[jazz_guitar] Article: Found: the jazz purist sought by Wynton Marsalis
akmbirch
Posted by Giles Tremlett Monday 21 December 2009
http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/blog/2009/dec/21/jazz-purist-found-wynton-marsalis
Jazz websites rattle with fierce debate after Wynton Marsalis offers present to fan who complained at Larry Ochs gig
Well, that didn't take long. If the Guardian's crowdsourcers can spend hours trawling through Tony Blair's complex accounts for the reward of a Steve Bell cartoon, then the offer of a deluge of Wynton Marsalis recordings mentioned in Shortcuts this morning was bound to have an instant impact.
The jazz legend wanted to send a large part of his 70-plus catalogue of recordings to the anonymous Spaniard who called police to a jazz festival because the music being played was not, he insisted, jazz. Marsalis just needed to find him. Now Rafael Gisbert, a jazz purist from the Madrid dormitory town of Alcorcon, has stepped forward.
Credit goes to our friends at El País newspaper, who shared this morning's story with us. "All I wanted was my money back," Gisbert tells me. "I'm honoured that a great jazzman supports me."
Marsalis's people are today being a little coy. "Wynton never planned on it going public," says Jono Gasparro, the star's assistant, who asked the Guardian to help track Gisbert down. "All I know is that he wanted to send him some music."
Perhaps the coyness is because jazz websites are rattling with fierce debate over the time-worn question of "what is jazz". Marsalis has offended a few people, not least the musicians in the Larry Ochs Sax and Drum Core who were playing when Gisbert called the cops.
Scott Amendola, one of Ochs's drummers, accuses Marsalis of seeking cheap publicity. He suggests we write something about all those who disagree with the Marsalis view of jazz and about how the trumpeter hurts "thousands of other 'jazz' musicians in the world".
Marsalis has Gisbert's phone number and email address. It's his move.
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Bob Hansmann
What makes you feel that way?
Angelo
>
> > In my eyes, Wynton doesn't play real jazz...
>
>
> What makes you feel that way?
I've been avidly listening and playing (somewhat) for close to 60 yrs and to
me "real" jazz is spontaneous and fresh and of the time.. I can appreciate
all the masters but if they were alive today, I would be expecting them to
still be pushing the envelope (eg., Sonny Rollins).
Wynton has never pushed any envelope. His music is a rehash of stuff played
before him by much better players... I was at a jam session at Iridium where
there were about 10 of the "new breed" of trumpet players, and everyone of
them played better than he did that night...
I don't see that he has offered anything new to the music and for him to
pontificate against people who have moved jazz along much more than he has
is pure arrogance...
Somehow he got (s)elected the spokesperson.... I never got to vote. :-)
Just my opinion, and you know that and $2.50 will get you a ride on the
subway...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dave Woods
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From: jazz_...@yahoogroups.com [mailto:jazz_...@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Bob Hansmann
Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2009 7:24 PM
To: jazz_...@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [jazz_guitar] Article: Found: the jazz purist sought by Wynton
Marsalis
> In my eyes, Wynton doesn't play real jazz...
What makes you feel that way?
Dave Woods
I've never seen it fail that anybody who "makes it" always get's accused of
"selling out" or is basically getting knocked off the pedestals they're
exulted to. There's a plethora of those who sit around putting them on
pedestals so they can knock them off for what ever reason. So and So is
better than So and So, but he's still not better than this So and So over
there.......for now. Personally, I don't give a fiddler's Fart who's
better than who, or who did what, or didn't do what ever. Listen for what's
good in people. The best you can say about anyone is you wouldn't trade
anything they've got for anything they haven't got, and then go work to get
what you haven't got. trade
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Angelo
>
> Found: the jazz purist sought by Wynton Marsalis
> Posted by Giles Tremlett Monday 21 December 2009
>
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/blog/2009/dec/21/jazz-purist-found-wynton-marsalis
>
I enjoyed the talkbacks... :-)
In my eyes, Wynton doesn't play real jazz...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Angelo
>
> To be serious, though, I love his playing on his early recordings (Think Of
> One, and that duet he did with Bobby McFerrin on The Young Lions), really
> fresh and invigorating. Maybe he peaked too early? ;-}
My response was to the article and its talkbacks. I "hear" Wynton as a
competent jazz player, and that's fine... What bothers me is not his success
and promotion by his label(s) as the safe jazz musician. The thinking seems
to be "he plays classical (read white) music, therefore he must be a better
jazz musician and should be given the mantle of spokesperson. This too is
fine.
