[jazz_guitar] Playing Speed and relaxation

[cornishprat]

Hi all,
Thought I'd share this article with you, I think It will transform your playing if carried out as described. Hope it works as well for you as it did for me.
http://www.guitarprinciples.com/GettingBetter/secret_of_speed.html
Kevin

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jazz_guitar/

<*> Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jazz_guitar/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
jazz_guit...@yahoogroups.com
jazz_guitar-...@yahoogroups.com

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
jazz_guitar...@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

[akmbirch]

--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "cornishprat" <kevinrhart@...> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
> Thought I'd share this article with you, I think It will transform your playing if carried out as described. Hope it works as well for you as it did for me.
> http://www.guitarprinciples.com/GettingBetter/secret_of_speed.html

A good teacher is the best option, but I know most guitarist are jonesing to spend their money on yet another book/course so, check
out an old thread:

http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/jazz_guitar/message/72741

[Jay Mitchell]

funkifized34 wrote:

> This Kumbaya crap is useless and wrong. Spending
> excess time on studying how your finger touches
> the string is time far better spent on actually
> playing the damned instrument.

Interesting. So let me make sure I understand what you're saying: is it your
considered position that the professor who teaches classical guitar at SMU
here in Dallas is promoting "useless and wrong" exercises when he teaches a
very similar exercise?

I've had a number of schooled guitarists recommend this same kind of
exercise to me over the past 35 years, and IT REALLY HELPS. Far from being
"kumbaya crap," it helps promote physical and emotional self-awareness, both
of which are important elements in any kind of musical expression, whether
you are reading music or not.

Jay

[Ron Murray]

Not all students are the same. Spending time studying how your finger
touches the string is really more important for many students and
players than you claim. George Van Eps addresses this very concept,
as do many other masters. This isn't anything new.

On Nov 10, 2009, at 11:40 AM, funkifized34 wrote:

>
>
> --- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "cornishprat" <kevinrhart@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi all,
> > Thought I'd share this article with you, I think It will
> transform your playing if carried out as described. Hope it works
> as well for you as it did for me.
> > http://www.guitarprinciples.com/GettingBetter/secret_of_speed.html

> > Kevin

> >
>
> This Kumbaya crap is useless and wrong. Spending excess time on
> studying how your finger touches the string is time far better
> spent on actually playing the damned instrument.
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[funkifized34]

--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "cornishprat" <kevinrhart@...> wrote:
>

> Hi all,
> Thought I'd share this article with you, I think It will transform your playing if carried out as described. Hope it works as well for you as it did for me.
> http://www.guitarprinciples.com/GettingBetter/secret_of_speed.html
> Kevin
>

This Kumbaya crap is useless and wrong. Spending excess time on studying how your finger touches the string is time far better spent on actually playing the damned instrument. Also, I and most educated music teachers have had much success with teaching beginning guitarists from day one to read music. This guitarprinciples.com site is filled with one-sided, misinformed teaching methods that wastes the serious student's time. If I spent anywhere near as much time as the author suggests on having the student "let the index finger drop from it's own weight into the palm of your right hand" and study how the finger touches the string, I'd be looking for a different job. As far as reading music goes, the first problem with this site is the assumption that the very beginner guitarist is a child. I have lots of beginners who are adults. Additionally, this crap about having to teach the child beginner fractions is way out of line. My experience, as I have also witnessed in most other teachers, is that the young child is already in a state of mind to learn new things, and are not that far away from learning that characters on the page mean different things. Young children are the perfect candidates for teaching music reading to, hence all the beginning guitar methods.

I love when a "teacher" comes along thinking that he/she is going to revolutionize guitar instruction and throws away everything that has been done previously in the area which many, many experts have thrived and worked through. I've got a 6-year-old guitar student that can sightread better than many professional players. Good thing I didn't throw away the music-reading ideas with her and try to just teach her to play by ear.

Next: let's throw away the system of music notation we've been using for hundreds of years and start using colors, numbers, or some such thing. Put on your tinfoil hats, we're going to start learning guitar the "modern" way...

Sheesh.

[Bob Hansmann]

> I have heard that Carmine Caruso, a great trumpet teacher, was so into
> having players play with as little pressure against the lips as possible
> that he hung a trumpet from the ceiling on strings and had the student
> walk
> up to the horn and play w/o touching it...

I had an old girlfriend who... oh, wait. That's for a later crowd...

:-),
Bobby

[JVeg...@aol.com]

Bet you weren't singin' "Kumbaya", either...

Cheers,
JV

Juan Vega

bobby...@verizon.net writes:

I had an old girlfriend who...

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

[JVeg...@aol.com]

"This Kumbaya crap is useless and wrong."

Er, OK then, how do you REALLY feel??? Actually, I think
there's a bit of value in examining some of the physical aspects
of playing the guitar, especially for beginners. Learning to play
guitar is a lot like learning to ride a bike, there are mental,
visual, and physical/kinetic aspects that need to coalesce in
order to make things work. I spend a lot of time trying to get
my beginning students to develop a tension-free playing
posture, good hand position, etc, because as I tell them,
"practice makes permanent", and if you practice the wrong thing
a lot, you can get really good at it.

Those of us who play folk/jazz/rock/pop/blues/etc, kind of get a
"pass", because we can fudge quite a bit of things when it comes
to technique; classical/flamenco/Brazilian players don't have the
same "luxury", so they work really hard at developing good chops,
and it shows not just visually, but when it comes time to play as
well.

There are guitar educators out there who have spent a lot of time
examining the physical aspects of guitar playing, and I think it's
worth exploring/examining their efforts, even if it's just for the sake
of information. Dennis Sandole (whose pupils included Pat Martino)
had a whole theory (and exercises) about the relationships bet'n
fingers, etc. Another great book is "Pumping Nylon"; it's full of
really good (and challenging) exercises, and Mauro Giuliani's 120
right-hand exercises is extremely useful as well.

Not all of the stuff out there is "useless and wrong", but where it all
falls flat on its face is when the live, in the room teacher is taken out
of the equation. If this kind of material is utilized in an individual
lesson (or even in a classroom) situation, then its value increases,
because of the interactive component. At least, that's my .02.

BTW, I totally agree w/ you on the need to develop music reading
ability...

Cheers,
JV

Juan Vega

[JamesM]

In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "funkifized34" <Funkifized@...> wrote:
This Kumbaya crap is useless and wrong. Spending excess time on studying how your finger touches the string is time far better spent on actually playing the damned instrument.

I hear you, but don't completely agree. Learning 'touch' on the guitar is crucial. I have had many students experience ah ha! moments when thinking about and feeling the necessary force to make strings sound.
In teaching I try and show how extra force, particularly with the fretting hand, is unnecessary, counter productive, and dangerous. If I have misunderstood, excuse me.
At any rate, Come by here, My Lord. I need any help You would give. ;-)
Jim

[Bob Hansmann]

> Bet you weren't singin' "Kumbaya", either...

I sure was!

best,
Bobby

[Chris Smart]

At 01:50 PM 11/10/2009, you wrote:
>Bet you weren't singin' "Kumbaya", either...

No, but you got the first syllable.

[Bob Hansmann]

> Maybe, teachers should give the kids a shot of vodka before the session...
> j/k of course..:-)

My students prefer Scotch. They're classier, I guess, but, as I said,
they are the upper 5%.

:-),
Bobby

[Bob Hansmann]

> I love when a "teacher" comes along thinking that he/she is going to
> revolutionize guitar instruction and throws away everything that has
> been done previously in the area which many, many experts have thrived
> and worked through.

I haven't seen the site, and so cannot comment. But this statement is
true and poignant. So many claim to have reinvented the wheel, it seems,
while what they really want to do is sell their system, book, or
whatever. This is surprising, why?

On your comments regarding reading, new lows are attained every day, it
seems. I recently had to download a tune in TAB because it wasn't
available at all in notation. The TAB sheet had instructions on how to
read TAB "for those who aren't studying", the implication being that the
proper study of guitar employs the use of TAB, I suppose.

This is nothing new, though. My guess has always been that around 5% of
all who pick up the guitar actually become real students of it. I don't
think that's changed all that much. As a teacher, I'm always looking for
that 5%, leaving the rest to someone who wants them (and there are lots
who want them), and I do pretty good.

best,
Bobby

[Angelo]

This Kumbaya crap is useless and wrong. Spending excess time on studying how
> your finger touches the string is time far better spent on actually playing
> the damned instrument.

Sounds like you have a very tight finger grip... :-)

I have heard that Carmine Caruso, a great trumpet teacher, was so into
having players play with as little pressure against the lips as possible
that he hung a trumpet from the ceiling on strings and had the student walk

up to the horn and play w/o touching it...A bit more dramatic than dropping
a finger onto one's palm, but the lesson is the same...
I have a friend who plays sax with such a tight bite that he literally bites
through the mouthpiece AND the protective pads he puts on it.. There is no
need for that to get a good sound on a horn...
Relaxation is the key to almost everything we do...
I think that the use of drugs and alcohol is an attempt to reach a state of
relaxation while playing.

Maybe, teachers should give the kids a shot of vodka before the session...
j/k of course..:-)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

[Blake Wilson]

On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 11:41 AM, Bob Hansmann <bobby...@verizon.net>wrote:

> My students prefer Scotch. They're classier, I guess, but, as I said,
> they are the upper 5%.

Unless that Scotch comes in a plastic 1.5L jug, in which case they are
probably the lower 5%....

:^)

Blake

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

[Ron Becker]

Anyone who has spent any time in the CG world taking lessons or
working from books knows you say is true Juan. The mechanics of
playing are nearly irrelevant to playing Walk Don't Run or the head
to Autumn Leaves. But to get much beyond that you kneed all the
advantages you can muster. Availing yourself of the correct
mechanics to play accurately, or cleanly is the foundation for
acquiring better playing skills.

