[jazz_guitar] Stolen guitars
Tom Williams
The break-in was probably not a random event, and we suspect the thieves will try to sell the instruments out of state. We're currently identifying and notifying pawn shops and dealers in adjoining states. We'll also notify classical guitar dealers nationwide, and we'll moniter eBay and Craig's List. There is a national database of stolen goods maintained by law enforcement agencies, but we've been told that recovering stolen property that has been transported across the country is not very successful. If any of you have other suggestions or have been through this experience and have ideas for a successful recovery strategy, let me know. We've already notified all the classical guitar chat groups, including the Yahoo group. We know most of the classical guitar players and teachers locally, and all will be informed.
If you have any information, please contact me at tomwil...@yahoo.com. I only occasionally use my Hotmail address.
The guitars:
2003 Plazuelo classical guitar # 447 Spruce/Brazilian Rosewood (Note: anyone into classical guitars will recognize this guitar as a very special Granada-school instrument)
2000 Cervantes classical guitar 'Rodriguez' model #10400-69
The thieves were discerning. They left an entry-level flamenco guitar, only took the two higher-quality instruments.
Thanks to all,
Tom Williams
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------
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guit...@comcast.net
This post brings up a subject that has come up before on various guitar lists, namely, what company,if any, do members use for insuring instruments. Since I upgraded several instruments this year and am taking guitars out of the house more regularly, I think it's probably a good idea. I've heard that Heritage is widely used. All input appreciated.
TIA,
Brad
Scott R Dercks
equipment rider, tied to my home owners/renter's insurance. It is the
cheapest I have found.
Right now it's $47,000 of gear insured for $419 a year.
Scott Dercks (Minneapolis, MN)
On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 20:22:33 +0000 (UTC) guit...@comcast.net writes:
> Good luck, Tom.
> This post brings up a subject that has come up before on various
> guitar lists, namely, what company,if any, do members use for
> insuring instruments. Since I upgraded several instruments this year
> and am taking guitars out of the house more regularly, I think it's
> probably a good idea. I've heard that Heritage is widely used. All
> input appreciated.
> TIA,
> Brad
____________________________________________________________
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RONALD VITARELLI
>
> This post brings up a subject that has come up before on various
> guitar lists, namely, what company,if any, do members use for
> insuring instruments.
Greetings,
The AFM offers members a plan at a very good rate.
Support working musicians and become a member.
RV/CT/USA
Will
My insurance is through the Musician`s Union
and is a pretty good "instant replacement to
full value" policy which also covers gigs.
My experience with insurers is that the policy
is always great until you make a claim. So, nowadays
I don`t go for the cheapest but for one that I
actually trust.
When somebody pranged my wife`s vintage MG sports
car the call center in India tried to give us a
write-off value of £300. There then followed a
6 month haggle and the threat of legal action before
they grudgingly paid up the £2000 for the repair.
Of course when we took out the insurance the British
company completely failed to mention that any
claim would dealt with from the other side of the
world and would be a major test of nerves before
settlement.
Will
houseofcharm2
http://www.stolen911.com/index.php?a=5&b=162&page=1&c=37
Can they hide the maker's logos or change them to disguise them to fence them? And ebay is a good place to search for 'classical guitars" and save the search for 6-12 months with daily emails alerts. Good luck.
And it reminds me of an old tale from the 50s, my teacher Ray had John D' make him a blond NYer and kept it in the case under a sofa at his gig in nyc for 3 months. The last week of the show, he went get it and gone! He had time to run down to the the Tonight show(live then) and borrow an es140 from a guy he knew, ran back plugged in and 30 seconds later the curtain rose. John made him a second one that actually had neck problems.
Jeff
--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, Tom Williams <tomwil110548@...> wrote:
>
> Two classical guitars were stolen from a residence in Salt Lake City last week. We suspect the thieves will try to sell them quickly, either directly or through a fence. We have notified all local dealers, and the Salt Lake County Sheriff's Dept. keeps a database of stolen goods that goes out to all pawn shops in Utah. Any Utah pawn shop owner caught holding or selling identifiable stolen property can be prosecuted and will lose his license.
