What would motivate a disciple to claim that Srila Prabhupada never makes any mistakes?

[Pratyatosa]

Dear Prabhus, Hare Krishna! Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

To claim that Srila Prabhupada, doesn't make any mistakes is the same as claiming that "Srila Prabhupada is God," a virulent disease that infected ISKCON in August of 1970:

"Satyabhama devi dasi: The GBC kept meeting and discussing and trying to figure out what was going on. Because it felt really weird, really off, but nobody knew the philosophy well enough, except Hayagriva, who had done all the editing of the books. Rupanuga was baffled. Hayagriva was the only one who had them pegged. He was unequivocal. His final analysis was, 'They say Prabhupada is God, and Prabhupada is the spiritual master, and sannyasis will become spiritual master. These are the sannyasis, the leaders of the movement, the future spiritual masters. So they’re going to be God. And that’s what this is all about.”' (Radha-Damodara Vilasa by Vaiyasaki dasa - Eleventh Wave – New Vrndaban Shakedown)

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa

On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 1:52 PM, Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sun, Jan 16, 2011 at 2:33 PM, Anuttama devi dasi <anutt...@gmail.com> wrote:

Regarding Pratyatosa
Prabhu saying that Srila Prabhupada said that we should only chant
hare krsna in preparation for the coming changes, actually Srila
Prabhupada constantly talked about the need to live locally:  growing
food where we live.

But when asked "What should we do to prepare for nuclear war?" the answer was never, "Live locally, grow your own food, and be self sufficient." It was always simply, "Chant Hare Krishna!" These "living locally" instructions simply mean, "Don't buy fresh fruit and vegetables during the winter. Instead, buy locally produced food which has been canned, dried, or stored in a root cellar." It does not mean that we have to necessarily grow the food ourselves.

And it certainly does not change the fact that to grow our own food (farming) is grhastha business. Grhastha (householder) life is only for husband and wife under the age of 50 with under-age children living at home. It is not the business of those of us who are past age 50. All that we need in order to take vanaprastha is for the eldest son to be fully grown, so that he can take charge of the wife and younger children. Srila Prabhupada also said that a household without children is void.

Vanaprastha literally means "go to the forest," so this is also a form of self sufficiency. But it doesn't mean growing one's own food. It means living off of the fruits, roots, and berries which grow wild in the forest.

It's ironic that those of us who are the most fanatical about blindly accepting everything that Srila Prabhupada said, which is simply a Mayavadi, "Prabhupada is God" understanding, are the very ones who have so little faith in Srila Prabhupada's repeated instructions: "Vanaprasha at age 50!" (paraphrased)

The following strikes a raw nerve with me because I was there in New Vrindaban when all of this nonsense was going on:

"Srila Prabhupada's response to the New Vrndaban ("Srila Prabhupada is God") incident is to emphasize, more than ever, the chanting of sixteen rounds, the following of the regulative principles, and a strong morning program to cure the disease that infected the Society." (Radha-Damodara Vilasa by Vaiyasaki dasa - Eleventh Wave – New Vrndaban Shakedown)

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa

[P Conroy]

ok Pratyatosa p, then may as well claim that Lord Jesus made mistakes also. 

may as well focus on all the mistakes made by all pure devotee's throughout eternity , why stop with Srila Prabhupada..

may as well head right into the spiriotual world and claim they make mistakes too. I just think that this is a real crummy focus.

may as well play xbox all ones life than foucus on the errors of pure devotee's .

one of the symtoms of a pure devotee is not to make mistakes

whereas one of the symtoms of the conditioned soul is to make mistakes.

     

--
You have received this email because you are a member of the Google Prabhupadanuga Group. To post to our group for all the world to see, send an email to <istag...@googlegroups.com>. Getting too many emails? Please go to <http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi/subscribe> and change your email settings, or request Pratyatosa Dasa (praty...@gmail.com) to change your settings for you. To cancel your membership, send an email to <istagosthi+...@googlegroups.com>. For more options, go to <http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi>.

[Gauridasa Pandita]

Even when the guru is wrong he is right ~

 but don't take it out of context for the modern self-proclaimed or GBC rubber stamped so called diksa gurus! They are siksa, instructors only! Srila Prabhupada is the qualified diksa, siksa delivering guru of all of us. Too bad the newer devotees are getting cheated out of Prabhupada! The cheaters and the cheated! As he always said.

Hoping this meets you well and Happy in Krsna Consciousness

Your eternal friend and servant

Gauridasa Pandita Dasa

\o/ HariboL \o/

Chant and be Happy!

[Pratyatosa]

Then please tell me: Why is it that the ones who yell the loudest, "Look at me! I'm so great! I believe everything that Srila Prabhupada said without question," are the very ones who don't even have enough faith in Srila Prabhupada to follow his example by having 100% of their children via natural birth at home, who don't even have enough faith in Srila Prabhupada's instructions to give 100% of their children a 100% gurukula/home schooled education, and who don't even have enough faith in Srila Prabhupada's instructions to take vanaprastha at age 50?

Please name one disciple of Srila Prabhupada who is an exception to the above unfortunate generality.

Ys, Ptd

[Pratyatosa]

Dear Satyahit Prabhu, please read the following letter from Srila Prabhupada very carefully. Then perhaps you will better understand what I am trying to say:

My Dear Atreya Rsi,
Please accept my blessings. I am in due receipt of your very nice letter of January 10, 1972, and I am very much pleased by the sentiments expressed therein. It is not so much that because there may be some faults in our godbrothers and godsisters, or because there may be some mismanagement or lack of cooperation, that this is due to being impersonalists, no. It is the nature of the living condition to always have some fault. Even in the Spiritual World there is some fault and envy -- sometimes the Gopis will quarrel over Krishna's favor, and once Krishna was so much attracted to Radharani that by mistake he tried to milk the bull instead of the cow, and sometimes when the Gopis used to put on their dress and make-up for seeing Krishna, they would be too much hasty and smear kumkum and mascara in the wrong places and their ornaments and dresses would appear as if small children had been trying to dress themselves and they were not very expert, like that. There are so many examples. But it is not the same as material fault or material envy, it is transcendental because it is all based on Krishna. Sometimes when one Gopi would serve Krishna very nicely, the others would say, Oh, she has done so nicely, now let me do better for pleasing Krishna. That is envy, but it is transcendental, without malice. So we shall not expect that anywhere there is any Utopia. Rather, that is impersonalism. People should not expect that even in the Krishna Consciousness Society there will be Utopia. Because devotees are persons, therefore there will always be some lacking -- but the difference is that their lacking, because they have given up everything to serve Krishna -- money, jobs, reputation, wealth, big educations, everything -- their lackings have become transcendental because, despite everything they may do, their topmost intention is to serve Krishna. "One who is engaged in devotional service, despite the most abominable action, is to be considered saintly because he is rightly situated.'' The devotees of Krishna are the most exalted persons on this planet, better than kings, all of them, so we should always remember that and, like the bumblebee, always look for the nectar or the best qualities of a person. Not like the utopians, who are like the flies who always go to the open sores or find the faults in a person, and because they cannot find any utopia, or because they cannot find anyone without faults, they want to become void, merge, nothing -- they think that is utopia, to become void of personality. So if there is sometimes slight disagreements between devotees, it is not due to impersonalism, but it is because they are persons, and such disagreements should not be taken very seriously. The devotee is always pessimistic about the material world, but he is very optimistic about the spiritual life; so in this way, you should consider that anyone engaged in Krishna's service is always the best person. (February 4, 1972)

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa

[Jack Eskildsen]

Wow, that is a really nice quote from Prabhupada and explains a lot. Thanks for posting. Hare Krsna --- On Tue, 1/18/11, Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com> wrote:

--

[Pratyatosa]

On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 4:13 PM, Gauridasa Pandita <gaur...@aol.com> wrote:

Even when the guru is wrong he is right ~

Yes. The pure devotee is simply serving Krishna. Krishna is always directing him from within his heart. Therefore, even when it seems like he has made a mistake, Krishna is behind it! :-) Therefore, every "mistake" is not really a mistake in the spiritual sense. It is meant for a spiritual purpose. IMHO, these seeming mistakes have many purposes. Krishna is very tricky. For one thing, they tend to separate the blind followers from those who actually use their God-given intelligence in the service of God. Those are the kinds of followers whom Srila Prabhupada wants, not the blind followers who are constantly making fools of themselves.

