JavaFX script to be dropped, JavaFX 2.0 will be an API on the JVM, usable from Java

[Kevin Wright]

Could this be true?  The twitterverse certainly seems to think so right now.

Scala, Clojure, Groovy, JRuby, Jython, etc. all invited to the party!

So the question is; who'll be first with a good DSL substitute for Fx Script?  The race is on...

--
Kevin Wright

mail / gtalk / msn : kev.lee...@gmail.com

pulse / skype: kev.lee.wright
twitter: @thecoda

[Reinier Zwitserloot]

Heh, and to think that as far as I understand the JavaFX movement, it
all _started_ with F3 ("Form follows function"), a scripting language
developed by Chris Oliver. F3 is to JavaFX Script as Oak is to Java,
i.e. v0.9.

On Sep 20, 8:33 pm, Kevin Wright <kev.lee.wri...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Could this be true?  The twitterverse certainly seems to think so right now.
> Scala, Clojure, Groovy, JRuby, Jython, etc. all invited to the party!
>
> So the question is; who'll be first with a good DSL substitute for Fx
> Script?  The race is on...
>
> --
> Kevin Wright
>

> mail / gtalk / msn : kev.lee.wri...@gmail.com

[Reinier Zwitserloot]

On the plus side, my (and many others') prediction that Sun/Oracle
will be announcing JavaFX at JavaOne for the third year in a row has
come true!

On Sep 20, 8:33 pm, Kevin Wright <kev.lee.wri...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Could this be true?  The twitterverse certainly seems to think so right now.
> Scala, Clojure, Groovy, JRuby, Jython, etc. all invited to the party!
>
> So the question is; who'll be first with a good DSL substitute for Fx
> Script?  The race is on...
>
> --
> Kevin Wright
>

> mail / gtalk / msn : kev.lee.wri...@gmail.com

[Kevin Wright]

I hope you had some money on that :)

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[Jo Voordeckers]

Unfortunately it's true.... I was in the JavaFX 2.0 session.

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- Jo

[clay]

I hope you have some money on the ridiculous OP. I'm guessing that
JavaFX 2.0 is what was rumored to be JavaFX 1.4 with the Prism
runtime, full data grid controls, full 3D, etc.

You can already use Scala or other JVM languages with JavaFX. You have
to use FX script for the actual interface itself, but most JavaFX apps
use another JVM-language for other application logic.

[Jan Goyvaerts™]

Is it going to be Swing's successor then ?

The language itself was quite neat. A shame they're getting rid of it. Any special reason ?

[Kevin Wright]

So... Oracle have delayed closures in Java for two years, and are reducing competition/confusion in the "alternate JVM language" space.

I'm now wondering if Dick's offering shares in his latest commercial venture :)

[clay]

wow! I would have lost that bet...

[Kevin Wright]

Yeah, if only I *had* had some money on it...

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[Jan Goyvaerts™]

Would there be in fact a problem to re-create the JavaFX language ? Forbidden probably...

[Kevin Wright]

ScalaFX, GroovyFX... It could be done as a DSL

[Kevin Wright]

Depending on the exact language, there's always type safety on offer!

Clojure has the advantage of being very like XML, except the brackets are round.

On 20 September 2010 21:07, CKoerner <ches...@gmail.com> wrote:

So does this make it more or less like XAML?

I was under the impression this approach had many benefits from easier
tooling to easier maintenance. What benefits does moving it to an API
that outweigh the scripting benefits?

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[Fabrizio Giudici]

On 9/20/10 12:31 , Jan Goyvaerts� wrote:
> Is it going to be Swing's successor then ?
>
>

I'm reading this quickly (I'm eating). This sounds good for some things
(reusability, which BTW sounds as a "return to the origin", since I
remember that in 2007 Sun was saying in a way that JavaFX runtime could
have been used by the regular JavaVM (which didn't prove true as there
were not "blessed" APIs. So far so good. For the dropping of the
language, it's bad. I'm curious about binding! If Oracle plans to revamp
BeansBinding or such... and eventually provide some language level
support. I was at the Java 7 keynote, but I didn't follow it with full
attention :o) I saw Mark possibly talking about fully supported
properties, so I suppose there will be something related to binding.
Anybody can comment?

PS OTOH, the JavaFX script compiler is the JavaFX part that is open
sourced. I suppose JavaFX script could be fully supported by aficionados
if they want to keep it live.

--
Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager
Tidalwave s.a.s. - "We make Java work. Everywhere."
java.net/blog/fabriziogiudici - www.tidalwave.it/people
Fabrizio...@tidalwave.it

[Jan Goyvaerts™]

Ahwel... maybe that's the occasion to learn about DSL's, lexers and al. :-)

[Cédric Beust ♔]

I think that all this move is going to accomplish is to push even more developers toward SWT/JFace/Eclipse RCP.

Seriously, Java FX has close to zero adoption, the only times I ever hear about it are either during Java One or from Sun employees or JavaFX book authors.

-- 

Cédric

On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 1:25 PM, Fabrizio Giudici <fabrizio...@tidalwave.it> wrote:

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[Jess Holle]

Well if they give JavaFX a really nice Java API so one can use it from Java as easily as Swing, then there's nothing more compelling about SWT due to this announcement.

SWT has no point over Swing at this point (vs. when it was originally created) unless you or your users are really hung up on widgets or fonts tracking the native platforms perfectly.  Some of us really and truly could care less.  Just give us a decent UI that runs on any desktop OS without any extra native libraries, etc (which kills the notion of SWT immediately) and a reasonable API (which Swing has in my book).  The rest of the Eclipse RCP might be nice -- but it's "contaminated" by SWT for those who want no part of SWT.

--
Jess Holle

[Cédric Beust ♔]

On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 1:39 PM, Jess Holle <je...@ptc.com> wrote:

Well if they give JavaFX a really nice Java API so one can use it from Java as easily as Swing, then there's nothing more compelling about SWT due to this announcement.

SWT has no point over Swing at this point (vs. when it was originally created) unless you or your users are really hung up on widgets or fonts tracking the native platforms perfectly.  Some of us really and truly could care less.

