James Gosling Says He Doesn't Care About Java

[Mario Fusco]

"Most people talk about Java the language, and this may sound odd
coming from me, but I could hardly care less." - James Gosling, TSSJS
2011

http://www.theserverside.com/news/2240037412/James-Gosling-Says-He-Doesnt-Care-About-Java

Any comments?

[Steven Herod]

I'm developing daddy issues now.

On Jun 30, 4:11 pm, Mario Fusco <mario.fu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "Most people talk about Java the language, and this may sound odd
> coming from me, but I could hardly care less."  - James Gosling, TSSJS
> 2011
>

> http://www.theserverside.com/news/2240037412/James-Gosling-Says-He-Do...
>
> Any comments?

[Cédric Beust ♔]

Gosling stopped doing anything related to Java ten years ago, so this statement doesn't exactly surprise me.

-- 

Cédric

[Casper Bang]

> Gosling stopped doing anything related to Java ten years ago, so this
> statement doesn't exactly surprise me.

So did Sun. lol

[Kirk]

shameful sensationalist headline. The next line is, what I do care about is the JVM. It's been like that for many people for quite some time.

Kirk

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Java Posse" group.
To post to this group, send email to java...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.

[Phil]

I think this (albeit lightweight) article on The Register adds some
food for thought: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/06/30/java_misses_the_point_under_oracle/

I think the article's premise is right. Java has fallen too far
behind. Freeze the language spec at Java 7 and focus on the JVM and
functional languages.

I've not used Scala enough to confidently state that it can supplant
Java everywhere (and please don't make the mistake that I'm assuming
therefore that it can't). However within a week of starting to use
Groovy at work I realised that there is just no point in using Java
where Groovy can do the same job, with significantly less code. Groovy
has lots of features that Java doesn't have and won't have any time
soon (if ever), re-use of existing Java libraries is trivial and of
course I can mix Java in if the need arises.

So I can se James Gosling's point. If the man has an intellectual
interest in languages he can see that Java hasn't kept up, won't catch
up, and the platform is the asset. Despite having used Java pretty
much exclusively for the last ten years I owe it no allegiance. I've
had the opportunity to work in Groovy and I won't be going back -
because I want to write less code to achieve the same result, quicker
than I can in Java.

I don't care about Java either! And neither does my wife! (that's both
a Life of Brian / Sparticus reference _and_ the truth...)

On Jun 30, 7:11 am, Mario Fusco <mario.fu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "Most people talk about Java the language, and this may sound odd
> coming from me, but I could hardly care less."  - James Gosling, TSSJS
> 2011
>

> http://www.theserverside.com/news/2240037412/James-Gosling-Says-He-Do...
>
> Any comments?

[Fabrizio Giudici]

On 06/30/2011 01:08 PM, Phil wrote:
> I think this (albeit lightweight) article on The Register adds some
> food for thought: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/06/30/java_misses_the_point_under_oracle/
>
> I think the article's premise is right. Java has fallen too far
> behind. Freeze the language spec at Java 7 and focus on the JVM and
> functional languages.

Sorry if I'm going to be really harsh, but it's my character. I must say
I have a strong prejudice against general media, as I don't trust them
when they talk about the Big Bang, the Shuttle, or the latest fuel-cell
technology. Figure it out when they talk about software. But I think I
can work against my prejudices and I admit I could find a good article
about software, after all. But when I find an inception such as:

"Oracle's roadmap for Javas 7 and 8 shows it recognizes the world is
pulling away and leaving Java with last-century concepts and ideals.
Java 7 is meant to set the foundation for a cloud-friendly platform, but
the real cloud-ready features won't make an appearance until Java 8 in
2013 at the earliest.

While Larry and company can't be blamed for the years of stagnation
suffered by both the platform and language under Sun Microsystems, the
problem faced isn't that Java lacks the technology to work nicely in the
cloud: the problem is, as ever, one of perception.

Java is either not "enterprise" enough for cloud computing � apparently
lacking the required widgets � or it's too enterprisey and therefore not
cool enough to join the likes of Ruby and Python."

"The world is pulling away?" Yeah, look at Tiobe. And what the heck is
saying about the cloud? What's a "widget" for the cloud? Sorry, I won't
read it further.

