Just to complete the picture, the rest is using C++, RoR, and Groovy/Grails. Actually we have one team, which is RoR top to bottom, and another team doing a full product in Grails. Nevertheless, almost all of the core business logic is using a Java on Spring/Jetty/Tomcat stack.
The 100% Mac is the development environment of all of the engineers in LinkedIn (i.e. desktops and laptops). Keep the Apple talk in the podcast :-)
Though I respect Joel Spolsky, I strongly disagree to the stuff he said about Macs in his StackOverflow podcast. The Macs are definitely not just luxury, they are a superior development machines. Most of the engineers which come to work here are using Macs for the first time as java workstations, and you can hear this statement again and again.
Care to qualify that subjective marketing statement a little... In
what sense are they superior? What can you do on a Mac that you can
not do on no-nonsence Ubuntu box? I find it's usually the languages
and the tools rather than the machine which makes a difference during
development.
/Casper
On 18 Jun., 08:11, "Eishay Smith" <eis...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Just to complete the picture, the rest is using C++, RoR, and Groovy/Grails.
> Actually we have one team, which is RoR top to bottom, and another team
> doing a full product in Grails.
> Nevertheless, almost all of the core business logic is using a Java on
> Spring/Jetty/Tomcat stack.
> The 100% Mac is the development environment of all of the engineers in
> LinkedIn (i.e. desktops and laptops).
> Keep the Apple talk in the podcast :-)
> Though I respect Joel Spolsky, I strongly disagree to the stuff he said
> about Macs in his StackOverflow podcast.
> The Macs are definitely not just luxury, they are a superior development
> machines.
> Most of the engineers which come to work here are using Macs for the first
> time as java workstations, and you can hear this statement again and again.
I have to agree with Eishay that Macs (OSX) are superior codestations. Although I've only been actually _working_ as a developer for about 7 years, I have atleast 12 years experience of developing on windows (C/C++/Java),
I made the permanent switch to OSX/MacBook Pro a couple of months ago and I would _never_ go back.
Straight out of the box it just much more competent than Windows (2k/Xp/Vista), and when you've got your dev-environment set-up you're just ready to actually get some work done.
Compared to Ubuntu it's more polished (I've used Ubuntu 6 and 7) and the features work OOTB instead of having to fight with drivers and utilities (never got the smartcard-reader on my last laptop to work from Ubuntu)
And from a user-perspective, things are noticably more inuitive on OSX than on Windows/Ubuntu.
But ultimately its about having the possibility to use the tools that you are most productive with, and that you get to enjoy your work.
On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 10:29 AM, Casper Bang <casper.b...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > they are a superior development machines.
> Care to qualify that subjective marketing statement a little... In > what sense are they superior? What can you do on a Mac that you can > not do on no-nonsence Ubuntu box? I find it's usually the languages > and the tools rather than the machine which makes a difference during > development.
> /Casper
> On 18 Jun., 08:11, "Eishay Smith" <eis...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Just to complete the picture, the rest is using C++, RoR, and > Groovy/Grails. > > Actually we have one team, which is RoR top to bottom, and another team > > doing a full product in Grails. > > Nevertheless, almost all of the core business logic is using a Java on > > Spring/Jetty/Tomcat stack.
> > The 100% Mac is the development environment of all of the engineers in > > LinkedIn (i.e. desktops and laptops). > > Keep the Apple talk in the podcast :-)
> > Though I respect Joel Spolsky, I strongly disagree to the stuff he said > > about Macs in his StackOverflow podcast. > > The Macs are definitely not just luxury, they are a superior development > > machines. > > Most of the engineers which come to work here are using Macs for the > first > > time as java workstations, and you can hear this statement again and > again.
Well, as of my last attempt at Ubuntu about 18 months ago (before I
switched to apple)
1. My wireless networking works flawlessly (Took a competent Linux
admin (not me) about 1/2 a day to get it working (and even then, not
all the time)
2. My power/thermal control works flawlessly (Poor battery life +
overheating)
3. Auto-updates don't kill my windowing env (One poisonous auto-update
killed my machine for a day)
4. My wireless 3G broadband adapter 'just works'
Everybody's milage varies - besides writing code I also enjoy editing
home videos of my son, syncing my ipod, managing my family photos,
playing around in photoshop etc etc - Apple is a platform that gives
me all of that in an efficient, reliable and powerful platform - and I
don't have to spend hours stuffing around to get it working.
Also, I think my black MacBook looks kinda sexy :)
On Jun 18, 6:29 pm, Casper Bang <casper.b...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Care to qualify that subjective marketing statement a little... In
> what sense are they superior? What can you do on a Mac that you can
> not do on no-nonsence Ubuntu box? I find it's usually the languages
> and the tools rather than the machine which makes a difference during
> development.
> /Casper
> On 18 Jun., 08:11, "Eishay Smith" <eis...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Just to complete the picture, the rest is using C++, RoR, and Groovy/Grails.
> > Actually we have one team, which is RoR top to bottom, and another team
> > doing a full product in Grails.
> > Nevertheless, almost all of the core business logic is using a Java on
> > Spring/Jetty/Tomcat stack.
> > The 100% Mac is the development environment of all of the engineers in
> > LinkedIn (i.e. desktops and laptops).
> > Keep the Apple talk in the podcast :-)
> > Though I respect Joel Spolsky, I strongly disagree to the stuff he said
> > about Macs in his StackOverflow podcast.
> > The Macs are definitely not just luxury, they are a superior development
> > machines.
> > Most of the engineers which come to work here are using Macs for the first
> > time as java workstations, and you can hear this statement again and again.
Casper: Hardware considerations, and hardware/os integration issues.
Close your notebook and 'just' have it go to sleep properly, no matter
what you were doing. A high quality keyboard. Two-finger scrolling
trough code. The ability to buy something in a store or mail order it,
open it up, install just the exact tools you need, and get going,
without having to customize a truckload.
Ubuntu is sneaking closer every day though, and at this point the
difference is marginal, especially if you run ubuntu on apple
hardware. It's a real shame other notebook manufacturers are producing
such turds. Apple is getting a massive free ride simply because no one
to date even makes a notebook with a halfway decent keyboard.
Possibly, part of the mac/apple hype is simply a grassroots effort to
convince other notebook manufacturers that going for a nice list of
specs plus a low price is just not how you should be doing business
anymore. You can't put 'feel of the keyboard' or 'proper software/
hardware integration' and 'no need to reinstall an OS to remove all
the crap we've foisted on it' in the spec list, but those are all far
more important than 0.2 more Ghz, or 40GB more on the hard drive.
On Jun 18, 10:29 am, Casper Bang <casper.b...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Care to qualify that subjective marketing statement a little... In
> what sense are they superior? What can you do on a Mac that you can
> not do on no-nonsence Ubuntu box? I find it's usually the languages
> and the tools rather than the machine which makes a difference during
> development.
> /Casper
> On 18 Jun., 08:11, "Eishay Smith" <eis...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Just to complete the picture, the rest is using C++, RoR, and Groovy/Grails.
> > Actually we have one team, which is RoR top to bottom, and another team
> > doing a full product in Grails.
> > Nevertheless, almost all of the core business logic is using a Java on
> > Spring/Jetty/Tomcat stack.
