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Kinord  
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 More options Jul 16 2003, 2:09 pm
Newsgroups: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
From: Kinord <n...@no.no>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 18:07:36 GMT
Local: Wed, Jul 16 2003 2:07 pm
Subject: Whom o Who?
In quali casi è preferibile l'uso di Whom piuttosto che di Who (il
quale)? Semplicemente si equivalgono?

Grazie!


 
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Adam Atkinson  
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 More options Jul 16 2003, 2:16 pm
Newsgroups: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
From: "Adam Atkinson" <gh...@mistral.co.uk>
Date: 16 Jul 2003 19:15:10 +0100
Local: Wed, Jul 16 2003 2:15 pm
Subject: Re: Whom o Who?
On 16-Jul-03 19:07:36, Kinord said:

>In quali casi è preferibile l'uso di Whom piuttosto che di Who (il
>quale)? Semplicemente si equivalgono?

Who e' un soggetto, whom e' un oggetto.

Who is that?

Who ate the last piece of pie?

To whom are you speaking?

Whom did you kill?

Pero', "whom" non e' usatissimo.. un po' come
whence/thence/hence/whither/hither/thither e il congiuntivo, e' in via
d'estinzione.

--
Adam Atkinson (gh...@mistral.co.uk)
alt.folklore.computers FAQ: http://www.best.com/~wilson/faq/


 
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FB  
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 More options Jul 16 2003, 3:42 pm
Newsgroups: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
From: "FB" <fam.balducciNOS...@tin.it>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 19:42:53 GMT
Local: Wed, Jul 16 2003 3:42 pm
Subject: Re: Whom o Who?

"Adam Atkinson" <gh...@mistral.co.uk> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:557.327T503T11552716ghira@mistral.co.uk...

> Pero', "whom" non e' usatissimo.. un po' come
> whence/thence/hence/whither/hither/thither e il congiuntivo, e' in via
> d'estinzione.

Forse è più usato di "thence" eccetera. Nello scritto si trova.

Ciao, FB


 
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Alan Lothian  
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 More options Jul 16 2003, 5:09 pm
Newsgroups: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
From: Alan Lothian <alanloth...@mac.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 22:09:44 +0100
Local: Wed, Jul 16 2003 5:09 pm
Subject: Re: Whom o Who?
In article <1VhRa.77210$qa5.1574...@news2.tin.it>, FB

<fam.balducciNOS...@tin.it> wrote:
> "Adam Atkinson" <gh...@mistral.co.uk> ha scritto nel messaggio
> news:557.327T503T11552716ghira@mistral.co.uk...

> > Pero', "whom" non e' usatissimo.. un po' come
> > whence/thence/hence/whither/hither/thither e il congiuntivo, e' in via
> > d'estinzione.

> Forse è più usato di "thence" eccetera. Nello scritto si trova.

Giusto. Io mi faccio in quattro di usarlo il piu' spesso possibile.
(Noi della resistenza... :) )

Ma nella forma di
"To whom it may concern" == "A che compete" durera' ancora qualche anno.

--
"The past resembles the future as water resembles water"  Ibn Khaldun

My .mac.com address is a spam sink.
If you wish to email me, try alan dot lothian at blueyonder dot co dot uk


 
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Discussion subject changed to ""To" nelle domande (Re: Whom o Who?)" by FB
FB  
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 More options Jul 16 2003, 5:28 pm
Newsgroups: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
From: "FB" <fam.balducciNOS...@tin.it>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 21:28:42 GMT
Local: Wed, Jul 16 2003 5:28 pm
Subject: "To" nelle domande (Re: Whom o Who?)

"Adam Atkinson" <gh...@mistral.co.uk> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:557.327T503T11552716ghira@mistral.co.uk...

> To whom are you speaking?

E' corretta anche:"Whom are you speaking to?"

Ciao, FB


 
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Discussion subject changed to "Whom o Who?" by Enrico C
Enrico C  
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 More options Jul 16 2003, 5:44 pm
Newsgroups: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
From: Enrico C <enric...@spamcop.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 23:44:00 +0200
Subject: Re: Whom o Who?
A certain FB, of it.cultura.linguistica.inglese, writes:

> "Adam Atkinson" <gh...@mistral.co.uk> ha scritto nel messaggio
> news:557.327T503T11552716ghira@mistral.co.uk...

>> Pero', "whom" non e' usatissimo.. un po' come
>> whence/thence/hence/whither/hither/thither e il congiuntivo, e' in via
>> d'estinzione.