Ys. Ptd

[larry freeman p]

Pure devotee is 'correct' spiritually.

 

however, Supersoul is not interested in having the pure devotee know what is in the mind of some rikshaw driver in Hong Kong.

He doesn't need to know that;

even if He wanted to.

---

From: praty...@gmail.com
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 17:53:56 -0500

Subject: [Prabhupadanuga] Re: What would motivate a disciple to claim that Srila Prabhupada never makes any mistakes?
To: istag...@googlegroups.com

CC: amey...@gmail.com; madhu...@gmail.com

[Ken McLEOD]

Perhaps we should re-define our ideas when it comes to who we see as being a pure devotee! If Krishna is very tricky (so to speak) then we are the one's being tricked, because it is the blind followers who have access to the majority of assets left by Srila Prabhupada which are meant to assist us to become Krishna Conscious. The blind followers have His temples His Deities etc.

If this is the case what sort of trick is Krishna playing here?

The nectar of instruction states something to the effect that a spiritual master such as Srila Prabhupada never makes mistakes. As far as I understand that's where disciples have developed the motivation from this understanding. 

Kurma  

---

From: lak...@webtv.net

To: istag...@googlegroups.com
CC: amey...@gmail.com; madhu...@gmail.com

Subject: RE: [Prabhupadanuga] Re: What would motivate a disciple to claim that Srila Prabhupada never makes any mistakes?
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 15:27:30 -0800

[Pratyatosa]

The current ISKCON leaders are certainly not blind followers. They've gone to the other extreme. They even question Srila Prabhupada's direct orders, such as the July 9th letter. As I've pointed out on <http://rtvik.com/>, when our spiritual master gives us a direct order in the form of a written, signed document, such as the July 9th letter, then it is our duty to follow blindly. "Ours is not to wonder why; ours is but to do or die." In other words the ones who (pretend to?) follow Srila Prabhupada blindly, with no discrimination, are in maya, and the ones who question everything Srila Prabhupada has said or done, with no discrimination, are also in maya. Many otherwise sincere Prabhupadanuas fall into the former category, and many ISKCON leaders fall into the latter "we know better than Prabhupada" category.

There is also a third, "worst of the worst" category: Those who ignore Srila Prabhupada's direct instructions, but, at the same time, try to puff themselves up by condemning those who do not accept on blind faith statements like "the highest brain substance of woman is 34 ounce."

Ys, Ptd

[Jack Eskildsen]

The whole thing is a difficult situation because there really is no brahmana class or ksaitra class, just a mercantile class and lower. Prabhupada was trying to make it possible for brahamana but the situation has predictibly disentegrated into cursing and countercursing over legitimate issues and sometimes just trivial matters. Apparently Prabhupada knew his temples would fail but knew his books would be a success so that is why I say predictibly. If there is going to be a 10,000 year age of Caitanya Mahaprabhu then slowly out of this chaos and disintegration hopefully some kind of ksaitra class and brahmana class will eventually emerge out this madness, injustice and chaos that has ensued. Hopefully there is a saturation point where all sides just finally get tired of the madness and achieve a state of dhira and then Prabhupada's lessons to Earth will slowly trickle out to the masses again. All in my humble opinion only. :) Hare Krsna --- On Tue, 1/18/11, Pratyatosa wrote:

From: Pratyatosa Subject: [Prabhupadanuga] Re: What would motivate a disciple to claim that Srila Prabhupada never makes any mistakes?

To: "Ameyatma Prabhu", "Madhudvisa dasa" Date: Tuesday, January 18, 2011, 4:52 PM The current ISKCON leaders are certainly not blind followers. They've gone to the other extreme. They even question Srila Prabhupada's direct orders, such as the July 9th letter. As I've pointed out on <http://rtvik.com/>, when our spiritual master gives us a direct order in the form of a written, signed document, such as the July 9th letter, then it is our duty to follow blindly. "Ours is not to reason why. Ours is but to do or die." In other words the ones who (pretend to?) follow Srila Prabhupada blindly with no discrimination are in maya, and the ones who question everything Srila Prabhupada has said or done, without any discrimination are also in maya. Many otherwise sincere Prabhupadanuas fall into the former category, and many ISKCON leaders fall into the latter "we know better than Prabhupada" category.

There is also a third, "worst of the worst" category: Those who ignore Srila Prabhupada's direct instructions, but, at the same time, try to puff themselves up by condemning those who do not accept on blind faith statements like "the highest brain substance of woman is 34 ounce." Ys, Ptd

[Ken McLEOD]

Yes, and there is probably a 4th category and so on prabhu like those who have failed the last 2 categories by not helping them etc. If Krishna is being tricky then  the interesting thing is that His tricky-ness

seems to favour the current Iskcon leaders that's for sure!

yfs

Kurma  

---

From: praty...@gmail.com
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 19:52:12 -0500

Subject: [Prabhupadanuga] Re: What would motivate a disciple to claim that Srila Prabhupada never makes any mistakes?

To: istag...@googlegroups.com; amey...@gmail.com; madhu...@gmail.com

The current ISKCON leaders are certainly not blind followers. They've gone to the other extreme. They even question Srila Prabhupada's direct orders, such as the July 9th letter. As I've pointed out on <http://rtvik.com/>, when our spiritual master gives us a direct order in the form of a written, signed document, such as the July 9th letter, then it is our duty to follow blindly. "Ours is not to reason why. Ours is but to do or die." In other words the ones who (pretend to?) follow Srila Prabhupada blindly with no discrimination are in maya, and the ones who question everything Srila Prabhupada has said or done, without any discrimination are also in maya. Many otherwise sincere Prabhupadanuas fall into the former category, and many ISKCON leaders fall into the later "we know better than Prabhupada" category.

There is also a third, "worst of the worst" category: Those who ignore Srila Prabhupada's direct instructions, but, at the same time, try to puff themselves up by condemning those who do not accept on blind faith statements like "the highest brain substance of woman is 34 ounce."

Ys, Ptd

On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 7:09 PM, Ken McLEOD <kurmano...@live.com> wrote:

Perhaps we should re-define our ideas when it comes to who we see as being a pure devotee! If Krishna is very tricky (so to speak) then we are the one's being tricked, because it is the blind followers who have access to the majority of assets left by Srila Prabhupada which are meant to assist us to become Krishna Conscious. The blind followers have His temples His Deities etc.

If this is the case what sort of trick is Krishna playing here?

The nectar of instruction states something to the effect that a spiritual master such as Srila Prabhupada never makes mistakes. As far as I understand that's where disciples have developed the motivation from this understanding. 

Kurma

[Paul Howard]

Srila Prabhupada taught that materially conditioned persons make mistakes, cheat, have imperfect senses, and are illusioned, whereas liberated persons are not subject to these defects. Am I not remembering that correctly?

Why do you think only God can be free from mistakes, not those who have fully surrendered to Him and are duly empowered?

"Pratyatosa" <praty...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Dear Prabhus, Hare Krishna! Please accept my humble obeisances. All
>glories
>to Srila Prabhupada!
>
>To claim that Srila Prabhupada, doesn't make any mistakes is the same
>as
>claiming that "Srila Prabhupada is God," a virulent disease that
>infected
>ISKCON in August of 1970:
>

>*"Satyabhama devi dasi: The GBC kept meeting and discussing and trying

>to
>figure out what was going on. Because it felt really weird, really off,
>but
>nobody knew the philosophy well enough, except Hayagriva, who had done
>all
>the editing of the books. Rupanuga was baffled. Hayagriva was the only
>one
>who had them pegged. He was unequivocal. His final analysis was, 'They
>say
>Prabhupada is God, and Prabhupada is the spiritual master, and
>sannyasis
>will become spiritual master. These are the sannyasis, the leaders of
>the
>movement, the future spiritual masters. So they’re going to be God. And

>that’s what this is all about.”' *(Radha-Damodara Vilasa by Vaiyasaki

>> *"Srila Prabhupada's response to the New Vrndaban ("Srila Prabhupada

>is
>> God") incident is to emphasize, more than ever, the chanting of
>sixteen
>> rounds, the following of the regulative principles, and a strong
>morning

>> program to cure the disease that infected the Society."*

>(Radha-Damodara
>> Vilasa by Vaiyasaki dasa - Eleventh Wave – New Vrndaban Shakedown)
>>
>> Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa
>>
>

>--
>You have received this email because you are a member of the Google
>Prabhupadanuga Group. To post to our group for all the world to see,
>send an email to <istag...@googlegroups.com>. Getting too many
>emails? Please go to
><http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi/subscribe> and change your
>email settings, or request Pratyatosa Dasa (praty...@gmail.com) to
>change your settings for you. To cancel your membership, send an email
>to <istagosthi+...@googlegroups.com>. For more options, go to
><http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi>.