> > The 100% Mac is the development environment of all of the engineers in
> > LinkedIn (i.e. desktops and laptops).
> > Keep the Apple talk in the podcast :-)
> > Though I respect Joel Spolsky, I strongly disagree to the stuff he said
> > about Macs in his StackOverflow podcast.
> > The Macs are definitely not just luxury, they are a superior development
> > machines.
> > Most of the engineers which come to work here are using Macs for the first
> > time as java workstations, and you can hear this statement again and again.
I own a Dell laptop and the only thing missing from your list is the
two finger scrolling. Not sure if it could handle it (hardware wise),
but I don't really need it anyways -- I mean 99%+ of the time I have a
mouse attached anyways.
PS: In my experience setting up Ubuntu is a breeze.
With kind regards
Ben
On 18 Jun., 13:55, Reinier Zwitserloot <reini...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Casper: Hardware considerations, and hardware/os integration issues.
> Close your notebook and 'just' have it go to sleep properly, no matter
> what you were doing. A high quality keyboard. Two-finger scrolling
> trough code. The ability to buy something in a store or mail order it,
> open it up, install just the exact tools you need, and get going,
> without having to customize a truckload.
> Ubuntu is sneaking closer every day though, and at this point the
> difference is marginal, especially if you run ubuntu on apple
> hardware. It's a real shame other notebook manufacturers are producing
> such turds. Apple is getting a massive free ride simply because no one
> to date even makes a notebook with a halfway decent keyboard.
> Possibly, part of the mac/apple hype is simply a grassroots effort to
> convince other notebook manufacturers that going for a nice list of
> specs plus a low price is just not how you should be doing business
> anymore. You can't put 'feel of the keyboard' or 'proper software/
> hardware integration' and 'no need to reinstall an OS to remove all
> the crap we've foisted on it' in the spec list, but those are all far
> more important than 0.2 more Ghz, or 40GB more on the hard drive.
> On Jun 18, 10:29 am, Casper Bang <casper.b...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > they are a superior development machines.
> > Care to qualify that subjective marketing statement a little... In
> > what sense are they superior? What can you do on a Mac that you can
> > not do on no-nonsence Ubuntu box? I find it's usually the languages
> > and the tools rather than the machine which makes a difference during
> > development.
> > /Casper
> > On 18 Jun., 08:11, "Eishay Smith" <eis...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Just to complete the picture, the rest is using C++, RoR, and Groovy/Grails.
> > > Actually we have one team, which is RoR top to bottom, and another team
> > > doing a full product in Grails.
> > > Nevertheless, almost all of the core business logic is using a Java on
> > > Spring/Jetty/Tomcat stack.
> > > The 100% Mac is the development environment of all of the engineers in
> > > LinkedIn (i.e. desktops and laptops).
> > > Keep the Apple talk in the podcast :-)
> > > Though I respect Joel Spolsky, I strongly disagree to the stuff he said
> > > about Macs in his StackOverflow podcast.
> > > The Macs are definitely not just luxury, they are a superior development
> > > machines.
> > > Most of the engineers which come to work here are using Macs for the first
> > > time as java workstations, and you can hear this statement again and again.
@Casper: These are good questions, which I don't have a definite answer to. The language indeed maters a lot, its the material you do your product with. The tools (IDE, OS, Shell ...) are probably more of a subject to individual taste.
Quality of a tool is something that is hard to measure. You can take two sets of tools that do the same functions with the same empiric parameters but one is clearly better then the other. The proof is simple, go to tour favorite construction tools shop and see the price and perceived quality difference for tools that have the same power and size. Last time I did that and asked the expert why one is better, he told me that its just is :-)
We can start a nice philosophical discussion here, but at the end I think you must try it for yourself and only then you'll understand. The answer is in the small details that eventually do matter. I'm not smart enough to say why Mac is better (maybe quicksilver, iTerm, slick integration between applications, FreeBSD core...), but I belive that eventually it is.
I want through the Windows, Ubuntu and Mac, used each for several years. I would argue that most the people with similar experience would have similar conclusions.
On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 1:29 AM, Casper Bang <casper.b...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > they are a superior development machines.
> Care to qualify that subjective marketing statement a little... In > what sense are they superior? What can you do on a Mac that you can > not do on no-nonsence Ubuntu box? I find it's usually the languages > and the tools rather than the machine which makes a difference during > development.
> /Casper
> On 18 Jun., 08:11, "Eishay Smith" <eis...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Just to complete the picture, the rest is using C++, RoR, and > Groovy/Grails. > > Actually we have one team, which is RoR top to bottom, and another team > > doing a full product in Grails. > > Nevertheless, almost all of the core business logic is using a Java on > > Spring/Jetty/Tomcat stack.
> > The 100% Mac is the development environment of all of the engineers in > > LinkedIn (i.e. desktops and laptops). > > Keep the Apple talk in the podcast :-)
> > Though I respect Joel Spolsky, I strongly disagree to the stuff he said > > about Macs in his StackOverflow podcast. > > The Macs are definitely not just luxury, they are a superior development > > machines. > > Most of the engineers which come to work here are using Macs for the > first > > time as java workstations, and you can hear this statement again and > again.
Thanks for clarifying Eishay. Clearly Apple is very good at picking
quality components and pushing new aesthetic boundaries, and that's
good for all of us as consumers. What scares me is the lock down
issues and "milk-the-cow" policies. Colleagues with Apple computers
have to pay twice as much for a RAM upgrade, they can't just plug in
arbitrary hardware and for 1½ year were unable to run some of our
software because it's written for Java 6.
So while I am sure I could be an Apple fan boy too, I am just not sure
I am ready to trade in my freedom. If I cared only about superior
development platform, I would've stayed on Windows and had my fun in a
language containing all the features which is cause for so much
controversy and confusion in Java these days.
/Casper
On Jun 18, 8:35 pm, "Eishay Smith" <eis...@gmail.com> wrote:
> @Casper: These are good questions, which I don't have a definite answer to.
> The language indeed maters a lot, its the material you do your product with.
> The tools (IDE, OS, Shell ...) are probably more of a subject to individual
> taste.
> Quality of a tool is something that is hard to measure. You can take two
> sets of tools that do the same functions with the same empiric parameters
> but one is clearly better then the other. The proof is simple, go to tour
> favorite construction tools shop and see the price and perceived quality
> difference for tools that have the same power and size. Last time I did that
> and asked the expert why one is better, he told me that its just is :-)
> We can start a nice philosophical discussion here, but at the end I think
> you must try it for yourself and only then you'll understand. The answer is
> in the small details that eventually do matter. I'm not smart enough to say
> why Mac is better (maybe quicksilver, iTerm, slick integration between
> applications, FreeBSD core...), but I belive that eventually it is.
> I want through the Windows, Ubuntu and Mac, used each for several years.
> I would argue that most the people with similar experience would have
> similar conclusions.
> Eishay
> On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 1:29 AM, Casper Bang <casper.b...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > they are a superior development machines.
> > Care to qualify that subjective marketing statement a little... In
> > what sense are they superior? What can you do on a Mac that you can
> > not do on no-nonsence Ubuntu box? I find it's usually the languages
> > and the tools rather than the machine which makes a difference during
> > development.
