Or is it always best to think in terms of major???
Mark
.... Since major and minor both share and have in common some of the same scale degrees which include -3 and -7, I prefer to think in both -- that's Bb with a minor tonality ....
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I know my answer isn't going to help you, but it's best to think in terms of sounds. If a song (like AL) sounds minor, then that's what you want to try to hone in on if you're asking about improvising. If the tonality appears to be major, then that's the "answer", but I think it's more helpful to be able to hear how the notes sound over the chord changes.
AL is interesting, because it tends to go bet'n the major and relative minor, so you don't want to get yourself tied up in harmonic knots that won't help your playing.
BTW, I've always played AL in E minor; 1st chord is an Am (ii in G), and then it pretty quickly flips over to Em with the F#m7b5/B7b9/Em progression, etc.
Cheers, JV
Juan Vega
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The first recording by Yves Montand was done in Ebm! But you can't sell sheet music in Ebm (6 flats) to the general public, so publish in Em. The only vocal recording I know in Em is by Johnny Mathis.
Male voices - Frank/Nat generally do it in Dm, Female voices in Cm or in Edith Piaf's case Bbm.
Most Instrumentalists prefer Gm. Miles liked Gm, Chet Baker liked Fm.
The old real book had it is Em even though the source is supposedly Bill Evans "Portrait in Jazz" version which is in Gm.
Em is a guitar-friendly key, its in the real book, so no need to transpose!
On Autumn Leaves melody ...
It's minor melody so if you are using numbers to memorize the first few tones, then as you put it "think in G minor" 1, 2, b3, b6. Then it's nice n'easy to remember its starts on the root.
(Some musicians do think only in "Major keys" or more correctly in
terms of numbers of sharps and flats, and so would remember the melody
as starting on the root of the VI chord).
In terms of Solfege, what is interesting is as minor melody this is where the educational solfege insisters of DO-based minor makes themselves go through hoops rather than just using LA-based relative minor and everything becomes much clearer. LA-based minor makes it very clear the transition between the major and the relative minor. All pretty neat!
On the Real Book ...
The Real book (in Em) has the last four measures as |Cmaj7 | F#m7b5 B7 | Em7 | Em7 |
The main melody note over Cmaj7 is A! Please, please do not voice the chord with a zinging B.
Cmaj7 is a substitute chord for F#m7b5! Many pro's play C13.
Sadly too many musicians play the real book changes without using their ears!
Mark:
It seems to me better to think in G Minor??? Or is it always best to think in terms of major???
Mings:
Good age-old question.
There are several ways to think of it. Most of the time it is simplest to think in terms of the key of the last chord of the song. That scale "usually" influences all the chords in the progression.
Autumn Leaves, like Summertime, explores the sound relationship of a Major key and its Relative minor. Great songs; and in a sense these compositions are an answer to your question. Listen closely to them.
As far as guitar playing goes, it is useful to "derive" fingerings from the major scale. See the fab Jimmy Bruno for help on this. He has laid it out plain and simple and can demonstrate eloquently how it works. It is helpful to know the scales by intervalic content, but I find this a lot more to think about until this method is internalized and becomes "thoughtless listening." I find simplicity an honorable goal. KISS. Now maybe one can begin to learn the repertoire. I am sure others have more to say.
Jim
From: jazz_gui...@yahoogroups.com [mailto:jazz_gui...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of JamesM Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 10:00 PM To: jazz_gui...@yahoogroups.com Subject: [jazz_guitar] Re: Minor Melodies
The confusion here is that the classical concept of Key stems from the Major Minor System. C major and A minor are Relative Major and Minor. True, but this is very limited today. C major Ionian, D minor Dorian, F major Lydian, G major Mixolydian, and A minor Aeolian are all "Relative" Majors and Minors to each other. Any Key has six Tonal Centers, and a Tune can migrate through all of them within the same Key. Even though this is the case, C major / A minor is a well established Bench Mark that will never be completely abandoned.
Today, C major can be C major Ionian, C major Lydian and C major Mixolydian mixed together. This is combining chords from the Key of C, the Key of G, and the Key of F against a C Tonal Center.
Today, A minor can be A minor Aeolian, A minor Dorian and A minor Phrygian mixed together. Again, this is combining chords from the Key of C, the Key of G, and the Key of F against an A Tonal Center.
If the progression is going to resolve to a minor chord, I think of it as minor. In your example the last chord is a Gm. The preceding chord in many cases is D7 or maybe D7b13. It seems to me that thinking in Bb major would be confusing. The next to last chord in Bb would often be an F7, which doesn't resolve to Gm as strongly.
