this with the minor dominant function and chords. Is it just 4 & maj7?
Thanks,
Steve
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John Amato
I really don't see the import of this post. Folks here in the "know" have practically given a thesis on the subject with less than satisfactory reception ... I honestly don't know what the original inquirer was/is looking for ... as fat as a further investigation into the difference between Cm6 and C6, other than what your ears, and the practical and "correct" theory that's been posted here, I'll politely bow out of this topic -- because I don't see any merit in further analysis of an "over-anaylzed" subject ...
I, fwiw, love the m6 sound. I much prefer that to a m7 going into Summertime for instance. It seems to set some sort of tension or atmosphere that I don't hear in the m7, and you can then (w/ Dm6 anyhoo) mess around with Fmaj7 sorts of things moving forward.
Mark Cassidy
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Mark Cassidy
Ok, sorry my 'reception' wasn't up to snuff. Nor was I looking for a thesis. I thought we were talking about color in sound.
Cheers,
Mark Cassidy
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Mark Cassidy
Thx Jim, appreciated.
Mark Cassidy
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Paul Sametz
--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, John Amato <jamato316@...> wrote:
>
> I really don't see the import of this post. Folks here in the "know" have practically given a thesis on the subject with less than satisfactory reception ... I honestly don't know what the original inquirer was/is looking for ... as fat as a further investigation into the difference between Cm6 and C6, other than what your ears, and the practical and "correct" theory that's been posted here, I'll politely bow out of this topic -- because I don't see any merit in further analysis of an "over-anaylzed" subject ...
>
Hi John A
The OP was curious to revisit the link I posted a year ago or more, to the Kenny Burrell recording of Blue Bossa. He had forgotten who had recorded it, and now he knows.
The discussion got into theory because some said the chords accompanying the tune should be Aeolian mode and others Dorian. (I find the latter to be true).
I liked Alisdair's interpretation, but I agree with you, John, that's enough discussion on this topic.
Ammo
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Jim Mings
Mark, you were cool, man. I feel a pent-up frustration, for various reasons, in this group. Don't let it get you down.
Jim
--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, Mark Cassidy <cassidymark@...> wrote:
>
> Ok, sorry my 'reception' wasn't up to snuff. Nor was I looking for a thesis. I thought we were talking about color in sound.
> Â
> Cheers,
>
> Mark Cassidy
>
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George Hess
Alistair
I have to agree with Steve that the bVImaj7 is a subdominant minor chord. It's primary function is as an approach to the V and works as a substitute for the ii-7b5 or vice versa ala Night and Day.
George
Educator, Musician
Http://www.georgehess.net
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Paul Sametz
--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Sametz" <ammo@...> wrote:
>
> --- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, John Amato <jamato316@> wrote:
> >
> > I really don't see the import of this post. Folks here in the "know" have practically given a thesis on the subject with less than satisfactory reception ... SNIP
>
> Hi John A
SNIP The discussion got into theory because some said the chords accompanying the tune should be Aeolian mode and others Dorian. (I find the latter to be true).
> Ammo
Ah, but I have another point, stemming from the Blue Bossa discussion.
I just revisited "Jazz: Its Evolution and Essence" (Grove Press 1956) which I owned back in the '70s, and despite the arguments its French author Andr� Hodeir made - basically insulting "America's Classical Music" as being inferior to European Classical Music - there are many valuable comments:
[page 147] "This enlargement of the harmonic field, characteristic of modern jazz, is matched by the enlargement of the melodic field. A six-note chord offers more melodic possibilities that a three-note chord... The soloist asks the accompanist to remodel the old theme's harmony... this treatment becomes traditional in turn, so that the original harmonies are forgotten. Since Hawkins, "Body and Soul" is no longer played with the harmonies indicated by Green, its composer."
I think this supports my claim that Kenny Burrell's version of Blue Bossa is superior to the original Kenny Dorham composition, and may be improved upon by students of the tune, the jazz guitar, and of Kenny Burrell.
You guys are great!
Ammo
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Brian Kelly
Just for the record. Is Kenny Burrell’s version of Blue Bossa somehow different or more evolved than the the standard version. I have about fifty recordings by Kenny but I don’t remember where he recorded that tune. I thought it was on the Lotus Blossom CD but it’s not. I know he does it on a nylon string guitar.
Brian
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pecpec
--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Kelly" <bkelly@...> wrote:
>
> Just for the record. Is Kenny Burrell’s version of Blue Bossa somehow
> different or more evolved than the the standard version. I have about
> fifty recordings by Kenny but I don’t remember where he recorded that
> tune. I thought it was on the Lotus Blossom CD but it’s not. I
> know he does it on a nylon string guitar.
He did it on "Moon and Sand" and on his recent "Be Yourself". Not sure about your first question.
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Brian Kelly
pecpec,
My question was whether or not Kenny’s version had any sort re-harmonization of the original tune going on or it was pretty straightforward.
The way I remember Kenny’s version is that it was pretty standard.
Brian
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pecpec
--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Kelly" <bkelly@...> wrote:
>
> pecpec,
>
> My question was whether or not Kenny’s version had any sort re-harmonization of the original tune going on or it was pretty straightforward.
>
> The way I remember Kenny’s version is that it was pretty standard.
Beats me - See posting: #125039
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Paul Sametz
--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Kelly" <bkelly@...> wrote:
>
> Just for the record. Is Kenny Burrell's version of Blue Bossa somehow
> different or more evolved than the the standard version. I have about
> fifty recordings by Kenny but I don't remember where he recorded that
> tune. I thought it was on the Lotus Blossom CD but it's not. I
> know he does it on a nylon string guitar.
Hi Brian
It's on "Moon and Sand".
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftE9SMZVFjw
It contains a bridge that is not heard on any other version. It's not a jam, it is deliberate, and it is played three times.
I made a comment on that tube, describing the chords to that bridge.
In my opinion, it represents an evolution of this tune, so, yes to your question. Yes, it's on a nylon string guitar.
Cheers
Ammo
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Brian Kelly
Ammo,
Thanks for the links to that song on YouTube. I had forgotten about that part until I heard it tonight. I was pretty surprised by that added bridge the first time I heard him do it but that was years ago.
I saw your posting of the additional changes and though several people argued with you about the changes without checking it with an instrument in my hands I think you are correct.
