Who Is The Pig?
Shabati Äbuishneineh
Jack Garbuz wrote:
>
> Well, we must be grateful for that, but your whole religion is taken from
> our Books in the first place. And you did occupy our country.
Huh. That's funny. What did we take? That there is one God .... etc.
What about if there really is one God, what do you expect Him to say?
>
> The Jews betrayed the Christians, under whom they did languish, to help
> the Moors into the country.
How did that happen? They betrayed the Christians? Are you telling that
Jews got a Godly punishment in Europe? Interesting analysis. Can you
elaborate?
>The Moors gained a great deal from Jewish
> knowledge and business. Many Spanish names such as Toledo and Barcelona
> may be of Hebrew origin.
You missed Washington DC.
>There were Jews in Spain since before Roman
> times, and long before the Moors got there.
So you mean that Jews left the Holy Land by choice. Good. Keep going.
>
> Yes, the Romans prohibited Jews from living in Jerusalem and perhaps
> Saladin allowed them back. Nonetheless, you occupied our country.
How come no Jews volunteered with Salah Eddin (ARMY) to liberate
Palestine while they had vizier position in the Sultan & Co.
> While Kahana and Levinger might not be the epitome of that which is best
> in Judaism, they are the reaction to Arab violence going on since 1921
> against Jews resettling their land. When that violence ceases the Kahanes
> and the Levingers will be no more.
Yeah. Everything is because of the Arab violence. If an Israelite ass
stumbles in Beersheva, it is because the Arab's violence in Azza. Soon,
the Israelis will claim that their HIV is due to the Arabic violence.
> Most Jews don't like that type. But
Because they say what others have no courage to say. They say what they
believe in. You do not.
> that type shoots back when attacked, just like the last Jews of the
> Warsaw Ghetto.
--
Quran 25:63
"O avdeim HaRachom [Ha-Elheim] hem sh'halcheim al haadamah bianvtanot.
O eim hanibareim deevero lhem: hem omreim shalom"
Abusnaineh/ In Memory of Brother Shabati Zvi
Abu
HaChevroni
Jack Garbuz
Shabati Äbuishneineh <sne...@Reshet.Neged.Tsaion> wrote:
>I assume that every one is familiar with the case of the Zionist settler
>in Hebron who was distributing some literature printed in the Zionist
>prints in Kiryat Arba describing Mohammad as a pig.
>
>I am personally no astonished from this no incident. Rabbi Meir Kahana
>used to describe the Moslem Arabs as "dogs" and in his "CBS 60-Minuites"
>interview before they assassinated him, he declared that it is his God
>that instructed him to do and say thus.>
And I was very much against him at the time, having known him since 1968.
But now I'm not so sure. I booed him at a rally in Rehovot back in 1988
or so. Today, I would applaud him. He saw it as it is, unfortunately.
>Muslims will not regret preserving the Jewish literature all the way
>from Isfahan to Egypt. From The Genzah of Ibn Ezra alone -- in Egypt,
>more that 130,000 Jewish books were retrieved (later were stolen by
>Oxford), while at the very same time Pope Gregory IX was burning the
>Talmud and whatever his hand could reach in 1240 and 1242.>
Well, we must be grateful for that, but your whole religion is taken from
our Books in the first place. And you did occupy our country.
>We want to remind Jews, that it was only in Moor Spain, under the
>followers of Mohammad that Jews excelled and flourished, and only in
>Kosher-Style synagogues could they preserve their religion and history.
>It was ONLY in Islam that a Jew reached the post of Wazir (ruler) ...
>you know the vizier Shmuel Bin Nagdela, the ruler of Granada when Jews
>where languishing elsewhere.<
The Jews betrayed the Christians, under whom they did languish, to help
the Moors into the country. The Moors gained a great deal from Jewish
knowledge and business. Many Spanish names such as Toledo and Barcelona
may be of Hebrew origin. There were Jews in Spain since before Roman
times, and long before the Moors got there.
>It was Mohammad's follower Salah Eddin that lifted the prohibition on
>Jews from visiting their holy places in Jerusalem when he liberated it
>from the Occidental Crusaders.<
Yes, the Romans prohibited Jews from living in Jerusalem and perhaps
Saladin allowed them back. Nonetheless, you occupied our country.
>Jews have written the bulk of their literature from Mishne Torah ... to
>other poems of Ibn Gibrol and others in the language of Quran, the
>language of Islam and Mohammad.>
>And now comes a Russian Jews, in the name of Moses, who Muslims keep
>blessing him in the name of God, from nowhere to say Muhammad is a Pig.
>We do not feel sorry for meeting our obligations to the "People of the
>Book", but we feel sorry that the "People of the Book" are not meeting
>their obligation to their creator, to ethics, to humanity.>
>We are not going to regret. Allah and Mohammad instructed us to do what
>we have done and what we will do. While others choose to follow rabbis
>Kahana and Levinger, we will stick with the word of God.<
While Kahana and Levinger might not be the epitome of that which is best
in Judaism, they are the reaction to Arab violence going on since 1921
against Jews resettling their land. When that violence ceases the Kahanes
and the Levingers will be no more. Most Jews don't like that type. But
Jack Garbuz
Jack Garbuz
Alexander Kratkov
On 4 Jul 1997, Jack Garbuz wrote:
> Shabati =C4buishneineh <sne...@Reshet.Neged.Tsaion> wrote:
> >I assume that every one is familiar with the case of the Zionist settler
> >in Hebron who was distributing some literature printed in the Zionist
> >prints in Kiryat Arba describing Mohammad as a pig.
Yes I am familiar, astonished and disgust with this incident. However
the only thing that this case proves is that there some nutcases among
Jews. But that is true for every nation of the world.
>
>I am personally no astonished from this no incident. Rabbi Meir Kahana
>used to describe the Moslem Arabs as "dogs" and in his "CBS 60-Minuites"
>interview before they assassinated him, he declared that it is his God
>that instructed him to do and say thus.>
And how popular was Meir Kahana among Jews? I don't see any
implementations of his policies by Israeli government, otherwise there
would be no Palestinians in Israel.
>=20
> >We want to remind Jews, that it was only in Moor Spain, under the
> >followers of Mohammad that Jews excelled and flourished, and only in
> >Kosher-Style synagogues could they preserve their religion and history.
> >It was ONLY in Islam that a Jew reached the post of Wazir (ruler) ...