--
Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

[rainer hahn]

Motivation could be to advance spiritually, "If you have failed to achieve this status of faith, then there is no question of progress."
Prabhupada, Ahmedabad, December 12, 1972: [...] Adau sraddha. The beginning of spiritual life is sraddha, faith. Adau sraddha. Adau sraddha tatah sadhu-sangah. First of all, faith, and faith has been described by Krishnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami as, faith means: visvasa. So he explains:

‘sraddha’-sabde—visvasa kahe sudrdha niscaya krsne bhakti kaile sarva-karma krta haya

This is the sraddha. Sraddha means firm faith. As Krishna says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]

So unless one has got faith. Why one should consider himself that “I must be completely surrendered to Krishna,” unless one has got faith? Therefore faith is the beginning. And to create faith, Krishna has explained about Himself in the whole Bhagavad-gita.

So one who is fortunate, after reading Bhagavad-gita thoroughly, he’ll have a strong faith in Krishna. If you have failed to achieve this status of faith, then there is no question of progress.

That is explained by Krishnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami: sraddha-sabde visvasa kahe sudrdha niscaya. Sraddha means firm faith, with conviction, “Yes, if I surrender to Krishna, then all my business will be perfect, all my spiritual life will be perfect.”

Therefore Krishna says: sraddhavan bhajate. With sraddha, with full faith. Adau sraddha. Beginning is sraddha. If one has developed a little sraddha. Just like we are giving chance throughout the whole world by this propaganda, opening centers to create little sraddha.

And if the sraddha is there, then next stage is sadhu-sanga, if one wants to become Krishna conscious, if he has developed a little faith in it, the next stage is to associate with sadhu.
Full Lecture

[Pratyatosa]

Prabhu, what are you saying?

Srila Prabhupada obviously makes mistakes on the material platform, such as calling "New Vrindaban," "New Virginia," misquoting verses, etc. Therefore, it seems like you are saying that "Srila Prabhupada must not be fully surrendered to Krishna!"

It also seems like you are saying, "Once I am fully surrendered to Krishna, then I will no longer make any material mistakes. Therefore, when that happens, everyone should just believe me and follow me without question," right? Don't you see how this is just another self-motivated attitude? In other words, it's another one of maya's tricks.

Not only that, but this attitude is another case of disobeying one of Srila Prabhupada's instructions: His instruction to us in the form of the February 4, 1972 letter to Atreya Rsi. Have you even bothered to read it? It doesn't seem like you have. Either that or you don't understand it or don't accept it. Which is it?

Ys, Ptd

[Pratyatosa]

To have faith/advance spiritually means to have faith in and to follow Srila Prabhupada's instructions.

Like I said before:

Why is it that the ones who yell the loudest, "Look at me! I'm so great! I believe everything that Srila Prabhupada said without question," are the very ones who don't even have enough faith in Srila Prabhupada to follow his example by having 100% of their children via natural birth at home, who don't even have enough faith in Srila Prabhupada's instructions to give 100% of their children a 100% gurukula/home schooled education, and who don't even have enough faith in Srila Prabhupada's instructions to take vanaprastha at age 50?

Therefore, the devotees who fall into the above described category are hypocrites! How can you claim otherwise?

Ys. Ptd

[sunil maity]

Hare Krishna to all of you. If Srila Prabhupada is God, someone Says,  but Srila Prabhupada never says he is God.Then how someone gave poison to him to become Guru or Acharya of Iskcon.Please let us read all Eternal Revealed Vedic Scriptures of  "Sanatana Dharma"- like Srimad Bhagavatam, Bhagavad-Gita, 4 Vedas, 108 Upanishads, 18 Puranas, Vedanta and Brahma- Sutra, Brahma-Samhita, C.C and so on to know  about who is trueGod. Hare Krishna. Radhey Radhey. Om Shanti. Hari Om Tat Sat. God love all of us. We are children of God. Let us love God and love all living beings, all eternal Souls.

--- On Tue, 1/18/11, Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com> wrote:

[mark mclaughlin]

Pratyatosa das said:  "Srila Prabhupada obviously makes mistakes on the material platform"

My reply: Are you sure you want to stick with that statement? You can't convince me that Srila Prabhupada was ever on the material platform.  He was here in Maya's realm for sure, but he was never on the material platform.  Making mistakes "on the material platform" is reserved for me and you. Sri Krsna is Hrsikesha, master of the senses.  Conditioned souls like you and I get the illusion that we are independent and that we are controling our bodies and using our senses.  But actually Krsna controls even all that paramatma according to scripture "not a blade of grass" Srila Prabhupada was a FULLY surrendered Nitya Siddha, therefore every smile, twitch, gesture, bhajana, and of course his "mistakes" of memory or semantics or even hyperbolic exaggerations were ALL COMPLETELY CONTROLLED BY HRSIKESHA, KRSNA USING A SURRENDERED AND WILLING PARTICIPANT.  I am certain that in Srila Prabhupada's case there was no conditioned soul to get in the way of Krsna's will manifesting cent per cent at all times.  So every "gaff" was 100% percent designed by Krsna using His internal spiritual potency for his purposes. Because after all, Krsna knew someone would have the desire to point out the Acarya's mistakes.  And He fulfills all desires.

[Pratyatosa]

Maybe I should have said, "From a material point of view, Srila Prabhupada sometimes makes mistakes" Does that sound better?

You are correct. It is all happening under Lord Sri Krishna's complete control. It all has a purpose, or perhaps, multiple purposes. You mentioned one possible purpose. Earlier, I mentioned another: To separate the blind followers from those who use their God-given intelligence in the service of God. And here's yet another: To satisfy the desires of those who don't have enough faith to follow Srila Prabhupada's basic instructions, such as taking vanaprastha at age 50. He allows them to puff themselves up by finding fault with those of us who are not blind followers of every little off-the-cuff remark that Srila Prabhupada makes in casual conversation!

But like I said before on this thread and on <http://rtvik.com/>, when it comes to written, signed orders such as the July 9th letter, it is our duty as disciples to follow blindly. "Ours is not to wonder why; ours is but to do or die!" :-)

Ys, Ptd

[P Conroy]

Pd you keep bringing up the taking of varnaprasta after 50, I know, Prabhupada said so, 

so if a devotee is still with wife after 50 then they are vaisya or sudra. or even kshatriya 

ya ? >>> brahmins leave home at 50

but wait a mninute the 1st varnpras is traveling with wife 

everythings pretty blurry in this kali yuga 

--

[Pratyatosa]

Traveling with one's wife? Too expensive, too many hassles, too dangerous, and too sexually agitating (staying in small hotel rooms or guest rooms with nothing but a double bed, and having to share the same bathroom). However, if you have enough money to do it, an attractive devotee couple, traveling together in Vaisnava dress, would be good preaching.

Brahmanas and ksatriyas take vanaprastha. Sudras don't. I'm not sure about vaisyas. Probably not.

In any case, all of Srila Prabhupada's disciples should take vanaprastha at age 50 or shortly thereafter because that is his repeated instruction to us.

Vanaprastha means retired life: No more sex, no more house, no more car, no more job, no more business, no more mowing grass, and no more shoveling snow.

"The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: One who desires to adopt the third order of life, vanaprastha, should enter the forest with a peaceful mind, leaving his wife with his mature sons, or else taking her along with him." (SB 11.18.1)

[mark mclaughlin]

Pratyatosa das said:

Maybe I should have said, "From a material point of view, Srila Prabhupada sometimes makes mistakes" Does that sound better?