You probably mean "could not care less", otherwise you're agreeing with me :-)

A lot of people care about applications looking like the host OS they are running in, and SWT/JFace/EclipseRCP is way ahead of Swing in that area.

 

  Just give us a decent UI that runs on any desktop OS without any extra native libraries, etc (which kills the notion of SWT immediately)

How so? Swing uses native libraries as well (well, AWT does). They are just implementing the UI at a different level than SWT.

The whole "native libraries are evil" thing died more than ten years ago.

and a reasonable API (which Swing has in my book).  The rest of the Eclipse RCP might be nice -- but it's "contaminated" by SWT for those who want no part of SWT.

Sounds like a pretty arbitrary and emotional position, but whatever works for you.

--
Cédric

[mbien]

On Sep 20, 10:25 pm, Fabrizio Giudici <fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it>
wrote:
[...]

> PS OTOH, the JavaFX script compiler is the JavaFX part that is open
> sourced. I suppose JavaFX script could be fully supported by aficionados
> if they want to keep it live.

the compiler in use is not open sourced.

best regards,
michael

http://michael-bien.com/

[...]

>
> --
> Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager
> Tidalwave s.a.s. - "We make Java work. Everywhere."
> java.net/blog/fabriziogiudici -www.tidalwave.it/people

> Fabrizio.Giud...@tidalwave.it

[Marcelo Fukushima]

On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 5:49 PM, Cédric Beust ♔ <ced...@beust.com> wrote:

On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 1:39 PM, Jess Holle <je...@ptc.com> wrote:

Well if they give JavaFX a really nice Java API so one can use it from Java as easily as Swing, then there's nothing more compelling about SWT due to this announcement.

SWT has no point over Swing at this point (vs. when it was originally created) unless you or your users are really hung up on widgets or fonts tracking the native platforms perfectly.  Some of us really and truly could care less.

You probably mean "could not care less", otherwise you're agreeing with me :-)

A lot of people care about applications looking like the host OS they are running in, and SWT/JFace/EclipseRCP is way ahead of Swing in that area.

i actually too do not care if they look like the native platform as long as they look decent

 

 

  Just give us a decent UI that runs on any desktop OS without any extra native libraries, etc (which kills the notion of SWT immediately)

How so? Swing uses native libraries as well (well, AWT does). They are just implementing the UI at a different level than SWT.

the only difference is that those native libraries come with the jre. For example, on solaris / opensolaris, its a little hard to use SWT based applications - a while back i had to manually compile eclipse and the rcp in order to work (my work machine is an opensolaris)

 

The whole "native libraries are evil" thing died more than ten years ago.

and a reasonable API (which Swing has in my book).  The rest of the Eclipse RCP might be nice -- but it's "contaminated" by SWT for those who want no part of SWT.

Sounds like a pretty arbitrary and emotional position, but whatever works for you.

--
Cédric

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[Fabrizio Giudici]

On 9/20/10 13:29 , Cédric Beust ♔ wrote:
> I think that all this move is going to accomplish is to push even more
> developers toward SWT/JFace/Eclipse RCP.
>
> Seriously, Java FX has close to zero adoption, the only times I ever
> hear about it are either during Java One or from Sun employees or
> JavaFX book authors.
>

The latter part of the statement is not a proof of the former. For
instance, I almost don't know a single person working on SWT (the
exception being from the past week), and this doesn't prove that nobody
is using SWT. In any case, the large increase of adoption of the
NetBeans Platform in the industry is related to the fact that many don't
like SWT (and hence the Eclipse Platform).

[Cédric Beust ♔]

On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 2:07 PM, Fabrizio Giudici <fabrizio...@tidalwave.it> wrote:

In any case, the large increase of adoption of the NetBeans Platform in the industry is related to the fact that many don't like SWT (and hence the Eclipse Platform).

At the risk of being snarky, I'll go ahead and say that just like JavaFX, the only times I ever hear about NetBeans is during JavaOne or from Sun employees...

From my experience, NetBeans has been reduced to a minuscule niche compared to IDEA and Eclipse.

--
Cédric

[Tom Hawtin]

On Sep 20, 7:33 pm, Kevin Wright <kev.lee.wri...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Could this be true?  The twitterverse certainly seems to think so right now.
> Scala, Clojure, Groovy, JRuby, Jython, etc. all invited to the party!
>
> So the question is; who'll be first with a good DSL substitute for Fx
> Script?  The race is on...

I think we know which language is #1.

Tom Hawtin

[Casper Bang]

About time... now let's get some resources back to core Java.

On Sep 20, 8:33 pm, Kevin Wright <kev.lee.wri...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Could this be true?  The twitterverse certainly seems to think so right now.
> Scala, Clojure, Groovy, JRuby, Jython, etc. all invited to the party!
>
> So the question is; who'll be first with a good DSL substitute for Fx
> Script?  The race is on...
>
> --
> Kevin Wright
>

> mail / gtalk / msn : kev.lee.wri...@gmail.com

[Kevin Wright]

I'd like to read this as a focus of resources on the JVM and the platform, instead of the incumbent producer of bytecode...

Only time will tell!

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[Ricky Clarkson]

Native libraries make distribution an order of magnitude more annoying.

--
Cédric

[Chris Adamson]

OK, if you guys are going to go there (relative popularities of Swing,
SWT, and JavaFX), then here's a thought experiment. Start with the
fact that there are already 80,000 Android apps in the market.

1. Are there more Android apps in the wild than apps built with Swing,
SWT, JavaFX, or Java ME?
2. Are there more Android apps in the wild than apps built with Swing,
SWT, JavaFX, *and* Java ME, combined?
3. Does the number of Android apps in the wild outnumber apps built
with Swing, SWT, JavaFX, *and* Java ME, combined, by more than one
order of magnitude?

Your mileage may vary. I suspect 1 and 2 are true, and 3 very well may
be.

