Sun JVM for the iPhone
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Daniel Schneller
Mar 8, 2008, 7:27:54 AM3/8/08
to The Java Posse
According to the register, Sun's Eric Klein (VP of Java marketing)
told them that they will go an develop a JVM for the iPhone, now that
Apple has released the SDK. I own an iPod touch and would really love
to be able to write programs for it in Java. Furthermore I am strongly
considering switching to a Mac from my current Windows/Ubuntu PC. Does
this mean that a Sun JVM for "real" Mac OS X becomes more probable?
From what I understood, the foundation of the iPhone OS is very much
the same OS X.
Here is the article I am referring to:
http://www.regdeveloper.co.uk/2008/03/08/jvm_for_the_iphone/
This would definitely push me a bit more into the Mac direction :)
Daniel
told them that they will go an develop a JVM for the iPhone, now that
Apple has released the SDK. I own an iPod touch and would really love
to be able to write programs for it in Java. Furthermore I am strongly
considering switching to a Mac from my current Windows/Ubuntu PC. Does
this mean that a Sun JVM for "real" Mac OS X becomes more probable?
From what I understood, the foundation of the iPhone OS is very much
the same OS X.
Here is the article I am referring to:
http://www.regdeveloper.co.uk/2008/03/08/jvm_for_the_iphone/
This would definitely push me a bit more into the Mac direction :)
Daniel
Mac
Mar 8, 2008, 3:35:19 PM3/8/08
to The Java Posse
They are porting Java ME instead of Java SE though. Which is kinda
a bummer.
Here is an article with more info.
http://www.infoworld.com/article/08/03/07/sun-iphone-java_1.html
I also wonder how this will work. there is no way Apple will let
people write java app and deploy it to iPhone bypassing the AppStore.
and also this little "bit" from the SDK agreement
No interpreted code may be downloaded and used in an Application
except for code that is interpreted and run by Apple's Published APIs
and builtin interpreter(s)
On Mar 8, 7:27 am, Daniel Schneller <daniel.schnel...@gmail.com>
wrote:
a bummer.
Here is an article with more info.
http://www.infoworld.com/article/08/03/07/sun-iphone-java_1.html
I also wonder how this will work. there is no way Apple will let
people write java app and deploy it to iPhone bypassing the AppStore.
and also this little "bit" from the SDK agreement
No interpreted code may be downloaded and used in an Application
except for code that is interpreted and run by Apple's Published APIs
and builtin interpreter(s)
On Mar 8, 7:27 am, Daniel Schneller <daniel.schnel...@gmail.com>
wrote:
Daniel Schneller
Mar 8, 2008, 6:37:12 PM3/8/08
to The Java Posse
> They are porting Java ME instead of Java SE though. Which is kinda
> a bummer.
I have recently begun to look at JavaME. From what I have seen so far
> a bummer.
it does not look completely crippled, so I guess it is a good start.
> I also wonder how this will work. there is no way Apple will let
> people write java app and deploy it to iPhone bypassing the AppStore.
download any archive from a website that may contain a Java
application.
> No interpreted code may be downloaded and used in an Application
> except for code that is interpreted and run by Apple's Published APIs
> and builtin interpreter(s)
though if this was the only reason they could not port it.
Michael Neale
Mar 8, 2008, 9:49:14 PM3/8/08
to The Java Posse
yes perhaps they would consider more then just ME in long run (eg so
it can run JavaFX).
From a short term business standpoint, ME makes sense. as there are
TONS of games etc targeting J2ME.
Unfortunately, J2ME is one of the technologies that I neither want to
use, or produce, ever. I guess its targeted at people who pay a dollar
for a ringtone or something (perhaps I am getting old).
On Mar 9, 9:37 am, Daniel Schneller <daniel.schnel...@gmail.com>
wrote:
it can run JavaFX).
From a short term business standpoint, ME makes sense. as there are
TONS of games etc targeting J2ME.
Unfortunately, J2ME is one of the technologies that I neither want to
use, or produce, ever. I guess its targeted at people who pay a dollar
for a ringtone or something (perhaps I am getting old).