My reply: That sounds like the truth to me.  And the only way to use the word "mistake" and "Nitya-siddha" in the same breath. As for your theory about Vanaprastha... As soon as Srila Prabhupada ORDERED division by guna and karma within Iskcon in 74, the general orders for his pre-74 Brahmanas in training may or may not apply to those of other varnas. He gave detailed instructions, especially in Varnasrama talks in Vrndavana, as to what his Iskcon ksatriyas, vaisyas, and sudras would do and not do.  And if we don't find where He made a "time place circumstance" adjustment to the traditional Gaudiya Vedic standard as mentioned in our scriptures, we use the traditional standard. "No. At a certain stage, AFTER 50 YEARS, he must give up. That is called vānaprastha. And then, after being trained up in vānaprastha very nicely, he takes sannyāsa. This is brāhmaṇa's..., four āśrama. And for the kṣatriya, up to vānaprastha. Up to vānaprastha. Just like Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira and all the brothers, they left home, but the wife was there. That is called vānaprastha. They did not take sannyāsa. Kṣatriya. Up to vānaprastha. Vaiśyas. No vānaprastha, no sannyāsa. Up to gṛhastha. Brahmacārī... Brahmacārī is compulsory for the dvija. Because there is the training. And for the śūdra there is no brahmacārī. Only gṛhastha, married. Otherwise, life will be very irregular. So in this way varṇāśrama."  SB 1.5.32 lecture, Vrndavan 8/13/74 SB 2.7.6 Purport: "...Such a householder, AFTER 50 YEARS OF AGE, would retire from the association of woman as a vānaprastha to be trained to live alone without the association of woman. When the practice is complete, the same retired householder becomes a sannyāsī, strictly separate from woman, even from his married wife." As we can see, as far the vanaprastha age of "50" years old, there are many places where Prabhupada says AFTER 50.   Only a blind follower would hold everyone to being out of his house on his 50th birthday, or even any time during his 50th or even 51st year.  Especially given the circumstances.  God given intelligent discrimination tells us this is a real but general guideline.  A somewhat similar issue is that Srila Prabhupada ordered no more Sanyassa in Iskcon, three times, in 1977.  So, we are ordered to take sanyassa as part of DVD, yet there is a moratorium.  So the discriminating disciple understands that for now we follow the moratorium and meditate on its purpose.  Then some day in the future when there is a strictly following Brahminical council, they can follow Paramatma's guidance as to how to reinstate Sanyassa (or not). Hare Krsna

--- On Thu, 1/20/11, Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: What would motivate a disciple to claim that Srila Prabhupada never makes any mistakes? To: istag...@googlegroups.com

Cc: markm...@yahoo.com Date: Thursday, January 20, 2011, 12:03 AM

Maybe I should have said, "From a material point of view, Srila Prabhupada sometimes makes mistakes" Does that sound better?

You are correct. It is all happening under Lore Sri Krishna's complete control. It all has a purpose, or perhaps, multiple purposes. You mentioned one possible purpose. Earlier, I mentioned another: To separate the blind followers from those who use their God-given intelligence in the service of God. And here's yet another: To satisfy the desires of those who don't have enough faith to follow Srila Prabhupada's basic instructions, such as taking vanaprastha at age 50. He allows them to puff themselves up by finding fault with those of us who are not blind followers of every little off-the-cuff remark that Srila Prabhupada makes in casual conversation!

[Paul Howard]

What I was saying was simply that one of Srila Prabhupada's basic teachings was that a liberated person is not subject to the four material defects, including making mistakes, so perhaps one can be forgiven for thinking that is true even if it defies the senses.

Dwelling on suff like New Virginia seems rather trivial, but what about setting up the gurukulas where do many Hare Krishna children were brutally raped and tutored? Big mistake, it seems.

How about the fact that he left Iskcon in the control of people who would falsely claim themselves big acaryas, who have made it so that even today Iskcon is hostile to aspiring devotees like us? Was that Srila Prabhupada's intention, or a mistake? Neither is easy to accept.

I' ve said one way, and then another, tring to express some of the difficulty of this issue. Though always humble, Srila Prabhupada said a lot of things that portrayed himself as being on the platform of perfection. Unfortunately his creation of Iskcon turned out to have a very high potential for abuse, and this was factually exploited so that many people have been seriously harmed, not only physically, but even their attraction to Krishna consciousness. That is not very similar to gopis mismatching their clothes in haste to meet Krishna.

I don't know what to make of this; they're issues that I've never been able to reconcile, and I'm interested to hear what folks here might have to say about them.

"Pratyatosa" <praty...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Pratyatosa]

Dear Pandu Prabhu, I can understand your logic, and I don't pretend to completely understand it either, but the letter to Atreya Rsi certainly helps, don't you agree?

IMHO, Lord Sri Krishna wants us to make every conceivable mistake right from the get-go, so that these mistakes can be recorded for posterity. Then, hopefully, the Hare Krishna Movement will enjoy relatively smooth sailing for the next 10,000 years.

Srila Prabhupada's top priority was to get his books published. He gave a much higher priority to getting his books published than to trying to make ISKCON perfect. He needed a large organization in order to be able to do that. Therefore, he, like Lord Ramacandra, assembled a monkey army, and despite all the monkey-business, the job got done! :-)

Now, we all have digital copies of the original books, and as long as these digital copies are in the hands of devotees all over the world, it is impossible to destroy them. Every devotee computer is like a printing press in that it is capable of making many, many copies, each copy being exactly identical to the original.

The difficulties that we've had to undergo are not so bad in comparison to the early Christians, who were tortured and brutally put to death, wouldn't you say? "If it doesn't kill me, it makes me stronger."

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa

[Rakesh Sharma]

Dear Pandu Prabhu,

 

Hare Krishna.  Please accept my humble obeisances.  All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

 

I don't claim to comprehend or make sense out of everything on this matter also.  However, the mistakes that Srila Prabhupada's followers made should not be considered his fault.  He can't take away the followers free will or misuse thereof.  He made do with what was available and accomplished so much, despite all the problems. 

 

Sincerely,

Rama Raghava Dasa

(Augusta, Ga)

 

P.S:  are you the same Pandu who lived near Gita Nagari?

---

From: Pratyatosa
To:
Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 12:02:07 PM
Subject: [Prabhupadanuga] Re: What would motivate a disciple to claim that Srila Prabhupada never makes any mistakes?

[Paul Howard]

Yes that letter gives some general insight. Also, thank you for lightening up a little. It's not that I didn't "bother" to read it or that I disagreed with Srila Prabhupada, only that I don't think it applies very well to the hurting of large numbers of aspiring devotes.

No, I have not been put to death, but really I'm more concerned about my devotional life surviving right now.

I don't know if Iskcon's mistakes will be rectified so that it will be good for 10,000 years, but either way it's like a post-dated check. It doesn't help anyone now, and might not ever.

"Pratyatosa" <praty...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Pandu Prabhu, I can understand your logic, and I don't pretend to
>completely understand it either, but the letter to Atreya Rsi certainly
>helps, don't you agree?
>
>IMHO, Lord Sri Krishna wants us to make every conceivable mistake right
>from
>the get-go, so that these mistakes can be recorded for posterity. Then,
>hopefully, the Hare Krishna Movement will enjoy relatively smooth
>sailing
>for the next 10,000 years.
>
>Srila Prabhupada's top priority was to get his books published. He gave
>a
>much higher priority to getting his books published than to trying to
>make
>ISKCON perfect. He needed a large organization in order to be able to
>do
>that. Therefore, he, like Lord Ramacandra, assembled a monkey army, and
>despite all the monkey-business, the job got done! :-)
>
>Now, we all have digital copies of the original books, and as long as
>these

>digital copies are in the hands of devotees all over the word, it is

>impossible to destroy them. Every devotee computer is like a printing
>press
>in that it is capable of making many, many copies, each copy being
>exactly
>identical to the original.
>
>The difficulties that we've had to undergo are not so bad in comparison
>to
>the early Christians, who were tortured and brutally put to death,
>wouldn't
>you say? "If it doesn't kill me, it makes me stronger."
>
>Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa
>
>
>
>On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 11:15 AM, Paul Howard

><pandu1...@gmail.com>wrote:

[Paul Howard]

Was it not his decision whom to empower, whom to give control over Iskcon?