> > /Casper
> > On 18 Jun., 08:11, "Eishay Smith" <eis...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Just to complete the picture, the rest is using C++, RoR, and
> > Groovy/Grails.
> > > Actually we have one team, which is RoR top to bottom, and another team
> > > doing a full product in Grails.
> > > Nevertheless, almost all of the core business logic is using a Java on
> > > Spring/Jetty/Tomcat stack.
> > > The 100% Mac is the development environment of all of the engineers in
> > > LinkedIn (i.e. desktops and laptops).
> > > Keep the Apple talk in the podcast :-)
> > > Though I respect Joel Spolsky, I strongly disagree to the stuff he said
> > > about Macs in his StackOverflow podcast.
> > > The Macs are definitely not just luxury, they are a superior development
> > > machines.
> > > Most of the engineers which come to work here are using Macs for the
> > first
> > > time as java workstations, and you can hear this statement again and
> > again.
On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 9:22 PM, Casper Bang <casper.b...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks for clarifying Eishay. Clearly Apple is very good at picking > quality components and pushing new aesthetic boundaries, and that's > good for all of us as consumers. What scares me is the lock down > issues and "milk-the-cow" policies. Colleagues with Apple computers > have to pay twice as much for a RAM upgrade, they can't just plug in > arbitrary hardware and for 1½ year were unable to run some of our > software because it's written for Java 6.
They were unable to buy a DDR2 SODIMM? I can offer to instruct them at a nominal fee.... ;)
> So while I am sure I could be an Apple fan boy too, I am just not sure > I am ready to trade in my freedom. If I cared only about superior > development platform, I would've stayed on Windows and had my fun in a > language containing all the features which is cause for so much > controversy and confusion in Java these days.
> /Casper
> On Jun 18, 8:35 pm, "Eishay Smith" <eis...@gmail.com> wrote: > > @Casper: These are good questions, which I don't have a definite answer > to. > > The language indeed maters a lot, its the material you do your product > with. > > The tools (IDE, OS, Shell ...) are probably more of a subject to > individual > > taste.
> > Quality of a tool is something that is hard to measure. You can take two > > sets of tools that do the same functions with the same empiric parameters > > but one is clearly better then the other. The proof is simple, go to tour > > favorite construction tools shop and see the price and perceived quality > > difference for tools that have the same power and size. Last time I did > that > > and asked the expert why one is better, he told me that its just is :-)
> > We can start a nice philosophical discussion here, but at the end I think > > you must try it for yourself and only then you'll understand. The answer > is > > in the small details that eventually do matter. I'm not smart enough to > say > > why Mac is better (maybe quicksilver, iTerm, slick integration between > > applications, FreeBSD core...), but I belive that eventually it is.
> > I want through the Windows, Ubuntu and Mac, used each for several years. > > I would argue that most the people with similar experience would have > > similar conclusions.
> > Eishay
> > On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 1:29 AM, Casper Bang <casper.b...@gmail.com> > wrote:
> > > > they are a superior development machines.
> > > Care to qualify that subjective marketing statement a little... In > > > what sense are they superior? What can you do on a Mac that you can > > > not do on no-nonsence Ubuntu box? I find it's usually the languages > > > and the tools rather than the machine which makes a difference during > > > development.
> > > /Casper
> > > On 18 Jun., 08:11, "Eishay Smith" <eis...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Just to complete the picture, the rest is using C++, RoR, and > > > Groovy/Grails. > > > > Actually we have one team, which is RoR top to bottom, and another > team > > > > doing a full product in Grails. > > > > Nevertheless, almost all of the core business logic is using a Java > on > > > > Spring/Jetty/Tomcat stack.
> > > > The 100% Mac is the development environment of all of the engineers > in > > > > LinkedIn (i.e. desktops and laptops). > > > > Keep the Apple talk in the podcast :-)
> > > > Though I respect Joel Spolsky, I strongly disagree to the stuff he > said > > > > about Macs in his StackOverflow podcast. > > > > The Macs are definitely not just luxury, they are a superior > development > > > > machines. > > > > Most of the engineers which come to work here are using Macs for the > > > first > > > > time as java workstations, and you can hear this statement again and > > > again.
Same experience (Windows until 2003, Ubuntu until May 2008, Mac Book since JavaOne :). Same conclusion: I really love the Mac experience, but I miss my Ubuntu freedom. I hope, that the big increase in developers using Mac will generate more and more free and cool application I missing: meld (DiffMerge so so), better term, scp in Finder (Fugu way below Unix), and more.
But, the multi-touch, the screen and second screen, the UI, I'm so enjoying it!!!
On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 9:35 PM, Eishay Smith <eis...@gmail.com> wrote: > @Casper: These are good questions, which I don't have a definite answer to. > The language indeed maters a lot, its the material you do your product > with. > The tools (IDE, OS, Shell ...) are probably more of a subject to individual > taste.
> Quality of a tool is something that is hard to measure. You can take two > sets of tools that do the same functions with the same empiric parameters > but one is clearly better then the other. The proof is simple, go to tour > favorite construction tools shop and see the price and perceived quality > difference for tools that have the same power and size. Last time I did that > and asked the expert why one is better, he told me that its just is :-)
> We can start a nice philosophical discussion here, but at the end I think > you must try it for yourself and only then you'll understand. The answer is > in the small details that eventually do matter. I'm not smart enough to say > why Mac is better (maybe quicksilver, iTerm, slick integration between > applications, FreeBSD core...), but I belive that eventually it is.
> I want through the Windows, Ubuntu and Mac, used each for several years. > I would argue that most the people with similar experience would have > similar conclusions.
> Eishay
> On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 1:29 AM, Casper Bang <casper.b...@gmail.com> > wrote:
>> > they are a superior development machines.
>> Care to qualify that subjective marketing statement a little... In >> what sense are they superior? What can you do on a Mac that you can >> not do on no-nonsence Ubuntu box? I find it's usually the languages >> and the tools rather than the machine which makes a difference during >> development.
>> /Casper
>> On 18 Jun., 08:11, "Eishay Smith" <eis...@gmail.com> wrote: >> > Just to complete the picture, the rest is using C++, RoR, and >> Groovy/Grails. >> > Actually we have one team, which is RoR top to bottom, and another team >> > doing a full product in Grails. >> > Nevertheless, almost all of the core business logic is using a Java on >> > Spring/Jetty/Tomcat stack.
>> > The 100% Mac is the development environment of all of the engineers in >> > LinkedIn (i.e. desktops and laptops). >> > Keep the Apple talk in the podcast :-)
>> > Though I respect Joel Spolsky, I strongly disagree to the stuff he said >> > about Macs in his StackOverflow podcast. >> > The Macs are definitely not just luxury, they are a superior development >> > machines. >> > Most of the engineers which come to work here are using Macs for the >> first >> > time as java workstations, and you can hear this statement again and >> again.
Ditto the sentiment. I don't purchase the RAM upgrade direct from
Apple, but that doesn't keep me from getting it from any other
reputable vendor. Seems like its the same RAM as in and other Intel
system.
