No more SOA for NetBeans?

[kibitzer]

This post is extremely disheartening -- basically, it looks like the
NetBeans team will no longer develop the SOA features:
http://forums.netbeans.org/post-56916.html.

I can only see this as the beginning of Oracle pushing people towards
jDeveloper and the Oracle suite. Not surprising but extremely
disappointing.

[Reinier Zwitserloot]

I always thought Service-Oriented-Architecture was a a devteam take-a-
break bullshit word.

You know, something you tell the brass so they get off your back for a
month or two, giving the team time to spend some much needed time in
feature-freeze, cleaning up stuff, refactoring code to be more
maintainable for the future, and turning hacked together workarounds
into proper fixes. Once you're done, you tell management you have the
exact same thing you had before, except it's now all smoother and more
maintainable (true), and that it is because "it now has more
SOA" (which is false, as SOA is meaningless blather).

I guess I'm wrong.


On a total sidenote, Oracle has not acquired sun yet. The notion that
netbeans is out to get you to move towards for-pay oracle products
now, well short than a year after a sale to oracle was likely, strikes
me as extremely paranoid behaviour that is obviously not true. The
fact that some (ex-)netbeans developers and many sun engineers read
these forums only adds to the extreme rudeness of this kind of
paranoid rambling. Please consider that when you next post your
delusions.

[Brian Leathem]

On 10/12/09 8:10 PM, Reinier Zwitserloot wrote:
> I always thought Service-Oriented-Architecture was a a devteam take-a-
> break bullshit word.
>
> You know, something you tell the brass so they get off your back for a
> month or two, giving the team time to spend some much needed time in
> feature-freeze, cleaning up stuff, refactoring code to be more
> maintainable for the future, and turning hacked together workarounds
> into proper fixes. Once you're done, you tell management you have the
> exact same thing you had before, except it's now all smoother and more
> maintainable (true), and that it is because "it now has more
> SOA" (which is false, as SOA is meaningless blather).
>

I think a distinction needs to be made between well
modularized/refactored code that is architected to provide services; vs.
"SOA". I interpret "SOA" these days as an architecture that uses things
like BPEL and workflow engines to wire various service endpoints
together. I'd say the former is what you are describing, and the latter
is what the tool support was providing.

> On a total sidenote, Oracle has not acquired sun yet. The notion that
> netbeans is out to get you to move towards for-pay oracle products
> now, well short than a year after a sale to oracle was likely, strikes
> me as extremely paranoid behaviour that is obviously not true. The
> fact that some (ex-)netbeans developers and many sun engineers read
> these forums only adds to the extreme rudeness of this kind of
> paranoid rambling. Please consider that when you next post your
> delusions.
>
>

While I agree one should be considerate when posting to public forums, I
can sympathize with the OP. It's tough when you build a reliance on a
particular feature, and have that feature pulled on you without advance
notice. An alternative approach could be for Sun to continue to offer
the feature in a for-pay model, so users who depend on it can continue
to use it - and finance it's development in the process. Although I
suppose Sun would be "hanged" for using bait-and-switch tactics in that
case...

Brian

[Randinn]

>
> While I agree one should be considerate when posting to public forums, I
> can sympathize with the OP.  It's tough when you build a reliance on a
> particular feature, and have that feature pulled on you without advance
> notice.  An alternative approach could be for Sun to continue to offer
> the feature in a for-pay model, so users who depend on it can continue
> to use it - and finance it's development in the process.  Although I
> suppose Sun would be "hanged" for using bait-and-switch tactics in that
> case...
>
> Brian

There's talk of opening Netbeans (at least by Sun), they can ask for
the code and re-integrate it and quite possibly give back to the
community. There's no reason that if you like a feature you can't work
on it yourself, quite honestly it can be worked on now via plugins but
I maybe a bit far-reaching in my comments.

[kibitzer]

> The
> fact that some (ex-)netbeans developers and many sun engineers read
> these forums only adds to the extreme rudeness of this kind of
> paranoid rambling. Please consider that when you next post your
> delusions.

Dear, dear. I'm merely posting an opinion as many people have done
here before. I have seen much robust, conflicting argument with many
opinions aired on this group. My apologies if I've offended you but
you can be comforted in the knowledge that's all it is: my opinion.