The post we are responding to, I heard reenacted countless in lift
lines at the ski area where I taught skiing. It's really not true
for skiing and playing an instrument has counter intuitive aspects to
it just as skiing does. Things that are fine on the bunny and
intermediate slopes, will not get you down a steep bump run. Music is
no different.
Ron
Living and playing outside the box.

http://www.myspace.com/ron45becker

[Ron Becker]

DId this involve a basket?

Ron
Living and playing outside the box.

http://www.myspace.com/ron45becker

On Nov 10, 2009, at 11:43 AM, Bob Hansmann wrote:

> > I have heard that Carmine Caruso, a great trumpet teacher, was so
> into
> > having players play with as little pressure against the lips as
> possible
> > that he hung a trumpet from the ceiling on strings and had the
> student
> > walk
> > up to the horn and play w/o touching it...
>
> I had an old girlfriend who... oh, wait. That's for a later crowd...
>
> :-),
> Bobby
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

[John Amato]

Bucks?

Bingo ... down comes the Groucho duck! ... you win the cigar!

...........

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

[Bob Hansmann]

> one who called himself "Dr. so and so."...

My students lovingly call me 'Dr. Pain'. I probably deserve it.... :-)

Bobby

[Bob Hansmann]

> I don't know about you, but my practice hours are "precious and few",
> and which would you rather spend practice time doing, doing exercises
> "laying your finger across your right-hand palm, using only the weight
> of the finger", or...

OK. I've let my weight of my fingers move them into my palm for 3
episodes of 'Bones'. So far, they have yet to reach my palm. What now?

[Bob Hansmann]

Hi Juan,
>
> Why would CG players not want a good rest stroke?

I've heard just about every argument against it you could imagine, but
the most honest I heard was from a player: "There too hard."

best,

[Bob Hansmann]

hmmm....
A 'She' write a book, and in it includes something called
> Finger Flapping

I'm waaaaay too sick to continue in this thread. Carry on, Boys :-)

[John Amato]

. Learning to play
guitar is a lot like learning to ride a bike, there are mental,
visual, and physical/kinetic aspects that need to coalesce in
order to make things work. I spend a lot of time trying to get
my beginning students to develop a tension-free playing
posture, good hand position, etc, because as I tell them,
"practice makes permanent", and if you practice the wrong thing
a lot, you can get really good at it.

.........
--
yeah, hmm, like falling off the bike, bruising your shins, picking the bike up, getting back on and doing it again ... learning to balance ..... falling off the bike, bruising your shins, picking the bike up, getting back on and doing it again ... learning to balance .....falling off the bike, bruising your shins, picking the bike up, getting back on and doing it again ... learning to balance .....falling off the bike, bruising your shins, picking the bike up, getting back on and doing it again ... learning to balance .....falling off the bike, bruising your shins, picking the bike up, getting back on and doing it again ... learning to balance .....falling off the bike, bruising your shins, picking the bike up, getting back on and doing it again ... learning to balance .....falling off the bike, bruising your shins, picking the bike up, getting back on and doing it again ... learning to balance .....falling off the bike, bruising your shins, picking the
bike up, getting back on and doing it again ... learning to balance .....falling off the bike, bruising your shins, picking the bike up, getting back on and doing it again ... learning to balance .....falling off the bike, bruising your shins, picking the bike up, getting back on and doing it again ... learning to balance .....falling off the bike, bruising your shins, picking the bike up, getting back on and doing it again ... learning to balance .....falling off the bike, bruising your shins, picking the bike up, getting back on and doing it again ... learning to balance .....falling off the bike, bruising your shins, picking the bike up, getting back on and doing it again ... learning to balance .....falling off the bike, bruising your shins, picking the bike up, getting back on and doing it again ... learning to balance .....falling off the bike, bruising your shins, picking the bike up, getting back on and doing it again ... learning to balance
.....falling off the bike, bruising your shins, picking the bike up, getting back on and doing it again ... learning to balance .....!

[Bob Hansmann]

Sorry about that, Ron,
I just couldn't resist. And thanks for being such a gentleman about it
(yes, I am aware that I really didn't give you the chance to NOT be a
gentleman about it - I'm not so stupid, after all... :-) )

best,
Bobby

[John Amato]

> Maybe, teachers should give the kids a shot of vodka before the session...
> j/k of course..:-)

My students prefer Scotch. They're classier, I guess, but, as I said,
they are the upper 5%.

:-),
Bobby

_......................

How 'bout a nice warm glass of milk with cookies .... or maybe a trytophan capsule to relax like after a huge turkey dinner at Thanksgiving, when you just want to lay on the couch .... turkey is loaded with trytophan ... and so is milk .....kies....

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

[Bob Hansmann]

Oh, now I feel real smart! I don't deserve a cigar for that performance.
I'll treat myself to a Marlboro Light, instead, and accept my penance.

Bobby

[Bob Hansmann]

Bucks?

[Bob Hansmann]

>
> DId this involve a basket?

No. She once said that that was her gay brother's thing...

...

Ron!?!?!?!?!

Bobby

[rguitarjj]

I wouldn't call it crap. Especially not if it works for somebody. And lord knows I could have used more focus on touch control at the time I was forming my long term bad habits.

That said, anytime I get instructions like "close your eyes and fully experience ... ", my reaction is "kumbaya crap" too. That doesn't make it right.

[Jay Mitchell]

I have no interest in defending the site. My response this morning was
specifically to this remark:

> This Kumbaya crap is useless and wrong. Spending
> excess time on studying how your finger touches
> the string is time far better spent on actually
> playing the damned instrument.

My present teacher teaches similar exercises - not to do for an entire
session, but to do occasionally for a few minutes to recalibrate your touch
and to help prevent bad habits. Dave Woods has made the point on this list
that your thumb should not function as a clamp, and he has explained
position-changing exercises that involve allowing your wrist to move under
the force of gravity alone.

There is obviously no "secret to speed." There's only a lot of steady work
at putting all the elements together in a way that works for you. That does
not invalidate the touch exercise, nor does it invalidate the concept of
becoming aware of your emotional and physical state and learning to use that
awareness to your advantage.

I read no further on the site that the one finger exercise. I agree it is
stupid and counterproductive to recommend that any sighted person not learn
to read music, but it is neither stupid nor counterproductive to encourage
students to learn to eliminate excess tension and/or motion in their
playing. As for the way Pat Martino plays guitar, it certainly works for
him, but I don't believe you'll find very many guitar teachers promoting his
technique nonetheless, and I have a feeling that it won't work quite as well
for most other players as it does for him.

Had you originally offered the detailed observations you just posted rather
than going off about "kumbaya crap," my response would have been entirely
different.

Jay

[John Amato]

Learning 'touch' on the guitar is crucial.

.......
Yeah, I can just see me doing this lesson: lifting finger, lowering finger, don't touch, touch string, pointing to palm, lifting palm, rising, pressing, lifting, pressing, not pressing, Yikes! .... (sounds like a Asian message session...)
EGADs ... I'd get too stink'n nervous just doing the freek'n exercise ... I know me: I'd just crash right into a real cool C9 arpeggio on the 8th fret and then trash the "Light Finger" thingy as I approach the 13th fret!
For me it's called "Nervous Nirvana"

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

[Bob Hansmann]

> No, but you got the first syllable.

CHRIS!!!!!!
Well, I am shocked!!!

Bobby

[guit...@comcast.net]

> If I spent anywhere near as much time as the author suggests on having the student "let the index finger drop from it's own weight into the palm of your right hand" and study how the finger touches the string<
About 35 years ago when I was becoming serious about classical guitar, my first teacher moved away and I was looking for another. I took an introductory lesson from one who called himself "Dr. so and so." He didn't ask me to play a piece, or a scale or a chord ot anything except to pluck one of the strings with my index finger. He spent 20 minutes or more sitting on the floor looking up at my attack and telling me how to move my finger to get the best attack. Needless to say, I never went back.
Brad

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[John Amato]

> Bobby,
>
> Yeah, it's called $$$$$$$$$$$$
>
> $ ... starts with a B -- ends with S .... and the middle rhymes with
> how we all got here!
>

But it may as well have been, because I do agree with it. Please explain
the rest of your post, though. I feel stupid, but I really didn't get it.

best,
Bobby

... the middle rhymes with, in fact sounds exactly like male antlered animals ....originally I was referring it to the vulgar form of love making ..._,_ ._,___

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

[JVeg...@aol.com]

Bobby,

Why would CG players not want a good rest stroke? Wow,
mine is really weak, and I think that is actually a detriment
to my playing, but... Go figure.

Cheers,
JV

Juan Vega

_bobby...@verizon.net_ (mailto:bobby...@verizon.net) writes:

somewhere in the early 70's, around the time that many CGers started
dissing the rest stroke (apoyando) as well.

[Bob Hansmann]

Nice post, Juan,

> Er, OK then, how do you REALLY feel??? Actually, I think
> there's a bit of value in examining some of the physical aspects

> of playing the guitar, especially for beginners....&., &.

The issue of left hand pressure gets disputed every so often. Generally,
the "old school" guys like me go for practicing slow at first, and using
lots of pressure - "burning it into the muscles", so to speak, and the
younger, more "California influenced" (my words) players trying to play
lightly.

It's an argument I started hearing from 'Guitar Player' magazine

somewhere in the early 70's, around the time that many CGers started
dissing the rest stroke (apoyando) as well.

Except to say that Californians would do well to keep in mind that this
world belongs to the meat eaters,. it's an argument I won't participate
in because, like that on reading, it goes nowhere fast. But the argument
that dissing all that came before because one has something "new" to
sell is fraud is valid. as Solomon said, "There is nothing new under the
sun".

peace, flowers, & love,
Bobby

[John Amato]

> I love when a "teacher" comes along thinking that he/she is going to
> revolutionize guitar instruction and throws away everything that has
> been done previously in the area which many, many experts have thrived
> and worked through.