Dropping down from Dmin on the verses to Cmin in the bridge is very unusual. Kenny makes it sound normal though.
Is the tune with that bridge AABA?
Wow!, he plays the natural sixth in a big as day during his solo. I can’t wait to pull that on the guys at our next gig.
I think I will come back later tonight and look into this version a little more deeply.
Brian
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Bob Hansmann
On 11/12/2012 3:47 PM, Jim Mings wrote:
>
>
> Shit, man, Bob, when did that happen? MB was great company and is
> sorely missed.
Oh, I apologize. I was just trying to get a chuckle out of Juan by using
the Elvis line. As far as I know, MB is alive and living in France.
Most sorry about that. I should've made the connection.
Bobby
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Paul Sametz
--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Kelly" <bkelly@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the links to that song on YouTube. I had forgotten about that part until I heard it tonight. I was pretty surprised by that added bridge the first time I heard him do it but that was years ago.
>
> I saw your posting of the additional changes and though several people argued with you about the changes without checking it with an instrument in my hands I think you are correct.
>
> Dropping down from Dmin on the verses to Cmin in the bridge is very unusual. Kenny makes it sound normal though.
>
> Is the tune with that bridge AABA?
>
> Wow!, he plays the natural sixth in a big as day during his solo. I can’t wait to pull that on the guys at our next gig.
>
> I think I will come back later tonight and look into this version a little more deeply.
>
I am glad you like it too, Brian. Yes, he plays that arrangement as AABA throughout (except for a 4-bar warm-up in the intro and an extra turnaround on the end). Even the drum solo is AABA (64 bar units).
Dropping down from Dmin for the bridge - Cmin is actually the IImin of Bb for the first line of the bridge. That's why it sounds so natural.
Everyone talks about how the melody (of the head) is Dminor Aeolian (or natural minor) but I hear the C in bar 6 as belonging not to Amin but A7#9.
And as you point out, the rhythm chord in bar 7-8 is not plain Dm but Dmin6.
Certainly freshens up this tune, which if nothing else, suffers from too much stepwise descending riffs.
Head:
D- | D- | G- |  G- |
E-7b5 | A-7 | D- | D- |
F- | Bb7 | Ebsus | Eb |
G-7 | C7 | E-sus | A+7 |
Bridge:
Cm7 | Fsus | Bb6 | Bb |
E-7b5 | A7b9 | D-7 | D-7 |
C-7 | F7 | Bbsus | Bb |
B-7b5 | E7b9 | A7 | A+7 ||
Would love to hear you play it.
Ammo
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funkifized34
Alisdair,
With all due respect, I never heard of "Dorian tonic" from my years at Berklee, which I find is usually cited as modes-friendly. I'm kind of getting what you're talking about, though. Can you cite any sources where we might read more about this?
I'm not all that sure how writing Cm6 would be easily construed as Dorian. Seems like Dm13 or some such thing would give us a better idea of the chord function.
--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "akmbirch" <akmbirch@...> wrote:
>
> --- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "funkifized34" <Funkifized@> wrote:
> >
> > So, I don't see where Cm6 functioning as tonic would take anything
> > other than C Melodic Minor. Same as Cm/Maj7.
>
> I'll say it again....
>
> On Joe Henderson "Page One" recording of "Blue Bossa" Cm6 is a Dorian tonic. IMO, to not understand the importance of modes and modal interchange is to miss what is happens in much of jazz and contemporary music. This is a very good example of why knowing modes & modal interchange is important and why ignoring them or not knowing them leads to errors in analysis. It is not melodic minor.
>
> [snip]
>
> > it seems as though Sher is wrong in this transcription and the
> > overall chord is Cm7.
>
> In the jazz tradition Im6 is used to indicate it's a Dorian tonic which I am sure is the intention of the transcriber/Sher pubs. Aebersold Vol. 54 while only indicating Cm indicates the scale to use is Dorian.
>
> .....as this is jazz you can choose what you want to do... but if you
> want to play what I suspect was Kenny Dorham's intent then Dorian is the way to go.
>
>
> --
> Alisdair MacRae Birch
> Guitarist/Bassist/Educator/Arranger
> http://www.alisdair.com
>
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Brad Rabuchin
On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 11:31 PM, funkifized34 <Funki...@hotmail.com>wrote:
> **
Well I'll take a stab at answering. First off Cm6 would have no 7.
That leaves us with 2 obvious scales jazz players use that would contain
the m3rd and natural 6. Those would be Dorian or Melodic minor. Now going
back to early modal tunes like "So What" and "Impressions" Jazz players
started investigating the Dorian mode as a key center. People don't always
use the terminology "Dorian Tonic" to describe these types of tunes but
that's exactly what it is. When you solo over the Dm7 chord in the A sec of
"So What" for example you're using the D Dorian mode for 16 bars, the D has
to be considered the tonic.
It seems to me that from around that time many jazz players started
favoring Dorian as the go to choice for minor one chords when they could
make it work. So we got tunes like "4 on 6"(Wes Montgomery).
"Recordame"(Joe Henderson), "Stolen Moments"(Oliver Nelson) and "Blue
Bossa" that feature Dorian on the Minor one chords. (By the way, Rock has a
ton of Dorian Tonic tunes as well, 2 being "Moon Dance" by Van Morrison and
"In Memory of Elizabeth Reed" by the Allman Bros.)
Later on many of the more modern Jazz players started increasingly to
use the Melodic Minor in all those places where Dorian was being used.
After all Melodic Minor is the same as Dorian but with a Maj 7 instead of a
Min 7th. The thing about the Ma7 degree over a minor chord is it is a bit
more "edgy" or "outside" sounding.
Now back to Cm6 implying Melodic minor; increasingly more modern players
would use Melodic minor but the more traditional and the more inside choice
would be Dorian.
