funkifized34 wrote: > This Kumbaya crap is useless and wrong. Spending > excess time on studying how your finger touches > the string is time far better spent on actually > playing the damned instrument.
Interesting. So let me make sure I understand what you're saying: is it your considered position that the professor who teaches classical guitar at SMU here in Dallas is promoting "useless and wrong" exercises when he teaches a very similar exercise?
I've had a number of schooled guitarists recommend this same kind of exercise to me over the past 35 years, and IT REALLY HELPS. Far from being "kumbaya crap," it helps promote physical and emotional self-awareness, both of which are important elements in any kind of musical expression, whether you are reading music or not.
Not all students are the same. Spending time studying how your finger touches the string is really more important for many students and players than you claim. George Van Eps addresses this very concept, as do many other masters. This isn't anything new.
> This Kumbaya crap is useless and wrong. Spending excess time on > studying how your finger touches the string is time far better > spent on actually playing the damned instrument.
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This Kumbaya crap is useless and wrong. Spending excess time on studying how your finger touches the string is time far better spent on actually playing the damned instrument. Also, I and most educated music teachers have had much success with teaching beginning guitarists from day one to read music. This guitarprinciples.com site is filled with one-sided, misinformed teaching methods that wastes the serious student's time. If I spent anywhere near as much time as the author suggests on having the student "let the index finger drop from it's own weight into the palm of your right hand" and study how the finger touches the string, I'd be looking for a different job. As far as reading music goes, the first problem with this site is the assumption that the very beginner guitarist is a child. I have lots of beginners who are adults. Additionally, this crap about having to teach the child beginner fractions is way out of line. My experience, as I have also witnessed in most other teachers, is that the young child is already in a state of mind to learn new things, and are not that far away from learning that characters on the page mean different things. Young children are the perfect candidates for teaching music reading to, hence all the beginning guitar methods.
I love when a "teacher" comes along thinking that he/she is going to revolutionize guitar instruction and throws away everything that has been done previously in the area which many, many experts have thrived and worked through. I've got a 6-year-old guitar student that can sightread better than many professional players. Good thing I didn't throw away the music-reading ideas with her and try to just teach her to play by ear.
Next: let's throw away the system of music notation we've been using for hundreds of years and start using colors, numbers, or some such thing. Put on your tinfoil hats, we're going to start learning guitar the "modern" way...
> I have heard that Carmine Caruso, a great trumpet teacher, was so into > having players play with as little pressure against the lips as possible > that he hung a trumpet from the ceiling on strings and had the student > walk > up to the horn and play w/o touching it...
I had an old girlfriend who... oh, wait. That's for a later crowd...
Er, OK then, how do you REALLY feel??? Actually, I think there's a bit of value in examining some of the physical aspects of playing the guitar, especially for beginners. Learning to play guitar is a lot like learning to ride a bike, there are mental, visual, and physical/kinetic aspects that need to coalesce in order to make things work. I spend a lot of time trying to get my beginning students to develop a tension-free playing posture, good hand position, etc, because as I tell them, "practice makes permanent", and if you practice the wrong thing a lot, you can get really good at it.
Those of us who play folk/jazz/rock/pop/blues/etc, kind of get a "pass", because we can fudge quite a bit of things when it comes to technique; classical/flamenco/Brazilian players don't have the same "luxury", so they work really hard at developing good chops, and it shows not just visually, but when it comes time to play as well.
There are guitar educators out there who have spent a lot of time examining the physical aspects of guitar playing, and I think it's worth exploring/examining their efforts, even if it's just for the sake of information. Dennis Sandole (whose pupils included Pat Martino) had a whole theory (and exercises) about the relationships bet'n fingers, etc. Another great book is "Pumping Nylon"; it's full of really good (and challenging) exercises, and Mauro Giuliani's 120 right-hand exercises is extremely useful as well.
Not all of the stuff out there is "useless and wrong", but where it all falls flat on its face is when the live, in the room teacher is taken out of the equation. If this kind of material is utilized in an individual lesson (or even in a classroom) situation, then its value increases, because of the interactive component. At least, that's my .02.