Bobby,

Yeah, it's called $$$$$$$$$$$$$ ... starts with a B -- ends with S .... and the middle rhymes with how we all got here!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

[Bob Hansmann]

John,
That quoted post wasn't mine.

> > I love when a "teacher" comes along thinking that he/she is going to
> > revolutionize guitar instruction and throws away everything that has
> > been done previously in the area which many, many experts have thrived
> > and worked through.
>
> Bobby,
>
> Yeah, it's called $$$$$$$$$$$$
>
> $ ... starts with a B -- ends with S .... and the middle rhymes with
> how we all got here!
>

But it may as well have been, because I do agree with it. Please explain

the rest of your post, though. I feel stupid, but I really didn't get it.

best,
Bobby

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Bob Hansmann]

> As far as promoting it as a "sure fire" method for all players is
> another mater involving subjective interpretations of methods and
> purposes one subscribes to -- there are many methods that work for
> individual requirements -- that's why it's so hard and
> incomprehensible for me to create a "one-size-fita-
>
> all" method -- that makes no sense and can be retrogressive ....
>

Well said. Many of the materials I use to teach with are practically
unrecognizable by the time I'm finished with them; and that varies from
student to student. Discussing one "method" is usually fruitless (other
than just a general 'good' or 'bad').

This is one area where a good teacher is important. Trying to learn from
a book, CD, video, &c., alone at home usually has a built in ceiling,
and many misconceptions. To me, those materials serve well only as
supplemental aids at best, regardless of the author. For example, I tend
now to get many students who have tried to learn by themselves from
'Pumping Nylon'. The book is fairly good, but far from a complete
course, and the misunderstandings by relative beginners are many,
indeed. Undoing those misunderstandings can be very frustrating for the
student, who now has to face not just spending the monies he was trying
to avoid having to spend by trying to learn on his own in the first
place, but also the time lost in that endeavor.

The argument that many aspiring guitarists just don't have anyone good
in the area to study under is valid, and mostly without remedy. Most who
live in the fringe areas do so to get away from people, and teachers
must either live in populated areas or go broke. It's just a fact. I've
had students travel very far to get to me, and regularly, but that
degree of dedication is rare. I'm proud to call Andy, on this list, my
student. He's very, very far away, but was willing to pay me fairly to
come to him for a week, which, in HIS case, I'm more than willing to do
because he is such a rare and first class human being.

My point is that we do what we can. I am a believer in the
apprenticeship system when it comes to music because I've seen its
success so many times, in my own life and in the lives of my students.

[John Amato]

In this guy's book he has a section called "10 Things You Can Do Right Now To Become A Better Guitarist! Get it now!"

OK, Yes, I too tell my students "10 Things You can Do Right Now To Become A Better Guitarist: ... nothing to do with a "Light Finger" rising up and own over the strings like an invisible guitaristic mantra ...

Here it is:

1. PRACTICE
2. PRACTICE
3. PRACTICE
4. PRACTICE
5. PRACTICE
6. PRACTICE
7. PRACTICE
8. PRACTICE
9. PRACTICE
10. PRACTICE

[funkifized34]

Well, first, this website and book is not classical guitar-specific. Second, this "teacher" feels that one should spend a fair amount of time working on this every day. I don't know about you, but my practice hours are "precious and few", and which would you rather spend practice time doing, doing exercises "laying your finger across your right-hand palm, using only the weight of the finger", or practicing fingering exercises on the guitar? The one player that I've seen that has some of the worst fretting technique I've ever seen is Pat Martino. He raises his fingers *very* high off of the fingerboard as he plays. I'd say he plays pretty fast and clean as hell. The page we're talking about is title "The Secret Of Speed". In regards to Martino, would you really say that this is a secret?

The instructions cite: "Raise your finger an inch, and then bring it back to touch the string again in the same way. Do this over and over, touching the string with the Light Finger, bringing it away, and touching it again. This is called Finger Flapping. Do this a few times with each finger every day."

Do you really think that this is the secret to playing speed? Not practicing scales and arpeggios at slow speeds? Puh-leeze. By the way, if you check out the videos from this "teacher", her classical chops are pretty good, but when she switches to electric and shows some "R&B" playing, the technique and sound is miserable. Embarrassing, actually.

Additionally, the point about reading music goes on to cite "Who Shouldn't (Necessarily) Learn to Read Music:

1)Anyone who really doesn't want to.

2)Anyone who is planning on being only a blues/rock musician or a folk musician.

3)Most people who are just starting to learn to play the guitar."

I've never heard such condescending, inconsistent crap. Let's turn this around to a similar situation:

--Who Shouldn't (Necessarily) Learn to Read English:

1)Anyone who really doesn't want to. How would you feel about your kid's teacher saying this about his/her learning at school?

2)Anyone who is planning on being only a, oh, let's say garbage collector or a street sweeper. Does this seem a bit condescending?

3)People who are just learning the language. Hmmm, when you took Spanish in high school, did your start out learning out of a book or did the teacher just keep bombarding you with Spanish words until you "got it"?

Why is this acceptable for guitar but not for language skills?

--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, Ron Murray <rmurray@...> wrote:
>
> Not all students are the same. Spending time studying how your finger
> touches the string is really more important for many students and
> players than you claim. George Van Eps addresses this very concept,
> as do many other masters. This isn't anything new.
>
>
> On Nov 10, 2009, at 11:40 AM, funkifized34 wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > --- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "cornishprat" <kevinrhart@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi all,
> > > Thought I'd share this article with you, I think It will
> > transform your playing if carried out as described. Hope it works
> > as well for you as it did for me.
> > > http://www.guitarprinciples.com/GettingBetter/secret_of_speed.html
> > > Kevin

> > >
> >
> > This Kumbaya crap is useless and wrong. Spending excess time on
> > studying how your finger touches the string is time far better
> > spent on actually playing the damned instrument.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>

[John Amato]

I've had a number of schooled guitarists recommend this same kind of
exercise to me over the past 35 years, and IT REALLY HELPS. Far from being
"kumbaya crap," it helps promote physical and emotional self-awareness, both
of which are important elements in any kind of musical expression, whether
you are reading music or not.

Jay


.... all that matters is if this works for you, great.

As far as promoting it as a "sure fire" method for all players is another mater involving subjective interpretations of methods and purposes one subscribes to -- there are many methods that work for individual requirements -- that's why it's so hard and incomprehensible for me to create a "one-size-fita-all" method -- that makes no sense and can be retrogressive ....

[Dave Woods]

_____

I say this, some people are gifted with the ability to play fast, and some
aren't. Watching Jack Wilkins move around his apartment,.was like_watching
a squirrel . He has "natural" speed. His metabolism is like that. I've seen
people who's technique in terms of hand posture was bad bad bad, ,and yet
they could play fast.

I never did have an ability like this. I had to get down analyze and
carefully study this aspect of playing. Because of this I've ironed out all
the "bugs" in my technique, I can accurately explain economy of motion to
others, but I'm still not fast, never was, and never will be. Fuck it, go
on ahead and play.

I concentrate on hearing and playing what I feel in the moment. Although
like everyone else, I repeat myself, nothing is worked out and practiced
over and over like the Arpeggios From Hell clip I saw on UTube. Jim Hall is
an example of someone who's not gifted with natural speed, he like me has to
do the best he can with what he's got. As a result, he's creatively
melodic, and communicative.

Dave Woods

___

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

[r.]

I concentrate on hearing and playing what I feel in the moment. Although
like everyone else, I repeat myself, nothing is worked out and practiced
over and over like the Arpeggios From Hell clip I saw on UTube. Jim Hall is
an example of someone who's not gifted with natural speed, he like me has to
do the best he can with what he's got. As a result, he's creatively
melodic, and communicative

Also, John Abercrombie is playing with his thumb, don't think the guy
cares much about speed ..I just don't find many guys who play fast
are melodic..I know..there are exceptions..( Metheny)..I took lessions
years ago from a Dennis Sandole student..it was all about technique
with the goal of developing a hard bebop style and it did work for me
at the time..If the goal is to rip it then you will benift from this
type of study..

[Brian Kelly]

----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Woods
To: jazz_...@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 5:43 AM
Subject: RE: [jazz_guitar] Re: Playing Speed and relaxation


Dave,

I love it every time you tell this story about Jack Wilkins. It is so true. He was born to play that fast. It is a part of both his physical and mental make-up. When I stayed with him a few years ago he was up at 8 AM, making breakfast and scatting bebop solos. He plays the piano in exactly the same manner that he plays the guitar. There is absolutely no diference. That's the way he hears music. It is so much a a part of his make-up that if you ask him how you can learn to play that fast he really doesn't know what you are talking about because he assumes that if he can do it anyone can. It's also not a big deal with him. It's just one of the many things he can do with a guitar. He doesn't truly practice the guitar anymore although when he was young he practiced as much as anybody I know of.. These days when he plays the guitar at home it is more likely that he will learn a new melody (not necessarilly a jazz or standard tune) or reharmonize some melody he likes rather than practicing for speed. What I like about Jack's technique is is how precise it is. He can play incredubly fast at almost a whisper and often does. If you listen to him closely even when he plays a lot of notes he mixes it up and the really fast lines are more of a decoration that he does rather than the main idea. His new CD doesn't really feature much super fast playing and he thinks it may be the best recording he has ever done. Some people may be surprised by this but I am not, it's just the way he is as a person and a musician. I sort of hate it when the first thing people acknowledge about Jack's talent is how fast he ie is. I always think that if that is primarill all you hear when you listen to Jack you are missing the point in a big way.