So what? Benjamin Disraeli was Prime Minister of Great Britain.
> >you know the vizier Shmuel Bin Nagdela, the ruler of Granada when Jews
> >where languishing elsewhere.<
I though that sultan is a supreme ruler and vizier is his
adviser/governor. And trust me, this Jew wasn't made a vizier as a favor
to the Jews. I am sure he was more than competent at his job.
Don't make something of this incident that it is not.
Alex.
HildaR1
Jack stop beating your head against the wall. You are fighting a paid
professional propagandist. There is no way you can win. He does this for
a living and in fact there is more than one of him. They look things up
and then bull session lies to build around all the messages in the ngs. I
had EMail conversations with some of them and even though the name may be
the same they are different people --did I say people I said it loosely
Hilda
BUSHBADEE
In article <Pine.A41.3.95.970703...@acis.mc.yu.edu>,
Alexander Kratkov <kra...@ymail.yu.edu> writes:
>
>Yes I am familiar, astonished and disgust with this incident. However
>the only thing that this case proves is that there some nutcases among
>Jews. But that is true for every nation of the world.
>
> >
Are you also ashamed and distgusted at the political cartoons that appear
about jews every say in arab newspapers.
Shame on you, You appologetic jew. You give jews a bad name.
You have nothing to appologize about even if she had not been a gentile.
What do you know about Mohammed.
I
> >>
> 1 she wasn't Jewish
> 2 she was right.
Thanks for your opinion, Bushbadee, but could you please elaborate?
>>
1
It is my understanding the woman is not Jewish. Thats the first thing
2Mohamid aside from being the phofit to the Moslems is a pig.
1 He was a thief.
He made his living stealing from caravans
2 He was a lier
He would come to a peace conference and slaughter those at the
conference.who had disarmmed.
His word could not be trusted.
3 He was a murderer and a murderer of Jews.
in One Jewish city that surrendered. He murdered alll the men and sold the
woman and children into slavery.
4 He was a pervert.
In his 70's he took a 7 year old girl as his bride.
5 He was a meglomaniac.
He thought himself the one true and final prophit of G-d. He murdered
anyone who disagreed with that.
King David also did some nasty things but he repented of them and atoned
for his sins. I have never heard of mohammed repenting or attoneing for of
any of the terrible things he did. He went to his death still doing
terrible things and tolerating terrible things being done in his name.
He was an early day Hitler in the number of people he killed and the
number of peoples lives he effected negitively and must certainly go down
as one of the 10 top tyrants of history
He left a terrible legacy after him of people fighting and killing large
numbers of people to decide who were his religious Heirs. To this day the
Sunni's and Sheites slaughter each other.
If people want to bow down and revere him that is their business and their
right. But you can not blame the rest of the world if they look asckance
at the Moslems choice of a role model.
Other than that he was ok
HildaR1
Do you really believe that Joseph was made second----notice second---not
first ---to the King was not out of love but for ability.
Rabbi Barry Albin
It is not helpful for the children of Abraham to fight. The pagan
Christians have shown us what the result of fighting each other leads to.
Muslims have never treated Jews as equals, but always better than the
Christians treated us.
If it were not for the Muslims saving us from the Spanish Inquisition,
the Sephardi learning along with the Zohar would have been lost.
What happened with portraying the great Gentile Prophet, Mohammed as a
swine is so reprehensible that it defies expression. However, to then
respond by portraying Netanyahu as a pig is worse. The one was done by a
crazy woman. The other was done on the command of Yassir Arafat.
The Palestinians are our cousins. Closer than the Arabs, they have hated
us since the beginning. It is time for them to return to Idumea from which
they came with there goy king, Herod.
Rabbi Barry Albin
Jack Garbuz
Rabbi Barry Albin <bar...@qni.com> wrote:
>It is not helpful for the children of Abraham to fight. The pagan
>Christians have shown us what the result of fighting each other leads to. Muslims have never treated Jews as equals, but always better than the
Christians treated us. <
Not in all cases; you should talk more to sephardic Jews in Israel about
that. The popes generally protected the Jews and most outbreaks of
pogroms were usually local affairs in most cases. At any rate, the
Protestants recognize the right of Israel to the Jews and see the
resurrection of the State of Israel as having been predicted by Jesus and
a necessary precursor to His return. And you should also read some of
what the Quran says about Jews to broaden your knowledge.
>If it were not for the Muslims saving us from the Spanish Inquisition,
>the Sephardi learning along with the Zohar would have been lost. <
There were Jews in Spain from the time of Jonah and the Pheonicians. IN
fact the Jews helped the Moors to come into Spain which is a major reason
for the Christian hatred for the Jews there. There is no question that
Moslems were far more receptive towards Jews who were quite beneficial to
them in their war against Christendom. But at the same time, Islam does
not accept the concept of a Jewish state at all, whereas Protestantism
not only accepts it but mandates it as a sign of the return of the Xtian
messiah.It was Protestant Zionism both in Britain and in the US that
helped to propel modern zionism forward.
>What happened with portraying the great Gentile Prophet, Mohammed as a
>swine is so reprehensible that it defies expression. However, to then
>respond by portraying Netanyahu as a pig is worse. The one was done by a
>crazy woman. The other was done on the command of Yassir Arafat. >
Rabbi it is clear that you have not lived in Israel for any length of
time nor do you properly guage the depth of hatred of the Arabs towards
the Jews. I lived in Israel for ten years and still didn't fully grasp it
till after the handshake with Yassir Arafat after which the murder of
Jews only escalated rather than receding.
>The Palestinians are our cousins. Closer than the Arabs, they have hated
>us since the beginning. It is time for them to return to Idumea from which they came with there goy king, Herod.<
You are now calling them Samaritans.SOme of them may well be but most are
Ishmaelites and I suspect they aren't going anywhere that you are sending
them to. What they should do is stay and become law abiding citizens of
Israel like most of the Israeli Arabs. They can then fight for civil
righst like any minority but not for national rights which they have no
right to on Jewish land.
George
Roberta Schuller wrote:
So, the Roberta Schuller is here :), good for you Abubu.
> As far as pagan is concerned, I do not thin that you are wrong.
thin = Think, right ?
> Believing in more than one God is not monotheism. Christians could not
> provide any evidence that Jesus was crucified neither did any other
> religion share them this belief. Worshiping a man (and his statue) is
> nothing but paganism.