[Vince O'Sullivan]

On Dec 11, 4:10 am, Reinier Zwitserloot <reini...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...giving the team time to spend some much needed time in

> feature-freeze, cleaning up stuff, refactoring code to be more
> maintainable for the future, and turning hacked together workarounds
> into proper fixes.

lol, what a concept!

[Peter Becker]

Brian Leathem wrote:
> On 10/12/09 8:10 PM, Reinier Zwitserloot wrote:
>
>> I always thought Service-Oriented-Architecture was a a devteam take-a-
>> break bullshit word.
>>
>> You know, something you tell the brass so they get off your back for a
>> month or two, giving the team time to spend some much needed time in
>> feature-freeze, cleaning up stuff, refactoring code to be more
>> maintainable for the future, and turning hacked together workarounds
>> into proper fixes. Once you're done, you tell management you have the
>> exact same thing you had before, except it's now all smoother and more
>> maintainable (true), and that it is because "it now has more
>> SOA" (which is false, as SOA is meaningless blather).
>>
>>
>
> I think a distinction needs to be made between well
> modularized/refactored code that is architected to provide services; vs.
> "SOA". I interpret "SOA" these days as an architecture that uses things
> like BPEL and workflow engines to wire various service endpoints
> together. I'd say the former is what you are describing, and the latter
> is what the tool support was providing.
>

I've heard many definitions for SOA, the only one I like is that you
look at your business in terms of business processes and then break it
down into small "services" which all have some kind of agreements around
them. Where agreements are along the lines of SLAs, i.e. include things
like availability and response times and not just the input and output
formats.

The execution can happen with web services and BPEL/workflow enignes,
but doesn't have to. In fact I have seen someone giving a talk on their
SOA architecture, which turned to be implemented to some extent in CORBA
(sic!). But with the above notion of SOA that is perfectly valid.

The problem is that most of the time people try to sell something using
the "SOA" term. You sell technology, so you bind some technology to that
term. That process somehow took over and suddenly everyone thinks "web
service", "WS-*" or even "BPEL" when the term is mentioned. I somehow
suspect is wasn't originally meant that way.

Which leads to the question: does someone have a reference for the
origin of the acronym? I once heard that it came out of Gartner, but I
can't find any proof of that.

Peter

[Reinier Zwitserloot]

Of course it's your opinion. It's the internet - what isn't?

The point is: Your opinion was very rude.

[Reinier Zwitserloot]

"There's talk of opening netbeans"?

Whatever are you on about? Netbeans is open already. Has been for
quite some time. Have a look:

http://hg.netbeans.org/

No need to ask for anything. Just import the repository and start
coding.

The forum thread referenced by the OP *SPECIFICALLY* mentions that
anybody is free to take up support of SOA, and hints that a
sufficiently well engineered and supported continuation of the SOA
plugins will be greeted with much help from team netbean and possibly
inclusion into the main branch. Team Netbeans no longer has to time to
maintain the SOA plugin as they've moved their efforts to supporting
j2ee6, which they (probably correctly) deem as resulting in more
eyeballs from the enterprise world. They don't all of a sudden decide
that they hate you and just to be mean, deep-six the SOA plugin.

If the SOA plugin was really such a big driver for big business, then
surely it is not beyond their capabilities to contribute funds and a
programmer or two to making this happen.

[Casper Bang]

I don't really see anything rude here and I understand the OP, also
having relied on JSR's which have gradually and silently morphed into
zombies. Sun engineers have had to cancel and postpone plenty of stuff
for resource reasons, this notion is apparent in many Sun lead
projects now and even in Java itself. Add to that the material Oracle
HAS come out with regarding their focus (specifically mentioning
JDeveloper as the SOA/enterprise IDE) it seems fairly cut out what's
going on. While that may not be the Sun engineers fault, it's true
that its disappointing and it would do them credit with just a little
bit more public information regarding technology liveliness.

/Casper

On Dec 11, 3:55 am, kibitzer <dunl...@gmail.com> wrote:

[kibitzer]

I am genuinely baffled and somewhat taken aback by the vitriol in this
thread. I'm not sure what it is I did wrong. Was it posting a link to
the thread on another forum? If so, my only intent there was to say,
"Hey look -- looks like no more SOA plugins, this looks official." I
certainly was not trying to hang anyone out to dry.