Brad R
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jmings2003
from Brad:
Well I'll take a stab at answering. First off Cm6 would have no 7. That leaves us with 2 obvious scales jazz players use that would contain the m3rd and natural 6. Those would be Dorian or Melodic minor. Now going back to early modal tunes like "So What" and "Impressions" Jazz players started investigating the Dorian mode as a key center. People don't always use the terminology "Dorian Tonic" to describe these types of tunes but that's exactly what it is. When you solo over the Dm7 chord in the A sec of "So What" for example you're using the D Dorian mode for 16 bars, the D has to be considered the tonic.It seems to me that from around that time many jazz players started favoring Dorian as the go to choice for minor one chords when they could make it work. So we got tunes like "4 on 6"(Wes Montgomery). "Recordame"(Joe Henderson), "Stolen Moments"(Oliver Nelson) and "Blue Bossa" that feature Dorian on the Minor one chords. (By the way, Rock has a ton of Dorian Tonic tunes as well, 2 being "Moon Dance" by Van Morrison and "In Memory of Elizabeth Reed" by the Allman Bros.)Later on many of the more modern Jazz players started increasingly to use the Melodic Minor in all those places where Dorian was being used. After all Melodic Minor is the same as Dorian but with a Maj 7 instead of a Min 7th. The thing about the Ma7 degree over a minor chord is it is a bit more "edgy" or "outside" sounding.
Now back to Cm6 implying Melodic minor; increasingly more modern players would use Melodic minor but the more traditional and the more inside choice would be Dorian.
Brad R
Brad, this is very good. Thank you. All I will add is that just because the melody has the Bb, it doesn't mean that you can't use other scales when soloing, and when you get to the common practice of turning minors into dominants ( for example Cm becomes C7#9) right before a chord change, other scales raise their pretty little heads.
Jim
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akmbirch
--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "funkifized34" <Funkifized@...> wrote:
>
> Alisdair,
>
> With all due respect, I never heard of "Dorian tonic" from my years
> at Berklee, which I find is usually cited as modes-friendly. I'm
> kind of getting what you're talking about, though. Can you cite any
> sources where we might read more about this?
>
> I'm not all that sure how writing Cm6 would be easily construed as
> Dorian. Seems like Dm13 or some such thing would give us a better
> idea of the chord function.
Jazz music represents the synthesis of many cultural influences combining elements from African, Native American, Scottish, French, German, Classical, Folk etc., Like folk music, it was not born in an academic environment nor constrained by convention. It borrowed it's musical concepts from the combination of music's it was born out of. In particular it was not constrained by strict adherence to Major-Minor, but borrowed freely from modes and more.
Folk tunes such as "Drunken Sailor" or as some in the US call it "Early In The Morning" are examples of a Dorian tune. There are plenty of others, in the popular vein, "Nights In White Satin", "Scarborough Fair".
In the African music tradition there are many tunes with what can best be described as "double-tonic tunes" which are essentially modal songs where the interpretation of the pitch of the tones depends on the interplay of at least two modes. Jazz borrowed this concept. The blues was born out of this. Scottish Highland music (which in itself has origins from the African music tradition) has many tunes which are "double-tonic tunes" such as "Cabar Feidh" and "The Wild Hills Of Wannies". For some discussion on this take a look here:
http://content.yudu.com/Library/A1wf1x/PipingTodayIssue57/resources/17.htm
See Also:
Peter van der Merwe "Origins of the Popular Style: The Antecedents of Twentieth-Century Popular Music." Oxford: Clarendon Press.
Amazon:
http://tinyurl.com/b8n6tu2
IMO, Jazz musicians, borrowed these concepts, not out of academia, but out of the folk tradition (As I have written about before, Dizzy Gillespie, was strongly of the opinion that one of the biggest influences in the Jazz music was Highland Scottish music)
Unfortunately, IMO, Jazz becomes more and more taught in the ivory tower and in academia, it is often force fitted into Western classical music concepts, and the freedom that jazz breathed into music creation is IMO, being lost. Furthermore, there is so much mis-information, mis-direction, on the web about modes or the lack of, it's no wonder the poor student of jazz is confused.
There is much I could say on this subject and on "double-tonic tunes". IMO, I can't over emphasize the importance of modes (and I mean hearing/sensing them and not just technically running up and down the scale) in getting to grips with jazz music.
I hope this helps
--
Alisdair MacRae Birch
Guitarist/Bassist/Educator/Arranger
http://www.alisdair.com
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John Amato
Sent from my iPhone
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funkifized34
Thanks for answering that. Don't get the wrong idea; I'm all about modes and Dorian tunes. I'm just not all that on board with a m6 chord suggesting Dorian. The Dorian scale has a major 6th note in it, and I can even dig players liking to use the Dorian scale over that chord, but as Joey Goldstein had pointed out in his love for that sound, the flat 7 has to be used as a passing tone. I was taught and still see m6 chords as being a tonic minor, with a stable Maj6th or Maj7th degree in the chord. As far as I've been aware, iim7 is Dorian, not m6. Of course one can use whatever notes he/she hears as sounding good over the chord change, but my feelings are that the initial scale that "belongs" over the chord change would be Melodic Minor over im6, and Dorian over iim7. When I hear McCoy alternating Cm6 with Cm7, I think the overall chord as being Cm7, with the Cm6 as an accented passing tone. It tells me to lean on Dorian instead of Aeolian, and I stay away from Melodic Minor to hear that m7th note.
I'm also thinking of the infamous Jimmy Bruno Guitar Institute lessons, in which he adamantly stays with Cm7 as the tonic chord, and uses C Aeolian over the progression. Perhaps he's making an effort to be more clear for beginners, but he seems quite convinced that this is the way to play the tune. When I suggested the possibility of Cm6 for Blue Bossa, he says that he doesn't hear it. *I* understand, and tend toward Dorian over that chord, although I'm thinking that I'm using this "incorrect" scale (actually, just the one "A" note) as an "outside" note that sounds good. Not really the "correct" note, but it sounds a little more modern, compared to C Aeolian. I might even go further and use C Melodic Minor on occasion to hint at the G7 resolving to Cm. It's not the "correct" scale or note for this chord, but it serves a function (V7-->im). More like a superimposition of G7 over Cm7(or Cm6, for that matter).
At times I'm not sure at what point to disagree with Jimmy about this stuff, as he's obviously far and above most of us in his playing. I guess that there are different approaches to this stuff, but I feel as though teaching students that Cm6 implies Dorian seem unusual and hard to understand for them. Cm6, to me, can sub for Cm/Maj7, and should include the Majth note in it's chord scale. I hear all the parts in the Sher transcription of Blue Bossa, but I just don't necessarily hear the Cm6 as the first chord.