What annoys me is that he has taken it upon himself to impose narrow
definitions about what is jazz and what is not. And in so doing he has made
negative statements about people who, IMHO, are much better jazz musicians
than he is.
I'm not questioning his musical abilities. I am questioning his
pontifications, which I don't agree with...
Offering to reward some idiot who called cops in to stop an avant garde
concert he didn't like, saying that this "fan" was upholding the ideal of
true jazz is not something I can easily ignore...
I have not yet reached that state of enlightenment where I can see these
actions as being ok, considering the influence he has on some misguided
fans...
Basta...
keithfre
-Keith
keithfre
-Keith
Ron Becker
jazz. I like some of the guys who do, the two Pats, are listenable
[ a lot of the time ] envelope bullies, and don't like many others
who just seem to explore atonality to the extent that there isn't
ever much release. Jazz is also good players playing over good
changes with other good players who interact and respond to each
other in a musical way. Jimmy Bruno doesn't seem to have much against
envelopes, Jim Hall, Wes, Kenny Burrell, many many more just engage
you with their musical imaginations. Graham Dechter is another nice
example. How about John Pizzarelli, heres a guy who does a very
listenable job of wallowing in 30s and 40s music. Wonderful stuff.
Nary a scronk or schreech or spit valve solo in the entire lot. The
envelope bullies can, sometimes, come off as people who went straight
into scronk with out ever paying any dues in the traditional jazz
world. Especially if they are pretty young. Not always true I know
but what is?
Ron
Living and playing outside the box.
http://www.myspace.com/ron45becker
Angelo
>
> I don't necessarily think one has to beat up envelopes to be playing
> jazz. I like some of the guys who do, the two Pats, are listenable
> [ a lot of the time ] envelope bullies, and don't like many others
> who just seem to explore atonality to the extent that there isn't
> ever much release. Jazz is also good players playing over good
> changes with other good players who interact and respond to each
> other in a musical way. Jimmy Bruno doesn't seem to have much against
> envelopes, Jim Hall, Wes, Kenny Burrell, many many more just engage
> you with their musical imaginations. Graham Dechter is another nice
> example. How about John Pizzarelli, heres a guy who does a very
> listenable job of wallowing in 30s and 40s music. Wonderful stuff.
> Nary a scronk or schreech or spit valve solo in the entire lot. The
> envelope bullies can, sometimes, come off as people who went straight
> into scronk with out ever paying any dues in the traditional jazz
> world. Especially if they are pretty young. Not always true I know
> but what is?
>
Ron,
Not everyone has to be an envelope destroyer. This I agree with, and I love
to listen to all these people you mention.
However, I occasionally like to hear stuff that makes me wonder, "wtf was
that?
The first time I saw Ornette live at the Five Spot (1959-60), my system was
so shocked by that music that I couldn't get to sleep for 2 days.. I
definitely considered that jazz..
Others may not like it and that's fine, but don't tell me that wasn't
jazz...
I go way back and I've listened to all types of music and jazz in
particular. I listen to, and fully enjoy the warm crystal sound of Lester
Young, and the next minute I'll also enjoy the screeches of Albert Ayler or
the saxophone mouthpiece ensemble of John Zorn... To me, if it's improvised
and played from the heart, it's jazz..no matter what King Wynton says...
Ciao...
JamesM
--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, Angelo <angelo.nyc@...> wrote:
Offering to reward some idiot who called cops in to stop an avant garde concert he didn't like, saying that this "fan" was upholding the ideal of true jazz is not something I can easily ignore...
Angelo,
Excuse me, is this for real?
jim mings
Angelo
>
>
>
> --- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, Angelo <angelo.nyc@...> wrote:
> Offering to reward some idiot who called cops in to stop an avant garde
> concert he didn't like, saying that this "fan" was upholding the ideal of
> true jazz is not something I can easily ignore...
