[jazz_guitar] Scale length, what's that?
Dave Woods
busted up from accidents. I can't get to some things I used to be able to
get to. I have large hands. Certain chords like a min.7b5 with the root on
the 6th string is hard higher up the neck where the frets are closer
together. Big hands = longer scale 25&1/2 works for me. However, when I
was younger, I played ES-175's with 24&1/2'' scale, and never paid any
attention to it.
I bought a Peerless Jazz City from Doc when they first became available,
25&1/2'' 1&11/16'' nut. When I first got it, I thought the neck was too
narrow for me. I called Doc and wanted to return it. I ended up keeping
it. Now it's my favorite jazz electric guitar. Doc will probably be glad
if I never call him back up again.
what you want in a jazz electric is a perfectly balanced woody acoustic tone
in miniature. Amplified that gives a perfect louder "woody" jazz guitar
tone. My Jazz City has this, and a nice sustain too. The Jazz City also
has a sound post under the bridge. This banks down the feedback. I played
it next to a drummer at a good volume with no feedback. The amp was close
to my left, facing the guitar. The early Jazz City's had super slim necks.
I can get around on this guitar, so I'll never sell it.
Nut width is also very important. I have a 1939 Epiphone Triumph 25&1/2''
scale and a 1&3/4'' nut. A wider fretboard also makes things harder to get
to. I love the old thing, it was a in pieces "basket case" when I found it.
Eddie Diehl restored it for me. It looks like 10 miles of bad road, but the
sound!!................it's harder to play, and some chords are next to
impossible due to the wider 1&3/4'' nut, but the tone and acoustic volume
just captivates me. I'll never sell that either.
Dave Woods
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Tim Fox
I've got a couple of friends, one with huge hands and one with big hands who is hella old as well, who are playing custom guitars with 27+" scales tuned to D. (One tunes standard but a whole step down, the other tunes in fourths, D G C F Bb Eb.) Might be a way to go...
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Jon Lori
Remember that the length of the scale is only one part of the equation.
The number of frets determine the division of the scale and therefore
the spacing between frets.
I have a 1953 ES-175 with a 24 ½ inch scale but it only goes up to B.
I have other later ES-175 models that go up to C and D respectively
on that same scale.
Other guitars may have a two octave neck and go up to E.
If you are adding 3 or 5 frets to an extra inch of scale, you may
actually have smaller inter-fret spacing even if the scale is longer.
__._,_.___
steve
--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Lori" <jonathon.lori@...> wrote:
>
> Remember that the length of the scale is only one part of the equation.
>
> The number of frets determine the division of the scale and therefore
> the spacing between frets.
Jon,
The number of frets has nothing to do with the spacing between frets.
Why would adding more frets at the end of the fingerboard have any effect on where the frets at the headstock end need to be to play in tune?
Steve
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Jon Lori
Let me more carefully engage my brain.
What makes sense in terms of tuning compromise?
I am not certain that for the same scale,
would the last common fret available on the instruments
under comparison be at exactly the same distance?
Via the laws of physics, you would expect certain things
like the 12th fret being half way in between,
hence the note played there is an octave higher.
And then, a two octave neck would have the 24th fret
splitting the distance in half again.
What about the other notes?
Obviously there are differences between fret spacing, or nobody would have
an issue.
So, is it that E and B notes (and maybe others) are in identical places on
the same scale guitar,
but other notes are tempered in their positioning by the luthier?
I just pulled the tape measure and calipers out. I tested two guitars with
the same scale
but a different number of frets. Note that the distance to the 19th fret is
identical,
but the inter-fret spacing is different along the neck at the other frets.
1953 Gibson ES-175
Scale: 24.75 inches
# of frets: 19
Distance nut to 19th fret: 16.5 inches
width between 12th and 13th fret: 16.3 mm
width between nut and first fret: 32.6 mm
2005 Sadowsky Jim Hall
Scale: 24.75 inches
# of frets: 21
Distance nut to 19th fret: 16.5 inches
width between 12th and 13th fret: 16.5 mm
width between nut and first fret: 33.95 mm
Regards
Jon
steve
You can't be measuring correctly. See this link and look
very carefully at the diagram. From the nut to the 1st fret
on a 24.75" scale, you should get about 35.3".
http://buildyourguitar.com/resources/tips/fretdist.htm
Jon Lori
Thanks for the link!
I am using electronic calipers that have both ID and OD knife-edge jaws.
However, the frets may not be exactly identical in size,
and/or they may not be exactly placed. I am using the inside edge.
I would need to try and clamp the frets and get their size and divide by
two.
Or simply try and get the middle of the fret by eye.
The article states it is impossible to place a fret with an accuracy
greater than 1/1000th of an inch. A millimeter is 0.0393 inches.
Even fret wear on a tall thin fret could change the string interface
distance more than a 1/1000th.
Guitars tend to play sharp at the first three or so frets, primarily
due to string tension. Some guitars still sound pretty sweet there.
I was never quite sure if it was luck, accident, or intentional on the part
of the builder. That is what got me started down this whole track
in the first place.
The Feiten tuning system for example works by slightly moving
the nut closer to the first fret. Bridge saddles are then adjusted,
or the bridge itself is modified on an acoustic. Then the guitar is
intonated using Feiten's pitch offset formulas.
Lately, I have been looking at some fretless guitars, as well as some
fretless instruments. Godin, for example, has a fretless model.
Traugott makes a fan fret acoustic. You can then customize
individual string lengths, such as using a longer scale length
for a lower pitch. This can also be done for better intonation
with a larger diameter string.
Maybe I will switch to violin.