On Jun 18, 3:45 pm, "Viktor Klang" <viktor.kl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 9:22 PM, Casper Bang <casper.b...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Thanks for clarifying Eishay. Clearly Apple is very good at picking
> > quality components and pushing new aesthetic boundaries, and that's
> > good for all of us as consumers. What scares me is the lock down
> > issues and "milk-the-cow" policies. Colleagues with Apple computers
> > have to pay twice as much for a RAM upgrade, they can't just plug in
> > arbitrary hardware and for 1½ year were unable to run some of our
> > software because it's written for Java 6.
> They were unable to buy a DDR2 SODIMM?
> I can offer to instruct them at a nominal fee.... ;)
> -Viktor
> > So while I am sure I could be an Apple fan boy too, I am just not sure
> > I am ready to trade in my freedom. If I cared only about superior
> > development platform, I would've stayed on Windows and had my fun in a
> > language containing all the features which is cause for so much
> > controversy and confusion in Java these days.
> > /Casper
> > On Jun 18, 8:35 pm, "Eishay Smith" <eis...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > @Casper: These are good questions, which I don't have a definite answer
> > to.
> > > The language indeed maters a lot, its the material you do your product
> > with.
> > > The tools (IDE, OS, Shell ...) are probably more of a subject to
> > individual
> > > taste.
> > > Quality of a tool is something that is hard to measure. You can take two
> > > sets of tools that do the same functions with the same empiric parameters
> > > but one is clearly better then the other. The proof is simple, go to tour
> > > favorite construction tools shop and see the price and perceived quality
> > > difference for tools that have the same power and size. Last time I did
> > that
> > > and asked the expert why one is better, he told me that its just is :-)
> > > We can start a nice philosophical discussion here, but at the end I think
> > > you must try it for yourself and only then you'll understand. The answer
> > is
> > > in the small details that eventually do matter. I'm not smart enough to
> > say
> > > why Mac is better (maybe quicksilver, iTerm, slick integration between
> > > applications, FreeBSD core...), but I belive that eventually it is.
> > > I want through the Windows, Ubuntu and Mac, used each for several years.
> > > I would argue that most the people with similar experience would have
> > > similar conclusions.
> > > Eishay
> > > On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 1:29 AM, Casper Bang <casper.b...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > > > they are a superior development machines.
> > > > Care to qualify that subjective marketing statement a little... In
> > > > what sense are they superior? What can you do on a Mac that you can
> > > > not do on no-nonsence Ubuntu box? I find it's usually the languages
> > > > and the tools rather than the machine which makes a difference during
> > > > development.
> > > > /Casper
> > > > On 18 Jun., 08:11, "Eishay Smith" <eis...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > Just to complete the picture, the rest is using C++, RoR, and
> > > > Groovy/Grails.
> > > > > Actually we have one team, which is RoR top to bottom, and another
> > team
> > > > > doing a full product in Grails.
> > > > > Nevertheless, almost all of the core business logic is using a Java
> > on
> > > > > Spring/Jetty/Tomcat stack.
> > > > > The 100% Mac is the development environment of all of the engineers
> > in
> > > > > LinkedIn (i.e. desktops and laptops).
> > > > > Keep the Apple talk in the podcast :-)
> > > > > Though I respect Joel Spolsky, I strongly disagree to the stuff he
> > said
> > > > > about Macs in his StackOverflow podcast.
> > > > > The Macs are definitely not just luxury, they are a superior
> > development
> > > > > machines.
> > > > > Most of the engineers which come to work here are using Macs for the
> > > > first
> > > > > time as java workstations, and you can hear this statement again and
> > > > again.
When I bought my macbook pro a few months ago I skipped Apple's $400 4
gig upgrade and bought with the mininum 2 gig. Then I ordered 4 gig
from newegg for $105. Works fine. It's just an intel motherboard in
there.....
On Jun 18, 1:22 pm, Casper Bang <casper.b...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks for clarifying Eishay. Clearly Apple is very good at picking
> quality components and pushing new aesthetic boundaries, and that's
> good for all of us as consumers. What scares me is the lock down
> issues and "milk-the-cow" policies. Colleagues with Apple computers
> have to pay twice as much for a RAM upgrade, they can't just plug in
> arbitrary hardware and for 1½ year were unable to run some of our
> software because it's written for Java 6.
> So while I am sure I could be an Apple fan boy too, I am just not sure
> I am ready to trade in my freedom. If I cared only about superior
> development platform, I would've stayed on Windows and had my fun in a
> language containing all the features which is cause for so much
> controversy and confusion in Java these days.
> /Casper
> On Jun 18, 8:35 pm, "Eishay Smith" <eis...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > @Casper: These are good questions, which I don't have a definite answer to.
> > The language indeed maters a lot, its the material you do your product with.
> > The tools (IDE, OS, Shell ...) are probably more of a subject to individual
> > taste.
> > Quality of a tool is something that is hard to measure. You can take two
> > sets of tools that do the same functions with the same empiric parameters
> > but one is clearly better then the other. The proof is simple, go to tour
> > favorite construction tools shop and see the price and perceived quality
> > difference for tools that have the same power and size. Last time I did that
> > and asked the expert why one is better, he told me that its just is :-)
> > We can start a nice philosophical discussion here, but at the end I think
> > you must try it for yourself and only then you'll understand. The answer is
> > in the small details that eventually do matter. I'm not smart enough to say
> > why Mac is better (maybe quicksilver, iTerm, slick integration between
> > applications, FreeBSD core...), but I belive that eventually it is.
> > I want through the Windows, Ubuntu and Mac, used each for several years.
> > I would argue that most the people with similar experience would have
> > similar conclusions.
> > Eishay
> > On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 1:29 AM, Casper Bang <casper.b...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > they are a superior development machines.
> > > Care to qualify that subjective marketing statement a little... In
> > > what sense are they superior? What can you do on a Mac that you can
> > > not do on no-nonsence Ubuntu box? I find it's usually the languages
> > > and the tools rather than the machine which makes a difference during
> > > development.
> > > /Casper
> > > On 18 Jun., 08:11, "Eishay Smith" <eis...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Just to complete the picture, the rest is using C++, RoR, and
> > > Groovy/Grails.
> > > > Actually we have one team, which is RoR top to bottom, and another team
> > > > doing a full product in Grails.
> > > > Nevertheless, almost all of the core business logic is using a Java on
> > > > Spring/Jetty/Tomcat stack.
> > > > The 100% Mac is the development environment of all of the engineers in
> > > > LinkedIn (i.e. desktops and laptops).
> > > > Keep the Apple talk in the podcast :-)
> > > > Though I respect Joel Spolsky, I strongly disagree to the stuff he said
> > > > about Macs in his StackOverflow podcast.
> > > > The Macs are definitely not just luxury, they are a superior development
> > > > machines.
> > > > Most of the engineers which come to work here are using Macs for the
> > > first
> > > > time as java workstations, and you can hear this statement again and
> > > again.
I got a Dell, too -- and I'm happy with the keyboard, the extra DPIs on the screen and the way Ubuntu configured everything in there, including the right resolution for the screen, the sound, the WLAN, the SD-card reader, Bluetooth you name it (never tried the modem, though). Both suspend and hibernate work without any problem. And that's on hardware that was not designed to run Linux (it's 3 years old now, and I don't think Dell was into Linux back then). To install something that's not there out of the box, I kick of Adept, type the name in and tick the program in the result list.
