Proof That They Went to the Moon

[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at 2:47 AM
Subject: Proof That They Went to the Moon
To: "S...@harekrsna.com" <s...@harekrsna.com>

OK to publish.

Dear Prabhus, Hare Krishna! Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

Just because some of the Apollo lunar mission photos/videos were faked/staged doesn't prove anything. The cold war was going on. Lying and/or exaggerating the truth was par for the course, for propaganda reasons. It was going on on both sides of the Iron Curtain all of the time!

A lunar trajectory is impossible to fake. Using a giant radio telescope located in Australia with an all Australian staff, they tracked all of the Apollo missions to and from the Moon. These were all top-notch scientists. No one could have fooled them even for a second. They were very independent minded and didn't like anyone, including NASA, telling them how to do their jobs. They knew where the Apollo spacecraft were within a tiny fraction of a degree at all times. They knew how to calculate the lunar trajectories based upon the laws of physics, more specifically, the laws of celestial mechanics.

When the moon was on their side of the planet, they relayed all of the voice, data, and video transmissions to and from the Apollo spacecraft, including a live conversation with the President of the United States. They also relayed the actual live two-way conversation of Neil Armstrong's first steps on the moon, including relaying the faint signals of the live video. This huge radio telescope just happened to be pointing directly at the moon at the time! If it were pointed even a tiny fraction of a degree off, they would not have been able to receive the extremely faint signals!

Also, no Russian space scientist has ever claimed that the moon landings by the US astronauts were a hoax.

Here, at last. is the photographic proof that the landings actually did occur:

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/LRO/multimedia/lroimages/apollosites.html (LRO Sees Apollo Landing Sites)

Does this mean that there was no hoax! No! The hoax was that the astronauts were made to feel very unwelcome on the moon because they were being watched by huge, intimidating alien spacecraft, and NASA covered it up! This may be one reason why some of the photos/videos were doctored/faked/staged. They had to remove the images of the UFOs and the astronauts reaction to them!

The above scenario is also what Sadaputa Prabhu told me that he suspected, when I talked with him about the Apollo flights several years ago.

So, Srila Prabhupada was right, "If they didn't encounter the highly advanced living entities who reside there, then they must not have gone!" (paraphrased). But they did go, and they did encounter the advanced living entities that Srila Prabhupada spoke about!

Let's all stop making fools of ourselves and therefore embarrassing Srila Prabhupada by claiming that the moon landings were a hoax!

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP, BS, Applied Physics, Michigan Technological University

[Mahesh Raja]

FAITH in our BONAFIDE  Guru Srila Prabhupada -  Prabhu. It requires FAITH. THAT personality who has SEEN Krsna FACE TO FACE - AND - COMES FROM GOLOKA - HIS WORDS ARE TO BE TRUSTED NOT SOME RACAL WHO IS DETERMINED TO HEAR ABOUT movie made in ARIZONA DESERT  "moon landing"   740318mw.vrn              Conversations Guru dasa: Why does the moon reflect? They say the moon is sandy, but this sand here is not reflecting. Prabhupada: That... They are not going to the moon planet. They are going to some other planet, Rahu planet. Guru dasa: Rahu? Prabhupada: Yes. There are many planets invisible. So there is a Rahu planet which comes in front of the moon planet, and that is called eclipse. So there is a planet rotating. I think they are going to that Rahu planet, not to the moon planet. 750301mw.atl              Conversations Balavanta: In the Srimad-Bhagavatam you say that the Rahu planet is visible on the full moon night? The Rahu planet? Prabhupada: No, when there is eclipse. Balavanta: Oh, eclipse. Prabhupada: Eclipse means Rahu planet comes in front. SB 4.29.69 P Talks Between Narada and King Pracinabarhi    In this connection, the darkness occurring before the full moon, the lunar eclipse, can be explained as being another planet, known as Rahu. According to Vedic astronomy, the Rahu planet, which is not visible, is accepted. Sometimes the Rahu planet is visible in the presence of full moonlight. It then appears that this Rahu planet exists somewhere near the orbit of the moon. The failure of modern moon excursionists may be due to the Rahu planet. In other words, those who are supposed to be going to the moon may actually be going to this invisible planet Rahu. Actually, they are not going to the moon but to the planet Rahu, and after reaching this planet, they come back. Apart from this discussion, the point is that a living entity has immense and unlimited desires for material enjoyment, and he has to transmigrate from one gross body to another until these desires are exhausted.   760706r2.wdc              Conversations Prabhupada: Why do they speak about seeing? What is the value of your seeing? I have seen the Atlantic Ocean, that means I have seen everything? This is ludicrous. Rupanuga: They may simply speculate from a distance, that "Here is the surface," like here... Prabhupada: That's all. Real business is speculation. Rupanuga: Here it says, here, this is some great, here... Prabhupada: Oh, that is "I am not stealing." Rupanuga: Twelve hundred miles above the surface. Now they want to speculate what is there. Prabhupada: Who asked him that who is stealing? But he said "I am not stealing." Rupanuga: That is perfect, Srila Prabhupada. Prabhupada: Why he brings Arizona? Who asked him? That means that their business in Arizona. Rupanuga: They have exposed themselves. Prabhupada: Rascals, how they are cheating people. Rupanuga: Such a big hoax. They have spent billions of dollars for such a hoax. Prabhupada: Now you consider whether I am right or wrong. The moon planet is also Arizona. (laughs) All their business asset is there. Rupanuga: So one of the things we want to do is expose this cheating. Should we expose this kind of thing directly like this, or should we indirectly deal with it? Prabhupada: No, you do scientifically. I give you the hint. (laughter) Svarupa Damodara: If we say that, they will be mad at the... Prabhupada: Give psychology. Say "Who asked him about Arizona? Why he is speaking Arizona?" That means they are in Arizona.

[Mahesh Raja]

COMMON SENSE Sattava Guna  means he can go higher planets. Meat-eaters, drunkards HOW they can go moon?   740620BG.GER                 Lectures Prabhupada: Yes. (translator reads German translation) So our natural tendency is to go to other, better planets. Therefore people are trying to go to the moon planet. Similarly, you can go to the sun planet, heavenly planet. There are so many. But the information is, even though you reach the topmost planet of this universe, still, there the four principles of material life, namely, birth, death, old age and disease, are there. So we can go to the topmost planet. There is process how to go.                   urdhvam gacchanti sattva-stha                      madhye tisthanti rajasah                      jaghanya-guna-vrtti-stha                       adho gacchanti tamasah If you keep yourself in sattva-guna, or in the modes of goodness, you are promoted to the higher planetary system. Even to the topmost planetary system. That is called urdhvam gacchanti sattva-sthah. And if you keep yourself in the modes of passion, you shall remain within the middle planetary system. This is middle planetary system. This earthly planet, it is called Bhurloka. Then, above this, there is Bhuvarloka. Then, above that, Svargaloka. That is heavenly planets. The heavenly planets begins from the moon planet. Jaghanya-guna-vrtti-stha adho gacchanti tamasah. And those who are in the modes of darkness, they go down, down, down. The animal life is also amongst the down, I mean to say, modes of life. So this human form of life is a chance to make our choice where we shall go next, in the higher or in the lower, or we shall remain here. So how to go to the higher planetary system, that is also mentioned. Yanti deva-vrata devan. Read this. Satsvarupa:                       yanti deva-vrata devan                      pitrn yanti pitr-vratah                       bhutani yanti bhutejya                      yanti mad-yajino 'pi mam  (German translator reads translation) Prabhupada: So, if we like, we can go to the higher planetary system, heavenly planetary system. Just like we are trying to go to the moon planet, but we have not been successful. In this way we cannot go there. Each planet, each and every planet, has got different atmosphere. So unless your body is completely competent to live in such planet, you cannot go there. Just like the scientists say that in the moon planet the temperature is two hundred degrees below zero. Similarly, in the sun planet the temperature is very, very high, hundred and thousand times degrees above the normal. So in this way, every planet has got different atmosphere, different temperature, different standard of life, different duration of life. So one has to become competent to transfer himself in a particular type of planet. So we, as spirit soul, dehi, the possessor of this body... Dehi means one who possesses this body, or the occupier of the body, the spirit soul. That is eternal. Changing body only, but eternal. Therefore we should not be interested to these different types of temporary body. That is not very good intelligence. So we have to prepare ourself. If we want... There is a full description of each and every planet. And we can prepare ourself according to our desire, which planet we wish to go. But Krsna says, mad-yajino 'pi yanti mam. "Persons who are engaged in My occupational duties, they will come to Me."   751128SB.DEL                 Lectures                       yanti deva-vrata devan                      pitrn yanti pitr-vratah                       bhutejya yanti bhutani                      mad-yajino 'pi yanti mam You can utilize this body properly for higher standard of life. You can go to the higher planetary system. The higher planetary system begins from the sun. That is another subject matter. But so far we get information from Srimad-Bhagavatam, there sun, then moon, according to Bhagavatam. And I think... We were talking about these things, that whether the moon is the first planet or the sun is the first planet. So far we understand from Vedic literature, the moon is the second planet. The sun is the first planet. If we consider like that, then moon is beyond the sun planet. The estimation is there in the Srimad-Bhag avatam: 1,600,000 miles above the sun the moon is situated. Now, if we take consideration of the sun planet situated 93,000,000 miles from earth, then add 1,600,000 miles again, it comes to 15,000,000..., 95,000,000's miles away from the earthly planet. And how you can reach there in four days, 95,000,000 miles away? If we apply our common sense, then it appears they have never gone to the moon planet. It is all bogus propaganda. It is not possible.   SB 8.18.5 P   Lord Vamanadeva, the Dwarf Incarnation    Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura, an expert astrologer, explains the word naksatra-taradyah. The word naksatra means "the stars," the word tara in this context refers to the planets, and adyah means "the first one specifically mentioned." Among the planets, the first is Surya, the sun, not the moon. Therefore, according to the Vedic version, the modern astronomer's proposition that the moon is nearest to the earth should not be accepted. The chronological order in which people all over the world refer to the days of the week--Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday and Saturday--corresponds to the Vedic order of the planets and thus circumstantiates the Vedic version. Apart from this, when the Lord appeared the planets and stars became situated very auspiciously, according to astrological calculations, to celebrate the birth of the Lord.   --- On Mon, 27/7/09, Mahesh Raja <mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

Dear Mahesh Prabhu, welcome back from the dead! Good to see that our super duper quote finder is back!

Here’s even more proof:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSNlxnGrXzw (25 second video)

Your servant, Pratyatoṣa Dāsa

[Bhaktatraveler]

Hare Krsna Mahesh d   Long time no hear from you prabhu! Nice to see you do your thing, good quotes. Are there not other places that Srila Prabhupada admits they could have possibly gone to the moon but to no avail?   Hare Krsna   RCBhakti

--- On Mon, 7/27/09, Mahesh Raja <mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

From: Mahesh Raja <mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk> Subject: Re: Proof That They Went to the Moon

[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

Prabhu, Mahesh Prabhu will not get your email, because he is not a member of the forum. You have to click “Reply to all.”

Your servant, Pratyatoṣa Dāsa, Moderator

[Bhaktatraveler]

How did I screw that up?   RCB

--- On Mon, 7/27/09, Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Proof That They Went to the Moon

[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

On Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at 3:09 PM, Bhaktatraveler <bhaktat...@yahoo.com> wrote:

How did I screw that up?   RCB

His email was to a long list of receivers. You have to reply to all of them by clicking, “Reply to all” instead of “Reply.”

[Urdh...@aol.com]

There is a book by one of the astronauts called "We Never Went To The Moon". Do you know this book?

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praty...@gmail.com:

Thema: Re: Proof That They Went to the Moon
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Internet-eMail:

Dear Mahesh Prabhu, welcome back from the dead! Good to see that our super duper quote finder is back!

Here’s even more proof:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSNlxnGrXzw (25 second video)

Your servant, Pratyato?a Dasa

On Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at 1:39 PM, Mahesh Raja <mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

[Alexandre Jablonski]

"A lunar trajectory is impossible to fake. Using a giant radio telescope located in Australia with an all Australian staff, they tracked all of the Apollo missions to and from the Moon. These were all top-notch scientists. No one could have fooled them even for a second. They were very independent minded and didn't like anyone, including NASA, telling them how to do their jobs. They knew where the Apollo spacecraft were within a tiny fraction of a degree at all times. They knew how to calculate the lunar trajectories based upon the laws of physics, more specifically, the laws of celestial mechanics."

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Below is a link to a roughly 10-minute video that I found interesting. The relevant section of the video, which offers a different perspective on the Australian dishes, starts at about the 7:35 mark: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCD4lY13D1E Discussions related to those dishes then continue at the following link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KasdJeTpmRQ

"Also, no Russian space scientist has ever claimed that the moon landings by the US astronauts were a hoax."

Below is a link to another video, also roughly 10-minutes long, on the topic of Russian space scientists: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkmNxCgPRtk I remember hearing, some years ago, that one of Srila Prabhupada's objections to the idea of people having gone to the moon was that the moon is described in Vedic literature as being a heavenly planet, with rivers and plants, and that if they didn't see that, then they didn't go there. I did some searches today to see if I could find more information. Below are some quotes: "It is understood from this verse that the predominating deity of the moon is the maintainer of all the trees and plants throughout the universe. It is due to the moonshine that trees and plants grow very luxuriantly. Therefore how can we accept the so-called scientists whose moon expeditions have informed us that there are no trees or vegetation on the moon? Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura says, somo vrksadhisthata sa eva vrksanam raja: Soma, the predominating deity of the moon, is the king of all vegetation. How can we believe that the maintainer of vegetation has no vegetation on his own planet?" (SB 6.4.6, purport) "If we hear from those who are actually self realized, then the nectarean rivers, like those which are flowing on the moon planet, will flow into our ears." (Nectar of Devotion, Chapter 10) "So moon is not desert. These are simply rascals. They do not know anything, and rascals believe that the moon is desert, and the sun is desert. Only this planet is full of variety and beauty. No. We have to take lessons from the sastras." (Garden Conversation, October 9th, 1976, Aligarh) Srila Prabhupada: ...the moon planet, there is no rainfall? Karandhara: No, according to scientists there is no (indistinct) of rainfall on the moon. Srila Prabhupada: Huh? Bhagavan: It's very hot and very cold. Yogesvara: Have they made another mistake? Srila Prabhupada: And there is no water also. Karandhara: No. Bhagavan: No, water. Yogesvara: They say that the moon is covered by a very thick layer of dust. Srila Prabhupada: But according to our sastra, moon is one of the heavenly planets. [break] ...is moon in any way? Because there is no water? (...) Srila Prabhupada: So how you can say there is no water in the moon planet? Karandhara: Well, they can take samples in the desert and find out if there is certain degree of moisture in the soil. They have taken the same samples on the moon and say that there is no moisture. Srila Prabhupada: So why the moon planet is bereft of? Material, anything material, it is combination of earth, water, fire, air, ether. Anything material. It is a combination. Karandhara: Well, there are probably very minute quantities of moisture on the moon. But they say nothing significant, nothing suitable for agriculture. Yogesvara: There are no plants growing on the moon. In the desert we find some plants, but they have not found any vegetation on the moon. Srila Prabhupada: That means they have not gone thoroughly. One portion of it. Karandhara: Well, they have scanners on these satellites which pick up vegetation or life. From hundreds miles away, it will show up on a screen. And they sent it all around the moon, and it hasn't shown any indication of any organic matter or life. They can send this satellite up around the earth planet and they can locate fields of corn, fields of wheat, from hundreds of miles away, just by the way it shows up on these different electronic devices. [break] (Morning Walk, June 3rd, 1974, Geneva) Thanks, Alex

---

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[Urdh...@aol.com]

Did NASA fake the moon landing? A program aired on British television explored the possibility

This subject matter is naturally interesting to many devotees because Srila Prabhupada himself was doubtful about the moon landing. A section of the program was dedicated to analyzing NASA photographs, which curiously depict shadows that are inconsistent with the direction of the sunlight. The program clearly proved that shadows in the photographs fall at different angles and at different lengths in the same pictures, as though illuminated by more than one light source close to the scene. Had they actually been on the moon, of course, this would have been impossible as there was no other light source other than the sun. Some photographs taken of the astronauts facing in the shadows are illuminated as if by fill-in lighting.

Experts quoted on the show pointed out that the moon pictures were perfectly framed and exposed even though the cameras used had no viewfinder or exposure meter and were strapped to the astronauts' chests.

According to moon landing skeptics, there are also numerous inconsistencies between the live TV record and the photographs that were published later.

For example, several photographs, which were supposed to be taken on different parts of the moon's surface, have identical background landscapes. This suggests that they used the same backdrop for several photos supposedly in different areas. Some rather amusing NASA film footage includes the American flag apparently flapping in the wind, a strange phenomena given that, at least according to the modern understanding, there is no atmosphere and therefore no wind on the moon.

One of the most convincing arguments used against the moon landing relates to an official NASA photograph of the Lunar Module on the moon's surface. The photograph shows that there was clearly no sign of disturbance on the soft lunar surface caused by the exhaust of the Lunar Module's powerful descent engine. A crater should have been created in the soft lunar dust.

In response to these accusations, a NASA spokesman on the show said, "There are too many seeming inconsistencies for me to answer to right now. "

Sadaputa das, in his book "Vedic Cosmography and Astronomy" writes on this subject in a sub-chapter entitled "Moon Flight." I will summarize it's contents:
Srila Prabhupada often said that the astronauts have never actually visited the moon. His reasoning was that 1) Demigods do not allow human beings to enter the higher planets because human beings are not qualified to do so. 2) The astronauts did not experience the celestial opulences actually existing on the moon, and therefore could not have gone there.

Srila Prabhupada also described the attempt of the scientists to reach the moon as being as demoniac as the attack of Rahu (SB 5. 24. 3p), and said that Indra would bar such travel. In the Srimad-Bhagavatam, Canto 6, Chapter 4, purport to text 6 and Canto 8, Chapter 5, purport to text 34, he comments that since the moon-god is the presiding deity of vegetation, there must be vegetation on the moon. Yet the scientists say it is a barren desert.

Srila Prabhupada also made statements suggesting that higher-dimensional travel is needed to reach the moon and he refers to the futility of trying to use mechanical spacecraft. Finally, he indicated that to reach the moon it is first necessary to cross the Manasa Lake and Sumeru Mountain.

So as ISKCON devotees we are left with various possibilities:

1) Astronauts did indeed land on the moon, but they did not perceive the world of the demigods (Candraloka) because it is invisible to gross sense perception.

2) The astronauts were deluded by the demigods at some stage in their journey and diverted to the planet Rahu. (SB 4. 29. 69p)

3) The entire moon-landing story is a complete conspiracy, which has fooled millions of people all over the world for over 30 years. (Some say that they filmed the "moon's surface" in a place in America known as Area 51, according to the TV program.)

Perhaps in the near future we will never know for sure, but it is logical to suggest that at some time in the future we will. If the truth is indeed different to how NASA has been portraying it, ISKCON is in a prime position to say something about it.

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What His Divine Grace Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami said about"Moon Landings" etc:


Prabhupada: So he went to purchase something from a grocer. The grocer asked him, “Why you are shaven-headed?” “Oh, such person has..., is now dead.”
Trivikrama: Sargal Singh?
Prabhupada: No, I’ll come to that. So the grocer also thought, “Now I also should shave.” Something saying like that. Then another man met him. He also said. He also said. Then at last, one intelligent man, he asked, “Who is this man?” Then again the news come back through the parampara, (laughter) yes, who is this man. Then he called the man, first, who said. He was a dhobi, and his ass was dead. The ass was dead, so hearing, it has gone so far. The other men... The unintelligent persons are like that. They do not know, inquire what is the real thing. Just like twenty years ago I said, “This is all nonsense, moon-going.” And now they are coming: “Oh, it is hoax.” So that is the difference. Twenty years before and “This is all childish waste of money. This rascal will never be able to go to the moon.” And now they are coming. That is the difference. I said from common sense. Naknatranam aham sasi. And we read in the Bhagavatam that to go to the moon planet, one has to execute such yajnas, karma-kanda. We understand from sastra. And how this rascal with a machine will go there? That is a common sense. But they do not believe in the words of the sastra. Rascals, they were bluffed and they believe. Sastra-caknus. Your eyes should be through the sastra. Yah sastra-vidhim utsrjya vartate kama..., na siddhim sa... We believe in this. Therefore I said twenty years before. That is the difference. We take the words of sastra, words of Krnna, ultimate. That’s all. So we have no difficulty. They do not believe in sastra. They do not believe in Krnna. So they were bluffed. That is the difference. We have... I started this movement. It is not manufactured by me. Take the words of authorities and spread. There is no adulteration. There is no alteration. That is... Mahajano yena gatah... (end)
(ACBSP. 1st July 1977. Conversation with devotees, Vrindavana)

Svarupa Damodara: It also makes difficult for others to argue.
Prabhupada: (laughs) When there is argument? Nonsense, how you can argue? And therefore you are rascal. And that is also forbidden. Acintyah khalu ye bhava na tams tarkena yojayet: “Things which are beyond your conception, don’t foolishly argue, rascal.” That will prove your rascaldom. Better accept what the authority says. It is beyond your conception, rascal. Why you are wasting time? That we want to say, that all of them are rascals, and they are simply wasting time by false idea. Cheating. You know, there are companies. They’ll... They have got photographic studio. So they adjust their moon hoax. They’ll help you. If you have got particular idea... They are going to the moon planet, Mars. Nowhere the rascals go. There is no knowledge. How they can go? Teeny, imperfect. So if we can prove that they have no knowledge of the universe, neither of the position of their...
(ACBSP. 21st June 1977. Room Conversation with Swarup Damodar, Vrindavana)

Prabhupada: Vibhrama, the Sanskrit is vibhrama-milita-kriya. The arambha, arambha means endeavor. Very gorgeous. The result is sand and rocks. Going to the moon planet, the arambha was so much expensive. And the result is to bring some sand and rocks. This is hoax. And another: parvatan munakodbhavah. Hoax. There was a great advertisement that the Himalayan mountain is going to deliver a child. So people gathered on, to see, “Oh, such a big mountain. The child must be a very big child.” So they went to see there, and they saw one rat is coming from the hole of.... A rat is coming. They expected another Himalayan mountain, and they saw from the holes, one rat is coming. This is going on. And they are satisfied. “Now the Himalaya has delivered the child.” One rat. (laughs) This attempt is like Himalayas begetting a child. If some elephant would have come, it would have saved the..., not even elephant, one rat. And in English, another is, “Much ado about nothing.”
Hari-sauri: Shakespeare.
Prabhupada: Yes. The result is nothing. What is the meaning of “ado”?
(ACBSP. 18th June 1976. Room Conversation. Toronto)

Hari-sauri: When they originally started sending sputniks to the moon, they couldn’t even land them properly. They would crash, they said that they were crash-landing spaceships into the moon’s surface.
Prabhupada: Crashed?
Hari-sauri: Crash-landing. The spaceship was supposed to just smash into the surface of the moon, like that.
Prabhupada: They have never gone. Simply propaganda. Even they have gone, what is the result? Simply with big report that it is inhabitable.
(ACBSP. 2nd July 1976. Room Conversation. New Vrindavana.)

Prabhupada: Oh, in the summer. Venus is very cold? Why they have selected summer season? (laughter) [break] ...could not go to the moon, and Venus is far above moon. How they will go?
Bali-mardana: They’re not going to Venus, are they?
Paramahamsa: Are they going to Mars?
Bali-mardana: No, they’re just going around the earth, right?
Ambarina: Yeah, they’re linking up in space.
Devotee (3): Prabhupada, when they said they went to the moon and they showed films of them landing and walking on the moon, was this all a bluff?
Prabhupada: Yes, here they... All laboratory work, that’s all.
Devotee (3): They all made it up?
Prabhupada: Yes.
(ACBSP. 2nd June 1975. Morning Walk in Honolulu, Hawaii)

Devotee (2): Did they actually land on the moon, Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: No, they cannot go there. What is the question of landing? They cannot go there. It is far, far away. What you calculated? 1,600,000 miles away, up the sun planet. 1,600,000 miles above the sun. According to your calculation, the sun is away from this planet by 93,000,000 miles. And above that, 1,600,000 miles. Then you go to the moon. How it is possible?
Guru krpa: How is the moon behind the sun?
Prabhupada: Not behind, above.
(ACBSP. 27th May 1975. Morning Walk in Honolulu, Hawaii.)

Madhudvina: The demons are trying to go to the heavenly planets by building their skyscrapers higher and higher.
Prabhupada: Ravana’s, Ravana’s staircase for going to the heaven. He promised that “Oh, what is the use of austerity? I shall make a staircase directly. You can go.” As their... It is the same, Ravana’s staircase and the modern attempt to go to the moon planet, the same thing. They will never be able to go, but imagining that “We shall do it.” The same process, Ravana’s process. For how many years they are going? Since 1950?
Devotee: To the moon expedition?
Prabhupada: Yes, moon expedition.
Devotee: Maybe 1955.
Madhudvina: 1955.
Devotee: The first moon landing was 1961.
Prabhupada: That is beginning. First of all they sent dog. (laughter)
Madhudvina: Space dog. Space mouse.
Prabhupada: Huh? Space mouse.
Devotee: Space monkey also.
Prabhupada: So since 1955 even. So twenty years, what they have done?
Devotee: Spent billions of dollars.
Prabhupada: Yes, simply they have brought little dust, that’s all.
Madhudvina: Now they have found that that same dust is here on the earth.
Prabhupada: Yes. Simply propaganda. They are not going. Now the Russian scientist and American scientist are combined. Because both of them thieves, so one thief is asking, “Don’t expose me. I will not expose you, so that our business will go on.” This is the way. “Let us combine together and cheat these rascals, and otherwise, if you expose me, then I will expose you. Then our business will stop.”
Devotee: They are cooperating.
Prabhupada: Cooperating. Thief, thief’s cooperation.
(ACBSP. 21st May 1975. Morning Walk in Melbourne, Aus.)









-------------------------------------

praty...@gmail.com:

Thema: Re: Proof That They Went to the Moon
Datum: 27.07.2009 19:51:23 Westeuropäische Normalzeit
Von: praty...@gmail.com
An: mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk
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Internet-eMail:

Dear Mahesh Prabhu, welcome back from the dead! Good to see that our super duper quote finder is back!

Here’s even more proof:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSNlxnGrXzw (25 second video)

Your servant, Pratyato?a Dasa


On Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at 1:39 PM, Mahesh Raja <mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

[Urdh...@aol.com]

May 11th 1975 Srila Prabhupada said:
Amogha: He says did they actually get to the moon or not?
Prabhupada: That I am doubtful. Always. [break] …doubt always. Theyhave… They might have gone… Mostly, most probably they have not gone. Simply propaganda. But even they have gone, not to moon. Maybe the Rahuplanet. Or there are so many other planets.
Amogha: Is that Rahu planet closer than the moon to the earth?
Prabhupada: Rahu planet orbit is in between moon and sun. So when itcomes in between moon and sun there is eclipse. At night it is eclipsein the moon, and daytime it is eclipse in the sun


SB 10.14.7: In time, learned philosophers or scientists might beable to count all the atoms of the earth, the particles of snow, orperhaps even the shining molecules radiating from the sun, the starsand other luminaries. But among these learned men, who could possiblycount the unlimited transcendental qualities possessed by You, theSupreme Personality of Godhead, who have descended onto the surface ofthe earth for the benefit of all living entities?

One vers in the 5canto is of great significance in this matter:

Above the rays of the sunshine by a distance of 100,000 yojanas[800,000 miles] is the moon, which travels at a speed faster than thatof the sun. In two lunar fortnights the moon travels through theequivalent of a sam´vatsara of the sun, in two and a quarter days itpasses through a month of the sun, and in one day it passes through afortnight of the sun.PURPORTWhen we take into account that the moon is 100,000 yojanas, or800,000 miles, above the rays of the sunshine, it is very surprisingthat the modern excursions to the moon could be possible. Since themoon is so distant, how space vehicles could go there is a doubtfulmystery. Modern scientific calculations are subject to one change afteranother, and therefore they are uncertain. We have to accept thecalculations of the Vedic literature. These Vedic calculations aresteady; the astronomical calculations made long ago and recorded in theVedic literature are correct even now. Whether the Vedic calculationsor modern ones are better may remain a mystery for others, but as faras we are concerned, we accept the Vedic calculations to be correct.