Joe said something about this a few episodes back that motivated me to
blog a riff on this thought. He basically asserted that Android has
"won", and I don't think anyone disputes that it is already bigger,
and growing faster, than Java ME or JavaFX Mobile (if that's even its
own thing anymore). But he also plays off the idea that the tablet is
the "desktop of the future". If we assume that most tablets not called
"iPad" are going to be running Android, then Android will be filling
some of the roles currently served by Swing, SWT, JavaFX, and their
native equivalents.

Which leads to the question, does any Java UI framework other than
Android matter anymore?

-Chris

On Sep 20, 5:12 pm, Cédric Beust ♔ <ced...@beust.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 2:07 PM, Fabrizio Giudici <
>

[Ricky Clarkson]

The ideas behind JavaFX (Functional Reactive Programming) are excellent, and it's not hard to make an implementation even for Java.  For Java you get to choose between compiler magic, runtime magic and a metric crapton of anonymous classes, but it's perfectly doable.

[Kevin Wright]

Being Java, I have a worrying suspicion which of those three it might be...

On 20 September 2010 23:11, Ricky Clarkson <ricky.c...@gmail.com> wrote:

The ideas behind JavaFX (Functional Reactive Programming) are excellent, and it's not hard to make an implementation even for Java.  For Java you get to choose between compiler magic, runtime magic and a metric crapton of anonymous classes, but it's perfectly doable.

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[Fabrizio Giudici]

On 9/20/10 14:12 , Cédric Beust ♔ wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 2:07 PM, Fabrizio Giudici

> <fabrizio...@tidalwave.it <mailto:fabrizio...@tidalwave.it>>

> wrote:
>
> In any case, the large increase of adoption of the NetBeans
> Platform in the industry is related to the fact that many don't
> like SWT (and hence the Eclipse Platform).
>
>
> At the risk of being snarky, I'll go ahead and say that just like
> JavaFX, the only times I ever hear about NetBeans is during JavaOne or
> from Sun employees...
>
> From my experience, NetBeans has been reduced to a minuscule niche
> compared to IDEA and Eclipse.
>

The spoof of the day. There are plenty of industrial adopters of the
Platform listed on the NetBeans website, so you could probably just take
the time to have a look before writing nonsense.

[Michael Neale]

it's dead jim.

This is swing2 - which they realy should have talked to the one
remaining user (Jetbrains) about requirements before spending
bazillions wasted on javafx.

> > javaposse+...@googlegroups.com<javaposse%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups .com>
> > .

[Ricky Clarkson]

To be fair, Cédric was talking from his experience and said so.

I see questions about Netbeans from newbie Java programmers in freenode's ##java, and my co-worker uses it for one project out of habit (Eclipse for the others, he has no taste!).  Other than that the only contact I have with Netbeans is deleting the ridiculous GroupLayout code people generate with it.

--

[Josh Juneau]

In session right now about using alternate VM languages for coding JavaFX...it is pretty nice.  JRuby demo looks slick.

Josh Juneau

june...@gmail.com

http://jj-blogger.blogspot.com

http://www.jythonpodcast.com

Twitter ID:  javajuneau

[Cédric Beust ♔]

Fabrizio,

On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 3:58 PM, Fabrizio Giudici <fabrizio...@tidalwave.it> wrote:

 

At the risk of being snarky, I'll go ahead and say that just like JavaFX, the only times I ever hear about NetBeans is during JavaOne or from Sun employees...

From my experience, NetBeans has been reduced to a minuscule niche compared to IDEA and Eclipse.

The spoof of the day. There are plenty of industrial adopters of the Platform listed on the NetBeans website, so you could probably just take the time to have a look before writing nonsense.

I didn't really expect a different reaction from a member of the "NetBeans Dream Team" :-)

To me, the fact that a technology goes through the trouble of listing users on their web site is usually an indication that this technology is close to dead (take a look at the Jini wiki for another funny example).

Successful technologies don't need to list their users because there are so many of them.

Anyway, I understand that unlike me, you have a vested interest in the subject so I don't expect you to agree with my assessment.

--
Cédric

[Kevin Wright]

Oh, I'm curious now... What languages are they demoing?

[Josh Juneau]

Demoing jruby, clojure, and scala ( haven't gotten there yet).  Both jruby and clojure look slick with javafx.

Josh Juneau

june...@gmail.com

http://jj-blogger.blogspot.com

http://www.jythonpodcast.com

Twitter ID:  javajuneau

[Serge Boulay]

JavaFx 2.0 roadmap posted.

 

http://javafx.com/roadmap/

 

 

On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 2:33 PM, Kevin Wright <kev.lee...@gmail.com> wrote:

Could this be true?  The twitterverse certainly seems to think so right now.

Scala, Clojure, Groovy, JRuby, Jython, etc. all invited to the party!

So the question is; who'll be first with a good DSL substitute for Fx Script?  The race is on...

--
Kevin Wright

mail / gtalk / msn : kev.lee...@gmail.com

pulse / skype: kev.lee.wright
twitter: @thecoda

[Augusto Sellhorn]

The whole "look like native apps" was a big waste of time, as the
trend has been for quite a while to create custom UIs. Nobody cares
that their Flex apps don't look like native apps, or that Google Apps
on your desktop look quite different from anything else you have. Sun
chasing perfect platform fidelity was a waste of time.

The irony to me is that Eclipse looks less like a native app to me
than something like Netbeans. It's also a step back in UI programming,
I mean, really the last time I had to deallocate color resources was
when I was doing Xt programming for X. We're in 2010 now.

Augusto

On Sep 20, 4:49 pm, Cédric Beust ♔ <ced...@beust.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 1:39 PM, Jess Holle <je...@ptc.com> wrote:

> >  Well if they give JavaFX a *really* nice Java API so one can use it from

> > Java as easily as Swing, then there's nothing more compelling about SWT due
> > to this announcement.
>
> > SWT has no point over Swing at this point (vs. when it was originally

> > created) unless you or your users are *really *hung up on widgets or fonts
> > tracking the native platforms *perfectly*.  Some of us really and truly

[Josh McDonald]

Heh... You should write some iPhone code... [dealloc]'ing is all we do it seems sometimes :)

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[Neil Bartlett]

Sigh. Yes, it's 2010, and we're *still* having pointless SWT vs Swing
debates.

