Re: [jazz_guitar] Minor Melodies

[John Amato]

It seems to me better to think in G Minor???

Or is it always best to think in terms of major???

Mark

.... Since major and minor both share and have in common some of the same
scale degrees which include -3 and -7, I prefer to think in both -- that's Bb with a minor tonality ....

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jazz_guitar/

<*> Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jazz_guitar/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
jazz_guit...@yahoogroups.com
jazz_guitar-...@yahoogroups.com

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
jazz_guitar...@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

[Matthew Chambers]

Have to agree with Juan. It's always in Em, far as I know.

[JVeg...@aol.com]

I know my answer isn't going to help you, but it's best to
think in terms of sounds. If a song (like AL) sounds minor,
then that's what you want to try to hone in on if you're
asking about improvising. If the tonality appears to be
major, then that's the "answer", but I think it's more
helpful to be able to hear how the notes sound over
the chord changes.

AL is interesting, because it tends to go bet'n the major
and relative minor, so you don't want to get yourself tied
up in harmonic knots that won't help your playing.

BTW, I've always played AL in E minor; 1st chord is an
Am (ii in G), and then it pretty quickly flips over to Em
with the F#m7b5/B7b9/Em progression, etc.

Cheers,
JV

Juan Vega

[akmbirch]

On Autumn Leaves keys ...

It is played in all keys.

The first recording by Yves Montand was done in Ebm! But you can't sell sheet music in Ebm (6 flats) to the general public, so publish in Em. The only vocal recording I know in Em is by Johnny Mathis.

Male voices - Frank/Nat generally do it in Dm, Female voices in Cm or in Edith Piaf's case Bbm.

Most Instrumentalists prefer Gm. Miles liked Gm, Chet Baker liked Fm.

The old real book had it is Em even though the source is supposedly Bill Evans "Portrait in Jazz" version which is in Gm.

Em is a guitar-friendly key, its in the real book, so no need to transpose!

On Autumn Leaves melody ...

It's minor melody so if you are using numbers to memorize the first few tones, then as you put it "think in G minor" 1, 2, b3, b6. Then it's nice n'easy to remember its starts on the root.

(Some musicians do think only in "Major keys" or more correctly in
terms of numbers of sharps and flats, and so would remember the melody
as starting on the root of the VI chord).

In terms of Solfege, what is interesting is as minor melody this is where the educational solfege insisters of DO-based minor makes themselves go through hoops rather than just using LA-based relative minor and everything becomes much clearer. LA-based minor makes it very clear the transition between the major and the relative minor. All pretty neat!

On the Real Book ...

The Real book (in Em) has the last four measures as |Cmaj7 | F#m7b5 B7 | Em7 | Em7 |

The main melody note over Cmaj7 is A! Please, please do not voice the chord with a zinging B.

Cmaj7 is a substitute chord for F#m7b5! Many pro's play C13.

Sadly too many musicians play the real book changes without using their ears!

--
Alisdair MacRae Birch
Guitarist/Bassist/Educator/Arranger
http://www.alisdair.com

[JamesM]

Mark:
It seems to me better to think in G Minor??? Or is it always best to think in terms of major???
Mings:
Good age-old question.
There are several ways to think of it. Most of the time it is simplest to think in terms of the key of the last chord of the song. That scale "usually" influences all the chords in the progression.
Autumn Leaves, like Summertime, explores the sound relationship of a Major key and its Relative minor. Great songs; and in a sense these compositions are an answer to your question. Listen closely to them.
As far as guitar playing goes, it is useful to "derive" fingerings from the major scale. See the fab Jimmy Bruno for help on this. He has laid it out plain and simple and can demonstrate eloquently how it works. It is helpful to know the scales by intervalic content, but I find this a lot more to think about until this method is internalized and becomes "thoughtless listening." I find simplicity an honorable goal. KISS. Now maybe one can begin to learn the repertoire.
I am sure others have more to say.
Jim

[Dave Woods]

_____

From: jazz_...@yahoogroups.com [mailto:jazz_...@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of JamesM
Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 10:00 PM
To: jazz_...@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [jazz_guitar] Re: Minor Melodies

The confusion here is that the classical concept of Key stems from the Major
Minor System. C major and A minor are Relative Major and Minor. True, but
this is very limited today. C major Ionian, D minor Dorian, F major Lydian,
G major Mixolydian, and A minor Aeolian are all "Relative" Majors and Minors
to each other. Any Key has six Tonal Centers, and a Tune can migrate
through all of them within the same Key. Even though this is the case, C
major / A minor is a well established Bench Mark that will never be
completely abandoned.