>
> The break-in was probably not a random event, and we suspect the thieves will try to sell the instruments out of state. We're currently identifying and notifying pawn shops and dealers in adjoining states. We'll also notify classical guitar dealers nationwide, and we'll moniter eBay and Craig's List. There is a national database of stolen goods maintained by law enforcement agencies, but we've been told that recovering stolen property that has been transported across the country is not very successful. If any of you have other suggestions or have been through this experience and have ideas for a successful recovery strategy, let me know. We've already notified all the classical guitar chat groups, including the Yahoo group. We know most of the classical guitar players and teachers locally, and all will be informed.
>
> If you have any information, please contact me at tomwil110548@... I only occasionally use my Hotmail address.
Zeek Duff
> 4a. Stolen guitars
> Posted by: "Tom Williams" tomwil...@hotmail.com
> Date: Sat Dec 19, 2009 12:00 pm ((PST))
>
> Two classical guitars were stolen from a residence in Salt Lake City
> last week. We suspect the thieves will try to sell them quickly,
> either directly or through a fence.
Hi Tom,
I hate to say this to you, but I've had a number of guitars stolen
over the years (7+?-not counting amps & other stuff), and the chances
of you getting anything back are slight. I never came close, and only
one ax was insured, and it was personally irreplaceable. The fact
that whomever took the best 2 of yours is most likely a coincidence,
they probably were able to carry only 2 and quickly grabbed those 2 at
random and left just as quickly.
Also, it's very unlikely they knew what they had or the real value,
and disposed of them for a few bucks to get rid of them quickly. I
know that's happened, an old folksinger gal friend had another friend
recover one of her stolen axes from a guy peddling it on the street in
Old Town, Chicago, circa mid-1960s, when that kind of "street-selling"
thing was pretty common to the area's activities; guitars, jewelry,
artwork, whatever could be carried to Wells St, and hung out with on a
corner or empty lot . My friend's (then) $500 Gibson B-25, purchased
back for $25. I did have one of the best axes I've ever owned given
to me, outright, by the sister of a guy who died and I'd written a
tune for her about... You never know...
Of course, insurance is good to have, but some things just can't be
replaced with money alone. Also, (in my humble opinion) it's very
unlikely the theft was committed by a musician, because who'd want
that kind of karmic debt weighting down their efforts to play and
promote their own music..? Make your best efforts to recover them of
course, but don't let a couple pieces of wood and metal ruin your
holidays. Guitars can be replaced, and sometimes, quite easily. :)
Best regards,
...z
"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench,
a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free,
and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side."
-Hunter S. Thompson
Fingerstyle guitar jazz from Zeek Duff in BEAUTIFUL COLORADO
http://www.MySpace.com/zeekduffmusic for streaming whole songs!
For audio clips and CD purchases of "Midnight Roses" from 2004;
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/zeekduff OR http://www.guitar9.com/midnightroses.html
Available for download on iTunes, Rhapsody & ALL other online stores!
http://www.zeekduff.com for more info - follow me http://twitter.com/zeekduff
william_v_nicholson
>
> replaced with money alone. Also, (in my humble opinion) it's very
> unlikely the theft was committed by a musician, because who'd want
> that kind of karmic debt weighting down their efforts to play and
> promote their own music..? Make your best efforts to recover them
Steve Jones and other members of the Sex Pistols supposedly stole instruments and amps for their band but I suspect a number of people on this mailing list would not consider them musicians anyway....
William
Will
world has been solved, this leaves
governments free to piss about with raids
on guitar companies and prosecute young kids
for illegal downloads.
Will
Jeff Shirkey
On Dec 21, 2009, at 2:47 PM, Will wrote:
> It is a good job all the crime in the
> world has been solved, this leaves
> governments free to piss about with raids
> on guitar companies
You defend Gibson right to the bitter end, don't you, Will? :)
I happen to think it's a good thing to uphold the CITES treaty.