Brian Kelly

_____

I say this, some people are gifted with the ability to play fast, and some
aren't. Watching Jack Wilkins move around his apartment,.was like_watching
a squirrel . He has "natural" speed. His metabolism is like that. I've seen
people who's technique in terms of hand posture was bad bad bad, ,and yet
they could play fast.

I never did have an ability like this. I had to get down analyze and
carefully study this aspect of playing. Because of this I've ironed out all
the "bugs" in my technique, I can accurately explain economy of motion to
others, but I'm still not fast, never was, and never will be. Fuck it, go
on ahead and play.

I concentrate on hearing and playing what I feel in the moment. Although
like everyone else, I repeat myself, nothing is worked out and practiced
over and over like the Arpeggios From Hell clip I saw on UTube. Jim Hall is
an example of someone who's not gifted with natural speed, he like me has to
do the best he can with what he's got. As a result, he's creatively
melodic, and communicative.

Dave Woods

[JVeg...@aol.com]

Jack Wilkins is "not of this world", that's for sure. As Brian says,
it's not just about speed, either. There's a lot of depth and great
stuff in his playing, melodically, harmonically; if you can get past
the sheer technical ability, give a real listen, you'll be glad you did...

On the opposite end of that spectrum is someone like Jim Hall,
who can do anything he wants to on the guitar, and approaches it
from a completely different perspective. That's what makes our
instrument such a cool one!

Cheers,
JV

Juan Vega

[Ron Becker]

Interesting family.

Ron
Living and playing outside the box.

http://www.myspace.com/ron45becker

On Nov 10, 2009, at 3:25 PM, Bob Hansmann wrote:

> >
> > DId this involve a basket?
>
> No. She once said that that was her gay brother's thing...
>
> ...
>
> Ron!?!?!?!?!
>
> Bobby
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

[Brian Kelly]

My idea of the complete spectrum of possibilities for playing is Kenny Burrell on one end of the spectrum and Jack Wilkins on the other.

Brian

----- Original Message -----
From: JVeg...@aol.com
To: jazz_...@yahoogroups.com

[Bob Hansmann]

Hi ron,
> Interesting family.

Yes. They keep their mother on a cot underneath the floor boards. But,
hey - doesn't everybody?

best,
Bobby

[Dave Woods]

Such as it is, I have my take on this subject on my website.

http://www.jazzguitarstartingright.com/left%20hand%20right%20hand.pdf

Dave Woods

_____

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

[Jay Mitchell]

Dave Woods wrote:

> Such as it is, I have my take on this subject on my website.

Thanks for the link, Dave. I saved it this time for future reference. The
advice in this one piece of yours has been extremely helpful to me, and I've
been putting it to use ever since you first made reference to it some time
ago. If this is too touchy-feeIy for some folks, my response is
"Kum-bay-freaking-ya." ;)

Jay

[Dave Woods]

Thanks Jay,

I say if you want the girls in the audience to

"Kum-Bay-You"

Get in touch with your finger sensitivity

Dave Woods

_____

From: jazz_...@yahoogroups.com [mailto:jazz_...@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Jay Mitchell
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 11:02 AM
To: jazz_...@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [jazz_guitar] Re: Playing Speed and relaxation

Dave Woods wrote:

> Such as it is, I have my take on this subject on my website.

Thanks for the link, Dave. I saved it this time for future reference. The
advice in this one piece of yours has been extremely helpful to me, and I've

been putting it to use ever since you first made reference to it some time
ago. If this is too touchy-feeIy for some folks, my response is
"Kum-bay-freaking-ya." ;)

Jay

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

[Dub Deklawni]

I have a seven-year-old daughter and five year-old son, both of whom can read basic chords and melody on the grand staff without hesitation. What's more neither of them remember a time when they could not read music, because I started them learning when they were two and a half! :-)

Ciao,

Dub

[JVeg...@aol.com]

Those mushrooms from the 60s must be kicking in, you guys
are going real far afield here...

That said, I highly recommend the documentary "Crumb", which
is about American cartoonist Robert "R." Crumb. He certainly comes
from an "interesting" family, to say the least.

Cheers,
JV

Juan Vega

In a message dated 11/12/2009 12:02:33 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
ro...@tularosa.net writes:

My Mom is in a jar.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

[Bob Hansmann]

> I have a seven-year-old daughter and five year-old son, both of whom

> can read basic chords and melody on the grand staff without hesitation....

And there ya have it. :-)

best,
Bobby

[Ron Becker]

My Mom is in a jar.

Ron

Living and playing outside the box.

http://www.myspace.com/ron45becker

On Nov 11, 2009, at 3:59 PM, Bob Hansmann wrote:

> Hi ron,
> > Interesting family.
>
> Yes. They keep their mother on a cot underneath the floor boards. But,
> hey - doesn't everybody?
>
> best,
> Bobby
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

[Bob Hansmann]

Juan,

> That said, I highly recommend the documentary "Crumb", which
> is about American cartoonist Robert "R." Crumb. He certainly comes
> from an "interesting" family, to say the least.

I've seen it. Trust me - when it comes to "interesting", he's an amateur...

[Bob Hansmann]

>
> My Mom is in a jar.

You know, we tried that for a while, but it didn't work out. Don't make
the same mistake we did - open the top slowly, or the smell can be quite
overwhelming.

Bobby

[Ron Becker]

Ten Four Juan, thanks for your patience. I should have sent the last
two privately. I always liked R. Crumb's stuff. I'll look forward to
seeing his documentary.

Ron
Living and playing outside the box.

http://www.myspace.com/ron45becker

[guitargirl32]

Well, I want to thank you all for the attention you are paying to my site and teaching methods. I see a number of intelligent comments here, as well as a number of completely ignorant statements which, unfortunately, are dangerous to the progress of the many students out there who have been stuck playing at the same level for years.

Actually, I don't want to try to convince you here with what I write, I simply want to express my feelings and point of view as you all have done. The "Foundation Exercises" in my primary method book "The Principles Of Correct Practice For Guitar" have enabled tens of thousands of students worldwide to succeed at guitar when everything else failed. Many became teacher after that, because my methods work for everyone, as opposed to the hit or miss methods that so many teachers use.

Peopel travel to me from around the world because I give them what they cannot find anywhere else - the reasons why they are stuck at the level they are at, and how to go beyond it. They have had years of lessons from idiotic teachers who don't know what they are doing and have taken their money, and not given them playing ability. Many of these useless teachers had the same attitudes and ignorant viewpoints I read by the naysayers here. You only know how to teach the way you were taught, and you could never match my teaching record, or the accolades you will read about my methods on my website, http://www.guitarprinciples.com

I dare you to visit my site and check out the actual facts of my methods. I dare you to go into my forum and see the reality of what my methods do for people. I would like to hear you tell all the people who have become real players after years of struggle that it is an illusion. If you care so much to have your intense, although ignorant opinions, you should care enough to actually base them on something other than your own close mindedeness and self serving ego crap.

Any real virtuoso knows the truth of what I teach, which is why my methods are used in many universities, and endorsed by so many teachers. My methods are for serious students who want serious progress in abilities, not for low level hackers with lots of opinions and very little knowledge, or real world experience in teaching guitar. My methods are for people who want to understand the real mechanics of aquiring virtuoso technique on guitar, regardless of style.

Very sincerely,

Jamie Andreas
Author of "The Principles Of Correct Practice For Guitar"
www.guitarprinciples.com

[Bob Hansmann]

Jamie Andreas wrote:

> If you care so much to have your intense, although ignorant opinions,
> you should care enough to actually base them on something other than
> your own close mindedeness and self serving ego crap.

Interesting attitude.

>
> Actually, I don't want to try to convince you here with what I write...

Not to worry - you haven't.

Bobby

[Chris Smart]

Jamie,

Thanks for posting here. I have no doubt it will generate a few
responses. :) You sure are self-confident!

Regardless what people say about your methods, you certainly have
managed to systematize your approach and market it very successfully.

Are you willing to give credit to a few other books and methods,
most of them from the classical traidition, that contain many of
the same ideas and principles you aspouse? I would argue that many
of your ideas are in fact quite old. Perhaps your true genius lies
in boiling them down to their esential elements, and packaging them
in such a way as to best take advantage of today's online
educational environment.

My question is about playing though, not teaching. Where can we
hear your playing? A search at www.amazon.com only found
"Touched to My Tenderness: Guitar Classics"
a CD from 1998 that is apparently discontinued.

Chris

P.S. As someone who is blind, let me assure you that you won't get
my full respect until you produce your book in a form I can access
- i.e. Braille or audio, with clear and concise descriptions of all
diagrams or images.

[Chris Smart]

At 06:38 PM 11/16/2009, you wrote:

>I don't play classical, nor will I presume to critique anyone's
>playing of
>that instrument.
Same here. The classical clip is a lot better than I can play on
that instrument.

>For those more familiar with the amplified instrument, here are two
>additional clips:
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mf9noz314w4&feature=channel
Nice vibrato ...

>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_yDAgL8Kt8&feature=channel

The accent is different, but does anybody else find that her voice
sounds a little like Judge Judy? :)

[Angelo]

Chris, with all respect, I don't see a necessary correlation between a great
player and a great teacher. If that great player became great from hard
studying and was observant of the processes he went through AND if he/she is
a great communicator of those processes, then there might be a connection.
I've known many "natural" musicians who could pick up almost any instrument
and play anything they wanted on it, but if you asked them to explain how
they did something, they were at a complete loss...
Because of the sorry state of recompense for musicians in this country, many
great musicians "teach" because they can't support themselves on their
playing abilities. I wonder how many would choose to do this if they were
making enough from their playing. Just because they teach, doesn't mean they
know how to teach. It's a completely different skill set...
As to Jamie's lessons, why would it matter how old these processes are as
long as they are effective. If she has codified many streams of instruction
into a "system" that works, I think she is entitled to earn money from
marketing this system using the newer technologies...
People on this list had a good time making fun of one of the exercises
(finger drop). I saw nothing wrong in someone paying attention to how to get
the most relaxed feeling in their body when playing. Just look at it as Tai
Chi for the guitar (or any other instrument)
A teacher once told me, "The faster you want to play, the slower you have to
practice"
I think anyone who plays eventually becomes aware of this...