So, back to us. Ruby and Python and Groovy and all the dynamic languages
are where they were a few years ago and the respective communities was
claiming that they were going to take the world by storm. Scala is
definitely the most interesting stuff (not by chance, is statically
typed), but it's still 0.xx% of share. Let's see whether it grows.

So, what are we talking about?

And, pardon me, why a supposedly objective and scientifically-attituded
community should still comment Gosling's points as he's a sort of prophet?

Coming to Groovy, since we're talking about personal experience. It has
been the first language I started seriously studying and practicing a
couple of years ago, not for replacing Java but because I was curious to
see whether it could solve some DSL-like tasks. For me it has been a
total delusion. Useless even in parts that it was supposed to be
helpful. At present time only a few lines of Groovy survive in a Maven
plugin for building an Android project, but just because I didn't find
the time to replace it with a simpler solution.

Of corse, this is subjective and I'm totally sure that many guys are
doing very smart things with Ruby, Groovy, and what else. And that
they're better at it than with Java. Fine. Just don't call yourself "the
world".

--
Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager
Tidalwave s.a.s. - "We make Java work. Everywhere."
java.net/blog/fabriziogiudici - www.tidalwave.it/people
Fabrizio...@tidalwave.it

[Phil Haigh]

Well I don't totally disagree with you - I found the register article to be lightweight and not fully considered - almost to the point of unconscious(?) self-ridicule - if the cloud is what you define it to be, Oracle can define it on their own terms.

Neither do I take the James Gosling comment as gospel. After all, by itself it is just a statement about one person's current point of view. A bit like me saying "I've really gone off my Ford Focus". It might be true for him, it doesn't mean it applies to everybody. My neighbour loves her new Focus, after all.

For me it was simply that scanning the El Reg article and re-reading the Gosling comment (which is hardly new) made me think about my own point of view and how it has changed. Java isn't irrelevant, but the last time I was looking for a contract I saw a lot more clients:
- expecting XP and Agile methodologies (previously this wasn't so important)
- looking for functional experience, or people who could pick it up quickly. Especially in the consultancy space.

I saw the same thing with JSF a few years ago. For a long time JSF was around but not being used, then 2007/8 that picture changed dramatically. I'm not predicting another shift anytime soon, but functional languages are making inroads in the enterprise.

On 30 Jun 2011, at 12:38, Fabrizio Giudici wrote:

> On 06/30/2011 01:08 PM, Phil wrote:
>> I think this (albeit lightweight) article on The Register adds some
>> food for thought: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/06/30/java_misses_the_point_under_oracle/
>>
>> I think the article's premise is right. Java has fallen too far
>> behind. Freeze the language spec at Java 7 and focus on the JVM and
>> functional languages.
> Sorry if I'm going to be really harsh, but it's my character. I must say I have a strong prejudice against general media, as I don't trust them when they talk about the Big Bang, the Shuttle, or the latest fuel-cell technology. Figure it out when they talk about software. But I think I can work against my prejudices and I admit I could find a good article about software, after all. But when I find an inception such as:
>
>
>
> "Oracle's roadmap for Javas 7 and 8 shows it recognizes the world is pulling away and leaving Java with last-century concepts and ideals. Java 7 is meant to set the foundation for a cloud-friendly platform, but the real cloud-ready features won't make an appearance until Java 8 in 2013 at the earliest.
>
> While Larry and company can't be blamed for the years of stagnation suffered by both the platform and language under Sun Microsystems, the problem faced isn't that Java lacks the technology to work nicely in the cloud: the problem is, as ever, one of perception.
>

> Java is either not "enterprise" enough for cloud computing – apparently lacking the required widgets – or it's too enterprisey and therefore not cool enough to join the likes of Ruby and Python."

[Alessio Stalla]

On Jun 30, 1:38 pm, Fabrizio Giudici <fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it>
wrote:

> On 06/30/2011 01:08 PM, Phil wrote:> I think this (albeit lightweight) article on The Register adds some

> > food for thought:http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/06/30/java_misses_the_point_under_o...