> Forse è più usato di "thence" eccetera. Nello scritto si trova.

Per "whence" "thence" e "thither" lo Zanichelli avverte "antiq.",
mentre per "whom" non c'è alcun avvertimento.
"Hence" viene definito "form." e "lett.", a seconda del significato
"Hither" è "lett."
"Whither" non compare per nulla :(
Eccolo sul Picchi

WHITHER
av (obsol o retor) dove, verso quale luogo
• whither are you going? dove vai?

Il Picchi definisce "whom" "form."

La tentazione di procurarmi il Picchi CD aumenta ogni giorno!

--
Enrico C

Do Something Amazing Today
Save a Life, Give Blood


 
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Enrico C  
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 More options Jul 16 2003, 5:51 pm
Newsgroups: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
From: Enrico C <enric...@spamcop.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 23:47:04 +0200
Local: Wed, Jul 16 2003 5:47 pm
Subject: Re: Whom o Who?
A certain Alan Lothian, of it.cultura.linguistica.inglese, writes:

> "To whom it may concern" == "A che compete"

Direi "A tutti gli interessati"

--
Enrico C

Do Something Amazing Today
Save a Life, Give Blood


 
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Mary Cassidy  
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 More options Jul 16 2003, 5:57 pm
Newsgroups: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
From: Mary Cassidy <m...@privacy.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 23:57:14 +0200
Local: Wed, Jul 16 2003 5:57 pm
Subject: Re: Whom o Who?

Enrico C wrote:

> > Forse è più usato di "thence" eccetera. Nello scritto si trova.

> Per "whence" "thence" e "thither" lo Zanichelli avverte "antiq.",
> mentre per "whom" non c'è alcun avvertimento.
> "Hence" viene definito "form." e "lett.", a seconda del significato
> "Hither" è "lett."

Potresti usare ISO-8859-1 invece di UTF-8?

Tutti i caratteri accentati nei tuoi ultimi messaggi vengono male.

--
Mary


 
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Discussion subject changed to ""To" nelle domande (Re: Whom o Who?)" by Tony the ice man
Tony the ice man  
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 More options Jul 16 2003, 6:23 pm
Newsgroups: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
From: "Tony the ice man" <CANCELLAREantonio_foNOS...@yahoo.it>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 15:25:33 -0700
Local: Wed, Jul 16 2003 6:25 pm
Subject: Re: "To" nelle domande (Re: Whom o Who?)

> > To whom are you speaking?
> E' corretta anche:"Whom are you speaking to?"

In questi giorni è più e più usata. Il parere di corretta o non, lo si lascia
alla gente la più dogmatica.

 
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Discussion subject changed to "Whom o Who?" by Enrico C
Enrico C  
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 More options Jul 16 2003, 6:34 pm
Newsgroups: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Followup-To: poster
From: Enrico C <enric...@spamcop.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 00:33:12 +0200
Local: Wed, Jul 16 2003 6:33 pm
Subject: Re: Whom o Who?
A certain Mary Cassidy, of it.cultura.linguistica.inglese, writes:

> Tutti i caratteri accentati nei tuoi ultimi messaggi vengono male.

Sorry! Non so di preciso cosa sia successo per quel messaggio.
In genere evito del tutto di usare le accentate, sostituendole con uno
script prima dell'invio, ma qualcosa deve essere andato storto.
Dici anche altri messaggi? Potresti eventualmente indicarmi quali,
magari in privato?
Leggi le news con Mozilla, vero? Te lo chiedo per poter fare una
prova, perché con OE e Dialog non sono riuscito a riprodurre il
problema.

Anche  altri visualizzano male i miei messaggi?

Follow-up to poster

--
Enrico C

Do Something Amazing Today
Save a Life, Give Blood


 
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FB  
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 More options Jul 16 2003, 7:09 pm
Newsgroups: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
From: "FB" <fam.balducciNOS...@tin.it>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 23:09:22 GMT
Local: Wed, Jul 16 2003 7:09 pm
Subject: Re: Whom o Who?

"Enrico C" <enric...@spamcop.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:1nrb6jkbajlof.dlg@news.lillathedog.net...

> Per "whence" "thence" e "thither" lo Zanichelli avverte "antiq.",
> mentre per "whom" non c'è alcun avvertimento.
> "Hither" è "lett."