Today, C major can be C major Ionian, C major Lydian and C major Mixolydian
mixed together. This is combining chords from the Key of C, the Key of G,
and the Key of F against a C Tonal Center.

Today, A minor can be A minor Aeolian, A minor Dorian and A minor Phrygian
mixed together. Again, this is combining chords from the Key of C, the Key
of G, and the Key of F against an A Tonal Center.

Dave Woods http://www.jazzguitarstartingright.com
<http://www.jazzguitarstartingright.com/>

,_._,___

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

[rguitarjj]

If the progression is going to resolve to a minor chord, I think of it as minor. In your example the last chord is a Gm. The preceding chord in many cases is D7 or maybe D7b13. It seems to me that thinking in Bb major would be confusing. The next to last chord in Bb would often be an F7, which doesn't resolve to Gm as strongly.

As a way to learn Gm it may make sense to start by thinking about the notes in Bbmajor. Part of the work of becoming a jazz player is getting all of those equivalencies in one's mind so that, for example, it won't make any difference whether you think Gm or Bb. You go right to the right notes.

Rick

[dal_gtr06]

--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "Matthew Chambers" <msc186@...> wrote:
>
> Have to agree with Juan. It's always in Em, far as I know.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I second that...to some extent...
I play it in G & Em as it tends to rotate back and forth between these relative keys. These keys typically share the same key signature, only the song has accidentals that fit using the notes from the E harmonic minor scale for the Em portions.

The song technically switches back and forth between G (II, V, I, IV) and EM (II, V, I) in the first section. It then goes between Em (II, V, I) and G (II, V, I) for the bridge. The last section is Em (II, V, I modulating to D) D (V) then C (II,V) and back to Em (II,V,I).

[musicmaker1245]

I have a question on minor melodies. How do jazz musicians think of them?

For example:

Autumn Leaves is generally played in Gm (the last melody note is G and the last chord is Gm).

The first notes of the the tune are:

G, A, Bb, Eb

So do you "think in G minor"

1, 2, b3, b6

or do you "think in Bb Major"

6, 7, 1, 4 ?

It seems to me better to think in G Minor???

Or is it always best to think in terms of major???

Mark

[Bob Hansmann]

Looking for one and only one key to apply to "Autumn Leaves" is a mistake.

If that strict, key center, sort of approach is what you're trying to
use, then remember that the tune flips and flops between both Gmi and Bb
Maj. For example, the first progression, C-7 F7 Bb Eb, is in Bb, the
next, A-7b5 D7b9 Gmi, is in Gmi.

hope this helps,
Bobby

[Ron Murray]

In situations such as this, I have found that calling the key as "1
sharp" or "2 flats" is less confusing than arbitrarily assigning
major or minor.

On Nov 6, 2009, at 10:00 PM, JamesM wrote:

> Mark:
> It seems to me better to think in G Minor??? Or is it always best
> to think in terms of major???
> Mings:
> Good age-old question.
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

[Ron Murray]

Actually, it's more often in Bb (Gm), if horns are involved.

[John Amato]

I'll fluctuate between Em and G ... but not so much in the sense of "thinking Em" or "thinking G" ... but knowing by "hearing" when you'll "need-by-ear" that Eb or Db from the minor key ... it's really a fact of having the whole chromatic scale at our fingertips ... but, yes, Em and G kind of zeroes in it for you ....

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[JVeg...@aol.com]

Hi Rick,

I probably should've been more specific. You're totally right,
sometimes when arranging a piece for an instrument other
than the original one for which it was written, it might be
necessary to transpose.

That said, I don't think you're apt to hear a Mozart piano
sonata transposed into another key in order to make it
easier to play. Same thing for orchestral works.

I'm not too much into this, but it's my understanding that
different keys do indeed sound different, that "sharp" keys
tend to sound brighter than "flat" keys, etc. I'd be willing
to wager that hearing the same piece played in two different
one after another might be telling...

Cheers,
JV

Juan Vega

In a message dated 11/7/2009 11:39:00 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
rpjazz...@gmail.com writes:

Don't classical guitarists do arrangements in different keys? I read
somewhere that part of arranging a classical piece is to find a key where the
open strings work for you. It's a good idea with jazz chord melody too, often
the difference between smooth time and that herky jerky stuff we sometimes
hear from jazz players.