[Urdh...@aol.com]

Thema: Re: Proof That They Went to the Moon

Simply bluffing

excerpt from conversation, Sydney, Apr 1, 1972PRABHUPADA:The newspaper said that "Mr. such and such went to moon planet." Oh,immediately believe. See? A newspaper, ten cent worth newspaper. And inthe Bhagavad-gita Krishna says, yanti deva vrata devan: [Bg. 9.25] "One who can... One can go to the demigods planets by worshiping them. You can go, yanti deva vrata devan, as others. Similarly, one can come to Me by worshiping Me." Mad yajino 'pi yanti mam.So they never worshiped Chandra, and how they can go to the Chandraplanet, or moon planet? Then Krishna is false. Krishna is imperfect.They become "perfect". They are defying Krishna's instruction. They have gone to moon planet. Then our whole propaganda, Krishnaconsciousness, becomes bogus. Therefore I always protest.

SUDAMA: They have not gone.

PRABHUPADA: They have not gone. We have got our tests. I am speaking from the very beginning, "They have not gone." And practically you see,even if you have gone, what utility you have made? They are simplyplanning, again planning. "We shall get petrol from there. We shallhave defense from there." Simply bluffing, simply bluffing. The Americans will go to the moon planet to defend his country from the Russians. Just see. And we have to believe all these nonsenseproposals. What defense they will do from there? Is it not theproposal? Yes.

It boils down to faith in either God or the scientists

excerpt from morning walk conversation, Los Angeles, Jun 11, 1976
PRABHUPADA:...If we don't believe that they have gone to moon planet, they willreject us. They will immediately take as "Oh, these people are crazy."Even if you give sufficient reason or argument, they will not take it.That is their obstinacy.

RAMESVARA: They're convinced by the photographs.

PRABHUPADA: Eh?

RAMESVARA: They have some photographs of the men in the spacesuits walking around on that other planet.

KIRTANANANDA: But they are convinced because the scientists have told them. They believe the scientists. They have faith, and the scientistscan tell them anything, and they'll believe it.

PRABHUPADA: Yes, that is.... That is the disease.

KIRTANANANDA: They have put faith. Everyone has faith. You cannot livewithout having faith in somebody. So they put their faith in thescientists, and we are saying it is wrong.

HARI-SAURI: Nobody could possibly believe that the scientists would cheat them. They think they are very intelligent, honest men.

PRABHUPADA: No, we have got our faith—in Krishna. Similarly, they have got their faith—in scientists.

HARI-SAURI: That article in the last BTG [Back to Godheadmagazine].... Sadaputa, he said, "So what it boils down to is they areputting their faith in chance, and we are putting our faith in God."

PRABHUPADA: Yes. That is statement of the scientists. Adau shraddha: in everything, faith is the beginning. Adau shraddha. Without faith you cannot make any progress.

A staged production

excerpt from evening conversation, Puri, Jan 25, 1977
SATSVARUPA: What about our promise, in the future also, that you go to Krishna in the future?

PRABHUPADA: We have got proof. Krishna says. We believe in Krishna. You believe in some rascal; we believe in Krishna. That is the difference. Krishna says, tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti [Bg. 4.9]. So we believe that. That's all. We have got evidence. Youhave no evidence. You are simply suggesting in future you'll do. But wehave got evidence.

GARGAMUNI: Sometimes they ask, "Show us somebody who's come [back from there]."

PRABHUPADA: Hm?

GARGAMUNI: "Show us someone who has come from there."

PRABHUPADA: Many.

GARGAMUNI: "But we don't find any."

PRABHUPADA: Many. It is in the shastra. "He was formerly like this, and now he has become this." There are many.

GARGAMUNI: Well, that's in the shastra. They say now we want...

PRABHUPADA: But shastra is the proof. Our proof is shastra. Your proof is your "shastra". Did you go to the moon planet or you believe the newspapers? Have you gone?

GARGAMUNI: No.

PRABHUPADA: Then if you can believe newspaper, why shall I not believe in the Veda, Vedanta?

GARGAMUNI: No, but one man has come.

PRABHUPADA: So one man... You have not done. You have no experience. So one man you believe authority.

GURUKRPA: But we saw the television. They showed on the television.

PRABHUPADA: No. Television could not show that. You can arrange in thelaboratory such television, cheat others. And you have done it. But anyway, television or man or newspaper—you believe on others. You have not personally gone. So you believe some authority. We believe someauthority. What is the difference. You take newspaper as authority. Wetake Vedic literature as authority. Where is the difference? You havepersonally not gone. How do you believe? The difference is that youbelieve somebody, we believe somebody. I asked this question to Professor Kotovsky, that "You believe Lenin; we believe Krishna. Then where is the difference between philosophy?" Now it is to be judged whether Lenin is all right or Krishna is all right. That is anotherthing. But the principle is there. "You believe in Lenin; we believe inKrishna. The process is the same. So where is your improvement?"

Seeing through the eyes of shastra

excerpt from conversation, Vrindaban, Jul 1, 1977
...Twenty years ago I said, "This is all nonsense, moon-going." And now they arecoming: "Oh, it is hoax." So that is the difference. Twenty years before and "This is all childish waste of money. This rascal will neverbe able to go to the moon." And now they are coming. That is thedifference. I said from common sense. Nakshatranam aham shashi. And we read in the Bhagavatam that to go to the moon planet, one has to execute such yajñas, karma-kanda [sacrifices, pious activities]. We understand from shastra [revealed scriptures - the words of the Supreme Personality of Godheadand His representatives, the Acharyas and saintly persons]. And how this rascal with a machine will go there? That is a common sense. But they do not believe in the words of the shastra. Rascals, they were bluffed and they believe. Shastra-chakshus. Your eyes should be through the shastra. Yah shastra-vidhim utsrijya vartate kama-karatah, na sa siddhim avapnoti [Bg. 16.23]. We believe in this. Therefore I said twenty years before. That is the difference. We take the words of shastra, words of Krishna, ultimate. That's all. So we have no difficulty. They do not believe in shastra. They do not believe in Krishna. So they were bluffed. That is the difference.

[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

Okay, so I was wrong about the Australian Radio telescope having an “all Australian staff.” There were a few NASA people also. Please forgive me.

However, these videos (see below) were made by self-motivated people who’s dogmatic religion is that the moon landings were a hoax. Even when Japan, China and/or India go to the moon and photograph the Apollo astronauts footprints on the surface of the moon, they will still make up some foolish concoction to try and explain them away!

None of these videos explain the recent photographs of the landing sites, which in the near future, will probably be verified by lunar probes from other countries.

Here are some comments on the videos:

All you guys need to get a life, JB tracked the Apollo 11 mission and have all the evidence just ask them, I have never heard such utter rubbish on these comments from people who are totally misinformed!!!

Seconded. I’ve watched quite a few of Jarrah’s “exhibits” now  and find them quite laughable for the most part!
Poor science, flawed conclusions, reliance on “experts” who either aren’t in possession of all the facts or who simply don’t know what they’re talking about, etc. Still, he clearly feels strongly about what he’s doing so fair play to him - at least it keeps him off the streets!
(Oh, and Jarrah, it’s pronounced “Apollo,” not “A polo”…)

For 40 yrs, nobody directly involved in the coverup has come forward to provide proof. This means that anyone who was NOT directly involved has no direct knowledge of it. Therefore, every aspect of the hoax theory was not pulled from actual facts or evidence, but rather from someones imagination. In other words, it is a work of fiction. The fact that a few pictures and minutes of film appear to match the hoax story doesn’t make it true, especially when the rest of the evidence contradicts it.

The conversation that you quoted (See below) proves that Śrīla Prabhupāda kept an open mind on the subject of the Apollo moon landings Therefore, we should also keep open minds and not fall prey to the hoax theorist’s dogmatic beliefs.

Your servant, Pratyatoṣa Dāsa

[Greg Jay]

I guess you guys have nothing better than to discuss this. What does it matter? Either way?

GKD

[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

It matters because devotees who don’t have the slightest idea what they are talking about are making fools of themselves by clinging tenaciously to this bogus moon landing hoax theory. Therefore, they are simply an embarrassment to Śṛīla Prabhupāda.

[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

Here’s an answer to your query that I found on http://www.dandavats.com/?p=7481:

The topic is essentially a non-issue, unless:

1) It is brought up in public vaishnava forums and the poster sides with a conspiracy theory based on bad science and profiteering, without ever having scrutinized the “proof” offered.

2) The same scenario as number 1, but with the added bonus that “Prabhupada said they never went to the moon,” bas (as in, question this and you have your one-way ticket to Hell).

3) It is brought up in public with endless wrangling about the cosmology of “the Fifth Canto,” of which I think there is no one who actually understands what it is all about.

4) Perhaps other circumstances?

You see, if it really were a non-issue all the time for everyone, no one would ever have blooped over it, refrained from joining over it, felt defensive over it, or seen a need to take shelter of conspiracy theories. One fact is that it is an issue because of the propagation of absolute statements on the matter.

Also, please check out his website (He’s in Alachua): http://kuruvinda.com/MoonHoax01.shtml

On Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at 11:39 PM, Greg Jay <jay....@gmail.com> wrote:

[Alexandre Jablonski]

"Okay, so I was wrong about the Australian Radio telescope having an 'all Australian staff.' There were a few NASA people also. Please forgive me."

Pratyatosa Prabhu, Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. Thanks for your response. To be fair, what the narrator says in the third video that posted is the following: "But as we've just demonstrated, it was Australia, and only Australia, who were receiving the television signals from the moon. And NASA owned those Australian telescopes." Which is then followed by some black and white footage with the following narration: "The space tracking station at Honeysuckle Creek has a staff of about 100, and all but a handful are Australians. However the station and its millions of dollars worth of sophisticated equipment is owned by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration of the United States. When astronaut Neil Armstrong takes his first steps on the moon, Australian stations will be the only ones receiving the signal." From what I understand, the narrator is asserting that the Australian radio telescope is a NASA radio telescope, which happens to be located in Australia, and which was staffed by Australians who are NASA employees. What I understand is that there were a few people there who were not Australians, but that all the people there were employed by a facility owned by NASA. In the first video that I posted, near the end, the narrator asserts: "The Australian radio telescopes, such as Parks and Honeysuckle Creek, are often presented as the ultimate independent verification for the Apollo missions. But they are not independent observatories. All the Australian tracking stations are part of NASA's deep space network." In the second video, we have the following statement: "To create a simulation is really not all that difficult. Because if all the input comes from NASA, and goes to NASA, and you knew that was the case...all Apollo communications were handled from and to NASA...so they had complete control."

Pratyatosa Prabhu, you wrote: "None of these videos explain the recent photographs of the landing sites, which in the near future, will probably be verified by lunar probes from other countries."

Thank you for the above link. Below is a link to a video that presents an alternate perspective on the LRO photos, as well as some commentary on the Indian, Chinese and Japanese missions, the need for independent verification, and a comment on "living in an evidence-based reality": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5kHPexBIWk Thanks also for the link to Kuruvinda Prabhu's site, which you included in another post to this discussion group. His site has an interesting list of quotes from Srila Prabhupada, which I found valuable to read. It was also interesting for me to read Kuruvinda Prabhu's commentary on Srila Prabhupada's statements, and to observe my own internal response to that commentary. Some of the quotes that Kuruvinda provides are the following:   Srila Prabhupada: Yes. First of all my conviction: they have gone nowhere. They have simply stayed in their laboratory, that's all. (Morning Walk,  June 2nd, 1975, Honolulu)   Dr. Patel: I have heard that the man could have first landed on moon and then... Srila Prabhupada: Nobody landed. This is all bogus. (Morning Walk, November 3rd, 1975, Bombay)   Ramesvara: They have got that dust. They say they got that from another planet. Srila Prabhupada: Dust you can take it from here, from this beach. Ramesvara: So then they're lying. Srila Prabhupada: Yes. (Morning Walk, June 4th, 1976, Los Angeles)   Hari-sauri: That other argument that you use about how the moon rays give life to the vegetables... So how is it that there's no life on the moon? If the rays from the moon give life, then how is it there's no life where the rays come from? Srila Prabhupada: They have never gone to moon. (laughs) All bogus. (Room Conversation, July 2nd, 1976, New Vrindaban)   "Just like we are now trying, the modern scientists. We are trying to go to the moon planet. It is failure. They will never be able to go there." (Bhagavad-gita 16.8 lecture, Hyderabad, December 16th, 1976)   Below are some other quotes I read this morning, and that I didn't find included in Kuruvinda Prabhu's helpful list:   Srila Prabhupada: They invented stories for going to the moon planet.  Svarupa Damodara: Yeah, they're making stories about everything.  Srila Prabhupada: A small toy sputnik, background, a big picture, and photograph. (...) Srila Prabhupada: This is intellectual dishonesty. They produce sputnik and going to the moon in the laboratory.  Svarupa Damodara: Yes.  Srila Prabhupada: And then it is exposed, "Moon Hoax." This is intellect... There was a... There were many films. One film was... What is that? A big monkey?  Tamala Krsna: King Kong.  Srila Prabhupada: (laughs) King Kong. They are producing chemical laboratory, yes, studio, and the monkey played...  Tamala Krsna: Yeah, they showed him going up and down the Empire State Building in a movie.  Srila Prabhupada: And it was so interesting, it gathered so many public to see.  Tamala Krsna: Now they have another one, "King Kong Returns." Still it's very popular.  Srila Prabhupada: So they can do these things. (Talk with Svarupa Damodara, June 20th, 1977, Vrndavana)   Srila Prabhupada: (...) Cheating. You know, there are companies. They'll... They have got photographic studio. So they adjust their moon hoax. They'll help you. If you have got particular idea... They are going to the moon planet, Mars. Nowhere the rascals go. (...) Svarupa Damodara: ...intellectually dishonest, try to propagate a false knowledge in the name of scientific knowledge.  Srila Prabhupada: That moon hoax. (Conversation with Svarupa Damodara, June 21st, 1977, Vrndavana)   Srila Prabhupada: We say that "You have never gone to moon." They will say, "Yes, we have gone." Now they have mentioned, "It is hoax." So how we can believe them? What is the value of their statement? And they promise future, "Yes, we are trying." (Bhu-mandala Discussion, July 3rd, 1977, Vrndavana)   Tamala Krsna: Our conclusion was that those three men who died were killed, that they never knew that there was a hoax while they were in training. Then, at the time when the spacecraft was going to take off they were told, "Now you're not going anywhere. This is only a hoax, so you have to act like this," and probably they did not want to. They refused. Therefore they were killed. We were discussing this yesterday, Gargamuni, Sridhara Maharaja, Bali-mardana and myself. That was our conclusion, that those men must have been killed by the government.  Srila Prabhupada: Otherwise they'll disclose. (...) Tamala Krsna: Everything is reasonable. But so were your reasons. Just like when you met with the reporter from Los Angeles Times, I remember last year... When this question comes up they, inside they are laughing. When they hear our opinion they think it is a joke. They cannot conceive that the whole thing could be a hoax. We were discussing that actually, that the nation is more dear to most people than their family is, because one will get divorced from his family, but who will give up citizenship? Very rarely does anyone give up his citizenship. But people divorce again and again. So to... The nation is something very strong, that affection, and nation, in America, means this moon shot, all of these things, the truthfulness of the leaders. So this is too shocking. Probably the American people could not swallow it.  Srila Prabhupada: Yes. (indistinct) Lie. (Morning Conversation, April 23rd, 1977, Bombay)   Srila Prabhupada: (...) That is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gita, urdhva-mulam adhah-sakham asvattham. prahur avyayam [Bg. 15.1]. That is a fact. It is hanging and moving. And moon is above the sun. They have never gone. Now they are exposing. "Moon walks."  Tamala Krsna: Moon hoax. (Morning Conversation, April 30th, 1977, Bombay)   Thanks for reading, and all the best, Alex

--- On Mon, 7/27/09, Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com>

Yahoo! Canada Toolbar : Search from anywhere on the web and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now!

[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

I just thought of something, Chaturbahu Prabhu. Maybe you are logging on to http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi and replying that way instead of the recommended way: Using your Yahoo email account. The reason that I didn’t think of it earlier is because I’ve never done that.

Your servant, Pratyatoṣa Dāsa, Moderator

[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

Thank you very much, Bhakta Alex Prabhu, for the interesting quotes, and I want to especially thank you for also including the corresponding links.

Please forgive me for repeating myself, but these moon hoax theorists are self-motivated people who’s dogmatic religion is that the moon landings were a hoax. Even when Japan, China and/or India go to the moon and photograph the Apollo astronaut’s footprints on the surface of the moon, they will still make up some foolish concoction to try and explain them away so that they can sell more books and videos to a gullible public!

My understanding is that higher resolution photographs will be available as soon as the LRO descends into a lower lunar orbit.

Your servant, Pratyatoṣa Dāsa

[Bhaktatraveler]

Hare Krsna Pratyatosa d   Wait a minute, your understanding of a 'possible' better look in the future appears to be a post dated check. The link you provide in your most resent post is only a general search on moon surface. I looked at the landing site pictures on one link and was absolutely not convince they pose solid evidence of going to the moon. In fact, still looks like a scam.   I have tried to keep up, but the videos are on average useless to me(deaf) so I'm only reading text sites and messages. I admit I could be bereft of a major portion in evidence do to no sound.   I have to say I still am mostly interested in what Srila Prabhupada has to say. I do not now, nor have I ever been very much inclined to trust what comes from MSM or our demoniac goober-ment. I was that way before Srila Prabhupada even came to the US and it has proved to suite me well.   Oswald did not kill Kennedy, there is no such thing as a magic bullet twisting and turning multiple times like a pin ball! Like many of us, I have killed and know first hand how bullets react in flesh. There are no magic bullets.   Looks to me that Prabhupada overwhelmingly states it is a fraud. What are the very last statements on the subject from Srila Prabhupada? Are they those further down in this post?   If a thousand amateur astronomers post Youtube video's of the bombing of the moon to take place in October then that would be something big on the side of at least going there. Then again how long is it taking for this bomb to be delivered? 3 months of so? And if it is thousands of %  longer than the original flight, then why?   Hare Krsna   RCBhakti

--- On Tue, 7/28/09, Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Proof That They Went to the Moon

[Bhaktatraveler]

No, I'm using Yahoo. I just didn't pay attention to the CC list and clicked as I usually do on just reply. Next time I will pay more attention to the header. Thanks for all your technical help, I'm not very savvy in that world any more. I knew COBOL and the old languages(Basic. FORTRAN, Pascal, Assembly and Machine) but after leaving a computer operator position in 84'  I never keep interest in it any more, I absolutely hated the work environment. Now I'm even more than a dinosaur and have to be walked trough it like a kid. LOL.   Krsna is wonderful! And has/is taking away all those stumbling blocks I had. All I have now is this body! Very liberating!       Hare Krsna   RCB

--- On Tue, 7/28/09, Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Proof That They Went to the Moon To: istag...@googlegroups.com

[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

Chaturbahu Prabhu, any chance you could talk to this devotee?:

http://kuruvinda.com/MoonHoax01.shtml

(He’s in Alachua)

Here’s something interesting that I found in the VedaBase which backs up my theory that they were made to feel unwelcome by the beings residing there:

SWAMI SAYS PEOPLE ARE LIVING ON MOON! The Los Angeles Times reports three days after the wedding.
MAY OPPOSE ASTRONAUTS!

Prabhupada tells the astounded reporter that the moon is an upper planet inhabited by demigods.

“But with this body, you cannot land there,” he says, “nor can you interfere in their business. They would be almost invisible.”

This write-up provokes many strange phone calls to the temple. Surprisingly, most callers agree with Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhupada discards all propaganda about the planned moon landing.

“They will never get there by these artificial, mechanical means,” he insists. “But even if they manage somehow, the demigods would kick them out.”

Some people, disturbed by this, leave. But most devotees consider it unimportant, saying, “If Prabhupada says it, it’s so.”

(End of Chapter 15, The Hare Krishna Explosion by Hayagriva dasa)

Your servant, Pratyatoṣa Dāsa

[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

Oh. Okay. Problem solved then. Very good, Prabhu.

For years, all I knew was FORTRAN. Then, even though I didn’t like it, the US Navy forced me to learn some COBOL and assembly language. This was good for me, however, because it had a mind expanding effect and thus allowed me to learn new programming languages more easily. I had one computer programming contract at the General Motors Argonaut Building in New City, Detroit that forced me to learn a little PASCAL.

Now I mainly use HTML, JavaScript, Perl, and a little bit of PHP.

Nice to hear that we have something in common.

Your servant, Pratyatoṣa Dāsa

[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

Just see, Chaturbahu Prabhu, you’re in good company. Praghosa Prabhu agrees with you! (See below)

Your servant, Pratyatoṣa Dāsa

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 10:51 AM
Subject: Re: Proof That They Went to the Moon
To: istag...@googlegroups.com

Chaturbahu Prabhu, any chance you could talk to this devotee?:

http://kuruvinda.com/MoonHoax01.shtml

(He’s in Alachua)

Here’s something interesting that I found in the VedaBase which backs up my (and Sadaputa’s) theory that they were made to feel unwelcome by the beings residing there:

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Patrick Hedemark <pdhed...@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 10:57 AM
Subject: Re: Proof That They Went to the Moon
To:

Pratyatosa prabhu,

 

PAMHO AGTSP

 

You state:

 

"Please forgive me for repeating myself, but these moon hoax theorists are self-motivated people who’s dogmatic religion is that the moon landings were a hoax. Even when Japan, China and/or India go to the moon and photograph the Apollo astronaut’s footprints on the surface of the moon, they will still make up some foolish concoction to try and explain them away so that they can sell more books and videos to a gullible public!"

 

Amongst most devotees I know - this is not an important issue. However - your comment above fails to convey a correct perception for why ANY devotee would have ever really bothered with the subject in the first  place; the assertions made by our Spiritual Master from the day the alleged landings occurred in July of 1969 - until as late as 1977.

 

He was the first person I personally ever encountered anywhere - who even broached the subject. He not only suggested that the moon landings were a "bluff" and/or "hoax" but in fact - he insisted that this was in fact the case. He offered various ways of approaching the matter - all with the ultimate point of exposing the "blind faith" of people in general in the material scientists and the governments who move under their influence. From simple comments like "all over the world Sunday comes before Monday on the calender - to "the Bhagavatam insists that the Sun is closer to the earth than the moon" both defied mundane logic and accepted science - and forced us all to consider just how little tangible evidence ever supports much or most of what the scientists, religionists and politicians affirm.

 

So you have a little background in physics and this makes you the exception to Srila Prabhupada's comments and/or his purpose for expressing them?

 

Don't think so my friend.

 

Easy Journey to Other Planets is filled with comments on this so-called "space travel" and they are perfect.

 

Srila Prabhupada had his reasons for identifying the entire project as a bluff and a hoax. We just accept it - even if we cannot fully explain it to anyone's, everyone's or your satisfaction.

 

When you scoff at such simple reactions to the words of Srila Prabhupada - by anyone - inside or outside of his shelter - you offer more evidence as to your own conditioning and bias than you do on the condition or motivation of others.

 

Srila Prabhupada chuckled at the uselessness of it all. Whether they went or did not - we could no more eat the dust they purported to dig up and bring with them on their return - than we could the "nuts and bolts" he likewise insisted were equally inedible and therefore without any "real" value. This was the very bright heart of the derision and doubt he cast upon the whole venture. He did this for our benefit. He did not insert his views on the subject - calling it hoax and bluff - in order to "make up some foolish concoction to try and explain them away so that he could sell more books and videos to a gullible public!"

 

Respectfully

 

Praghosa

 

[gaura...@gmail.com]

Thanks good point!

2009/7/28 Greg Jay <jay....@gmail.com>

[Alexandre Jablonski]

"Please forgive me for repeating myself, but these moon hoax theorists are self-motivated people who’s dogmatic religion is that the moon landings were a hoax. Even when Japan, China and/or India go to the moon and photograph the Apollo astronaut’s footprints on the surface of the moon, they will still make up some foolish concoction to try and explain them away so that they can sell more books and videos to a gullible public!"

Pratyatosa Prabhu, thanks for your response. Below are two quotes spoken by Jarrah White, from narration in the LRO video that I had linked in my previous post, in connection with the thoughts you've shared above:            "Far from being the stubborn deniers that propagandists try to paint conspiracy theorists as, I am not simply dismissing this out of reflex. I'm just putting it all in retrospect. Bill Kaysing himself even stated that he would publicly apologize to the Apollo astronauts if proven wrong. As the grandson of the Apollo moon hoax theory, I will gladly fulfill that promise if that time comes. Quite frankly, I'd more than welcome the folks at the Gemini Observatory to take their telescope to find the artifacts, as Joss Hawthorne stated that he would, years ago." (...) "Quite frankly, if you want to talk about people who stick their fingers in their ears and sing: 'Lalalalalalala, I can't hear you!', why not start with the pro-NASA side? On the Bad Astronomy forums, Jay Windley, the leader of all propagandists, was quoted as saying: 'Even if Neil Armstrong admitted it was a hoax, I still wouldn't believe it'. And here they say that we don't live in an evidence-based reality?"   Below are some additional comments relating to the moon, from Srila Prabhupada, spoken in 1976 and 1977, which I found interesting:   Srila Prabhupada: And they're taking it, highly civilized way of life. Where you are going? You cannot go beyond this earth. You attempted so much to go to the moon planet, you failed. And where you can go, put-put-put-put? You'll have to stay here. (Room Conversation, April 27th, 1976, Auckland, New Zealand)   Srila Prabhupada: The whole world is full of rascals. What they cannot do, what they could not do, what they'll never be able to do... Still, they will persist. This is the difficulty. They have never gone to moon planet, their aeroplane. They cannot go anywhere. (Room Conversation with Mr. Myer,  July 2nd, 1977, Vrndavana)   Srila Prabhupada: Why if one is settled up that he's a rascal, we should not hear anything. And why not? He has not gone to the moon. They are insisting, "Yes, we have gone," by false propaganda. Why the one who makes false propaganda and one who says nonsense, we have to believe? Immediately, whatever he says, reject. (...) Tamala Krsna: Man came and said he could do anything. Make any trick or illusion. (indistinct) Srila Prabhupada: And they have done so in the matter of moon planet. They've never gone there by laboratory arrangement. Arizona? Tamala Krsna: Arizona. (...) Srila Prabhupada: How they can? Scientist is rascal. That is proved. They are insisting that chemical can produce life. He's a rascal. They have gone to moon planet. That's a rascal. So what is the value of so-called scientist. Why should we give any importance? I'm not giving any importance. (Bhu-mandala Discussion, July 3rd, 1977, Vrndavana)   Srila Prabhupada:  (...) All theory, no practical. Unnecessarily spent millions and millions of dollars, that "We have gone to moon." Why? Why this bogus propaganda? What is the value? And they take pride. Now we are drawing picture how many miles away. It is impossible to find out. And why they make this bogus propaganda? Tamala Krsna: It's totally impossible they went to the moon. Srila Prabhupada: No, they have not gone, but still, they are making such a big propaganda. What is the mentality? Tamala Krsna: Cheaters. Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Tamala Krsna: Cheaters, sense gratifiers. Prabhupada: Cheating propensity is so strong. (...) (Conversations, June 28th, 1977, Vrndavana)     Srila Prabhupada: ...there is sun, and above that, there is moon. And they are going to moon. They are going nowhere, simply taking laboratory photo, studio photo, and cheating. Why this cheating can go on? You do not know. That's all. Who is insisting that "We must know"? (Showing of Planetary Sketches, June 28th, 1977, Vrndavana)     Srila Prabhupada: (...) This... So you rascal, you can believe in that, but we'll not believe. You can say. What do you know about moon? It is all rascaldom. It may be good for rascals like you, not for intelligent man like me. (Room Conversation about BTG the Moon,  February 18th, 1977, Mayapura)     Srila Prabhupada: (...) This is now happening. "The moon planet is a desert." And from the desert such brilliant light is coming that is illuminating at night the whole universe. And we have to believe it because they are spoken by scientists. You see? All rascals, fools, rogues, thieves, they are leading. And our determination is to stop these rascals. That is our... It is not that "Let the rascals go on with their... Let us make our salvation." Prahlada Maharaja said, "No, no, no, I don't want. I don't want. If there is salvation, I must take them also." This is Vaisnava. (...) (Room Conversation, April 13th, 1977, Bombay)     Srila Prabhupada: But sastra is the proof. Our proof is sastra. Your proof is your sastra. Did you go to the moon planet or you believe the newspapers? Have you gone? Gargamuni: No. Srila Prabhupada: Then if you can believe newspaper, why shall not believe in the Veda, Vedanta? Gargamuni: No, but one man has come. Srila Prabhupada: So one man... You have not done. You have no experience. So one man you believe authority. Gurukrpa: But we saw the television. They showed on the television. Srila Prabhupada: No. Television could not show that. You can arrange in the laboratory such television, cheat others. (...) (Evening Conversation, January 25th, 1977, Puri)     Srila Prabhupada: Our another challenge is they have never gone to moon planet. (laughs) (Room Conversation with Svarupa Damodara,  January 30th, 1977, Bhuvanesvara)     Tamala Krsna: They asked that to Balavanta on national television, to explain how it is possible. Srila Prabhupada: So how to rectify it? They have not gone to the moon. (Room Conversation, February 17th, 1977, Mayapura)     Srila Prabhupada: That is asura. That is, that means asura. They have already tried the moon excursion, failure, again do it. This will be a failure, again do it. (...) Srila Prabhupada: They are wonderful rascals. Shameless. Wonderful shameless rascals. They say that the moon planet is desert, vacant, no living entities. And we say that it is the planet for the pious men to live there very opulently for ten thousand... Of these two classes of knowledge, which is better? (...) Srila Prabhupada: So how long they'll present the same theory over and over again? They're already putting the same thing. They have concluded in the moon there is rocks and sand, nobody can live. The same thing they are saying in a different way, and in the end they will have to say like that. (Room Conversation, August 11th, 1976, Tehran)   Srila Prabhupada: They are trying to go to the moon planet. In that way it is not possible. You have to be qualified to go there. Not by machine, by force you can go there. That is not possible. (Conversation with Seven Ministers of Andhra Pradesh, August 22nd, 1976, Hyderabad)   Srila Prabhupada: Just see, a rascal scientist, "Full of dust." Jagad-guru: Their brains are full of dust. Srila Prabhupada: Yes. They have never gone to the moon planet. Simply bluff. [break] (Morning Walk and Room Conversation,  December 7th, 1976, Hyderabad)   Srila Prabhupada: Cartharian civilization was very big civilization. The thing is that the more people become sinful, they'll be disturbed by this natural atmosphere. Therefore I'm surprised that moon planet is inhabited by pious inhabitants, how there can be desert? (Morning Walk and Room Conversation, August 9th, 1976, Tehran) All the best, Alex

--- On Tue, 7/28/09, Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Proof That They Went to the Moon To: istag...@googlegroups.com

---

The new Internet Explorer® 8 - Faster, safer, easier. Optimized for Yahoo! Get it Now for Free!