Well, not really debates. Just the same old warhorses reiterating
their entrenched arguments.

* SWT exists and people are using it. Deal with it.
* Swing exists and people are using it. Deal with it.
* JavaFX exists and... um... may be something we have to deal with in
the future.

Neil

On Sep 21, 1:45 am, Augusto Sellhorn <augusto.sellh...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[Jess Holle]

On 9/20/2010 3:49 PM, Cédric Beust ♔ wrote:

  Just give us a decent UI that runs on any desktop OS without any extra native libraries, etc (which kills the notion of SWT immediately)

How so? Swing uses native libraries as well (well, AWT does). They are just implementing the UI at a different level than SWT.

The whole "native libraries are evil" thing died more than ten years ago.

Swing uses native libraries *but* they're a built in part of Java SE and part and parcel of having a Java SE implementation.

Native libraries outside this *are* evil for anyone who deals with more than a couple of platforms.  They're a royal PITA for client work in this case.

and a reasonable API (which Swing has in my book).  The rest of the Eclipse RCP might be nice -- but it's "contaminated" by SWT for those who want no part of SWT.

Sounds like a pretty arbitrary and emotional position, but whatever works for you.

It's not arbitrary in that SWT takes too much work to deploy, run, troubleshoot, etc, when you have to support numerous platforms.  There really is a realm for "works well enough everywhere" UIs -- that's really the entirety of HTML/JavaScript UIs, for starters.

Back to the original topic, if JavaFX's rendering engine and APIs are rolled into Java SE implementations than that would be yet another reason to stay away from SWT.  If JavaFX is just yet another add-on library requiring its own add-on native libraries, then it's still on no worse ground than SWT.

--
Jess Holle

[Roland Tepp]

Well, that's dissapointing...

JavaFX script was acttually pretty neat language in and of itself.
If they'd cleaned up the full interaction story with Java proper
(which, it seems they are currently are focusing on), then I would see
no problem having FX script as a separate (native) language of writing
JavaFX ui logic in -- in fact I would rather prefer that than falling
back to the clunky old java boilerplate...

On 20 sept, 21:33, Kevin Wright <kev.lee.wri...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Could this be true?  The twitterverse certainly seems to think so right now.
> Scala, Clojure, Groovy, JRuby, Jython, etc. all invited to the party!
>
> So the question is; who'll be first with a good DSL substitute for Fx
> Script?  The race is on...
>
> --
> Kevin Wright
>

> mail / gtalk / msn : kev.lee.wri...@gmail.com

[Carl Jokl]

Would it be dropped completely or could it be pushed out into
opensource to continue development but not within Oracle?

It does seem that a lot of JavaFX is similar to Groovy anyway with one
of the most key differentiators being the binding capability. Given
how much hyper there has been about the ability to bind in JavaFX and
this been a big productivity win it would seem a strange move to just
throw all that out. Still given the chain of blows that the Java world
seems to have been hit with maybe I should just brace for more of
these kinds of disappointments.

[Casper Bang]

The syntax was interesting, but I believe it was a mistake to narrow
it down to a graphics DSL and targeting Applet 2.0. If they had
generalized the language and pushed it as a much needed revolutionary
step a la Java Next Gen, then I believe the Java space would've looked
very different today and, for one thing, we would not see a
fragmentation of mainstream (corporate) developers and elite (alpha-
geeks) as with Scala.

[Carl Jokl]

I think JavaFX script was being pushed as a potential Java NG in some
circles given how many features which people had wanted in Java were
being pushed into JavaFX Script. I think some of those involved with
it would have liked it to have been used beyond just Applets.

That said on the competing side, Silverlight just uses the plain
old .Net languages to work and seems to be receiving praise. The only
real difference for Silverlight is a cut down selection of .Net
library classes and a different threading model (with an emphasis on
forcing expensive or time consuming operations like HTTP to be handled
asynchronously.

Has Silverlight in the .Net world gained more traction than JavaFX in
the Java community.

When it comes to JavaFX I like the technology but my main criticism is
just that it seems buggy and a bit unstable still right now. Not to
mention the speed of new versions coming out is a lot slower than I
might have hoped.

I wonder if there is difficulty getting JavaFX to move forward on the
original trajectory given so many prominent Sun people who may have
been involved with it have since jumped ship and Oracle is left to try
and fill the gaps with dull corporate zombie types who won't want to
do anything bold or risky.

[Kevin Wright]

If I was oracle, then I'd probably be thinking:

- offload the Script stuff (including support costs) to other JVM languages, these being more than capable

- push JavaFX as the next-gen swing library

- Leverage the lawsuit vs. Google to get JavaFX used as the core of a future (Java licensed) android GUI

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[Casper Bang]

> Has Silverlight in the .Net world gained more traction than JavaFX in
> the Java community.

Oh I would say definitely. At least you can find people outside
the .NET community who have heard of, and tried, Silverlight, whereas
the same is not the case with JavaFX. The massive weight of the JRE
has it's share of blame too I think, Silverlight is a relatively tight
subset and being .NET, relies on a simpler conservative JIT rather
than a more complex interpretation + aggressive JIT model.

My point is, most modern day programming revolves around managing
object hierarchies, whereby JavaFX Script syntax and binding model
could be handy beyond UI stuff.

[CKoerner]

Silverlight is also what devs will use for Windows Phone 7 development.

[Kevin Wright]

Slides from the talk are available as a PDF here: http://jonathangiles.net/blog/?p=916

On 21 September 2010 11:59, CKoerner <ches...@gmail.com> wrote:

Silverlight is also what devs will use for Windows Phone 7 development.

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[Craig]

I dont get it. I can't find anything official that states that JavaFX
script is going to be dropped or even deprecated. The roadmap talks
about the introduction of the Java based APIs, but not in lieu of
JavaFX script?