The one thing that still annoys the hell out of me is dual-head support. While I tend to get configurations I want, changing them involves restoring my backups of the xorg.conf file -- configuring it using the UI is just too fiddly and doesn't always work. And you have to restart X to change, which is a pain even with KDE's excellent session management.
But while I believe I understand what the Apple crowd is talking about, my pain is just not big enough to lose my freedom. Of course there is the option to run Linux on Apple hardware, which sounds enticing :-)
On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 11:25 PM, Ben Schulz <ya...@gmx.net> wrote:
> I own a Dell laptop and the only thing missing from your list is the > two finger scrolling. Not sure if it could handle it (hardware wise), > but I don't really need it anyways -- I mean 99%+ of the time I have a > mouse attached anyways.
> PS: In my experience setting up Ubuntu is a breeze.
> With kind regards > Ben
> On 18 Jun., 13:55, Reinier Zwitserloot <reini...@gmail.com> wrote: >> Casper: Hardware considerations, and hardware/os integration issues.
>> Close your notebook and 'just' have it go to sleep properly, no matter >> what you were doing. A high quality keyboard. Two-finger scrolling >> trough code. The ability to buy something in a store or mail order it, >> open it up, install just the exact tools you need, and get going, >> without having to customize a truckload.
>> Ubuntu is sneaking closer every day though, and at this point the >> difference is marginal, especially if you run ubuntu on apple >> hardware. It's a real shame other notebook manufacturers are producing >> such turds. Apple is getting a massive free ride simply because no one >> to date even makes a notebook with a halfway decent keyboard. >> Possibly, part of the mac/apple hype is simply a grassroots effort to >> convince other notebook manufacturers that going for a nice list of >> specs plus a low price is just not how you should be doing business >> anymore. You can't put 'feel of the keyboard' or 'proper software/ >> hardware integration' and 'no need to reinstall an OS to remove all >> the crap we've foisted on it' in the spec list, but those are all far >> more important than 0.2 more Ghz, or 40GB more on the hard drive.
>> On Jun 18, 10:29 am, Casper Bang <casper.b...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > they are a superior development machines.
>> > Care to qualify that subjective marketing statement a little... In >> > what sense are they superior? What can you do on a Mac that you can >> > not do on no-nonsence Ubuntu box? I find it's usually the languages >> > and the tools rather than the machine which makes a difference during >> > development.
>> > /Casper
>> > On 18 Jun., 08:11, "Eishay Smith" <eis...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > Just to complete the picture, the rest is using C++, RoR, and Groovy/Grails. >> > > Actually we have one team, which is RoR top to bottom, and another team >> > > doing a full product in Grails. >> > > Nevertheless, almost all of the core business logic is using a Java on >> > > Spring/Jetty/Tomcat stack.
>> > > The 100% Mac is the development environment of all of the engineers in >> > > LinkedIn (i.e. desktops and laptops). >> > > Keep the Apple talk in the podcast :-)
>> > > Though I respect Joel Spolsky, I strongly disagree to the stuff he said >> > > about Macs in his StackOverflow podcast. >> > > The Macs are definitely not just luxury, they are a superior development >> > > machines. >> > > Most of the engineers which come to work here are using Macs for the first >> > > time as java workstations, and you can hear this statement again and again.
First thing I tried (just in case) to put Ubuntu on my Mac book pro, and not very successful... So, I'll wait. The dual head was a big pain for me too. I managed to have a really good conf that worked most of time (with xrandr to play with the resolution) but the X reboot was a pain. Now with 8.04, ATI driver (on my T600p Lenovo) are not even supported anymore, and I can't develop Stellarium... So, I'm happy to check JOGL bugs on Mac and finally have a great version of Stellarium for Mac, but rigth now :( No sky... Frankly, I really love this feeling that OS competition is not dead, really exiting time. On the other hand I can't ignore Windows deployment and Sun buying Virtual Box and making it full for Mac is solving it all: Ubuntu Hardy and Windows XP on top of my Mac OSX...
On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 1:29 AM, Peter Becker <peter.becker...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I got a Dell, too -- and I'm happy with the keyboard, the extra DPIs > on the screen and the way Ubuntu configured everything in there, > including the right resolution for the screen, the sound, the WLAN, > the SD-card reader, Bluetooth you name it (never tried the modem, > though). Both suspend and hibernate work without any problem. And > that's on hardware that was not designed to run Linux (it's 3 years > old now, and I don't think Dell was into Linux back then). To install > something that's not there out of the box, I kick of Adept, type the > name in and tick the program in the result list.
> The one thing that still annoys the hell out of me is dual-head > support. While I tend to get configurations I want, changing them > involves restoring my backups of the xorg.conf file -- configuring it > using the UI is just too fiddly and doesn't always work. And you have > to restart X to change, which is a pain even with KDE's excellent > session management.
> But while I believe I understand what the Apple crowd is talking > about, my pain is just not big enough to lose my freedom. Of course > there is the option to run Linux on Apple hardware, which sounds > enticing :-)
> Peter
> On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 11:25 PM, Ben Schulz <ya...@gmx.net> wrote:
> > I own a Dell laptop and the only thing missing from your list is the > > two finger scrolling. Not sure if it could handle it (hardware wise), > > but I don't really need it anyways -- I mean 99%+ of the time I have a > > mouse attached anyways.
> > PS: In my experience setting up Ubuntu is a breeze.
> > With kind regards > > Ben
> > On 18 Jun., 13:55, Reinier Zwitserloot <reini...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Casper: Hardware considerations, and hardware/os integration issues.
> >> Close your notebook and 'just' have it go to sleep properly, no matter > >> what you were doing. A high quality keyboard. Two-finger scrolling > >> trough code. The ability to buy something in a store or mail order it, > >> open it up, install just the exact tools you need, and get going, > >> without having to customize a truckload.
> >> Ubuntu is sneaking closer every day though, and at this point the > >> difference is marginal, especially if you run ubuntu on apple > >> hardware. It's a real shame other notebook manufacturers are producing > >> such turds. Apple is getting a massive free ride simply because no one > >> to date even makes a notebook with a halfway decent keyboard. > >> Possibly, part of the mac/apple hype is simply a grassroots effort to > >> convince other notebook manufacturers that going for a nice list of > >> specs plus a low price is just not how you should be doing business > >> anymore. You can't put 'feel of the keyboard' or 'proper software/ > >> hardware integration' and 'no need to reinstall an OS to remove all > >> the crap we've foisted on it' in the spec list, but those are all far > >> more important than 0.2 more Ghz, or 40GB more on the hard drive.
> >> On Jun 18, 10:29 am, Casper Bang <casper.b...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > > they are a superior development machines.
> >> > Care to qualify that subjective marketing statement a little... In > >> > what sense are they superior? What can you do on a Mac that you can > >> > not do on no-nonsence Ubuntu box? I find it's usually the languages > >> > and the tools rather than the machine which makes a difference during > >> > development.
> >> > > Just to complete the picture, the rest is using C++, RoR, and > Groovy/Grails. > >> > > Actually we have one team, which is RoR top to bottom, and another > team > >> > > doing a full product in Grails. > >> > > Nevertheless, almost all of the core business logic is using a Java > on > >> > > Spring/Jetty/Tomcat stack.