Jeff
guit...@comcast.net
I happen to think it's a good thing to uphold the CITES treaty.<
Gibson is not even suspected of violating the CITES, but rather the US Lacey Act that goes back to 1900, although it has been amended in the last 20 years or so. It is most often used to protect animals, but does have the following:
>The amendments also created a separate and distinct violation for the intended falsification of documents pertaining to the exporting, importing, or transporting of wildlife, fish, or plants.< ( http://www.animallaw.info/articles/ovuslaceyact.htm )
News reports in the US have reported that the actual target of the investigation seems to be a European Import/Export company that is allegedly falsifying documents to get around restrictions.
As to CITES itself, some of its provisions make no sense. For example, I have several ivory dominoes (not even a full set) that were my grandfather's and date from the 1890s. I am having a classical guitar built by a luthier in Texas and would love to use this ivory for the saddle and nut, but that would be a violation as the material cannot be changed from its original state. Recently, there was a person selling tortoise guitar picks that had been made from pre-CITES existing hair combs who was charged for a CITES violation.
Of course, this has nothing to do with stolen guitars, so I'll tell my stolen guitar story. In the mid-70s I shared a house with several other guitarists. The house was also the gathering place of more musician friends who often left their guitars there rather than schlep them back and forth every day. One day the house was burgled, and the thieves took two electric guitars and a bass, total value maybe $150, only because the bass was probably worth at least $100. They left behind 8-10 acoustic guitars, all Guilds, Gibsons and Martins. Turned out they were teenagers wanting to start a band (maybe they were Sex Pistol fans, but I think they were just thugs). Irony of the story is that they knew we played, and if they had come to us and said they wanted to start a band, we would have given them even more stuff than they stole.
Brad
<
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------------------------------------
Will
I could care less that it is Gibson who were
raided any more than if it were Martin for
their use of ivory back in the 1960s.
I believe that the Police should spend their
time stopping burglaries, shootings and child
molestations.
One cop told me that they do not actively investigate
any house robberies but wait and see if stolen
property turns up by chance. Fat chance any musician
has of getting stolen guitars returned.
Will
Brian Kelly
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: william_v_nicholson
To: jazz_...@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 10:30 AM
Subject: [jazz_guitar] Re: Stolen guitars
--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, Zeek Duff <zeek@...> wrote:
>
> replaced with money alone. Also, (in my humble opinion) it's very
> unlikely the theft was committed by a musician, because who'd want
> that kind of karmic debt weighting down their efforts to play and
> promote their own music..? Make your best efforts to recover them
Steve Jones and other members of the Sex Pistols supposedly stole instruments and amps for their band but I suspect a number of people on this mailing list would not consider them musicians anyway....
William
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------
Jeff Shirkey
>
>
>
> I believe that the Police should spend their
> time stopping burglaries, shootings and child
> molestations.
Here in the US, they do. I guess things work a bit differently in the
UK?
It's incredibly difficult for the police to recover stolen goods,
guitars (etc.) included. And, admittedly, they are a lower priority
than solving violent crimes.
Back to jazz...
Jeff
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------
Jeff Shirkey
On Dec 22, 2009, at 1:12 PM, Will wrote:
> Jeff,
>
> Read Keith Richard`s biography, there is a
> very revealing part about the US law enforcement
> authorities.
>
> Money talks.
No doubt there are times when that's true. That said, Keith Richards
bio. isn't exactly a reliable source for information. : /
Jeff
Will
Read Keith Richard`s biography, there is a
very revealing part about the US law enforcement
authorities.
Money talks.
Will
>
> >
> >
> >
> > I believe that the Police should spend their
> > time stopping burglaries, shootings and child
> > molestations.
>
> Here in the US, they do. I guess things work a bit differently in the
> UK?
------------------------------------
John Amato
> > time stopping burglaries, shootings and child
> > molestations.
>
> Here in the US, they do. I guess things work a bit differently in the
> UK?
..................