>
> Angelo,
> Excuse me, is this for real?
> jim mings
Jim,
It was in an article that Alisdair posted.. I was just responding to that
article. I didn't realize that not that many people read it.
Btw, the talkbacks to it are fun... :-)
Here's the link to the article:
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Ron Becker
your inclusiveness. I mis read the post I responded to as being a
little on the exclusive side. My mistake. I wasn't aware of the
statements you mention, I might have the same issues you are had I
seen or heard them. Long my you enjoy your wide ranging taste in jazz.
Ron
Living and playing outside the box.
http://www.myspace.com/ron45becker
stevesachse
> > changes with other good players who interact and respond to each
> > other in a musical way.
Totally, that's called music. Well said.
> > The envelope bullies can, sometimes, come off as people who went
> > straight into scronk with out ever paying any dues in the
> > traditional jazz world.
This idea (and I don't want to get into an argument, it's not directed specifically at you) I have a real problem with. (Well, actually, scronk? Lol, really? Some people say the same thing about Real Book tunes.) Anyway, I wish people would just get over it and stop trying to call everything jazz. Some of the newer stuff is in the jazz category on your favorite mp3 providers' lists, but it's not necessarily jazz. Most of it is music that was written by composers who are most intrigued by harmony, or even lack thereof. A lot of times they are also into improvisation. The music isn't any less communicative between the players a lot of times, just less communicative to the listener because the music is so chromatic. There's nothing wrong with that, it's not any less musical, however it might be less communicative if they are not expressing themselves in a commonly understood language. But the idea of 'paying dues' by playing All of Me, ATTYA, Satin Doll, Cherokee, etc. - from memory and in style, is just arrogant BS. Real Book stuff doesn't have all that much to do with a lot of modern music, and many times it's ridiculous to try and associate them. You can say that people have to go to the standards to learn the harmonies, etc., but that's not true. They exist as commonly used devices in the modern extended tonal language. I'm sorry but I hate that idea, and truly it's often spoken of invalidly.
Now, some guy who is actually trying to play standardish tunes but conceived in a modern hip way, yeah, maybe then, if they're trying to reference that music they should go and learn about it. But if they are not, there's no reason to make that statement. Again, this is not necessarily directed at you, but it's been shoved down my throat a lot over the years, and it's actually been on my mind lately. Don't take it personal. Just my $.02. Most modern stuff that I hear is more about hip changes and less about swing, more about appealing to the generation of the last 20 years or so, using more recent rhythms, distortions and effects. Sure, a lot of it has complexity to the harmony and meter, but really a lot of it is actually more accessible to the younger generations than Charlie Parker, etc. Even Charlie Hunter has said that although people call his thing 'jazz', he doesn't consider it jazz, despite the similarities in harmony and rhythm.
Before you know it, they'll be calling Indie rock jazz, just because they use a lot of maj7th and 6th chords. Lol, that may be a little extreme. Anyway.
Dave Woods
spontaneous improvisation among a group of musicians that could be performed
within any existing style, or any newly created style.
Improvisation has been a part of music from the very beginning. I
improvise my solos in my New Age Music even though I'm the only improviser
http://www.jazzguitarstartingright.com/I%20Love%20You%20So%20.mp3 I'm no
longer the angry misguided idiot with something to prove that I was in my
youth.
Dave Woods
_____
From: jazz_...@yahoogroups.com [mailto:jazz_...@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of stevesachse
Sent: Thursday, December 24, 2009 4:29 PM
To: jazz_...@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [jazz_guitar] Re: Article: Found: the jazz purist sought by Wynton
Marsalis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------
Ron Becker
Ron
Living and playing outside the box.
http://www.myspace.com/ron45becker
On Dec 24, 2009, at 2:28 PM, stevesachse wrote:
> > > Jazz is also good players playing over good
> > > changes with other good players who interact and respond to each
> > > other in a musical way.
>
> Totally, that's called music. Well said.
>
> > > The envelope bullies can, sometimes, come off as people who went
> > > straight into scronk with out ever paying any dues in the
> > > traditional jazz world.
>
> This idea (and I don't want to get into an argument, it's not
> directed specifically at you) I have a real problem with.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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