Mi risulta un "hither and thither", "qua e là"; magari si usa, quantomeno se
uno "se la canta e se la sona".

Ciao, FB


 
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Discussion subject changed to ""To" nelle domande (Re: Whom o Who?)" by FB
FB  
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 More options Jul 16 2003, 7:11 pm
Newsgroups: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
From: "FB" <fam.balducciNOS...@tin.it>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 23:11:36 GMT
Local: Wed, Jul 16 2003 7:11 pm
Subject: Re: "To" nelle domande (Re: Whom o Who?)

"Tony the ice man" <CANCELLAREantonio_foNOS...@yahoo.it> ha scritto nel
messaggio news:bf4j9q$b8ovu$1@ID-55125.news.uni-berlin.de...

> In questi giorni è più e più usata. Il parere di corretta o non, lo si
lascia
> alla gente la più dogmatica.

Se cominci una frase con "in questi giorni", qualcuno penserà che stai
facendo una pubblicità degli assorbenti.
Suppongo volessi dire "alla gente più dogmatica", a meno che volessi
intendere "alla gente in assoluto più dogmatica" usando una raffinata
struttura simil-francese. Nel dubbio, sostieni la seconda ipotesi...

Ciao, FB


 
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Tony the ice man  
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 More options Jul 16 2003, 7:41 pm
Newsgroups: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
From: "Tony the ice man" <CANCELLAREantonio_foNOS...@yahoo.it>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 16:42:59 -0700
Local: Wed, Jul 16 2003 7:42 pm
Subject: Re: "To" nelle domande (Re: Whom o Who?)

> > In questi giorni è più e più usata. Il parere di corretta o non, lo si
> lascia alla gente la più dogmatica.

> Se cominci una frase con "in questi giorni", qualcuno penserà che stai
> facendo una pubblicità degli assorbenti.
> Suppongo volessi dire "alla gente più dogmatica", a meno che volessi
> intendere "alla gente in assoluto più dogmatica" usando una raffinata
> struttura simil-francese. Nel dubbio, sostieni la seconda ipotesi...

Allora, in questo periodo... (uso troppo quest'espressione) e
alla più dogmatica gente?

 
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FB  
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 More options Jul 16 2003, 7:46 pm
Newsgroups: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
From: "FB" <fam.balducciNOS...@tin.it>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 23:46:05 GMT
Local: Wed, Jul 16 2003 7:46 pm
Subject: Re: "To" nelle domande (Re: Whom o Who?)

"Tony the ice man" <CANCELLAREantonio_foNOS...@yahoo.it> ha scritto nel
messaggio news:bf4nra$b1f4c$1@ID-55125.news.uni-berlin.de...

> Allora, in questo periodo... (uso troppo quest'espressione) e
> alla più dogmatica gente?

"In questo periodo", "di questi tempi", "attualmente" ecc., alla gente più
dogmatica.

Ciao, FB


 
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Adam Atkinson  
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 More options Jul 16 2003, 8:28 pm
Newsgroups: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
From: "Adam Atkinson" <gh...@mistral.co.uk>
Date: 17 Jul 2003 1:19:42 +0100
Local: Wed, Jul 16 2003 8:19 pm
Subject: Re: "To" nelle domande (Re: Whom o Who?)
On 17-Jul-03 00:11:36, FB said:

>Se cominci una frase con "in questi giorni", qualcuno penserà che stai
>facendo una pubblicità degli assorbenti.

"In quei giorni", no?

--
Adam Atkinson (gh...@mistral.co.uk)
This .sig intentionally left blank.


 
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Discussion subject changed to "Whom o Who?" by Adam Atkinson
Adam Atkinson  
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 More options Jul 17 2003, 4:22 am
Newsgroups: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
From: "Adam Atkinson" <gh...@mistral.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 08:13:43 +0000 (UTC)
Local: Thurs, Jul 17 2003 4:13 am
Subject: Re: Whom o Who?
"Xakero" <xxak...@thai.com> wrote in message

news:bf5lj6$25v$1@rex.ip-plus.net

> > Pero', "whom" non e' usatissimo.. un po' come
> > whence/thence/hence/whither/hither/thither e il congiuntivo, e' in via
> > d'estinzione.

> I wish you hadn't said that.

I didn't _want_ to say it.

> "Whom", where grammatically required, is correct and "who" is wrong and, to
> the best of my knowledge, "whom" is used correctly by educated people, which
> I would assume to be 99.9% of the British population and a similar
> percentage of the North American population.