Since most towns in the U.S. now have a "Parking Tax," which actually goes toward paying the jobs of the municipal parking authority, relegating the office of giving out parking tickets to the municipal parking authorities -- the police now have more power, time and responsibility to actully try and stop crime ....
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------
Angelo
>
>
> On Dec 22, 2009, at 1:12 PM, Will wrote:
>
> > Jeff,
> >
> > Read Keith Richard`s biography, there is a
> > very revealing part about the US law enforcement
> > authorities.
> >
> > Money talks.
>
>
> No doubt there are times when that's true. That said, Keith Richards
> bio. isn't exactly a reliable source for information. : /
>
Funny, I live in the US and I don't hear of any police stopping anything.
They are there after the fact. They prevent nothing.
Oh, wait! They do prevent musicians who are "disturbing the peace" by
playing in a park, even though there are people standing around enjoying the
music....
At least the police I've dealt with in London were polite. More than can be
said of NYPD...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------
Jeff Shirkey
> Funny, I live in the US and I don't hear of any police stopping
> anything.
> They are there after the fact. They prevent nothing.
Yeah, that's really an outrage. You know, I feel the same way about
doctors. I mean, all they do is come along *after* you get sick or
injured and try to help you. Man, what a bunch of losers. If they
wanted to earn their money, they'd prevent us all from getting sick
and hurt in the first place.
>
> At least the police I've dealt with in London were polite. More than
> can be
> said of NYPD...
And I'm sure you'd love living in NYC *without* the police, right?
Sure you would. It would be such a lovely, safe place.
Jeff
Brian Kelly
The famous Redlands bust happened in Britain. As far as I know Mick and Keith have never been arrested on the U.S. so when you say the Feds you are not talking about the FBI or CIA but you may be talking about Immigration Services or something like that.
I know Lennon claimed to have gotten some sort of special concessions but I don't remember the circumstances. I just remember him being on Tom Syder with his lawyer.
Brian
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: Will
To: jazz_...@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2009 5:21 PM
Subject: [jazz_guitar] Re: Stolen guitars
Jeff,
You should read it - I found it to be very
clear and well researched, actually not written
by Keith.
The double standards shown by the feds is
pretty sickening and I have no doubt is true.
On another similar incident....
When Mick Jagger was arrested in the famous drug
bust years ago he stated that.....
a. He did not take drugs.
b. The police officer in charge of the bust offered
to drop the charges for £1000.
Neither were believed at the time but a few years
ago under the freedom of information act it was revealed
that the particular officer had subsequently been sacked
for corruption. And, it is perfectly true that Mick
was never a drug user and now doesn`t even smoke and
like his father is a fitness fanatic.
Will
> No doubt there are times when that's true. That said, Keith Richards
> bio. isn't exactly a reliable source for information. : /
>
> Jeff
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------
Brian Kelly
What's it say in the biography? If it comes from Keith I would say its probably suspect. Keith loves to tell self aggrandizing tales these days.
Brian Kelly
----- Original Message -----
From: Will
To: jazz_...@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2009 1:12 PM
Subject: [jazz_guitar] Re: Stolen guitars
Jeff,
Read Keith Richard`s biography, there is a
very revealing part about the US law enforcement
authorities.
Money talks.
Will
>
> >
> >
> >
> > I believe that the Police should spend their
> > time stopping burglaries, shootings and child
> > molestations.
>
> Here in the US, they do. I guess things work a bit differently in the
> UK?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------
Bob Hansmann
> clear and well researched, actually not written
> by Keith.
OK, I'll bite. What happened?
Bobby
Will
You should read it - I found it to be very
clear and well researched, actually not written
by Keith.
The double standards shown by the feds is
pretty sickening and I have no doubt is true.
On another similar incident....
When Mick Jagger was arrested in the famous drug
bust years ago he stated that.....
a. He did not take drugs.
b. The police officer in charge of the bust offered
to drop the charges for £1000.
Neither were believed at the time but a few years
ago under the freedom of information act it was revealed
that the particular officer had subsequently been sacked
for corruption. And, it is perfectly true that Mick
was never a drug user and now doesn`t even smoke and
like his father is a fitness fanatic.