>
> > I think the article's premise is right. Java has fallen too far
> > behind. Freeze the language spec at Java 7 and focus on the JVM and
> > functional languages.
>
> Sorry if I'm going to be really harsh, but it's my character. I must say
> I have a strong prejudice against general media, as I don't trust them
> when they talk about the Big Bang, the Shuttle, or the latest fuel-cell
> technology. Figure it out when they talk about software. But I think I
> can work against my prejudices and I admit I could find a good article
> about software, after all. But when I find an inception such as:
>
> "Oracle's roadmap for Javas 7 and 8 shows it recognizes the world is
> pulling away and leaving Java with last-century concepts and ideals.
> Java 7 is meant to set the foundation for a cloud-friendly platform, but
> the real cloud-ready features won't make an appearance until Java 8 in
> 2013 at the earliest.
>
> While Larry and company can't be blamed for the years of stagnation
> suffered by both the platform and language under Sun Microsystems, the
> problem faced isn't that Java lacks the technology to work nicely in the
> cloud: the problem is, as ever, one of perception.
>

> Java is either not "enterprise" enough for cloud computing apparently
> lacking the required widgets or it's too enterprisey and therefore not

> cool enough to join the likes of Ruby and Python."
>
> "The world is pulling away?" Yeah, look at Tiobe. And what the heck is
> saying about the cloud? What's a "widget" for the cloud? Sorry, I won't
> read it further.

Indeed, the article is pretty poor. What has the language to do with
the cloud to begin with? Cloud-friendly is a matter of libraries, not
language. Anyway, for example, Google App Engine supports only Python
and Java - not Ruby nor PHP nor Perl, etc. - does it mean that Python
and Java are cloud-friendly while Ruby and PHP are not? Or just that
they are popular enough?

> So, back to us. Ruby and Python and Groovy and all the dynamic languages
> are where they were a few years ago and the respective communities was
> claiming that they were going to take the world by storm. Scala is
> definitely the most interesting stuff (not by chance, is statically
> typed), but it's still 0.xx% of share. Let's see whether it grows.

Of course Java is not dead, it won't be for a long time, that's a good
thing and most importantly it's foolish to believe that if everyone
suddenly stopped using Java and turned to Clojure all problems would
magically go away. But recognizing that there's not only Java is
important. The shift of perspective from the language to the platform
is important. Granted, only very few people will use Scala or Clojure
or Groovy [1] in the next few years - the mainstream is, almost by
definition, slow to adapt - but those people will hopefully bring
innovation to the whole community. Would Java get closures if it
weren't for JavaScript, Scala, Clojure and all the other languages
with closures that run on the JVM? Would invokedynamic have happened
if it weren't for dynamic languages? Would DSLs get so much attention?
And so on...
Consider C (= Java) and Unix (= JVM): a lot of Unix software still
gets written in C, but a lot is also written in Perl, Python, Ruby
etc. and part of the strength of the main implementations of those
"scripting" languages is the ability to interoperate well with C. No-
one will ever propose to abandon C altogether, not even a C-hater like
myself. No-one will ever propose to write a Linux driver in Python.
Yet, the strength of Unix-like systems comes at least in part from
software written in those languages. I expect the same thing will
slowly happen with Java and the JVM, too.

[1] not speaking of, shameless plug, ABCL!

> So, what are we talking about?
>
> And, pardon me, why a supposedly objective and scientifically-attituded
> community should still comment Gosling's points as he's a sort of prophet?
>
> Coming to Groovy, since we're talking about personal experience. It has
> been the first language I started seriously studying and practicing a
> couple of years ago, not for replacing Java but because I was curious to
> see whether it could solve some DSL-like tasks. For me it has been a
> total delusion. Useless even in parts that it was supposed to be
> helpful. At present time only a few lines of Groovy survive in a Maven
> plugin for building an Android project, but just because I didn't find
> the time to replace it with a simpler solution.

I know this is OT, but can you comment on what deluded you the most
about Groovy? I never used it, mind you, but it's interesting to hear
opinions.

Alessio

[Casper Bang]

> Java is either not "enterprise" enough for cloud computing apparently
> lacking the required widgets or it's too enterprisey and therefore not

> cool enough to join the likes of Ruby and Python."

You're missing an important point however. The philosophy of Java has
always been, and still is, one language+library to rule them all. I
mean, look at the gigantic and clunky mandatory runtime and how bloody
hard it is to inter-operate with the underlying operating system and
other applications. JNI is a freaking nighmare!