BTW, I totally agree w/ you on the need to develop music reading ability...
Cheers, JV
Juan Vega
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In jazz_gui...@yahoogroups.com, "funkifized34" <Funkifized@...> wrote: This Kumbaya crap is useless and wrong. Spending excess time on studying how your finger touches the string is time far better spent on actually playing the damned instrument.
I hear you, but don't completely agree. Learning 'touch' on the guitar is crucial. I have had many students experience ah ha! moments when thinking about and feeling the necessary force to make strings sound. In teaching I try and show how extra force, particularly with the fretting hand, is unnecessary, counter productive, and dangerous. If I have misunderstood, excuse me. At any rate, Come by here, My Lord. I need any help You would give. ;-) Jim
> I love when a "teacher" comes along thinking that he/she is going to > revolutionize guitar instruction and throws away everything that has > been done previously in the area which many, many experts have thrived > and worked through.
I haven't seen the site, and so cannot comment. But this statement is true and poignant. So many claim to have reinvented the wheel, it seems, while what they really want to do is sell their system, book, or whatever. This is surprising, why?
On your comments regarding reading, new lows are attained every day, it seems. I recently had to download a tune in TAB because it wasn't available at all in notation. The TAB sheet had instructions on how to read TAB "for those who aren't studying", the implication being that the proper study of guitar employs the use of TAB, I suppose.
This is nothing new, though. My guess has always been that around 5% of all who pick up the guitar actually become real students of it. I don't think that's changed all that much. As a teacher, I'm always looking for that 5%, leaving the rest to someone who wants them (and there are lots who want them), and I do pretty good.
This Kumbaya crap is useless and wrong. Spending excess time on studying how
> your finger touches the string is time far better spent on actually playing > the damned instrument.
Sounds like you have a very tight finger grip... :-)
I have heard that Carmine Caruso, a great trumpet teacher, was so into having players play with as little pressure against the lips as possible that he hung a trumpet from the ceiling on strings and had the student walk up to the horn and play w/o touching it...A bit more dramatic than dropping a finger onto one's palm, but the lesson is the same... I have a friend who plays sax with such a tight bite that he literally bites through the mouthpiece AND the protective pads he puts on it.. There is no need for that to get a good sound on a horn... Relaxation is the key to almost everything we do... I think that the use of drugs and alcohol is an attempt to reach a state of relaxation while playing. Maybe, teachers should give the kids a shot of vodka before the session... j/k of course..:-)
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Anyone who has spent any time in the CG world taking lessons or working from books knows you say is true Juan. The mechanics of playing are nearly irrelevant to playing Walk Don't Run or the head to Autumn Leaves. But to get much beyond that you kneed all the advantages you can muster. Availing yourself of the correct mechanics to play accurately, or cleanly is the foundation for acquiring better playing skills.
The post we are responding to, I heard reenacted countless in lift lines at the ski area where I taught skiing. It's really not true for skiing and playing an instrument has counter intuitive aspects to it just as skiing does. Things that are fine on the bunny and intermediate slopes, will not get you down a steep bump run. Music is no different. Ron Living and playing outside the box.
> Er, OK then, how do you REALLY feel??? Actually, I think > there's a bit of value in examining some of the physical aspects > of playing the guitar, especially for beginners. Learning to play > guitar is a lot like learning to ride a bike, there are mental, > visual, and physical/kinetic aspects that need to coalesce in > order to make things work. I spend a lot of time trying to get > my beginning students to develop a tension-free playing > posture, good hand position, etc, because as I tell them, > "practice makes permanent", and if you practice the wrong thing > a lot, you can get really good at it.
> Those of us who play folk/jazz/rock/pop/blues/etc, kind of get a > "pass", because we can fudge quite a bit of things when it comes > to technique; classical/flamenco/Brazilian players don't have the > same "luxury", so they work really hard at developing good chops, > and it shows not just visually, but when it comes time to play as > well.