As a way to learn Gm it may make sense to start by thinking about the notes in Bbmajor. Part of the work of becoming a jazz player is getting all of those equivalencies in one's mind so that, for example, it won't make any difference whether you think Gm or Bb. You go right to the right notes.
Rick
--- In jazz_gui...@yahoogroups.com, "JamesM" <jmings2003@...> wrote:
> Mark:
> It seems to me better to think in G Minor??? Or is it always best to think in terms of major???
> Mings:
> Good age-old question.
> There are several ways to think of it. Most of the time it is simplest to think in terms of the key of the last chord of the song. That scale "usually" influences all the chords in the progression.
> Autumn Leaves, like Summertime, explores the sound relationship of a Major key and its Relative minor. Great songs; and in a sense these compositions are an answer to your question. Listen closely to them.
> As far as guitar playing goes, it is useful to "derive" fingerings from the major scale. See the fab Jimmy Bruno for help on this. He has laid it out plain and simple and can demonstrate eloquently how it works. It is helpful to know the scales by intervalic content, but I find this a lot more to think about until this method is internalized and becomes "thoughtless listening." I find simplicity an honorable goal. KISS. Now maybe one can begin to learn the repertoire. > I am sure others have more to say.
> Jim
--- In jazz_gui...@yahoogroups.com, "Matthew Chambers" <msc186@...> wrote:
> Have to agree with Juan. It's always in Em, far as I know.
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I second that...to some extent...
I play it in G & Em as it tends to rotate back and forth between these relative keys. These keys typically share the same key signature, only the song has accidentals that fit using the notes from the E harmonic minor scale for the Em portions.
The song technically switches back and forth between G (II, V, I, IV) and EM (II, V, I) in the first section. It then goes between Em (II, V, I) and G (II, V, I) for the bridge. The last section is Em (II, V, I modulating to D) D (V) then C (II,V) and back to Em (II,V,I).
Looking for one and only one key to apply to "Autumn Leaves" is a mistake.
If that strict, key center, sort of approach is what you're trying to use, then remember that the tune flips and flops between both Gmi and Bb Maj. For example, the first progression, C-7 F7 Bb Eb, is in Bb, the next, A-7b5 D7b9 Gmi, is in Gmi.
I'll fluctuate between Em and G ... but not so much in the sense of "thinking Em" or "thinking G" ... but knowing by "hearing" when you'll "need-by-ear" that Eb or Db from the minor key ... it's really a fact of having the whole chromatic scale at our fingertips ... but, yes, Em and G kind of zeroes in it for you ....
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I probably should've been more specific. You're totally right, sometimes when arranging a piece for an instrument other than the original one for which it was written, it might be necessary to transpose.
That said, I don't think you're apt to hear a Mozart piano sonata transposed into another key in order to make it easier to play. Same thing for orchestral works.
I'm not too much into this, but it's my understanding that different keys do indeed sound different, that "sharp" keys tend to sound brighter than "flat" keys, etc. I'd be willing to wager that hearing the same piece played in two different one after another might be telling...
Cheers, JV
Juan Vega
In a message dated 11/7/2009 11:39:00 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
Don't classical guitarists do arrangements in different keys? I read somewhere that part of arranging a classical piece is to find a key where the open strings work for you. It's a good idea with jazz chord melody too, often the difference between smooth time and that herky jerky stuff we sometimes hear from jazz players.
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--- In jazz_gui...@yahoogroups.com, "Matthew Chambers" <msc186@...> wrote:
> Have to agree with Juan. It's always in Em, far as I know.
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
This is typically thought by people who learned the tune from the Wrong Book (the Real Book). I don't know why it's in Em there; I've never heard anyone play it that key that wasn't influenced by that book. Never heard a recording of it played in Em before the Real Book came out.
I suspect that Misty is this way, too. The original key for that is G!
"The Shadow of Your Smile" is another tune in G with Em tonality ... it fluctuates between Em and G ... with a focus on F#m7 and B7 ... the ii7 - V7 of Em ...
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I've read this too, but I confess that I can't hear it.
I'm thinking, for example, of a song called Beiral. I play it in three different keys. Rosa Passos' key which I lifted from the record, and arrangements done in Db and C.
Once I'm playing I can't tell the difference. When I think about the different singers I don't notice differences in the overall brightness.
But, I'm convinced that others can hear it. I once spoke to John Cippolina (Quicksilver) about this. He associated each key with a color. I recall him saying "key of B, there's a lot of purple in that key".
Rick
--- In jazz_gui...@yahoogroups.com, JVegaTrio@... wrote:
> Hi> > I'm not too much into this, but it's my understanding that > different keys do indeed sound different, that "sharp" keys > tend to sound brighter than "flat" keys, etc. I'd be willing > to wager that hearing the same piece played in two different > one after another might be telling...