On Mar 9, 9:37 am, Daniel Schneller <daniel.schnel...@gmail.com>
wrote:
Daniel Schneller
Mar 9, 2008, 1:03:18 PM3/9/08
to The Java Posse
> Unfortunately, J2ME is one of the technologies that I neither want to
> use, or produce, ever. I guess its targeted at people who pay a dollar
> for a ringtone or something (perhaps I am getting old).
This may be true for a large portion of the market, however I am
> use, or produce, ever. I guess its targeted at people who pay a dollar
> for a ringtone or something (perhaps I am getting old).
currently working on a project where we use JavaME for a business
application.
believe the potential is definitely there, at least if you can rely
on somewhat more powerful devices than most phones. We build upon the
CDC profile which does not seem to impose too many restrictions.
Chris Adamson
Mar 9, 2008, 1:30:56 PM3/9/08
to The Java Posse
A couple thoughts, some of which probably won't be well-received among
this group:
1. The case for/against Java ME on the iPhone is analogous to that of
Flash. The strength of each is that they provide a rich runtime in
environments that wouldn't otherwise offer them (Java ME on the phone,
Flash in the browser). Flash also has a strength in that it provides
a simple and consistent solution for audio/video playback. Thing is,
the iPhone already provides both of these: it's already the next-
generation video iPod, and the new SDK allows for ridiculously rich
application development.
It's going to be very important for Sun do deliver real *value* with
an iPhone JVM... and that means doing more than just showing it
running at JavaOne. They need to answer the question "why would an
application developer use Java instead of the SDK the iPhone already
has?" Maybe the answer has to do with all the Java apps already out
there for phones... if so, then they probably need to facilitate
getting those apps to users (more on this in the next point).
2. The fact that apps developed with the iPhone (Public) SDK can't run
in the background probably puts the kibosh on Java for iPhone working
as a library. I can imagine that you'd see the runtime distributed as
a user-facing "Java Application Manager" which would not only be the
runtime but also the tools to download and add/delete/run midlets, so
anything you do in Java would all occur inside this same user-space
app. Apropos of point 1, it might be a good idea to license some of
the best existing midlets (the Namco games, some utilities, whatever)
and bundle them with the runtime, so the user has some incentive to
get the runtime. Another option might be that Sun would license their
iPhone JVM to third parties who would then distribute the JVM and
their midlet as a single app, though this could be a real waste of
space once users have multiple JVMs, each hiding inside an
application.
3. I can't be the first to see the irony: Apple declines to put Java
on the iPhone, so Sun picks up the slack. What's keeping them from
doing the same on Mac OS X, where Apple seems to be dragging its feet
on Java 6? It's a weird situation for Apple to be paying license fees
to Sun for the commercial JDK license and then not actually getting a
product out the door, but if that's how they want to spend their
dollars in Cupertino, so be it. The question is, does it hurt Sun to
have the new version of Java unavailable to Mac users? Enough so that
they'd just pick up the ball themselves? I guess it's a question of
whether the current situation hurts Apple or Sun more. Are Java
developers really going to dump their MacBooks en masse (and will
anyone else even notice?), or is not being current on the most
exciting client-side platform going to imply Java's irrelevance as a
user-facing technology? Or is Java 6 just not even that big of a deal
for most people to care about either way?
4. I downloaded the iPhone SDK on Friday, and started working with it
and reading the docs on the plane back from the Roundup. Technically,
the contents are NDA; even though anyone can get it through the Apple
Developer Connection site, the terms for the SDK and the ADC site as a
whole prohibit public discussion of unreleased software. So let me
just say something general and subjective: this is a WONDERFUL
frickin' SDK. I have not been this excited about development
possibilities since the original JDK in 1996. There is so much to
work with here, I can hardly believe it's really on my laptop.