[Bhaktatraveler]

Bk Mark or a son would have to help me, but yes I will make an attempt to contact him from the devotee phone list to set up a met, if he is willing.   I also have always considered it(moon landing) less important in the long run and am only posting here and reading because it was brought up.   Still I'm not solid either way, I do like the quotes you gave and will read more to qualify context to my mind later. I'm a bit under the weather today and a little slow.   Hare Krsna   RCB

--- On Tue, 7/28/09, Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Proof That They Went to the Moon To: istag...@googlegroups.com

Date: Tuesday, July 28, 2009, 10:51 AM

Chaturbahu Prabhu, any chance you could talk to this devotee?:

http://kuruvinda.com/MoonHoax01.shtml (He’s in Alachua)

Here’s something interesting that I found in the VedaBase which backs up my theory that they were made to feel unwelcome by the beings residing there:

SWAMI SAYS PEOPLE ARE LIVING ON MOON! The Los Angeles Times reports three days after the wedding. MAY OPPOSE ASTRONAUTS! Prabhupada tells the astounded reporter that the moon is an upper planet inhabited by demigods. “But with this body, you cannot land there,” he says, “nor can you interfere in their business. They would be almost invisible.” This write-up provokes many strange phone calls to the temple. Surprisingly, most callers agree with Srila Prabhupada. Prabhupada discards all propaganda about the planned moon landing. “They will never get there by these artificial, mechanical means,” he insists. “But even if they manage somehow, the demigods would kick them out.” Some people, disturbed by this, leave. But most devotees consider it unimportant, saying, “If Prabhupada says it, it’s so.” (End of Chapter 15, The Hare Krishna Explosion by Hayagriva dasa)

Your servant, Pratyatoṣa Dāsa

[Bhaktatraveler]

But only as much as dinosaurs have earth bound DNA. LOL. Your into stuff gone to the great beyond/scifi of programing, LOL.

RCB     --- On Tue, 7/28/09, Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Proof That They Went to the Moon To: istag...@googlegroups.com

Date: Tuesday, July 28, 2009, 11:04 AM

Oh. Okay. Problem solved then. Very good, Prabhu. For years, all I knew was FORTRAN. Then, even though I didn’t like it, the US Navy forced me to learn some COBOL and assembly language. This was good for me, however, because it had a mind expanding effect and thus allowed me to learn new programming languages more easily. I had one computer programming contract at the General Motors Argonaut Building in New City, Detroit that forced me to learn a little PASCAL. Now I mainly use HTML, JavaScript, Perl, and a little bit of PHP. Nice to hear that we have something in common.

Your servant, Pratyatoṣa Dāsa

[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

I just now got an email from him. His name is Varnadi.

Sorry to hear that your material body is giving you trouble today. Please get well soon. I’ve found that the Āyurveda’s prescriptions for dietary adjustments are very effective.

Your servant, Pratyatoṣa Dāsa

[Bhaktatraveler]

But that is someones memory of 'Prabhupada said' I can not except it as vani on it's own. I like to hear directly from the Guru in tapes or such. I do not reject off hand either! Just caution is my way of approaching a thing I've not had conclusion from Guru on.  I might never come to a consciences for myself and am content to leave it as it is.   As for preaching to the general population, I leave that to the brahminical types, but would like to add caution as a way to move forward. In that respect the quotes provided are good I think for the general subject matter. Didn't some one previously quote directly from Prabhupada a snip-it that supported these conclusions?   Hare Krsna

RCB   --- On Tue, 7/28/09, Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Proof That They Went to the Moon

To: aabha...@gmail.com, abhaya_m...@yahoo.com, adik...@gmail.com, anad...@yahoo.com, angin...@yahoo.com, ann.tr...@gmail.com, aryaan...@yahoo.com, basugh...@gmail.com, bhag...@hotmail.com, bhoj...@yahoo.com, bvsa...@gmail.com, compo...@yahoo.com, das...@pop.jaring.my, david...@dslextreme.com, d...@southwind.net, doro...@dslextreme.com, dway...@yahoo.com, ene...@dslextreme.com, esw...@sbcglobal.net, fallenf...@yahoo.com, fmor...@dharmacentral.com, frank-...@hotmail.com, gerisch...@yahoo.com, graem...@gmail.com, gregpr...@yahoo.com, gururagh...@yahoo.com, guruva...@yahoo.com, hms...@yahoo.com, in...@farmeducation.org, istag...@googlegroups.com, james...@email.com, jay....@gmail.com, jgc...@yahoo.com, jiva...@yahoo.com, kanhaiya...@hotmail.com, krishna...@yahoo.com, krsna...@yahoo.com, lak...@webtv.net, law...@juno.com, madh...@yahoo.com, mahar...@hotmail.com, mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk, meiz...@yahoo.com, messenger...@yahoo.com, mgr...@sbcglobal.net, mitche...@netzero.net, mrs...@verizon.net, mystiq...@yahoo.com, newlife...@yahoo.com, ne...@srilaprabhupada.com, nihar_...@yahoo.com, nimai...@gmail.com, orland...@gmail.com, pg1...@netzero.com, raghu...@rogers.com, rainbo...@yahoo.com, ram...@aol.com, ramar...@yahoo.com, ramr...@aol.com, remote....@gmail.com, rosemar...@netzero.com, royalt...@yahoo.com, royric...@yahoo.com, sansk...@gmail.com, she_ra_ven...@yahoo.com, shutup...@hotmail.com, stevie...@gmail.com, sunand...@hotmail.com, taru...@yahoo.com, trini...@aol.com, urdh...@aol.com, vibh...@yahoo.com, vidu...@hotmail.com, visho...@yahoo.com, visv...@hotmail.com, william...@jagannatha.com, windfl...@yahoo.com, w...@aol.com, wooro...@aol.com, wzo...@yahoo.com, zon...@hotmail.com, pedro...@gmail.com

Date: Tuesday, July 28, 2009, 11:13 AM

Just see, Chaturbahu Prabhu, you’re in good company. Praghosa Prabhu agrees with you! (See below) Your servant, Pratyatoṣa Dāsa

---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com> Date: Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 10:51 AM Subject: Re: Proof That They Went to the Moon To: istag...@googlegroups.com

Chaturbahu Prabhu, any chance you could talk to this devotee?:

http://kuruvinda.com/MoonHoax01.shtml (He’s in Alachua)

Here’s something interesting that I found in the VedaBase which backs up my (and Sadaputa’s) theory that they were made to feel unwelcome by the beings residing there:

SWAMI SAYS PEOPLE ARE LIVING ON MOON! The Los Angeles Times reports three days after the wedding. MAY OPPOSE ASTRONAUTS! Prabhupada tells the astounded reporter that the moon is an upper planet inhabited by demigods. “But with this body, you cannot land there,” he says, “nor can you interfere in their business. They would be almost invisible.” This write-up provokes many strange phone calls to the temple. Surprisingly, most callers agree with Srila Prabhupada. Prabhupada discards all propaganda about the planned moon landing. “They will never get there by these artificial, mechanical means,” he insists. “But even if they manage somehow, the demigods would kick them out.” Some people, disturbed by this, leave. But most devotees consider it unimportant, saying, “If Prabhupada says it, it’s so.” (End of Chapter 15, The Hare Krishna Explosion by Hayagriva dasa)

Your servant, Pratyatoṣa Dāsa

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 10:20 AM, Bhaktatraveler <bhaktat...@yahoo.com> wrote: Hare Krsna Pratyatosa d   Wait a minute, your understanding of a 'possible' better look in the future appears to be a post dated check. The link you provide in your most resent post is only a general search on moon surface. I looked at the landing site pictures on one link and was absolutely not convince they pose solid evidence of going to the moon. In fact, still looks like a scam.   I have tried to keep up, but the videos are on average useless to me(deaf) so I'm only reading text sites and messages. I admit I could be bereft of a major portion in evidence do to no sound.   I have to say I still am mostly interested in what Srila Prabhupada has to say. I do not now, nor have I ever been very much inclined to trust what comes from MSM or our demoniac goober-ment. I was that way before Srila Prabhupada even came to the US and it has proved to suite me well.   Oswald did not kill Kennedy, there is no such thing as a magic bullet twisting and turning multiple times like a pin ball! Like many of us, I have killed and know first hand how bullets react in flesh. There are no magic bullets.   Looks to me that Prabhupada overwhelmingly states it is a fraud. What are the very last statements on the subject from Srila Prabhupada? Are they those further down in this post?   If a thousand amateur astronomers post Youtube video's of the bombing of the moon to take place in October then that would be something big on the side of at least going there. Then again how long is it taking for this bomb to be delivered? 3 months of so? And if it is thousands of %  longer than the original flight, then why?   Hare Krsna   RCBhakti

---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Patrick Hedemark <pdhed...@yahoo.com>

Date: Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 10:57 AM Subject: Re: Proof That They Went to the Moon To:

Pratyatosa prabhu,   PAMHO AGTSP   You state:

"Please forgive me for repeating myself, but these moon hoax theorists are self-motivated people who’s dogmatic religion is that the moon landings were a hoax. Even when Japan, China and/or India go to the moon and photograph the Apollo astronaut’s footprints on the surface of the moon, they will still make up some foolish concoction to try and explain them away so that they can sell more books and videos to a gullible public!"

Amongst most devotees I know - this is not an important issue. However - your comment above fails to convey a correct perception for why ANY devotee would have ever really bothered with the subject in the first  place; the assertions made by our Spiritual Master from the day the alleged landings occurred in July of 1969 - until as late as 1977.   He was the first person I personally ever encountered anywhere - who even broached the subject. He not only suggested that the moon landings were a "bluff" and/or "hoax" but in fact - he insisted that this was in fact the case. He offered various ways of approaching the matter - all with the ultimate point of exposing the "blind faith" of people in general in the material scientists and the governments who move under their influence. From simple comments like "all over the world Sunday comes before Monday on the calender - to "the Bhagavatam insists that the Sun is closer to the earth than the moon" both defied mundane logic and accepted science - and forced us all to consider just how little tangible evidence ever supports much or most of what the scientists, religionists and politicians affirm.   So you have a little background in physics and this makes you the exception to Srila Prabhupada's comments and/or his purpose for expressing them?   Don't think so my friend.   Easy Journey to Other Planets is filled with comments on this so-called "space travel" and they are perfect.   Srila Prabhupada had his reasons for identifying the entire project as a bluff and a hoax. We just accept it - even if we cannot fully explain it to anyone's, everyone's or your satisfaction.   When you scoff at such simple reactions to the words of Srila Prabhupada - by anyone - inside or outside of his shelter - you offer more evidence as to your own conditioning and bias than you do on the condition or motivation of others.

Srila Prabhupada chuckled at the uselessness of it all. Whether they went or did not - we could no more eat the dust they purported to dig up and bring with them on their return - than we could the "nuts and bolts" he likewise insisted were equally inedible and therefore without any "real" value. This was the very bright heart of the derision and doubt he cast upon the whole venture. He did this for our benefit. He did not insert his views on the subject - calling it hoax and bluff - in order to "make up some foolish concoction to try and explain them away so that he could sell more books and videos to a gullible public!"   Respectfully   Praghosa

[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 12:41 PM, Bhaktatraveler <bhaktat...@yahoo.com> wrote:

But that is someones memory of 'Prabhupada said' I can not except it as vani on it's own. I like to hear directly from the Guru in tapes or such. I do not reject off hand either! Just caution is my way of approaching a thing I've not had conclusion from Guru on.  I might never come to a consciences for myself and am content to leave it as it is.   As for preaching to the general population, I leave that to the brahminical types, but would like to add caution as a way to move forward. In that respect the quotes provided are good I think for the general subject matter. Didn't some one previously quote directly from Prabhupada a snip-it that supported these conclusions?

Check out:

http://kuruvinda.com/MoonHoax02.shtml

…, the most orderly presentation yet about what Śrīla Prabhupāda said about the moon landings.

[Bhaktatraveler]

If I was affluent I would do just like you say!. But like I've said, Krsna has me right where He wants me. nothing but the body is left. I'm very glad to look death in the face. I did have a pop quiz(near death/left body) once and am looking forward to the real thing with courage and the Hare Krsna Mahamantra in my mind, since I'm deaf I wouldn't be able to hear audible chanting any way, LOL.   I did go to the court of Yamaraja at that time, but came to Him from behind a curtain, to His left. Almost as an intimate member of the court would. A very beautiful place, with many demigods in attendance. So big by length and breath that the entry doors were on the horizon. Though I had an impression of the souls there for judgment and the attendance of the Yamadutas coming up the center of court, they were invisible to me. Not even tinkling sounds from their jewels.  He looked down and told me I did not belong there. 'Go back' He said. He reinstated me with full memory, from the body of my father injected into the body of my mother, Fertilizing the egg, the womb, seeing Supersoul, birth(Oh baby!) and all the incidences of my life up to the point of reentering the broken body I was so quick to leave. As I describe it, memory is still ever fresh.   I'm ready to do it again! This time for real.

RCB --- On Tue, 7/28/09, Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Proof That They Went to the Moon

[Bhaktatraveler]

I'm to tired right now Im going to lay down for a couple of hrs.   Hare Krsna

RCB --- On Tue, 7/28/09, Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Proof That They Went to the Moon To: istag...@googlegroups.com

[Diane Marie Chan]

Prabhus, I could not open the website at kuruvinda.com, maybe the
server is temporarily down. But here you will find Praghosa's post
published at The Bhaktivedantas:
http://www.bhaktivedantas.com/ART_NAMHATTA/moonlanding290709.php, and
you will find a list of related articles on the right margin, taken
from Srila Prabhupada's statements re the space and moon expeditions
in the VedaBase. Also, on the topic page for Science & Technology
(http://www.bhaktivedantas.com/ART_WSP/WSPScience.php) you can find
more articles on science & technology and scientists from the
perspective of Srila Prabhupada. - Thanks, das dd

[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

It worked for me:

http://kuruvinda.com/MoonHoax01.shtml

On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 3:47 AM, Diane Marie Chan <das...@streamyx.com> wrote:

Prabhus, I could not open the website at kuruvinda.com, maybe the
server is temporarily down. But here you will find Praghosa's post
published at The Bhaktivedantas:
http://www.bhaktivedantas.com/ART_NAMHATTA/moonlanding290709.php, and
you will find a list of related articles on the right margin, taken
from Srila Prabhupada's statements re the space and moon expeditions
in the VedaBase.

My name is mentioned in a negative way in that article. Am I or someone else allowed to defend myself?

[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

It’s not that our beloved Spiritual Master, Śṛīla Prabhupāda never made any mistakes. For example:

http://z.pe/fBe

…and chemistry was supposed to be his expertise!  :-)

But this is what makes him even more dear to his loving disciples. It shows that he is also a tiny jīva soul, subject to the 4 defects. But if a tiny jīva soul can accomplish the incredibly great things that he did, then we should be encouraged that maybe we too can someday do something great for our Guru Mahārāja!

In 1969, when I first met the devotees who had been with Śṛīla Prabhupāda at 26 2nd Avenue, they would joke about some of things that Śṛīla Prabhupāda said or did which were obviously mistakes, but they loved him very, very much. Even as a karmī I could sense their strong love for him. They were willing to do anything to serve him, and they were struggling very hard to try to please him by making the Washington D.C. temple a success.

Your servant, Pratyatoṣa Dāsa

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 12:41 PM, Bhaktatraveler <bhaktat...@yahoo.com> wrote:

[Alexandre Jablonski]

"It’s not that our beloved Spiritual Master, Srila Prabhupada never made any mistakes." Pratyatosa Prabhu, Thanks for this post. I think this is a more honest way to approach it. If someone tells me: "Well, when Srila Prabhupada states that we never went to the moon, I don't accept that as being what really happened. I think Srila Prabhupada is wrong about that. I think they did go to the moon, but I think that they were made to feel uncomfortable by a giant UFO", then the speaker isn't distorting what Srila Prabhupada actually says on the matter, in order to bring it in line with their own take on the situation. I understand that the idea that NASA never went to the moon is a controversial one. Some people may see it as ridiculous and laughable, and may see anyone who propounds that idea as being ridiculous and laughable, by association. And certainly it's not fun to be on the receiving end of such ridicule. So I can understand that some people may feel uncomfortable with such statements from Srila Prabhupada. I remember the first time I read such statements about the moon, in the mid-1990s, and thought to myself: "You gotta be kidding me." So I can empathize. To my mind, the idea that they really did go to the moon, but were harassed by a giant UFO, is no less controversial and marginal. I would imagine that there are plenty of scientifically-minded people who would see the "moon UFO" theory as being every bit as loony as they would see the theory that NASA didn't go to the moon, and would think of devotees who propound that UFO idea as being equally buffoon-like, if not more so. Similarly, some other people may be put off by things like the idea that God is a blue teenager, and may think that's ridiculous. What to do? I would invite us to consider remaining open to the possibility that when Srila Prabhupada says that they did not go to the moon, he's telling the truth, and is not mistaken. This morning I read some more neat quotes from Srila Prabhupada: "So you should have depth of knowledge, otherwise you will be carried away by these rascals. We cannot be carried away by these rascals. We never so easily believed that they are going to the moon planet. You see? We have to scrutinize everything. Yes. That is brahminical qualification. A brahmana will not accept anything simply because it is said by some rascal. A sudra will accept because he has no intelligence. That is the difference between brahmana and sudra. It is not a caste system. It is classi..., guna karma vibhagasah. [Bg. 4.13], division of high qualities and actual activities according to that quality." (Room Conversation, April 1st, 1972, Sydney) "Because they are big asses and people are following them. That is the misfortune. They are simply bluffing that 'We are very great.' Just like these scientists, they simply bluffing that 'We went to the moon planet. We are doing this, doing that,' and taking large salaries, but they are asses. And people are also asses. Therefore they accept, 'Oh, he is a big man, cheating us very nicely.'" (Morning Walk, June 25th, 1975, Los Angeles) "You also hear from others. You believe that they have gone to moon planet. You have not gone. You have heard from somebody in the newspaper, that's all. That is your authority. So if you can believe in the newspaper, then I cannot believe in the sastras?" (Srimad-Bhagavatam 5.5.1 lecture, Delhi, November 28th, 1975) "Similarly, this moon planet expedition is, up to this date, it is a failure. So how can I believe that they have gone there?" (Srimad-Bhagavatam 6.1.6 lecture, Honolulu, June 8th, 1975) "You will be glad to know that just yesterday, in the Los Angeles Times there was publication of my opinion about the moon planet excursion. Such work with the local newspapers as you are nicely doing is very good. Try to agitate as far as possible our activities." (Letter to: Upendra, Los Angeles, December 29th, 1968) All the best, Alex

--- On Wed, 7/29/09, Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Proof That They Went to the Moon To: istag...@googlegroups.com

---

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[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

So you don’t think that they saw anything unusual despite the astronaut’s conversations (http://www.ufos-aliens.co.uk/cosmicphotos.html), and despite the fact that Sadāpūta Prabhu thought that it was a possibility?

What about Sadāpūta’s book, Alien Identities?

Anyway, I’m trying to keep an open mind on the subject.

Your servant, Pratyatoṣa Dāsa

[Alexandre Jablonski]

That's not what I said. I've heard the radio interview with Edgar Mitchell, as well as the recording of the follow-up call to NASA, about that interview, and I've read Sadaputa's Astronomy book and his UFO book. In one post you spoke about something like devotees making fools of themselves about the moon landings. That's what I'm speaking to. What I'm saying is that the theory that NASA didn't go to the moon is no less marginal than Edgar Mitchell's statements about seeing a UFO. I'm not saying that he didn't see one. Nor am I evaluating the validity of the various "NASA UFO" footage that people bring forward, or the claims about experiences of other astronauts. Nor am I bad-mouthing the 4 hours of Disclosure Project interviews, or their 2001 press conference. I'm just saying that to the average educated Joe, who doesn't believe in stuff like conspiracies and UFOs, the moon UFO stuff would most probably sound equally loony. In other words, one would also be "making a fool of oneself" by pushing that. So it's not a big deal either way. I've been interested in UFOs and paranormal stuff since I was a kid. So I'm a bit familiar with some of the ideas presented by various groups and individuals.. What I'm saying is that I invite us to take Srila Prabhupada seriously about this moon stuff.

All the best, Alex --- On Wed, 7/29/09, Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Proof That They Went to the Moon

---

Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers.

[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

We should never be afraid of telling the truth.

Telling people that we’ve been visited by UFOs expands their consciousness and makes them more receptive to Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Telling them that we never went to the moon, simply convinces them that we are a bunch of lunatics. Especially when we say things like the moon is further away than the sun! That would mean that the scientists don’t know where the sun and the moon actually are. If the scientists don’t know where they are, then how is it that they can predict the lunar and solar eclipses years in advance? How do you explain the phases of the moon? How do you explain a solar eclipse where the moon passes in front of the sun and blocks it out?

The fact is that the sun is 400 times bigger in diameter than the moon and the moon is 400 times as close, so they appear to be the same size!

Śrīla Prabhupāda accepts that the sun is 93,000,000 miles away, like the scientists say, but he doesn’t accept what they say about the distance to the moon? It doesn’t make any sense!

[Alexandre Jablonski]

Some people may hear about UFOs and be inspired about Krsna Consciousness. Others will hear the same thing and think we are lunatics. I assume it will vary from person to person. Depending on what head-space they are coming from. I have certainly read about and seen video footage of what I would perceive to be some very marginal UFO people, like for example, some members of "UFO religions". Now, of course, KC is not a "UFO religions", but I imagine that people could hear devotees making UFO statements and think of them as "weird UFO religious people". That doesn't mean that devotees shouldn't talk about UFOs. Talk about what inspires you.      My understanding is that when Srila Prabhupada is talking about planetary distances, he is sometimes talking about their elevation in respect to the plane of Bhu-Mandala. I have heard that there is a disucssion where this is touched on, though I have not read it. This may also be discussed in Saduputa's astronomy book, where he also discusses Srila Bhaktisddhanta's Surya-siddhanta. I read it a long time ago. I remember that Ravindra Svarupa had mentioned elevation above Bhu-Mandala in a lecture or two, back in the days when I participated somewhat in the ISKCON organization.   The following article I found interesting:   http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/world-news/25pct-brits-think-1969-moon-landing-was-hoax_100219602.html   The implication in the article is, of course, that these people are stupid, naive, and uneducated, and thus have low social value. And maybe they are stupid. The emotional impact of the article may be to make someone want to believe in the moon story as presented through mainstream channels, so as not to be marginalized, and so as not to be seen as having lower social value, being a misfit, etc. But, seen from an alternate perspective, it may show us that moon landing skepticism may be more common than we assume. Especially with the "conspiracy/scepticism" culture that the Internet seems to have given birth to.   When I first came in contact with KC, I had never heard of anyone doubting the moon landings, and I thought it was really weird. Later, I found out that there were also Muslim, Christian and non-religious groups and individuals exploring the topic. One of the things that impressed me a lot in Sadaputa's astronomy book was a part where, after discussing the moon stuff, he says something like "Ultimately we accept what Srila Prabhupada said about it".   And I thought: "Wow. Here is a guy who is obviously smart, and still he accepts what Srila Prabhupada said." I found it really interesting and touching.   Maybe he changed his mind later on on the moon stuff. I am not personally familiar with the details. But in those early days of my contact with KC, his comment drew me closer. And ultimately, Srila Prabhupada is more inspiring for me than Sadaputa.   All the best, Alex

--- On Wed, 7/29/09, Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Proof That They Went to the Moon To: aabha...@gmail.com, abhaya_m...@yahoo.com, adik...@gmail.com, anad...@yahoo.com, angin...@yahoo.com, ann.tr...@gmail.com, aryaan...@yahoo.com, basugh...@gmail.com, bhag...@hotmail.com, bhoj...@yahoo.com, bvsa...@gmail.com, compo...@yahoo.com, das...@pop.jaring.my, david...@dslextreme.com, d...@southwind.net, doro...@dslextreme.com, dway...@yahoo.com, ene...@dslextreme.com, esw...@sbcglobal.net, fallenf...@yahoo.com, fmor...@dharmacentral.com, frank-...@hotmail.com, gerisch...@yahoo.com, graem...@gmail.com, gregpr...@yahoo.com, gururagh...@yahoo.com, guruva...@yahoo.com, hms...@yahoo.com, in...@farmeducation.org, istag...@googlegroups.com, james...@email.com, jay....@gmail.com, jgc...@yahoo.com, jiva...@yahoo.com, kanhaiya...@hotmail.com, krishna...@yahoo.com, krsna...@yahoo.com, lak...@webtv.net, law...@juno.com, madh...@yahoo.com, mahar...@hotmail.com, mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk, meiz...@yahoo.com, messenger...@yahoo.com, mgr...@sbcglobal.net, mitche...@netzero.net, mrs...@verizon.net, mystiq...@yahoo.com, newlife...@yahoo.com, ne...@srilaprabhupada.com, nihar_...@yahoo.com, nimai...@gmail.com, orland...@gmail.com, pg1...@netzero.com, raghu...@rogers.com, rainbo...@yahoo.com, ram...@aol.com, ramar...@yahoo.com, ramr...@aol.com, remote....@gmail.com, rosemar...@netzero.com, royalt...@yahoo.com, royric...@yahoo.com, sansk...@gmail.com, she_ra_ven...@yahoo.com, shutup...@hotmail.com, stevie...@gmail.com, sunand...@hotmail.com, taru...@yahoo.com, trini...@aol.com, urdh...@aol.com, vibh...@yahoo.com, vidu...@hotmail.com, visho...@yahoo.com, visv...@hotmail.com, william...@jagannatha.com, windfl...@yahoo.com, w...@aol.com, wooro...@aol.com, wzo...@yahoo.com, zon...@hotmail.com, pedro...@gmail.com

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[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

Yes. That’s it exactly. The moon is further away from the plain of Bhū-maṇḍala (the ecliptic) than the sun. That’s what it says in the 5th Canto, and the scientists agree 100%, so there is actually no conflict. It’s just that the great sages could see that the ecliptic has a subtle physical form, which the scientists can’t detect.