> Cheers, > JV
> Juan Vega
> In a message dated 11/7/2009 11:39:00 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, > rpjazzguitar@... writes:
> Don't classical guitarists do arrangements in different keys? I read > somewhere that part of arranging a classical piece is to find a key where the > open strings work for you. It's a good idea with jazz chord melody too, often > the difference between smooth time and that herky jerky stuff we sometimes > hear from jazz players.
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dave, as always an interesting post. I've never really thought about this ....
A minor Aeolian is all the white keys. A minor Dorian adds an F# A minor phrygian adds a Bb.
So, now we're choosing notes, in the key of C, as follows.
A Bb B C D E F Gb G
That's 9 notes. The only ones that aren't there are Db, Eb and Ab
How do I use this? Can you give me an example of a tune and an approach? Sorry to burden you with this question, but if you need help, you ask a generous man.
> Today, A minor can be A minor Aeolian, A minor Dorian and A minor Phrygian > mixed together. Again, this is combining chords from the Key of C, the Key > of G, and the Key of F against an A Tonal Center.
On 11/7/09, rguitarjj <rpjazzgui...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I've read this too, but I confess that I can't hear it.
> I'm thinking, for example, of a song called Beiral. I play it in three different keys. Rosa Passos' key which I lifted from the record, and arrangements done in Db and C.
> Once I'm playing I can't tell the difference. When I think about the different singers I don't notice differences in the overall brightness.
> But, I'm convinced that others can hear it. I once spoke to John Cippolina (Quicksilver) about this. He associated each key with a color. I recall him saying "key of B, there's a lot of purple in that key".
When my son was about 4-5 yrs old,he would "compose" little tunes on the piano.. All his songs were named after colors... One was "The Brown Song", another "The Red Song" and so on...I could never figure it out.
The Equal Tone Temperament system we use today tends to remove the sonority differences between keys. Our equal tone temperament tuning means that all the notes are exactly the same distance apart in pitch. Tuned this way, music sounds basically the same all the time even if it is written in different keys, other than being a little higher or lower in pitch.
The sonority differences that exist tend to be because of the instrument being played, it's range and construction rather than within the differences between keys.
Bradley Lehman, a researcher of historical temperaments and a performer of Bach's music, has a great web-site on this topic:
Y'know, Alisdair has it right, any tune should be in all keys. If you work w/ singers, you are often hit with songs in all sorts of different keys; I played w/ one once that did everything in B, and that was interesting. Sounded different, too.
Even the people who write the tunes sometimes change keys, depending on the situation, or who knows. What I find very interesting is that the same thing doesn't happen in classical music, ie, you'd never hear Bach's D Minor Invention in Ab minor, eg. I believe this is primarily because classical composers believed that different keys had different timbres.
Which brings me to a question for those here who write tunes: when you write a song, does the key center have any bearing on it? Personally, if I hear a melody in my head, I have the tendency to write the tune in the key in which I hear it, that sometimes drives my sax player nuts... Comments???
Cheers, JV
Juan Vega
In a message dated 11/7/2009 10:24:35 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
> --- In jazz_gui...@yahoogroups.com, Joe Gentile <jgentile@...> wrote:
> > > I suspect that Misty is this way, too. The original key for > that is > > > G!
> > The original key for Misty is Ab
> > Joe
> > Joe Gentile > > IPExperts.com > > 114 Clarkson Executive Park > > St. Louis, MO 63011 > > 800.442.5191 > > jgentile@...
> My mistake. I knew that, I just confused that knowledge with the > fact that Wes played Misty in G. There's only so much information > that fits in my head. Every time I learn something new, something > else falls out the bottom...
> Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use > .
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Alisdair, I'm not sure what you mean here. I understand and agree about using one's ears as opposed to only learning the Wrong Book (Real Book) changes, but I'm not sure why one couldn't use a B in the Cmaj7 with A in the melody. I would think that the C13 would be a bigger problem, with the Bb in the chord over an A melody note. I see CMaj7 as being the IV chord in the key of G, which has an available tension of F#. So, we're looking at an arp spelled C, E, G, B, D, F#. The F#m7(b5) would be spelled F#, A, C, E. As C6 can sub for CMaj7, giving us C, E, G, B, D, F#, A, why wouldn't this work?
Actually, my Real Book shows the final 4 bars as CMaj7, B7b9, Em. Seems as though the Berklee students that compiled the book tried to make the end of the tune hip by doing a chromatic thing, starting with the 6th measure from end, with Em7-->Eb7-->Dm7-->Db7-->Cmaj7-->B7, and then resolving V to i. I suspect that they didn't use C7 because CMaj7 is diatonic to the key.
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