suggestions for jaluino medium 1.3a

[Joep Suijs]

Hi guys,

After working with this board a few times, I have some suggestions for
improvement:

- the space used by the fuse is quite large. If you ask me, the fuse
could be removed all together, but if you want this protection,
consider a polyfuse, which is much smaller and restores itself
(http://www.voti.nl/winkel/catalog.html?Polyfuse-1A1) .
- The space that comes available for this, could be used to put the
7805 flat and - if you can - keep some room for a cooling body.
- Put in an alternative for C6 for the same value and size as C12
(pins closer together). C6 only needs to be this large if you have an
AC power supply and otherwise, a smaller value can be used and reduces
the number of different parts required.
- C5 and C10 are 220nF, which are much less-common then 100nF. Do they
need to be 220nF? (I guess C5 is, but I am not sure about C10). Would
it be a good idea to create the option for 2x100nF parallel?
- Give R1 and R4 same value (makes no difference for the application,
but easier when collecting components).
- Most but not all products are available at voti.nl. Maybe there is
an other supplier that has them all (and supplies them at a reasonable
rate world-wide). If not, ask Wouter to add the missing components
(3v3 regulator, fuse, maybe power connector) when we start a new
batch.
- On the silk screen, the pin names upside down (I'd say rc4 is good,
re2 is upside down) - set all text in the same direction.
- the pin names mentions should be on the outside of the connector
(like Vin etc), so you can still read them with a shield installed.
- the meaning of the jumpers would be useful. This is not on this
print, but it is on the board shown on justanotherlanguage.org... Same
applies for 'reset' function of sw2.

As an option: add a led that can be controlled by the processor. Place
it between the reset button and he usb connector so it is visible with
a board installed. Use a jumper to connect it to RE2.

My 2c

Joep

[Sebastien Lelong]

Hi Joep,

Thanks your valuable feedback, I'll fill an issue with it. About fuse, you're not the first one, Mike Watty already suggest to remove it and put a DB9 serial connector instead. As for me, I appreciate this protection, and already broke 3 or 4 fuses (yes, I know, I should double-check, blabla, but ain't fuses for the distracted of us ? :))

Thanks & Cheers

Seb

2010/7/9 Joep Suijs <jsu...@gmail.com>

--
Sébastien Lelong
http://www.sirloon.net
http://sirbot.org

[Joep Suijs]

Hi Seb,

> Mike Watty already suggest to remove it and put a
> DB9 serial connector instead.

Since computers with serial ports are getting rare, 'usb serial' takes
over. First of course with db9, but what's the point in raising ttl to
rs232, pass it via a db9 where it is transformed back to ttl again? I
guess the easy way is to put an ftdi chip on your board like arduino
does and the cheap way is to put a ttl-serial header on every board
and buy one 'ftdi cable'.

> As for me, I appreciate this protection, and
> already broke 3 or 4 fuses (yes, I know, I should double-check, blabla, but
> ain't fuses for the distracted of us ? :))

So a polyfuse would be realy worth while for you!

Cheers,
Joep

[Sunish Issac]

I had already put in my suggestions, but I would like to add an LED on board, with resitor to have a quick check.
Also why was lm 317 idea dropped for 3.3 v supply ? Its pretty easy to source than any other 3.3 regulator. I would have liked a max 232 on board too..

Sunish

[Sebastien Lelong]

Hi Joep,

2010/7/9 Joep Suijs <jsu...@gmail.com>

Hi guys,

After working with this board a few times, I have some suggestions for
improvement:

[...]

- C5 and C10 are 220nF, which are much less-common then 100nF. Do they
need to be 220nF? (I guess C5 is, but I am not sure about C10). Would
it be a good idea to create the option for 2x100nF parallel?

BTW, C5 is a 220nF *ceramic*, dedicated to USB. It may not work if it's another type, or another value (don't ask me why, some gurus told me...). About non-ceramic one, I guess 100nF may work. 220nF are quite usual here, easy to find (but PICs aren't, they know 16f877 and 16f84...).

Cheers,

Seb

[Sunish Issac]

Just another afterthought, why not add more power pins ? may be near each 8 pin connector ?
That would aid in powering any peripheral boards. Of course with a bread board its no issue.

Now that I'm with RTC's another idea is to have diode and jumper for powering the PIC through a diode with a battery. Timer1 oscillator pins are readily available for connecting a 32khz crystal and replacing the fuse with a diode would provide power mains power to the PIC.