In any materially responsible position, responsibility cannot be fully given to an unqualified subordinate. If I put my 14 year old child in charge of the house while I'm gone, and am accident happens, it's partially my fault. Why should someone in a spiritually responsible position be less accountable?

"Rakesh Sharma" <ramar...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Dear Pandu Prabhu,
>
>Hare Krishna.  Please accept my humble obeisances.  All glories to
>Srila
>Prabhupada.
>
>I don't claim to comprehend or make sense out of everything on this
>matter
>also.  However, the mistakes that Srila Prabhupada's followers made
>should not
>be considered his fault.  He can't take away the followers free will or
>misuse
>thereof.  He made do with what was available and accomplished so much,
>despite
>all the problems. 
>
>
>Sincerely,
>Rama Raghava Dasa
>(Augusta, Ga)
>
>P.S:  are you the same Pandu who lived near Gita Nagari?
>
>
>
>
>________________________________

>From: Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com>
>To: istag...@googlegroups.com

>Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 12:02:07 PM
>Subject: [Prabhupadanuga] Re: What would motivate a disciple to claim
>that Srila
>Prabhupada never makes any mistakes?
>
>Dear Pandu Prabhu, I can understand your logic, and I don't pretend to
>completely understand it either, but the letter to Atreya Rsi certainly
>helps,
>don't you agree?
>
>IMHO, Lord Sri Krishna wants us to make every conceivable mistake right
>from the
>get-go, so that these mistakes can be recorded for posterity. Then,
>hopefully,
>the Hare Krishna Movement will enjoy relatively smooth sailing for the
>next
>10,000 years.
>
>Srila Prabhupada's top priority was to get his books published. He gave
>a much
>higher priority to getting his books published than to trying to make
>ISKCON

>perfect.He needed a large organization in order to be able to do that.

>Therefore, he, like Lord Ramacandra, assembled a monkey army, and
>despite all
>the monkey-business, the job got done! :-)
>
>Now, we all have digital copies of the original books, and as long as
>these

>digital copies are in the hands of devotees all over the word, it is

>impossible
>to destroy them. Every devotee computer is like a printing press in
>that it is
>capable of making many, many copies, each copy being exactly identical
>to the
>original.
>
>The difficulties that we've had to undergo are not so bad in comparison
>to the
>early Christians, who were tortured and brutally put to death, wouldn't
>you say?
>"If it doesn't kill me, it makes me stronger."
>
>Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa
>
>
>
>

>On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 11:15 AM, Paul Howard <pandu1...@gmail.com>

[mark mclaughlin]

"I don't claim to comprehend or make sense out of everything on this matter also.  However, the mistakes that Srila Prabhupada's followers made should not be considered his fault.  He can't take away the followers free will or misuse thereof.  He made do with what was available and accomplished so much, despite all the problems. "

I agree and the free will is the key. Of course Srila Prabhupada feels responsible for his creation.  And he also knows simultaneously that every person sent to him and every word they exchanged was all Krsna's doing, so he can be unattached to the result and let it come out the way KRSNA and WE EACH OF US really wanted things to be according to our own sweet will in conjuction with Krsna's.  It was based on our innermost unfathomable desires that Krsna used Srila Prabhupada to structure Iskcon exactly like He did, with all the "potential for abuse". Krsna knew in our hearts how much we would take to it, and how much we would reject, so he instructed Iskcon into existence through Srila Prabhupada's heart according to what we were ACTUALLY attracted to at the time.  The future would take care of itself one way, or the other. Blame Krsna if you must.  It is what I did at that stageof doubt in order to shake it off.

[larry freeman p]

again, 'you',  'we'   have free will.

 

to choose,

it is not 'every blade of grass' =  no free will:  no

you have free will.

you choose

---

Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2011 10:49:29 -0800
From: markm...@yahoo.com
Subject: [Prabhupadanuga] What would motivate a disciple to claim that Srila Prabhupada never makes any mistakes?
To: istag...@googlegroups.com

[rainer hahn]

Dear Prabhus, pamho agt Srila Prabhupada

This is correct, Prabhupada would have never exempt himself from being 100% responsible for his movement. If responsibility is assigned to unqualified leaders, the sole responsibility for everything happening in ISKCON rests upon Srila Prabhupada, there are no ifs and buts.

Therefore it would have been so important to follow Prabhupada's order and install the election of TPs and GBC every third year. Only  this system would have foreclosed that thousands of devotees rejected Prabhupada and joined the Gaudiya-matha or other camps.

Present GBC is unteachable on this point and rather changed the whole movement into a business than installing the link to Prabhupada via elected ritviks. And,  present GBC still insists upon that Prabhupada installed false gurus, made mistakes.

But what to do. If even the Prabhupadanugas cannot manage to install Prabhupada's DOM, TPs and GBCs and instead prefer to split into multiple competing camps? So we are being mislead by foolish people.

Prabhupada ordered that in his absense as soon there is a congregation of devotees they should vote every third year a TP and the TPs should vote GBCs and evrybody should work under spiritual authority.

However, because people are not fit to follow Prabhupada's orders, Prabhupada actually should have never opened temples, started a spiritual society and installed leaders who are able to destroy the lifes of thousands.

In sum we should not lose faith now and understand that Prabhupada knew about this danger but still took that risk to install a global Lord Caitanya's Sankirtan Movement because his guru ordered him.

Those who run into the open knife of the original eleven clan and spoiled their lives should see this with serenity. They will be first. "But many that are first will be last, and (the) last will be first."

YS

Rammohan das

[Pratyatosa]

When Srila Prabhupada was here, it was impossible to kick a devotee out of ISKCON. If you got kicked out of one temple, all that you had to do was to go to a different one, and you would be welcomed with open arms. Now, unfortunately, it's very easy to kick a devotee out of ISKCON. However, the ISKCON leaders who are left are laboring under a huge burden, and are in a lot of anxiety. They have disobeyed Srila Prabhupada, so the heavy burden is 100% on their shoulders.

Why lament? Srila Prabhupada has given us books, tapes, videos, pictures, and letters. What more do we need to be Krishna conscious? What excuse do we have? We don't need ISKCON to be Krishna conscious.

As for our individual suffering at the hands of the current ISKCON leaders: "...whatever calamities happen we should take it as Krishna's blessings, as a token punishment for our past misdeeds." (<http://prabhupadabooks.com/search.php?CB=&inputString=%22+token+punishment+for+our+past+misdeeds%22>)

Ys, Ptd

[Varaha d.]

Hare Krsna.

Years ago when the Iraq war started Donald Rumsfeld, one of G.W.
Bushes cheif war mongers said about the readiness of the US
military,"You fight the war with the military you have".

Srila Prabhupada came to America and tried his best to convert the
most fallen of the fallen into vaishnavas. He fought his war against
maya with the troops that were sent to him. These troops came from the
ranks of criminals,hippies,meat
eaters,lesbians,homosexuals,drunks,drug addicts,grifters,you name it.
He did the best he could with what he had to work with. He had the
best of intentions. Prabhupadas "war" plans came from the Krsna,the
sastras and the previous acharyas. Iskcon was set up to work and run
properly, if it didn't(like it is not as of today) it was the fault of
the disciples NOT his. Ye yatha mam prapadyante, it is all a matter of
surrender isn't it? They never fully surrendered to Krsna or their
guru, Srila Prabhupada. As you said they had their free will and they
misused it,the blame lies with them,the current Iskcon leaders for
sorry state that the movment is in.

Ys,Varaha d.