Pragmatists have long since realized that instead of being on the
never ending search for the lowest-common denominator that satisfies
everyone, perhaps it's smarter and easier to embrace the native
platform rather than ignoring it, and give the developer easy access
to pick and choose. Languages like Ruby, Perl, Python, JavaScript and
C are all capable of that. Neither Chrome, Firefox, Pacasa, Google
Earth or any other large known application (other than IDE's) are Java
based.

> "The world is pulling away?" Yeah, look at Tiobe. And what the heck is
> saying about the cloud? What's a "widget" for the cloud? Sorry, I won't
> read it further.

Tiobe is flawed though and tells more about enterprise lock-in than
popularity (that is, what a developer would use in her own free time).
Also, with 500.000 Android phones shipping daily, it's obviously a
huge catalyst for Java on Tiobe's index, even if Android is not not
[enterprise] Java.

Duke is dead and the captain steering the Java boat is pretty much
lost. It's drifting based on existing momentum but is destined to fall
below C soon even on Tiobe. C'est la vie.

[Mario Fusco]

> Neither do I take the James Gosling comment as gospel. After all, by itself it is just a statement about one person's current point of view. A bit like me saying "I've really gone off my Ford Focus". It might be true for him, it doesn't mean it applies to everybody. My neighbour loves her new Focus, after all.

Not really. It's more similar to Henry Ford saying: "I couldn't care
less of the Model T"

[Kevin Wright]

On 30 June 2011 14:30, Casper Bang <caspe...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Java is either not "enterprise" enough for cloud computing apparently
> lacking the required widgets or it's too enterprisey and therefore not
> cool enough to join the likes of Ruby and Python."

You're missing an important point however. The philosophy of Java has
always been, and still is, one language+library to rule them all. I
mean, look at the gigantic and clunky mandatory runtime and how bloody
hard it is to inter-operate with the underlying operating system and
other applications. JNI is a freaking nighmare!

It's changing slowly... invokedynamic was a clear step in the right direction, and future modularisation efforts (jigsaw) should nicely carve up that monolith.  As a platform, Java still has plenty of potential.

 

Pragmatists have long since realized that instead of being on the
never ending search for the lowest-common denominator that satisfies
everyone, perhaps it's smarter and easier to embrace the native
platform rather than ignoring it, and give the developer easy access
to pick and choose. Languages like Ruby, Perl, Python, JavaScript and
C are all capable of that. Neither Chrome, Firefox, Pacasa, Google
Earth or any other large known application (other than IDE's) are Java
based.

Isn't it slightly underhanded to conflate JNI with GUI design?  After all, it's only swing that actively tries to avoid any native functionality. Awt is completely native (though it does use the lowest common subset, as you state).  Of course, there's always SWT...

 

This point would be far more valid if made with regards to file system support, an area where Java is thankfully going to make a massive improvement following the release of NIO.2

> "The world is pulling away?" Yeah, look at Tiobe. And what the heck is
> saying about the cloud? What's a "widget" for the cloud? Sorry, I won't
> read it further.

Tiobe is flawed though and tells more about enterprise lock-in than
popularity (that is, what a developer would use in her own free time).
Also, with 500.000 Android phones shipping daily, it's obviously a
huge catalyst for Java on Tiobe's index, even if Android is not not
[enterprise] Java.

Duke is dead and the captain steering the Java boat is pretty much
lost. It's drifting based on existing momentum but is destined to fall
below C soon even on Tiobe. C'est la vie.

I don't care where Java drops on Tiobe.  After all, it's flawed... 

[Casper Bang]

> Isn't it slightly underhanded to conflate JNI with GUI design?  After all,
> it's only swing that actively tries to avoid any native functionality.

That's an analogy made by you though. The philosophy is apparent
throughout the Java language itself, Swing is after all just a
library. My frame of reference would be C#, where you can import a
libc method with a single line of code, call into Visual Basic,
Python, Ruby etc.

[Ricky Clarkson]

Can you mix languages within a single .NET assembly?

[Alessio Stalla]

You can in Java too, with JNA.