Like I said before, Sadāpūta depended upon GBC funding, so he had to be a little careful what he said, and especially what he published.

Your servant, Pratyatoṣa Dāsa

[Alexandre Jablonski]

One way to see it is that the moon has has a subtle aspect, and even if you land there, you won't experience that higher subtle aspect, unless you're qualified. Another way to look at it is to say that they simply did not land there, at all. And that it was a hoax. For myself, I wouldn't close myself to this second possible interpretation, since there are place where Srila Prabhupada seems to just flat out say that they did not go there, and that they faked it. I find that possibility interesting.   Anyway, I would encourage people to explore the topic to their satisfaction, in whatever way their conscience leads them to, and to at least consider remaining open to the possibility of the second interpretation. I've seen a number of Jarrah White's Apollo-scepticism vids, and I certianly did not experience him as an irrational lunatic. I liked the vids. I've also seen other stuff on the Apollo hoax topic that I found thought-provoking.

All the best, Alex  --- On Wed, 7/29/09, Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Proof That They Went to the Moon To: aabha...@gmail.com, abhaya_m...@yahoo.com, adik...@gmail.com, anad...@yahoo.com, angin...@yahoo.com, ann.tr...@gmail.com, aryaan...@yahoo.com, basugh...@gmail.com, bhag...@hotmail.com, bhoj...@yahoo.com, bvsa...@gmail.com, compo...@yahoo.com, das...@pop.jaring.my, david...@dslextreme.com, d...@southwind.net, doro...@dslextreme.com, dway...@yahoo.com, ene...@dslextreme.com, esw...@sbcglobal.net, fallenf...@yahoo.com, fmor...@dharmacentral.com, frank-...@hotmail.com, gerisch...@yahoo.com, graem...@gmail.com, gregpr...@yahoo.com, gururagh...@yahoo.com, guruva...@yahoo.com, hms...@yahoo.com, in...@farmeducation.org, istag...@googlegroups.com, james...@email.com, jay....@gmail.com, jgc...@yahoo.com, jiva...@yahoo.com, kanhaiya...@hotmail.com, krishna...@yahoo.com, krsna...@yahoo.com, lak...@webtv.net, law...@juno.com, madh...@yahoo.com, mahar...@hotmail.com, mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk, meiz...@yahoo.com, messenger...@yahoo.com, mgr...@sbcglobal.net, mitche...@netzero.net, mrs...@verizon.net, mystiq...@yahoo.com, newlife...@yahoo.com, ne...@srilaprabhupada.com, nihar_...@yahoo.com, nimai...@gmail.com, orland...@gmail.com, pg1...@netzero.com, raghu...@rogers.com, rainbo...@yahoo.com, ram...@aol.com, ramar...@yahoo.com, ramr...@aol.com, remote....@gmail.com, rosemar...@netzero.com, royalt...@yahoo.com, royric...@yahoo.com, sansk...@gmail.com, she_ra_ven...@yahoo.com, shutup...@hotmail.com, stevie...@gmail.com, sunand...@hotmail.com, taru...@yahoo.com, trini...@aol.com, urdh...@aol.com, vibh...@yahoo.com, vidu...@hotmail.com, visho...@yahoo.com, visv...@hotmail.com, william...@jagannatha.com, windfl...@yahoo.com, w...@aol.com, wooro...@aol.com, wzo...@yahoo.com, zon...@hotmail.com, pedro...@gmail.com

Get the name you've always wanted ! @ymail.com or @rocketmail.com.

[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

The way I look at it, even when Śrīla Prabhupāda seems to make a mistake such as “Women’s brains never weigh more than 34 or 36 ounces!” or “We can’t live for more than 3 seconds without air!” or “You can make wine by mixing molasses and sulfuric acid!” he is completely under Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa’s direct control. Kṛṣṇa is very tricky. Maybe the purpose is to get rid of the not-so-sincere. Many potential devotees have left because of his statements about the moon being further away than the sun, or that we never went to the moon. Perhaps they just weren’t sincere enough to receive the causeless mercy of the pure devotee at that particular time, so Kṛṣṇa purposely gave them an excuse to find some fault and leave.

Even Prabhupāda’s disciples who still think that the moon landing was a hoax are part of Kṛṣṇa’s divine plan, so the “not-so-sincere filter” is still in effect.

If you watch the movie The Disk (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0205873/), you will see a graphic demonstration of how impossible it would have been to fake the moon landings.

Also, don’t be fooled by so-called older devotees who try to try to make themselves seem spiritually advanced by saying, “I just accept whatever Prabhupāda says. If he says that the moon is further away than the sun then I just accept it.” They might be just putting on a show. If they were actually spiritually advanced, then wouldn’t they have some respect for godbrothers who are better educated?

Your servant, Pratyatoṣa Dāsa

[Alexandre Jablonski]

Well, from what I have seen, there is evidence that the moon landings could have been a hoax. My father is an engineer, and I watched one of the moon hoax documentaries with him. He told me that his initial reaction was that it was silly, but as he kept watching it, and taking into consideration some things that he had not previously considered, it really stayed with him. A few things in the documentary, like for example the flag moving as though by wind, made an impression on him.   My post-secondary educational background is in science, and I've taught science in middle school. I've only taken one University astronomy course, but I got an A in it. I was actually reading Sadaputa's astronomy book while I was taking the course. On a related note, I also got an A in my evolution course. In that course, they certainly put forward a huge amount of information that they felt supported evolution as the source of life on Earth, and much of it does seem to be internally consistent, until you question certain unstated assumptions. But, it must be said, that it is an internally consistent system, and it does take into consideration certain real data. That doesn't mean it's the correct interpretation of the data. But evolution is a whole topic, though it is related.   I now work in a University, since I stopped teaching. It's interesting to see life behind the scenes here. It seems that science, like Sadaputa talks about, does seem to be influenced by a knowledge filter. I think this may well come into play in the whole moon thing as well.   Does seriously considering that the moon landings may have been a hoax, and seriously considering that Srila Prabhupada may be telling the truth on tha topic, make me less sincere? Ok, so be it. I can live with that. I'm less sincere. But I really think Srila Prabhupada may be on to something with this whole moon thing, and I would invite people to consider not dismissing his statements on the topic out of hand.   You mentioned the vested interest of people who put forward sceptical ideas about the Apollo missions, that many of them are selling some product. But let's also take into consideration that those "debunking" that research may also have their own vested interests. There are many people who have made careers, which are in one way or another connected with the mainstream narrative about the Apollo missions.     There is a quote from Srila Prabhupada that I heard about, though have not located. I did a few searches today, but did not find it yet, assuming that the quote is true. It was something like "If you can doubt one thing, you can doubt the whole thing."   Now I'm not saying that to bully people into accepting Srila Prabhupada's statements, but as something to take into consideration. For example, why should I believe that God is a Person? It would be more consistent with spiritual-scientific books like "The Dancing Wu-Li Masters", "The Tao of Physics" and "Turbulent Mirror" to see "God" as energy, rather than as an energy source.    Why should I believe that God wears a peacock feather in his hair and plays a flute? Why not a baseball cap and an electric guitar? Why heard cows? Why not goats?   Why should I believe in demigods? It would make more sense to see natural phenomena as manifestations of absolute chance.   Why should I believe that God likes the Tulsi plant? It's just a plant after all. Isn't it?   When I look at what drew me to KC, a large part of it was Srila Prabhupada, and his conviction. I think I remember some quote from Hayagriva where he said that Srila Prabhupada's conviction was contagious. I gradually developped more trust in the texts and tradition that he is representing, because he himself made such a strong impression on me   I was first drawn in by the Hare Krsna mantra, and it's effect on my consciousness. At first I was tempted to see its effects as the sort of things that people usually associate with various types of mediation: getting calmer, releasing serotonin in the brain, etc.   But this was more intense than anything I had previously encountered. It was so intense, that I began to take a bit more seriously the Indian gentleman who brought it here. I would think that if he's right about this, what else might he be right about?   I would encourage people to face and explore their doubts, whatever they may be, and not simply suppress them. It may be that in exploring them fully, they may find that Srila Prabhupada is correct in what he is saying. It may be that in fully exploring them, they come to a different conclusion than the one I come to. So be it.   I understand that you seem to be drawing a strong conclusion on this moon thing. If anything, I tend to lean to the posibility that the whole Apollo thing is a scam, while remaining open to alternate explations. My experience has shown me that I tend to underestimate Srila Prabhupada. Some poet from Argentina had some quote to the effect that "When an ass looks into a book, don't expect an angel to look out." So I understand that I see Srila Prabhupada from my own limited perspective, and I tend to project my own failings onto him. At least that's my take on it.   I don't mind if people think I'm dumb. After some years of contact with KC, and with people who are aspiring to devotees, like myself, I honestly care less and less what a bunch of Hare Krsnas think of me. But for anyone who is open to the possibility that Srila Prabhupada was right about the moon thing, I would encourage them to explore that topic. And I certainly see my own apreciation for Srila Prabhupada increase as I face the topic, and other similarly controversial topics, head on.   Opinons will vary, and people will find different ways to reconcile for themselves what they see as contradictory or objectionable statements in Srila Prabhupada's teachings. I would encourage those who are interested in the topic to not take my word for it, or Pratyatosa's word for it, but to investigate it until they feel satisfied and clear on the topic.   Maybe, just maybe, Srila Prabhupada is not just a silly old misinformed man, who over and over makes bold but erroneous statements, in his goofy but lovable way, but is instead a person who perceives reality clearly. It's one possibility to consider.     Anyway, all the best,

Alex       --- On Wed, 7/29/09, Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Proof That They Went to the Moon To: aabha...@gmail.com, abhaya_m...@yahoo.com, adik...@gmail.com, anad...@yahoo.com, angin...@yahoo.com, ann.tr...@gmail.com, aryaan...@yahoo.com, basugh...@gmail.com, bhag...@hotmail.com, bhoj...@yahoo.com, bvsa...@gmail.com, compo...@yahoo.com, das...@pop.jaring.my, david...@dslextreme.com, d...@southwind.net, doro...@dslextreme.com, dway...@yahoo.com, ene...@dslextreme.com, esw...@sbcglobal.net, fallenf...@yahoo.com, fmor...@dharmacentral.com, frank-...@hotmail.com, gerisch...@yahoo.com, graem...@gmail.com, gregpr...@yahoo.com, gururagh...@yahoo.com, guruva...@yahoo.com, hms...@yahoo.com, in...@farmeducation.org, istag...@googlegroups.com, james...@email.com, jay....@gmail.com, jgc...@yahoo.com, jiva...@yahoo.com, kanhaiya...@hotmail.com, krishna...@yahoo.com, krsna...@yahoo.com, lak...@webtv.net, law...@juno.com, madh...@yahoo.com, mahar...@hotmail.com, mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk, meiz...@yahoo.com, messenger...@yahoo.com, mgr...@sbcglobal.net, mitche...@netzero.net, mrs...@verizon.net, mystiq...@yahoo.com, newlife...@yahoo.com, ne...@srilaprabhupada.com, nihar_...@yahoo.com, nimai...@gmail.com, orland...@gmail.com, pg1...@netzero.com, raghu...@rogers.com, rainbo...@yahoo.com, ram...@aol.com, ramar...@yahoo.com, ramr...@aol.com, remote....@gmail.com, rosemar...@netzero.com, royalt...@yahoo.com, royric...@yahoo.com, sansk...@gmail.com, she_ra_ven...@yahoo.com, shutup...@hotmail.com, stevie...@gmail.com, sunand...@hotmail.com, taru...@yahoo.com, trini...@aol.com, urdh...@aol.com, vibh...@yahoo.com, vidu...@hotmail.com, visho...@yahoo.com, visv...@hotmail.com, william...@jagannatha.com, windfl...@yahoo.com, w...@aol.com, wooro...@aol.com, wzo...@yahoo.com, zon...@hotmail.com, pedro...@gmail.com

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[Bhaktatraveler]

Thank you Alex   For such a nicely expressed realization on the matter. I could not have said it better and agree with your method/conclusions of/in understanding Prabhupada.   I would like to ask anyone, why it is taking from June till October to get to the moon with this 'bomb' their going to drop on it?? Are they just on a joy ride? Is the pay load(i think 5k lb's or KG's) more than it was for the moon landings? Are we going to see it from earth? and if not, why? I think seeing the impact would gives us some conclusive direction to go with understanding the 5th canto. Especially if it could be seen and photo graphed autonomously world wide and not from just NASA or government controlled sources.   Hare Krsna   RCB --- On Wed, 7/29/09, Alexandre Jablonski <alexandre...@yahoo.ca> wrote:

[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

Dear Prabhus, Hare Kṛṣṇa! Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Śṛīla Prabhupāda!

Even though the Apollo moon missions involved thousands of NASA employees, in 40 years, even on their deathbeds, not one former NASA employee has come forward to say that there was any kind of moon landing hoax. I think that it’s high time that we finally admit that we’ve been barking up the wrong tree for all these years!

Your servant, Pratyatoṣa Dāsa

[Alexandre Jablonski]

From what I've read, Bill Kaysing worked for Rocketdyne, which was at the time, and is still today, a company that is a contractor for NASA projects.

--- On Thu, 7/30/09, Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Proof That They Went to the Moon To: aabha...@gmail.com, abhaya_m...@yahoo.com, adik...@gmail.com, anad...@yahoo.com, angin...@yahoo.com, ann.tr...@gmail.com, aryaan...@yahoo.com, basugh...@gmail.com, bhag...@hotmail.com, bhoj...@yahoo.com, bvsa...@gmail.com, compo...@yahoo.com, das...@pop.jaring.my, david...@dslextreme.com, d...@southwind.net, doro...@dslextreme.com, dway...@yahoo.com, ene...@dslextreme.com, esw...@sbcglobal.net, fallenf...@yahoo.com, fmor...@dharmacentral.com, frank-...@hotmail.com, gerisch...@yahoo.com, graem...@gmail.com, gregpr...@yahoo.com, gururagh...@yahoo.com, guruva...@yahoo.com, hms...@yahoo.com, in...@farmeducation.org, istag...@googlegroups.com, james...@email.com, jay....@gmail.com, jgc...@yahoo.com, jiva...@yahoo.com, kanhaiya...@hotmail.com, krishna...@yahoo.com, krsna...@yahoo.com, lak...@webtv.net, law...@juno.com, madh...@yahoo.com, mahar...@hotmail.com, mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk, meiz...@yahoo.com, messenger...@yahoo.com, mgr...@sbcglobal.net, mitche...@netzero.net, mrs...@verizon.net, mystiq...@yahoo.com, newlife...@yahoo.com, ne...@srilaprabhupada.com, nihar_...@yahoo.com, nimai...@gmail.com, orland...@gmail.com, pg1...@netzero.com, raghu...@rogers.com, rainbo...@yahoo.com, ram...@aol.com, ramar...@yahoo.com, ramr...@aol.com, remote....@gmail.com, rosemar...@netzero.com, royalt...@yahoo.com, royric...@yahoo.com, sansk...@gmail.com, she_ra_ven...@yahoo.com, shutup...@hotmail.com, stevie...@gmail.com, sunand...@hotmail.com, taru...@yahoo.com, trini...@aol.com, urdh...@aol.com, vibh...@yahoo.com, vidu...@hotmail.com, visho...@yahoo.com, visv...@hotmail.com, william...@jagannatha.com, windfl...@yahoo.com, w...@aol.com, wooro...@aol.com, wzo...@yahoo.com, zon...@hotmail.com, pedro...@gmail.com

---

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[Mahesh Raja]

Pratyatosa Prabhu All Glories to Srila Prabhupada! Please accept my humble obeisances Hare Krsna!

>Even though the Apollo moon missions involved >thousands of NASA employees, in 40 years, even on >their deathbeds, not one former NASA employee has >come forward to say that there was any kind of moon >landing hoax

Common sense: BILLIONS of dollars were squandered - the NASA employees are STILL on PENSION/paypacket roll. Do you think that they are that stupid to give up life of luxury on the Government paypacket just to tell the truth?   Look at the ISKCON bogus guru camp they are pretending to be Mahabhagavat whilst being on payroll. EVERYONE knows this now. To these type of CON men It is all about protecting their Payroll.   Wake-up!  We follow Srila Prabhupada as GURU not some bunch of lunatics.  Srila Prabhupada says they have NOT been to Moon. End of topic. We accept Srila Prabhupada's words as FINAL.   ys mahesh

--- On Thu, 30/7/09, Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Proof That They Went to the Moon

To: aabha...@gmail.com, abhaya_m...@yahoo.com, adik...@gmail.com, anad...@yahoo.com, angin...@yahoo.com, ann.tr...@gmail.com, aryaan...@yahoo.com, basugh...@gmail.com, bhag...@hotmail.com, bhoj...@yahoo.com, bvsa...@gmail.com, compo...@yahoo.com, das...@pop.jaring.my, david...@dslextreme.com, d...@southwind.net, doro...@dslextreme.com, dway...@yahoo.com, ene...@dslextreme.com, esw...@sbcglobal.net, fallenf...@yahoo.com, fmor...@dharmacentral.com, frank-...@hotmail.com, gerischaub2003@yahoo..com, graem...@gmail.com, gregpr...@yahoo.com, gururagh...@yahoo.com, guruva...@yahoo.com, hms...@yahoo.com, in...@farmeducation.org, istag...@googlegroups.com, james...@email.com, jay....@gmail.com, jgc...@yahoo.com, jiva...@yahoo.com, kanhaiya...@hotmail.com, krishna...@yahoo.com, krsna...@yahoo.com, lak...@webtv.net, law...@juno.com, madh...@yahoo.com, mahar...@hotmail.com, mahesh...@yahoo.co..uk, meiz...@yahoo.com, messenger...@yahoo.com, mgr...@sbcglobal.net, mitche...@netzero.net, mrs...@verizon.net, mystiq...@yahoo.com, newlife...@yahoo.com, ne...@srilaprabhupada.com, nihar_...@yahoo.com, nimai...@gmail.com, orland...@gmail.com, pg1...@netzero.com, raghu...@rogers.com, rainbo...@yahoo.com, ram...@aol.com, ramar...@yahoo.com, ramr...@aol.com, remote....@gmail.com, rosemar...@netzero.com, royalt...@yahoo.com, royric...@yahoo.com, sansk...@gmail.com, she_ra_ven...@yahoo.com, shutup...@hotmail.com, stevie...@gmail.com, sunand...@hotmail.com, taru...@yahoo.com, trini...@aol.com, urdh...@aol.com, vibh...@yahoo.com, vidu...@hotmail.com, visho...@yahoo.com, visv...@hotmail.com, william...@jagannatha.com, windfl...@yahoo.com, w...@aol.com, wooro...@aol.com, wzo...@yahoo.com, zon...@hotmail.com, pedro...@gmail.com Date: Thursday, 30 July, 2009, 12:36 PM

Dear Prabhus, Hare Kṛṣṇa! Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Śṛīla Prabhupāda! Even though the Apollo moon missions involved thousands of NASA employees, in 40 years, even on their deathbeds, not one former NASA employee has come forward to say that there was any kind of moon landing hoax. I think that it’s high time that we finally admit that we’ve been barking up the wrong tree for all these years! Your servant, Pratyatoṣa Dāsa

On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 12:44 PM, Alexandre Jablonski <alexandre...@yahoo.ca> wrote:

Well, from what I have seen, there is evidence that the moon landings could have been a hoax. My father is an engineer, and I watched one of the moon hoax documentaries with him. He told me that his initial reaction was that it was silly, but as he kept watching it, and taking into consideration some things that he had not previously considered, it really stayed with him. A few things in the documentary, like for example the flag moving as though by wind, made an impression on him.   My post-secondary educational background is in science, and I've taught science in middle school. I've only taken one University astronomy course, but I got an A in it. I was actually reading Sadaputa's astronomy book while I was taking the course. On a related note, I also got an A in my evolution course. In that course, they certainly put forward a huge amount of information that they felt supported evolution as the source of life on Earth, and much of it does seem to be internally consistent, until you question certain unstated assumptions. But, it must be said, that it is an internally consistent system, and it does take into consideration certain real data. That doesn't mean it's the correct interpretation of the data. But evolution is a whole topic, though it is related.   I now work in a University, since I stopped teaching. It's interesting to see life behind the scenes here. It seems that science, like Sadaputa talks about, does seem to be influenced by a knowledge filter. I think this may well come into play in the whole moon thing as well.

Does seriously considering that the moon landings may have been a hoax, and seriously considering that Srila Prabhupada may be telling the truth on tha topic, make me less sincere? Ok, so be it. I can live with that.. I'm less sincere. But I really think Srila Prabhupada may be on to something with this whole moon thing, and I would invite people to consider not dismissing his statements on the topic out of hand.   You mentioned the vested interest of people who put forward sceptical ideas about the Apollo missions, that many of them are selling some product.. But let's also take into consideration that those "debunking" that research may also have their own vested interests. There are many people who have made careers, which are in one way or another connected with the mainstream narrative about the Apollo missions.

[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

Right, Mahesh Prabhu. And Śrīla Prabhupāda also says:

1. “Women’s brains never weigh more than 34 or 36 ounces!”

2. “We can’t live for more than 3 seconds without air!”

3. “You can make wine by mixing molasses and sulfuric acid!”

How do you explain that?

Śrīla Prabhupāda didn’t want blind followers. Crooks, rascals, fools, and blind followers are the kind of disciples that the bogus ISKCON gurus get.

Your servant, Pratyatoṣa Dāsa

[Bhaktatraveler]

Could you quote context for # 2 + 3? #1 I was there for one time and personally see no problem with this brain thing.    I expect that your way of looking at this is to be scientific and conclusive in a mundane way but not taking into consideration that different activities very well could predisposed different results on the physical body. It could mean that an aryan male(4 varnas) has come to a higher standard of existence and development so as to have a more dense brain as opposed to a sub-human that has 0 capacity to think or live a life that would develop finer/denser tissue. I'm just looking for how Prabhupada is right.   Is anyone taking devotee brains(male or female) and weighting them? Is any one taking ANY brains and weighting them? Then again we are at the mercy of antagonist at best with the demoniac scientist. I go with Prabhupada on this!   I would like to see where the other statements come from though.   Hare Krsna   RCB

--- On Thu, 7/30/09, Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Proof That They Went to the Moon

[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 9:57 AM, Bhaktatraveler <bhaktat...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Could you quote context for # 2 + 3? #1 I was there for one time and personally see no problem with this brain thing.

Google claims to have indexed more than 1,000,000,000 (1 trillion) web pages! So, out of 1 trillion web pages the following links are Google searches which not only reveal what Śrīla Prabhupāda said but they would also reveal whether or not anyone else ever made any similar statements.

1. “Women’s brains never weigh more than 34 or 36 ounces!” (http://z.pe/fQH & http://z.pe/fSS)

^{*The average woman’s brain weighs about 43 ounces as compared to about 48 for a man’s brain. The world’s record brain weight, 74 ounces, was that of Turgeniev, Russian writer. There are records of a few 60-ounce brains, and quite a few in the 50’s (including Thackeray, Daniel Webster, Napoleon). But more significant than brain weight are the convolutions of the brain — more convolutions mean more surface area, and the brain thinks on its surface.}
(http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,720749,00.html)

2. “We can’t live for more than 3 seconds without air!” (http://z.pe/fSQ)

3. “You can make wine by mixing molasses and sulfuric acid!” (http://z.pe/fBe)

Your servant, Pratyatoṣa Dāsa

[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

Sorry Prabhus, 1,000,000,000,000 is 1 trillion, not 1,000,000,000.

[Bhaktatraveler]

This is what I found on the wine thing......and at first read see nothing erroneous with it. Even in the second quote Prabhupada says "So far I know" And is this simple process for making "alcohol" workable? Not that it is necessarily drinkable, but that it has alcohol content.     Conversation 11/21/75 Prabhupāda: Molasses. Ferment molasses with sulphuric acid and then distill. It is wine, liquor. People are producing unnecessary quantity of sugarcane; therefore the drinking habit is increasing. Because from sugar the molasses is the by-product, so they have to use. They are finding out what is next industry, and the next industry is liquor, wine. So when they produce more wine, then they must sell, and the people must drink. This is going on, one after another. And in Hawaii, Mauritius and in so many other places we see they have produced unnecessary quantity of sugarcane. And then molasses... (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. And then wine, and they must be sold.       Lecture 4/14/73  If you actually love God, Kṛṣṇa, then you can remember Him at any time, always, always. There is no difficulty. Here Kuntīdevī describes paṅkaja, with reference to lotus flower. And Kṛṣṇa describes Himself in the Bhagavad-gītā, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya: [Bg. 7.8] "I am the taste of the liquid." So Kṛṣṇa can be remembered by tasting water. Even those who are drinking... If he thinks that "This taste of drinking is Kṛṣṇa," he will one day come out a great saintly person. Such a nice thing, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, if you have cultivate Kṛṣṇa consciousness, if you follow the description given by the śāstras. So I can request that even the drunkards that "You can become Kṛṣṇa conscious." The drunkard, what to speak of others? Because Kṛṣṇa says, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya: "I am the taste of the liquid." Generally, liquid, water is taken. So liquor is also liquid. Liquor is bad because it creates intoxication. Otherwise, it is made from sugar, molasses, molasses with sulphuric acid fermented, so far I know. We were in the chemical line. Molasses fermented with sulphuric acid and then distilled. That is called spirit, or liquor. So thing is, nothing is bad, but because if a thing creates bad effects, then it is bad. Then it is bad. So I shall request even the drunkards... In your country, there are many drunkards. There is no scarcity. So if you'll kindly remember when drinking wine that this nice taste of drinking is Kṛṣṇa... Just begin with it. You'll come out one day a saintly person, Kṛṣṇa conscious. It's so nice, practical.    On the air thing.....   Lecture 4/3/72    when we are within the womb of our mother, it is very precarious condition. Any medical man knows. We have to live there in this way, in a packed up bag, practically without any air. Airtight condition. Just imagine. Now just at the present moment if you are put into the airtight condition, you will die within three minutes or three seconds. The medical opinion is that. But in the womb of our mother we have to live for clear ten months or more than that in that airtight, packed-up condition. Just imagine how much troublesome condition was there. That is practical. We may have forgotten.(END)   I personally have no problem with this above. No mistakes.   Lecture 4/7/75   Māyā means to give sufficient punishment to the living entities who have forgotten Kṛṣṇa and wants to enjoy material life independently. They are called conditioned soul. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate [Bg. 8.19]. This conditioned life means we accept one type of body, we suffer sufficiently. It is simply suffering. There is no enjoyment. Where is enjoyment? To remain in the womb of the mother for ten months, is that enjoyment? Packed up in airtight bag? Just imagine, if you were put in airtight bag at the present moment, within three seconds you will die. You cannot live without air, even for three seconds. This is our position. And by māyā's arrangement, we have to remain at least for ten months within the airtight bag, embryo, within the abdomen of our mother. So if we cannot live for even three seconds without air, how it was possible to remain in that airtight bag for ten months? That is also Kṛṣṇa's mercy, to allow us to develop the body, so that coming out of the mother's womb we can live independently. To make us strong in the body. But the māyā is so strong that even within that position, the mother is also killing the child. This is Kali-yuga.(END)   Looks like a hyperbolic statement for effect and not siddhanta. I have no problem with this either!   Hare Krsna   Raja Caturbahu das Bhakti   --- On Thu, 7/30/09, Bhaktatraveler <bhaktat...@yahoo.com> wrote:

[Bhaktatraveler]

A NWO rag in the form of Time magazine is proff?   I still stick with Srila Prabhupada!

RCB --- On Thu, 7/30/09, Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Proof That They Went to the Moon

[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 11:06 AM, Bhaktatraveler <bhaktat...@yahoo.com> wrote:

This is what I found on the wine thing......and at first read see nothing erroneous with it. Even in the second quote Prabhupada says "So far I know" And is this simple process for making "alcohol" workable? Not that it is necessarily drinkable, but that it has alcohol content.

Absolutely not! Fermentation is caused by yeast. It has nothing to do with sulphuric acid. I used to make my own wine when I was in college, and I also got straight A’s in college chemistry.