On Jan 20, 11:47 am, Rakesh Sharma <ramaragh...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Dear Pandu Prabhu,
>
> Hare Krishna.  Please accept my humble obeisances.  All glories to Srila
> Prabhupada.
>
> I don't claim to comprehend or make sense out of everything on this matter
> also.  However, the mistakes that Srila Prabhupada's followers made should not
> be considered his fault.  He can't take away the followers free will or misuse
> thereof.  He made do with what was available and accomplished so much, despite
> all the problems. 
>
> Sincerely,
> Rama Raghava Dasa
> (Augusta, Ga)
>
> P.S:  are you the same Pandu who lived near Gita Nagari?
>
> ________________________________

> From: Pratyatosa <pratyat...@gmail.com>
> To: istag...@googlegroups.com

> Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 12:02:07 PM
> Subject: [Prabhupadanuga] Re: What would motivate a disciple to claim that Srila
> Prabhupada never makes any mistakes?
>
> Dear Pandu Prabhu, I can understand your logic, and I don't pretend to
> completely understand it either, but the letter to Atreya Rsi certainly helps,
> don't you agree?
>
> IMHO, Lord Sri Krishna wants us to make every conceivable mistake right from the
> get-go, so that these mistakes can be recorded for posterity. Then, hopefully,
> the Hare Krishna Movement will enjoy relatively smooth sailing for the next
> 10,000 years.
>
> Srila Prabhupada's top priority was to get his books published. He gave a much
> higher priority to getting his books published than to trying to make ISKCON

> perfect.He needed a large organization in order to be able to do that.

> Therefore, he, like Lord Ramacandra, assembled a monkey army, and despite all
> the monkey-business, the job got done! :-)
>
> Now, we all have digital copies of the original books, and as long as these

> digital copies are in the hands of devotees all over the word, it is impossible

> to destroy them. Every devotee computer is like a printing press in that it is
> capable of making many, many copies, each copy being exactly identical to the
> original.
>
> The difficulties that we've had to undergo are not so bad in comparison to the
> early Christians, who were tortured and brutally put to death, wouldn't you say?
> "If it doesn't kill me, it makes me stronger."
>
> Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa
>

> On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 11:15 AM, Paul Howard <pandu108....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> What I was saying was simply that one of Srila Prabhupada's basic teachings was
> that a liberated person is not subject to the four material defects, including
> making mistakes, so perhaps one can be forgiven for thinking that is true even
> if it defies the senses.
>
>
>
>
>
> >Dwelling on suff like New Virginia seems rather trivial, but what about setting
> >up the gurukulas where do many Hare Krishna children were brutally raped and
> >tutored?  Big mistake, it seems.
>
> >How about the fact that he left Iskcon in the control of people who would
> >falsely claim themselves big acaryas, who have made it so that even today Iskcon
> >is hostile to aspiring devotees like us?   Was that Srila Prabhupada's
> >intention, or a mistake?  Neither is easy to accept.
>
> >I' ve said one way, and then another, tring to express some of the difficulty of
> >this issue.  Though always humble, Srila Prabhupada said a lot of things that
> >portrayed himself as being on the platform of perfection.  Unfortunately his
> >creation of Iskcon turned out to have a very high potential for abuse, and this
> >was factually exploited so that many people have been seriously harmed, not only
> >physically, but even their attraction to Krishna consciousness.  That is not
> >very similar to gopis mismatching their clothes in haste to meet Krishna.
>
> >I don't know what to make of this; they're issues that I've never been able to
> >reconcile, and I'm interested to hear what folks here might have to say about
> >them.

> >--
>
> You have received this email because you are a member of the Google
> Prabhupadanuga Group. To post to our group for all the world to see, send an
> email to <istag...@googlegroups.com>. Getting too many emails? Please go to
> <http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi/subscribe> and change your email

> settings, or request Pratyatosa Dasa (pratyat...@gmail.com) to change your

> settings for you. To cancel your membership, send an email to
> <istagosthi+...@googlegroups.com>. For more options, go to

> <http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi>.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[David Sherk]

Pandu Prabhu                           Perhaps a personal phone discussion may help. If you would like me to call , send a phone number where you can be reached or call me @  585 466 3099. Usually I answer and I can call you back .If you get answering machine leave a message with your number.   If you get no answer, I forgot to turn on the answer machine. Try later         gada...@yahoo.com                                                             Gadai dasa--- On Thu, 1/20/11, Paul Howard <pandu1...@gmail.com> wrote:

>to <istagosthi+unsub...@googlegroups.com>. For more options, go to

><http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi>. -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. --

You have received this email because you are a member of the Google Prabhupadanuga Group. To post to our group for all the world to see, send an email to <istag...@googlegroups.com>. Getting too many emails? Please go to <http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi/subscribe> and change your email settings, or request Pratyatosa Dasa (praty...@gmail.com) to change your settings for you. To cancel your membership, send an email to <istagosthi+unsub...@googlegroups.com>. For more options, go to <http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi>.

[P Conroy]

          The original Govinda dd, G dd, took personal care of SP for over one year in early 67), she told me a story that took place in Montreal that for me sheds a lot of light on this topic. And thank you , those who pointed out about Srila Prabhupada's non material nature..

         She said there was a lesbian girl staying at the montreal temple and that she wanted private time to talk with Srila Prabhupada.  Finally she got in to speak with Srila Prabhupada,

, ( Prince Arthur st), and after Srila Prabhupada  asked Gdd, what is with her ? I spose she behaved a little strange. Gdd told Prabhupada that the girl liked girls, and Prabhupada's eye's got very big. 

         He said, In india some men are like that but he had never heard of women that way. He was a little shocked.  Even myself and many of you i think were shocked to 1st hear of child abuses in the gurukula's . I had never even imagined that would happen in Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON. Never . But it did and i was shocked,angered and dismayed. I was told personally by one mataji, that she approached the minister of education in Vrindaban after her son told her of abuses to the young boys.  He told her to shut up about it. thank you .

satyahit d   

[Pratyatosa]

But Srila Prabhupada was still saying, even in 1977, that his men give up householder life at age 50. As far as I know, he never mentioned that there were any exceptions to this rule. My understanding is that it's as soon after 50 as possible. If your oldest son is still not grown up when you are 50, then obviously you might have to wait a little longer, unless your wife is living in a temple asrama environment.

For me, I wasn't able to leave home until age 52, because my wife refused to let me go until then. But for those last 2 years, I was simply not into householder life any more. Either consciously or unconsciously,  I was doing a really lousy job at it. Therefore, my wife, who, being a sun in Taurus, tends to be more attached to material things than is normal, finally became detached enough to agree to let me go.

Ys, Ptd

[Paul Howard]

"He did the best he could with what he had to work with."

Really, it's pretty hard to believe that the 1977 gbc were the best he could leave in control. Yes, that's hindsight, but still Srila Prabhupada should have known.

"An expert physician can know what is the condition of this patient, and he treats him and gives him medicine accordingly. Similarly, a spiritual master who is actually spiritual master, he can know, he knows the pulse-beating of the disciple, and he therefore gives him particular kind of medicine so that he may be cured." (sb 1.5.13, june 13, 1969)

However, men like Kirtanananda were given control over the devotees in Iskcon, when these gbc were not cured of the material disease and were in fact quite dangerous.

"Varaha d." <khad...@wmconnect.com> wrote:

>email settings, or request Pratyatosa Dasa (praty...@gmail.com) to

>change your settings for you. To cancel your membership, send an email
>to <istagosthi+...@googlegroups.com>. For more options, go to

[P Conroy]

i find paul howard as offensive, why ? because he does not realize Srila Prabhupada's mind on the subject. Srila Prabhupada saw that the way He left the GBC was the way, because if there were a better one which He considered may have worked better, He would have chosen that. He was and is not God. Even God does not force us to behave properly. He gives us rope. Still we are always tied to His energies. No one should consider that a pure devotee is mistaken in hindsight. In short, this is a very poor thinking habit, which one should try by all means to root out. Srila Prabhupadda was sent by Krsna. So Paul's assertion would also mean that Krsna was wrong . With out small independance we may find fault with God, as many do.  They say God is cruel and become angry. 

We may say they have an anger issue. Paul, are you freed from anger ? 100%  

         Who can say they would have dealt better with TKG ? And see how the Lord dealt with TKG.

Karma does not have to take a long time to muster.  John Lenon ironically wrote and sang, "Instant Karma ".   satyahit das    

[rainer hahn]

Dear Prabhus, pamho AGTSP,

Paul isnt offensive, he just wants answers. Meanwhile all over Europe, and these are thousands, 99% ex-ISKCONites joined the Gaudiya-matha, Narayana swami, Puri-maharaja.

Not because they figured that those are better fired-up global preachers than Prabhupada. They know, Gaudiya-matha meant sitting in their guru's properties and fighting over right of ownership. But still, thousands left ISKCON to join there.