Speake about stupid ideas. You say that we could not provide any
evidence that Jesus was crucified. Thats the dummiest thing I have ever
heard in my life, Mrs Roberta, its YOU who can't provide any, and I do
mean any proof that Jesus was not crucified. I would suggest that you go
to sri and see what they are saying about the issue, some of them say
that Jesus might have been crucified but not dead, some of them say that
Jesus was not crucified at all (all of these people ARE muslims). But we
have the historical support and the Gospel to tell everyone that Jesus
WAS crucified. It is you who should supply us with the proof, because
you are the only who is saying that history and the Gospels are wrong,
so you must provide your evidence. And the only thing you can provide is
the Koran, and nothing else.
> Roberta Schuller
I still don't believe that you are another person than Abubu, you know
why. Because you made a mistake in one of your posts where you replied
to on of my posts, and you spoke as if you were him, and you did the
terrible mistake of signing as Roberta Schuller, so I believe that you
are one person.
George
--
May the peace of God be with you;
Mt 10:13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if
it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.
j0...@netcom.com
Rabbi Barry Albin <bar...@qni.com> writes:
>It is not helpful for the children of Abraham to fight. The pagan
>Christians have shown us what the result of fighting each other leads to.
The pagan xn's are a precursour to the pagan arabs. I suggest you
drop the religious babble and address peace on the only terms
it can be maintained by: logic.
It is logic to not kill one another, cousins or not, "rav".
>Muslims have never treated Jews as equals, but always better than the
>Christians treated us.
Yeah? Well, then i guess your clan should want to run back to
the shetle because there were no bus bombs there.......Diviner of
logic.
>If it were not for the Muslims saving us from the Spanish Inquisition,
>the Sephardi learning along with the Zohar would have been lost.
My dear, the Muslims happened to suffer with *my* family the spaniards.
Not save them.
...But then, the spaniards {Y"S} did treat the Jews better than the
nazis {Y"S} .....but mayb not quite as nice as the norwegians [who
married us and made us bloooooooondes.... I guess the norwegians are
just right, like the bebe bear in the story.
>What happened with portraying the great Gentile Prophet, Mohammed as a
>swine is so reprehensible that it defies expression. However, to then
What happened to you?
>respond by portraying Netanyahu as a pig is worse. The one was done by a
>crazy woman. The other was done on the command of Yassir Arafat.
But! was it worse than the spanish {Y"S} inquisicion? Better than
the shoah? Is it nice to walk in the park on a Sunday afternoon?
Or is just Being There enough for you?
Do you actually have a group of people who listen to your prattle
on a weekly basis? Are they, like me, comedy buffs?
>The Palestinians are our cousins. Closer than the Arabs, they have hated
>us since the beginning. It is time for them to return to Idumea from which
>they came with there goy king, Herod.
0, sorry, the non-Arab, non-Muslim Palestinians....right and gotcha!
I love those guys! They arent as much fun at parties as the Muslim-
Arab-Palestinians tho, .....however, they are a great deal less fun
than a room full of nazim with an acordian..... Appearantly what you
are trying to tell us is that it is all relative, even apart from the
Arabs and Jews.
*Phew* glad i read this post!
-Rabbi joja
"appearantly anyone can take the title"
>Rabbi Barry Albin
NG trimmage:
alt.messianic,soc.culture.usa,talk.politics.mideast
Bry
On 5 Jul 1997 16:07:01 GMT, Rabbi Barry Albin <bar...@qni.com> wrote:
>It is not helpful for the children of Abraham to fight. The pagan
>Christians have shown us what the result of fighting each other leads to.
>Muslims have never treated Jews as equals, but always better than the
>Christians treated us.
>
>If it were not for the Muslims saving us from the Spanish Inquisition,
>the Sephardi learning along with the Zohar would have been lost.
If it wasn't for the British CHristians there would be NO state of
Israel today, you ignoramus!
>What happened with portraying the great Gentile Prophet, Mohammed as a
>swine is so reprehensible that it defies expression.
No doubt in your deep prejudice and yeshuaphobia, you will blame the
"Christians" for THAT too?
> However, to then
>respond by portraying Netanyahu as a pig is worse. The one was done by a
>crazy woman. The other was done on the command of Yassir Arafat.
>
>The Palestinians are our cousins. Closer than the Arabs, they have hated
>us since the beginning. It is time for them to return to Idumea from which
>they came with there goy king, Herod.
>
>Rabbi Barry Albin
Oh aren't YOU "Mr. Nice Guy" - I am glad that there are other rabbis
around who believe in ethics.
***********
B'tsedek tishpot amitecho
Lev 19:15 via Mishna Avot
You shall judge your neighbor
favourably.
Bry
On 5 Jul 1997 16:30:41 GMT, Jack Garbuz <JGA...@worldnet.att.net>
wrote:
>Rabbi Barry Albin <bar...@qni.com> wrote:
>>It is not helpful for the children of Abraham to fight. The pagan
>>Christians have shown us what the result of fighting each other leads to. Muslims have never treated Jews as equals, but always better than the
>Christians treated us. <
>
>Not in all cases; you should talk more to sephardic Jews in Israel about
>that. The popes generally protected the Jews and most outbreaks of
>pogroms were usually local affairs in most cases. At any rate, the
>Protestants recognize the right of Israel to the Jews and see the
>resurrection of the State of Israel as having been predicted by Jesus and
>a necessary precursor to His return. And you should also read some of
>what the Quran says about Jews to broaden your knowledge.
Yes, he should try living in Morocco, Tunisia or perhaps Libya
and then yell about how the Muslims are so much nicer to the Jews!
Haim Guivon
<b...@mnsinc.com> writes:
> > However, to then respond by portraying Netanyahu as a pig
is worse.
> >Rabbi Barry Albin
================================================================
Laughing is good for my system (says my doctor).
I have other smiling statements to make, on the same vein as
the distinguished rabbi above:
- Jesus was an ass. But Ehud Barak is a bigger one.
- Buddha was a dog. But Yossi Sarid is worse.
- Hussein Ali (bahai prophet) was a rooster. But the Rav Ravitz
is a bigger one.
Conclusion (not mine, but logical unavoidable): A prophet is
nothing but a politician.
etc, etc.
Haim
================================================================
Shabati Zvi Äbuishneineh
George wrote:
>
> Roberta Schuller wrote:
>
> So, the Roberta Schuller is here :), good for you Abubu.
>
> > As far as pagan is concerned, I do not thin that you are wrong.