[funkifized34]

--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "Matthew Chambers" <msc186@...> wrote:
>

> Have to agree with Juan. It's always in Em, far as I know.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

This is typically thought by people who learned the tune from the Wrong Book (the Real Book). I don't know why it's in Em there; I've never heard anyone play it that key that wasn't influenced by that book. Never heard a recording of it played in Em before the Real Book came out.

I suspect that Misty is this way, too. The original key for that is G!

[John Amato]

"The Shadow of Your Smile" is another tune in G with Em tonality ... it fluctuates between Em and G ... with a focus on F#m7 and B7 ... the ii7 - V7 of Em ...

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

[Chris Smart]

For that matter, has anybody heard Girl from Ipanema in F? It's in
Db on the record that most people are familiar with.

Goodbye Pork Pie Hat in the RB is in Fmin, yet two Mingus recording
I have play it in Ebmin and Emin respectively.

[rguitarjj]

I've read this too, but I confess that I can't hear it.

I'm thinking, for example, of a song called Beiral. I play it in three different keys. Rosa Passos' key which I lifted from the record, and arrangements done in Db and C.

Once I'm playing I can't tell the difference. When I think about the different singers I don't notice differences in the overall brightness.

But, I'm convinced that others can hear it. I once spoke to John Cippolina (Quicksilver) about this. He associated each key with a color. I recall him saying "key of B, there's a lot of purple in that key".

Rick

--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, JVegaTrio@... wrote:
>
> Hi>

> I'm not too much into this, but it's my understanding that
> different keys do indeed sound different, that "sharp" keys
> tend to sound brighter than "flat" keys, etc. I'd be willing
> to wager that hearing the same piece played in two different
> one after another might be telling...
>
> Cheers,
> JV
>
> Juan Vega
>
>
> In a message dated 11/7/2009 11:39:00 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,

[rguitarjj]

Dave, as always an interesting post. I've never really thought about this ....

A minor Aeolian is all the white keys.
A minor Dorian adds an F#
A minor phrygian adds a Bb.

So, now we're choosing notes, in the key of C, as follows.

A Bb B C D E F Gb G

That's 9 notes. The only ones that aren't there are Db, Eb and Ab

How do I use this? Can you give me an example of a tune and an approach? Sorry to burden you with this question, but if you need help, you ask a generous man.

Thanks,

Rick

[Angelo]

On 11/7/09, rguitarjj <rpjazz...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I've read this too, but I confess that I can't hear it.
>
> I'm thinking, for example, of a song called Beiral. I play it in three different keys. Rosa Passos' key which I lifted from the record, and arrangements done in Db and C.
>
> Once I'm playing I can't tell the difference. When I think about the different singers I don't notice differences in the overall brightness.
>
> But, I'm convinced that others can hear it. I once spoke to John Cippolina (Quicksilver) about this. He associated each key with a color. I recall him saying "key of B, there's a lot of purple in that key".
>

When my son was about 4-5 yrs old,he would "compose" little tunes on
the piano.. All his songs were named after colors... One was "The
Brown Song", another "The Red Song" and so on...I could never figure
it out.

[Joe Gentile]

>
> I suspect that Misty is this way, too. The original key for that is
> G!

The original key for Misty is Ab

Joe

Joe Gentile
IPExperts.com
114 Clarkson Executive Park
St. Louis, MO 63011
800.442.5191
jgen...@ipexperts.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

[akmbirch]

The Equal Tone Temperament system we use today tends to remove the sonority differences between keys. Our equal tone temperament tuning means that all the notes are exactly the same distance apart in pitch. Tuned this way, music sounds basically the same all the time even if it is written in different keys, other than being a little higher or lower in pitch.

The sonority differences that exist tend to be because of the instrument being played, it's range and construction rather than within the differences between keys.

Bradley Lehman, a researcher of historical temperaments and a performer of Bach's music, has a great web-site on this topic:

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bpl/larips/index.html

Lecture:
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bpl/larips/informal.html

--
Alisdair MacRae Birch
Guitarist/Bassist/Educator/Arranger
http://www.alisdair.com

[JVeg...@aol.com]

Y'know, Alisdair has it right, any tune should be in all keys.
If you work w/ singers, you are often hit with songs in all
sorts of different keys; I played w/ one once that did everything
in B, and that was interesting. Sounded different, too.