Cheers
Craig

On Sep 21, 2:33 am, Kevin Wright <kev.lee.wri...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Could this be true?  The twitterverse certainly seems to think so right now.
> Scala, Clojure, Groovy, JRuby, Jython, etc. all invited to the party!
>
> So the question is; who'll be first with a good DSL substitute for Fx
> Script?  The race is on...
>

> --
> Kevin Wright
>
> mail / gtalk / msn : kev.lee.wri...@gmail.com

[Fabrizio Giudici]

On 9/20/10 14:32 , Casper Bang wrote:
> About time... now let's get some resources back to core Java.
Given that only the language support is dropped, somebody has got to
tell us how many resources does he suppose will be saved...

[Fabrizio Giudici]

On 9/20/10 15:11 , Chris Adamson wrote:
>
> Which leads to the question, does any Java UI framework other than
> Android matter anymore?

iPads might be the desktop of the future for the end customers. I would
have tons of doubts for what concerns industrial application (where
frankly they don't make sense in most places).

[Casper Bang]

I just think they decided, given the current adoption rate (or lack
of), it's not worth pouring more resources into the language part.
Also, it's probably fair to say that JavaFX generally consumed far
more resources than the non UI developers would've liked. And
personally having used some of the tech which got squeezed out, I am
left with wondering whether beans binding and app framework will not
experience a renascence?

On Sep 21, 3:36 pm, Fabrizio Giudici <fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it>
wrote:

> Fabrizio.Giud...@tidalwave.it

[Fabrizio Giudici]

On 9/21/10 06:24 , Craig wrote:
> I dont get it. I can't find anything official that states that JavaFX
> script is going to be dropped or even deprecated. The roadmap talks
> about the introduction of the Java based APIs, but not in lieu of
> JavaFX script?
>

What's really disappointing is that there are not precise milestones.
"2010-2011 roadmap" is too generic, and this really sounds - as Reinier
said - as the further "announcement" of JavaFX. While the decoupling
from the language is good, there are implications with a number of
further projects: for instance BeansBinding. Looking (quickly) at
Stephen Chin's + Jonathan Giles' slides I see an example of a completely
new listener e.g. for Rectangle (addChangedListener() with a
BooleanListener) in a place that could probably work with the existing
PropertyChangeListener. I suppose there's a reason for this, but this
means a departure from the bound property specs from JavaBeans. How the
thing will be integrated with existing Swing components? Furthermore, I
see an extreme fuzziness in all the announcements, as there is really
nothing concrete now, even the APIs. This is for sure extremely
DISAPPOINTING. The ridiculous has reached higher peaks for what concerns
the JWebPane component in particular. I hope that other presentations
will give some real deadline.

Now, looking at the list of postponed features for Java 7 (unfortunately
everything mixes, to increase the chaos) I see that JXDatePicker has
been postponed. I'm not against the fact that it has been postponed, I
think that there's no mean in th point. I mean: serious industrial
adopters of Swing are using SwingX in full (or at least for a
conspicuous number of widgets), since Swing by itself is not enough.
Only the fact that somebody is *discussing* whether to integrate
JXDatePicker in 2012 is absurd. Either you discuss about integrating a
larger number of widgets of SwingX, or you decide that SwingX will live
as an external library. Integrating a single component won't change the
life of nobody.

--
Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager
Tidalwave s.a.s. - "We make Java work. Everywhere."
java.net/blog/fabriziogiudici - www.tidalwave.it/people

Fabrizio...@tidalwave.it

[Fabrizio Giudici]

On 9/20/10 16:18 , Cédric Beust ♔ wrote:
> Fabrizio,
>
> On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 3:58 PM, Fabrizio Giudici

> <fabrizio...@tidalwave.it <mailto:fabrizio...@tidalwave.it>>

> wrote:
>
>
> At the risk of being snarky, I'll go ahead and say that just
> like JavaFX, the only times I ever hear about NetBeans is
> during JavaOne or from Sun employees...
>
> >From my experience, NetBeans has been reduced to a minuscule
> niche compared to IDEA and Eclipse.
>
> The spoof of the day. There are plenty of industrial adopters of
> the Platform listed on the NetBeans website, so you could probably
> just take the time to have a look before writing nonsense.
>
>
> I didn't really expect a different reaction from a member of the
> "NetBeans Dream Team" :-)

Cedric, the NBDT is made by people not paid by Oracle. It is made by
people that have a pre-existing interest in the technology because they
work on it, and as I said there's plenty of large corporate customers
working on it. BTW, the NBDT is the representative of the open source
community interested in the NetBeans Platform. Is this the kind of
respect that Google reserves for open source communities? :-)

Re: "successful technologies don't list customers", this sounds as
nonsense. I understand that the current legal war makes probably Google
personnel to speak politics instead of engineering, and that Google
employees are somewhat limited on what they can say, so I won't replicate.

For what concerns the reference "in my experience", as quoted by Ricky,
that's don't make sense too. I could easily say and prove that e.g. in
Italy almost nobody knows Android, but this holds true only in a
specific place and time, and doesn't have any value for inferring about
Android popularity in other parts of the world, or in Italy's future.

[Ricky Clarkson]

"in my experience" makes sense, but yes, you can argue that Cedric's experience doesn't count for anything if you like.  In my experience, Spizzico pizza is better than the pizza in half the restaurants in Italy.  My experience is pretty small, but that doesn't make the sentence less true.

--

[Fabrizio Giudici]

On 9/21/10 07:53 , Ricky Clarkson wrote:
> "in my experience" makes sense, but yes, you can argue that Cedric's
> experience doesn't count for anything if you like. In my experience,
> Spizzico pizza is better than the pizza in half the restaurants in
> Italy. My experience is pretty small, but that doesn't make the
> sentence less true.
>

BTW, a gentle "bird" pointed me that Cedric now works for LinkedIn! I
missed that (Cedric, your Wikipedia page is not up to date). I supposed
to have Cedric's blog on my aggregator, but Thunderbird is driving me
crazy. Of course, this makes most of my previous post irrelevant. Ricky
summed up clearly that anecdotal experience just should not be inferred
to anything general.

[Kevin Wright]

According to his wiki page, WebLogic was recently acquired by BEA.

So yes, I think we can safely say that it needs updating.

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[clay]

On Sep 21, 5:43 am, Carl Jokl <carl.j...@gmail.com> wrote:

> That said on the competing side, Silverlight just uses the plain
> old .Net languages to work and seems to be receiving praise.