>
> thin = Think, right ?
>
> > Believing in more than one God is not monotheism. Christians could not
> > provide any evidence that Jesus was crucified neither did any other
> > religion share them this belief. Worshiping a man (and his statue) is
> > nothing but paganism.
>
> Speake about stupid ideas. You say that we could not provide any
> evidence that Jesus was crucified. Thats the dummiest thing I have ever
> heard in my life, Mrs Roberta, its YOU who can't provide any, and I do
> mean any proof that Jesus was not crucified. I would suggest that you go
> to sri and see what they are saying about the issue, some of them say
> that Jesus might have been crucified but not dead, some of them say that
> Jesus was not crucified at all (all of these people ARE muslims). But we
> have the historical support and the Gospel to tell everyone that Jesus
> WAS crucified. It is you who should supply us with the proof, because
Jews acknowledged committing almost all kinds of sins in the Talmud, and
some were worse than killing a man. They did not acknowledge killing
Jesus. Muslims do not believe so either. Your Pope provided an
explanation (can you tell me more about it?), and finally your Gospels
were written HUNDREDS of years after Allah raised Jesus to heaven, with
conflicting versions.
Shabati Zvi Äbuishneineh
Chaim.
You took Palestine in the name of God and prophets. If they're no good
how can the blue-eyed Occidentals Jews claim Palestine?
el...@earthlink.net
Rabbi Barry Albin <bar...@qni.com> wrote:
>It is not helpful for the children of Abraham to fight.
ESPECIALLY by denying Revealed Truth.
> The pagan
>Christians have shown us what the result of fighting each other leads to.
>Muslims have never treated Jews as equals, but always better than the
>Christians treated us.
>
>If it were not for the Muslims saving us from the Spanish Inquisition,
>the Sephardi learning along with the Zohar would have been lost.
But the Knowledge Revealed in the Zohar has, on the whole, been
rejected by the religious officials of Judaism.
>
>What happened with portraying the great Gentile Prophet, Mohammed as a
>swine is so reprehensible that it defies expression.
Not really. It is merely a clear manifestation of Judaism's rejection
of the Revelations received by Mohammed.
> However, to then
>respond by portraying Netanyahu as a pig is worse.
Not it isn't. Mohammed received Revelations from God--that he was
Elijah and John the Baptist 'raised from the dead', for example.
Netanyahu has NEVER received Revelations. Netanyahu is NOT a
prophet.
Certainly, this is not *helpful*; but it is NOT "worse".
> The one was done by a
>crazy woman. The other was done on the command of Yassir Arafat.
>
>The Palestinians are our cousins. Closer than the Arabs, they have hated
>us since the beginning. It is time for them to return to Idumea from which
>they came with there goy king, Herod.
On the contrary, it is time for the rabbis to recognize the Truths
Revealed in the Koran. This would go a LONG way toward resolving
these other fundamentally superficial conflicts in the Middle East.
>
>Rabbi Barry Albin
Michael
>
el...@earthlink.net
Rabbi Barry Albin <bar...@qni.com> wrote:
>What happened with portraying the great Gentile Prophet, Mohammed as a
>swine is so reprehensible that it defies expression.
If it is "reprehensible" to caricature the "Gentile Prophet Mohammed"
as a swine, it is ALSO reprehensible to reject the Revelations he
received:
It is REPREHENSIBLE for the rabbis to deny that Jesus was the messiah,
as Revealed in the Koran.
It is REPREHENSIBLE for the rabbis to continue to teach that the
Doctrine of the "resurrection of the dead" is a physical resurrection
when it is similar to the doctrine of 'reincarnation'.
It is REPREHENSBLE for the rabbis to deny that Mohammed was Elijah
and John the Baptist 'raised from the dead'>
My guess, however, is that you are merely playing POLITICS with
Revealed Truth. But you cannot be luikewarm with Mohammed any more
than you can be lukewarm with Jesus.
To you this storm cloud about the size of a fist on the horizon
may very well bring you rain. But untless you rabbis STOP playing
politics with Revealed Truth, it will result in ANNIHILATION.
For the CHRISTIANS to say that Mohammed is the "anti-Christ" should
at LEAST be an indication to you rabbis that, maybe, Mohammed is not
so bad after all.
But, if Mohammed was NOT a prophet, then he DESERVES to be caricatured
as a pig--or even WORSE, as is anyone who claims to have received
Revelations from God but who has not.
Michael
Allah
It's MO "HAM" MED the prophet of SATAN or if you prefer ALLAH.
MED is the three first letters of demon if reversed or read as arabs
usually read from right to left.
HAM is the best part of the PIG meat.
MO is for Moskey.
MOHAMMED is no more than the demon chosing the PIG as beast living
in the house or demon ALLAH (the Moskey).
STUPID ARE THOSE INSULTED BY THIS DESCRIPTION OF A FALSE PROPHET
of ALLAH the satanic GOD.
el...@earthlink.net a écrit dans l'article
<5poam6$e...@ecuador.earthlink.net>...
> Rabbi Barry Albin <bar...@qni.com> wrote:
>
> >It is not helpful for the children of Abraham to fight.
>
> ESPECIALLY by denying Revealed Truth.
>
> > The pagan
> >Christians have shown us what the result of fighting each other leads
to.
> >Muslims have never treated Jews as equals, but always better than the
> >Christians treated us.
> >
> >If it were not for the Muslims saving us from the Spanish Inquisition,
> >the Sephardi learning along with the Zohar would have been lost.
>
> But the Knowledge Revealed in the Zohar has, on the whole, been
> rejected by the religious officials of Judaism.
> >
> >What happened with portraying the great Gentile Prophet, Mohammed as a
> >swine is so reprehensible that it defies expression.
>
George
Shabati Zvi =C4buishneineh wrote:
> Jews acknowledged committing almost all kinds of sins in the Talmud,
> and
> some were worse than killing a man. They did not acknowledge killing
> Jesus. Muslims do not believe so either. Your Pope provided an
> explanation (can you tell me more about it?), and finally your Gospels
> were written HUNDREDS of years after Allah raised Jesus to heaven,
> with
> conflicting versions.