Even the people who write the tunes sometimes change keys,
depending on the situation, or who knows. What I find very
interesting is that the same thing doesn't happen in classical
music, ie, you'd never hear Bach's D Minor Invention in Ab
minor, eg. I believe this is primarily because classical
composers believed that different keys had different timbres.

Which brings me to a question for those here who write tunes:
when you write a song, does the key center have any bearing
on it? Personally, if I hear a melody in my head, I have the
tendency to write the tune in the key in which I hear it, that
sometimes drives my sax player nuts... Comments???

Cheers,
JV

Juan Vega

In a message dated 11/7/2009 10:24:35 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
chr...@sympatico.ca writes:

For that matter, has anybody heard Girl from Ipanema in F?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

[Ron Murray]

Nobody knows the original key of "Misty". Garner himself played it in
different keys at different times, often in A.

On Nov 7, 2009, at 10:32 PM, funkifized34 wrote:

>
>
> --- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, Joe Gentile <jgentile@...> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > I suspect that Misty is this way, too. The original key for
> that is
> > > G!
> >
> > The original key for Misty is Ab
> >
> > Joe
> >
> > Joe Gentile
> > IPExperts.com
> > 114 Clarkson Executive Park
> > St. Louis, MO 63011
> > 800.442.5191

> > jgentile@...
>
> My mistake. I knew that, I just confused that knowledge with the
> fact that Wes played Misty in G. There's only so much information
> that fits in my head. Every time I learn something new, something
> else falls out the bottom...
>
> Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use
> .

[funkifized34]

--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "akmbirch" <akmbirch@...> wrote:
>
> On the Real Book ...
>
> The Real book (in Em) has the last four measures as |Cmaj7 | F#m7b5 B7 | Em7 | Em7 |
>
> The main melody note over Cmaj7 is A! Please, please do not voice the chord with a zinging B.
>
> Cmaj7 is a substitute chord for F#m7b5! Many pro's play C13.
>
> Sadly too many musicians play the real book changes without using their ears!
>
> --
> Alisdair MacRae Birch
> Guitarist/Bassist/Educator/Arranger
> http://www.alisdair.com

Alisdair, I'm not sure what you mean here. I understand and agree about using one's ears as opposed to only learning the Wrong Book (Real Book) changes, but I'm not sure why one couldn't use a B in the Cmaj7 with A in the melody. I would think that the C13 would be a bigger problem, with the Bb in the chord over an A melody note. I see CMaj7 as being the IV chord in the key of G, which has an available tension of F#. So, we're looking at an arp spelled C, E, G, B, D, F#. The F#m7(b5) would be spelled F#, A, C, E. As C6 can sub for CMaj7, giving us C, E, G, B, D, F#, A, why wouldn't this work?

Actually, my Real Book shows the final 4 bars as CMaj7, B7b9, Em. Seems as though the Berklee students that compiled the book tried to make the end of the tune hip by doing a chromatic thing, starting with the 6th measure from end, with Em7-->Eb7-->Dm7-->Db7-->Cmaj7-->B7, and then resolving V to i. I suspect that they didn't use C7 because CMaj7 is diatonic to the key.

[Greg Macmillan]

The earliest example I've seen of the melody and progression for Autumn
Leaves is the where the A section of Autumn Leaves appears in the 5th
bar of Chromatic Fantasy by J.S. Bach. In this case it's in the key of D
minor back in 1720. If you want to check it out for your self go here
http://www.pianopedia.com/mov413_1390.aspx
and play bar 5

cheers Greg

[rperry19]

I like to play AM in E Harmonic Minor all the way through. It has some interesting sounds that way. Ron

[Dave Woods]

_____

Let's take Amin.7, (A C E G). It's the One chord of Amin. Aeolian Key of
C, the One chord Amin. Dorian Key of G. and the One chord A min. Phrygian,
Key of F.

The Tritone of the Key of C is F and B, The Tritone of the Key of G is C and
F#, The Tritone of the Key of F is E and Bb. To interchange Modes on the A
minor Tonal Center, You have to introduce the TRITONES of these three keys
to the ear through the chords you choose.