Silverlight = Write interface in XAML. Write other code (the "code
behind" in Silverlight lingo) in your language of choice
(realistically ~90% of the time it's C# and 8% of the time it's
VB.NET)

JavaFX = Write interface in FX script. Write other application logic
in your language of choice (typically Java but can be Scala or
whatever)

This really isn't (wasn't) a big difference.

> Has Silverlight in the .Net world gained more traction than JavaFX in
> the Java community.

Definitely. As a developer I've gotten lots of employment inquiries
regarding Silverlight work, while JavaFX is unheard of (server-side
Java is also very common).

On the other hand Silverlight hasn't seen much traction in the
consumer space. Someone said that no one has heard of JavaFX outside
of JavaOne and Oracle employees and JavaFX book authors; Silverlight
is in a similar situation. Outside of the big Microsoft sponsored
promotions like the Netflix Win/Mac client or the Olympics deal or a
few smaller projects that Microsoft-centric developers rave about,
I've never seen or heard of a product using Silverlight.

I hear of new successful products all the time using HTML or iOS or
Flash, and even a few desktop Java and .NET products, but both
Silverlight and JavaFX are definite rarities.

[Casper Bang]

> This really isn't (wasn't) a big difference.

Well except in the case of Silverlight, developers did not have to
learn a new syntax nor wait for the tool-chain to catch up.

> I hear of new successful products all the time using HTML or iOS or
> Flash, and even a few desktop Java and .NET products, but both
> Silverlight and JavaFX are definite rarities.

I agree, both aren't exactly success stories. Microsoft has the WP7
card up their sleeve though. Similarly JavaFX Script could've been
wonderful on Android, the current XML markup coupled with the weird R
file and associated manual casting is just not worthy of a modern
mobile stack anno 2010.

[clay]

On Sep 20, 5:11 pm, Chris Adamson <invalidn...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Which leads to the question, does any Java UI framework other than
> Android matter anymore?

This is the ultimate answer.

The mass market consumer has been moving to iOS/Android/web and the
successful UI toolsets will need to follow those runtimes.

Of course there is still need for workstation/server style desktop
software on Win/Mac/Linux.

[Cédric Beust ♔]

On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 11:25 AM, Casper Bang <caspe...@gmail.com> wrote:

I agree, both aren't exactly success stories. Microsoft has the WP7
card up their sleeve though. Similarly JavaFX Script could've been
wonderful on Android, the current XML markup coupled with the weird R
file and associated manual casting is just not worthy of a modern
mobile stack anno 2010.

You can't really avoid casting when you're reading a Java hierarchy off an XML file. The important part is to limit this casting to its bare minimum (getting the root), and Android does exactly that.

I'd argue that Android's R system, which provides static type safety for resources, is actually pretty solid. I can't count how many times I've had regular Java code crash at runtime because a .properties or .xml file could not be found... This can't happen on Android: the compiler will tell you right away.

--
Cédric

[Casper Bang]

> You can't really avoid casting when you're reading a Java hierarchy off an
> XML file. The important part is to limit this casting to its bare minimum
> (getting the root), and Android does exactly that.

I understand the impedance mismatch of deserialization, but it's still
a smell. :) The port of Guice (RoboGuice) turns this around and avoids
it through DI.

> I'd argue that Android's R system, which provides static type safety for
> resources, is actually pretty solid. I can't count how many times I've had
> regular Java code crash at runtime because a .properties or .xml file could
> not be found... This can't happen on Android: the compiler will tell you
> right away.

Well yes, but then you are tied to the tool support of the Eclipse
plugin - it's one of the significant hindrances from using other
IDE's. I've often wanted a sort of dynamic Enum for the purpose (since
same problem exists when you deal with I18N keys), but it needs to be
baked into the language rather than be dependent on IDE/compiler.

[Cédric Beust ♔]

On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 12:46 PM, Casper Bang <caspe...@gmail.com> wrote:

> You can't really avoid casting when you're reading a Java hierarchy off an
> XML file. The important part is to limit this casting to its bare minimum
> (getting the root), and Android does exactly that.

I understand the impedance mismatch of deserialization, but it's still
a smell. :) The port of Guice (RoboGuice) turns this around and avoids
it through DI.

I'm not familiar with this effort, but either it still uses XML, in which case I don't see how it can avoid the casts I was mentioning in my previous message, or it uses 100% Java to specify your user interface, in which case:

• It's 100% statically typed with no casts, but it forces you to write your user interface in Java (which is painful, see below).
• It's not really comparable to Android's R approach, so it's neither better nor worse, just different.

I am the first to admit that designing interfaces in XML is not optimal, but I've recently done a good amount of Eclipse plug-in development (SWT + JFace) and I can tell you that specifying user interfaces in Java is actually worse.

Eclipse's next version is moving toward an XAML approach to design user interfaces, which I'm really looking forward to. Let's hope they can pull it off.

 

> I'd argue that Android's R system, which provides static type safety for
> resources, is actually pretty solid. I can't count how many times I've had
> regular Java code crash at runtime because a .properties or .xml file could
> not be found... This can't happen on Android: the compiler will tell you
> right away.

Well yes, but then you are tied to the tool support of the Eclipse
plugin - it's one of the significant hindrances from using other
IDE's. I've often wanted a sort of dynamic Enum for the purpose (since
same problem exists when you deal with I18N keys), but it needs to be
baked into the language rather than be dependent on IDE/compiler.

It's not "tied" to Eclipse, you can build everything from the command line (and I know a lot of people do). Using Eclipse just gives you a productivity boost.

--
Cédric

[clay]

On Sep 21, 1:25 pm, Casper Bang <casper.b...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Well except in the case of Silverlight, developers did not have to
> learn a new syntax nor wait for the tool-chain to catch up.

Sure we did. I worked on a team of .NET developers using Silverlight
for the first time: we had to learn XAML, the new wildly different
layout scheme, the new control set, and brand new multithreading
model.

I've done significant programming with both Silverlight and JavaFX.
They both had learning curves and I wouldn't say either was
substantially better in that regard.