There seem to be different schools of thought here: Jimmy's view, which falls in with the original Real Book, that says Cm7. Jimmy feels that C Natural Minor, or C Aeolian rules here. The 2nd school of thought is that the Cm7 can be considered C Dorian. The 3rd school is the the chord is Cm6 and takes C Melodic Minor. The other view, that Alisdair and others seem to take, is that the chord is Cm6, and this implies C Dorian.
I kind of wish there were some credible sources that clear this up. Not that Alisdair isn't credible; he certainly is. However, I haven't seen anything published that gives a more clear definition here. Especially in light of a major player like Jimmy Bruno disagreeing with the Cm6 theory on this tune.
--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, Brad Rabuchin <bradrabuchin@...> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 11:31 PM, funkifized34 <Funkifized@...>wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Alisdair,
> >
> > With all due respect, I never heard of "Dorian tonic" from my years at
> > Berklee, which I find is usually cited as modes-friendly. I'm kind of
> > getting what you're talking about, though. Can you cite any sources where
> > we might read more about this?
> >
> > I'm not all that sure how writing Cm6 would be easily construed as Dorian.
> > Seems like Dm13 or some such thing would give us a better idea of the chord
> > function.
> >
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Bob Hansmann
On 11/16/2012 2:48 PM, funkifized34 wrote:
> I kind of wish there were some credible sources that clear this up.
> Not that Alisdair isn't credible; he certainly is. However, I haven't
> seen anything published that gives a more clear definition here.
> Especially in light of a major player like Jimmy Bruno disagreeing
> with the Cm6 theory on this tune.
Alisdair is most certainly credible. But if you're needing a published
work on it, may I suggest Gordon Delamont's 2 books on modern harmonic
concepts. The Dorian Mode, like any other scale (key), can be
harmonized, and, as such, can have a tonic (I) chord (as well as a II,
III, IV, V, VI, and VII chord), and one can certainly take that harmony
to the 6th or 7th. The thing which distinguishes the Dorian tonic from
the other minor modes is, as you say, the ma.6th with the mi.7th. But
also to be taken into consideration is the mi.3rd. This particular
combination of intervals Delamont refers to as the Dorian 6th, and it
makes perfect sense.
From Alisdair's post, I got that he is making the same distinction, but
is referring to it as the Dorian tonic, which is a perfectly acceptable
and non-contradictory semantic.
So, for C minor tonalities, we get (for tonic 6th and 7th chords):
Dorian: Cmi6 - Cmi7
Natural minor: Cmi(b6) - Cmi7
Harmonic minor: Cmi(b6) - Cmi/ma7
Ascending Melodic minor (aka 'Jazz' or 'real' Melodic minor): Cmi6 - Cmi/ma7
Phrygian, because of it's mi.2nd, has historically always been treated
differently than minor, in spite of its mi.3rd.
Locrian, because of it's dim.5, has historically always been treated
differently or not at all, in spite of its mi.3rd.
The modern tendency to apply vertical instead of horizontal structures
to modes and other scales ('chord scales') gives a chord on every degree
of any scale.
I don't know why you would say that Berklee does not teach this (because
they certainly do), or that Jimmy Bruno does not agree with this
(admittedly, I haven't read anything he had to say on the subject, but
my impression has always been that he concentrates more on substitute
scales).
At any rate, 'Blue Bossa', being Cmi7 - Cmi6, C Dorian would be the only
key from those I listed above which would 'fit'. Also, if one considers
the opening chords to be Cmi7 - F9, then Bb Major is the key, which,
after all, is C Dorian again.
I deliberately waited to post until Alisdair responded to your question
out of respect for you both, but it's a good question, and certainly
deserves input.
best,
bobby
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pecpec
As Juan Vega said earlier, context is everything and it certainly seems to be so with this m6 chord. I have always heard it as an ambiguous hanging in the air sound, and intellectually I have always thought of it as a hanging gateway between the major and its relative minor - a gate that sometimes is passed through, sometimes just left open. For example I often encounter the Dm6 as the 4 chord in Am - pulling strongly to the 5 - E7 (E7b9 is nice in this context) on its way back to Am. I also often encounter it pulling strongly to G7 and then C. As Juan pointed out the Dm6 can be subbed for a rootless G9. As far as it suggesting this or that mode - I just never got into that bag. I use the notes of chords and their subs, and passing/approach tones (with my ear) and leave it at that.
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rguitarjj
I'm coming to this thread late. I don't have much to add, but I would say this.
I hear this tune with one of those descending minor cliches.
Cmin in root position, than drop the root a half step every two beats.
By the time you get to the Fm7, you've got Ab Eb and G, that is, the guts of an Fm9 chord.
But, if the harmony is actually shifting like that, you've got min, minmaj, min7 and min6 -- all of them. Would anyone try to nail all those chords with its own scale? I don't know the answer to that, but I know that I wouldn't. What I'd try to do is think of a hip sounding melody that would fit - by ear - and play that.
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JV
Juan Vega
What
I'd try to do is think of a hip sounding melody that would fit - by ear - and
play that.
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Jim Mings
Hey y'all, I don't think anyone can make this expressly clear and definitive with analytic words. That's what makes it music and why there is music. Thank you Music! Music is made of sounds not words, though words can be musical. One could play Blue Bossa with only the chromatic scale. E natural is a good note over Cm if it comes from somewhere and goes to somewhere. If you resolve to a chord tone at the right time it will work.
Jim
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John Amato
Jim ... back in the 70s an old jazz guitarist once told me something that Louie Armstrong told him (was pure 'street jazz knowledge' learned form the ;circuits') -- I think it was Larry Lucie ... and it stuck with me. He said when you're playing against a minor chord, there is a wealth of melodies to fill your improvisation in chromatics above the 5th degree of the chord ... I thought it was more like 'superstition' or some kind of jazz voo-doo or something ... but it holds a lot of truth if you just try it ..
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Jim Mings
John,
This is why i believe, fundamentally, that jazz is "folk" music. It is learned on the street in real time with real musicians. Talking about music is like dancing about architecture. I have been experimenting for 40 something years with Blue Bossa and in the last few days I have tried all the approaches that have been mentioned here. That is one of the things i love about our group. I mostly play it in Cm, but have changed keys to listen. I am not on the cutting edge of music theory, but I am trying to learn. Going about 13 is new and intriguing to me. That Bb note over Cmaj7 in Some Other Time was nameless to me. I think it is called a b14th. ;-) Like I say, this is unusual to me, but it makes sense. The Chromatic Scale is the Mother. The real trick to all this is the ability to turn a prhase that makes musical sense.