Abubu, I have no idea were you get your info from. But let me tell you
some basic things about the Gospels, they were not written HUNDREDS (as
you put it) of years after Jesus, infact all 4 of them was written
before 100AD. You siad "Your Pope" are you talking about the Orthodox
Pope (El-Papa Shenouda) or the Catholic Pope (Just to know where to look
for his explanation), and what did he say, I am sure what ever it was it
can not be "Jesus was not crucified". All of the Disciples of Jesus are
witnesses for that, and in many parts of the NT (New Testament) we see
them talking about the Crucifixion, and that the Jews crucified Jesus,
even your Koran says so. When you wrote this sentence "They did not
acknowledge killing Jesus." if this is true, that they did not
acknowledge that they killed Jesus then why does the Koran accuses them
of saying that they DID kill Jesus;
[4.157] And their saying: Surely we have killed =
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^******
the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the =
***********************************
apostle of Allah; and they did not kill =
****************
him nor did they crucify him, but it =
appeared to them so (like Isa) and most =
surely those who differ therein are only =
in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge =
respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, =
and they killed him not for sure.
So if they donnot acknowledge that they killed/crucified Jesus, then why
does the Koran accuses them of saying so ????????
If the Koran is true, then they DID say they killed Jesus, But Allah
substituted Jesus with someone else, and made all of them see him as
Jesus, even his (Jesus') Disciples saw the man as Jesus and they went
spreading this news to all the nations. So the Crucifixion (even if we
took the words of the Koran for it) DID happen, and people saw the
crucified person as Jesus, and if you are true that they never
acknowledge the fact that they crucified or killed Jesus then the Koran
is mistaken when he accuses them of saying so, when YOU say that they
don't :). So the Crucifixion DID happen, but the thing we dispute about
is that you say it wasn't Jesus and we say it was Jesus. So go read your
Koran first, understand it while you are reading it, then come and
argue.
George
-- =
Stephen Liddell
On Sat, 05 Jul 1997 17:06:22 -0500, Roberta Schuller
<rsch...@No.Spam.Net> wrote:
>Rabbi Barry Albin wrote:
>>
>> It is not helpful for the children of Abraham to fight. The pagan
>> Christians have shown us what the result of fighting each other leads to.
>> Muslims have never treated Jews as equals, but always better than the
>> Christians treated us.
>
>As far as pagan is concerned, I do not thin that you are wrong.
>Believing in more than one God is not monotheism. Christians could not
>provide any evidence that Jesus was crucified neither did any other
>religion share them this belief. Worshiping a man (and his statue) is
>nothing but paganism.
Though I can understand why others could label Christians as being
pagan, personally I don't think this is the case. Christians only
believe in one God, the God of the Jews and of the Muslims. What is
the name of the other Gods we worship? What more evidence is needed
for a Christian to believe in the crucifixition than the New
Testament? Part of the faith is that you accept your holy scriptures
and our scriptures stress the crucifiction. If you don't believe in
it then there is no compulsion to be Christian. As there are only 3
(or as you might say, 2) true monotheist religions and of those, 50%
ie Judaism predates Christianity then I am not too worried by other
religions lack of acknowledgement by other religions. Each religion
has its own unique aspects which the others have chosen to reject or
ignore and that is why they are different.
All the Christians I know, including myself, only worship God.
Likewise there are accusations that Muslims are polytheist due to the
attention paid to Muhammad, the Kaaba and even the Angels of Allah but
I think that too is only out of ignorance of the religion and Islam is
also a true monotheist religion. Perhaps you should read about
Christianity a bit more so that you can atleast criticise it
truthfully and for what Christians believe in and not for what we
don't.
Also if I may comment about the Rabbi's message, I think to a large
extent he is correct about the Jews and Muslims. Certainly for around
1,000 years Muslim lands were much better for Jews than Christian ones
but it is clear that in recent years the Christian lands have been
more than a little helpful in pushing the Zionist cause. As someone
else has already said, to many Christians, the establishment of Israel
is seen as a pre-cursor to the second coming. I don't mean to be
disrespectful but I would have hoped that a Rabbi would have a more
learned view of events.
Having a founder of such an important religion as Islam portrayed as a
pig is obviously very offensive, even if it was done by a crazed old
woman. If the Israeli President was portrayed as a pig by the PA then
that too is morally offensive but not on the same level as the
Muhammad one as I would think that Muhammad is infinately more
important to Muslims than the President is to Jews even if it is
totally irresponcable for Yasser (or his henchmen) to start
name-calling like this. I remember thinking that one of the few
things Saddam Hussein may have been correct on was when he called the
British PM Thatcher and stupid old mad cow!
Stephen Liddell
A monothesitic, secular Christian and proud of it.
Shabati Zvi Äbuishneineh
Stephen Liddell wrote:
>
> On Sat, 05 Jul 1997 17:06:22 -0500, Roberta Schuller
> <rsch...@No.Spam.Net> wrote:
>
> >Rabbi Barry Albin wrote:
> >>
> >> It is not helpful for the children of Abraham to fight. The pagan
> >> Christians have shown us what the result of fighting each other leads to.
> >> Muslims have never treated Jews as equals, but always better than the
> >> Christians treated us.
> >
>
> >As far as pagan is concerned, I do not thin that you are wrong.
> >Believing in more than one God is not monotheism. Christians could not
> >provide any evidence that Jesus was crucified neither did any other
> >religion share them this belief. Worshiping a man (and his statue) is
> >nothing but paganism.
>
> Though I can understand why others could label Christians as being
> pagan, personally I don't think this is the case.
You are correct when you said (personally). Christians are not but
pagans. Worshipers of a man.
> Christians only
> believe in one God, the God of the Jews and of the Muslims.
So what was/is Jesus?
> What is
> the name of the other Gods we worship?
You mean you do not call Jesus "the lord"?
> What more evidence is needed
> for a Christian to believe in the crucifixition than the New
> Testament?
Either one of the following:
1. Acknowledgment of others (Jews) that they killed Jesus or
2. Ann authentication of the New Testament.
> Part of the faith is that you accept your holy scriptures
> and our scriptures stress the crucifiction.
How many, who, when, where,... these scripts were written and in what
language? How much do they differ and why? What about other scripts that
were found (Barnabas) and contradicted the HUNDREDS of other scripts
that were all destroyed?
>If you don't believe in
> it then there is no compulsion to be Christian.
That is not the history of the Catholics of Spain in the 15th century.
It was either the sword or conversion for both Jews and Muslims.