5. Two months ago, I was at the Mobile & Embedded Developer Days,
where the main topic was "fragmentation", and the roadblocks put in
front of ME developers. I once proposed that O'Reilly do a "Real
World Java ME" book, saying that the book should "contain the names
and phone numbers of the mid-level executives at handset makers and
carriers that you would have to go down on to get your apps out to end-
users." And then there's Blu-Ray, where one would-be developer sent
me a series of e-mails detailing his attempts to get into BD-J, which
ended with his contacting the BDA and getting the reply "The
conclusion is that we recommend you to obtain a BD-ROM License in BD-
ROM Tools & Manufacturing Equipment/BD-ROM Tester category for the
amount of $15k." Oh wait, I noticed in a recent thread that you may
be able to get in the door with BD-J for a newly-reduced price of
$4,000. Thanks, guys.
By comparison, Apple offers a freely-available public SDK, nice tools,
registration for $99 (which gets you your app-signing certificate),
and lets the developer set his or her own price, of which Apple takes
30%. For the small developer, relieved of the burdens of developing
or licensing a commercial software infrastructure (processing credit
cards, serving downloads, licensing individual copies, updating,
etc.), this is a bargain. Compared to the ME and BD-J markets, which
are effectively closed to the independent developer, jumping into
iPhone development is an absolute no-brainer.
I just realized an irony. If Sun does bring Java ME to the iPhone,
it'll be easier for an ME developer to develop ME for the iPhone than
for any of the billions of "real" ME phones already out there.
I have one lingering Java project to put to bed before I really focus
on the iPhone. I've already worked with Cocoa on the Mac, so my
comfort level with the iPhone SDK is already high. Ease of
development plus a fast-growing market plus actual access to that
market... well, like I said, I haven't been this excited about
programming in more than a decade.
--Chris
this group:
1. The case for/against Java ME on the iPhone is analogous to that of
Flash. The strength of each is that they provide a rich runtime in
environments that wouldn't otherwise offer them (Java ME on the phone,
Flash in the browser). Flash also has a strength in that it provides
a simple and consistent solution for audio/video playback. Thing is,
the iPhone already provides both of these: it's already the next-
generation video iPod, and the new SDK allows for ridiculously rich
application development.
It's going to be very important for Sun do deliver real *value* with
an iPhone JVM... and that means doing more than just showing it
running at JavaOne. They need to answer the question "why would an
application developer use Java instead of the SDK the iPhone already
has?" Maybe the answer has to do with all the Java apps already out
there for phones... if so, then they probably need to facilitate
getting those apps to users (more on this in the next point).
2. The fact that apps developed with the iPhone (Public) SDK can't run
in the background probably puts the kibosh on Java for iPhone working
as a library. I can imagine that you'd see the runtime distributed as
a user-facing "Java Application Manager" which would not only be the
runtime but also the tools to download and add/delete/run midlets, so
anything you do in Java would all occur inside this same user-space
app. Apropos of point 1, it might be a good idea to license some of
the best existing midlets (the Namco games, some utilities, whatever)
and bundle them with the runtime, so the user has some incentive to
get the runtime. Another option might be that Sun would license their
iPhone JVM to third parties who would then distribute the JVM and
their midlet as a single app, though this could be a real waste of
space once users have multiple JVMs, each hiding inside an
application.
3. I can't be the first to see the irony: Apple declines to put Java
on the iPhone, so Sun picks up the slack. What's keeping them from
doing the same on Mac OS X, where Apple seems to be dragging its feet
on Java 6? It's a weird situation for Apple to be paying license fees
to Sun for the commercial JDK license and then not actually getting a
product out the door, but if that's how they want to spend their
dollars in Cupertino, so be it. The question is, does it hurt Sun to
have the new version of Java unavailable to Mac users? Enough so that
they'd just pick up the ball themselves? I guess it's a question of
whether the current situation hurts Apple or Sun more. Are Java
developers really going to dump their MacBooks en masse (and will
anyone else even notice?), or is not being current on the most
exciting client-side platform going to imply Java's irrelevance as a
user-facing technology? Or is Java 6 just not even that big of a deal
for most people to care about either way?