Jim
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akmbirch
My original post was an answer to the question:
What is the basic harmony played on Kenny Dorham's tune "Blue Bossa"?
My Answer (Cut 'n Pasted below):
"Kenny Dorham's tune "Blue Bossa" was first introduced on Joe Henderson "Page
One" recording. On the track McCoy Tyner piano vamps Cm7/Cm6 on the intro and
outro and Cm6/9 as the tune's final resolution. The head itself contains plenty
of Ab's and no A's so it hints directly at Cm7 (Aeolian) Minor. However, it is
*very* common in jazz to use Cm6 (Dorian) as the tonic chord.
Well-meaning jazz educators often simplify the first chord to Cm7 (Aeolian), and
sadly, unfortunately many don't actually listen to the original recording. The
recording is a great demonstration of the harmonic fluidity of jazz, everyone on
the recording is playing and inter-reacting to what they hear as opposed to some
set in stone set of changes. IMO, sadly, many players today play over the same
changes chorus after chorus with little to no alterations at all, their ears are
stone deaf to any harmonic or melodic changes because of the mechanistic visual
way they have learned versus educating their ear.
Overall the tune is Cm/Eb Major but in the original recording the Cm does tip
towards Cm6."
I'll add:
1. If you want to know what the composer intended use your ears and listen to the original recording.
If you can't hear it - work on ear training, you are going to need it when playing.
2. There are many ways to explain what is happening, choose one you like. How you explain/think of it is up to you, the important thing is to hear it.
3. Jazz music is about interaction between musician's. The music is played by ear. Changes are not set in stone.
For example, comping chorus 1 might exclusively use Cm6, chorus 2 Cm7, chorus 3 Cm9 & Cm6/9 etc...
Jazz is about improvisation - rhythmically, harmonically and melodically.
A musical conversation between all the players - interaction & reaction by ear.
4. You can choose how you want to interpret the tune, that's your choice.
And it just occurred to me, I first played this tune at an audition nearly 40 years ago! My how time flies....
--
Alisdair MacRae Birch
Guitarist/Bassist/Educator/Arranger
http://www.alisdair.com
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JVeg...@aol.com
JV
Juan Vega
Hey
y'all, I don't think anyone can make this expressly clear and definitive with
analytic words. That's what makes it music and why there is music. Thank you
Music! Music is made of sounds not words, though words can be musical. One
could play Blue Bossa with only the chromatic scale. E natural is a good note
over Cm if it comes from somewhere and goes to somewhere. If you resolve to a
chord tone at the right time it will
work.
Jim
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JVeg...@aol.com
JV
Juan Vega
And it
just occurred to me, I first played this tune at an audition nearly 40 years
ago! My how time
flies....
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Jim Mings
What a beautiful reminder from you, JV. Without silence music has no place to be. I have received a few fine treats lately. Thanks, Terry! You know JV, many times I have tried to go to sleep unhappy with how I have communicated here or what has been communicated to me. This group means something to me. I want it to be about the music and the love we have for it. I try very hard to make things beautiful and to say something beautiful. Someday, maybe, I won't have to strive so much. It is a real pleasure to have it returned in kind. Thank you so much and love back at ya, my brother. I got your CD with Vic, Mac, and L.E. and want to say how much I have enjoyed it. It has been a real treat to hear how you have grown into the music. It is playing as i write and it elevates my thought. I can'y have any bad feelings when I listen to your music. I think you made exactly the right move to accept music as your life force. Chris Smart did good work. Hiya, Chris. We all have work to do in order to reach effortless mastery. I wouldn't be me if I didn't offer my opinion: I hear compression and I don't want to be aware of it in this music. It sounds like limiting. Jazz shouldn't compete for bandwidth with pop music. Plus, I wanna hear hear the tunes come to real resolution and not just fade out. BTW, my friend Paul Blakemore just won an Emmy for recording/mastering Arturo Sandoval's latest. Check it out.
Keep On!
Jim
--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, JVegaTrio@... wrote:
>
> Hi Jim,
>
> The only point I'd add to your post is that "silence" is also an equal
> partner in music. Just ask Miles Davis or John Cage. Love to you, brother!
>
> Cheers,
> JV
>
> Juan Vega
>
>
> In a message dated 11/16/2012 7:26:31 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
> jmings2003@... writes:
>
>
> Hey y'all, I don't think anyone can make this expressly clear and
> definitive with analytic words. That's what makes it music and why there is music.
> Thank you Music! Music is made of sounds not words, though words can be
> musical. One could play Blue Bossa with only the chromatic scale. E natural is
> a good note over Cm if it comes from somewhere and goes to somewhere. If
> you resolve to a chord tone at the right time it will work.
> Jim
>
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JVeg...@aol.com
JV
Juan Vega
What a
beautiful reminder from you, JV. Without silence music has no place to be. I
have received a few fine treats lately. Thanks, Terry! You know JV, many times
I have tried to go to sleep unhappy with how I have communicated here or what
has been communicated to me. This group means something to me. I want it to be
about the music and the love we have for it. I try very hard to make things
beautiful and to say something beautiful. Someday, maybe, I won't have to
strive so much. It is a real pleasure to have it returned in kind. Thank you
so much and love back at ya, my brother. I got your CD with Vic, Mac, and L.E.
and want to say how much I have enjoyed it. It has been a real treat to hear
how you have grown into the music. It is playing as i write and it elevates my
thought. I can'y have any bad feelings when I listen to your music. I think
you made exactly the right move to accept music as your life force. Chris
Smart did good work. Hiya, Chris. We all have wo rk to do in order to reach
effortless mastery. I wouldn't be me if I didn't offer my opinion: I hear
compression and I don't want to be aware of it in this music. It sounds like
limiting. Jazz shouldn't compete for bandwidth with pop music. Plus, I wanna
hear hear the tunes come to real resolution and not just fade out. BTW, my
friend Paul Blakemore just won an Emmy for recording/mastering Arturo
Sandoval's latest. Check it out.
Keep
On!