Sunish

[Sebastien Lelong]

Hi Sunish,

2010/7/16 Sunish Issac <sunish.net@gmail.com>

Just another afterthought, why not add more power pins ? may be near each 8 pin connector ?
That would aid in powering any peripheral boards. Of course with a bread board its no issue.

This would break compatibility with current shields...

 

Now that I'm with RTC's another idea is to have diode and jumper for powering the PIC through a diode with a battery. Timer1 oscillator pins are readily available for connecting a 32khz crystal and replacing the fuse with a diode would provide power mains power to the PIC.

Maybe you can use Serial connector for this and power the board with it ? Put jumper JP3 accordingly.

 

Cheers,

Seb

Sunish

On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 1:57 PM, Sebastien Lelong <sebastie...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Joep,

2010/7/9 Joep Suijs <jsu...@gmail.com>

Hi guys,

After working with this board a few times, I have some suggestions for
improvement:

[...]

- C5 and C10 are 220nF, which are much less-common then 100nF. Do they
need to be 220nF? (I guess C5 is, but I am not sure about C10). Would
it be a good idea to create the option for 2x100nF parallel?

BTW, C5 is a 220nF *ceramic*, dedicated to USB. It may not work if it's another type, or another value (don't ask me why, some gurus told me...). About non-ceramic one, I guess 100nF may work. 220nF are quite usual here, easy to find (but PICs aren't, they know 16f877 and 16f84...).

Cheers,

Seb

[Sunish Issac]

Now the big question, should we go ahead and order the next batch of PCBs or have another board designed.

And now my opinion on jaluino...

As far as I'm concerned, I use the board more as a dev. board than anything to do with arduino shields.I found it pretty useful and am using it. My personal feel is that we can make add on boards, that can be even done on even general purpose boards. Like I made an RTC board for ds 1302 and it is working well. I have the LCD display hooked to the bread board and it has saved me quite some time as the connections, boot loader etc are perfectly working.
Just because arduino platform is there, there's no point in having everything for and like arduino. We still can make a platform, provided we have tuorials written for each and every device that we use, be it LCD, temp or humidity sensors, stepper motors, remote controls, USB, ultrasonic sensors, RTCs or whatever. JAL is sufficient or that, but still lacks proper documentation. Maybe we should get some university or college interested in JAL to do it.

Also I feel, the issue with the software part of jaluino, is that inspite of editra being available for so many platforms, its not usable to the extend that it can be installed in just one step. This is very important for a newbies and those without much OS/software background.


On a related note I've seen many arduino programs using floating point, is it possible to have jalV2 libraries do the same.

Sunish

[funlw65]

I asked for floating point support and I was sent to walk...
We can make a complete development board without a microcontroller on
it....
Jaluino is a mixed board: both dev. and application board.

Vasi(funlw65)

> sebastien.lel...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi Sunish,
>
> > 2010/7/16 Sunish Issac <sunish....@gmail.com>

[Joep Suijs]

Hi Vasi,

2010/7/19 funlw65 <fun...@gmail.com>:

> I asked for floating point support and I was sent to walk...

I recall you mentioned this, but am not sure if there was any reply.
True floating point support needs to be part of the compiler so you
should ask Kyle.
You could also write a library that does floating point operations on
data that is stored in - for instance - in dword variables. Not so
well-integrated, but can be done by anybody with enough time on his
hands.
Iirc Rob had it on his list when I started math.jal...

Joep

[funlw65]

On Jul 19, 8:31 am, Joep Suijs <jsu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Vasi,
>
> 2010/7/19 funlw65 <funl...@gmail.com>:> I asked for floating point support and I was sent to walk...

>
> I recall you mentioned this, but am not sure if there was any reply.
> True floating point support needs to be part of the compiler so you
> should ask Kyle.

> ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
> Joep

I did it but I'm not sure I did it right ... :(
And I don't remember if is on Kyle''s list of requests. As a little
more experienced user, I.m starting to see that many things can be
made on integer math and I know that floating point consume a lot of
flash and microcontroller speed.
Anyway, in real world are many applications which require a fast
floating point math and I gave an example with Segway vehicle - it is
the case also with a self balancing robot. It also have a
psychological effect on a newcomer which is in the phase of choosing a
compiler/language.

I also know (and I accept) that things are addressed only when
developers need them because of the nature of the object in cause.