> As there are only 3
> (or as you might say, 2) true monotheist religions and of those, 50%
> ie Judaism predates Christianity then I am not too worried by other
> religions lack of acknowledgement by other religions. Each religion
> has its own unique aspects which the others have chosen to reject or
> ignore and that is why they are different.
>
> All the Christians I know, including myself, only worship God.
So do pray to God or "the lord Jesus" whenn you go to Church?
> Likewise there are accusations that Muslims are polytheist due to the
> attention paid to Muhammad,
Because we say (peace be on him)? We do that when we mention all the
Jewish prophets and Jesus.
Mohammad's name was mentioned only 4 (FOUR) times in the Quran as
opposed to 29 times for Jesus and 165 times for Moses!!!
>the Kaaba
We are asked to visit it once in our life time if and only if
financially and physically capable!
> and even the Angels of Allah but
This is a now saga for me. What do you mean by that. Up to my knowledge
Christians believe in Angels too with some differences as to their
nature.
> I think that too is only out of ignorance of the religion and Islam is
> also a true monotheist religion.
Islam is Islam. Period.
> Perhaps you should read about
> Christianity a bit more so that you can atleast criticise it
> truthfully and for what Christians believe in
I have a "Diploma" in "the holy bible" , New Testament. I obtained it in
1976. Maybe I need to "refresh" my memories.
>and not for what we
> don't.
>
> Also if I may comment about the Rabbi's message, I think to a large
> extent he is correct about the Jews and Muslims. Certainly for around
> 1,000 years Muslim lands were much better for Jews than Christian ones
> but it is clear that in recent years the Christian lands have been
> more than a little helpful in pushing the Zionist cause.
Stalin (the Christian) Massacred over 20,000,000
Hitler (the Christian) massacred over 12,000,000
Spanish Inquisition - Christians massacred over 2,000,000
Blacks en route to their Christian lords --- over 20,000,000 perished
The White Christian European man massacred over 3,000,000 Indians
I will complete the list once I get your response that Christians are
the bloodiest of any other religion that people ever knew since Adam.
> As someone
> else has already said, to many Christians, the establishment of Israel
> is seen as a pre-cursor to the second coming. I don't mean to be
> disrespectful but I would have hoped that a Rabbi would have a more
> learned view of events.
>
> Having a founder of such an important religion as Islam portrayed as a
> pig is obviously very offensive, even if it was done by a crazed old
Did you conduct a "psychological assessment" on her to determine that
she is "crazed"? If not what gives you the legitimacy to dub her crazed?
HIPRS-- SM Shabati
xt...@canet.ca
In article <33beeb69...@news1.mnsinc.com>,
> >>It is not helpful for the children of Abraham to fight. The pagan
> >>Christians have shown us what the result of fighting each other leads to. Muslims have never treated Jews as equals, but always better than the
> >Christians treated us. <
> >
> >that. The popes generally protected the Jews and most outbreaks of
> >pogroms were usually local affairs in most cases. At any rate, the
> >Protestants recognize the right of Israel to the Jews and see the
> >resurrection of the State of Israel as having been predicted by Jesus and
> >a necessary precursor to His return. And you should also read some of
> >what the Quran says about Jews to broaden your knowledge.
>
> Yes, he should try living in Morocco, Tunisia or perhaps Libya
> and then yell about how the Muslims are so much nicer to the Jews!
>
> ***********
> B'tsedek tishpot amitecho
> Lev 19:15 via Mishna Avot
> You shall judge your neighbor
> favourably.
Our biggest mistake was being nice to the Jews ... The Jews are the
enemies of Islam and should be treated as such.
Holy Quran Chapter 5 Verse 85:
"Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews
and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou
find those who say We are Christians : because amongst these are men
devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world and they are not
arrogant. "
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
George
Shabati Zvi =C4buishneineh wrote:
> =
> Stephen Liddell wrote:
> >
[snip]
> You are correct when you said (personally). Christians are not but
> pagans. Worshipers of a man.
Don't speak of things you don't even know about. You probably don't even
know about your own religion, or else you wouldn't have lied many times
before about your religion, and say it was for a good reason, does you
religion tells you the same ?
=
> > Christians only
> > believe in one God, the God of the Jews and of the Muslims.
> =
> So what was/is Jesus?
I have to differ with Mr Stephen, we don't worship the god of Islam,
since in the point of view of the Gospel and Christian point of view,
Muhammad was a false prophet and Islam is a fake religion. But for your
question about Who is Jesus. Read your Koran which tells us that he is
the Massi7 (Messiah) and in the Gospel according to John Jesus is the
Word and The Word was with God and the Word IS God (John 1:1).
> > What is
> > the name of the other Gods we worship?
> =
> You mean you do not call Jesus "the lord"?
We do. But you missed the point. Jesus and the Holy Spirit and God are
ONE :) in the Christian doctrine.
> > What more evidence is needed
> > for a Christian to believe in the crucifixition than the New
> > Testament?
> =
> Either one of the following:
> 1. Acknowledgment of others (Jews) that they killed Jesus or
> 2. Ann authentication of the New Testament.
So the Jews doesn't say that they killed Jesus, funny, you again show
your ignorance about your Koran, let me teach you a few things about the
Koran. In the Koran JEW DID SAY THEY KILLED JESUS, want a verse ? here
is the verse;
[4.157] And their saying: Surely we have killed =
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^******
the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the =
***********************************
apostle of Allah; and they did not kill =
****************
him nor did they crucify him, but it =
appeared to them so (like Isa) and most =
surely those who differ therein are only =
in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge =
respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, =
and they killed him not for sure.
If they as you say doesn't say that they killed Jesus then why does the
god of Islam accuses them of doing so ? Is the Koran in mistake here, or
are you. If the Koran at mistake here then, nothing more to say. But if
the Koran is true (which is what you *must* say) then the Jews *did* say
that they killed Jesus. And hence according to your words, we have
achieved one of your conditions, which is the Acknowledgment of the Jews
that they killed Jesus (thats if the Koran was not in mistake :)
> > Part of the faith is that you accept your holy scriptures
> > and our scriptures stress the crucifiction.
> =
> How many, who, when, where,... these scripts were written and in what
> language? How much do they differ and why? What about other scripts
> that
> were found (Barnabas) and contradicted the HUNDREDS of other scripts
> that were all destroyed?
They don't differ in the crucifixion, be sure of that. The other
questions are not relevant, unless you want to bring your lies from the
Gospel of Barnabas ( remember that one ;)
> >If you don't believe in
> > it then there is no compulsion to be Christian.