> There are guitar educators out there who have spent a lot of time > examining the physical aspects of guitar playing, and I think it's > worth exploring/examining their efforts, even if it's just for the > sake > of information. Dennis Sandole (whose pupils included Pat Martino) > had a whole theory (and exercises) about the relationships bet'n > fingers, etc. Another great book is "Pumping Nylon"; it's full of > really good (and challenging) exercises, and Mauro Giuliani's 120 > right-hand exercises is extremely useful as well.
> Not all of the stuff out there is "useless and wrong", but where it > all > falls flat on its face is when the live, in the room teacher is > taken out > of the equation. If this kind of material is utilized in an individual > lesson (or even in a classroom) situation, then its value increases, > because of the interactive component. At least, that's my .02.
> BTW, I totally agree w/ you on the need to develop music reading > ability...
> Cheers, > JV
> Juan Vega
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> > I have heard that Carmine Caruso, a great trumpet teacher, was so > into > > having players play with as little pressure against the lips as > possible > > that he hung a trumpet from the ceiling on strings and had the > student > > walk > > up to the horn and play w/o touching it...
> I had an old girlfriend who... oh, wait. That's for a later crowd...
> :-), > Bobby
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> I don't know about you, but my practice hours are "precious and few", > and which would you rather spend practice time doing, doing exercises > "laying your finger across your right-hand palm, using only the weight > of the finger", or...
OK. I've let my weight of my fingers move them into my palm for 3 episodes of 'Bones'. So far, they have yet to reach my palm. What now?
. Learning to play
guitar is a lot like learning to ride a bike, there are mental,
visual, and physical/kinetic aspects that need to coalesce in
order to make things work. I spend a lot of time trying to get
my beginning students to develop a tension-free playing posture, good hand position, etc, because as I tell them, "practice makes permanent", and if you practice the wrong thing
a lot, you can get really good at it.
.........
--
yeah, hmm, like falling off the bike, bruising your shins, picking the bike up, getting back on and doing it again ... learning to balance ..... falling off the bike, bruising your shins, picking the bike up, getting back on and doing it again ... learning to balance .....falling off the bike, bruising your shins, picking the bike up, getting back on and doing it again ... learning to balance .....falling off the bike, bruising your shins, picking the bike up, getting back on and doing it again ... learning to balance .....falling off the bike, bruising your shins, picking the bike up, getting back on and doing it again ... learning to balance .....falling off the bike, bruising your shins, picking the bike up, getting back on and doing it again ... learning to balance .....falling off the bike, bruising your shins, picking the bike up, getting back on and doing it again ... learning to balance .....falling off the bike, bruising your shins, picking the
bike up, getting back on and doing it again ... learning to balance .....falling off the bike, bruising your shins, picking the bike up, getting back on and doing it again ... learning to balance .....falling off the bike, bruising your shins, picking the bike up, getting back on and doing it again ... learning to balance .....falling off the bike, bruising your shins, picking the bike up, getting back on and doing it again ... learning to balance .....falling off the bike, bruising your shins, picking the bike up, getting back on and doing it again ... learning to balance .....falling off the bike, bruising your shins, picking the bike up, getting back on and doing it again ... learning to balance .....falling off the bike, bruising your shins, picking the bike up, getting back on and doing it again ... learning to balance .....falling off the bike, bruising your shins, picking the bike up, getting back on and doing it again ... learning to balance
.....falling off the bike, bruising your shins, picking the bike up, getting back on and doing it again ... learning to balance .....!
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Sorry about that, Ron, I just couldn't resist. And thanks for being such a gentleman about it (yes, I am aware that I really didn't give you the chance to NOT be a gentleman about it - I'm not so stupid, after all... :-) )
> Maybe, teachers should give the kids a shot of vodka before the session... > j/k of course..:-)
My students prefer Scotch. They're classier, I guess, but, as I said, they are the upper 5%.
:-), Bobby
_......................
How 'bout a nice warm glass of milk with cookies .... or maybe a trytophan capsule to relax like after a huge turkey dinner at Thanksgiving, when you just want to lay on the couch .... turkey is loaded with trytophan ... and so is milk .....kies....
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