[Alexandre Jablonski]

I read the following information on two website linked on a recent KRSNAblog post. "Industrial cane molasses contains B Vitamins and biotin, both helpful in the fermentation process to produce alcohol for use in alcohol drinks, cosmetics and solvents. "Beet molasses due to its buffering capacity requires a higher content of sulphuric acid to reduce pH to optimum fermentation levels than when cane molasses forms the energy source." Source:  http://www.premiermolasses.ie/uses.htm "Sugar-cane molasses is fermented and distilled to make rum. The residue after distillation has a very high content of ash, especially calcium sulphate. If the residue is to be used as animal feed, the calcium must be removed from the molasses prior to fermentation by means of the Reich process. The molasses are diluted with water to 40 Brix and heated to 80 C. Sulphuric acid is added to pH 4, and after one hour the solution is centrifuged, thereby removing about 80% of the calcium." Source: http://www.fao.org/ag/aga/agap/frg/afris/Data/466.HTM

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[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

Bhakta Alex Prabhu, please reply to all of the receivers, not just istag...@googlegroups.com.

On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 11:30 AM, Alexandre Jablonski <alexandre...@yahoo.ca> wrote:

I read the following information on two website linked on a recent KRSNAblog post. "Industrial cane molasses contains B Vitamins and biotin, both helpful in the fermentation process to produce alcohol for use in alcohol drinks, cosmetics and solvents.

Says nothing about sulphuric acid.

"Beet molasses due to its buffering capacity requires a higher content of sulphuric acid to reduce pH to optimum fermentation levels than when cane molasses forms the energy source." Source:  http://www.premiermolasses.ie/uses.htm

This is for producing “Industrial Alcohol,” not wine.

"Sugar-cane molasses is fermented and distilled to make rum. The residue after distillation has a very high content of ash, especially calcium sulphate. If the residue is to be used as animal feed, the calcium must be removed from the molasses prior to fermentation by means of the Reich process. The molasses are diluted with water to 40 Brix and heated to 80 C. Sulphuric acid is added to pH 4, and after one hour the solution is centrifuged, thereby removing about 80% of the calcium."

Source: http://www.fao.org/ag/aga/agap/frg/afris/Data/466.HTM

The sulphuric acid is added after the rum is produced. Also, this indicates that from molasses we get rum, not wine.

[Alexandre Jablonski]

"Beet molasses due to its buffering capacity requires a higher content of sulphuric acid to reduce pH to optimum fermentation levels than when cane molasses forms the energy source."

The above statement does say something about sulphuric acid. The sentence that I included before it, I included for context.

--- On Thu, 7/30/09, Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Proof That They Went to the Moon

[Bhaktatraveler]

OK, I belive you. I'm still good with it because Prabhupada also says "so far I know" so it isn't a big deal 'so far I know'   RCB

--- On Thu, 7/30/09, Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Proof That They Went to the Moon

To: istag...@googlegroups.com Cc: "Mahesh Raja" <mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk>, aabha...@gmail.com, abhaya_m...@yahoo.com, adik...@gmail.com, anad...@yahoo.com, angin...@yahoo.com, ann.tr...@gmail.com, aryaan...@yahoo.com, basugh...@gmail.com, bhag...@hotmail.com, bhoj...@yahoo.com, bvsa...@gmail.com, compo...@yahoo.com, das...@pop.jaring.my, david...@dslextreme.com, d...@southwind.net, doro...@dslextreme.com, dway...@yahoo.com, ene...@dslextreme.com, esw...@sbcglobal.net, fallenf...@yahoo.com, fmor...@dharmacentral.com, frank-...@hotmail.com, gerisch...@yahoo.com, graem...@gmail.com, gregpr...@yahoo.com, gururagh...@yahoo.com, guruva...@yahoo.com, hms...@yahoo.com, in...@farmeducation.org, james...@email.com, jay....@gmail.com, jgc...@yahoo.com, jiva...@yahoo.com, kanhaiya...@hotmail.com, krishna...@yahoo.com, krsna...@yahoo.com, lak...@webtv.net, law...@juno.com, madh...@yahoo.com, mahar...@hotmail.com, meiz...@yahoo.com, messenger...@yahoo.com, mgr...@sbcglobal.net, mitche...@netzero.net, mrs...@verizon.net, mystiq...@yahoo.com, newlife...@yahoo.com, ne...@srilaprabhupada.com, nihar_...@yahoo.com, nimai...@gmail.com, orland...@gmail.com, pg1...@netzero.com, raghu...@rogers.com, rainbo...@yahoo.com, ram...@aol.com, ramar...@yahoo.com, ramr...@aol.com, remote....@gmail.com, rosemar...@netzero.com, royalt...@yahoo.com, royric...@yahoo.com, sansk...@gmail.com, she_ra_ven...@yahoo.com, shutup...@hotmail.com, stevie...@gmail.com, sunand...@hotmail.com, taru...@yahoo.com, trini...@aol.com, urdh...@aol.com, vibh...@yahoo.com, vidu...@hotmail.com, visho...@yahoo.com, visv...@hotmail.com, william...@jagannatha.com, windfl...@yahoo.com, w...@aol.com, wooro...@aol.com, wzo...@yahoo.com, zon...@hotmail.com, pedro...@gmail.com Date: Thursday, July 30, 2009, 11:12 AM

On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 11:06 AM, Bhaktatraveler <bhaktat...@yahoo.com> wrote:

This is what I found on the wine thing......and at first read see nothing erroneous with it. Even in the second quote Prabhupada says "So far I know" And is this simple process for making "alcohol" workable? Not that it is necessarily drinkable, but that it has alcohol content.

[Bhaktatraveler]

WOW! Alex dude! great work!   Prabhupada right again!!!!   RCB

--- On Thu, 7/30/09, Alexandre Jablonski <alexandre...@yahoo.ca> wrote:

From: Alexandre Jablonski <alexandre...@yahoo.ca> Subject: Re: Proof That They Went to the Moon To: istag...@googlegroups.com

Date: Thursday, July 30, 2009, 11:30 AM

I read the following information on two website linked on a recent KRSNAblog post.

"Industrial cane molasses contains B Vitamins and biotin, both helpful in the fermentation process to produce alcohol for use in alcohol drinks, cosmetics and solvents.

"Beet molasses due to its buffering capacity requires a higher content of sulphuric acid to reduce pH to optimum fermentation levels than when cane molasses forms the energy source." Source:  http://www.premiermolasses.ie/uses.htm "Sugar-cane molasses is fermented and distilled to make rum. The residue after distillation has a very high content of ash, especially calcium sulphate. If the residue is to be used as animal feed, the calcium must be removed from the molasses prior to fermentation by means of the Reich process. The molasses are diluted with water to 40 Brix and heated to 80 C. Sulphuric acid is added to pH 4, and after one hour the solution is centrifuged, thereby removing about 80% of the calcium." Source: http://www.fao.org/ag/aga/agap/frg/afris/Data/466.HTM

--- On Thu, 7/30/09, Bhaktatraveler <bhaktat...@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Bhaktatraveler <bhaktat...@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Proof That They Went to the Moon

To: "Mahesh Raja" <mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk>, istag...@googlegroups.com

Cc: aabha...@gmail.com, abhaya_m...@yahoo.com, adik...@gmail.com, anad...@yahoo.com, angin...@yahoo.com, ann.tr...@gmail.com, aryaan...@yahoo.com, basugh...@gmail.com, bhag...@hotmail.com, bhoj...@yahoo.com, bvsa...@gmail.com, compo...@yahoo.com, das...@pop.jaring.my, david...@dslextreme.com, d...@southwind.net, doro...@dslextreme.com, dway...@yahoo.com, ene...@dslextreme.com, esw...@sbcglobal.net, fallenf...@yahoo.com, fmor...@dharmacentral.com, frank-...@hotmail.com, gerisch...@yahoo.com, graem...@gmail.com, gregpr...@yahoo.com, gururagh...@yahoo.com, guruva...@yahoo.com, hms...@yahoo.com, in...@farmeducation.org, istag...@googlegroups.com, james...@email.com, jay....@gmail.com, jgc...@yahoo.com, jiva...@yahoo.com, kanhaiya...@hotmail.com, krishna...@yahoo.com, krsna...@yahoo.com, lak...@webtv.net, law...@juno.com, madh...@yahoo.com, mahar...@hotmail.com, meiz...@yahoo.com, messenger...@yahoo.com, mgr...@sbcglobal.net, mitche...@netzero.net, mrs...@verizon.net, mystiq...@yahoo.com, newlife...@yahoo.com, ne...@srilaprabhupada.com, nihar_...@yahoo.com, nimai...@gmail.com, orland...@gmail.com, pg1...@netzero.com, raghu...@rogers.com, rainbo...@yahoo.com, ram...@aol.com, ramar...@yahoo.com, ramr...@aol.com, remote....@gmail.com, rosemar...@netzero.com, royalt...@yahoo.com, royric...@yahoo.com, sansk...@gmail.com, she_ra_ven...@yahoo.com, shutup...@hotmail.com, stevie...@gmail.com, sunand...@hotmail.com, taru...@yahoo.com, trini...@aol.com, urdh...@aol.com, vibh...@yahoo.com, vidu...@hotmail.com, visho...@yahoo.com, visv...@hotmail.com, william...@jagannatha.com, windfl...@yahoo.com, w...@aol.com, wooro...@aol.com, wzo...@yahoo.com, zon...@hotmail.com, pedro...@gmail.com Received: Thursday, July 30, 2009, 11:06 AM

This is what I found on the wine thing......and at first read see nothing erroneous with it. Even in the second quote Prabhupada says "So far I know" And is this simple process for making "alcohol" workable? Not that it is necessarily drinkable, but that it has alcohol content.

Conversation 11/21/75 Prabhupāda: Molasses. Ferment molasses with sulphuric acid and then distill. It is wine, liquor. People are producing unnecessary quantity of sugarcane; therefore the drinking habit is increasing. Because from sugar the molasses is the by-product, so they have to use. They are finding out what is next industry, and the next industry is liquor, wine. So when they produce more wine, then they must sell, and the people must drink. This is going on, one after another. And in Hawaii, Mauritius and in so many other places we see they have produced unnecessary quantity of sugarcane. And then molasses... (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. And then wine, and they must be sold.       Lecture 4/14/73  If you actually love God, Kṛṣṇa, then you can remember Him at any time, always, always. There is no difficulty. Here Kuntīdevī describes paṅkaja, with reference to lotus flower. And Kṛṣṇa describes Himself in the Bhagavad-gītā, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya: [Bg. 7.8] "I am the taste of the liquid." So Kṛṣṇa can be remembered by tasting water. Even those who are drinking... If he thinks that "This taste of drinking is Kṛṣṇa," he will one day come out a great saintly person. Such a nice thing, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, if you have cultivate Kṛṣṇa consciousness, if you follow the description given by the śāstras. So I can request that even the drunkards that "You can become Kṛṣṇa conscious." The drunkard, what to speak of others? Because Kṛṣṇa says, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya: "I am the taste of the liquid." Generally, liquid, water is taken. So liquor is also liquid. Liquor is bad because it creates intoxication. Otherwise, it is made from sugar, molasses, molasses with sulphuric acid fermented, so far I know. We were in the chemical line. Molasses fermented with sulphuric acid and then distilled. That is called spirit, or liquor. So thing is, nothing is bad, but because if a thing creates bad effects, then it is bad. Then it is bad. So I shall request even the drunkards... In your country, there are many drunkards. There is no scarcity. So if you'll kindly remember when drinking wine that this nice taste of drinking is Kṛṣṇa... Just begin with it. You'll come out one day a saintly person, Kṛṣṇa conscious. It's so nice, practical.    On the air thing.....   Lecture 4/3/72    when we are within the womb of our mother, it is very precarious condition. Any medical man knows. We have to live there in this way, in a packed up bag, practically without any air. Airtight condition. Just imagine. Now just at the present moment if you are put into the airtight condition, you will die within three minutes or three seconds. The medical opinion is that. But in the womb of our mother we have to live for clear ten months or more than that in that airtight, packed-up condition. Just imagine how much troublesome condition was there. That is practical. We may have forgotten.(END)   I personally have no problem with this above. No mistakes.   Lecture 4/7/75   Māyā means to give sufficient punishment to the living entities who have forgotten Kṛṣṇa and wants to enjoy material life independently. They are called conditioned soul. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate [Bg. 8.19]. This conditioned life means we accept one type of body, we suffer sufficiently. It is simply suffering. There is no enjoyment. Where is enjoyment? To remain in the womb of the mother for ten months, is that enjoyment? Packed up in airtight bag? Just imagine, if you were put in airtight bag at the present moment, within three seconds you will die. You cannot live without air, even for three seconds. This is our position. And by māyā's arrangement, we have to remain at least for ten months within the airtight bag, embryo, within the abdomen of our mother. So if we cannot live for even three seconds without air, how it was possible to remain in that airtight bag for ten months? That is also Kṛṣṇa's mercy, to allow us to develop the body, so that coming out of the mother's womb we can live independently. To make us strong in the body. But the māyā is so strong that even within that position, the mother is also killing the child. This is Kali-yuga.(END)   Looks like a hyperbolic statement for effect and not siddhanta. I have no problem with this either!   Hare Krsna   Raja Caturbahu das Bhakti   --- On Thu, 7/30/09, Bhaktatraveler <bhaktat...@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Bhaktatraveler <bhaktat...@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Proof That They Went to the Moon

To: "Mahesh Raja" <mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk>, istag...@googlegroups.com Cc: aabha...@gmail.com, abhaya_m...@yahoo.com, adik...@gmail.com, anad...@yahoo.com, angin...@yahoo.com, ann.tr...@gmail.com, aryaan...@yahoo.com, basugh...@gmail.com, bhag...@hotmail.com, bhoj...@yahoo.com, bvsa...@gmail.com, compo...@yahoo.com, das...@pop.jaring.my, david...@dslextreme.com, d...@southwind.net, doro...@dslextreme.com, dway...@yahoo.com, ene...@dslextreme.com, esw...@sbcglobal.net, fallenf...@yahoo.com, fmor...@dharmacentral.com, frank-...@hotmail.com, gerisch...@yahoo.com, graem...@gmail.com, gregpr...@yahoo.com, gururagh...@yahoo.com, guruva...@yahoo.com, hms...@yahoo.com, in...@farmeducation.org, istag...@googlegroups.com, james...@email.com, jay....@gmail.com, jgc...@yahoo.com, jiva...@yahoo.com, kanhaiya...@hotmail.com, krishna...@yahoo.com, krsna...@yahoo.com, lak...@webtv.net, law...@juno.com, madh...@yahoo.com, mahar...@hotmail.com, meiz...@yahoo.com, messenger...@yahoo.com, mgr...@sbcglobal.net, mitche...@netzero.net, mrs...@verizon.net, mystiq...@yahoo.com, newlife...@yahoo.com, ne...@srilaprabhupada.com, nihar_...@yahoo.com, nimai...@gmail.com, orland...@gmail.com, pg1...@netzero.com, raghu...@rogers.com, rainbo...@yahoo.com, ram...@aol.com, ramar...@yahoo.com, ramr...@aol.com, remote....@gmail.com, rosemar...@netzero.com, royalt...@yahoo.com, royric...@yahoo.com, sansk...@gmail.com, she_ra_ven...@yahoo.com, shutup...@hotmail.com, stevie...@gmail.com, sunand...@hotmail.com, taru...@yahoo.com, trini...@aol.com, urdh...@aol.com, vibh...@yahoo.com, vidu...@hotmail.com, visho...@yahoo.com, visv...@hotmail.com, william...@jagannatha.com, windfl...@yahoo.com, w...@aol.com, wooro...@aol.com, wzo...@yahoo.com, zon...@hotmail.com, pedro...@gmail.com Date: Thursday, July 30, 2009, 9:57 AM

Could you quote context for # 2 + 3? #1 I was there for one time and personally see no problem with this brain thing.    I expect that your way of looking at this is to be scientific and conclusive in a mundane way but not taking into consideration that different activities very well could predisposed different results on the physical body. It could mean that an aryan male(4 varnas) has come to a higher standard of existence and development so as to have a more dense brain as opposed to a sub-human that has 0 capacity to think or live a life that would develop finer/denser tissue. I'm just looking for how Prabhupada is right.   Is anyone taking devotee brains(male or female) and weighting them? Is any one taking ANY brains and weighting them? Then again we are at the mercy of antagonist at best with the demoniac scientist. I go with Prabhupada on this!   I would like to see where the other statements come from though.   Hare Krsna

RCB --- On Thu, 7/30/09, Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Proof That They Went to the Moon

[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 11:54 AM, Alexandre Jablonski <alexandre...@yahoo.ca> wrote:

"Beet molasses due to its buffering capacity requires a higher content of sulphuric acid to reduce pH to optimum fermentation levels than when cane molasses forms the energy source."   The above statement does say something about sulphuric acid. The sentence that I included before it, I included for context.

 

But you left off the part about “Industrial Alcohol!”

Adding a very tiny percentage of some kind of acid to adjust a pH for ideal fermentation is getting very technical. The fermentation would take place with or without the added acid, because it’s the yeast that does the trick, not the acid.

[Greg Jay]

PAMHO AGTSP

The reason that some devotees cannot give up such conspiracy theories is simple. It has nothing to do with whether such things are facts or not. I has to do with their literal acceptance that literally everything Prabhupada said or did was perfect and that he as a pure devotee could not make any mistake. Nothing you say to such blind followers will convince them otherwise. Personally I have no problem accepting that Prabhupada was not omniscient neither was he literally perfect in everything he said or did. This does not diminish my respect for his spiritual teachings. The catholic church has a doctrine like this regarding the pope who they also see as the final word on spiritual (but not material) matters. When the pope speaks on spiritual doctrine it is called ex cathedra (literally speaking from the seat or chair of authority/vyasasana). But when the pope speaks on material subjects his words are not taken as absolute. Therefore if the pope tells us that it will definitely rain tomorrow we do not have to accept it, as he is not a perfect weatherman. Similarly when Prabhupada repeats sastra then no one can question it, however when he offers a personal opinion on some material subject he may or may not be correct. Just like when Prabhupada offers the opinion in 1976 that there is soon within a few years be a nuclear war between India and Pakistan, then we do not have to accept it as inevitable.

The conclusion is that you can't convince people who do not want to be convinced. They have decided that Prabhupada can never make even the simplest mistakes (like sipping water from his left hand while saying acamana, which he clearly did in the early days of ISKCON, film footage is available) therefore the is no use in trying to convince them otherwise.

ys

GKD

[Bhaktatraveler]

Considering every thing posted so far, do you really see fault in Prabhupada's statements Pratyatosa?   Your response below is nit picky. Prabhupada is not giving class on chemistry. He says so far I know. So Srila Prabhupada knew of adding this acid at some point in alcohol production. Some how, some where, so far I know. It is a very small, easily explainable nuance to an individuals personality.   I see the same thing in the 3 seconds/air thing. Small detail not pursuant to the bigger discussion at hand.   On the brain thing. Consideration needs to include that common man passes semen multiple times in a month. Vedic man is to follow a more conservative regulation and so many other Vedic considerations. So all the scientific subjects could further be irrelevant to the gist of the discussion and that is that man has more capacity than woman. Which is what I see as the topic, not the actual numbers.   The moon is the most interesting for me and I have to say I will error on the side of caution and go with what Srila Prabhupada says over all. They didn't go, mostly, or if they did, they saw nothing, useless waste of time and expenditure, man can not stay.   I think the secular evidence is equally well presented. But still, then I have to trust people I chose not to trust long before knowing Krsna or ever hearing the Holy Names. Hard thing for me, this mood has served me well and brought me to Srila Prabhupada.

Hare Krsna   RCB   --- On Thu, 7/30/09, Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Proof That They Went to the Moon

To: aabha...@gmail.com, abhaya_m...@yahoo.com, adik...@gmail.com, anad...@yahoo.com, angin...@yahoo.com, ann.tr...@gmail.com, aryaan...@yahoo.com, basugh...@gmail.com, bhag...@hotmail.com, bhoj...@yahoo.com, bvsa...@gmail.com, compo...@yahoo.com, david...@dslextreme.com, d...@southwind.net, doro...@dslextreme.com, dway...@yahoo.com, ene...@dslextreme.com, esw...@sbcglobal.net, fallenf...@yahoo.com, fmor...@dharmacentral.com, frank-...@hotmail.com, gerisch...@yahoo.com, graem...@gmail.com, gregpr...@yahoo.com, gururagh...@yahoo.com, guruva...@yahoo.com, hms...@yahoo.com, in...@farmeducation.org, istag...@googlegroups.com, james...@email.com, jay....@gmail.com, jgc...@yahoo.com, jiva...@yahoo.com, kanhaiya...@hotmail.com, krishna...@yahoo.com, krsna...@yahoo.com, lak...@webtv.net, law...@juno.com, madh...@yahoo.com, mahar...@hotmail.com, mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk, meiz...@yahoo.com, messenger...@yahoo.com, mgr...@sbcglobal.net, mitche...@netzero.net, mrs...@verizon.net, mystiq...@yahoo.com, newlife...@yahoo.com, ne...@srilaprabhupada.com, nihar_...@yahoo.com, nimai...@gmail.com, orland...@gmail.com, pg1...@netzero.com, raghu...@rogers.com, rainbo...@yahoo.com, ram...@aol.com, ramar...@yahoo.com, ramr...@aol.com, remote....@gmail.com, rosemar...@netzero.com, royalt...@yahoo.com, royric...@yahoo.com, sansk...@gmail.com, she_ra_ven...@yahoo.com, shutup...@hotmail.com, stevie...@gmail.com, sunand...@hotmail.com, taru...@yahoo.com, trini...@aol.com, urdh...@aol.com, vibh...@yahoo.com, vidu...@hotmail.com, visho...@yahoo.com, visv...@hotmail.com, william...@jagannatha.com, windfl...@yahoo.com, w...@aol.com, wooro...@aol.com, wzo...@yahoo.com, zon...@hotmail.com, pedro...@gmail.com Date: Thursday, July 30, 2009, 11:42 AM

Bhakta Alex Prabhu, please reply to all of the receivers, not just istag...@googlegroups.com.

On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 11:30 AM, Alexandre Jablonski <alexandre...@yahoo.ca> wrote: I read the following information on two website linked on a recent KRSNAblog post.

"Industrial cane molasses contains B Vitamins and biotin, both helpful in the fermentation process to produce alcohol for use in alcohol drinks, cosmetics and solvents.

Says nothing about sulphuric acid.

"Beet molasses due to its buffering capacity requires a higher content of sulphuric acid to reduce pH to optimum fermentation levels than when cane molasses forms the energy source."

Source:  http://www.premiermolasses.ie/uses.htm

This is for producing “Industrial Alcohol,” not wine.

"Sugar-cane molasses is fermented and distilled to make rum. The residue after distillation has a very high content of ash, especially calcium sulphate. If the residue is to be used as animal feed, the calcium must be removed from the molasses prior to fermentation by means of the Reich process. The molasses are diluted with water to 40 Brix and heated to 80 C. Sulphuric acid is added to pH 4, and after one hour the solution is centrifuged, thereby removing about 80% of the calcium."

Source: http://www.fao.org/ag/aga/agap/frg/afris/Data/466.HTM

The sulphuric acid is added after the rum is produced. Also, this indicates that from molasses we get rum, not wine.

[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

Very well said, Gaura Keshava Prabhu.

Sometimes it’s more sinister than just blind following. Sometimes it’s, “Look how advanced I am! I just accept everything Śṛīla Prabhupāda says without question! I’m really, really superior to my insincere godbrothers who don’t!” In some cases they are simply putting on a big show.

One devotee said (paraphrased) “When Śṛīla Prabhupāda says that the moon is further away than the sun, I just accept it!” But he didn’t even have enough faith in Śṛīla Prabhupāda to send any of his children to gurukula! Not only that, but he brags about it! Is it any wonder than none of his children have accomplished anything in Kṛṣṇa consciousness! I wouldn’t be surprised if none of them ever do accomplish anything, in this lifetime at least.

Your servant, Pratyatoṣa Dāsa

[Mahesh Raja]

Hare Krishna Dear Prabhu, all obeisances for you, all glories to Srila Prabhupada. Pratyatosa Prabhu has banned me from the group, because I have challenged him on this. But you may be interested to know that indeed sulphuric acid is used to reduce ph to optimal levels for fermentation of molasses in producing ethanol. A simple google search yields evidence of this. Of course yeast is the catalyst for fermentation, but sulphuric acid assists the fermentation. I have called Pratyatosa's attention to this; however, he refuses to withdraw his ridicule of Srila Prabhupada's statement, and now we see that he has become vehemently defensive of his finding fault with Srila Prabhupada in this instance. I am sorry that I am unable to participate in the discussion, but I refuse to un-publish Praghosa's post in answer to Pratyatosa (which was very respectful, in my opinion) up at http://bhaktivedantas.com/ART_NAMHATTA/moonlanding290709.php, and Pratyatosa demands its withdrawal as a condition for reinstating me in the group. And seeing that I am banned, I have published an answer to Pratyatosa's assertion that Srila Prabhupada is a conditioned soul subject to 4 defects up at http://harekrishnamalaysia.com/krsnablog/2009/07/30/srila-prabhupada-a-conditioned-soul/. Maybe you will check out the references I have cited there: -- http://www.premiermolasses.ie/uses.htm http://www.fao.org/ag/aga/agap/frg/afris/Data/466.HTM And if you feel so inclined, maybe you will take up the defence of Srila Prabhupada in the forum and persuade Pratyatosa to come down from his high horse and be a little more honest. He writes the following even after I have directed him to read the evidence that supports Srila Prabhupada's statement. Best wishes - your servant, das devi dasi

At 11:12 AM -0400 7/30/09, Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP wrote:

On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 11:06 AM, Bhaktatraveler <bhaktat...@yahoo.com> wrote:

This is what I found on the wine thing......and at first read see nothing erroneous with it. Even in the second quote Prabhupada says "So far I know" And is this simple process for making "alcohol" workable? Not that it is necessarily drinkable, but that it has alcohol content.

Absolutely not! Fermentation is caused by yeast. It has nothing to do with sulphuric acid. I used to make my own wine when I was in college, and I also got straight A's in college chemistry.

