What? Quotes please! are you talking communal bathing or private in a bathroom. Context would be important.This just for clarity and not for fighting. But what is the relevance considering the line of discussion at the moment?
RCB
... Hare Krishna! Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!
Did Srila Prabhupada EVER bathe naked?
Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa
Don't want to cause any controversy but when Srila Prabhupada bathed in a
public area he would do so in his gamcha. When he was in his private bath in
his quarters he did not. As he often said, Krishna Consciousness is common
sense.
your servant, Srutakirti das
Why would anyone lie about anything? Motivation, even on a very personal, secretive level. I for one would not trust Bhav's as far as i can throw him. Srtakirti is not a bad person as far as i can tell, yes I've had some association with him in India and in his capacity as servent to Srila Prabhupada. He was there when i was Prabhupada's gaurd and gave a $300 cashmere blanket to Prabhupada because He was a little cold in Miami, winter 75'. I like him!
One should be particularly careful to observe this injunction when bathing in a river or other public place.
This would go nicely with what Srtakirti said.
Wasn't Hari Sauri servant after Srutakirti?Hare KrsnaRCB
What reason would Bhavananda Prabhu have to lie about this? Bhavananda was with Srila Prabhupada before and after Srutakirti Prabhu was Srila Prabhupada's personal servant. Who has spent more time living in India? Who, therefore, knows more about Vedic culture, and what Srila Prabhupada would and wouldn't do?
In addition, we have the diety worship manual, which Srila Prabhupada told us to follow:
BTW, never bathing naked and always wearing brahmin underwear are two of the secrets for maintaining celibacy! :-)
Thought you might appreciate this snippet from the Manu Samhita - which HDG Srila Prabhupada would occasionally refer to:
Manu Smriti - Laws of Manu
Chapter 4 : Duties of the Brahmana
Text 45: Let him not eat, dressed with one garment only; let him not bathe naked; let him not void urine on a road, on ashes, or in a cow-pen,
I am sure some might offer something along the lines of "Well..that is for the brahmana etc etc'.
However it would appear that Vaisnava - being higher than even the "brahmana" which is itself a "false prestige" only unless it assists us in arriving at the Vaisnava Conclusion - was the platform Srila Prabhupada was teaching and thus his apparent example in this respect is - appears to be - as usual - perfectly in harmony with the above quote from Manu Samhita.
P --- On Wed, 6/30/10, Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com> wrote: |
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Dear Pratyatosa , Obeisances, all glories to Srila Prabhupada. I personally never saw Prabhupada bathe Naked. In the Dharma shastras it is enjoined to not bathe naked, you are being observed by the sun, moon, air, fire, the ten directions etc.....
GKD prabhu
PAMHO AGTSP
We all agree....
Celibacy begins in the mind - with the "determination" to avoid all thoughts - even in dreams - the so-called pleasures of "liquid beauty".
However - the moment we make such a "determined" decision to renounce the poison of "liquid beauty" even in dreams - there are things we are guided to DO and NOT DO.
For example - we are guided to avoid talking of sex life, talking alone with a woman who is not our wife including our mother, sister or daughter. We are also cautioned against gazing upon even a wooden image of a naked female, what to speak of gazing upon sudra women who are scantily dressed! There are many other "Do's and Don't do's" in this respect and they are all just basic common sense in the end.
I am sure Pratyatosa prabhu is merely offering one of the important benefits of following Srila Prabhuapda's example in this regard to be employed in our efforts to avoid the silly and debilitating influence of the attraction to "liquid beauty".
We all know were that sense gratification commences by contemplating their objects and then enduring the lust that follows - leading to disappointment, frustration, anger and blooping etc.
However you employ a logical fallacy here when you say
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Brought to you by Indian culture which has created the largest population in the world???? lol
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Varnasankara's increase has nothing to do with sex life per se. You do not seem to know what point you are trying to make here.
Yes the Indian Vedic Culture did flourish by "following" all of the Laws of Manu. That it no longer cherishes or acts in strict accordance to the Laws of Manu - does not diminish the value of its own esteemed provenance!
It being the oldest culture in the world - it has a head start on the rest of the planet in terms of procreation and is for a myriad of reasons - chief of which is that it is the "playground" of the Lord in all of His playful "human like" pastimes - the most ADVANTAGEOUS place to take birth. Anyone BLESSED to take his birth in Bharatvarsa - is urged to take full advantage of the golden opportuntiy of birth there - with the same willingness to suffer the inconveniance of "overcrowding" with the same patient sense of good fortune shared by all of the "survivors" in the lifeboats that managed to make it off the Titanic. Bhagavad Gita asserts that those who surmise that birth in this world is due to sex only - celibate or otherwise - is sorely confused.