> call into Visual Basic, Python, Ruby etc.

well except for Visual Basic, of course, we have Jython, JRuby, Rhino
etc. and a standard API to talk to them (JSR-223, which is not
optimal, but at least it's there).
Embracing the underlying platform means much more than interfacing
with C. It means following certain conventions (e.g. where to put
stuff in the file system), playing nice with the rest of the platform,
etc. but also being tied to that platform. Java has chosen a certain
trade-off; the JVM is not a typical Unix application nor a typical
Windows application. In that vein it's similar to most Lisp or
Smalltalk implementations, that build a sort of closed universe with
its rules and few contact points with the outside world. The
"scripting language" philosophy it at the other end of the spectrum;
it makes certain things easier and other things harder.

[Casper Bang]

Officially no, you are expected to link into separate assemblies. But
supposedly ILMerge (Microsoft official) or Cecil (open source) will
help out if you desire one single assembly.

[ranjith]

If you read the complete story , he also said
"Java happens to be a really good language for a broad spectrum of
topics."

- and the focus to be on the VM -
Though James Gosling may be harbouring his secret soft corners for the
language,
why should he care when he has very little or no say all together?

It is up to the community and Oracle to care about

I think I could hardly care less for the whole news..!

On Jun 30, 2:11 am, Mario Fusco <mario.fu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "Most people talk about Java the language, and this may sound odd
> coming from me, but I could hardly care less."  - James Gosling, TSSJS
> 2011
>

> http://www.theserverside.com/news/2240037412/James-Gosling-Says-He-Do...
>
> Any comments?

[Alexey Zinger]

As always, the full context is important.  He wasn't saying he didn't care about Java the language, just that the JVM is a much bigger factor that drives many other things forward, such as language development.  Not a hard sentiment to agree with.

 

Alexey
2001 Honda CBR600F4i (CCS)
1998 Honda RS125 (CCS)
2002 Suzuki Bandit 1200S
http://weatherblackjack.appspot.com
http://azinger.blogspot.com
http://webgal.sourceforge.net/
http://bsheet.sourceforge.net
http://wcollage.sourceforge.net

---

From: Mario Fusco <mario...@gmail.com>
To: The Java Posse <java...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 2:11 AM
Subject: [The Java Posse] James Gosling Says He Doesn't Care About Java

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Java Posse" group.
To post to this group, send email to java...@googlegroups.com.

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsub...@googlegroups.com.

[clay]

On Jun 30, 8:30 am, Casper Bang <casper.b...@gmail.com> wrote:

First, you suggest that Java is only hanging on due to lock-in and
that it lacks genuine developer interest. You could similarly say that
developers use the HTTP protocol because of "lock-in" rather than
being genuinely passionate about the protocol itself. Developers
aren't passionate about the specifics of Java's language syntax. But
they are passionate about cloud computing, big data, advanced parallel
computing paradigms, alternative programming languages, NLP, data
mining, machine learning, and tons of other areas that have very
vibrant and passionate communities where the Java ecosystem and tech
stack plays a prominent role. A lot of these guys actually hate Java
the language and Oracle, but the overall Java ecosystem often provides
the most attractive fit.

> Neither Chrome, Firefox, Pacasa, Google
> Earth or any other large known application (other than IDE's) are Java
> based.

Now this is just flat out trolling. You don't think people have built
big applications around Java Hadoop and Hive and Pig and Cassandra?
You don't think there are large, complex, and successful scientific
and server side web apps built in Java? Even on the client, you have
things like Minecraft and Android.

[Casper Bang]

> First, you suggest that Java is only hanging on due to lock-in and
> that it lacks genuine developer interest. You could similarly say that
> developers use the HTTP protocol because of "lock-in" rather than
> being genuinely passionate about the protocol itself.

You're confusing standards with tools.

> Developers
> aren't passionate about the specifics of Java's language syntax. But
> they are passionate about cloud computing, big data, advanced parallel
> computing paradigms, alternative programming languages, NLP, data
> mining, machine learning, and tons of other areas that have very
> vibrant and passionate communities where the Java ecosystem and tech
> stack plays a prominent role.

Of course it does. When have I said it doesn't?

> You don't think there are large, complex, and successful scientific
> and server side web apps built in Java? Even on the client, you have
> things like Minecraft and Android.