--- On Thu, 30/7/09, Bhaktatraveler <bhaktat...@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Bhaktatraveler <bhaktat...@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Proof That They Went to the Moon

To: "Mahesh Raja" <mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk>, istag...@googlegroups.com Cc: aabha...@gmail.com, abhaya_m...@yahoo.com, adik...@gmail.com, anad...@yahoo.com, angin...@yahoo.com, ann.tr...@gmail.com, aryaandvijeta@yahoo..com, basugh...@gmail.com, bhag...@hotmail.com, bhoj...@yahoo.com, bvsa...@gmail.com, compo...@yahoo.com, das...@pop.jaring.my, david...@dslextreme.com, d...@southwind.net, doro...@dslextreme.com, dway...@yahoo.com, ene...@dslextreme.com, esw...@sbcglobal.net, fallenf...@yahoo.com, fmor...@dharmacentral.com, frank-...@hotmail.com, gerisch...@yahoo.com, graem...@gmail.com, gregpr...@yahoo.com, gururagh...@yahoo.com, guruva...@yahoo.com, hms...@yahoo.com, in...@farmeducation.org, istag...@googlegroups.com, james...@email.com, jay....@gmail.com, jgc...@yahoo.com, jiva...@yahoo.com, kanhaiya...@hotmail.com, krishna...@yahoo.com, krsna...@yahoo.com, lak...@webtv.net, law...@juno.com, madh...@yahoo.com, mahar...@hotmail.com, meiz...@yahoo.com, messenger...@yahoo.com, mgr...@sbcglobal.net, mitche...@netzero.net, mrs...@verizon.net, mystiq...@yahoo.com, newlife...@yahoo.com, ne...@srilaprabhupada.com, nihar_...@yahoo.com, nimai...@gmail.com, orland...@gmail.com, pg1...@netzero.com, raghu...@rogers.com, rainbo...@yahoo.com, ram...@aol.com, ramar...@yahoo.com, ramr...@aol.com, remote....@gmail.com, rosemar...@netzero.com, royalt...@yahoo.com, royric...@yahoo.com, sansk...@gmail.com, she_ra_ven...@yahoo.com, shutup...@hotmail.com, stevie...@gmail.com, sunand...@hotmail.com, taru...@yahoo.com, trini...@aol.com, urdh...@aol.com, vibh...@yahoo.com, vidu...@hotmail.com, visho...@yahoo.com, visv...@hotmail.com, william...@jagannatha.com, windfl...@yahoo.com, w...@aol.com, wooro...@aol.com, wzo...@yahoo.com, zon...@hotmail.com, pedro...@gmail.com Date: Thursday, 30 July, 2009, 4:06 PM

This is what I found on the wine thing......and at first read see nothing erroneous with it. Even in the second quote Prabhupada says "So far I know" And is this simple process for making "alcohol" workable? Not that it is necessarily drinkable, but that it has alcohol content.     Conversation 11/21/75 Prabhupāda: Molasses. Ferment molasses with sulphuric acid and then distill. It is wine, liquor. People are producing unnecessary quantity of sugarcane; therefore the drinking habit is increasing. Because from sugar the molasses is the by-product, so they have to use. They are finding out what is next industry, and the next industry is liquor, wine. So when they produce more wine, then they must sell, and the people must drink. This is going on, one after another. And in Hawaii, Mauritius and in so many other places we see they have produced unnecessary quantity of sugarcane. And then molasses... (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. And then wine, and they must be sold.       Lecture 4/14/73

If you actually love God, Kṛṣṇa, then you can remember Him at any time, always, always. There is no difficulty. Here Kuntīdevī describes paṅkaja, with reference to lotus flower. And Kṛṣṇa describes Himself in the Bhagavad-gītā, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya: [Bg. 7.8] "I am the taste of the liquid." So Kṛṣṇa can be remembered by tasting water. Even those who are drinking... If he thinks that "This taste of drinking is Kṛṣṇa," he will one day come out a great saintly person. Such a nice thing, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, if you have cultivate Kṛṣṇa consciousness, if you follow the description given by the śāstras. So I can request that even the drunkards that "You can become Kṛṣṇa conscious.." The drunkard, what to speak of others? Because Kṛṣṇa says, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya: "I am the taste of the liquid." Generally, liquid, water is taken. So liquor is also liquid. Liquor is bad because it creates intoxication. Otherwise, it is made from sugar, molasses, molasses with sulphuric acid fermented, so far I know. We were in the chemical line. Molasses fermented with sulphuric acid and then distilled. That is called spirit, or liquor. So thing is, nothing is bad, but because if a thing creates bad effects, then it is bad. Then it is bad. So I shall request even the drunkards.... In your country, there are many drunkards. There is no scarcity. So if you'll kindly remember when drinking wine that this nice taste of drinking is Kṛṣṇa... Just begin with it. You'll come out one day a saintly person, Kṛṣṇa conscious. It's so nice, practical.

On the air thing.....   Lecture 4/3/72    when we are within the womb of our mother, it is very precarious condition. Any medical man knows. We have to live there in this way, in a packed up bag, practically without any air. Airtight condition. Just imagine. Now just at the present moment if you are put into the airtight condition, you will die within three minutes or three seconds. The medical opinion is that. But in the womb of our mother we have to live for clear ten months or more than that in that airtight, packed-up condition. Just imagine how much troublesome condition was there. That is practical. We may have forgotten.(END)   I personally have no problem with this above. No mistakes.   Lecture 4/7/75   Māyā means to give sufficient punishment to the living entities who have forgotten Kṛṣṇa and wants to enjoy material life independently. They are called conditioned soul. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate [Bg. 8.19]. This conditioned life means we accept one type of body, we suffer sufficiently. It is simply suffering. There is no enjoyment. Where is enjoyment? To remain in the womb of the mother for ten months, is that enjoyment? Packed up in airtight bag? Just imagine, if you were put in airtight bag at the present moment, within three seconds you will die. You cannot live without air, even for three seconds. This is our position. And by māyā's arrangement, we have to remain at least for ten months within the airtight bag, embryo, within the abdomen of our mother. So if we cannot live for even three seconds without air, how it was possible to remain in that airtight bag for ten months? That is also Kṛṣṇa's mercy, to allow us to develop the body, so that coming out of the mother's womb we can live independently. To make us strong in the body. But the māyā is so strong that even within that position, the mother is also killing the child. This is Kali-yuga.(END)   Looks like a hyperbolic statement for effect and not siddhanta. I have no problem with this either!   Hare Krsna   Raja Caturbahu das Bhakti

--- On Thu, 7/30/09, Bhaktatraveler <bhaktatraveler@yahoo..com> wrote:

From: Bhaktatraveler <bhaktat...@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Proof That They Went to the Moon

To: "Mahesh Raja" <mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk>, istag...@googlegroups.com Cc: aabha...@gmail.com, abhaya_m...@yahoo.com, adik...@gmail.com, anad...@yahoo.com, angin...@yahoo.com, ann.tr...@gmail.com, aryaandvijeta@yahoo..com, basugh...@gmail.com, bhag...@hotmail.com, bhoj...@yahoo.com, bvsa...@gmail.com, compo...@yahoo.com, das...@pop.jaring.my, david...@dslextreme.com, d...@southwind.net, doro...@dslextreme.com, dway...@yahoo.com, ene...@dslextreme.com, esw...@sbcglobal.net, fallenf...@yahoo.com, fmor...@dharmacentral.com, frank-...@hotmail.com, gerisch...@yahoo.com, graem...@gmail.com, gregpr...@yahoo.com, gururagh...@yahoo.com, guruva...@yahoo.com, hms...@yahoo.com, in...@farmeducation.org, istag...@googlegroups.com, james...@email.com, jay....@gmail.com, jgc...@yahoo.com, jiva...@yahoo.com, kanhaiya...@hotmail.com, krishna...@yahoo.com, krsna...@yahoo.com, lak...@webtv.net, law...@juno.com, madh...@yahoo.com, mahar...@hotmail.com, meiz...@yahoo.com, messenger...@yahoo.com, mgr...@sbcglobal.net, mitche...@netzero.net, mrs...@verizon.net, mystiq...@yahoo.com, newlife...@yahoo.com, ne...@srilaprabhupada.com, nihar_...@yahoo.com, nimai...@gmail.com, orland...@gmail.com, pg1...@netzero.com, raghu...@rogers.com, rainbo...@yahoo.com, ram...@aol.com, ramar...@yahoo.com, ramr...@aol.com, remote....@gmail.com, rosemar...@netzero.com, royalt...@yahoo.com, royric...@yahoo.com, sansk...@gmail.com, she_ra_ven...@yahoo.com, shutup...@hotmail.com, stevie...@gmail.com, sunand...@hotmail.com, taru...@yahoo.com, trini...@aol.com, urdh...@aol.com, vibh...@yahoo.com, vidu...@hotmail.com, visho...@yahoo.com, visv...@hotmail.com, william...@jagannatha.com, windfl...@yahoo.com, w...@aol.com, wooro...@aol.com, wzo...@yahoo.com, zon...@hotmail.com, pedro...@gmail.com Date: Thursday, July 30, 2009, 9:57 AM

Could you quote context for # 2 + 3? #1 I was there for one time and personally see no problem with this brain thing.    I expect that your way of looking at this is to be scientific and conclusive in a mundane way but not taking into consideration that different activities very well could predisposed different results on the physical body. It could mean that an aryan male(4 varnas) has come to a higher standard of existence and development so as to have a more dense brain as opposed to a sub-human that has 0 capacity to think or live a life that would develop finer/denser tissue. I'm just looking for how Prabhupada is right.   Is anyone taking devotee brains(male or female) and weighting them? Is any one taking ANY brains and weighting them? Then again we are at the mercy of antagonist at best with the demoniac scientist. I go with Prabhupada on this!   I would like to see where the other statements come from though.

Hare Krsna   RCB --- On Thu, 7/30/09, Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Proof That They Went to the Moon

To: "Mahesh Raja" <mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk> Cc: aabha...@gmail.com, abhaya_m...@yahoo.com, adik...@gmail.com, anad...@yahoo.com, angini1984@yahoo..com, ann.tr...@gmail.com, aryaan...@yahoo.com, basugh...@gmail.com, bhag...@hotmail.com, bhoj...@yahoo.com, bvsa...@gmail.com, compo...@yahoo.com, das...@pop.jaring.my, david...@dslextreme.com, d...@southwind.net, doro...@dslextreme.com, dway...@yahoo.com, ene...@dslextreme.com, esw...@sbcglobal.net, fallenf...@yahoo.com, fmor...@dharmacentral.com, frank-...@hotmail.com, gerisch...@yahoo.com, graem...@gmail.com, gregpr...@yahoo.com, gururagh...@yahoo.com, guruva...@yahoo.com, hms...@yahoo.com, in...@farmeducation.org, istag...@googlegroups.com, james...@email.com, jay....@gmail.com, jgc...@yahoo.com, jiva...@yahoo.com, kanhaiya...@hotmail.com, krishna...@yahoo.com, krsna...@yahoo.com, lak...@webtv.net, law...@juno.com, madh...@yahoo.com, mahar...@hotmail.com, meiz...@yahoo.com, messenger...@yahoo.com, mgr...@sbcglobal.net, mitche...@netzero.net, mrs...@verizon.net, mystiq...@yahoo.com, newlife...@yahoo.com, ne...@srilaprabhupada.com, nihar_...@yahoo.com, nimai...@gmail.com, orland...@gmail.com, pg1...@netzero.com, raghu...@rogers.com, rainbo...@yahoo.com, ram...@aol.com, ramar...@yahoo.com, ramr...@aol.com, remote....@gmail.com, rosemar...@netzero.com, royalt...@yahoo.com, royric...@yahoo.com, sansk...@gmail.com, she_ra_ven...@yahoo.com, shutup...@hotmail.com, stevie...@gmail.com, sunandanadas@hotmail..com, taru...@yahoo.com, trini...@aol.com, urdh...@aol.com, vibh...@yahoo.com, vidu...@hotmail.com, visho...@yahoo.com, visv...@hotmail.com, william...@jagannatha.com, windfl...@yahoo.com, w...@aol.com, wooro...@aol.com, wzo...@yahoo.com, zon...@hotmail.com, pedro...@gmail.com Date: Thursday, July 30, 2009, 9:22 AM

Right, Mahesh Prabhu. And Śrīla Prabhupāda also says: 1. “Women’s brains never weigh more than 34 or 36 ounces!” 2. “We can’t live for more than 3 seconds without air!” 3. “You can make wine by mixing molasses and sulfuric acid!” How do you explain that? Śrīla Prabhupāda didn’t want blind followers. Crooks, rascals, fools, and blind followers are the kind of disciples that the bogus ISKCON gurus get.

Your servant, Pratyatoṣa Dāsa

[Greg Jay]

PAMHO AGTSP

On Jul 30, 2009, at 6:35 AM, Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP wrote:

One devotee said (paraphrased) “When Śṛīla Prabhupāda says that the moon is further away than the sun, I just accept it!”

What needs to be accepted and what does not need to be accepted is where devotees need to discriminate. This is why we have a sampradaya. If all the previous acharyas, sadhus and sastras agree with the statements of guru then this has to be accepted (in other words when our three proofs guru, sadhu and sastra all line up and support each other). When the statements of a particular sadhu or guru disagree with the other gurus, sadhus and sastras of the sampradaya then they need to be examined. It's possible something might not be mentioned in sastra. However if it's clearly stated in sastra and by the previous acharyas then it should not be doubted. The other supporting methods of proof are logic and sense perception. These are also valuable especially when dealing with material subject matters.

Most devotees make gut decisions on subjects rather than those based on actual research into guru, sadhu and sastra. They also are not consistent in their application of philosophy or logic. We can and do come to very different conclusions when we start with different axioms. If our axiom is that the guru is omniscient and perfect even in all material knowledge and actions then we come to a different conclusion. For example there is a theory by some that since Prabhupada is omniscient he must have known about gurukuli abuse. The conclusion based on the axiom that Prabhupada is omniscient is that he therefore knew about gurukuli abuse and yet did nothing about it. In some people's minds this makes Prabhupada evil. However Prabhupada is not evil, it is their incorrect axiom which leads to such a erroneous conclusion.

If we take as axiomatic that Prabhupada did not change the teachings of the guru parampara (guru, sadhu and sastra) then when we see that he seems to change them we have to evaluate those changes in respect to the teachings of the guru parampara (guru, sadhu and sastra). We have to reject conclusions that indicate that he deviated from the teachings of the guru parampara (guru, sadhu and sastra) and we have to accept conclusions that show how he in fact followed the teachings of the guru parampara (guru, sadhu and sastra). Otherwise our axiom that Prabhupada did not change the teachings of the guru parampara (guru, sadhu and sastra) has to be accepted as incorrect.

Some people do not accept that axiom and see Prabhupada as able to make any change to the teachings of the guru parampara (guru, sadhu and sastra). This places Prabhupada and his changes outside the tradition or guru parampara. Such people prefer to believe in a Prabhupada sampradaya where they do not have to take into consideration anything but his teachings without reference to the teachings of the guru parampara (guru, sadhu and sastra).

Each of us needs to ponder what axioms we accept. Then our conclusions should be consistent with the axioms that we accept. If we find that the logical conclusions lead us to statements like "Prabhupada was omniscient and therefore knew about gurukuli abuse and yet did nothing about it, and therefore Prabhupada is evil." then perhaps we had better re-examine our axioms.

ys

GKD

[Mahesh Raja]

[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

The real reason that Mother Das devi dasi was unsubscribed from the forum is as follows:

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com>

Date: Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 5:28 AM
Subject: Re: Istagosthi forum
To: Diane Marie Chan <das...@streamyx.com>


Dear Mother Das Prabhu, Hare Kṛṣṇa! Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Śṛīla Prabhupāda!

I’m happy to hear that you are interested in increasing your participation in our forum.

Just a few minutes before I got that email from you, I sent out the following email:

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Pratyatoṣa Dāsa ACBSP <pratyatoṣa...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 3:21 AM
Subject: Is It OK to Demand Help with Our Service to Śrīla Prabhupāda?
To: istag...@googlegroups.com


I have a proven track record of getting things done. How would you like it if I criticized you for not helping me with my service? How would you like it if I told you that if you didn’t help me with my service to Śṛīla Prabhupāda, you would lose your posting privileges or be banned?

What is your track record? You showed a lack of Prabhupādanuga family loyalty by criticizing Purañjana Prabhu in public on the Sampradaya Sun. Is that your only accomplishment? As far as I’m concerned, if Purañjana gives the word, you are banned from this forum! I think an apology is in order.

For now, you are back to being moderated.

Your servant, Pratyatoṣa Dāsa, Moderator

Did you get it?

In any case, I regard:

http://www.bhaktivedantas.com/ART_NAMHATTA/moonlanding290709.php

…as “a lack of Prabhupādanuga family loyalty by criticizing [a Prabhupādanuga] in public.” This is the reason that Hansadutta and his followers have been unsubscribed. All that you have to do is to remove the offending article, and all of you will be welcomed back to the forum with open arms. I’m sure that it was just an honest mistake.

Your servant, Pratyatoṣa Dāsa

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com>

Date: Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 9:52 AM
Subject: Re: Istagosthi forum
To: Diane Marie Chan <das...@streamyx.com>

On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 9:42 AM, Diane Marie Chan <das...@streamyx.com> wrote:

Hare Krishna

Dear Pratyatosa Prabhu, obeisances for you, all glories to Srila Prabhupada.

Wait a minute, you can deride Srila Prabhupada openly, but when a devotee calls you on it, you take great offense. All I did was re-publish the discussion (your own words and those of Praghosa in answer - which was already posted in the group for all the members to see - and you took the liberty to ban both myself and Hansadutta in one fell swoop.

How do you think that you even got to see Praghoṣa’s reply? He was being moderated. You got too see it only because I forwarded it to the forum. Yet, without my permission, you copy/pasted what I said and what he said to your website. Not only is this against Prabhupādanuga family loyalty, but it’s against journalistic standards. Before you are allowed back on the forum, you must remove the article, and promise not to publish anything I post on the forum without my permission.

Ys, Ptd

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com>

Date: Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 9:56 AM
Subject: Re: Istagosthi forum
To: Diane Marie Chan <das...@streamyx.com>


...and you must also promise not to publish anything posted by any other member of the forum without his or her permission.

Your servant, Pratyatoṣa Dāsa, Moderator

On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 3:31 AM, Diane Marie Chan <das...@streamyx.com> wrote:
Hare Krishna
Dear Pratyatosa Prabhu, obeisances for you, all glories to Srila Prabhupada.

I've just learned that I've been banned from the group. Please can you give me a reason? If I've been banned by mistake, please reinstate me (chank...@gmail.com). I think you have also removed Hansadutta from the group, because none of the posts are coming to his email since yesterday.

If you have banned me because you object to my post yesterday, please tell me what is the criteria by which you decide to admit or ban members. I do not believe I was being disrespectful at all or out of line.

I would like to participate in the discussions, and in particular I have something new to submit in answer to the recent posts re Proof That They Went to the Moon. - your servant, das dd

[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

Now you’ve gone back to your fantasy world, Gaura Keshava Prabhu, grasping at straws to try and support your untenable anti-rtvik position:

http://pratyatosa.com/RitvikBashersAreDemons.htm#UnprecedentedPolicies

Your servant, Pratyatoṣa Dāsa

[Urdh...@aol.com]

>>> I just accept everything Srila Prabhupada says without question! I’m really, really superior to my insincere godbrothers who don’t!” >>>

Once you accept a guru there is no more questioning whether he is right or wrong on anything, you are just supposed to surrender. If a guru says a rope is a snake then you say “jaya, it is a snake”, if he then says the rope is a rope you say “jaya, it is a rope”. This is because the guru is beyond material contamination andconditioning, he is perfect, even if what he says seems wrong, you must accept that he is correct because he has superior abilities and vision than your own.

Srila Prabhupadas "snake/rope" example:

When the bonafide Guru tells the disciple "This is a snake," the disciple acts on this premise: "Guru Maharaj told me this is a snake, so it IS a SNAKE!" Then Guru Maharaj says, "No, it's a rope," so the disciple "shiftsgear" and changes hir vision, "It's a ROPE!" Then Guru Maharaj says,"No, it's a snake," so the disciple again shifts gear, to see before him, a snake, and so on.

Cc Adi 16.81P -  "The central point of all Vaisnava philosophy is to accept the inconceivable potency of Lord Visnu. What sometimes appears contradictory from a material viewpoint is understandable in connection with the Supreme Personality of Godhead because He can perform contradictory activities by dint of His inconceivable potencies. Modern scientists are puzzled."

Lord Krsna also sends His pure devotee to our world, and is very attentive to see how we treat His pure devotee. This is a big test. Similarly, His pure devotee, Srila Prabhupada, is often testing disciples. It is said that when the guru calls a rope a snake, then the disciple will beat the rope as if it were a snake. Then the guru calls it a rope, and the disciple sees it as a rope. If the guru again calls the rope a snake, then the disciple again acts if it were a snake. The guru sometimes gives illogical puzzles, to encourage the disciple to relinquish his false ego of material logic.

Once in Los Angeles, 2 disciples approached Srila Prabhupada in his room, with a challenging mood. They brought up some seemingly material contradictions in the Krsna book, saying these things were impossible. Srila Prabhupada told them [if memory serves] that they could leave, because they were without a guru as of that moment. This was a severe case of flunking the contradiction test. This is where pride and material logic can get a careless devotee in very deep trouble.

I have heard that Sri Madvacharya once said that Lord Krsna purposely puts little contradictions into the sastra, just to facilitate doubting souls who are looking for holes in the philosophy, to give a little fodder to bolster their atheist mentalities. The Bhagvad Gita states that Lord Krsna knows what desires are in the hearts of the jiva, and facilitates that desire. If someone wants to doubt Krsna, then Krsna will help him do that, will direct him within the heart to focus on contradictory glitches in sastra, so that he can fulfill his doubt, so he can justify material desires.

Urdhvaga das

----------------------------------

praty...@gmail.com:

Thema: Re: Proof That They Went to the Moon
Datum: 30.07.2009 18:36:11 Westeuropäische Normalzeit
Von: praty...@gmail.com
An: jay....@gmail.com
Kopie an: aabha...@gmail.com, abhaya_m...@yahoo.com, adik...@gmail.com, anad...@yahoo.com, angin...@yahoo.com, ann.tr...@gmail.com, aryaan...@yahoo.com, basugh...@gmail.com, bhag...@hotmail.com, bhoj...@yahoo.com, bvsa...@gmail.com, compo...@yahoo.com, das...@pop.jaring.my, david...@dslextreme.com, d...@southwind.net, doro...@dslextreme.com, dway...@yahoo.com, ene...@dslextreme.com, esw...@sbcglobal.net, fallenf...@yahoo.com, fmor...@dharmacentral.com, frank-...@hotmail.com, gerisch...@yahoo.com, graem...@gmail.com, gregpr...@yahoo.com, gururagh...@yahoo.com, guruva...@yahoo.com, hms...@yahoo.com, in...@farmeducation.org, istag...@googlegroups.com, james...@email.com, jgc...@yahoo.com, jiva...@yahoo.com, kanhaiya...@hotmail.com, krishna...@yahoo.com, krsna...@yahoo.com, lak...@webtv.net, law...@juno.com, madh...@yahoo.com, mahar...@hotmail.com, mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk, meiz...@yahoo.com, messenger...@yahoo.com, mgr...@sbcglobal.net, mitche...@netzero.net, mrs...@verizon.net, mystiq...@yahoo.com, newlife...@yahoo.com, ne...@srilaprabhupada.com, nihar_...@yahoo.com, nimai...@gmail.com, orland...@gmail.com, pg1...@netzero.com, raghu...@rogers.com, rainbo...@yahoo.com, ram...@aol.com, ramar...@yahoo.com, ramr...@aol.com, remote....@gmail.com, rosemar...@netzero.com, royalt...@yahoo.com, royric...@yahoo.com, sansk...@gmail.com, she_ra_ven...@yahoo.com, shutup...@hotmail.com, stevie...@gmail.com, sunand...@hotmail.com, taru...@yahoo.com, trini...@aol.com, urdh...@aol.com, vibh...@yahoo.com, vidu...@hotmail.com, visho...@yahoo.com, visv...@hotmail.com, william...@jagannatha.com, windfl...@yahoo.com, w...@aol.com, wooro...@aol.com, wzo...@yahoo.com, zon...@hotmail.com, pedro...@gmail.com
Internet-eMail:

Very well said, Gaura Keshava Prabhu.

Sometimes it’s more sinister than just blind following. Sometimes it’s, “Look how advanced I am! I just accept everything Srila Prabhupada says without question! I’m really, really superior to my insincere godbrothers who don’t!” In some cases they are simply putting on a big show.

One devotee said (paraphrased) “When Srila Prabhupada says that the moon is further away than the sun, I just accept it!” But he didn’t even have enough faith in Srila Prabhupada to send any of his children to gurukula! Not only that, but he brags about it! Is it any wonder than none of his children have accomplished anything in Krsna consciousness! I wouldn’t be surprised if none of them ever do accomplish anything, in this lifetime at least.

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa

On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 12:09 PM, Greg Jay <jay....@gmail.com> wrote:

PAMHO AGTSP

The reason that some devotees cannot give up such conspiracy theories is simple. It has nothing to do with whether such things are facts or not. I has to do with their literal acceptance that literally everything Prabhupada said or did was perfect and that he as a pure devotee could not make any mistake. Nothing you say to such blind followers will convince them otherwise. Personally I have no problem accepting that Prabhupada was not omniscient neither was he literally perfect in everything he said or did. This does not diminish my respect for his spiritual teachings. The catholic church has a doctrine like this regarding the pope who they also see as the final word on spiritual (but not material) matters. When the pope speaks on spiritual doctrine it is called ex cathedra (literally speaking from the seat or chair of authority/vyasasana). But when the pope speaks on material subjects his words are not taken as absolute. Therefore if the pope tells us that it will definitely rain tomorrow we do not have to accept it, as he is not a perfect weatherman. Similarly when Prabhupada repeats sastra then no one can question it, however when he offers a personal opinion on some material subject he may or may not be correct. Just like when Prabhupada offers the opinion in 1976 that there is soon within a few years be a nuclear war between India and Pakistan, then we do not have to accept it as inevitable.


The conclusion is that you can't convince people who do not want to be convinced. They have decided that Prabhupada can never make even the simplest mistakes (like sipping water from his left hand while saying acamana, which he clearly did in the early days of ISKCON, film footage is available) therefore the is no use in trying to convince them otherwise.


ys


GKD

On Jul 30, 2009, at 1:36 AM, Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP wrote:

Dear Prabhus, Hare Krsna! Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

[larry tremain]

if  Supersoul is guiding Prabhupad what to do perfectly; which is so;

Supersoul is not bothering to tell Prabhupad what some rikshaw driver is thinking on the streets of Hong Kong.....................

right?

why should He?

http://community.webtv.net/lakshmi/TheLakshmiSampradaya

---

From: Urdh...@aol.com
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 18:22:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Proof That They Went to the Moon
To: praty...@gmail.com
CC: aabha...@gmail.com; abhaya_m...@yahoo.com; adik...@gmail.com; anad...@yahoo.com; angin...@yahoo.com; ann.tr...@gmail.com; aryaan...@yahoo.com; basugh...@gmail.com; bhag...@hotmail.com; bhoj...@yahoo.com; bvsa...@gmail.com; compo...@yahoo.com; das...@pop.jaring.my; david...@dslextreme.com; d...@southwind.net; doro...@dslextreme.com; dway...@yahoo.com; ene...@dslextreme.com; esw...@sbcglobal.net; fallenf...@yahoo.com; fmor...@dharmacentral.com; frank-...@hotmail.com; gerisch...@yahoo.com; graem...@gmail.com; gregpr...@yahoo.com; gururagh...@yahoo.com; guruva...@yahoo.com; hms...@yahoo.com; in...@farmeducation.org; istag...@googlegroups.com; james...@email.com; jgc...@yahoo.com; jiva...@yahoo.com; kanhaiya...@hotmail.com; krishna...@yahoo.com; krsna...@yahoo.com; lak...@webtv.net; law...@juno.com; madh...@yahoo.com; mahar...@hotmail.com; mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk; meiz...@yahoo.com; messenger...@yahoo.com; mgr...@sbcglobal.net; mitche...@netzero.net; mrs...@verizon.net; mystiq...@yahoo.com; newlife...@yahoo.com; ne...@srilaprabhupada.com; nihar_...@yahoo.com; nimai...@gmail.com; orland...@gmail.com; pg1...@netzero.com; raghu...@rogers.com; rainbo...@yahoo.com; RAM...@aol.com; ramar...@yahoo.com; Ramr...@aol.com; remote....@gmail.com; rosemar...@netzero.com; royalt...@yahoo.com; royric...@yahoo.com; sansk...@gmail.com; she_ra_ven...@yahoo.com; shutup...@hotmail.com; stevie...@gmail.com; sunand...@hotmail.com; taru...@yahoo.com; TRINI...@aol.com; vibh...@yahoo.com; vidu...@hotmail.com; visho...@yahoo.com; visv...@hotmail.com; william...@jagannatha.com; windfl...@yahoo.com; W...@aol.com; Wooro...@aol.com; wzo...@yahoo.com; zon...@hotmail.com; pedro...@gmail.com; ange...@yahoo.com

[Alexandre Jablonski]

In addition to being used for making rum, sugar cane is apparently also used to make a wine-like beverage, sometimes called "sugar cane wine", or "sugar cane juice wine". Apparently in Angola, they call it, or a similarly-produced beverage, "lungwila". In Brazil they make a sugar-cane-based alcoholic beverage that they call "cachaça". Below is a quote from an article that I read about cachaça: "Technically, cachaça is similar to rum, but most rum is made from molasses, a byproduct of sugar processing, whereas cachaça is made with actual cane juice." The author of the article goes on to write the following, where he mentions sulfuric acid: "As we tasted, Antonio explained the differences between his family’s approach and that of the big distillers. 'Our fermentation takes 25 hours. The big producers ferment in 40 minutes. They use catalysts like sulfuric acid or fuba [a kind of corn powder] to speed fermentation'" Below is a quote from an Encarta article about ethanol, also mentioning sulfuric acid: "Ethanol can be produced by fermenting vegetable material that contains carbohydrates in the form of sugars or as starches that are turned into sugar by malting (allowing grains to sprout) or by adding chemicals such as sulfuric acid. The fermentation is performed by yeast and releases carbon dioxide. This process has been used since ancient times to make alcoholic beverages such as beer and wine from grains and fruits." Below are some quotes from the second edition (2003) of the book "Fermented Beverage Production", which mention sulfuric acid. Among other things, the book also mentions cachaça. The following pages of the book can browsed via Google books:  "Water, sulfuric acid, and ammonium sulphate are all raw materials which contribute to fermentation efficiencies, the amount and final quality of the distillates." (p. 280) (...) "The medium, molasses at 18 degrees Brix initially is sterilized by heating to and holding at 100 degrees Celsius, prior to inoculation. The molasses used is treated with sulfuric acid to reduce the pH between 4.5-4.8 which suppresses bacterial growth; while ammonium sulphate, a nitrogen source at 0.03-0.06 % w/v is added to stimulate yeast growth." (p. 269) (...) "Pretreatment of diluted molasses prior to fermentation requires the addition of ammonium sulphate (0.03-0.06 % w/v) as a nitrogen source and sulfuric acid (SG 1.83) to reduce the pH." (p. 270) This next quote, which is also mentions sulfuric acid, is form the book's chapter on cachaça, pisco and tequila: "Corrections of juice pH values from the normal 5,5 to 4,5 by adding sulphuric acid, and of the temperature to 30oC are also made to favor yeast action." (p. 337) The above quotes were from a recent book. Now for two excerpts from Johannes Rudolf Wagner's 1872 edition of "A Handbook of Chemical Technology", where he's discussing the production of alcoholic beverages in the West Indies: "By itself, the beet-root sugar molasses are difficult to ferment, but if the alkalinity of this material is first neutralized by the addition of some sulphuric acid, and the material next boiled with a further addition of acid for the purpose of converting the cane sugar it yet may happen to contain into inverted sugar, the fermentation may be readily set up and regularly proceed." (...) "The addition of sulphuric acid has not only the effect of converting the cane sugar into an easily fermentable sugar, but also prevents the setting up of lactic acid fermentation." (p. 430) All the best, Alex

--- On Thu, 7/30/09, Bhaktatraveler <bhaktat...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Yahoo! Canada Toolbar : Search from anywhere on the web and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now!