4. I downloaded the iPhone SDK on Friday, and started working with it
and reading the docs on the plane back from the Roundup. Technically,
the contents are NDA; even though anyone can get it through the Apple
Developer Connection site, the terms for the SDK and the ADC site as a
whole prohibit public discussion of unreleased software. So let me
just say something general and subjective: this is a WONDERFUL
frickin' SDK. I have not been this excited about development
possibilities since the original JDK in 1996. There is so much to
work with here, I can hardly believe it's really on my laptop.
5. Two months ago, I was at the Mobile & Embedded Developer Days,
where the main topic was "fragmentation", and the roadblocks put in
front of ME developers. I once proposed that O'Reilly do a "Real
World Java ME" book, saying that the book should "contain the names
and phone numbers of the mid-level executives at handset makers and
carriers that you would have to go down on to get your apps out to end-
users." And then there's Blu-Ray, where one would-be developer sent
me a series of e-mails detailing his attempts to get into BD-J, which
ended with his contacting the BDA and getting the reply "The
conclusion is that we recommend you to obtain a BD-ROM License in BD-
ROM Tools & Manufacturing Equipment/BD-ROM Tester category for the
amount of $15k." Oh wait, I noticed in a recent thread that you may
be able to get in the door with BD-J for a newly-reduced price of
$4,000. Thanks, guys.
By comparison, Apple offers a freely-available public SDK, nice tools,
registration for $99 (which gets you your app-signing certificate),
and lets the developer set his or her own price, of which Apple takes
30%. For the small developer, relieved of the burdens of developing
or licensing a commercial software infrastructure (processing credit
cards, serving downloads, licensing individual copies, updating,
etc.), this is a bargain. Compared to the ME and BD-J markets, which
are effectively closed to the independent developer, jumping into
iPhone development is an absolute no-brainer.
I just realized an irony. If Sun does bring Java ME to the iPhone,
it'll be easier for an ME developer to develop ME for the iPhone than
for any of the billions of "real" ME phones already out there.
I have one lingering Java project to put to bed before I really focus
on the iPhone. I've already worked with Cocoa on the Mac, so my
comfort level with the iPhone SDK is already high. Ease of
development plus a fast-growing market plus actual access to that
market... well, like I said, I haven't been this excited about
programming in more than a decade.
--Chris
Paul Wallace
Mar 9, 2008, 5:14:07 PM3/9/08
to The Java Posse
Firstly, I'm guessing the proposal to port JME, and not JSE, probably
comes for the need to have location services and the other phone
specific feature of JME. I don't think these feature are available in
JSE yet?
It's interesting that Apple are starting to push the iPhone as an
Enterprise solution but have not given a Java development option.
Objective C is not a common skill set in the enterprise.
Also, from the iPhone SDK press release it appears that you need a Mac
to develop for the iPhone. Not too many Macs floating around the
Corporate developer pool.
If Apple are serious about pushing the iPhone in the Enterprise they
must realize that Corporates will need to develop there own apps, and
they won't want to do this with Objective C on a Mac. So perhaps this
is the opportunity for Java.
But it is a breath of fresh air to see how Apple have managed their
relationships with the carriers to be able to produce the App Store
and solve the application distribution problem from day one. Why
could Nokia, Ericssons etc not have done this years ago?
Cheers
Paul
comes for the need to have location services and the other phone
specific feature of JME. I don't think these feature are available in
JSE yet?
It's interesting that Apple are starting to push the iPhone as an
Enterprise solution but have not given a Java development option.
Objective C is not a common skill set in the enterprise.
Also, from the iPhone SDK press release it appears that you need a Mac
to develop for the iPhone. Not too many Macs floating around the
Corporate developer pool.
If Apple are serious about pushing the iPhone in the Enterprise they
must realize that Corporates will need to develop there own apps, and
they won't want to do this with Objective C on a Mac. So perhaps this
is the opportunity for Java.
But it is a breath of fresh air to see how Apple have managed their
relationships with the carriers to be able to produce the App Store
and solve the application distribution problem from day one. Why
could Nokia, Ericssons etc not have done this years ago?