Sure I do, again when have I said otherwise? But large general purpose
end-user applications are rare at best. Android can not be used as an
argument here, it is legally and technically not Java (JSE, JME or
JEE) as it's a completely different VM and runtime environment. And
even on Android, you have to resort to C and Renderscript to do push
the performance envelope.

[Cédric Beust ♔]

On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 11:23 PM, Casper Bang <caspe...@gmail.com> wrote:

Android can not be used as an
argument here,

It depends what the argument is, and I confess being confused about what we are discussing.

It's pretty obvious to me that Android has brought a lot of new developers to Java, and I'm not saying this just based on the number of Android Java beginners who pop in on #java on a daily basis.

-- 

Cédric

[Jon Kiparsky]

If you're distinguishing between java the language and java the jvm - as we seem to be here - then what you write when you make an android app looks a lot like java the language.
That seems to suggest to me that people writing for the android platform does in fact represent a lot of people writing Java, which seems like it was the point at issue here.
I've never written anything for that platform, so perhaps I'm missing something, but that's how it looks to me.

I'm really not sure what the controversy is meant to be over, but if there's an argument that depends on ruling out android programmers as java users to establish that java is a moribund language, I don't think I'm convinced of either the premise or the conclusion. So I agree with Cedric: I'm confused.

2011/7/1 Cédric Beust ♔ <ced...@beust.com>

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Java Posse" group.
To post to this group, send email to java...@googlegroups.com.

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+...@googlegroups.com.

[clay]

On Jul 1, 1:23 am, Casper Bang <casper.b...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Sure I do, again when have I said otherwise?

Um, in your first post you said:

> Neither Chrome, Firefox, Pacasa, Google
> Earth or any other large known application (other than IDE's) are Java
> based.

That statement is flat out wrong.

Now, you're adding the qualification that you only mean "end user"
apps. And, of course, tons of major "end user" web sites are written
in Java technologies, but I will infer you also mean "client-side
Java". And then you are still ruling out Android... And then there is
still the one off success of Minecraft.

Also, Android obviously uses a completely separate runtime, but
Android app development generally has a high overlap with Java
technologies and the Java ecosystem. Obviously, Java the language is
used, but you can use other JVM languages like Scala, you have limited
use of other Java libraries, you generally use Java-centric IDEs and
build tools and JVM compilers and intermediary JVM classfiles. The
runtime is a major difference from traditional Java development, but
the Java technology ecosystem plays a large role.

Obviously, there are a lot of software areas where Java related tools
haven't been successful and I wouldn't choose them: the predominant
client toolset for end user web apps is HTML5/JavaScript and maybe
Flash. And for games, particularly high performance 3D stuff, it's
generally C, OpenGL, and LUA for scripting. Python and Haskell have
their niches in academic work. And Apple's dev chain is the major
toolset for iOS development. And Microsoft owns a large piece of the
enterprise space, back office work, and small ISV integration type
shops.

As for the doom and gloom comments about Java: I really don't see it.
I'd say Java, C, and Python are similar in that a lot of amazing work
is happening in those tool spaces, even if the core languages aren't
terribly exciting.

[robogeek]

On Jun 30, 6:30 am, Casper Bang <casper.b...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You're missing an important point however. The philosophy of Java has
> always been, and still is, one language+library to rule them all. I
> mean, look at the gigantic and clunky mandatory runtime and how bloody
> hard it is to inter-operate with the underlying operating system and
> other applications. JNI is a freaking nighmare!
>
> Pragmatists have long since realized that instead of being on the
> never ending search for the lowest-common denominator that satisfies
> everyone, perhaps it's smarter and easier to embrace the native
> platform rather than ignoring it, and give the developer easy access
> to pick and choose. Languages like Ruby, Perl, Python, JavaScript and
> C are all capable of that. Neither Chrome, Firefox, Pacasa, Google
> Earth or any other large known application (other than IDE's) are Java
> based.

Uh.. I'm not convinced the philosophy was "one language+library" ...
One point to remember is that the lawsuit against Microsoft hinged on
JNI as one of the interfaces into the Java platform, a key part of the
Java platform, and compatibility-as-tested-by-JCK includes JNI. The
other point is that for years now it's been possible to run multiple
languages on top of the JVM. The last point is that the JVM doesn't
execute "language", it executes "byte codes".