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[g_u_i_t_a_r]

Am 17.11.2009 00:13, schrieb Bob Hansmann:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A-5gC-UCiY&feature=related
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A-5gC-UCiY&feature=related>

sorry, but with this "interpretation" she would never has the
possibility to study at an conservatory or university or win a price on
a local competition.
a better one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQVzsYLYKus

best regards
JoCa

[Angelo]

On 11/16/09, Bob Hansmann <bobby...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> Angelo, Chris, et al,

>
>
> > Chris, with all respect, I don't see a necessary correlation between a
> > great
>

> > player and a great teacher.... &c., &c.
>
> This is apparently the guitarist who allegedly made the statement that
> standard notation reading is unnecessary, which sparked a heated
> debate.perhaps she meant that to study her methods, reading was not
> necessary, I don't know, but other than that, I don't remember a lot of
> criticism over a "finger drop", or anything else which was specifically
> in her system.


First, nowhere in her article did she put down reading. To the contrary, she
made a strong case for it and not with the dogmatic reasons given by many
here... Maybe a fair (any) reading of the article might help clear this up.
http://www.guitarprinciples.com/GettingBetter/why_read_music.html

Secondly, there was a long "tee-hee", jr high school level thread about
equating the finger-drop exercise with Kum by ya... don't see how you
missed it. It seemed to go on forever..

Either way, though, I don't care. Her post was an insult to everyone on
> the list, and for that matter, just about any teacher who ever lived:

>
> >
> > Peopel travel to me from around the world because I give them what
> > they cannot find anywhere else - the reasons why they are stuck at the
> > level they are at, and how to go beyond it. They have had years of
> > lessons from idiotic teachers who don't know what they are doing and
> > have taken their money, and not given them playing ability. Many of
> > these useless teachers had the same attitudes and ignorant viewpoints
> > I read by the naysayers here. You only know how to teach the way you
> > were taught, and you could never match my teaching record, or the
> > accolades you will read about my methods on my website,
>
>

> I know I can be hard (as Dave says, I do draw a hard line in the sand),
> but I'm not arrogant. that whole post was arrogant.


She might have toned it down a bit, but I think she was justified in
responding to some of the immature "critiques" of her methods. And as far as
there being idiotic teachers around, I would say that's a given..

Chris, you can
> "stroke her ego" all you want.


That wasn't Chris.. Nobody is stroking her ego. She obviously put a lot of
work into what she is doing and I appreciate that. I was merely pointing out
that Chris' wanting to hear her playing as a validation for her teaching was
not necessarily necessary nor valid.. And now, having checked out her
youtube links I am even more satisfied...

If she wants my respect, she'll just have
> to earn it like anyone else. I don't suck up to women just because
> they're women.

I wasn't even aware that she was a women when I read the article. I just
followed the link. I don't remember her asking for any extra considerations
because she is of the female persuasion..I also don't think that should be
vilified because of that either...

[guitargirl32]

a bit more info.....

Upon further reflection, I would like to add a bit of information relative to understanding the importance of one's basic touch upon the

string in determining the entire functioning of our technique. I would like to do this for the sake of those who are possessed of a sincere

desire of understanding guitar technique, as well as the intelligence to aquire such understanding.

Most people who attempt guitar fail to learn to play at even a basic level. Many who succeed contract technical playing limitations because

of certain conditions that set in right at the beginning of playing. These conditions are unseen, and unknown to most players and teachers.

When we touch a string to play, we are essentially applying force to the flexible medium of the string. The string applies force back to

our finger or pick. This causes a subtle tension reaction in the body. Some of this tension reaction is necessary, but the beginner always

tenses to a great degree. This tension reaction in the beginner is never properly minimized, and never released. It is broght into every

succeeding note, usually increasing.

With each practice session, muscle memory builds this extra tension into all the muscles of the body. This tension is present during all playing, increasing at "difficult" passages. The player does not feel it, considering it ist the normal feeling of playing. They cannot understand how a great player makes it "look so easy" when it impossible for them.

This is why so many players have a hard time with fast scales, their body, unknown to them, is literally tied up with tension, which gets worst the faster they play. This is why so many players lose volume and accuracy as the speed goes up, and why the hallmark of a properly developed player is the ability to play fast and loud. All great players, from Al Dimeola to Pepe Romero, to John McClaughlin know this. That is why they play the way they do. All of them know that the beginning (or end) of technique is the primary touch upon the string.

Every note played, with pick or fingers, left or right hand, is experienced by a great player in 3 Phases: the initial touch, the cycle of pressure (in which body tension is controlled and made conscious, and the playing of the note and simultaneous release of pressure. These phases are done unconsciously by the great player, and the person of natural talent. Anyone can become a great player (technically) if they know these things, and can use them in practice.

That is a small bit of the underlying theory behind the fact that our basic touch upon the string is so vital, and why the key to fixing a players flawed technique, and raise their level as a player, always involves adjusting the primary mechanic of their touch upon the string.

Thus, those beginning exercises to this process which you have read in that essay. Believe me, it is only the tip of the iceberg of my methods.

Jamie Andreas
www.guitarprinciples.com


[Moderator Note: Subject changed to maintain thread]

[Chris Smart]

Hi Angelo.

At 05:36 PM 11/16/2009, you wrote:
>Chris, with all respect, I don't see a necessary correlation
>between a great
>player and a great teacher.

Neither do I. However, it is always nice to see or should I say
hear that they can put their methods into practice.

>I've known many "natural" musicians who could pick up almost any
>instrument
>and play anything they wanted on it, but if you asked them to
>explain how
>they did something, they were at a complete loss...

Again, we agree. I've seen many a pro do that in a master
class/clinic situation too. Anybody ever attended a Kenny Wheeler
clinic? :)

>Because of the sorry state of recompense for musicians in this
>country, many
>great musicians "teach" because they can't support themselves on their
>playing abilities.

As do I, although I enjoy teaching, especially beginners.

>I wonder how many would choose to do this if they were
>making enough from their playing. Just because they teach, doesn't
>mean they
>know how to teach. It's a completely different skill set...

We're in total agreement on this.

>As to Jamie's lessons, why would it matter how old these processes
>are as
>long as they are effective.

It wouldn't matter at all, except the way Jamie presents it, she
came up with all of it.

My post to her seems to have hit a nerve with you... sorry about that.
It doesn't look like she needs defenders though, with as she says,
people traveling from all over the world to study with her.

>If she has codified many streams of instruction
>into a "system" that works, I think she is entitled to earn money from
>marketing this system

of course she is!
We're in agreement on all these points man ...

>the most relaxed feeling in their body when playing. Just look at
>it as Tai
>Chi for the guitar (or any other instrument)

Yep, similar to Werner's book Effortless Mastery, and probably
dozens of others.

>A teacher once told me, "The faster you want to play, the slower
>you have to
>practice"

Yep, or to put it another way, speed is a by-product of efficiency
and accuracy.

Chris

[Bob Hansmann]

Angelo, Chris, et al,

> Chris, with all respect, I don't see a necessary correlation between a
> great

> player and a great teacher.... &c., &c.

This is apparently the guitarist who allegedly made the statement that
standard notation reading is unnecessary, which sparked a heated
debate.perhaps she meant that to study her methods, reading was not
necessary, I don't know, but other than that, I don't remember a lot of
criticism over a "finger drop", or anything else which was specifically
in her system.

Either way, though, I don't care. Her post was an insult to everyone on
the list, and for that matter, just about any teacher who ever lived:
>

> Peopel travel to me from around the world because I give them what
> they cannot find anywhere else - the reasons why they are stuck at the
> level they are at, and how to go beyond it. They have had years of
> lessons from idiotic teachers who don't know what they are doing and
> have taken their money, and not given them playing ability. Many of
> these useless teachers had the same attitudes and ignorant viewpoints
> I read by the naysayers here. You only know how to teach the way you
> were taught, and you could never match my teaching record, or the
> accolades you will read about my methods on my website,

I know I can be hard (as Dave says, I do draw a hard line in the sand),

but I'm not arrogant. that whole post was arrogant. Chris, you can
"stroke her ego" all you want. If she wants my respect, she'll just have

to earn it like anyone else. I don't suck up to women just because
they're women.

Anyway, to be fair, and for Chris, here is a link to a YouTube clip of
her playing "Caprichio Arabe". I have my own opinions, but you can judge
for yourselves:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A-5gC-UCiY&feature=related

For those who like her, she just got free advertising.

best,
Bobby

[Jay Mitchell]

Bob Hansmann wrote:

> here is a link to a YouTube clip of
> her playing "Caprichio Arabe". I have my own opinions, but you can judge
> for yourselves:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A-5gC-UCiY&feature=related

I don't play classical, nor will I presume to critique anyone's playing of
that instrument.

For those more familiar with the amplified instrument, here are two
additional clips:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mf9noz314w4&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_yDAgL8Kt8&feature=channel

As with Bobby, there's no charge for the ad. ;)

Jay

[Scott R Dercks]

I'm sorry but...
Apparently the word "virtuoso" has a very broad definition. Jamie
Andreas is not a virtuoso by MY definition. If her methods produce
virtuosos, they didn't work for her. Her harsh rhetoric would be more
appropriate, coming from a better player.
Sorry Jamie, you can't pop in (I haven't seen a post from you in the
years I've been on the list) and expect to not be critiqued after that.
("low level hackers with lots of

opinions and very little knowledge, or real world experience in teaching

guitar" ?!!)
I'll take Dave Woods, thank you....
Peace,
Scott Dercks
PS THANK YOU Dave and the others that give so freely and lovingly to this
list. IF Jamie spent more time here she would know better than to lob
bombs in here. There are LOTS of good/great players and teachers on this
list.