[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

OK. You got me there for sure, Bhakta Alex, Prabhu. Śrīla Prabhupāda was right and I was wrong!

But the other 2 still seem to be mistakes, no?

Like I said before, even the seeming mistakes are under Kṛṣṇa’s direct control in the case of the pure devotee, our beloved Śrīla Prabhupāda. Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa is very tricky.  :-)

I’m just afraid that someday, when the proof that they set foot on the moon back in 1969, is so incontrovertible that it can’t be ignored, that some devotees who didn’t keep an open mind on the subject may become discouraged.

BTW, all these years, I thought that Śrīla Prabhupāda was probably right about the moon landings being a hoax, but I always kept an open mind on the subject. Then NNV recommended watching that movie, The Disk, so I watched it. Even though it was just a movie “based on a true story,” I could understand from watching it that there was no possible way that the moon landings could have been hoaxed!

Your servant, Pratyatoṣa Dāsa

[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

Correction: The movie is called The Dish (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0205873/), not The Disk.

[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

---------- Forwarded (with permission) ----------
From: Willem
Date: Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 5:02 PM

Subject: Re: Proof That They Went to the Moon

To: Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com>

Pratyatosaji,

> Dear Varnadi Prabhu, there are quite a few websites which document the
> evidence that you are asking for. This one looks pretty good:
>
> http://www.ufos-aliens.co.uk/cosmicphotos.html

No evidence there, only massive speculations (and bad ones at that) by a
handful of amateur conspiracy theorists from the UK. Did you read their
"About Us" page?

Here are a couple of quotes from the page you sent me and my comments:

"Why is it that relatively few people have been allowed total access to
the massive NASA archives (photographs which are supposedly in the public
domain)."

NASA's image archive has been in the public domain for 40 years, open to
anyone. It has been online since the mid 90s. The entire Apollo archive
with high resolution scans from the 70 mm films can be found here:

http://www.apolloarchive.com/apollo_gallery.html

"Instead we have to make do with the two or three dozen 'reproductions'
that appear in the 'official' textbooks,"

Nope. The NASA image archives have a good 9,000 images available for free
online. Hardly a couple of dozen reproductions.

"despite literally millions of photographic images obtained by NASA.
Something is seriously amiss."

"Millions of photographs" is an unsubstantiated exaggeration, especially
without a further qualification of the topic of the photographs.

"Also the original photographs are huge (32"x24") so by the time they have
been reduced to fit the pages of a regular book the clarity and quality
reduced by the copying process make most of the images pretty meaningless.
In many cases, researchers are left with little more than 'smudges' and
'blurs'."

The size of the photographs is is a mute point, as it is limited by the
limits of 70 mm film.

"The REAL NASA MOON PHOTOS, for example show all kinds of structures,
seemingly both old and new, such as domes, pipelines, and even pyramids"

Really? And where can these "REAL NASA MOON PHOTOS" be found?

"Another NASA cover-up are the small cloud formations that have been
photographed above the Moon, again in a vacuum?"

Again, show me the photos. Isn't it curious that for all their claims they
offer no proof, or even a link to some follow up? How convenient.

Then they "analyze" a short exchange between astronauts Duke and Young and
conclude: "It is obvious that the astronauts are talking in code"

Obvious? Code? Why? Because they are clueless as to NASA protocols and the
history of the Apollo missions -- so they don't have any idea what
"Genesis Rock" refers to (Google it and you'll find out), or that EVA
stands for Extra Vehicular Activity, and that EMU stands for
Extravehicular Mobility Unit (the entire back pack), which includes a PLSS
(Portable Life Support System). Further on, names of craters and other
land markings become "codes" as do Alsep (Apollo Lunar Surface Experiments
Package) and LM (Lunar Module).

The they state: "Made by Harrison Schmitt, a trained geologist and the
only civilian ever to walk on the Moon (all the rest were military men..."

Wrong, Neil Armstrong, too, was a civilian.

Then follows more and more fragments of mission reports from which all
contexts is lost and a bunch of stuff which the authors themselves admit
cannout be authenticated. Towards the end is yet another gem that really
sums up the value of this site:

"Official NASA footage clearly shows an Apollo module taking off from the
lunar surface, evidently minus any conventional propulsion system?What you
see is a series of 'bolts' clamping the module to the Moon's surface
explode and the module simply floats up into space. Is this evidence of an
antigravity propulsion in use by 1969? Or simply a computer-simulated
take-off from Hollywood Studios?"

Duh... The Lunar Module used Aerozine 50 and dinitrogen tetroxide, which
ignite on contact and produce a nearly transparent exhaust. Amazing what a
bit of homework can do.

This is a crock-pot conspiracy web site, and a bit of Googling on bits and
pieces of the content shows that the content is not unique, whcih casts
doubt on where it originates from in the first place.

Anyway, all in all you answered my question on whether you actually did
your own research, or were just parotting stuff from some conspiracy web
sites. Clearly the latter.

> As for why they only went 6 times, why didn't they go more than 6 times?
> Maybe they were made to feel more and more unwelcome with each
> successive visit.

More realistically: cost and interest.

> Stories of space aliens are easy to cover up, because it's too fantastic
> for most people to accept, so the ones who do accept it usually keep
> their mouths shut.

Stories of space aliens are also very easy to fabricate. The number of
reliable accounts is almost negligable and is certainly taken serious. It
would also be easier to accept the stories if there would actually be more
proof other than anecdotal.

Ever watch "Monster Quest," "UFO Hunters," "Destination Truth" or "Ghost
Hunters" and wonder why *nothing is ever found*?

Hoping this meets you well and in the best of health,

Y.s. Varnadi das

[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

---------- Forwarded (with permission) ----------
From: Willem

Date: Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 12:53 PM

Subject: Re: Proof That They Went to the Moon
To: Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com>

> So you don't think that they saw anything unusual despite the

> astronaut's conversations

They most definitely saw unusual things, but the crux of the matter is the
context. For them, unusual meant anything that had not been encountered on
the preceding landings and research, or anything that would extoll the
expectations and prospects of the anticipated lunar environment.

So, finding crystallized formations on a rock in a place where they
expected only basalt was unusual and exciting, as was finding an all-metal
meteorite. Likewise, because of the lack of atmosphere and higher
curvature of the lunar horizon, most of the landscape appeared very
different than was so far known from earth. Particularly in distance and
size. So objects that appeared to be fairly small and close by often
turned out to be much further away and gigantic. A good example of that
is:

http://kuruvinda.com/img/apollo16/video/A16V1673855.ram

>despite the fact that Sadputa Prabhu thought that it was a possibility?

I knew Sadaputaji well. We spoke about this on several occasions. He was
not a confrontational kind of person and would often leave things proposed
by others up to "possible" if these were not rooted in sound and
verifiable science.

> What about Sadaputa's book, *Alien Identities*?

What about it?

Anyone who thinks that we are the only intelligent life form in a universe
with billions of galaxies that consist of billions of stars each does not
understand much of the world we live in. On the other hand, neither do the
ones that jump on every alien conspiracy theory that pops up on the
internet.

Intelligent life is certainly out there. Whether they visit the earth and
for what reason remains conjecture at best. We can reasonably assume that
in order to visit earth, such intelligent life would require means to span
multiple lightyears of distance in a reasonable and affordable way. If
they were of the destructive or conquering type, we would have found out
by now. If not, all we can do is guess about the possibilities.

Otherwise, there is no tangible proof beyond reasonable doubt for the
existence of alien visitors. Blurry pictures and video clips, unverifiable
reports, and anecdotal data do not constitute such proof -- especially
nowadays, when anyone and their uncle can mess around with pictures and
video on a computer. Happens all the time. Rosswell research has never
amounted to anything. The Sverdlovsk crash of 1969 turned out to be a
hoax. Etc. Etc.

Reports of verifiable and reliable sources (military, pilots, law
enforcement, etc.) do exist, but usually do not proof anything beyond the
fact that there was an encounter with a UFO. Exactly that: an Unidentified
Flying Object.

[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

Dear Prabhus, Hare Krishna! Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

When I was listening to one of his tapes recently, I heard Srila Prabhupada say, “Ferment molasses with sulphuric acid and then distill. It is wine, liquor.” Having made my own wine while in college, it sounded to me like a misunderstanding of the fermentation process which requires the addition of yeast, not sulphuric acid. I also recently heard a tape wherein Srila Prabhupada said, “You cannot live without air, even for three seconds,” which is certainly not true. He must have meant 3 minutes. Anyway, being the imperfect conditioned soul that I am, I put both statements into the same category, and I made my mistaken conception known to all of you in a way that is offensive to Srila Prabhupada (See below).

About the Molassis / sulphuric acid thing, As Bhakta Alex Prabhu and Mother Das Prabhu have pointed out (http://z.pe/g8x) in a way that is more kind than I deserve, it turned out that Srila Prabhupada was right and I was wrong. I am praying that Srila Prabhupada can forgive me for my unforgivable offense. I also humbly beg all of you to please at least consider forgiving me. I’m such an arrogant, puffed-up fool, and I deserve to be punished.

Does anyone have a suggestion as to what I might do to atone for this offense?

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa

---------- Forwarded message ----------

From: Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com>

Date: Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 5:22 AM
Subject: Re: Proof That They Went to the Moon

To:

It’s not that our beloved Spiritual Master, Srila Prabhupada never made any mistakes. For example:

http://z.pe/fBe

…and chemistry was supposed to be his expertise!  :-)

But this is what makes him even more dear to his loving disciples. It shows that he is also a tiny jiva soul, subject to the 4 defects. But if a tiny jiva soul can accomplish the incredibly great things that he did, then we should be encouraged that maybe we too can someday do something great for our Guru Maharaja!

In 1969, when I first met the devotees who had been with Srila Prabhupada at 26 2nd Avenue, they would joke about some of things that Srila Prabhupada said or did which were obviously mistakes, but they loved him very, very much. Even as a karmi I could sense their strong love for him. They were willing to do anything to serve him, and they were struggling very hard to try to please him by making the Washington D.C. temple a success.

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com>

Date: Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 11:12 AM
Subject: Re: Proof That They Went to the Moon

To:

[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

Reply from my wife (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urmila_Devi_Dasi), a member of the Sastric Advisory Council to the Governing Body Commission.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Urmila devi dasi/Dr. Edith Best
Date: Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 4:57 PM
Subject: Re: Proof That They Went to the Moon

To: Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com>

Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP wrote:

So just because Śrīla Prabhupāda says that we never went to the moon, or the largest woman's brain weights 36 ounces or WW3 will start very soon with a war between India and Pakistan doesn't necessarily mean that these things are true, right?

according to Prabhupada himself, yes, right.

On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 4:30 PM, Urmila devi dasi/Dr. Edith Best wrote:


    by "mistake" sastra and Prabhupada do NOT mean saying "3 seconds"
   instead of "3 minutes".  This letter to Atreya Rsi 

   is a VERY important instruction in this regard:

My Dear Atreya Rsi,

Please accept my blessings. I am in due receipt of your very nice letter of January 10, 1972, and I am very much pleased by the sentiments expressed therein. It is not so much that because there may be some faults in our godbrothers and godsisters, or because there may be some mismanagement or lack of cooperation, that this is due to being impersonalists, no. It is the nature of the living condition to always have some fault. Even in the Spiritual World there is some fault and envy—sometimes the Gopis will quarrel over Krishna's favor, and once Krishna was so much attracted to Radharani that by mistake he tried to milk the bull instead of the cow, and sometimes when the Gopis used to put on their dress and make-up for seeing Krishna, they would be too much hasty and smear kumkum and mascara in the wrong places and their ornaments and dresses would appear as if small children had been trying to dress themselves and they were not very expert, like that. There are so many examples. But it is not the same as material fault or material envy, it is transcendental because it is all based on Krishna. Sometimes when one Gopi would serve Krishna very nicely, the others would say, Oh, she has done so nicely, now let me do better for pleasing Krishna. That is envy, but it is transcendental, without malice. So we shall not expect that anywhere there is any Utopia. Rather, that is impersonalism. People should not expect that even in the Krishna Consciousness Society there will be Utopia. Because devotees are persons, therefore there will always be some lacking—but the difference is that their lacking, because they have given up everything to serve Krishna—money, jobs, reputation, wealth, big educations, everything—their lackings have become transcendental because, despite everything they may do, their topmost intention is to serve Krishna. "One who is engaged in devotional service, despite the most abominable action, is to be considered saintly because he is rightly situated.'' The devotees of Krishna are the most exalted persons on this planet, better than kings, all of them, so we should always remember that and, like the bumblebee, always look for the nectar or the best qualities of a person. Not like the utopians, who are like the flies who always go to the open sores or find the faults in a person, and because they cannot find any utopia, or because they cannot find anyone without faults, they want to become void, merge, nothing—they think that is utopia, to become void of personality. So if there is sometimes slight disagreements between devotees, it is not due to impersonalism, but it is because they are persons, and such disagreements should not be taken very seriously. The devotee is always pessimistic about the material world, but he is very optimistic about the spiritual life; so in this way, you should consider that anyone engaged in Krishna's service is always the best person. (http://prabhupadabooks.com/?g=169755)

   by "mistake" we mean doing something sinful or displeasing to Krishna

   "in this mantra of Sri Isopanisad, the devotee prays to the Lord
   to rectify him from within his heart. To err is human. A
   conditioned soul is very often apt to commit mistakes, and the
   only remedial measure to take against such unintentional sins is
   to give oneself up to the lotus feet of the Lord so that He may
   guide one to avoid such pitfalls."
   purport Iso mantra 18

   Prabhupada, like all liberated souls, never makes a mistake in the
   sense that he never commits an unintentional sin. Even Krishna
   makes a mistake of trying to milk a bull when He sees Radharani.

   If we think that liberated souls do not make the ordinary kind of
   mistakes, then we are not following Prabhupada's own instructions
   in this matter.

 

[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Urmila devi dasi/Dr. Edith Best
Date: Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 7:32 PM
Subject: Re: Fwd: Proof That They Went to the Moon
To: Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com>


Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP wrote:

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: *Greg Jay*
Date: Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 7:13 PM
Subject: Re: Proof That They Went to the Moon

To: Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com <mailto:praty...@gmail.com>>
Cc:


PAMHO AGTSP

On Jul 31, 2009, at 11:46 AM, Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP wrote:

   by "mistake" we mean doing something sinful or displeasing to Krishna

      "in this mantra of Sri Isopanisad, the devotee prays to the Lord
      to rectify him from within his heart. To err is human. A
      conditioned soul is very often apt to commit mistakes, and the
      only remedial measure to take against such unintentional sins is
      to give oneself up to the lotus feet of the Lord so that He may
      guide one to avoid such pitfalls."
      purport Iso mantra 18

      Prabhupada, like all liberated souls, never makes a mistake in the
      sense that he never commits an unintentional sin. Even Krishna
      makes a mistake of trying to milk a bull when He sees Radharani.

      If we think that liberated souls do not make the ordinary kind of
      mistakes, then we are not following Prabhupada's own instructions
      in this matter.

I really, really do not understand what you are saying. You say:

   Prabhupada, like all liberated souls, never makes a mistake in the
      sense that he never commits an unintentional sin.

DON'T you mean INTENTIONAL sin NOT UNINTENTIONAL sin????

Are you saying that Prabhupada committed INTENTIONAL sins or mistakes????

of course not. Pure devotees never commit intentional sins by definition.

This quote and point is in regard to saying that liberated souls are above cheating, mistakes, illusion, and imperfect senses. The point is that "mistake" in this connection means an unintentional sin. Mistake does not mean saying "New Virginia" or quoting the a verse wrong. It means an unintentional sins.

[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

Gaura Keshava Prabhu, please work it out privately with my wife, and when you both agree on a statement, then I’ll post it. Either that or both of you please join http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi, but no ṛtvik bashing, please.

It seems like it just a dispute over a minor detail.

Your servant, Pratyatoṣa Dāsa, Moderator

On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 7:52 PM, Greg Jay <jay....@gmail.com> wrote:

PAMHO AGTSP

On Jul 31, 2009, at 1:38 PM, Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP wrote:

This quote and point is in regard to saying that liberated souls are above cheating, mistakes, illusion, and imperfect senses. The point is that "mistake" in this connection means an unintentional sin. Mistake does not mean saying "New Virginia" or quoting a verse wrong. It means an unintentional sins.

These things are what we call unintentional mistakes. If you want to rewrite the dictionary then you have to explain why such "things" (commonly called unintentional mistakes) happen.

OK, all you are doing is changing the definition of mistake (although it's clear in the sanskrit). OK, so in the normal sense of an unintentional mistake you are saying that pure devotees do make such mistakes.

I agree.

This is due to them being situated in a material body and not having perfect senses. If their senses were perfect then they would not make such mistakes. If they insist on such mistaken ideas being absolute truth then that is not only an illusion but also cheating if taught to others.

Again I don't see how this differs from ordinary conditioned souls.

It's not necessarily sinful because it's not done out of malice but so what?

Please explain?

GKD

[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 8:14 PM, Greg Jay <jay....@gmail.com> wrote:

PAMHO AGTSP

It seems I'm banned again from ISTAGOSTHI as I am receiving emails from that group stating that I don't have privileges to make postings. So why would you suggest I join?

Non-members are no longer allowed to post, but anyone can join instantly. No approval needed.

On Jul 31, 2009, at 2:05 PM, Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP wrote:

Gaura Keshava Prabhu, please work it out privately with my wife, and when you both agree on a statement, then I’ll post it. Either that or both of you please join http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi, but no ṛtvik bashing, please.

It seems like it just a dispute over a minor detail.

Not really. To me it's minor but it seems none of you can admit that Prabhupada made unintentional mistakes. So I would say that is major.

I agree. It's obvious to anyone whose a little bit honest. But I feel that even when he made material mistakes, Krishna had a reason for allowing it to happen.

GKD

[Alexandre Jablonski]

"Even though the Apollo moon missions involved thousands of NASA employees, in 40 years, even on their deathbeds, not one former NASA employee has come forward to say that there was any kind of moon landing hoax." For anyone who might be interested, below is a link to a video (approximately 10 minutes long) mentioning the death of astronaut Virgil "Gus" Grissom. The narrator in the video asserts that Gus' family believes that Gus' death wasn't accidental. The video includes clips from interviews with Gus' son and widow, as well some stuff about Thomas Ronald Baron, and about Baron's death. According to the narrator of the video, Baron had testified before congress that Apollo program was in such disarray that the United States would never make it to the moon. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0p7JvhNtV8 Below is an excerpt from a conversation between Srila Prabhupada and Tamal Krsna, that I found interesting to consider in connection with things such as the above. Srila Prabhupada: ...sinful. And for this bluffing, they have spent millions, er, billions of...  Tamala Krsna: It said thirty billion dollars just for that one episode. In the article the man says that many Americans already feel the same way he does, that it's a bluff.  Srila Prabhupada: From the very beginning I have said it is childish, 1958. I am not scientist. I have no... No, there are so many incidences. I never agreed, "It may be they have gone." They did not go.  Tamala Krsna: He has very elaborately described how they faked everything. He gave in great detail how each part of the hoax was perpetrated. The thing is...  Srila Prabhupada: The Apollo, they were dying. They prayed to God. This is also artificial. Hm? Tamala Krsna: Our conclusion was that those three men who died were killed, that they never knew that there was a hoax while they were in training. Then, at the time when the spacecraft was going to take off they were told, "Now you're not going anywhere. This is only a hoax, so you have to act like this," and probably they did not want to. They refused. Therefore they were killed. We were discussing this yesterday, Gargamuni, Sridhara Maharaja, Bali-mardana and myself. That was our conclusion, that those men must have been killed by the government.  Srila Prabhupada: Otherwise they'll disclose. Tamala Krsna: Yes. And thereafter no one else died. After that, others did not die, probably because they were told that "Don't you do the same thing or you'll meet with the same fate. Unless you toe the line and... Then you will also be dealt with very severely." Because they're such big cheaters, they will not stop at anything. Killing to them is nothing.  Srila Prabhupada: Killing affair should not be regarded, criminal affair.  Tamala Krsna: No.  Srial Prabhupada: They can kill even the president. Because they are meat-eaters, there is no mercy. What is mercy, they do not know. Vina pasu-ghnat. Pasu-ghna. Mercilessly they kill animals, and they become accustomed to merciless... (Morning Conversation, April 23rd, 1977, Bombay) Below is Wikipedia article that I found interesting, on the topic of "compartmentalization of information", which may also be something worth taking into consideration. "In matters concerning intelligence, whether public or private sector, compartmentalization of information means to limit access to information to persons who directly need to know such information in order to perform certain tasks. "The basis for compartmentalization is that if fewer people know the details of a mission or task, the risk or likelihood that such information could be compromised or fall into the hands of the opposition is decreased. Hence, varying levels of clearance within organizations exist. Yet, even if someone has the highest clearance, certain 'eyes only' information may still be restricted to certain operators, even of lower rank. In intelligence administration, officials believe it is useful to keep close watch on 'sources and methods' information[1] to prevent disclosure of people and their activities, whose lives they may believe to be at risk if such information were publicly disclosed or fall into the hands of the opposition. "In May of 2008, former Military Intelligence Sergeant Adrienne Kinne, who had served for ten years, from 1994 to 2004, and was active in the Iraq war, explained how compartmentalization worked to facilitate the wiretapping she participated in. She stated: "'When this was going on, I had absolutely no idea what was going on in the rest of the military intelligence, the rest of our government. Everything is so compartmentalized that you don’t really know necessarily what the person next to you is doing, let alone in a different room in a different building in a different location. And so, it really wasn’t until the New York Times piece came out about the NSA’s domestic wiretapping that I really began to think about what we were doing and my mission and that we were collecting on Americans. And we were doing so for the flimsiest of reasons.' All the best, Alex

[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

I see a pattern emerging here. The devotees who are in favor of ṛtvik initiations within ISKCON (and I am one of them) are taking a cue from Purañjana Prabhu, and are willing to lie and/or exaggerate if it seems to strengthen our case, even if it makes us look like completely neophyte, crazy idiots. Saying that Śṛīla Prabhupāda never makes any material mistakes seems to strengthen our case for ṛtvik initiations on the surface, but it actually weakens our case because it makes us look really, really stupid! Like my good wife pointed out, it even goes against Śrīla Prabhupāda’s own teachings!

Maybe Virgil “Gus” Grissom was simply an out of control fault finding pessimist who was out of touch with reality.

Your servant, Pratyatoṣa Dāsa

[Alexandre Jablonski]

Yes, one possibility is that Gus was an "out of control fault finding pessimist who was out of touch with reality", to borrow your phrase. An alternate possibility is that he was a person with considerable experience, expressing opinions grounded in that experience. There are many different possibilities. For anyone, who might be interested to learn a bit more about Gus, his experience, his awards and honors, and his background, below is a link to a Wikipedia page about him: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gus_Grissom

--- On Sat, 8/1/09, Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Proof That They Went to the Moon

---

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[Ameyatma das (ACBSP)]

Urdhvaga Prabhu

I have been purposefully staying out of the argument,  one, i don't have the time,   and second, the moderator was accusing us of being embarrassments to Srila Prabhupad and not having an open mind, when i see that it is he whose mind is closed tight on this topic.  He admits that parts may have been faked,   but insists they actually went to the moon,   and then says he thinks they faked parts of it because they ran into aliens and large alien craft.    He can rattle on in his own mind all he wants,   but,  since this idea did not come from SP, i find no taste to argue over a dead horse. 

One way or the other,   they never went to the moon.  Neither can they ever go to the moon by vimana - via material machines - without the proper karma -  without a moon body or celestial senses they will only see barren rocks -  no trees, no water falls, no palaces  -  thus,   it is impossible for them to actually go to the real moon planet (which is the planet of Indra) via their mechanical endeavors alone.  That is the conclusion of guru and shastra.   Whether some material craft traveled to the planet of barren rocks, as i wrote in my Moonshadows article many times, i clearly stated that ultimately i do not know if they did or not.  That is my open mind, and my honest ultimate view,   i really do not know one way or the other.

But, i do not take such open mind when it comes to the words emanating from the lotus mouth of Srila ACBS Prabhupad. 

Urdhvaga recited the snake is a rope incident,   and then says:

<< Once in Los Angeles, 2 disciples approached Srila Prabhupada in his room, with a challenging mood. They brought up some seemingly material contradictions in the Krsna book, saying these things were impossible. Srila Prabhupada told them [if memory serves] that they could leave, because they were without a guru as of that moment. This was a severe case of flunking the contradiction test. This is where pride and material logic can get a careless devotee in very deep trouble.

I have heard that Sri Madvacharya once said that Lord Krsna purposely puts little contradictions into the sastra, just to facilitate doubting souls who are looking for holes in the philosophy, to give a little fodder to bolster their atheist mentalities. The Bhagvad Gita states that Lord Krsna knows what desires are in the hearts of the jiva, and facilitates that desire. If someone wants to doubt Krsna, then Krsna will help him do that, will direct him within the heart to focus on contradictory glitches in sastra, so that he can fulfill his doubt, so he can justify material desires.>>

I also heard a similar story.    I had not heard it in relation to Madvacharya, but, well,   here is what i heard -  this was back around the end of 73,  at least when Nitai was still Prabhupad's servant.  Ramesvar had me engaged in doing service in the Sankirtan Book room in the morning.  Some senior devotees,  I can't recall who they all were, but about 6-8 men, came to the Sankirtan room to have a private talk with Nitai, who was expressing serious doubts about SP's authority.   They chose the Sankirtan room for privacy,   but, did not ask me to leave, so I over heard their discussion.  Nitai was disturbed over the idea that Srila Prabhupad was insisting that the Sun was closer to the Earth then the Moon.  SP insisted in all cultures Sunday comes first, then Monday,   and gave this as supporting evidence that the Sun comes first because it is closer.  Nitai was openly questioning SP's authority.   I don't recall who the others were who were discussing with him,   I vaguely recall Karandhar was there,  Ramesvar, maybe Tamal and some others,  I think Revatinandan also.  

Nitai said that he directly told SP of his loss of faith in him,  his doubt over this that was eating him up.   Nitai said that Srila Prabhupad told him that some times Guru will say something that is materially not true,   so as to test his disciple, and gave the story of Madhavendra Puri and the rope is a snake example.   Then, Nitai said that Srila Prabhupad said Krsna also has done this,   that he has purposefully put a few things here and there in Shastra that are materially incorrect.  That Krsna and Guru purposefully do this as a way of Testing the Faith of the disciple.      Ishvar Puri passed the test of faith,  in that whatever his guru said,  he pushed aside what his own senses told him,  pushed aside all material vision, mundane reasoning,    and with full faith accepted his guru's words over that of his own mind and senses.  Ishvar Puri was tested and passed the test of faith.   Srila Prabhupad said that Krishna has done the same thing here and there in shastra.  We must have such strong faith that we accept,   even if it seems materially wrong.   