> I agree, both aren't exactly success stories. Microsoft has the WP7
> card up their sleeve though. Similarly JavaFX Script could've been

> wonderful on Android...

Yes: Runtime Relevance > Tool Quality

People are enthusiastically using Objective-C because of the iOS
platform, not out of love for the language itself or the theoretical
design of the tools themselves.

WP7 is a big strength for Silverlight, but that's more about the
significance of WP7 than the quality of Silverlight.

JavaFX, and desktop Java as a whole, is strictly limited to Win/Mac/
Linux, which basically kills it as mass market consumer platform. But
for various workstation type software it (along with Silverlight) is
still completely relevant.

[Fabrizio Giudici]

On 9/21/10 12:57 , Cédric Beust ♔ wrote:
>
>
> It's not "tied" to Eclipse, you can build everything from the command
> line (and I know a lot of people do). Using Eclipse just gives you a
> productivity boost.
>
>

While I agree with Casper on the DI thing, Cédric is right: I'm using
NetBeans + Maven and the thing works fine.

[Casper Bang]

> Sure we did. I worked on a team of .NET developers using Silverlight
> for the first time: we had to learn XAML, the new wildly different
> layout scheme, the new control set, and brand new multithreading
> model.

But it was still just XML, with a schema attached. And the code-behind
still C# and VB.

> I've done significant programming with both Silverlight and JavaFX.
> They both had learning curves and I wouldn't say either was
> substantially better in that regard.

Fair enough.

> WP7 is a big strength for Silverlight, but that's more about the
> significance of WP7 than the quality of Silverlight.

Well I still see it as a quality of Silverlight, that the programming
model and probably most of the WPF subset, is immediately recognizable
to a very large crowd of .NET people. Even Android is less
approachable, since it represents some fairly radical new ideas... an
R file for statically encapsulating resources, Apache libraries rather
than JSE, missing BufferedImage, no Enum support etc. So while Android
is clearly a hybrid/non-sanctioned subset/fork, it looks like WP7 will
be a more complete story. Could you imagine the enum removed from WP7?

[Cédric Beust ♔]

On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 2:44 PM, Casper Bang <caspe...@gmail.com> wrote:

no Enum support etc.

Uh? Where did you get that idea?

--
Cédric

[Casper Bang]

Romain Guy told me some time ago it was left out for performance
reasons. There's Enum support now?

On Sep 21, 11:48 pm, Cédric Beust ♔ <ced...@beust.com> wrote:

[Casper Bang]

Ah I see it has been added since, though still not exactly
recommended:
http://developer.android.com/guide/practices/design/performance.html#avoid_enums

[Cédric Beust ♔]

On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 2:58 PM, Casper Bang <caspe...@gmail.com> wrote:

Ah I see it has been added since, though still not exactly
recommended:
http://developer.android.com/guide/practices/design/performance.html#avoid_enums

Correct.

It's been there pretty much since day one, though, as far as I can remember.

--
Cédric

[Cédric Beust ♔]

2010/9/21 Cédric Beust ♔ <ced...@beust.com>

By the way, the point that I wanted to make is that Java developers who decide to learn Android are never really handicapped by the Java aspect (which is 99% compatible with Java SE).

Learning Android does have a learning curve, though, like all big software technologies.

--
Cédric

[Casper Bang]

> It's been there pretty much since day one, though, as far as I can remember.

Ehh are you sure about that? It's no more than a year ago Roman
informed me "enums are very costly" and "won't be supported in the
near future":
http://groups.google.com/group/android-beginners/browse_thread/thread/5f130bfbc51669aa/dab60f17e1d1fa19?lnk=gst&q=Enum#dab60f17e1d1fa19

[Steven Herod]

So, JavaFX Script is dead, long live JavaFX.

On the plus side, there are a heap of good things about this. It
stops the 'why the new language' debates, it means people with
enthusiasm for Groovy/Scala/Java will get on board with the API,
tooling deficiencies will go away (if you stick with Java), we solve
some inter-operability issues between java/javafx, yada yada yada.

On the downside, its September 2010, JavaFX was released this time 2
years ago, it's going to be 'the second half of 2011' before 2.0 is
released. And if they deliver like the have over the past 2 years.
Well, I believe it when I see it.

[Steven Herod]

Actually, I should temper my statement now I've read this:
http://fxexperience.com/

The best part... 'we're hiring' and a list of positions. That alone
is different to what has happened the past few years.

Hope springs eternal.

[Miroslav Pokorny]

By killing off JavaFX script this must be the first time Sun has ever made some source code of today uncompilable in the future.

[Jess Holle]

Sun?  Who/where's Sun?  There is no such creature now :-)

On 9/22/2010 8:32 AM, Miroslav Pokorny wrote:

By killing off JavaFX script this must be the first time Sun has ever made some source code of today uncompilable in the future.

[Casper Bang]

No, it has to be said, Oracle seems less willing to just throw stuff
up against the wall and see what sticks - something that really did
not work very well for Sun.

On Sep 22, 3:32 pm, Miroslav Pokorny <miroslav.poko...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[Fabrizio Giudici]

On 9/22/10 06:32 , Miroslav Pokorny wrote:
> By killing off JavaFX script this must be the first time Sun has ever
> made some source code of today uncompilable in the future.
>

Since JavaFX Script is now useless for them, I suppose they should not
object to releasing the entire thing in FLOSS (I supposed it was
already, but it's has been pointed out that there are missing pieces).

[Fabrizio Giudici]

On 9/21/10 15:01 , Cédric Beust ♔ wrote:
>
>
> 2010/9/21 Cédric Beust ♔ <ced...@beust.com <mailto:ced...@beust.com>>

>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 2:58 PM, Casper Bang
> <caspe...@gmail.com <mailto:caspe...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Ah I see it has been added since, though still not exactly
> recommended:
> http://developer.android.com/guide/practices/design/performance.html#avoid_enums
>
>
> Correct.
>
> It's been there pretty much since day one, though, as far as I can
> remember.
>
>
> By the way, the point that I wanted to make is that Java developers
> who decide to learn Android are never really handicapped by the Java
> aspect (which is 99% compatible with Java SE).
>

False. If you have some code for the manipulation of images, just to
make an example, you're killed and you have to rewrite everything. It
has been already said and it's a matter of facts, so I don't see the
point in continuously denying it.