> Well, I want to thank you all for the attention you are paying to my
> site and teaching methods. I see a number of intelligent comments
> here, as well as a number of completely ignorant statements which,
> unfortunately, are dangerous to the progress of the many students
> out there who have been stuck playing at the same level for years.
>

> Actually, I don't want to try to convince you here with what I

> write, I simply want to express my feelings and point of view as you
> all have done. The "Foundation Exercises" in my primary method book
> "The Principles Of Correct Practice For Guitar" have enabled tens of
> thousands of students worldwide to succeed at guitar when everything
> else failed. Many became teacher after that, because my methods work
> for everyone, as opposed to the hit or miss methods that so many
> teachers use.
>

> People travel to me from around the world because I give them what

> they cannot find anywhere else - the reasons why they are stuck at
> the level they are at, and how to go beyond it. They have had years
> of lessons from idiotic teachers who don't know what they are doing
> and have taken their money, and not given them playing ability. Many
> of these useless teachers had the same attitudes and ignorant
> viewpoints I read by the naysayers here. You only know how to teach
> the way you were taught, and you could never match my teaching
> record, or the accolades you will read about my methods on my
> website,
>

> I dare you to visit my site and check out the actual facts of my
> methods. I dare you to go into my forum and see the reality of what
> my methods do for people. I would like to hear you tell all the
> people who have become real players after years of struggle that it

> is an illusion. If you care so much to have your intense, although

> ignorant opinions, you should care enough to actually base them on
> something other than your own close mindedeness and self serving ego
> crap.
>

> Any real virtuoso knows the truth of what I teach, which is why my
> methods are used in many universities, and endorsed by so many
> teachers. My methods are for serious students who want serious
> progress in abilities, not for low level hackers with lots of
> opinions and very little knowledge, or real world experience in
> teaching guitar. My methods are for people who want to understand
> the real mechanics of aquiring virtuoso technique on guitar,
> regardless of style.
>
> Very sincerely,
>
> Jamie Andreas
> Author of "The Principles Of Correct Practice For Guitar"

____________________________________________________________
Save On Health Insurance
Compare health insurance companies and save money today.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/c?cp=XU53GK8GGJG3ymzolZVXWAAAJ1Byb0OVhT1wTcFEB10seXpzAAQAAAAFAAAAABK2yj0AAANSAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAkQRwAAAAA=

[guit...@comcast.net]

Man, put on a black hat and suit and she could almost be Esteban! Needs a guitar to sell that was better than a Ramirez 1A for less than $200!
BTW, was that a Takamine Martin clone she was playing in the video on her home lesson page?
Brad

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Jeff Shirkey]

>
> I don't play classical, nor will I presume to critique anyone's
> playing of
> that instrument.

I have no such qualms. Tempo is rushed. The fast runs are sloppy and
inarticulate. In short, poor technique--quite the irony.

>
> For those more familiar with the amplified instrument, here are two
> additional clips:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mf9noz314w4&feature=channel
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_yDAgL8Kt8&feature=channel

Yikes! lol

Jeff

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Chris Smart]

Interesting youtube clip. Actually, that got me checking out
several renditions of the same piece. It's neat hearing how
different players interpret it.

When I was studying piano as a kid, I never really made the jump to
interpretation. It was read the page, and then practice it until
you never wanted to hear it again. *laughs* I think i missed out there.

Chris

[akmbirch]

--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "guitargirl32" <guitargirl32@...> wrote:
>
> I dare you to visit my site and check out the actual facts of my methods. I dare you to go into my forum and see the reality of what my methods do for people. I would like to hear you tell all the people who have become real players after years of struggle that it is an illusion. If you care so much to have your intense, although ignorant opinions, you should care enough to actually base them on something other than your own close mindedeness and self serving ego crap.
>
> Any real virtuoso knows the truth of what I teach, which is why my methods are used in many universities, and endorsed by so many teachers. My methods are for serious students who want serious progress in abilities, not for low level hackers with lots of opinions and very little knowledge, or real world experience in teaching guitar. My methods are for people who want to understand the real mechanics of aquiring virtuoso technique on guitar, regardless of style.
>

Hmm, where to begin...

This group is large and has been going for more years than virtually any other guitar site on the web. It's members range from beginners to veterans of guitar, from beginners to old time professionals. Unlike many other sites there really are many well experienced players in the group, musicians who have been playing and teaching professionally for their whole life 20, 30, 40, 50 years. Many who make their living making music.

To characterize all of them as "low level hackers with lots of opinions and very little knowledge, or real world experience in teaching guitar" doesn't pass the reality test. They maybe opinionated, but many here have a lot of knowledge, vast experience and many have been teaching for years. There are big variety of opinions here, which is good, and we all don't agree on everything.

I did take a look over your site and commend you on your marketing and promotion, you do an excellent job. You have packaged up a product well and promoted it very well. And speaking as someone who has not been good at this in the past, that is something I can learn from....

Regarding the content, from what I see, I use some of the techniques you describe with my own students as each case arises. These were taught to me by my own teachers many years ago, and were part of good pedagogical teaching practice, some of the techniques are brought together in these two books:

Lee F. Ryan's "The Natural Classical Guitar: The Principles of Effortless Playing" which was published back in 1984. Google books has a preview:

http://tinyurl.com/yznhakj

Dr. L.R.Guercia and Anthony Crescione's "Fingernastics: A Therapeutic Exercise Book for Hands". Google books has a preview:

http://tinyurl.com/yc6zcgb

Both of these books were at one time standard literature in most conservatory classical guitar programs, and many of the experienced teachers on this site, know of these books and methods.

While I think technique is important I do think that the real fundamentals for a good musician is the development of the ear. IMO, technique while important is subservient to ear development. All the good technique in the world will not make anyone a great musician. Technique is often emphasized because it is easier to teach and it can be seen. It is visual, it's easy to see the fingers go up and down! The ear for most people takes time to develop, and is not visible and in our visually orientated world of instant results and gratification becomes de-emphasized and subservient to technique and exercises. IMO, "understand(ing) the real mechanics of acquiring virtuoso technique on guitar, regardless of style" while useful will not turn someone into a musician. Yes, they may be able to mechanically execute well on the instrument, but that doesn't necessarily equate to great music.

--
Alisdair MacRae Birch
Guitarist/Bassist/Educator/Arranger
http://www.alisdair.com

[JVeg...@aol.com]

Stuff like this interchange cracks me up, because it outlines
just how much insecurity and (as we Cubans say) "caca de
toro" permeates music and music education.

If Ms. Andreas is/was as truly as successful (and I'm not implying
she's not) as she says, she wouldn't react with such arrogance
and condescension to what people here say, I don't think. I've
listened to some of the clips, and I'd say that she appears to be
a pretty competent player/teacher who is maybe overreaching a
bit, but that's just my opinion. Thanks to whomever posted a
comparison to "Esteban", that thought crossed my mind, but I
didn't want to go there.

The opposite of people/attitudes/reactions like this are players I've
known and studied with, like Jimmy Wyble and the late Ted Greene.
These cats were filled with love for the music, chops to burn, and a
deep-seated awe and respect for their art and craft. They'd tell you
if you were "wrong" or needed help, but it was always in the context
of the music, and helping the student, sometimes despite himself,
and I speak personally here. You couldn't help but become a better
musician, and perhaps even a better person, from hanging around
these folks. I don't get that vibe from Ms. Andreas...

Things certainly have livened up here lately, though, so that's cool!

Cheers,
JV

Juan Vega

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Scott R Dercks]

PPS I am NOT a virtuoso by my definition. I am a good player that makes
his living playing guitar in multiple styles with conviction and
professionalism.
Scott Dercks

On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 19:50:32 -0600 Scott R Dercks <near...@juno.com>
writes:

>
> I'm sorry but...
> Apparently the word "virtuoso" has a very broad definition. Jamie
> Andreas is not a virtuoso by MY definition. If her methods produce
> virtuosos, they didn't work for her. Her harsh rhetoric would be
> more
> appropriate, coming from a better player.
> Sorry Jamie, you can't pop in (I haven't seen a post from you in
> the
> years I've been on the list) and expect to not be critiqued after
> that.

> ("low level hackers with lots of

> opinions and very little knowledge, or real world experience in
> teaching

> guitar" ?!!)
> I'll take Dave Woods, thank you....
> Peace,
> Scott Dercks
> PS THANK YOU Dave and the others that give so freely and lovingly to
> this
> list. IF Jamie spent more time here she would know better than to
> lob
> bombs in here. There are LOTS of good/great players and teachers on
> this
> list.

____________________________________________________________
Doctorate Degrees Online
Boost your career with an online doctoral degree. Enroll today!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/c?cp=1fBA5LZ2puTzDeX0ya-lUwAAJ1Byb0OVhT1wTcFEB10seXpzAAQAAAAFAAAAACLo1D4AAAMlAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAyOQAAAAA=

[Chris Smart]

At 10:10 PM 11/16/2009, you wrote:

>Actually, yes it was. Here is his post:
*snip*
Was that posted to the list or to you privately Bobby?

Thanks man,

Chris

[Bob Hansmann]

Jay,

> As with Bobby, there's no charge for the ad. ;)

Dang, I ruined it for BOTH of us!

best,
Bobby

[Scott R Dercks]

OK, This is more like it. And I agree that Al, Pepe and John are
virtuosos. If they are students of yours, you have a right to be proud!
Playing with minimum tension and pressure is a Great idea! Look at
Bireli, he almost always seems relaxed to the point of boredom....
Scott

____________________________________________________________
Doctorate Degrees Online
Boost your career with an online doctoral degree. Enroll today!

http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/c?cp=FuSUlL5r2uOmlnJxIY8hqQAAJ1Byb0OVhT1wTcFEB10seXpzAAQAAAAFAAAAACLo1D4AAAMlAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAyOQAAAAA=

[Jeff Shirkey]

>
> Things certainly have livened up here lately, though, so that's cool!