Jim
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John Amato
Jim,
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George Hess
I tend to think of the m6 chord as tonic chord in minor tunes like Summertime or Beautiful Love and use quartal voicings or Cm13 as the tonic for tunes that are Dorian such as Impressions. If I use a minor 6th as a tonic in a tune like Blue Bossa, it's intended to be a subtle change of mode. I'll also use the m13 as the tonic in a tune like Softly as in a Morning Sunrise, even though it's in minor. As with everything there are no steadfast rules, just guidelines. Once you know where in is, you can go from there.
George
Educator, Musician
Http://www.georgehess.net
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JV
Juan Vega
I tend
to think of the m6 chord as tonic chord in minor tunes like Summertime or
Beautiful Love and use quartal voicings or Cm13 as the tonic for tunes that
are Dorian such as Impressions. If I use a minor 6th as a tonic in a tune like
Blue Bossa, it's intended to be a subtle change of mode. I'll also use the m13
as the tonic in a tune like Softly as in a Morning Sunrise, even though it's
in minor. As with everything there are no steadfast rules, just guidelines.
Once you know where in is, you can go from there.
George
Educator,
Musician
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funkifized34
--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, Bob Hansmann <bobbybmusic@...> wrote:
>
> I don't know why you would say that Berklee does not teach this (because
> they certainly do), or that Jimmy Bruno does not agree with this
> (admittedly, I haven't read anything he had to say on the subject, but
> my impression has always been that he concentrates more on substitute
> scales).
I don't know what to tell you. I was taught at Berklee that Cm6 takes Melodic Minor, not Dorian. Maybe they've changed their minds in 20 years. They also taught that while the 6th degree is in Dorian, it's an avoid note over the chord. It's important that it exists as a non-chord tone, but that it's not to be played as a chord tone over iim7.
I had dialogue with Jimmy Bruno about the very issue that the Sher book shows Cm6 as the chord. He replied that he hears it as Cm7, and that the C Natural Minor scale is used on that tune. Feel free to argue with him about it. I don't know what he would play over Cm6 or Cm/Maj7.
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Mark Scalotti
--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "funkifized34" <Funkifized@...> wrote:
>
>
> I kind of wish there were some credible sources that clear this up. Not that Alisdair isn't credible; he certainly is. However, I haven't seen anything published that gives a more clear definition here. Especially in light of a major player like Jimmy Bruno disagreeing with the Cm6 theory on this tune.
>
At the Aebersold workshop I attended we worked on the tune and Cm dorian was the scale recommended by Jamey Aebersold, Jerry Coker and Dave Stryker. We practiced playing the scale and other scales and scale patterns for the tune before we played over the whole tune. Since then I have always used Cm dorian on this tune.
Mark
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Bob Hansmann
> 'foist', the knowledge or the motive?"
specific question originally asked around the example of 'Blue Bossa",
if I actually even remember what the original question was at this point.
Since man began to express himself through art, the issue of colors and
their effective use has been important. And since the time of the
Renaissance, artists have learned more about, used more effectively and
with greater sophistication, and gained more control of color than,
arguably, at any time before. Colors in music are found in the scales
(modes) and keys, and they offer this by, not which tones they contain,
but which they leave out. The Pentatonics, for example, contain natural
skips which automatically imply melody because of them, and have found
their way in some form or another into every music from every culture.
The 'Blues' Scale is merely the same, simple Pentatonics, but with an
added 'blue' note, and so makes use of the same natural, melodic skips.
The question, "Which came foist?", is a simple but important one.
Musicians FIRST came across something they liked, and then tried to
understand why it was that they liked it, and then the 'theory' came as
a result. The 'rules' of each period of music are studied in terms of
physical principles (which they sometimes can be), with musicians
searching for 'what is right and what is wrong', and this is both a
mistake and an easy trap to fall into. 20th century musicians (including
Jazz musicians) have often over-intellectualized music to the missing of
that point - depends upon your point of view. Perhaps this comes from
man's eternal quest to 'make sense out of what is random' (to quote
mathematical professor Peter Griffin) - 'If you break the rules of the
diatonic system, damnation and hell-fire await you', both implied, and
sometimes literally spoken ('Mi against fa is the devil in musica' - J.
J. Fux, 'Gradis ad Parnassum). However, the colors offered in that
'system' are not rules never-to-be broken, but tools to be used by
creative artists, especially in this time in which we now live. Even the
approach of substituting 'other' Melodic Minor scales' over different
chords serves as an acknowledgment to this.
As John pointed out previously, the chromatic scale 'works' against
anything, and so, by extension, everything can work against anything
(because every scale or mode can be found in the chromatic scale (not to
mention the quarter-tone scale....). The problem though is that the
chromatic scale, in containing everything, does not have those precious
skips which supply the colors which we are seeking in our music, and so
we analyze and devise those skips over little over 400 years and come up
with the major - minor key system, among other things, and have to learn
how to NOT let them control us. As Alisdair has pointed out on many
occasions, this does not in any way negate the major-minor key system,
and musicians who do so are more often obviously lacking in the interest
they develop in their listener than not.
Musicians are always seeking greater freedom of expression, and each
period in (Western at least) music is pretty much defined by those
lines-drawn-in-the-sand. I disagree in part that it is wrong to look
back to Western European music for the tools of Jazz. Notwithstanding
all the other influences Jazz draws upon, the very colors which are the
melodic and harmonic language of Jazz musicians come right out Western
European music of the past 400 years. For example, think about how many
Jazz musicians have said that some of their greatest influences were
that of Bartok and Debussy.
Miles Davis wanted to record with Jimi Hendrix, but Hendrix's untimely
death put the kibosh to that idea. Question, though - If they had
recorded together before his death, would Hendrix have died being
thought of as a Jazz guitarist by those needing a label for everything
and everybody? An answer (but certainly not THE answer) can be found by
looking at Miles' use of 'Rock' bass players, which was frowned upon by
most of his Jazz peers at the time. Was he becoming a Rock musicians
himself, or was the exploration in these directions really another
attempt at the fusion of Jazz with other musics. I think the latter is
more true, as Jazz is and has always been a fusion, but others feel
differently to this day. So, then, is Buddy Guy a Blues, Rock, or Jazz
guitarist - he is certainly not a 'straight ahead' in any of these, but
arguments can be made for any. But, why bother? - the argument is
circular at best, meaningless at worst.