"No doubt wearing kaupina helps maintaining celibacy". Here you are actually agreeing with his basic point. |
"Bathing naked in a private bathroom??? I doubt it. Where's the stats on that?"
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You are implying that he actually IS suggesting "bathing naked in a private bathroom" when he is clearly saying the opposite.
We don't base ANYTHING on so-called STATISTICS. Where you gonna find such "stats" anyway. You gonna find them? What the Spiritual Master instructs by precept and example - we simply accept and pass on to them whose faith is our equivalent. |
"The most important factor in maintaining celibacy in between your ears not your legs!!!!!!"
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This is the logical fallacy called "begging the question" - asking us to agree that Pratyatosa has actually stated or implied that celibacy begins between our legs!
He clearly did not say or imply that at all. He was merely describing a positive action - that can serve our DETERMINATION to abstain from any interaction with "liquid beauty" in our thoughts, words or deeds. Just as Srila Prabhupada told us in Hawaii that "swimming" was helpful for maintaining strong legs and strong legs were helpful to the brahmacaris in remaining celibate - he was merely pointing out a possible "fringe benefit" to following Srila Prabhuapda's example.
And once our determination kicks in - the power to remain actually celibate in thought words and deeds - finds its strength with our inviting Lord Krsna to "dance upon our tongues" whilst we serve Him by chanting Hare Krsna like kids callling for Mama!
This "HIGHER TASTE" is perfectly suited - to destroying our obnoxious attachment to any and all forms of "liquid beauty" in this world.
P
GKD |
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Prabhu
Please consider that you are in essence berating your son-in-law and his father over a smaller issue in public. SP clearly did not want men bathing naked in front of each other. Now on such a minor issue you could be straining a family relation which SP also valued among devotees. SP rarely berated devotees in public, he was totally opposed to this and severely chastised those who did this. Please consider your priorities, IMHO, and the multiplicity of SP’s instructions. Not just the one instruction on underwear.
Ys [name withheld]
The main point that RCB seemed to be trying to make was that he is not
going immediately adopt some new standard each time someone declares
their "prabhupada said" is something we should all accept as law and
practice or face being considered in defiance of the Guru's order,
insulting to Prabhupada, insulting to the person with the memory, etc.
etc. I agree with him about that tactic, it is a bit bullyish. Especially when the person you are preaching to is KNOWN for using quotes, demanding quotes, and is also on the record as not being much of a "Prabhupada said" man. That said, at this point, the testimony of Pratyatosa das, plus the other testimonies and circumstantial evidence weigh heavily in the favor that this was a standard of Srila Prabhupada's. And that he passed that standard on to select others. Were these select others also ordered to institute the standard across the entire movement? Because if they were so ordered, someone fumbled the ball if Caturbahu das who lived in various temples from 74-78 never heard of it. It received that standard in Philly. Always have gamsha at all times when not clothed. Even in bath and shower. I will take the milk from the water on this one, and am grateful you brought this practice back to my attention. I believe it would reduce the severety of the attacks of lust on the mind and senses. Love and trust, not by force Hare Krsna! |
--- On Fri, 7/2/10, Bhaktatraveler <bhaktat...@yahoo.com> wrote: |
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The main point that RCB seemed to be trying to make was that he is not going immediately adopt some new standard each time someone declares their "prabhupada said" is something we should all accept as law and practice or face being considered in defiance of the Guru's order, insulting to Prabhupada, insulting to the person with the memory, etc. etc.
I agree with him about that tactic, it is a bit bullyish. Especially when the person you are preaching to is KNOWN for using quotes, demanding quotes, and is also on the record as not being much of a "Prabhupada said" man.
That said, at this point, the testimony of Pratyatosa das, plus the other testimonies and circumstantial evidence weigh heavily in the favor that this was a standard of Srila Prabhupada's. And that he passed that standard on to select others.
Were these select others also ordered to institute the standard across the entire movement? Because if they were so ordered, someone fumbled the ball if Caturbahu das who lived in various temples from 74-78 never heard of it.
It received that standard in Philly. Always have gamsha at all times when not clothed. Even in bath and shower.
I will take the milk from the water on this one, and am grateful you brought this practice back to my attention. I believe it would reduce the severety of the attacks of lust on the mind and senses.
Love and trust, not by force
Hare Krsna!