Hence the proper way to make your statement is "the philosophy of Java
has always been, and still is, one byte-code-execution-design+library
to rule them all"

That's where I was going to stop but then I noticed you're defining
success in terms of whether a large desktop GUI application has been
developed with a given platform. But in the sentence before you
suggest "languages like Ruby, Perl, .." .. Are there large desktop GUI
applications written in Ruby or JavaScript? Also, is desktop GUI
applications properly the future of software ?? It seems to me that
browser based applications are taking over.

Also there could be licensing/legal issues which interfered with
Google, Apple, Mozilla, etc developing their prominent desktop GUI
applications in Java. The existence of IDE's like Netbeans and the
others demonstrate that Java can be a good platform for desktop GUI
applications. But Google, by subverting the Java ecosystem with a not-
quite-Java-platform named Android, demonstrates they couldn't abide by
the Java license as the basis of developing an application they intend
to distribute widely. And they've demonstrated a willingness to
invest in alternatives to Java.

In the case of Apple (who could have developed Safari in Java) ..
well, Steve Jobs and his opinion of Java ..

Mozilla - they need to distribute under an open source license - I
attended a Mozilla Developer Day back in ?2004? and overheard someone
talking about being tired of waiting for Sun to free up Java,
and ..etc..

> Duke is dead and the captain steering the Java boat is pretty much
> lost. It's drifting based on existing momentum but is destined to fall
> below C soon even on Tiobe. C'est la vie.

We at Sun (I was there for 10+ years) failed to make Java a compelling
platform for anything but server side applications. And even there --
with my experience of working with Node.js over the last 6 months,
there are up-and-coming alternatives that could render Java moot for
server side stuff.

When some things die they linger for years and some people continue
thinking of the thing as still alive. Aren't there still people
writing new COBOL?


+ David Herron
http://davidherron.com
http://www.packtpub.com/node-javascript-web-development/book

[clay]

It's ridiculous to say that Java is dead.

When I glance at the Strange Loop conference, Java ecosystem tools are
quite prevalent: Scala is extremely popular, Clojure is popular as
well, Akka is a Scala/Java lib that has some brilliant ideas, neo4j is
very exciting it's attacking some really interesting problems and has
a lot of momentum, and Android is prevalent on the client side. There
is also lots of non-Java tools and languages that are amazing and many
brilliant toolset-agnostic concepts.

If you are excited about the Strange Loop type stuff, Java (the
ecosystem) is connected to a lot of that and is quite vibrant. If you
have some weird militant hatred for Java, sure there are great
alternatives.

Java the language itself has stagnated... I'd argue that the Python
language isn't particularly interesting by itself, although many of
the libraries that are being built within the Python space are
absolutely amazing and cutting edge.

[Jon Kiparsky]

Thinking about this, I think I'm curious to know what exactly is meant when someone says a language is "dead". What are some "dead" languages, besides java? Would C be considered "dead"? How about FORTRAN? BASIC? Pascal? PL/1? Algol?

To me, the use of a term like "dead" suggests a life cycle, and I'd say Java, like C, is "mature" but far from dead. It's stopped growing, but that's a good thing - at some point, continued physical growth is more like cancer than development. It's still learning new tricks - people continue to add libraries and uses - and it's still a productive citizen - at least, it's in use all around me. Pascal, you might say, is in retirement. It doesn't do a lot these days, but it sits around telling the kids how it used to do things. BASIC is senescent - it has returned to its childhood, and seems to intend to stay there for the rest of its days. PL/1, I suppose is dead, and I don't know that it's very much missed. 

This doesn't mean that Java is or should want to be the final word in languages. There are always new children coming along, and with any luck they grow up and become mature and productive citizens, like Python seems to have done. Clojure, we might call a childish language. It's still got a lot to learn, but it shows great promise. Someday, it too will be the language that remembers its former vigor and vitality and contemplates its own mortality - but not yet, it'll say. It'll still have a lot to offer, and it'll shrug its shoulders and take out the garbage and get down to another day's work. All that's far in the future, though - at least six months off, maybe eight. 