And all this chatter doesn't even take into account that the most early
differences between Jazz and Western European music were not harmonic
and melodic at all, but rhythmic ('Rag Time' - 'Ragged Time'), and I
think that the struggle to achieve control over rhythm persists to this
day. Further, I think it's arguable that the search for what notes'
work' and 'don't work' often get in the way of that simple fact. As
Hermeto Pascoal liked to say - "There is Father Rhythm, Mother Harmony,
and Baby Melody." (I may have gotten those mixed up, but I think you get
the point). Louis Armstrong 'wrote' the first 1/2 of a book attributed
to him called "Swing That Music" - well worth reading (at least the
first 1/2).
As others have said, "White folks have no sense of time." Perhaps if
'white' musicians spent less time setting their metronomes to 2 and 4,
and more time LISTENING to Jazz (including transcribing and actually
playing along with), their lot in this regard would improve. I hear
players speak more and more about "Swing", but I hear it less and less
of it in their playing. Chick Corea said that, even though he had gotten
all of his mentor's (bud Powell, of course) lines down, he never played
them properly until he played along with them with his stereo speakers
right up against his ears.
And I'm not even addressing those who claim to 'just play what they
feel' here - they are just boring as a lot. Can't they ever figure out
that it's not the musicians 'job' to self-affect, but to affect others?
This concept has been around since before the Baroque Period, and is
called the 'Theory of the Affects'. Thankfully, Bach didn't just
compose that which made him 'feel good'.
Even 'Classical' musicians (whatever that is) have to listen to
classical music played by greats if they are ever to get the point,
though not too many would admit it. The LP was perhaps the greatest tool
ever afforded to musicians, as it opened up the whole world of great
music to their living rooms, and not just concert halls, which were
often too expensive and far away for most; and, besides, a record can be
played over and over again.
And so, I've said a LOT here - perhaps too much. In any event, I've
given those inclined to argue every nit and lice plenty of ammunition
for which to do so. As to this post, and as to my previous one, I stand
by every word. The Dorian mode and its harmonies and melodies is what it
is (thankfully for Carlos Santana...), 'Blue Bossa' is what it is, and
time is what it is. "Drunken Sailor" is what it is ("What shall We Do?",
of course). Berklee is what it is, and why one would not come out of
there knowing there is such as thing as a Dorian tonic is a mystery to
me. I'm certainly not going to argue with Jimmy Bruno as to what works
for him. I can say though, with certainty, that he has done a LOT of
practicing, playing along with, and transcribing, and then gigging
every chance he got. All the theory in the world is of no value without
that 'other stuff'.
To quote Alisdair's important words:
> 1. If you want to know what the composer intended use your ears and
> listen to the original recording.
> If you can't hear it - work on ear training, you are going to need it
> when playing.
>
> 2. There are many ways to explain what is happening, choose one you
> like. How you explain/think of it is up to you, the important thing is
> to hear it.
>
> 3. Jazz music is about interaction between musician's. The music is
> played by ear. Changes are not set in stone.
> For example, comping chorus 1 might exclusively use Cm6, chorus 2 Cm7,
> chorus 3 Cm9 & Cm6/9 etc...
> Jazz is about improvisation - rhythmically, harmonically and melodically.
> A musical conversation between all the players - interaction &
> reaction by ear.
>
> 4. You can choose how you want to interpret the tune, that's your choice.
And John, as to "which came foist?" - well, the egg, of course.
best,
bobby
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Brian Kelly
I can’t believe how detailed this subject has been on a tune that everyone has played ten thousand times.
Brian
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Kevin
Christ, if you're still interested, here is the thread # to the Blue Bossa discussion that I was trying to remember.
<106719>
Pasting in the part that I was trying to recall, below this line:
<<>><<>>
I have been listening to Kenny Burrell's fine version of Blue Bossa for ages now
and finally figured out the chords to the Bridge section. Bridge? you say - what
bridge? It's not in the fakebooks!
Just listen to it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftE9SMZVFjw
OK here is the first Bridge at 0:56
Cm7 | Fsus | Bb6 | Bb |
E-7b5 | A7b9 | D-7 | D-7 |
Cm7 | F7 | Bbsus | Bb |
B-7b5 | E7b9 | A7 | A+7 ||
Then back to the Head in D- at 1:14
This bridge repeats in the solo section at 2:04 - 2:25 and 3:18 - 3:34
So cool! Just goes to show how many people are using the Fake Book version and
just who has the changes right under his fingers.
Head changes:
D- | D- | G- | G- |
E-7b5 | A-7 | D- | D- |
F- | Bb7 | Ebsus | Eb |
G-7 | C7 | E-sus | A+7 ||
How many years have I played this without a bridge, and without it, it is
depressing; the melody just spirals down and down (because of the latin minor
sixth descending to the fifth in the last line of the head). With the bridge, it
is jaunty! I highly recommend everyone play it this way!
Ammo
<<>>end of paste<<>>
I'm glad I found this again, coz, for some reason, this is a tune that frequently pops in to my brain, and it'll get stuck there for hours on end :)
Thanks, Kevin
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akmbirch
--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, JVegaTrio@... wrote:
>
> Don't worry, Alisdair, you still look the same, everybody else has
> aged... :)
With the change that technology has produced in everyone's lives, it's reassuring that there is some stability and some things never change!
.... well at least I certainly feel the same....
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John Amato
Bobby,
I agree totally ... in a few words I'd say that in considering what came foist, the "chicken or the egg" ... I think a "Chicken Tortilla" (Chicken Omelet) ... both play a role supporting each other ... how it 'pans' out eventually is this, when we started playing the instrument in our teens or earlier, our original impetus and motivation was to "follow the sound", "go for the groove (of the era), "beat the drum at the party," etc, etc. -- we didn't know a scrap of theory or had an iota of musical knowledge, but we wanted to "Feel Good" which was brought on by strumming the box ... and further seeking out more "knowledge" to play better and FELL BETTER ...
I'd say that the BETTER WE FEEL at what we play, the better the music ... and the better the audience will appreciate what we do ....
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
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Bob Hansmann
Hi Brian,
> I can’t believe how detailed this subject has been on a tune that
> everyone has played ten thousand times.
Yeah, it can go that way on this List, but that's not a bad thing.