Obviously, thousands of ex-ISKCONites did not get the right answer, why Prabhupada installed neophyte leadership, why Prabhupada did not say in class: I remain the diksa-guru for ISKCON!

After Rupanuga, Karandhar, Revatinanda, Bali Mardan, Acyutananda, Syamasundara, Gargamuni, Nitai, Rajarama, and many other leaders of the early days had left, Prabhupada installed the second group of leaders, Bhagavan, Jayatirtha, TKG, Ramesvara, Harikes, etc etc.  

At this point Prabhupada knew, that his leaders would easily leave, were De Facto total neophytes. But how to deal with this? Prabhupada often mentioned, taking the risk.

Prabhupada: But he must know where to take risk and where to act foolishly.

For Prabhupada it was clear, the priority was to keep ISKCON going, even if this meant that there was a coup of taking over. "There will be men, I know. There will be men who want to try and pose themselves as Guru" (Bhavananda)

Prabhupada knew that this might happen. But in this situation to clearly tell all his disciples in class that ISKCON will be run by ritviks who will be elected every third year, what would have happened, all those neophyte leaders would have left for good immediately. And the whole movement guideless.

Prabhupada therefore left them this option to play guru in order to have his movement go on and by Krishna's arrangement, in future, things gradually become adjusted.

Prabhupada: Yes. What can be done? Ne mama che kana mama. “If there is no uncle, one blind uncle is all right.” So the matter is now clear. You do it and develop it.

Prabhupada knew that thousands of rank&file devotees would be sacrificed in this way, but to keep global ISKCON going there was no other choice than to sacifice devotees.

Prabhupada often compared the Sankirtan movement with declaring war to the material energy. Like a general Prabhupada wanted to win that war, and, at the beginning of the global Lord Caitanya Sankirtan Movement era, had to sacrifice a contingent of devotees in order to keep these leaders motivated to go on turning ISKCON into a solid global movement.

And as soon the global Sankirtan movement is firmly implanted, the purificatory process will start and rectify the deviants. As we see, nothing to panic, it is gradually happening.

In 1977 when Prabhupada left, global ISKCON was still a new movement,  dangling on a string and without leadership ISKCON would have disappeared very quickly. Remember Prabhupada explaining how difficult it is to bring bhagavat-dharma to the West, how so many failed?

As we see  ISKCON survived and by Krishna's arrangement will gradually become free from deviation.

ys

Rammohan das

[Paul M Lynch]

Where do you come up with these ideas? 

Please dont rewrite history as Rupanuga prabhu never once left Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON or association ever! To this day he is still a dear and true follower of His Divine Grace and lives his life as such. His fall from sanyas was more like a bleep in his Krsna consciousness not a bloop . Srila Prabhupada kept him engaged in his position as GBC and told him that " at least you are an honest man" His service to Srila Prabhupada never stopped, he just changed ashrams one day and kept serving Srila Prabhupada the next. He never resigned his position as GBC nor did Srila Prabhupada want that he be replaced! Srila Prabhupada very much liked him and kept him just where he was, a leader in the society . It wasnt  until well after Srila  Prabhupada went into samadi, some time in the 90's when he realized he could no-longer reform nor work with the corrupt ISKCON . It was out of overwhelming  disgust from what he, as an insider, must have had privy to that he finally had enough and resigned his position as GBC.  Do you even know who Rupangua prabhu is or are you just lumping him in with all the rest?  Please get your facts right before you say things as if you actually know what you are talking about. 

Your worthless servant

Palaka das

[rainer hahn]

Thanks Palaka!

Never noticed that you are on this forum.

But please stop these argumentum ad hominem karmi style type of reasoning!

We all don't know each other personally. Simply stick to the topic and present proof based on Prabhupada.

I'm not presenting any ideas.
 
Prabhupada stated repeatedly that the leaders were not trustworthy.
So please read again what Prabhupada is saying in dozens of letters.

Prabhupada: "Some of my beloved disciples on whom I counted very, very much have been involved in this matter influenced by Maya. As such there has been some activity which I consider disrespectful. So I have decided to retire and divert attention to book writing and nothing more."

Rupanuga - we were told he blooped. Why are you stating this is wrong?
Where was Rupanuga when Prabhupada appointed the first eleven? Where was Rupanuga when Ramesvara went mad? Where was Rupanuga when Jayatirtha was selling drugs? Where was Rupanuga doing what?

[Paul Howard]

Thank you. I could just leave the association of devotees entirely -- I'm that upset -- but I've invested 15 years of my life trying to make this work. If I don't seek answers to the hard questions now, then out would only mean I've already given up. Being told I'm offensive for this just hurts, and is the kind of treatment one would expect from devotees who are insecure themselves but lack the courage to face their issues.

"rainer hahn" <raine...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Dear Prabhus, pamho AGTSP,
>
>Paul isnt offensive, he just wants answers. Meanwhile all over Europe,
>and
>these are thousands, 99% ex-ISKCONites joined the Gaudiya-matha,
>Narayana
>swami, Puri-maharaja.
>
>Not because they figured that those are better fired-up global
>preachers
>than Prabhupada. They know, Gaudiya-matha meant sitting in their guru's
>properties and fighting over right of ownership. But still, thousands
>left
>ISKCON to join there.
>
>Obviously, thousands of ex-ISKCONites did not get the right answer, why
>Prabhupada installed neophyte leadership, why Prabhupada did not say in
>class: I remain the diksa-guru for ISKCON!
>
>After Rupanuga, Karandhar, Revatinanda, Bali Mardan, Acyutananda,
>Syamasundara, Gargamuni, Nitai, Rajarama, and many other leaders of the
>early days had left, Prabhupada installed the second group of leaders,
>Bhagavan, Jayatirtha, TKG, Ramesvara, Harikes, etc etc.
>
>At this point Prabhupada knew, that his leaders would easily leave,
>were De
>Facto total neophytes. But how to deal with this? Prabhupada often
>mentioned, taking the risk.
>

>*Prabhupada: But he must know where to take risk and where to act
>foolishly.
>*

>
>For Prabhupada it was clear, the priority was to keep ISKCON going,
>even if
>this meant that there was a coup of taking over. "There will be men, I
>know.
>There will be men who want to try and pose themselves as Guru"
>(Bhavananda)
>
>Prabhupada knew that this might happen. But in this situation to
>clearly
>tell all his disciples in class that ISKCON will be run by ritviks who
>will
>be elected every third year, what would have happened, all those
>neophyte
>leaders would have left for good immediately. And the whole movement
>guideless.
>
>Prabhupada therefore left them this option to play guru in order to
>have his
>movement go on and by Krishna's arrangement, in future, things
>gradually
>become adjusted.
>

>*Prabhupada: Yes. What can be done? Ne mama che kana mama. “If there is

>no
>> uncle, one blind uncle is all right.” So the matter is now clear. You
>do it
>> and develop it.

>> *

[Bhaktatraveler]

Rupanuga was just as "OUT TO LUNCH" as the rest of the so-called leadership. He admitted he KNEW that Iskcon was moving to a DVD structure and never once in the temple I lived in(under his GBC tutelage) preached this division. Yes, where was he for those yrs?

Best to get a new litmus test other than sentimental nostalgia, these good old boys are the architects of Iskcon's demise. They were the disrespectful/sinister leadership. Wake up people! Them and their cheerleaders are the problem, not a solution.

Hare Krsna

RCB

---

From: rainer hahn <raine...@gmail.com>
To: istag...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sat, January 22, 2011 11:33:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Prabhupadanuga] Re: What would motivate a disciple to claim that Srila Prabhupada never makes any mistakes?

[Paul M Lynch]

Hare Krsna RCB

He admitted he knew to whom ? To you ? 

"So you.... What you Are going .... Very serious situation...."  Sound familiar ?