I would like to think I use "whom" correctly, but I'm sure
I say "who" at least some of the time.

> Or is it only the foreigners who use "whom" correctly nowadays?

Most likely.

--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG


 
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Discussion subject changed to ""To" nelle domande (Re: Whom o Who?)" by Enrico C
Enrico C  
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 More options Jul 17 2003, 4:36 am
Newsgroups: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
From: Enrico C <enric...@spamcop.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 10:35:05 +0200
Local: Thurs, Jul 17 2003 4:35 am
Subject: Re: "To" nelle domande (Re: Whom o Who?)
A certain Adam Atkinson, of it.cultura.linguistica.inglese, writes:

> On 17-Jul-03 00:11:36, FB said:

>>Se cominci una frase con "in questi giorni", qualcuno pensera` che stai
>>facendo una pubblicita` degli assorbenti.

> "In quei giorni", no?

Si`, dovrebbe essere in "In quei giorni".

--
Enrico C

Do Something Amazing Today
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Roscio  
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 More options Jul 17 2003, 5:46 am
Newsgroups: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
From: "Roscio" <serg...@libero.it>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:46:47 GMT
Local: Thurs, Jul 17 2003 5:46 am
Subject: Re: "To" nelle domande (Re: Whom o Who?)
"FB" <fam.balducciNOS...@tin.it> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:IYkRa.80514$qa5.1612684@news2.tin.it...

> > In questi giorni è più e più usata. Il parere di corretta o non, lo si
> > lascia alla gente la più dogmatica.

> Se cominci una frase con "in questi giorni", qualcuno penserà che stai
> facendo una pubblicità degli assorbenti.

No. Gli assorbenti si usano "in QUEI giorni", non in "questi". :-)))

In "questi giorni", tutt'al più, si usano i "proteggi-slip".

(ci ho una cultura - sull'argomento - da far paura...
non per niente mi chiamo "Roscio" - come il "palloncino" !!!... :-)))

--
Er Roscio.


 
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Discussion subject changed to "This / That (was: "To" nelle domande (Re: Whom o Who?))" by Enrico C
Enrico C  
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 More options Jul 17 2003, 7:57 am
Newsgroups: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
From: Enrico C <enric...@spamcop.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 13:56:19 +0200
Local: Thurs, Jul 17 2003 7:56 am
Subject: This / That (was: "To" nelle domande (Re: Whom o Who?))
A certain Roscio, of it.cultura.linguistica.inglese, writes:

> "FB" <fam.balducciNOS...@tin.it> ha scritto nel messaggio
> news:IYkRa.80514$qa5.1612684@news2.tin.it...

>>> In questi giorni e` piu` e piu` usata. Il parere di corretta o non, lo si
>>> lascia alla gente la piu` dogmatica.

>> Se cominci una frase con "in questi giorni", qualcuno pensera` che stai
>> facendo una pubblicita` degli assorbenti.

> No. Gli assorbenti si usano "in QUEI giorni", non in "questi". :-)))

Saltando di "pole" in "leafy branch" ;) , i.e. jumping from one
subject to another,  ho notato che l'inglese usa di preferenza "that"
in alcune situazioni in cui l'italiano userebbe, invece, "questo".

Per esempio:
"Se tu dici questo, ci credo." = "If you say that, I believe it to be
so."
(credo!)

--
Enrico C

Do Something Amazing Today
Save a Life, Give Blood


 
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Sebapop  
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 More options Jul 17 2003, 8:17 am
Newsgroups: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
From: Sebapop <sebapopNOS...@libero.it>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 14:18:45 +0200
Local: Thurs, Jul 17 2003 8:18 am
Subject: Re: This / That (was: "To" nelle domande (Re: Whom o Who?))

On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 13:56:19 +0200, Enrico C wrote:
>Per esempio:
>"Se tu dici questo, ci credo." = "If you say that, I believe it to be
>so."
>(credo!)

Perché non semplicemente "if you say that, I believe it". E sì, è con
"that" e non con "this".

Sebastiano

--
Start spreading the news, I'm leaving today
I want to be a part of it - New York, New York
These vagabond shoes, are longing to stray
Right through the very heart of it - New York, New York


 
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Discussion subject changed to ""To" nelle domande (Re: Whom o Who?)" by FB
FB  
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 More options Jul 17 2003, 9:04 am
Newsgroups: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
From: "FB" <fam.balducciNOS...@tin.it>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 13:04:47 GMT
Local: Thurs, Jul 17 2003 9:04 am
Subject: Re: "To" nelle domande (Re: Whom o Who?)