I doubt, though, that even in our 40+ years of having played this tune,
Alisdair's and my own's combined played would not equal 10,000. Ya know,
if I told you once, I've told you a-million times not to exaggerate so....
best,
Bobby
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Bob Hansmann
Hi Alisdair,
> With the change that technology has produced in everyone's lives, it's
> reassuring that there is some stability and some things never change!
>
> .... well at least I certainly feel the same....
I hate to tell you this, my friend, but "60 is the new 40" is a phrase
conjured up by Madison Avenue.... it ain't.
oh, well,
Bobby
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Brian Kelly
Bobby,
Would you agree to “It “feels” like we’ve played that tune 10,000 times.” So far I think we’ve actually played it 5,000 times and discussed it another 5,000 anyway.
You are right in saying that it has been a good discussion though. Next gig I am going to put some real funny stuff in this tune. Nobody will know what hit them.
Brian
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Bob Hansmann
Hi Brian,
> Would you agree to “It “feels” like we’ve played that tune 10,000
> times.” So far I think we’ve actually played it 5,000 times and
> discussed it another 5,000 anyway.
Done.
Bobby
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funkifized34
I'm sorry I brought it up. Un-friggin'-believable. It was a fairly straightforward question. In light of the Sher Music book with changes that show Cm6 as the Imin. chord in Blue Bossa, I wanted some other opinions as to what this chord was on the original recording of the tune.
I've been told "If you want to know what the composer intended use your ears and listen to the original recording.
If you can't hear it - work on ear training, you are going to need it when playing." Well, I have worked on ear training. I transcribe a lot, I daresay a lot more than a lot of people at this group. I'm having a hard time hearing the 6th or the flatted 7th in the chord. I'm not alone here. Jimmy Bruno has posted in reply to me that he hears it as Cm7. Chuck Sher says Cm6, Jimmy says Cm7. Not out of the question that I might have my own doubts about it. Anyone feel like telling either Chuck or Jimmy to work on their ear training?
Another reply here: "Berklee is what it is, and why one would not come out of there knowing there is such as thing as a Dorian tonic is a mystery to me." Berklee puts out some of the most accomplished young jazz players coming out today. Heavy-duty big names in jazz teach there with fair regularity. As far as the Dorian Tonic issue, and this is quite obviously referring to my statement about it, I'm only saying this ONE MORE TIME! I understand the damned idea about modes, modal tunes, Dorian tunes, etc. I've been arguing that modes are very much legit, against the ignorant "modes suck" ignoramuses for about a decade now. However, my question was to Alisdair about his use of "Dorian Tonic", which I considered to be in regards to Cm6/Cm(Maj7) and Melodic Minor. The discussion about "Dorian Tonic" was in reference to what I perceived as a wrong chord for Dorian. Read the context better before you imply that my education at Berklee was somehow lacking.
Next: "I don't know why you would say that Berklee does not teach this (because they certainly do), or that Jimmy Bruno does not agree with this (admittedly, I haven't read anything he had to say on the subject, but my impression has always been that he concentrates more on substitute scales)."
Did you go to Berklee? I ask because Berklee (for the last f**cking time) did not teach that iim7 gets Melodic Minor. They taught that a Minor 6 chord gets Melodic Minor, as does Min7(Maj7), as these chords can sub for each other, similar to Maj7 and Maj6. Additionally, I can fully tell that someone's not reading the post fully because what I stated that Jimmy Bruno doesn't agree with is Blue Bossa using Cm6. He also feels that the C Natural Minor scale is what should beused over this tune. I don't know where the "substitute scales" idea comes from. Jimmy stated quite clearly in his lessons that he uses the natural minor scale over this tune, with melodic alterations incorporated by ear. He said himself that he hears Cm7 in the reocrding. No Dorian, no Cm6, no Melodic Minor, whatever.
"You can choose how you want to interpret the tune, that's your choice." Yeah, no shit. I asked about how it was interpreted in the original tune by the original musicians. I'd like to get some other input to decide how I want to teach students to start with this tune. I'd prefer to not start a fairly green student with "play any note, they all work, just use your ears", when they don't understand where to start yet. The Sher book has a nice chart that reflects the Joe Henderson recording, but both Jimmy Bruno and I agree that the chord is not Cm6 as listed on the lead sheet. Instead of getting thoughts on what chord was used, we've got post after post about Cm6 implying Dorian, that "E natural is a good note over Cm if it comes from somewhere and goes to somewhere", and that I should work on my ear training.
Jesus, so much for asking questions here.
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rguitarjj
I've sometimes wondered why, if you ask a question online, a lot of people assume you don't know the first thing about the subject.
I just listened to the original recording. I don't guarantee my ears.
I hear Cm6 and Cm7 at different times, and a lot of movement that may be a harmonized C dorian scale. Sounds like the pianist comps under his own solo with m6. But, under the melody, sounds more lik m7, but it seems to vary depending which chorus and where within the chorus.
--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "funkifized34" <Funkifized@...> wrote:
>
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musicmaker1245
Perhaps you missed my post:
At the Aebersold workshop I attended we worked on the tune and Cm dorian was the
scale recommended by Jamey Aebersold, Jerry Coker and Dave Stryker. We practiced
playing the scale and other scales and scale patterns for the tune before we
played over the whole tune. Since then I have always used Cm dorian on this
tune.
I just dug out my Aebersold books to check and they do notate the Dorian scale over the Cm chord.
http://www.jazzbooks.com/jazz/product/V54DS
Mark
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Chris Smart
At 12:43 AM 11/18/2012, you wrote:
>
>
>I'm sorry I brought it up. Un-friggin'-believable. It was a fairly
>straightforward question. In light of the Sher Music book with
>changes that show Cm6 as the
Relax man ... your ears, Bruno's ears, and definitely Sher's ears
are great! His fakebooks are certainly orders of magnitude more
accurate than many others!
that said, I don't own one currently - because it's not available
in Braille - but when I studied with a great teacher, he was
adament about the accuracy of the Sher realbooks.
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jazzster_01
From a rare poster, this is all pretty comical. I mean all this discussion about a tune most of learned early on and just go out and play. who cares if its a minor6 or minor6 or dorian this or that?
What would ensue if someone had a question about a Wayne Shorter tune??? ha ha.
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