> >> > > The 100% Mac is the development environment of all of the engineers > in > >> > > LinkedIn (i.e. desktops and laptops). > >> > > Keep the Apple talk in the podcast :-)
> >> > > Though I respect Joel Spolsky, I strongly disagree to the stuff he > said > >> > > about Macs in his StackOverflow podcast. > >> > > The Macs are definitely not just luxury, they are a superior > development > >> > > machines. > >> > > Most of the engineers which come to work here are using Macs for the > first > >> > > time as java workstations, and you can hear this statement again and > again.
Somehow many of the Linux ditros have move to support only recent hardware well -- which is not that different from other platforms, really, but the old scheme of taking an old box and putting a recent Linux on it doesn't necessarily work anymore :-(
Hardware support is much better if you buy hardware that is explicitly supporting a particular OS and I think that is one of the major advantages of Apple -- they deliberately restrict themselves to a small collection of hardware and they are happy to stop support for old hardware in newer versions of MacOS. Which is really fair enough, but I don't think it is fair to claim Linux has lots of problems with hardware that MacOS hasn't -- any comparison of that type should be made on components that were chosen for Linux use, not the old box dug out of the closet.
<frederic.si...@gmail.com> wrote: > First thing I tried (just in case) to put Ubuntu on my Mac book pro, and not > very successful... So, I'll wait. > The dual head was a big pain for me too. I managed to have a really good > conf that worked most of time (with xrandr to play with the resolution) but > the X reboot was a pain. > Now with 8.04, ATI driver (on my T600p Lenovo) are not even supported > anymore, and I can't develop Stellarium... So, I'm happy to check JOGL bugs > on Mac and finally have a great version of Stellarium for Mac, but rigth now > :( No sky... > Frankly, I really love this feeling that OS competition is not dead, really > exiting time. > On the other hand I can't ignore Windows deployment and Sun buying Virtual > Box and making it full for Mac is solving it all: Ubuntu Hardy and Windows > XP on top of my Mac OSX...
> On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 1:29 AM, Peter Becker <peter.becker...@gmail.com> > wrote:
>> I got a Dell, too -- and I'm happy with the keyboard, the extra DPIs >> on the screen and the way Ubuntu configured everything in there, >> including the right resolution for the screen, the sound, the WLAN, >> the SD-card reader, Bluetooth you name it (never tried the modem, >> though). Both suspend and hibernate work without any problem. And >> that's on hardware that was not designed to run Linux (it's 3 years >> old now, and I don't think Dell was into Linux back then). To install >> something that's not there out of the box, I kick of Adept, type the >> name in and tick the program in the result list.
>> The one thing that still annoys the hell out of me is dual-head >> support. While I tend to get configurations I want, changing them >> involves restoring my backups of the xorg.conf file -- configuring it >> using the UI is just too fiddly and doesn't always work. And you have >> to restart X to change, which is a pain even with KDE's excellent >> session management.
>> But while I believe I understand what the Apple crowd is talking >> about, my pain is just not big enough to lose my freedom. Of course >> there is the option to run Linux on Apple hardware, which sounds >> enticing :-)
>> Peter
>> On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 11:25 PM, Ben Schulz <ya...@gmx.net> wrote:
>> > I own a Dell laptop and the only thing missing from your list is the >> > two finger scrolling. Not sure if it could handle it (hardware wise), >> > but I don't really need it anyways -- I mean 99%+ of the time I have a >> > mouse attached anyways.
>> > PS: In my experience setting up Ubuntu is a breeze.
>> > With kind regards >> > Ben
>> > On 18 Jun., 13:55, Reinier Zwitserloot <reini...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Casper: Hardware considerations, and hardware/os integration issues.
>> >> Close your notebook and 'just' have it go to sleep properly, no matter >> >> what you were doing. A high quality keyboard. Two-finger scrolling >> >> trough code. The ability to buy something in a store or mail order it, >> >> open it up, install just the exact tools you need, and get going, >> >> without having to customize a truckload.
>> >> Ubuntu is sneaking closer every day though, and at this point the >> >> difference is marginal, especially if you run ubuntu on apple >> >> hardware. It's a real shame other notebook manufacturers are producing >> >> such turds. Apple is getting a massive free ride simply because no one >> >> to date even makes a notebook with a halfway decent keyboard. >> >> Possibly, part of the mac/apple hype is simply a grassroots effort to >> >> convince other notebook manufacturers that going for a nice list of >> >> specs plus a low price is just not how you should be doing business >> >> anymore. You can't put 'feel of the keyboard' or 'proper software/ >> >> hardware integration' and 'no need to reinstall an OS to remove all >> >> the crap we've foisted on it' in the spec list, but those are all far >> >> more important than 0.2 more Ghz, or 40GB more on the hard drive.
>> >> On Jun 18, 10:29 am, Casper Bang <casper.b...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > > they are a superior development machines.
>> >> > Care to qualify that subjective marketing statement a little... In >> >> > what sense are they superior? What can you do on a Mac that you can >> >> > not do on no-nonsence Ubuntu box? I find it's usually the languages >> >> > and the tools rather than the machine which makes a difference during >> >> > development.
>> >> > > Just to complete the picture, the rest is using C++, RoR, and >> >> > > Groovy/Grails. >> >> > > Actually we have one team, which is RoR top to bottom, and another >> >> > > team >> >> > > doing a full product in Grails. >> >> > > Nevertheless, almost all of the core business logic is using a Java >> >> > > on >> >> > > Spring/Jetty/Tomcat stack.
>> >> > > The 100% Mac is the development environment of all of the engineers >> >> > > in >> >> > > LinkedIn (i.e. desktops and laptops). >> >> > > Keep the Apple talk in the podcast :-)
>> >> > > Though I respect Joel Spolsky, I strongly disagree to the stuff he >> >> > > said >> >> > > about Macs in his StackOverflow podcast. >> >> > > The Macs are definitely not just luxury, they are a superior >> >> > > development >> >> > > machines. >> >> > > Most of the engineers which come to work here are using Macs for >> >> > > the first >> >> > > time as java workstations, and you can hear this statement again >> >> > > and again.
Which dell is that, Ben? I've never met a dell with a proper keyboard
to date. Their batterys have so far always crapped out on me after
less than a year, too. I also hope they've done something about the
power bricks. Last time I checked they were half the size of the
notebook. Dells are kinda hard to go admire in a store, especially
here in europe, and these days I don't know anyone that buys them, so
I'm a bit out of the loop. If dell is finally catching up, that'd be
an excellent sign - I get antsy knowing there's only one hardware
manufacturer out there that makes something I can work on. Single
point of failures are bad :)
Casper: ... then your friends are idiots. It's a well known thing that
apple 'milks' those who couldn't be bothered to do their own memory
upgrades. Just buy 2x2GB SO-DIMMS for like 70 bucks, and install it
yourself. Same story, to a lesser extent, for the hard drive (that's
only for the macbook, all other apple notebooks don't have a removable
HDD IIRC). Also, since when do other notebooks offer extension
capabilities? Macbooks have USB, Firewire, and the pros have this
expresscard thingie. Aside from the aging PCMCIA that's about as far
as notebook upgrades usually go. The java6 thing was bloody annoying
but fortunately all around java hero landon fuller, along with sun's
wise decision to open source java, means that'll never happen again.