[Jeb Beich]

I agree. To me, C# seems to be a case of growth beyond what is
productive for a language. It's getting more and more of the
functional qualities that attract many of us to newer languages, yet
clings to the C-like syntax of the past. Then it's also got the query
expression syntax as well. It's starting to look more like a
bodybuilder on steroids rather than an Adonis:)

--
Jeb Beich
http://www.jebbeich.com

[Cédric Beust ♔]

On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 11:56 AM, clay <clayt...@gmail.com> wrote:

It's ridiculous to say that Java is dead.

When I glance at the Strange Loop conference, Java ecosystem tools are
quite prevalent: Scala is extremely popular, Clojure is popular as
well, Akka is a Scala/Java lib that has some brilliant ideas, neo4j is
very exciting it's attacking some really interesting problems and has
a lot of momentum, and Android is prevalent on the client side.

I certainly agree that Java is alive and well, and I would caution against using conferences -- especially bleeding edge conferences such as Strange Loop (note: that's not a knock against Strange Loop, which I think is an awesome conference) -- to assess the vitality of (or lack thereof) a technology.

By definition, the presentations you see in these conferences are experimental topics. At best, they can give you a sense for potential momentum, or an idea of where academia and tinkerers are experimenting with.

In my opinion, the best way to find out if a technology is healthy, niche or dying is a combination of TIOBE and job boards, such as Dice, Monster, LinkedIn, etc...

-- 

Cédric

[clay]

On Jul 1, 2:20 pm, Jon Kiparsky <jon.kipar...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thinking about this, I think I'm curious to know what exactly is meant when
> someone says a language is "dead".

I'd suggest the vocabulary of growth (Scala), mature (still useful
like XML or C), or obsolete (not practically used like Pascal)

On Jul 1, 2:30 pm, Cédric Beust ♔ <ced...@beust.com> wrote:
> By definition, the presentations you see in these conferences are
> experimental topics. At best, they can give you a sense for potential
> momentum, or an idea of where academia and tinkerers are experimenting with.
>
> In my opinion, the best way to find out if a technology is healthy, niche or
> dying is a combination of TIOBE and job boards, such as Dice, Monster,
> LinkedIn, etc...

This is exactly the opposite of what Casper said. I guess it depends
on your purpose, whether you are exploring an intellectual interest,
or doing something more practically focused on industry.

[Josh Berry]

I go with more of how it makes me feel when I'm writing it. :) I
definitely feel dead when I'm jumping through some of the hoops that
Java requires. Especially now that I understand just how many there
are.

Similarly, I used to feel dirty deploying asp pages.

[Reinier Zwitserloot]

The idea that java "stopped growing", busied by a number of people in this thread seems nuts to me. In what form could that statement possibly be true? This is all I can come up with, and java rolls "not dead yet - or in fact, at all" on all accounts:

(A) Language itself. Nope, JDK8 is in full swing and is set to bring closures, which as far as a language changes go, is a whopper.

(B) Core Libraries. Nope. The core libraries are still getting major new releases, such as the Objects utility class and newnewIO.

(C) Developer base. Nope. Java is the most popular language for active development (i.e. maintaining projects that someone ought to take out back and put out of its misery doesn't count - java still the most popular language worldwide).

(D) Community. Nope. Devoxx in particular is selling out faster this year around than any other year, the CFP netted more papers than any other year.

(E) Third party libraries. Nope. Everything from build systems to web frameworks to entirely new GUI stacks are not just making major strides in new functionality, but entirely new libraries in those spaces are being built or have been recently released.

So, and please get a little offended when I say this: You're all just completely full of it. "Java is (dead / stable / on its last legs)" is a nonsensical thing to say.

[clay]

On Jul 6, 2:51 am, Reinier Zwitserloot <reini...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The idea that java "stopped growing", busied by a number of people in this
> thread seems nuts to me. In what form could that statement possibly be true?

Java the Flash-like web plugin is dead in terms of mass market
consumer adoption along with Silverlight. I don't see either of those
making a come back. Both still have a life in terms of niche use
workstation apps and limited market stuff.

For games devlopment outside of Android (which I consider mostly in
the Java eocsystem), Java is dead, Minecraft aside. The JVM could
potentially be a great fit for PC game development. But the 3D APIs
are a mess, and the issue of deploying JVM software to consumers is
still a mess.

Overall, I completely agree that the Java ecosystem is thriving in
other areas like server side software and all kinds of more academic
software applications.