As soon as you play A min.6 (A C E F#), you've sounded the Tritone of the
Key of G (Tritone C and F#). If from there, if you played Bbmaj.7 (Bb D F
A) you would be in A minor Phrygian. This is because you retained the E in
your ear from the Amin.7. Hearing the Bb in the Bb maj.7 chord, as you
remember the E from the previous chord, sounds the Tritone of the Key of F
(Bb and E). You hear the mode change to A minor Phrygian. These are some
examples.

The Shadow of Your Smile Starts on an F# min.7 chord, this is the Two Chord
of E minor Dorian (F# A C# E), Key of D (Tritone G and C#). The next chord
is B7b9 (B D# F# C). The D# is a Leading Tone that will disappear after the
resolution to Emin7. The C natural in the B7b9 cancels out the C#, and you
hear yourself in the Key of G (Tritone C and F#). This throws the Mode into
E minor Aeolian.

I've been pushing the importance of the Tritone on this list for years.
Some get it some don't.

Dave Woods

Dave, as always an interesting post. I've never really thought about this
....

A minor Aeolian is all the white keys.
A minor Dorian adds an F#
A minor phrygian adds a Bb.

So, now we're choosing notes, in the key of C, as follows.

A Bb B C D E F Gb G

That's 9 notes. The only ones that aren't there are Db, Eb and Ab

How do I use this? Can you give me an example of a tune and an approach?
Sorry to burden you with this question, but if you need help, you ask a
generous man.

Thanks,

Rick

>
> >
>
>
>
>

[funkifized34]

--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, Joe Gentile <jgentile@...> wrote:
>
> >

> > I suspect that Misty is this way, too. The original key for that is
> > G!
>
> The original key for Misty is Ab
>
> Joe
>
> Joe Gentile
> IPExperts.com
> 114 Clarkson Executive Park
> St. Louis, MO 63011
> 800.442.5191

> jgentile@...

My mistake. I knew that, I just confused that knowledge with the fact that Wes played Misty in G. There's only so much information that fits in my head. Every time I learn something new, something else falls out the bottom...

------------------------------------

[thomas schönsgibl]

hi,

----- Original Message -----
From: "akmbirch"
> Bradley Lehman, a researcher of historical temperaments and a performer of
> Bach's music, has a great web-site on this topic:
>
> http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bpl/larips/index.html
>
> Lecture:
> http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bpl/larips/informal.html
>

btw: did you read what he wrote under "a hand-drawn puzzle"? (2nd link)
bach made a border decoration on the title page of his main copy of "the
well-tempered clavier". to me it looks like some donuts connected with some
archs.
lehman sees a kind of tunnig or a kind of scale ( F C G D A E G# D# A#)
in this drawing. is this a joke, that i don't understand? who else see this
notennames in that drawing?
sorry!! but that is very strange to me.
nice day
bye
thomas

[Greg Macmillan]

I just love the sound of a standard drop 2 Cmaj7 in root pos on the 3rd
fret with the A melody note above on the 1st string, pretty conventional
sound Cmaj13,

cheers Greg

funkifized34 wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com

> <mailto:jazz_guitar%40yahoogroups.com>, "akmbirch" <akmbirch@...> wrote:
> >
> > On the Real Book ...
> >
> > The Real book (in Em) has the last four measures as |Cmaj7 | F#m7b5
> B7 | Em7 | Em7 |
> >
> > The main melody note over Cmaj7 is A! Please, please do not voice
> the chord with a zinging B.
> >
> > Cmaj7 is a substitute chord for F#m7b5! Many pro's play C13.
> >
> > Sadly too many musicians play the real book changes without using
> their ears!
> >
> > --
> > Alisdair MacRae Birch
> > Guitarist/Bassist/Educator/Arranger

> > http://www.alisdair.com <http://www.alisdair.com>

[Dub Deklawni]

The girl-singer in my group sings "Autumn Leaves" in Dm; she says it's the key Rita Reys uses on "Jazz Pictures At An Exhibition" (1961). Same key as Bach ;-)

Anyway, in terms of thinking: the tune in one flat (F or Dm) offers the fun of using a B natural and a C# in the last 3 bars of the A part,treating the A7 as a dom7 for Dm7-Dm6; or a Bb and a C#, over A7b9 (Bbdim) in the B part.

In the C part, after descending with the Dm7-Dbm7-Cm7-B7, I like to hit a Bb6 for a dark gypsy sound (so unhip) then flat the five on it (F->E: can think of this as Gm7->C9) to head into the Em7b5->A7b9 change: this yields a nice voice line in the chords of F->E->D->C#->D(->B).