"Adam Atkinson" <gh...@mistral.co.uk> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:293.328T2101T794282ghira@mistral.co.uk...

> >Se cominci una frase con "in questi giorni", qualcuno penserà che stai
> >facendo una pubblicità degli assorbenti.

> "In quei giorni", no?

E' vero, mi dimenticavo che te ne intendi... (faccina sorridente)
Comunque "in questi giorni" significa "in questi ultimi giorni/nei prossimi
giorni".

Ciao, FB


 
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Discussion subject changed to "This / That (was: "To" nelle domande (Re: Whom o Who?))" by Adam Atkinson
Adam Atkinson  
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 More options Jul 17 2003, 9:06 am
Newsgroups: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
From: "Adam Atkinson" <gh...@mistral.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 13:06:28 +0000 (UTC)
Local: Thurs, Jul 17 2003 9:06 am
Subject: Re: This / That (was: "To" nelle domande (Re: Whom o Who?))
"Enrico C" <enric...@spamcop.net> wrote in message

news:1cmal72d5bg70.dlg@news.lillathedog.net

> Saltando di "pole" in "leafy branch" ;) , i.e. jumping from one
> subject to another,  ho notato che l'inglese usa di preferenza "that"
> in alcune situazioni in cui l'italiano userebbe, invece, "questo".

Per esempio:

What's that noise?

To be, or not to be, that is the question.

--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG


 
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FB  
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 More options Jul 17 2003, 9:07 am
Newsgroups: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
From: "FB" <fam.balducciNOS...@tin.it>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 13:07:54 GMT
Local: Thurs, Jul 17 2003 9:07 am
Subject: Re: This / That (was: "To" nelle domande (Re: Whom o Who?))

"Enrico C" <enric...@spamcop.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:1cmal72d5bg70.dlg@news.lillathedog.net...

> Per esempio:
> "Se tu dici questo, ci credo." = "If you say that, I believe it to be
> so."
> (credo!)

Beh, in italiano sarebbe più probabile:"Se lo dici tu, ci credo". Leggi cosa
dice lo Swan: non c'entra molto ma spiega quando usare "it" e quando "this"
(o "that", per gli Americani), è molto importante. Ma non in questo caso,
dove "this" lo vedrei malino.

Ciao, FB


 
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Discussion subject changed to "Whom o Who?" by Mary Cassidy
Mary Cassidy  
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 More options Jul 17 2003, 9:15 am
Newsgroups: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
From: Mary Cassidy <m...@privacy.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 15:15:37 +0200
Local: Thurs, Jul 17 2003 9:15 am
Subject: Re: Whom o Who?

Xakero wrote:
> "Whom", where grammatically required, is correct and "who" is wrong and, to
> the best of my knowledge, "whom" is used correctly by educated people, which
> I would assume to be 99.9% of the British population and a similar
> percentage of the North American population.

> Or is it only the foreigners who use "whom" correctly nowadays?

I'm afraid it is.

Whom is really dying out in GB.

It is still sometimes used as an indirect object ("to whom"), but hardly
ever as a direct object in spoken English, except in very formal written
English.

It would be colloquial to say "who are you talking to?", for example,
not "to whom are you talking?" or even worse, "whom are you talking
to?".

You'll never hear anyone say "whom did you see yesterday?"; it's always
"who did you see yesterday?"

> to the best of my knowledge, "whom" is used correctly by educated
> people, which I would assume to be 99.9% of the British population

99.9% of the population have been to school, but those who use perfect
grammar are perhaps 10-15% at a rough guess, and those who use "whom"
are even fewer.

--
Mary

--
Mary


 
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Discussion subject changed to "tampax (was: "To" nelle domande (Re: Whom o Who?))" by Enrico C
Enrico C  
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 More options Jul 17 2003, 9:17 am
Newsgroups: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
From: Enrico C <enric...@spamcop.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 15:12:10 +0200
Local: Thurs, Jul 17 2003 9:12 am
Subject: tampax (was: "To" nelle domande (Re: Whom o Who?))

>>>Se cominci una frase con "in questi giorni", qualcuno pensera` che stai
>>>facendo una pubblicita` degli assorbenti.

>> "In quei giorni", no?

And what words do tampax English spots start with?

--
Enrico C

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