Will
> No doubt there are times when that's true. That said, Keith Richards
Angelo
> > anything.
> > They are there after the fact. They prevent nothing.
>
> Yeah, that's really an outrage. You know, I feel the same way about
> doctors. I mean, all they do is come along *after* you get sick or
> injured and try to help you. Man, what a bunch of losers. If they
> wanted to earn their money, they'd prevent us all from getting sick
> and hurt in the first place.
I agree with you about the doctors. It is their job to help people keep
well. Only problem is they know very little about how to do that. They, like
the police, are after the fact..
>
> > At least the police I've dealt with in London were polite. More than
> > can be
> > said of NYPD...
>
> And I'm sure you'd love living in NYC *without* the police, right?
> Sure you would. It would be such a lovely, safe place.
Actuality, I've lived here all my life. In the '70's when the police went on
strike, crime plummeted... If they did their job like you think they do, it
would be a much better place. But, they don't, so it isn't...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------
Will
broken into - the police did not investigate and
I complained. An inspector called to see me and
suggested that I form a committee.
Some months later I found some of my goods in a
second hand shop window and involved the police.
The store owner had taken down the car number
of the sellers and so it would have been easy
to trace who they were. On each visit to the
police station I was greeted with the same
dead-eyed lack of interest - again it was never
investigated. Even when their job is done for them
they are pretty useless.
Raiding a guitar warehouse is an "Easy pinch"
the feds/cops can spend the next six months piddling
about with paperwork and drinking coffee behind a desk.
Will
Will
the famous song by Nils Lofgren. In order
to avoid a 15yr prison sentence he had
to found a centre for drug rehab.
The item in his bio is a different incident
and needs to be read - I am not going to
post a quote.
As for the acuracy; it was not written
by Keith.
Last week an officer in NY drew his gun at a group
of kids having a snowball fight. I would feel
much safer without that sort of person on the streets.
Will
Will
Exactly my point - you did the cop`s job for them.
Will
> Years ago my house was broken into and they stole a half dozen guitars, amplifiers, a keyboard, stereo equipment, televisions and a ton of other stuff. I called the police but I didn't wait for them to start searching pawn shops in a few weeks. I put up a $300.00 reward and posted it all over the neighborhood.
Brian Kelly
That's nuts. The cops here in my experience are not as aggressive as they should or could be but they are not like that. I will say that even if they catch the guys who did it it is still hard to get them to court. You might get your stuff back but that may be as far as it will go sometimes.
Years ago my house was broken into and they stole a half dozen guitars, amplifiers, a keyboard, stereo equipment, televisions and a ton of other stuff. I called the police but I didn't wait for them to start searching pawn shops in a few weeks. I put up a $300.00 reward and posted it all over the neighborhood. I was planning on going higher if $300.00 didn't get any results but someone turned in the guys who did it within hours. I had all my stuff back the following night. I made the guys who did it pay me back the $500.00 and the cost of a few items that they actually threw away. They all plead guilty to get a reduced sentence.
It turns out that these guys were fulltime professional thieves. How they got caught was a guy in my neighbored went to them with information on where they could make a good score. He got some money from them right up front and that is how he got caught because he bragged to others about doing all of this. One of the people he bragged to turned him in for the reward.
Brian Kelly
----- Original Message -----
From: Will
To: jazz_...@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2009 2:42 AM
Subject: [jazz_guitar] Re: Stolen guitars
Will
It was not a drug bust - but who supplied
him.
I have loaned the book out but I think it
was by "Victor Bockris"
Will
--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Kelly" <bkelly@...> wrote:
>
> Will,
>
> I can't imagine what you are talking about. As far as I know I have read every book every written about the Rolling Stones. I probably own thirty of them but I don't remember anything significant about any drug bust.
Brian Kelly
I can't imagine what you are talking about. As far as I know I have read every book every written about the Rolling Stones. I probably own thirty of them but I don't remember anything significant about any drug bust.