Don't lower yourself as to put words into my mouth that I have not said, it is beneath my high opinion of you! Tabloid extrapolations are PADA's job, as the mood strikes him. But that should not fly here on this forum. I always thought you ran a higher quality ship, at least you hold me to it as much as possible.You do make a good point about wet cloth. Makes me go hmmmmmm.I do not really care about this one way or another, if truth be known. Such a small thing to bath naked in private. Though I may stop. I like to do the easy stuff to make for a stronger foundation to support the more difficult orders. I do not see any actual vani on the subject, a devotee's memory is great for those that have them. I'm all done with "Prabhupada says" that has no hard copy to back it up. But wet cloth is pretty good.Maya???? Please I got way bigger maya than some stupid thing about private bath naked. Hell, I think I'm King of the world!!! LOL.RCB
You are grasping at straws, Caturbahu Prabhu, desperately trying to justify your own maya and avoid following Srila Prabhupada's example.
Srila Prabhupada's intimate associates would know whether or not he bathed naked because if he bathed naked, then his kaupena and/or his gamcha would NOT be soaking wet. Therefore, what you seem to be saying is that Srila Prabhupada said to himself, "Let me bathe naked since no one is going to see me, but I will proceed to make my gamcha soaking wet so that my disciples will think that I didn't bathe naked!" Is this what you think of your spiritual master?
Ys, Ptd
Please allow me to offer a side comment upon something that is actually important.
That is that for all of as Srila Prabhupada's disciples - there was NEVER anything he said that we considered as a "little thing" and therefore not very important.
Whatever we were fortunate enough to hear from him directly - or even said to another - we all considered THAT to have been DIRECTLY offered us by no less than Lord Krsna Himself.
When I met Srila Prabhupada for the first time in person - I had, along with 5 other boys - gone out prior to this meeting on a morning walk in Hawaii and picked flowers - wrapping them in a tin foil "handle" - which we all proceeded to offer HDG after we offered obeisances as he was exiting his car. When my turn came to offer my corsage of roses, frangipani and gardenias - my right hand was in my japa bag, so I extended the corsage with my left hand. Srila Prabhupada reached to accept it - but then noted I was offering with my left hand. He immediately asked "Left Hand?". I tried to switch the corsage to my other hand - but he took it anyway, smiling and saying "That's all right. But next time - right hand".
I felt embarrassed but I was happy just to be there. I remember speaking with Sudama Swami later and he said "Srila Prabhupada took the time to correct a very very small thing. So imagine how important the "big things" are! If even the seemingly "small things" are important - his pointing that out only adds the greatest importance to the big things that keep us fixed in Krsna Consciousness.
I know for myself - its the slow encroachment of the "little things" that I relegate to minor importance - that seem to do the most damage- as inattention to the "little things" always seems to lead to assiging less importance to the "big things" that can do the maximum damage to my determination to remember and serve the instructions of Srila Prabhupada.
I would also tend to consider this issue of "bathing" to be less important and not something to give much concern to. But the more I think about it- the more significant my acceptance of this "little thing" seems to be. It is really more about how simple we can remain in our worshiping of all the vani and example of Srila Prabhupada.
I am grateful for this discussion - as it has triggered a blessed memory of HDG for me - and the blessings of that experience way back in January of 1974. I was given Brahmana initiation only 4 months later and in my letter from HDG - he cautioned that unless the men being so initiated were prepared to strictly follow all our principles very carefully - their was no need for us to take the second initiation. My experience with him on that previous walk helped to underscore what he stated to us in his letter of acceptance.
Though this matter might seem small - and it is - I am grateful and purified by hearing the comments back and forth among all of you. Thank you all very much.
YS
Praghosa |
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Dear Prabhus,
Please accept my humble obeisances. All Glory to His Divine Grace Srla Prabhupada! Param Vijayate Sri Krishna Samkirtan!
This issue of bathing in the privacy of one's bathroom, is something I have never heard discussed before... It is unique.
Obviously exposing one's genitals in public is not proper, but alone in the bathroom? I remember as a brahmacari when I had one kaupin, and I'd wash it in the morning when I showered, wring it out and put it back on damp! That one kaupin lasted me close to a year in 1972.
My first personal, direct instruction from Prabhupada was in February 1970. I had worked on getting his apartment ready for him to live in at the new LA Temple. He moved in one day and a few of us were there when he arrived. He sat at his table-desk and handed us all cookies, and after we'd ate them he told us to go wash our hands and mouth, and said that we must do this every time we ate anything.
Begging the mercy of the devotees always,
Your servant,
Bhakta dasa (ACBSP) bha...@saintly.com or bha...@balabhadra.com Skype : bhakta_dasa MSN : Bhakt...@hotmail.com Mobile +66-81-910-8792 Fax 66-2-398-5211 -------Original Message------- |
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