Vasi(funlw65)

[funlw65]

Floating point math support it is also present in Pic Micro Pascal (a
great compiler/language if you ask me) for free :). Too bad it is only
available for Windows.

Vasi(funlw65)

[funlw65]

Hi Sebastien,

On Jul 9, 11:14 pm, Sebastien Lelong <sebastien.lel...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Hi Joep,
>

> I appreciate this protection, and
> already broke 3 or 4 fuses
>

> Thanks & Cheers
> Seb
>

What you did when you burned the fuse? It was the same thing every
time? It will help redesigning the board?
Matt is accustomed with the bread board but I burned a 16F877A there
and a dev board is very helpful for me.

Vasi(funlw65)

[Sebastien Lelong]

2010/7/19 funlw65 <fun...@gmail.com>

What you did when you burned the fuse? It was the same thing every
time? It will help redesigning the board?
Matt is accustomed with the bread board but I burned a 16F877A there
and a dev board is very helpful for me.

I basically let some kind of piece of wire over the board, or put the board onto metallic pieces, or wrong connections, or... I can't know for sure, but what I know for sure is I'm sometimes quite distracted :) and redesigning the board won't help (better try redesigning my brain ?)

Cheers

Seb

[funlw65]

Hi,

Those things I do myself, specially when I'm tired or in rush. It
helps applying nail polish on solder side of the board, few layers.
Use a transparent one, not colored (it my contain some conductive
particles). If you need to solder something, you can remove the polish
with acetone.

Vasi(funlw65)

On Jul 19, 2:03 pm, Sebastien Lelong <sebastien.lel...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> 2010/7/19 funlw65 <funl...@gmail.com>

[Sunish Issac]

Hello Seb,

Just another afterthought, why not add more power pins ? may be near each 8 pin connector ?
That would aid in powering any peripheral boards. Of course with a bread board its no issue.

This would break compatibility with current shields...

If its placed in such a way that the existing pins are as its is will it break compatibility ?

 

Now that I'm with RTC's another idea is to have diode and jumper for powering the PIC through a diode with a battery. Timer1 oscillator pins are readily available for connecting a 32khz crystal and replacing the fuse with a diode would provide power mains power to the PIC.

Maybe you can use Serial connector for this and power the board with it ? Put jumper JP3 accordingly.

Yes, good idea.
 

Sunish

[AGSCalabrese]

Once a Jaluino board design was complete, they and their supporting
parts can be sold through Sparkfun.com or a similar venue.

Gus

[Sunish Issac]

Of course, anybody can sell, but for widespread adoption the price should be kept at the minimum.

Sunish

[Sebastien Lelong]

2010/7/20 Sunish Issac <sunish.net@gmail.com>

Hello Seb,

Just another afterthought, why not add more power pins ? may be near each 8 pin connector ?
That would aid in powering any peripheral boards. Of course with a bread board its no issue.

This would break compatibility with current shields...

If its placed in such a way that the existing pins are as its is will it break compatibility ?

OK, I see, that would mean add some more pin to current headers, but maybe existing shield wouldn't fit as easily (mistakes ahead ?). But in the end, I don't fully understand: if there's no issue with a breadboard, there's also no issue when designing a shield ? Or do you using it without any shield ?

Cheers,

Seb

[Sunish Issac]

I use it without any shield connected directly to the jaluino board. In fact I used some male connectors instead of female as I only had them at the time of soldering. My shields generally ahppen to be other circuit boards, that I made over time.

Sunish

[Sebastien Lelong]

Hi Sunish,

2010/7/17 Sunish Issac <sunish.net@gmail.com> 

Also I feel, the issue with the software part of jaluino, is that inspite of editra being available for so many platforms, its not usable to the extend that it can be installed in just one step. This is very important for a newbies and those without much OS/software background.

This is indeed a problem, there are sometimes tricky situations with python version incompatibility vs .Editra versions. A Windows installer (for Linux, current installation instructions shouldn't be a problem) may be the solution. It would need to also embed a specific Editra version, a python interpreter, and JaluinoIDE of course.

I know a little NSIS (http://nsis.sourceforge.net/Main_Page), free. Maybe it can be done with it. Which packager are you using for Jaledit ?

Cheers

Seb

[Sunish Issac]

I'm using innosetup. Pretty happy with it.I've heard NSIS is good too.

If you are using an installer, yes you can do all the needed stuff in it making it easier for the user. If you need help with innosetup I can help.


Sunish