> =
> That is not the history of the Catholics of Spain in the 15th century.
> It was either the sword or conversion for both Jews and Muslims.
In every religion, faith and race there are the bad examples, do you
want me to recite to you what is going on in the name of Islam right
now, or in the history of Egypt ? Should we take this as an exmple of
Islam itself or the individuals who did these crimes ?
> > As there are only 3
> > (or as you might say, 2) true monotheist religions and of those, 50%
> > ie Judaism predates Christianity then I am not too worried by other
> > religions lack of acknowledgement by other religions. Each religion
> > has its own unique aspects which the others have chosen to reject or
> > ignore and that is why they are different.
> >
> > All the Christians I know, including myself, only worship God.
> =
> So do pray to God or "the lord Jesus" whenn you go to Church?
Abubu again, shows his ignorance about Chrisitanity, didn't we tell you
that Jesus is God too (the Trinity, remember that ?)
> > Likewise there are accusations that Muslims are polytheist due to
> the
> > attention paid to Muhammad,
> =
> Because we say (peace be on him)? We do that when we mention all the
> Jewish prophets and Jesus.
> Mohammad's name was mentioned only 4 (FOUR) times in the Quran as
> opposed to 29 times for Jesus and 165 times for Moses!!!
No, I can and will elaborate about this issue, if you continued your
lies about Christianity, you asked me before to stop attacking Islam,
while I was defending Christianity from you, now I will bring some truth
(not lies like you) about Islam and the Koran and Muhammad, were we will
see very strange things, like Muhammed above the law of God, Muhammad
being influenced by the Shaitan, by the way all of them are from the
Koran :).
> > I think that too is only out of ignorance of the religion and Islam
> is
> > also a true monotheist religion.
> =
> Islam is Islam. Period.
Yeah, yeah yeah.
> > Perhaps you should read about
> > Christianity a bit more so that you can atleast criticise it
> > truthfully and for what Christians believe in
> =
> I have a "Diploma" in "the holy bible" , New Testament. I obtained it
> in
> 1976. Maybe I need to "refresh" my memories.
Was this before or after the Sanity test ? But you sure do need to
refresh your memory, and take a real diploma, and try to find a cure for
your lying nature.
> Stalin (the Christian) Massacred over 20,000,000
Stalin a Christian !!!! I might be wrong but wasn't he a pagan, a one
who doesn't believe in God at all. =
> Hitler (the Christian) massacred over 12,000,000
I am sure he did this in the name of Christianity, and of course since
we discussed this before, you will reply (as you did before) that his
sign had a shape like the cross, and I will repeat my reply which you
didn't reply, that even the devil worshippers have the sign of the
inverted cross, does this mean that they are follwoing the Christian
teachings ;D ?
> Spanish Inquisition - Christians massacred over 2,000,000
Again, I know not about this one.
> Blacks en route to their Christian lords --- over 20,000,000 perished
Which was again made in teh name of Christianity.
> The White Christian European man massacred over 3,000,000 Indians
And this one too of course. Get a life Abubu, you lies are begining to
be very disgusting man/woman (Roberta)
> I will complete the list once I get your response that Christians are
> the bloodiest of any other religion that people ever knew since Adam.
I should ask you this, since you are very good in numbers, how many did
Muhammed massacred, and killed.
Can you say that Islam was not spread by the Sword. Do you want me to
bring all the verses where you are asked to kill in the Koran, and by
god ?
> HIPRS-- SM Shabati
I will start a thread very soon. To show you some truth.
Jack Garbuz
>Chaim.
>You took Palestine in the name of God and prophets. If they're no good
>how can the blue-eyed Occidentals Jews claim Palestine?>
God used the atheists the way the farmer uses manure. But what counts
ultimately is the crops or fruit. Of course, in the New Testament, Jesus
says that we would have a sign of His coming when the fig tree (Israel)
would be in bloom; however He cursed the fig tree that it would bear no
fruit. So the fact that Israel produces no spiritual fruit in this day
and age is not surprising to a Christian fundamentalist scholar,
Nonetheless, whether most of its inhabitants are believers or not, God;s
Will will be done either way.
BUSHBADEE
In article <5pog31$3...@argentina.earthlink.net>, el...@earthlink.net
writes:
>Subject: Re: Who Is The Pig?
>From: el...@earthlink.net
>Date: 6 Jul 1997 16:11:13 GMT
>
>Rabbi Barry Albin <bar...@qni.com> wrote:
>
>
The End of The Seventh Day, The Eighth Day
By Bushbadee
It was a long day.
The seventh day of the week.
Gods days were many of man's years.
It was the eighth day and God stirred from his 7th day of rest and the
world trembled.
It had been a long rest.
As god stirred, he perceived all the earth.
He had expected to hear prayers rising to him from his Holy Temple, but
heard non.
He looked down at earth to see how his chosen people had faired during his
rest.
Strange sights greeted him, sights God had not expected to see.
There were strange people all around, and on, his Temple Mount.
His Holy Temple was no where to be seen.
There were strange prayers going up, to whom he was not sure, from his
Temple Mount.
The world was rife with turmoil.
He saw busses and theaters being bombed, children being murdered all in
his name.
He saw people trying to steal the land from those he had given it to, as
caretakers, to make it flourish and grow.
His anger began to rise.
He heard, things he knew to be lies from strangers who claimed the land
was theirs.
People willing to kill children and innocents and even their own, to steal
it, and who claimed to do this, in his name.
People who had settled in the land while he rested, now claiming it as
their own.
He looked down on Jerusalem, to see his beautiful temple and found it
destroyed and gone.
His anger rose more and the earth began to shake.
There on his mount he saw a strange temple with a golden roof , he
remembered the golden calf..
People with hate in their hearts and praying to strange Gods and
worshipping prophets he had no knowledge of.
Prophets who claimed to have faced him and talked to him.
He had talked to no one, he had rested on his sabbath day.
He gave a wisp of breath and a typhoon raged on the Temple Mount .
Every thing and every one on the mount was swept away, till the mount was
flat and clear.
He called to the stones that had formed his temple and told them to come
back home.
From building all around, from beneath the ground from far and wide the
stones rose and came flying through the air and assembled them selves as
they had stood 2000 years ago.
He called to the cedars of Lebanon and told them to become timbers in his
temples. The wood of the trees came flying at Gods command, formed
themselves in to beams and settled into their places to form the roof of
the temple.