On Jun 18, 3:25 pm, Ben Schulz <ya...@gmx.net> wrote:
> I own a Dell laptop and the only thing missing from your list is the
> two finger scrolling. Not sure if it could handle it (hardware wise),
> but I don't really need it anyways -- I mean 99%+ of the time I have a
> mouse attached anyways.
> PS: In my experience setting up Ubuntu is a breeze.
> With kind regards
> Ben
> On 18 Jun., 13:55, Reinier Zwitserloot <reini...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Casper: Hardware considerations, and hardware/os integration issues.
> > Close your notebook and 'just' have it go to sleep properly, no matter
> > what you were doing. A high quality keyboard. Two-finger scrolling
> > trough code. The ability to buy something in a store or mail order it,
> > open it up, install just the exact tools you need, and get going,
> > without having to customize a truckload.
> > Ubuntu is sneaking closer every day though, and at this point the
> > difference is marginal, especially if you run ubuntu on apple
> > hardware. It's a real shame other notebook manufacturers are producing
> > such turds. Apple is getting a massive free ride simply because no one
> > to date even makes a notebook with a halfway decent keyboard.
> > Possibly, part of the mac/apple hype is simply a grassroots effort to
> > convince other notebook manufacturers that going for a nice list of
> > specs plus a low price is just not how you should be doing business
> > anymore. You can't put 'feel of the keyboard' or 'proper software/
> > hardware integration' and 'no need to reinstall an OS to remove all
> > the crap we've foisted on it' in the spec list, but those are all far
> > more important than 0.2 more Ghz, or 40GB more on the hard drive.
> > On Jun 18, 10:29 am, Casper Bang <casper.b...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > they are a superior development machines.
> > > Care to qualify that subjective marketing statement a little... In
> > > what sense are they superior? What can you do on a Mac that you can
> > > not do on no-nonsence Ubuntu box? I find it's usually the languages
> > > and the tools rather than the machine which makes a difference during
> > > development.
> > > > Just to complete the picture, the rest is using C++, RoR, and Groovy/Grails.
> > > > Actually we have one team, which is RoR top to bottom, and another team
> > > > doing a full product in Grails.
> > > > Nevertheless, almost all of the core business logic is using a Java on
> > > > Spring/Jetty/Tomcat stack.
> > > > The 100% Mac is the development environment of all of the engineers in
> > > > LinkedIn (i.e. desktops and laptops).
> > > > Keep the Apple talk in the podcast :-)
> > > > Though I respect Joel Spolsky, I strongly disagree to the stuff he said
> > > > about Macs in his StackOverflow podcast.
> > > > The Macs are definitely not just luxury, they are a superior development
> > > > machines.
> > > > Most of the engineers which come to work here are using Macs for the first
> > > > time as java workstations, and you can hear this statement again and again.
It's a Latitude D820. It's pretty much exactly two years old and I get
a solid 4 hours out of the battery.
I'm not sure what you are looking for in a keyboard, so I couldn't say
it has a "proper one". Then again the Mac keyboards aren't
ergonomically pleasing either; for a laptop that's obviously okay, but
I'm sure you don't do much of your coding on the road, and since we're
looking for the "superior development platform"...
I agree that the devil is in the details, but if there is one thing
that I am sure of it is that sooner or later Linux is going to kick
ass. I'm betting on sooner.
With kind regards
Ben
On 19 Jun., 03:09, Reinier Zwitserloot <reini...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Which dell is that, Ben? I've never met a dell with a proper keyboard
> to date. Their batterys have so far always crapped out on me after
> less than a year, too. I also hope they've done something about the
> power bricks. Last time I checked they were half the size of the
> notebook. Dells are kinda hard to go admire in a store, especially
> here in europe, and these days I don't know anyone that buys them, so
> I'm a bit out of the loop. If dell is finally catching up, that'd be
> an excellent sign - I get antsy knowing there's only one hardware
> manufacturer out there that makes something I can work on. Single
> point of failures are bad :)
> Casper: ... then your friends are idiots. It's a well known thing that
> apple 'milks' those who couldn't be bothered to do their own memory
> upgrades. Just buy 2x2GB SO-DIMMS for like 70 bucks, and install it
> yourself. Same story, to a lesser extent, for the hard drive (that's
> only for the macbook, all other apple notebooks don't have a removable
> HDD IIRC). Also, since when do other notebooks offer extension
> capabilities? Macbooks have USB, Firewire, and the pros have this
> expresscard thingie. Aside from the aging PCMCIA that's about as far
> as notebook upgrades usually go. The java6 thing was bloody annoying
> but fortunately all around java hero landon fuller, along with sun's
> wise decision to open source java, means that'll never happen again.
> On Jun 18, 3:25 pm, Ben Schulz <ya...@gmx.net> wrote:
> > I own a Dell laptop and the only thing missing from your list is the
> > two finger scrolling. Not sure if it could handle it (hardware wise),
> > but I don't really need it anyways -- I mean 99%+ of the time I have a
> > mouse attached anyways.
> > PS: In my experience setting up Ubuntu is a breeze.
> > With kind regards
> > Ben
> > On 18 Jun., 13:55, Reinier Zwitserloot <reini...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Casper: Hardware considerations, and hardware/os integration issues.
> > > Close your notebook and 'just' have it go to sleep properly, no matter
> > > what you were doing. A high quality keyboard. Two-finger scrolling
> > > trough code. The ability to buy something in a store or mail order it,
> > > open it up, install just the exact tools you need, and get going,
> > > without having to customize a truckload.
> > > Ubuntu is sneaking closer every day though, and at this point the
> > > difference is marginal, especially if you run ubuntu on apple
> > > hardware. It's a real shame other notebook manufacturers are producing
> > > such turds. Apple is getting a massive free ride simply because no one
> > > to date even makes a notebook with a halfway decent keyboard.
> > > Possibly, part of the mac/apple hype is simply a grassroots effort to
> > > convince other notebook manufacturers that going for a nice list of
> > > specs plus a low price is just not how you should be doing business
> > > anymore. You can't put 'feel of the keyboard' or 'proper software/
> > > hardware integration' and 'no need to reinstall an OS to remove all
> > > the crap we've foisted on it' in the spec list, but those are all far
> > > more important than 0.2 more Ghz, or 40GB more on the hard drive.
> > > On Jun 18, 10:29 am, Casper Bang <casper.b...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > they are a superior development machines.
> > > > Care to qualify that subjective marketing statement a little... In
> > > > what sense are they superior? What can you do on a Mac that you can
> > > > not do on no-nonsence Ubuntu box? I find it's usually the languages
> > > > and the tools rather than the machine which makes a difference during
> > > > development.
> > > > > Just to complete the picture, the rest is using C++, RoR, and Groovy/Grails.
> > > > > Actually we have one team, which is RoR top to bottom, and another team
> > > > > doing a full product in Grails.
> > > > > Nevertheless, almost all of the core business logic is using a Java on
> > > > > Spring/Jetty/Tomcat stack.
> > > > > The 100% Mac is the development environment of all of the engineers in
> > > > > LinkedIn (i.e. desktops and laptops).
> > > > > Keep the Apple talk in the podcast :-)
> > > > > Though I respect Joel Spolsky, I strongly disagree to the stuff he said
> > > > > about Macs in his StackOverflow podcast.