I guess I could outline my reasoning on this one but since the meaning
of my words has been already determined, I'm disinclined to do so.

If any sun engineers or others were hurt or upset of felt impugned by
this, I wholly and unreservedly apologise.

[Ben Schulz]

I'll quote Reinier from the UML-plugin-thread:

> Jesus, Tim. I just finished yelling at some other paranoid nutcase for
> blaming this on sun/oracle. Sit down, and listen.

So, if you're still concerned, well, I really can't help you.

With kind regards
Ben

[Brian Leathem]

On 11/12/09 5:10 PM, Ben Schulz wrote:
> I'll quote Reinier from the UML-plugin-thread:
>
>
>> Jesus, Tim. I just finished yelling at some other paranoid nutcase for
>> blaming this on sun/oracle. Sit down, and listen.
>>
> So, if you're still concerned, well, I really can't help you.
>
> With kind regards
> Ben
>

I think what Ben is saying is that if you look through Reinier's many
posts in this forum, you'll find plenty of instances where he is giving
an unreasonably excessive amount of criticism. I wouldn't take it to
heart - in fact it adds to the character of this forum in it's own way.
Kind of like the other guy who keeps threatening to expose compromising
photos of various posters. It's all becoming part of the community. I
only wish I could make it out to one of the round-ups to see it all
first hand :P

Brian

[Steven Herod]

That other guy is Michael Neale. He's clearly a pervert.

On the subject of SOA, which got flamed a few posts up, I think you
need to separate the concept of thinking of an Enterprise architecture
as a collection of Services, which has real value, from the WS-* train
wreck.

Yes, SOA is over egged, No, its not the solution the worlds ills, but
its a useful architectural approach, and its a level of abstraction, I
believe, above 'well modularised code'.

That all said, I'll admit its also pretty difficult to execute with
all the noise going on in a typical Enterprise.

[Reinier Zwitserloot]

Well, vitriol is what happens when you post paranoid horse manure. If
you'd like to avoid it in the future, don't post paranoid rantings.
Just post the scoop (officious response that SOA plugin is effectively
dead), and if you can't manage to add commentary that doesn't paint
all of sun as evil sons of bitches, then just leave it at that.

[Robert Casto]

How about you boys take this out back. I thought this was a nice place to hang out.

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[SpikyOrange]

I have read the original sun forum post, now I have read this post, I
can't see what was so rude in the initial posting... The first
paragraph references the news of some major functionality no lover
being supporte in netbeans, this feels like big news - even though I
have never used this features.

The 2nd paragraph is speculation, most likely inaccurate, premature
and unfortunate, but I think opinions should not detract from the news
that features are no longer supported?

I don't believe for a second that the post was meant harmfully.

Rob

On Dec 13, 1:47 am, Robert Casto <casto.rob...@gmail.com> wrote:
> How about you boys take this out back. I thought this was a nice place to
> hang out.
>

> On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 1:45 AM, Reinier Zwitserloot <reini...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Well, vitriol is what happens when you post paranoid horse manure. If
> > you'd like to avoid it in the future, don't post paranoid rantings.
> > Just post the scoop (officious response that SOA plugin is effectively
> > dead), and if you can't manage to add commentary that doesn't paint
> > all of sun as evil sons of bitches, then just leave it at that.
>
> > On Dec 12, 1:12 am, kibitzer <dunl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I am genuinely baffled and somewhat taken aback by the vitriol in this
> > > thread. I'm not sure what it is I did wrong. Was it posting a link to
> > > the thread on another forum? If so, my only intent there was to say,
> > > "Hey look -- looks like no more SOA plugins, this looks official." I
> > > certainly was not trying to hang anyone out to dry.
>
> > > I guess I could outline my reasoning on this one but since the meaning
> > > of my words has been already determined, I'm disinclined to do so.
>
> > > If any sun engineers or others were hurt or upset of felt impugned by
> > > this, I wholly and unreservedly apologise.
>
> > > On Dec 11, 10:04 pm, Reinier Zwitserloot <reini...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Of course it's your opinion. It's the internet - what isn't?
>
> > > > The point is: Your opinion was very rude.
>
> > --
>
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "The Java Posse" group.
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> > javaposse+...@googlegroups.com<javaposse%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups .com>
> > .

[Randinn]

Um, ok ....I stand corrected.