So what did you do RCB prabhu if you were so aware of all of these things as you now claim? Where were you all those years as you ask? 20/20 hindsight makes situations so much easier  but what were you doing yourself as a Prabhuada disciple to correct the problem? Ever wonder why Rupanuga's name was never put on the original list of 11 ? He was already acting as a ritvik in his duties as GBC , so why not put his name on the list too? Perhaps because it was TKG who all along was orchestrating and pushing his own agenda. In the last days,Srila Prabhupada attempted to get back  to the US . It was Gita Nagri where he wanted to come to and it's was under Rupanuga's GBC care at that time. If I recall and I have my history correct, it was TKG who somehow botched up Srila Prabhupada's passport thus frustrating the desire  of his to return to America and recover. Of course thinks concerning took an abrupt turn for the worse in London and Srila Prabhupada returned to india never to return to the states. He is not as out to lunch as you may claim but again what were you doing since you seem to know so much?

Y's

Pd

[Bhaktatraveler]

Please make you questions to me more plain. I'm kind of dull! What is it about my post you have contention with?

You want to know what I did? About what exactly? No DVD in IS-A-CON? I spoke out and asked why NOT! I was quelled, ostracized, ridiculed and ignored by a brainwashed congregation. Still nothing has changed!

RCB

---

From: Paul M Lynch <pml...@aol.com>
To: "istag...@googlegroups.com" <istag...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sun, January 23, 2011 8:17:44 AM
Subject: Re: [Prabhupadanuga] What would motivate a disciple to claim that Srila Prabhupada never makes any mistakes?

[Rakesh Sharma]

Dear Pandu prabhu,

Hare Krishna. Please accept my humble obeisances.  All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

Sorry it took so long to get back.  I don't think your analogy is appropriate in this case.  Rather an analogy of soldiers in the battle would be more appropriate. When a sargeant or captain became a casualty in WWII, sometimes the best available person would be promoted to fill that position, instead of waiting for someone "qualified" to be brought out to the front line, because of obvious emergent circumstances.  The newly promoted soldier may or may not have made mistakes, but you do what's needed under dire circumstances.  If Srila Prabhupada had waited for everyone to be completely qualified, I dont' think the movement would have expanded enough from NYC to down here in Gawgia, where people like me came in touch with it, what to speak of from India to the U.S.

Certainly, Srila Prabhupada knew he was taking risks and stated that in the NOD.  However by 1977, for instance, he became so disgusted that he stopped giving sannyasa.

Sincerely,

Rama Raghava Dasa

(Augusta, Ga)

---

From: Paul Howard <pandu1...@gmail.com>
To: istag...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 1:02:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Prabhupadanuga] Re: What would motivate a disciple to claim that Srila Prabhupada never makes any mistakes?

><istagosthi+unsub...@googlegroups.com>. For more options, go to

><http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi>.
>
>
>
>     
>
>--
>You have received this email because you are a member of the Google
>Prabhupadanuga Group. To post to our group for all the world to see,
>send an email to <istag...@googlegroups.com>. Getting too many
>emails? Please go to
><http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi/subscribe> and change your
>email settings, or request Pratyatosa Dasa (praty...@gmail.com) to
>change your settings for you. To cancel your membership, send an email

>to <istagosthi+unsub...@googlegroups.com>. For more options, go to

><http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi>.

--
Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

--
You have received this email because you are a member of the Google Prabhupadanuga Group. To post to our group for all the world to see, send an email to <istag...@googlegroups.com>. Getting too many emails? Please go to <http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi/subscribe> and change your email settings, or request Pratyatosa Dasa (praty...@gmail.com) to change your settings for you. To cancel your membership, send an email to <istagosthi+unsub...@googlegroups.com>. For more options, go to <http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi>.

[Spirit Soul 108]

Syamasundara Prabhu about Srila Prabhupada.

Srila Prabhupada, doesn't make any mistakes!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHVRR6hOFUI

[Pratyatosa]

Like I said before:

"Why is it that the ones who yell the loudest, "Look at me! I'm so great! I believe everything that Srila Prabhupada said without question," are the very ones who don't even have enough faith in Srila Prabhupada to follow his example by having 100% of their children via natural child birth at home, who don't even have enough faith in Srila Prabhupada's instructions to give 100% of their children a 100% gurukula/home schooled education, who don't even have enough faith in Srila Prabhupada's instructions to donate 50% of their income, and who don't even have enough faith in Srila Prabhupada's instructions to take vanaprastha at age 50?"

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa

[Sean Hartigan]

Being unable to follow these instructions does not mean they were a mistake.

--

[Pratyatosa]

Where did I say that they are/were mistakes? Straw-man argument.

None of these instructions are mistakes. But if you are unable to follow them, at least be a little bit humble. I have seen devotees over and over again, who can't even begin to follow these basic instructions, criticize those of us who do follow/have followed all of them. They try to puff themselves up by criticizing those of us who think that Srila Prabhupada sometimes, from a material point of view, made mistakes. Mistakes such as to misquote a verse or to call New Vrindaban, "New Virginia."

In that letter to Atreya Rsi, Srila Prabhupada said that even in the spiritual world, from a material point of view, mistakes are sometimes made.

Ys, Ptd

[Paul Howard]

We had all five kids born at home, and they're homeschooled, but to give 50% we'd have to sell our home and live in a van. That sounds a lot like vanaprastha, but I'm not even 40 yet and have little kids.

--
Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com> wrote:

--

[Paul Howard]

Well I say it was a mistake for Srila Prabhupada to leave in charge the people he did. These people have made so many obstacles interfering with my relationship with Srila Prabhupada. It's not even a little mistake; it's a deal-breaker until it's somehow fixed. Until then I will take it as indication that Srila Prabhupada does not care about me or my attempts at service, because that is how it feels.

--
Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com> wrote:

--

[Pratyatosa]

5 homescholled kids, all born at home! Wonderful! Girls? Boys?

Grhasthas should make lots of money so that they can support themselves and the other 3 asramas nicely. For me, that ruled out living independently in the country. It meant living in Brooklyn where rent was cheap and working in Manhattan where wages were high, or living in Detroit where home prices were low and working in the suburbs. It also meant working for the largest companies, such as Con-Ed/CitiBank/GE in NYC and for Ford/General Motors in the Detroit area. Working for the largest companies means, not only the highest wages, but also, the best working conditions and the least pressure. The least pressure in the sense that, since I was working as a contract computer programmer, and since the companies were large, there were lots of other contract computer programmers, so there were not any unreasonable expectations placed upon me, and it was fairly easy to do an above average job.

Ys, Ptd

[Pratyatosa]

On Wed, Feb 23, 2011 at 11:49 AM, Paul Howard <pandu1...@gmail.com> wrote:

Well I say it was a mistake for Srila Prabhupada to leave in charge the people he did. These people have made so many obstacles interfering with my relationship with Srila Prabhupada. It's not even a little mistake; it's a deal-breaker until it's somehow fixed. Until then I will take it as indication that Srila Prabhupada does not care about me or my attempts at service, because that is how it feels.

I know what you mean, Prabhu. The same thoughts had crossed my mind several times in the past also. But who do you suggest as a replacement for those whom Srila Prabhupada left in charge? If you actually name someone, I can probably tell you why that would not have been a very good idea. Srila Prabhupada did the best with what he had. If he had told them flatly, "You cannot be diksa gurus within ISKCON after I leave my body," many of them would have become discouraged. As it was/is, they all worked/are working very hard, and they did, and are still doing, a fairly good job of keeping ISKCON together and of not losing very many properties.

If we think of ourselves as sacrificial lambs with the primary goal of preparing the Hare Krishna Movement for going on nicely for the next 10,000 years, then the sacrifice that many of us have had to make doesn't seem so bad. This life is very short, and our remaining time in these material bodies is very limited, so let's make the best use of a bad bargain. Why waste our precious time in lamentation?

Do you think that the direct disciples of Jesus, on the material platform, had it easy after he left?

Devotees are only given a token punishment, so think of how much we would have suffered if we had not taken shelter of Srila Prabhupada!

Ys, Ptd

[David Sherk]

"From Me comes knowledge, rememberance and forgetfulness"  If you want to abandon Krishna Consciousness, rest assured a way will be created for you to do so. The demigods must get a good laugh out of all this petty stuff ,abit like prime time sitcoms.  Pardon my cynicism.                                                                              Gadai

--- On Wed, 2/23/11, Paul Howard <pandu1...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Paul Howard <pandu1...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Prabhupadanuga] Re: What would motivate a disciple to claim that Srila Prabhupada never makes any mistakes?