> > > > > The Macs are definitely not just luxury, they are a superior development
> > > > > machines.
> > > > > Most of the engineers which come to work here are using Macs for the first
> > > > > time as java workstations, and you can hear this statement again and again.
I've got an Inspiron 6000 from about 3 years ago and I'm still pretty happy with the keyboard -- it sure beats the $5 crap you find on most business desktops. It's not perfect, but mind you: the only keyboard I ever really liked was the very first edition of the Microsoft Natural Keyboard. But I guess keyboards are a very personal thing and depend on ones taste a lot.
The fact that you can't test a Dell before buying is a bit of a problem, though. Fortunately down here you find some stalls in the hallways of larger malls now.
Peter
On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 11:09 AM, Reinier Zwitserloot
> Which dell is that, Ben? I've never met a dell with a proper keyboard > to date. Their batterys have so far always crapped out on me after > less than a year, too. I also hope they've done something about the > power bricks. Last time I checked they were half the size of the > notebook. Dells are kinda hard to go admire in a store, especially > here in europe, and these days I don't know anyone that buys them, so > I'm a bit out of the loop. If dell is finally catching up, that'd be > an excellent sign - I get antsy knowing there's only one hardware > manufacturer out there that makes something I can work on. Single > point of failures are bad :)
> Casper: ... then your friends are idiots. It's a well known thing that > apple 'milks' those who couldn't be bothered to do their own memory > upgrades. Just buy 2x2GB SO-DIMMS for like 70 bucks, and install it > yourself. Same story, to a lesser extent, for the hard drive (that's > only for the macbook, all other apple notebooks don't have a removable > HDD IIRC). Also, since when do other notebooks offer extension > capabilities? Macbooks have USB, Firewire, and the pros have this > expresscard thingie. Aside from the aging PCMCIA that's about as far > as notebook upgrades usually go. The java6 thing was bloody annoying > but fortunately all around java hero landon fuller, along with sun's > wise decision to open source java, means that'll never happen again.
> On Jun 18, 3:25 pm, Ben Schulz <ya...@gmx.net> wrote: >> I own a Dell laptop and the only thing missing from your list is the >> two finger scrolling. Not sure if it could handle it (hardware wise), >> but I don't really need it anyways -- I mean 99%+ of the time I have a >> mouse attached anyways.
>> PS: In my experience setting up Ubuntu is a breeze.
>> With kind regards >> Ben
>> On 18 Jun., 13:55, Reinier Zwitserloot <reini...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Casper: Hardware considerations, and hardware/os integration issues.
>> > Close your notebook and 'just' have it go to sleep properly, no matter >> > what you were doing. A high quality keyboard. Two-finger scrolling >> > trough code. The ability to buy something in a store or mail order it, >> > open it up, install just the exact tools you need, and get going, >> > without having to customize a truckload.
>> > Ubuntu is sneaking closer every day though, and at this point the >> > difference is marginal, especially if you run ubuntu on apple >> > hardware. It's a real shame other notebook manufacturers are producing >> > such turds. Apple is getting a massive free ride simply because no one >> > to date even makes a notebook with a halfway decent keyboard. >> > Possibly, part of the mac/apple hype is simply a grassroots effort to >> > convince other notebook manufacturers that going for a nice list of >> > specs plus a low price is just not how you should be doing business >> > anymore. You can't put 'feel of the keyboard' or 'proper software/ >> > hardware integration' and 'no need to reinstall an OS to remove all >> > the crap we've foisted on it' in the spec list, but those are all far >> > more important than 0.2 more Ghz, or 40GB more on the hard drive.
>> > On Jun 18, 10:29 am, Casper Bang <casper.b...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > > they are a superior development machines.
>> > > Care to qualify that subjective marketing statement a little... In >> > > what sense are they superior? What can you do on a Mac that you can >> > > not do on no-nonsence Ubuntu box? I find it's usually the languages >> > > and the tools rather than the machine which makes a difference during >> > > development.
>> > > > Just to complete the picture, the rest is using C++, RoR, and Groovy/Grails. >> > > > Actually we have one team, which is RoR top to bottom, and another team >> > > > doing a full product in Grails. >> > > > Nevertheless, almost all of the core business logic is using a Java on >> > > > Spring/Jetty/Tomcat stack.
>> > > > The 100% Mac is the development environment of all of the engineers in >> > > > LinkedIn (i.e. desktops and laptops). >> > > > Keep the Apple talk in the podcast :-)
>> > > > Though I respect Joel Spolsky, I strongly disagree to the stuff he said >> > > > about Macs in his StackOverflow podcast. >> > > > The Macs are definitely not just luxury, they are a superior development >> > > > machines. >> > > > Most of the engineers which come to work here are using Macs for the first >> > > > time as java workstations, and you can hear this statement again and again.
I hope I did not sound too much like an Apple fan boy; I really try to be just a practical engineer. Hey I actually don't have an iPhone (well, not yet at least...).
I might be detached from the real world here in the valley, but I don't feel like the price and Java6 are limiting that much. We have MacPro 8way/cpu and 12gig/ram with two 23'' cinema displays for engineers here (and macboks). Is it expensive? Sure! Do I care? Not really – my bosses should care. For some reason they concluded that better tools pays up over the long run. I believe they're right; you invest so much money in those software engineers so you might as well max out their productivity.
About java6, as I see it, the key improvement is performance. As Mac is the development environment, it is not for deployment. In the production machines may have the latest and greatest JVMs. If we get to the point of being crippled by the JVM version we can always downgrade to another OS - no problem since the code is Java :-) The problem with moving to another OS is that we loose the freedom of using some great Mac applications (see QuickSilver), where on Mac you have the freedom to use most of the good apps available on windows/*nix (IDEA, Eclipse, Firefox, OpenOffice ....).
On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 12:22 PM, Casper Bang <casper.b...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks for clarifying Eishay. Clearly Apple is very good at picking > quality components and pushing new aesthetic boundaries, and that's > good for all of us as consumers. What scares me is the lock down > issues and "milk-the-cow" policies. Colleagues with Apple computers > have to pay twice as much for a RAM upgrade, they can't just plug in > arbitrary hardware and for 1½ year were unable to run some of our > software because it's written for Java 6.
> So while I am sure I could be an Apple fan boy too, I am just not sure > I am ready to trade in my freedom. If I cared only about superior > development platform, I would've stayed on Windows and had my fun in a > language containing all the features which is cause for so much > controversy and confusion in Java these days.
On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 11:11 PM, Eishay Smith <eis...@gmail.com> wrote: > Just to complete the picture, the rest is using C++, RoR, and > Groovy/Grails. > Actually we have one team, which is RoR top to bottom, and another team > doing a full product in Grails. > Nevertheless, almost all of the core business logic is using a Java on > Spring/Jetty/Tomcat stack.
> The 100% Mac is the development environment of all of the engineers in > LinkedIn (i.e. desktops and laptops). > Keep the Apple talk in the podcast :-)
> Though I respect Joel Spolsky, I strongly disagree to the stuff he said > about Macs in his StackOverflow podcast. > The Macs are definitely not just luxury, they are a superior development > machines. > Most of the engineers which come to work here are using Macs for the first > time as java workstations, and you can hear this statement again and again.
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