Let me liven things up a bit more then. :)

I sent the first YouTube link to my best friend, who is a professor of
music theory/history, as well as a professionally trained, performing
concert (a.k.a "classical") guitarist. Here's his review of her
performance without any additional input from me:

> Never heard of her before. Given that I'm pretty in tune with the
> guitar world, I can see why. Her tone isn't up to the standard of
> professional classical guitarists. Hers is too thin (tinny), which
> comes from a couple different problems.
>
> The piece is a famous one. I have a student playing it now, in fact.
> The scales that are jazzing people up in the comments section are
> indeed fast, but, again, played without the clarity and tone that
> would be expected. She uses thumb and index finger to facilitate her
> scales on the bass strings, and this produces a very different type
> of sound. She's obviously going for speed (shredding), without
> concern for clarity or tone.
>
> The slower parts are actually pretty nice, but, again, I could cite
> a half dozen recordings of the top of my head that are better...[Edit]
>
> Anyway, the scales are fast, but it wouldn't impress classical
> guitarists b/c of the sound. Plenty of people can get that speed AND
> have clarity/good tone. Don't buy her CD--I could think of half a
> dozen recordings that would be worth getting. Hundreds of players
> out there can play that better.

Jeff

[Bob Hansmann]

> OK, This is more like it. And I agree that Al, Pepe and John are
> virtuosos. If they are students of yours, you have a right to be proud!

Good one, Scott! :-)

best,
Bobby

[Chris Smart]

At 08:52 PM 11/16/2009, you wrote:
>Man, put on a black hat and suit and she could almost be Esteban!

Darn, you mentioned him before I could!

Although, I'm sure Estevan is living very comfortably thanks. :)
Who knows; he might be a great player as well.

One of these folks who actually got some of my cash once upon a
time is Robert Lee Molton. I'll honestly send my copy of his
Secrets of Speed Picking DVD to someone, free. It's that or I just
toss it, and I hate throwing anything away.

I actually really like his tone; I just didn't learn a lot from the
video.

Chris

[Chris Smart]

At 10:26 PM 11/16/2009, you wrote:
>Chris,
>

>Oh, crap.
>
>It was to me privately. I didn't see that. Mucho apologies, my friend.
That's ok, I'm sure I've done that a few times in the past as well.
:)

[Bob Hansmann]

Chris,

Oh, crap.

It was to me privately. I didn't see that. Mucho apologies, my friend.

[Bob Hansmann]

Angelo,
Firstly,:

> Chris, you can
> > "stroke her ego" all you want.
>
> That wasn't Chris.. Nobody is stroking her ego.

Actually, yes it was. Here is his post:

> Seriously though, I tried to control myself in responding to her post.
> There is only a tiny bit of sarcasm in there, the "true genius" part.
> I figure if we stroke her ego a bit she might actually discuss a thing
> or two with us, instead of showing us her huge ego and then storming
> off in a huff.

As for the rest of your post, I respect it, and agree with parts of it
while disagreeing with others. The flack she took over this issue had
to do with what appeared to be her obvious attempt to hawk her method. I
was the one who made a joke about "finger dropping", or whatever it was
called - not as a put down, but as a play on words.

That her work appeals to you is great. I said a long time ago that I
haven't seen it, and that is still the case.

I am a more than a little inclined to ask why the hell a classic guitar
method is being promoted on a jazz guitar site. I belong to 2 classic
guitar lists, and have seen nothing from her there. I wanted not to
critique the YouTube clip, and still will refrain from doing so. But if
I can use her interpretation of that piece as an example of her sense of
expressiveness, then I'm probably correct in assuming that improv
(assuming that jazz guitarists on those list consider improv
important...) is way beyond her grasp.

That said, I agree with you that she should receive monies for her
efforts from those who think they can be of benefit to. I wish her all
the best, both in her growth and her career. But if she thinks arrogance
is going to score her any points with me, she is sadly mistaken. The
"I'm the only one who knows how to do it right" schtick has been tried
here before - it didn't work then, and it won't work now. The
"naysayers"and "idiotic teachers", as she calls us, on this list are a
little more sophisticated than she gives credit for.

best,
Bobby

[JVeg...@aol.com]

"I have my own opinions, but you can judge
for yourselves:

_http://www.youtube.http://wwwhttp://wwhttp&feature=feature_
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A-5gC-UCiY&feature=related)

Sometimes it can be interesting to compare/contrast versions
of the same song by different players. Listen to both:

_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K474y2EpHN4&feature=fvw_
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K474y2EpHN4&feature=fvw)

Cheers,
JV

Juan Vega





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Bob Hansmann]

Jeff!,
Well, how are you???

>
> Let me liven things up a bit more then. :)

So, what does he really think? I'm surprised that he didn't comment on
her interpretation, but, then again, I've known many over the years that
won't get past poor technique - old school, and I like it.

Perhaps she should try to post that sort of promo and language at
Rec.Mus.Classical.Guitar:
( link: rec.music.cla...@googlegroups.com ), where they take
no prisoners. They'll break her legs over there. Then maybe she'll
better appreciate how very nice we really were to her.

good hearing from you,
Bobby

[funkifized34]

--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, Angelo <angelo.nyc@...> wrote:

>
> On 11/16/09, Bob Hansmann <bobbybmusic@...> wrote:
> >
> > Angelo, Chris, et al,
> >
> >
> > > Chris, with all respect, I don't see a necessary correlation between a
> > > great
> >
> > > player and a great teacher.... &c., &c.
> >
> > This is apparently the guitarist who allegedly made the statement that
> > standard notation reading is unnecessary, which sparked a heated
> > debate.perhaps she meant that to study her methods, reading was not
> > necessary, I don't know, but other than that, I don't remember a lot of
> > criticism over a "finger drop", or anything else which was specifically
> > in her system.
>
>
> First, nowhere in her article did she put down reading. To the contrary, she
> made a strong case for it and not with the dogmatic reasons given by many
> here... Maybe a fair (any) reading of the article might help clear this up.
> http://www.guitarprinciples.com/GettingBetter/why_read_music.html

(snip)

Actually, she does quite a bit of putting down reading, or more importantly, the people who she feels shouldn't be bothered learning to read. Read from your own quoted link:

"Who Shouldn't (Necessarily) Learn to Read Music

Anyone who really doesn't want to.

Anyone who is planning on being only a blues/rock musician or a folk musician.

Most people who are just starting to learn to play the guitar."

These are some of the most ignorant things I've ever seen posted about teaching guitar. "Planning on being only a blues/rock musician"? How condescending and elitist!

> Secondly, there was a long "tee-hee", jr high school level thread about
> equating the finger-drop exercise with Kum by ya... don't see how you
> missed it. It seemed to go on forever..

Sorry your attention span is so short. Apparently it was too long for you to actually exercise some reading comprehension, as you missed the part that cited the "finger drop" exercise as "The Secret Of Speed". As if this isn't going to take multiple hours of practicing and focusing on technique, just a "finger drop" exercise. Of *course* one has to learn to optimize finger movement and relaxation of the muscles is necessary, but this *one* technique is far from "The Secret Of Speed". The "secret" is quite obviously those multiple hours of work. My example of Pat Martino shows that the "finger drop" method is fairly unnecessary. The "one right way" is a myth.

>
> She might have toned it down a bit, but I think she was justified in
> responding to some of the immature "critiques" of her methods. And as far as
> there being idiotic teachers around, I would say that's a given..

While that may be true about idiotic teachers, I've never run into a serious teacher, many of whom have far better technique and experience/training, who would *ever* consider teaching guitar without teaching how to read notation. Her statements about it taking 6 months to teach a 10-year-old the concept of a dotted note. Interestingly, I've never had a problem teaching this concept to any of my students, including a 6-year-old. For someone with who's taught "thousands" of students, she can't explain a dotted note?

Are the critiques "immature" because they disagree with her?

[Bob Hansmann]

Nice post, "funkifized",
I have to admit, I still haven't, and have no into to, gone to her site.
you apparently have done so, and I don't blame you at all for calling
her on her sxxt. Thank you for that post.

But could you do us the favor of signing your posts with at least your
first name?

thanks,
Bobby

[Dave Woods]

There are other inner factors regarding playing speed and relaxation. The
first is inner focus. Within, you focus like the lens of a camera. In
doing this, you can sense all the tensions, or lack there of, in your body.
These tensions are usually caused by anxiety in some form, and they weaken
your focus.



Within, sense your breathing, sense the air moving in and out of your lungs.
This will refocus your inner perspective, and you can release the feelings
that are creating the tension in your body, be they physical or emotional.
You will find that you will hear in greater perspective the phrase you are
truly hearing in the moment.

What you are hearing, and the motivation behind it, is what tells your
fingers what to do. This is what tells them "get your butts in there and
move!"

OK, suppose your fingers tell you, "sorry man, we're not making' it", after
they've stumbled all over the fretboard. ,_



If this is the case, because your inner focus on the idea and its intent are
still intact, you can hold on to the idea, and its place in the chorus of
the tune you're working on, and practice it. Isolate it, slow it down, keep
it in perspective, get it together, and gradually speed it up, always
keeping your focus intact._

Just practicing scales and arpeggios as fast as possible while your inner
focus is out to lunch, while you watch TV, ain't gonna' get it.