Srila Prabhupad exhibited this faith in propounding the idea of the Sun is closer then the Moon.   Our material senses,   material instruments and means to measure may all tell us guru and shastra is wrong,    in a test of our faith, we accept Guru and Shastra and reject our mind, senses, and common reason and logic.   At this point, it is our faith that Krishna wants to see,  not so called material intelligence.   

The problem was,   even after Srila Prabhupad told Nitai this,  he continued to doubt SP's authority and knowledge and realizations.   He lost faith in his guru maharaj.  I recall the end of that meeting was that Nitai left still doubting SP's authority,  and he left SP shortly after this. 

Prabhupad also said that one early devotee, Krishna das,  whom I think Srila Prabhupad appointed on the original GBC,    he left KC because of SP's insistence that we did not go to the moon.  Krishna das argued,  it is there, on TV,   (arguing that the TV is the truth, it does not lie),    how can SP say it was faked?   SP loved this devotee and had made him GBC,     but,   even though Krishna das was leaving,  had lost his faith,  Prabhupad did not back down on his view that the moon landing was faked.

ys ameyatma das

[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

Outside of ISKCON, you can be a guru and accept disciples all that you want. To do so is the inherent right of all of Śrīla Prabhupāda’s disciples. Initiation by ṛtviks is Śrīla Prabhupāda’s prescription for his own institution, and he has every right to make that prescription. If I started my own institution, however, Śrīla Prabhupāda would be the only initiating guru.

I think that “Sixteen Points to Consider Regarding the Ṛtvik Issue” makes a pretty good case in favor of a ṛtvik system of initiations within ISKCON without having to resort to lying or exaggerating.

Your servant, Pratyatoṣa Dāsa

On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 2:00 PM, Greg Jay <jay....@gmail.com> wrote:

PAMHO AGTSP

On Aug 1, 2009, at 1:34 AM, Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP wrote:

I see a pattern emerging here. The devotees who are in favor of ṛtvik initiations within ISKCON (and I am one of them) are taking a cue from Purañjana Prabhu, and are willing to lie and/or exaggerate if it seems to strengthen our case, even if it makes us look like completely neophyte, crazy idiots.

Not that I accept rtvikism however lying and exaggerating will never help to prove a doctrinal point. I suggest you stop it. Better to concentrate on the weak aspects of the GBC which is of course their appointment system which is completely bogus.

Saying that Śṛīla Prabhupāda never makes any material mistakes seems to strengthen our case for ṛtvik initiations on the surface, but it actually weakens our case because it makes us look really, really stupid! Like my good wife pointed out, it even goes against Śrīla Prabhupāda’s own teachings!

The interesting point is that if we accept that Prabhupada can make these small unintentional mistakes then we have to also accept that other bonafide gurus can too. Therefore the rtvik idea that any bonafide guru must be perfect is defeated.

ys

GKD

[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

Dear Ameyātmā Prabhu, Hare Kṛṣṇa! Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Śṛīla Prabhupāda!

The only things that I’ve seen that appeared to be faked were a few pictures and videos, but that might have been done for the purpose of exaggerating the truth for propaganda reasons or for hiding alien encounters. Therefore, it doesn't prove anything.

Don't you believe that some UFO sightings are real alien encounters?

If Śrīla Prabhupāda never made any unintentional mistakes, then why did he say, over and over again, over a 4 year period, that the maximum brain weight for a woman is 34 or 36 ounces, which is even below the average brain weight of a woman? Why did he call “New Vrindaban,” “New Virginia” one time? Why did he say that you can only live for 3 seconds without air?

Isn’t it hypocritical to say that, “I believe whatever Śrīla Prabhupāda says,” and then to simply ignore his instruction to send our children to gurukula, and his statement that public schools are slaughter houses? Isn’t it hypocritical to say that, “I believe whatever Śrīla Prabhupāda says,” and then to simply ignore his instruction that all of our printed publications should include the Sanskrit diacritics?

Your servant, Pratyatoṣa Dāsa

[Greg Jay]

On Aug 1, 2009, at 8:47 AM, Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP wrote:

Outside of ISKCON, you can be a guru and accept disciples all that you want. To do so is the inherent right of all of Śrīla Prabhupāda’s disciples. Initiation by ṛtviks is Śrīla Prabhupāda’s prescription for his own institution, and he has every right to make that prescription. If I started my own institution, however, Śrīla Prabhupāda would be the only initiating guru.

I think that “Sixteen Points to Consider Regarding the Ṛtvik Issue” makes a pretty good case in favor of a ṛtvik system of initiations within ISKCON without having to resort to lying or exaggerating.

Your conclusion is that everything is clear. But the FACT OF THE MATTER is that it is not clear. You should learn to deal with facts not fiction.

If everything was so clear to the GBC, Tamal, Hansadutta, etc, then they would never have done what they all did (despite what Hansadutta now says).

The real problem with accepting the July 9th letter and ONLY the July 9th letter over everything else is that if it were actually meant as a system forever it would have included a provision for making more rtviks (which it does not). One has to extrapolate and speculate from other conversations that this can be done by the GBC. If and when one therefore accepts the GBC that Prabhupada himself put in charge of this process one has to accept their orders on this subject. Since they were the one's charged with running ISKCON they have the authority given by Prabhupada and not others. Thus they have done it the way they understood it, which Srila Prabhupada wanted.

ys

GKD

[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

My wife has asked me not to forward any more emails to her on this subject. She is very busy writing gurukula curriculum.

---------- Forwarded (with permission) ----------

From: Urmila devi dasi/Dr. Edith Best

Date: Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 9:04 PM

Subject: Re: Proof That They Went to the Moon

To: Greg Jay <jay....@gmail.com>
Cc: Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com>


It's as if you don't understand what the original problem was.

the original problem was that my husband said Prabhupada had said something incorrect. He was then criticized for having said that Prabhupada made a mistake, since liberated souls do not make mistakes. I then pointed out that "mistake" in the context of the four defects of a conditioned soul means "unintentional sin" according to Prabhupada's purport to Isopanisad Mantra 18.

I agree that Prabhupada certainly did things that according to the ordinary dictionary are mistakes. He said that we should expect that all living beings make those types of mistakes, liberated or not. Mistakes, as far as I know, are generally unintentional by definition.

The fact that Prabhupada uses the word "mistake" in regards to the four defects in an unusual way has certainly caused confusion.He seems to use the same word in different ways in different contexts.

I don't think I have anything further to say on this topic.

Ys, Udd

[Greg Jay]

PAMHO AGTSP

It's alright. I discussed it further with her. We agree.

ys

GKD

[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

Srila Prabhupada did make it extremely clear. The July 9th letter was obviously the formal answer to the May 28th question, "Then our next question concerns initiations in the future, particularly at that time when you are no longer with us. We want to know how first and second initiations will be conducted."

He didn't push the "rtvik initiations henceforward" program as much as he could have because he didn't want the small number of his disciples who were both qualified and willing to be on the GBC to give up their service. He knew that they wanted to be regular gurus.

One reason for their desire to be regular gurus was that they thought that they would then be able to wield the power that they needed to reign in rebellious temple presidents and other godbrothers. In other words, they thought that they had a better idea than Srila Prabhupada's rtvik system. Time is showing us more and more that Srila Prabhupada's system is superior. This is currently being demonstrated by the success of ISKCON Bangalore vs. the decline of ISKCON as a whole.

"No provision for adding more Rtviks," was obviously an oversight, but you want your cake and eat it too. First you say that Srila Prabhupada made some mistakes. Then you say that the fact that there is an oversight in the July 9th letter means that we can disregard the entire letter because it is not perfect. Therefore, you are contradicting yourself.

Where is the precedent in Vaisnava history, except for the GM concoction which Srila Prabhupada strongly condemned, for there to be more than one Acharya within a single organization? There is none. It's simply common sense that there should only be one Acharya / Initiating Spiritual Master within ISKCON. Otherwise there is endless conflict.

Your servant, Pratyatoṣa Dāsa

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[Greg Jay]

On Aug 2, 2009, at 2:57 AM, Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP wrote:

Srila Prabhupada did make it extremely clear. The July 9th letter was obviously the formal answer to the May 28th question, "Then our next question concerns initiations in the future, particularly at that time when you are no longer with us. We want to know how first and second initiations will be conducted."

So clear in fact that the July 9th letter never mentions anything about "at that time when you are no longer with us". This is exactly what I am saying. If it were to be for all time, it would have clearly stated it. It didn't.

Either Prabhupada made a mistake by not mentioning that or he trusted the GBC to deal with it later. They did. But you don't accept their authority given by Prabhupada.

He didn't push the "rtvik initiations henceforward" program as much as he could have because he didn't want the small number of his disciples who were both qualified and willing to be on the GBC to give up their service. He knew that they wanted to be regular gurus.

Total speculation! This idea is another conspiracy theory. There is no proof that Prabhupada didn't push "eternal rtvikism" because of anything. If you agree he didn't push it then you must agree that he didn't want it. When someone is leaving this world they make clear what they want. If you say he didn't push "eternal rtvikism" at that time then it means he didn't want it. When was he going to push it, later??????

One reason for their desire to be regular gurus was that they thought that they would then be able to wield the power that they needed to reign in rebellious temple presidents and other godbrothers.

They were already GBCs for many years, they were already the leaders, they already had the power, they already also had the will naming them ultimate managerial authority. So to speculate that they needed to be gurus to have more power is ludicrous.

In other words, they thought that they had a better idea than Srila Prabhupada's rtvik system.

Actually they correctly understood that rtvikism was simply a temporary arrangement while Srila Prabhupada was sick. He got sick, they went to him and asked what to do, he told them, then later he said "Now I stop this initiation. Is it alright? Because it's not good in this condiction." Why? The guru takes responsibility for the disciple. He no longer wanted to take on more burdensome disciples. And he also said that he would start again if he recovered. He never recovered and so never started giving diksha again. Simple.

Time is showing us more and more that Srila Prabhupada's system is superior.

But this was not his system. His rtvik system was to have rtviks or assistants while he was sick or unable to travel to a particular place. Not to replace the guruparampara system or to take the burden of unlimited disciples forever. It is an offense to take too many disciples. Unlimited is certainly too many.

This is currently being demonstrated by the success of ISKCON Bangalore vs. the decline of ISKCON as a whole.

ISKCON Bangalore's success is due to Madhupandit being an expert preacher and businessman. He was successful even before he was a rtvik. I know I was there. Unlike others I have great respect for his preaching. But it certainly was not because of rtvikism.

"No provision for adding more Rtviks," was obviously an oversight, but you want your cake and eat it too.

If you think that Prabhupada would make such a huge mistake at the end of his life then you are mistaken. Surely he did not make such a huge mistake. You are the one now saying that he made a mistake in the July 9th letter. If this is what you believe then how can you cling to it as your only direction, without understanding Prabhupada's teachings as a whole.

First you say that Srila Prabhupada made some mistakes.

No, actually you started that. I said that if he made small unintentional mistakes on material subjects it was OK. I never said that I thought he made mistakes about spiritual issues. Again you do not grasp the difference.

Then you say that the fact that there is an oversight in the July 9th letter means that we can disregard the entire letter because it is not perfect.

The letter is perfect. It just does not contain any provision about after his death. That is perfect. That's exactly as it should be according to sastra and Prabhupada's teachings.

Where is the precedent in Vaisnava history, except for the GM concoction which Srila Prabhupada strongly condemned, for there to be more than one Acharya within a single organization? There is none.

The Visva Vaisnava Rajya Sabha was founded by the Goswamis of Vrndavan. Many of them were gurus in their own rights. However if you want to make a point with this argument you have to show how it relates to the idea of rtviks and regular gurus. This argument is besides the point. You think that ISKCON is so unique. But this only shows your ignorance of Vaisnava history.

It's simply common sense that there should only be one Acharya / Initiating Spiritual Master within ISKCON. Otherwise there is endless conflict.

This is speculation. If this were what Prabhupada wanted then he would have clearly stated it. He didn't. In fact he made statements that he wanted all his disciples to become gurus. Do you think he wanted all his disciples to leave ISKCON and start their own movements? Clearly not. As late as 1975 he was writing that anyone who passed Bhaktivedanta exams would be allowed to make their own disciples (his granddisciples). If he was considering this in 1975 it means that it is not unbonafide. Otherwise you must be saying that Prabhupada was considering something that was unbonafide. Are you?

I'm not saying that the GBC system of appointing gurus is correct. Their understanding of the position of the guru in regards to his disciples is also incorrect. Even their idea that diksha and siksha gurus are not equal is incorrect. But they are correct on one thing. If one is sincere Krsna will send a bonafide guru physically to you, for you to take diksha mantras from. There is no precedent for taking diksha from a previous acharya. Otherwise very simply we could all just forget about gurus and take diksha directly from Krsna. Why have an intermediary at all? The neophyte devotee needs to have personal guidance. He can get that only from personal siksha and diksha gurus.

ys

GKD

[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

Prabhupada: In reply to Jayadvaita’s questions, henceforward the policy for using diacritic markings is that I want them used everywhere, on large books, small books and also BTG. If there is any difficulty with the pronunciation, then after the correct diacritic spelling, in brackets the words “pronounced as _’’, may be written. So even on covers the diacritic markings should be used. We should not have to reduce our standard on account of the ignorant masses. Diacritic spelling is accepted internationally, and no learned person will even care to read our books unless this system is maintained. (Letter to Jadurani, 31 December, 1971)

What it all boils down to is, “What does Srila Prabhupada mean when he uses the word, henceforward?” According to you, we should have stopped using the Sanskrit diacritics in Srila Prabhupada’s books and in BTG on November 14th, 1977, right?

It’s obvious that the GBC interpreted the word henceforward in one way for the above and in a different way for the July 9th letter without any rational reason for making such a discrimination. By henceforward, Srila Prabhupada always meant the dictionary definition, “from this point forward.”

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa

[Alexandre Jablonski]

For anyone who might be interested, below is a link to a neat little 10-minute video about radio telemetry and the Apollo missions. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqkkGd8M0Y8 The video features discussion about the frequencies used by radio HAM operators, and a clip from an interview with Frank Byrne. Below is some background on Byrne, taken from a chapter entitled "The Evolution of Automated Launch Processing" in the "Encyclopedia of Computer Science and Technology". "Launch processing and mission control prior to the Kennedy developments were based on using a minimum number of mainframe computers. Frank Byrne had the technical vision to develop a distributed computing system, in which dozens of small computers would do the checkout functions." (p. 225) (...) "Frank Byrne, who was involved in the planning for the Processing System from the start, took on the job of designing a device to keep track of commonly needed data that also made it possible for the various computers to communicate with each other." (p. 229) I understand that not everyone has time or interest to explore this topic, but for those who do, below are links to an 11-part video documentary about Gus Grissom's involvement in the Apollo program, his stance on it, and his death in the context of Apollo 1. I found it quite interesting to watch, especially in light of the morning conversation with Srila Prabhupada, from April 23rd, 1977, in Bombay. The documentary is about two hours of video, and is put together by Jarrah White. To lead in to the videos, I wanted to include the following two quotes from the Wikipedia article about Apollo 1: "Grissom even famously took a lemon from a tree by his house, telling his wife Betty, 'I'm going to hang it on that spacecraft'" (...) "There were also faulty communications between the crew, the control room, the operations and checkout building and the complex 34 blockhouse. 'How are we going to get to the moon if we can't talk between three buildings?' Grissom complained in frustration over the communication loop." Ok, here are the links to the documentary. Most parts are about 10 minutes long. Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7D3o1htlz9c Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WpGbGnk574 Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uqi_up7D_nk Part 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ke6aNkI7mJ4 Part 5 (includes an excerpt from a 1998 interview with 73-year old Joseph Shea, Apollo Spacecraft Project Manager): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvC974jXV8k Part 6 (includes a mention of Thomas Ronald Baron, a North American Aviation safety inspector): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzrTXCe8qKI Part 7 (includes an audio clip of an exchange between Joe Rogan and Phil Plait, as well as audio transmission from inside the Apollo 1 capsule during the start of the fire): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oZ-clvq7ZY Part 8: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zekZklF3ZWA Part 9: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F85wnF0rGS4 Part 10 (includes a discussion of an often-quoted Grissom line): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0iCpIxU3xE Part 11 (includes a mention of Scott Grissom, Gus's son, who apparently believes that his father's craft was sabotaged, so as to deliberately trigger a spark in the oxygen-rich environment): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMjMCufj4xk Thanks for reading, and all the best,

Alex   --- On Sat, 8/1/09, Alexandre Jablonski <alexandre...@yahoo.ca> wrote:

From: Alexandre Jablonski <alexandre...@yahoo.ca> Subject: Re: Proof That They Went to the Moon

To: istag...@googlegroups.com Received: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 7:51 AM

Yes, one possibility is that Gus was an "out of control fault finding pessimist who was out of touch with reality", to borrow your phrase. An alternate possibility is that he was a person with considerable experience, expressing opinions grounded in that experience. There are many different possibilities. For anyone, who might be interested to learn a bit more about Gus, his experience, his awards and honors, and his background, below is a link to a Wikipedia page about him: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gus_Grissom --- On Sat, 8/1/09, Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com>

Subject: Re: Proof That They Went to the Moon

To: aabha...@gmail.com, abhaya_m...@yahoo.com, adik...@gmail.com, anad...@yahoo.com, angin...@yahoo.com, ann.tr...@gmail.com, aryaan...@yahoo.com, basugh...@gmail.com, bhag...@hotmail.com, bhoj...@yahoo.com, bvsa...@gmail.com, compo...@yahoo.com, david...@dslextreme.com, d...@southwind.net, doro...@dslextreme.com, dway...@yahoo.com, ene...@dslextreme.com, esw...@sbcglobal.net, fallenf...@yahoo.com, fmor...@dharmacentral.com, frank-...@hotmail.com, gaura...@gmail.com, gerisch...@yahoo.com, gregpr...@yahoo.com, gururagh...@yahoo.com, guruva...@yahoo.com, hms...@yahoo.com, in...@farmeducation.org, istag...@googlegroups.com, james...@email.com, jay....@gmail.com, jgc...@yahoo.com, jiva...@yahoo.com, kanhaiya...@hotmail.com, krishna...@yahoo.com, krsna...@yahoo.com, lak...@webtv.net, law...@juno.com, madh...@yahoo.com, mahar...@hotmail.com, mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk, meiz...@yahoo.com, messenger...@yahoo.com, mgr...@sbcglobal.net, mitche...@netzero.net, mrs...@verizon.net, mystiq...@yahoo.com, newlife...@yahoo.com, ne...@srilaprabhupada.com, nihar_...@yahoo.com, nimai...@gmail.com, orland...@gmail.com, pedro...@gmail.com, pg1...@netzero.com, raghu...@rogers.com, rainbo...@yahoo.com, ram...@aol.com, ramar...@yahoo.com, ramr...@aol.com, remote....@gmail.com, rosemar...@netzero.com, royalt...@yahoo.com, royric...@yahoo.com, sansk...@gmail.com, she_ra_ven...@yahoo.com, shutup...@hotmail.com, stevie...@gmail.com, sunand...@hotmail.com, taru...@yahoo.com, trini...@aol.com, urdh...@aol.com, vibh...@yahoo.com, vidu...@hotmail.com, visho...@yahoo.com, visv...@hotmail.com, william...@jagannatha.com, windfl...@yahoo.com, w...@aol.com, wooro...@aol.com, wzo...@yahoo.com Received: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 7:34 AM

I see a pattern emerging here. The devotees who are in favor of ṛtvik initiations within ISKCON (and I am one of them) are taking a cue from Purañjana Prabhu, and are willing to lie and/or exaggerate if it seems to strengthen our case, even if it makes us look like completely neophyte, crazy idiots. Saying that Śṛīla Prabhupāda never makes any material mistakes seems to strengthen our case for ṛtvik initiations on the surface, but it actually weakens our case because it makes us look really, really stupid! Like my good wife pointed out, it even goes against Śrīla Prabhupāda’s own teachings! Maybe Virgil “Gus” Grissom was simply an out of control fault finding pessimist who was out of touch with reality.

Your servant, Pratyatoṣa Dāsa

On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 6:55 AM, Alexandre Jablonski <alexandre...@yahoo.ca> wrote:

"Even though the Apollo moon missions involved thousands of NASA employees, in 40 years, even on their deathbeds, not one former NASA employee has come forward to say that there was any kind of moon landing hoax."

For anyone who might be interested, below is a link to a video (approximately 10 minutes long) mentioning the death of astronaut Virgil "Gus" Grissom. The narrator in the video asserts that Gus' family believes that Gus' death wasn't accidental. The video includes clips from interviews with Gus' son and widow, as well some stuff about Thomas Ronald Baron, and about Baron's death. According to the narrator of the video, Baron had testified before congress that Apollo program was in such disarray that the United States would never make it to the moon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0p7JvhNtV8 Below is an excerpt from a conversation between Srila Prabhupada and Tamal Krsna, that I found interesting to consider in connection with things such as the above. Srila Prabhupada: ...sinful. And for this bluffing, they have spent millions, er, billions of... Tamala Krsna: It said thirty billion dollars just for that one episode. In the article the man says that many Americans already feel the same way he does, that it's a bluff. Srila Prabhupada: From the very beginning I have said it is childish, 1958. I am not scientist. I have no... No, there are so many incidences. I never agreed, "It may be they have gone." They did not go. Tamala Krsna: He has very elaborately described how they faked everything. He gave in great detail how each part of the hoax was perpetrated. The thing is... Srila Prabhupada: The Apollo, they were dying. They prayed to God. This is also artificial. Hm? Tamala Krsna: Our conclusion was that those three men who died were killed, that they never knew that there was a hoax while they were in training. Then, at the time when the spacecraft was going to take off they were told, "Now you're not going anywhere. This is only a hoax, so you have to act like this," and probably they did not want to. They refused. Therefore they were killed. We were discussing this yesterday, Gargamuni, Sridhara Maharaja, Bali-mardana and myself. That was our conclusion, that those men must have been killed by the government. Srila Prabhupada: Otherwise they'll disclose. Tamala Krsna: Yes. And thereafter no one else died. After that, others did not die, probably because they were told that "Don't you do the same thing or you'll meet with the same fate. Unless you toe the line and... Then you will also be dealt with very severely." Because they're such big cheaters, they will not stop at anything. Killing to them is nothing. Srila Prabhupada: Killing affair should not be regarded, criminal affair. Tamala Krsna: No. Srial Prabhupada: They can kill even the president. Because they are meat-eaters, there is no mercy. What is mercy, they do not know. Vina pasu-ghnat. Pasu-ghna. Mercilessly they kill animals, and they become accustomed to merciless... (Morning Conversation, April 23rd, 1977, Bombay) Below is Wikipedia article that I found interesting, on the topic of "compartmentalization of information", which may also be something worth taking into consideration. "In matters concerning intelligence, whether public or private sector, compartmentalization of information means to limit access to information to persons who directly need to know such information in order to perform certain tasks. "The basis for compartmentalization is that if fewer people know the details of a mission or task, the risk or likelihood that such information could be compromised or fall into the hands of the opposition is decreased. Hence, varying levels of clearance within organizations exist. Yet, even if someone has the highest clearance, certain 'eyes only' information may still be restricted to certain operators, even of lower rank. In intelligence administration, officials believe it is useful to keep close watch on 'sources and methods' information[1] to prevent disclosure of people and their activities, whose lives they may believe to be at risk if such information were publicly disclosed or fall into the hands of the opposition. "In May of 2008, former Military Intelligence Sergeant Adrienne Kinne, who had served for ten years, from 1994 to 2004, and was active in the Iraq war, explained how compartmentalization worked to facilitate the wiretapping she participated in. She stated: "'When this was going on, I had absolutely no idea what was going on in the rest of the military intelligence, the rest of our government. Everything is so compartmentalized that you don’t really know necessarily what the person next to you is doing, let alone in a different room in a different building in a different location. And so, it really wasn’t until the New York Times piece came out about the NSA’s domestic wiretapping that I really began to think about what we were doing and my mission and that we were collecting on Americans. And we were doing so for the flimsiest of reasons.' All the best, Alex

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[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

You say that the GBC’s current system of initiations by appointment is bogus. I say that their years of covering up the sexual child abuse in some of the gurukula’s, even keeping it secret from gurukula headmasters, such as myself and my wife, was a mistake. Therefore it’s obvious, that their not continuing rtvik initiations after November 14th, 1977 was another one of their big mistakes. Even though Srila Prabhupada said in his last will and testament, “no changes,” they changed the system of initiations without authorization.

Again, you want your cake and eat it too. You admit that the GBC sometimes makes mistakes, but for no rational reason, you insist that their interpretation of the July 9th letter was not a mistake.

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa

On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 3:09 PM, Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com> wrote:

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com>

Date: Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 3:07 PM
Subject: Re: Proof That They Went to the Moon
To: istag...@googlegroups.com

[Greg Jay]

On Aug 2, 2009, at 9:07 AM, Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP wrote:

What it all boils down to is, “What does Srila Prabhupada mean when he uses the word, henceforward?” According to you, we should have stopped using the Sanskrit diacritics in Srila Prabhupada’s books and in BTG on November 14th, 1977, right?

Not at all. The word henceforward can have several meanings. It's means "for the time being" also. As you admit Prabhupada did not make it clear. Therefore why do you insist that it was clear? Neither did he make it clear how to make rtviks in the future or what the qualifications of a rtvik were. So in fact he didn't really set up a system with any longevity, did he?

It’s obvious that the GBC interpreted the word henceforward in one way for the above and in a different way for the July 9th letter without any rational reason for making such a discrimination.

Not only that but they are the one's authorized to interpret and implement his desires. He Himself put them in charge of that. So if you have a problem take it up with them and Prabhupada who authorized them. Unless you think it was a mistake for Prabhupada to authorize them? Do you? Well, do you?

By henceforward, Srila Prabhupada always meant the dictionary definition, “from this point forward.”

Again this is your interpretation not others. Taking into consideration ALL of Prabhupada's teachings on guru parampara this cannot possibly be the meaning. And as I have shown since he never actually gave a clear system for how it could go on forever he didn't want it to. His letters from 1975 clearly show that he did not think it unbonafide for his disciples to take their own disciples in ISKCON, simply he wanted people to become qualified.

If you want to criticize people for not being qualified that's fine, but that doesn't mean that Prabhupada didn't want his qualified disciples to make their own disciples in ISKCON. He even mentions his having granddisciples. So it absurd to say that he rejected the idea.

sincerely

GKD

[Greg Jay]

On Aug 2, 2009, at 9:30 AM, Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP wrote:

You say that the GBC’s current system of initiations by appointment is bogus.

Yes, Prabhupada wanted all his qualified disciples to be gurus. The sastra and Prabhupada explained how the disciple tests and chooses the guru, not any committee.

I say that their years of covering up the sexual child abuse in some of the gurukula’s, even keeping it secret from gurukula headmasters, such as myself and my wife, was a mistake.

Me too. We agree.

Therefore it’s obvious, that their not continuing rtvik initiations after November 14th, 1977 was another one of their big mistakes.

A = B so therefore C = D. Sorry, that's not logical at all. The two things are unrelated.

Even though Srila Prabhupada said in his last will and testament, “no changes,” they changed the system of initiations without authorization.

I agree. The system of initiation should be just as it was and always has been. People test and choose a guru of their choice.

Again, you want your cake and eat it too.

If you make a mistake, does it mean that everything you do is a mistake? That is nonsense. You have no discrimination to see what is a mistake and what is not. We have to understand what is a mistake by reference to sastra.

You admit that the GBC sometimes makes mistakes, but for no rational reason, you insist that their interpretation of the July 9th letter was not a mistake.

Sastra (and Prabhupada's teachings) say that a guru is chosen after being tested by a disciple. Sastra also says approach a guru, render service to him and enquire submissively from him. It also says the Krsna will send the bonafide guru to the sincere disciple. It says nothing about previous acharyas giving diksha.

I just follow sastra as given by Srila Prabhupada. I'm sorry if you don't but that's not my problem.

GKD

[Greg Jay]

Your problem Pratyatosha is that you don't know sastra nor do you know
Vaisnava history, or tradition.

If you ever go to India be sure to tell you crazy theories to all the
Vaisnavas you meet. They will get a good laugh out of them.

GKD