[Cédric Beust ♔]

2010/9/22 Fabrizio Giudici <fabrizio...@tidalwave.it>

By the way, the point that I wanted to make is that Java developers who decide to learn Android are never really handicapped by the Java aspect (which is 99% compatible with Java SE).

False. If you have some code for the manipulation of images, just to make an example, you're killed and you have to rewrite everything. It has been already said and it's a matter of facts, so I don't see the point in continuously denying it.

What part of "99%" did you miss? :-)

Look on the Android forums and compare the number of people who complain about Android "not being Java" and the number people asking Android API questions. I'm guessing 99.99% is probably more accurate...

--
Cédric

[Ricky Clarkson]

I'd say AWT+Swing consititute more than 1% of the code that's in the Java libraries and the JVM, but haven't measured this.

2010/9/22 Cédric Beust ♔ <ced...@beust.com>

[clay]

After digesting this shocker, I think I understand what they are
doing.

The primary motivation behind the JavaFX project is apparently to
support the other Oracle teams and product lines that wanted a better
cross platform UI platform, and I'm guessing that those teams didn't
like being forced into using FX script. But Oracle actually seems
serious about using JavaFX in their important products.

This is a real downer, although not unexpected, for everyone who
invested into building an FX script skill set. I can't imagine a
library designed for the lowest common denominator of languages
working as well as having the tight integration between a custom
language syntax like FX script had.

However, this might actually turn out to be a good move. As much as I
liked FX script, there is some real momentum in the alt-language JVM
space, and being open to all of that, especially with the FX team
offically making some level of effort to accommodate those languages,
might actually be better than being tied to a single language.

Also did you notice this on Amy Fowler's blog, "A sleeper detail from
Thomas Kurian’s keynote is that NetBeans will be the Java development
IDE of choice going forward".

[Fabrizio Giudici]

2010/9/22 Cédric Beust ♔ <ced...@beust.com <mailto:ced...@beust.com>>

>
> What part of "99%" did you miss? :-)
>
> Look on the Android forums and compare the number of people who
> complain about Android "not being Java" and the number people
> asking Android API questions. I'm guessing 99.99% is probably more
> accurate...
>

Considering that most of people look as complete newbies, this doesn't
sound as a good metric :-) And I wonder whether counting the number of
people complaining about how the Market sucks is a good way to conclude
that the Market sucks :-)

BTW, Cedric, are you at J1? I'd like to offer you a beer :-)

[Paul King]

Ditto for the beer ...

--

[Jan Goyvaerts™]

I was wondering about the other JavaFX sessions at JavaOne: Do they still present something with the script syntax ? (If so, who would still go there ?) Or are they all about the to-be-expected API ?

[Jo Voordeckers]

Most sessions are using the JavaFX Script 1.3 syntax, some sessions by Oracle employees show an early version of the upcoming JavaFX Java APIs, but these are very likely to change before they'll be published in early access (Q1 or Q2 2011).

On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 8:57 PM, Jan Goyvaerts™ <java.a...@gmail.com> wrote:

I was wondering about the other JavaFX sessions at JavaOne: Do they still present something with the script syntax ? (If so, who would still go there ?) Or are they all about the to-be-expected API ?

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[Josh Juneau]

I attended JavaFX 2.0 session today and someone asked what to do if
their company wanted to start a javafx project on Monday. No really
good answer to that since fx script will be of no use once 2.0
arrives. The fx team said that fx script is open source and could be
brought forward, but after evaluation Oracle decided that it would
take too many hours to bring forward to the new API.

On the contrary, I like the idea of using JRuby, Jython, Groovy, or
the like for developing with the new API.

On 9/23/10, Jo Voordeckers <jo.voor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Most sessions are using the JavaFX Script 1.3 syntax, some sessions by
> Oracle employees show an early version of the upcoming JavaFX Java APIs, but
> these are very likely to change before they'll be published in early access
> (Q1 or Q2 2011).
>
> On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 8:57 PM, Jan Goyvaerts™
> <java.a...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> I was wondering about the other JavaFX sessions at JavaOne: Do they still
>> present something with the script syntax ? (If so, who would still go
>> there
>> ?) Or are they all about the to-be-expected API ?
>>
>> --
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Josh Juneau
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[Jess Holle]

My read on this answer was that you'd be best finding something else to spend your time on until around March/April 2011 -- at which point FX may be worth revisiting in an early access capacity.

If that's at the top of your "to-do" list, then that's a pickle :-)

--
Jess Holle

On 9/23/2010 10:14 PM, Josh Juneau wrote:

I attended JavaFX 2.0 session today and someone asked what to do if
their company wanted to start a javafx project on Monday.  No really
good answer to that since fx script will be of no use once 2.0
arrives. The fx team said that fx script is open source and could be
brought forward, but after evaluation Oracle decided that it would
take too many hours to bring forward to the new API.

On the contrary, I like the idea of using JRuby, Jython, Groovy, or
the like for developing with the new API.



On 9/23/10, Jo Voordeckers <jo.voor...@gmail.com> wrote:

Most sessions are using the JavaFX Script 1.3 syntax, some sessions by
Oracle employees show an early version of the upcoming JavaFX Java APIs, but
these are very likely to change before they'll be published in early access
(Q1 or Q2 2011).

On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 8:57 PM, Jan Goyvaerts�
<java.a...@gmail.com>wrote:

[Reinier Zwitserloot]

As Paul Jones mentioned in this thread:
http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse/browse_thread/thread/f572917d7173fd43

Nothing was said at J1 about what usage of the JavaFX Libraries in
java would look like. You'd think that certain aspects of the JavaFX
libraries might need some language support; in particular, properties.

Maybe one good thing coming out of the end of Oracle officially
supporting JavaFX, is that it'll push for properties in java itself.

[Jan Goyvaerts™]

... as for closures.

The question is when. There's a long road(map) ahead.

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