Jagger has become a health nut and as you stated he's leaned that way all of his life and even though Keith once stated the"Mick is the least self-destructive person I have ever known" his earlier drug use is well documented. Keith said that the first time Mick ever went into withdrawal that was it for him and heroin. He quit immediately. Of course some of this is almost absurdly funny since most "celebrity addicts" are sort of a joke and it's hard to take them serious as real life junkies to begin with.
Brian Kelly
----- Original Message -----
From: Will
To: jazz_...@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2009 2:27 AM
Subject: [jazz_guitar] Re: Stolen guitars
Keith was arrested in Toronto - hence
the famous song by Nils Lofgren. In order
to avoid a 15yr prison sentence he had
to found a centre for drug rehab.
The item in his bio is a different incident
and needs to be read - I am not going to
post a quote.
As for the acuracy; it was not written
by Keith.
Last week an officer in NY drew his gun at a group
of kids having a snowball fight. I would feel
much safer without that sort of person on the streets.
Will
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------
Will
We are probably quite similar.
I have been on jury service several times and
most of the thieving little yobs that we convicted
were on their umpteenth offence. One crew had 22
(yes twenty two,) previous convictions but had
not served time for any of them.
Cops have said to me that they get sick of
arresting people just to see them walk. So, they
focus on the easy jobs which get them the most
overtime. One cop told me that he used to go to
concerts whilst off-duty and look around for somebody
with a joint - because he did the arrest whilst off
duty he got an automatic 12 hours overtime pay.
One thing cops don`t like is a job that drags on so
they actively do not follow up house burglaries. For
the same time it takes to chase stolen goods they can
get 100 traffic violations and their statistics go right up.
BTW, I did follow the O.J. trial and thought it to be
a circus show.
Will
> Will,
>
> Well, if you knew me better you would know I don't take to being a victim easily and in this case I wanted my guitars back in a big way. I also knew that the longer it took for the police to get around to doing much about my burglary the more unlikely it would be for me to get my stuff back. So, I didn't wait.
Brian Kelly
Well, if you knew me better you would know I don't take to being a victim easily and in this case I wanted my guitars back in a big way. I also knew that the longer it took for the police to get around to doing much about my burglary the more unlikely it would be for me to get my stuff back. So, I didn't wait.
Another thing is that in our country the police have a hard time getting anybody convicted. If you saw the O.J. Simpson trial you saw an extreme version of the problem but trust me even if you have eye witnesses and photographs you sometimes still can't get a conviction. Hell, you sometimes can't even get a conviction if you have a signed confession.
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: Will To: jazz_...@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2009 8:53 AM
Subject: [jazz_guitar] Re: Stolen guitars
Brian,
Exactly my point - you did the cop`s job for them.
Will
> Years ago my house was broken into and they stole a half dozen guitars, amplifiers, a keyboard, stereo equipment, televisions and a ton of other stuff. I called the police but I didn't wait for them to start searching pawn shops in a few weeks. I put up a $300.00 reward and posted it all over the neighborhood.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------
Brian Kelly
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: Will
To: jazz_...@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2009 8:48 AM
Subject: [jazz_guitar] Re: Stolen guitars
Brian,
It was not a drug bust - but who supplied
him.
I have loaned the book out but I think it
was by "Victor Bockris"
Will
--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Kelly" <bkelly@...> wrote:
>
> Will,
>
> I can't imagine what you are talking about. As far as I know I have read every book every written about the Rolling Stones. I probably own thirty of them but I don't remember anything significant about any drug bust.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------
Brian Kelly
"We are probably quite similar".
Will,
Well, I don't know about you but I came up the hard way so I value
everything I've got. I am also an ethical person and stealing from me makes
me kind of nuts. It's not something I'll put up with if I don't have to and
for the most part I feel like I don't have to. If you steal my stuff I can
get really ugly about gettng it back.
Brian
Will
Yep - I can live with that.
Cheers
Will
--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Kelly" <bkelly@...> wrote:
>
>
>