Dave Woods

_

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Angelo]

Dave,
I don't see a big difference between what you're saying and what she is
saying. She stresses paying attention to the details of body movements and
inner sensations as being a necessary part of practicing. Isn't that sort of
what you're saying below?
I used to hang out with Tristano's bass player and I took a couple of
lessons with him. One of the first things he did was to have me modify my
metronome so that it could play waayyy slower than the default position.
Then, I was to do exercises and songs (vocally) at this excruciatingly slow
tempo. You learn a lot about your time and how it feels in your body...
It's an even more pronounced effect when playing a horn where you are the
source of the continuing vibration, as opposed to relying on a sustain
pedal.. :-)

[Angelo]

A lovely review but I don't remember anything in her letter where she was
trying to sell her CD's. I thought she was defending her TEACHING method..
Maybe it's just my poor reading comprehension. :-)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Jeff Shirkey]

>
>
> These are some of the most ignorant things I've ever seen posted about
>> teaching guitar. "Planning on being only a blues/rock musician"? How
>> condescending and elitist!
>

> I concur...

I'll actually defend her for a second. ;) It's quite possible that she
meant "only" in the sense of "solely" and not "merely" (which would
indeed be insulting).

The thing that I am most put off by is her attack that was so
dismissive of all of the truly great, generous players/teachers who
are on this list. Some of them have already been mentioned, but I'll
add Petri to the list. All of these guys (and gals) share their time,
wisdom, and experience generously--and graciously.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but is it really news (much
less a "secret"!) that, in order to play any instrument, including
guitar, efficiently and to the best of one's ability, you need to
relax and learn to work all of the tension out of your body? I mean,
come on. lol

Jeff

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Jeff Shirkey]

On Nov 17, 2009, at 11:08 AM, Angelo wrote:

> A lovely review but I don't remember anything in her letter where
> she was
> trying to sell her CD's.

My friend assumed I was sending him the link to the video because I
was interested in her music. I didn't tell him anything about her
teaching method.

> I thought she was defending her TEACHING method..

I think the level of her playing in that piece is an indictment of her
method--or at least her ability to execute it. I mean, if you can't
even practice what you preach??

The blues stuff she did was just awful. No way around it. It's clear
she's not an electric player and has no ability in that regard.

Jeff


------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

[Angelo]

> > > This is apparently the guitarist who allegedly made the statement that
> > > standard notation reading is unnecessary, which sparked a heated
> > > debate.perhaps she meant that to study her methods, reading was not
> > > necessary, I don't know, but other than that, I don't remember a lot of
> > > criticism over a "finger drop", or anything else which was specifically
> > > in her system.
> >
> >
> > First, nowhere in her article did she put down reading. To the contrary,
> she
> > made a strong case for it and not with the dogmatic reasons given by many
> > here... Maybe a fair (any) reading of the article might help clear this
> up.
> > http://www.guitarprinciples.com/GettingBetter/why_read_music.html
> (snip)
>
> Actually, she does quite a bit of putting down reading, or more
> importantly, the people who she feels shouldn't be bothered learning to
> read. Read from your own quoted link:
>
> "Who Shouldn't (Necessarily) Learn to Read Music
>
> Anyone who really doesn't want to.
>
> Anyone who is planning on being only a blues/rock musician or a folk
> musician.
>
> Most people who are just starting to learn to play the guitar."

Did you notice the word "(Necessarily)"? In my reading comprehension courses
we are taught to watch for "modifiers" such as these. They can shift the
meaning of a sentence as much as 180 degrees...
You also neglected to to quote the rest of the article where she does go
into why these people should learn to read... I won't quote it, because I
already gave the link and if someone is interested they can go there and
judge for themselves... Though some may choose to call her site "sxxt",
while admitting not ever looking at the site..

These are some of the most ignorant things I've ever seen posted about
> teaching guitar. "Planning on being only a blues/rock musician"? How
> condescending and elitist!

I concur...

> Secondly, there was a long "tee-hee", jr high school level thread about
> > equating the finger-drop exercise with Kum by ya... don't see how you
> > missed it. It seemed to go on forever..
>
> Sorry your attention span is so short. Apparently it was too long for you
> to actually exercise some reading comprehension, as you missed the part that
> cited the "finger drop" exercise as "The Secret Of Speed". As if this isn't
> going to take multiple hours of practicing and focusing on technique, just a
> "finger drop" exercise. Of *course* one has to learn to optimize finger
> movement and relaxation of the muscles is necessary, but this *one*
> technique is far from "The Secret Of Speed". The "secret" is quite obviously
> those multiple hours of work. My example of Pat Martino shows that the
> "finger drop" method is fairly unnecessary. The "one right way" is a myth.

It's amazing to me how you can distill pages of writing into one very
succinct, albeit, totally misread thought. As to Pat Martino's method of
practicing, I guess we'll just have to wait until he weighs in here,
although you seem to be putting forth that perceived method as "the one".

>
> > She might have toned it down a bit, but I think she was justified in
> > responding to some of the immature "critiques" of her methods. And as far
> as
> > there being idiotic teachers around, I would say that's a given..
>
> While that may be true about idiotic teachers, I've never run into a
> serious teacher, many of whom have far better technique and
> experience/training, who would *ever* consider teaching guitar without
> teaching how to read notation. Her statements about it taking 6 months to
> teach a 10-year-old the concept of a dotted note. Interestingly, I've never
> had a problem teaching this concept to any of my students, including a
> 6-year-old. For someone with who's taught "thousands" of students, she can't
> explain a dotted note?

There are very well-respected methods (I've mentioned a couple in a previous
post) wherein a child is not taught reading until well into (sometimes
years) the study of the instrument.

Are the critiques "immature" because they disagree with her?

No, but to devolve from a discussion of a technique to multiple messages on
"How many ways can we say "BJ" without actually saying it (tee-hee)" is
immature.. IMHO, of course
Ta..
Angelo

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Scott R Dercks]

Angelo, The difference is also in how they are saying it. Dave is
offering it lovingly and for free. Jamie came her with a bad attitude and
wants to charge me for it. Dave isn't bragging or promoting, but he has
the YEARS of experience that would allow him to, if he so chooses.
So the big difference is in the way it is presented. I recall a similar
situation with Jack Zucker (who is a great player) when he showed up
mainly to sell his work and was abusive.
If Jamie wants to come back and apologize to the group for her tirade, I
for one am happy to accept it and welcome her. (we all have bad days, and
who wants their work given a poor review?) If she comes here with a
generous and positive spirit I would look forward to hearing her ideas.
Either way, I am done critiquing her.
And frankly I wish Jack would stop back now and then and contribute. He
did have some interesting things to say...
Peace,
Scott Dercks

On Tue, 17 Nov 2009 12:03:54 -0500 Angelo <angel...@gmail.com> writes:
> Dave,
> I don't see a big difference between what you're saying and what she
> is
> saying. She stresses paying attention to the details of body
> movements and
> inner sensations as being a necessary part of practicing. Isn't that
> sort of
> what you're saying below?

____________________________________________________________
Doctorate Degrees Online
Boost your career with an online doctoral degree. Enroll today!

http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/c?cp=i3PJ9Sy9EELXxB3TqjYDwgAAJ1Byb0OVhT1wTcFEB10seXpzAAQAAAAFAAAAAAtb2j4AAAMlAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAyOQAAAAA=

[Ron Becker]

No question it's a better performance. And you can see the lightness
in his touch everywhere. When he placed his fist finger for the
first non harmonic note in the close up, it was as tho he'd been
reading her stuff. But he put the idea to better use. If her point
was that to employ `her' techniques, [ nothing about the idea of
relaxation imroving facility on the neck is new ] reading music
wasn't necessary I can't find a reasonable objection. I didn't see
the post about that. One has little to do with the other. In
classical guitar study or any other guitar pursuit both are important
at a very fundamental level. All the literature/media that I have on
CG study stresses lightness in both hands. My lack of attention to
tension in my left hand forced me to quit after two years. My left
thumb still isn't fully recovered from squeezing too hard.

Ron
Living and playing outside the box.

http://www.myspace.com/ron45becker

On Nov 16, 2009, at 5:30 PM, g_u_i_t_a_r wrote:

> Am 17.11.2009 00:13, schrieb Bob Hansmann:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A-5gC-UCiY&feature=related
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A-5gC-UCiY&feature=related>
>
> sorry, but with this "interpretation" she would never has the
> possibility to study at an conservatory or university or win a
> price on
> a local competition.
> a better one:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQVzsYLYKus
>
> best regards
> JoCa

>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Dave Woods]

Angelo,



I must confess that I never read anything about her "method". I caught the
attitude from her posts, and dropped it right there. If some of her
experience in playing fits with mine, great!, the more revelation to
aspiring players the better.



Dave Woods







_____

From: jazz_...@yahoogroups.com [mailto:jazz_...@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Angelo
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 12:04 PM
To: jazz_...@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [jazz_guitar] Re: Playing Speed and relaxation





Dave,
I don't see a big difference between what you're saying and what she is
saying. She stresses paying attention to the details of body movements and
inner sensations as being a necessary part of practicing. Isn't that sort of
what you're saying below?
I used to hang out with Tristano's bass player and I took a couple of
lessons with him. One of the first things he did was to have me modify my
metronome so that it could play waayyy slower than the default position.
Then, I was to do exercises and songs (vocally) at this excruciatingly slow
tempo. You learn a lot about your time and how it feels in your body...
It's an even more pronounced effect when playing a horn where you are the
source of the continuing vibration, as opposed to relying on a sustain
pedal.. :-)

On 11/17/09, Dave Woods <david_woods@ <mailto:david_woods%40verizon.net>

[Bob Hansmann]

Angelo,

> Though some may choose to call her site "sxxt",
> while admitting not ever looking at the site..

Yes, I admit to not having checked out her site, but I never called her
site "sxxt", I called her promo and attitude "sxxt". If you're going to
quote me, get it right - get your sxxt together.

:-)
Bobby