Cheers
Paul
sherod
Mar 10, 2008, 1:55:01 AM3/10/08
to The Java Posse
When all you have is a (Java) hammer, everything looks like a nail....
Since I don't know JavaME and have only used a couple of (appalling)
java apps on my cell phone I can't say I'm hanging out for Java ME on
the iPhone platform.
I'm just going to look into picking up Objective-C and see if I can
create something useful for my own personal iPod Touch.
Since I don't know JavaME and have only used a couple of (appalling)
java apps on my cell phone I can't say I'm hanging out for Java ME on
the iPhone platform.
I'm just going to look into picking up Objective-C and see if I can
create something useful for my own personal iPod Touch.
Daniel Schneller
Mar 10, 2008, 3:35:38 AM3/10/08
to The Java Posse
> Also, from the iPhone SDK press release it appears that you need a Mac
> to develop for the iPhone. Not too many Macs floating around the
> Corporate developer pool.
Ack. Unfortunately ;-)
> to develop for the iPhone. Not too many Macs floating around the
> Corporate developer pool.
> If Apple are serious about pushing the iPhone in the Enterprise they
> must realize that Corporates will need to develop there own apps, and
> they won't want to do this with Objective C on a Mac. So perhaps this
> is the opportunity for Java.
available to Objective C folks and probably will get you the most
native app, it is just unrealistic for us to maintain an application
in a different language and solve all the interop issues that will
definitely arise.
Maybe Java apps won't be looking as slick and polished as a native app
(where do they anyway, maybe apart from Eclipse?), but for enterprises
with internal apps that might just not be as relevant.
Casper Bang
Mar 10, 2008, 10:13:53 AM3/10/08
to The Java Posse
Between all this wishful thinking and rumors, it's worth noting that
the Apple license doesn't in any way, shape of form seem to allow
this:
http://alblue.blogspot.com/2008/03/macjava-no-java-for-iphone.html
Let's face it, Apple has no interest in letting consumers convert
their iPod Touch into a real SIP based phone and the other goodness
coming out of sites like http://touchmods.wordpress.com/, it would
trip their monopoly based alliances with individual service providers
and make people less reluctant to throwing their expensive device in
the dumpster at the arrival of next generation 6 months later.
/Casper
the Apple license doesn't in any way, shape of form seem to allow
this:
http://alblue.blogspot.com/2008/03/macjava-no-java-for-iphone.html
Let's face it, Apple has no interest in letting consumers convert
their iPod Touch into a real SIP based phone and the other goodness
coming out of sites like http://touchmods.wordpress.com/, it would
trip their monopoly based alliances with individual service providers
and make people less reluctant to throwing their expensive device in
the dumpster at the arrival of next generation 6 months later.
/Casper
Christian Catchpole
Mar 11, 2008, 6:50:55 PM3/11/08
to The Java Posse
The big question for me is the quality of the JITs on ARM. A quick
google shows there should be plenty of implementations. And more
promisingly, the iPhone seems to have a thing called Jazelle.
"Jazelle technology is a combined hardware and software solution from
ARM. ARM Jazelle technology software is a full featured multi-tasking
Java Virtual Machine (JVM), highly optimized to take advantage of
Jazelle technology architecture extensions available in many ARM
processor cores. "
http://www.arm.com/products/esd/jazelle_home.html
http://www.psynixis.com/blog/2007/07/02/iphone-has-hardware-java-acceleration/
google shows there should be plenty of implementations. And more
promisingly, the iPhone seems to have a thing called Jazelle.
"Jazelle technology is a combined hardware and software solution from
ARM. ARM Jazelle technology software is a full featured multi-tasking
Java Virtual Machine (JVM), highly optimized to take advantage of
Jazelle technology architecture extensions available in many ARM
processor cores. "
http://www.arm.com/products/esd/jazelle_home.html
http://www.psynixis.com/blog/2007/07/02/iphone-has-hardware-java-acceleration/
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