He called to his Ark of The Covenant and told it to take it's rightful
place in his temple and it came from its hiding place, on the wings of the
cherubim, and came to rest in the Holy of Holies.
Other things, carpets, perfumes, furniture and many other inanimate items
came to offer themselves to the service of the God of all.
In the end the temple stood gleaming on the mount in all its former glory.
He next looked to the land and saw the new false Caananites who had come
into the land to claim it with false claims.
He, in a voice that could be heard around the world, told them to leave or
he would do to them what had , had happened to the original caananites who
had occupied the land before they heard the trumpet of Joshua.
In fear and trembling these strangers in the land gathered their
belongings and families and started their journeys back to their origonal
home lands, for they now knew and feared the power of the Lord
He had, had problems with the Hebrews before, with their Golden Calf.
He turned to them and said , “who will live under my wing of protection
and will follow my Covenants, You may stay”.
To the others he said, "You are still my people but you fill me with
sadness. You must go and live with the Heathens. When you are ready to
follow my covenant once again I will welcome you back to My holy land”.
He looked down on the Black Ethiopians who were in his land and said " I
am glad that you are back from you sojourn with the queen.
God then called to the river Sam Bott Yon. This was the river that roiled
boulders as big as houses and raged on the six days of the week and on
the seventh, the Sabbath rested.
This was the river that had imprisoned the ten lost tribes.
For they could not cross it during the week when it roiled and raged and
could not cross it on the Sabbath which they still held holy.
God told the river “It is time for you to rest and be calm “, and the
river ceased to roil and rage and became placid.
The Ten lost tribes of Israel seeing the river calm, knew God wanted their
exile to end, and it was time for them to return home.
They gathered their families and goods, and started their long trip home
from their exile far , far away.
No one on their long trip home dared to interfere with them for all knew
it was God calling his people home.
They returned in safety and comfort to their former homes in Israel and
Judah.
Others in exile who were willing to keep God’s commandments also started
for home to the land God had given to them so many eons ago.
The Jews were finally able to live, work and play in peace and safety in
their own land .
And God looked down from Heaven and saw that his work was good.
c 1997 by BUSHBADEE
Stephen Liddell
On Sun, 06 Jul 1997 21:46:48 -0500, Shabati Zvi Äbuishneineh
<sne...@Reshet.Neged.Tsaion> wrote:
>Stephen Liddell wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, 05 Jul 1997 17:06:22 -0500, Roberta Schuller
>> <rsch...@No.Spam.Net> wrote:
>>
>> >Rabbi Barry Albin wrote:
>> >>
>> >> It is not helpful for the children of Abraham to fight. The pagan
>> >> Christians have shown us what the result of fighting each other leads to.
>> >> Muslims have never treated Jews as equals, but always better than the
>> >> Christians treated us.
>> >
>>
>> >As far as pagan is concerned, I do not thin that you are wrong.
>> >Believing in more than one God is not monotheism. Christians could not
>> >provide any evidence that Jesus was crucified neither did any other
>> >religion share them this belief. Worshiping a man (and his statue) is
>> >nothing but paganism.
>>
>> Though I can understand why others could label Christians as being
>> pagan, personally I don't think this is the case.
>
>
>You are correct when you said (personally). Christians are not but
>pagans. Worshipers of a man.
Its nice to see that you are speaking from a superior position than I
am. What authority allows you to say that Christians are pagans?
Surely you should put that it is your opinion that Christians are
pagans?
No Christians worship any man no matter whether he is Jesus, Moses,
The Pope or The Archbishop of Canterbury. We worship only God.
>> Christians only
>> believe in one God, the God of the Jews and of the Muslims.
>
>
>So what was/is Jesus?
Christians believe that Jesus, born of Mary, was/is the son of God.
>> What is
>> the name of the other Gods we worship?
>
>
>You mean you do not call Jesus "the lord"?
We call Jesus "Lord" but we worship God alone.
>> What more evidence is needed
>> for a Christian to believe in the crucifixition than the New
>> Testament?
>
>
>Either one of the following:
>1. Acknowledgment of others (Jews) that they killed Jesus or
Most of the first Christians were Jews and they acknowledge the events
in the New Testament.
>2. Ann authentication of the New Testament.
This is almost impossible to do. How can we authenticate something
that was written 1900 years ago?
>> Part of the faith is that you accept your holy scriptures
>> and our scriptures stress the crucifiction.
>
>
>How many, who, when, where,... these scripts were written and in what
>language? How much do they differ and why? What about other scripts that
>were found (Barnabas) and contradicted the HUNDREDS of other scripts
>that were all destroyed?
This is the same for Judaism and Islam also. All 3 religions have
ignored other scripts or left out scripts from their Holy Tradition.
>>If you don't believe in
>> it then there is no compulsion to be Christian.
>
>
>That is not the history of the Catholics of Spain in the 15th century.
>It was either the sword or conversion for both Jews and Muslims.
That is true but I am talking about the present day not the past and
so if one doesn't believe in the role of Jesus then today you do not
need to be Christian.
>> As there are only 3
>> (or as you might say, 2) true monotheist religions and of those, 50%
>> ie Judaism predates Christianity then I am not too worried by other
>> religions lack of acknowledgement by other religions. Each religion
>> has its own unique aspects which the others have chosen to reject or
>> ignore and that is why they are different.
>>
>> All the Christians I know, including myself, only worship God.
>
>
>So do pray to God or "the lord Jesus" whenn you go to Church?
To God, just as Jews and Muslims do when they go to worship.
We only pray to God. The most commonly used Christian prayer, perhaps
the only one used in 99% of the churches in nearly every service and
the one which Christians recite when they pray in private at home is
"The Lords Prayer" and it usually goes something like this;
Our Father, who art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy name,
Thy Kingdom come on Earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily Bread,
And forgive us our trespasses,
As we forgive those who trespass against us.
For thys is the kingom,
The power and the glory.
Forever and ever, Amen.
You do not have to be Christian to realise that this prayer is to God
alone (trespass here means sin btw).
>> Likewise there are accusations that Muslims are polytheist due to the
>> attention paid to Muhammad,
>
I should have said that I don't believe this myself.
>Because we say (peace be on him)? We do that when we mention all the
>Jewish prophets and Jesus.
>Mohammad's name was mentioned only 4 (FOUR) times in the Quran as
>opposed to 29 times for Jesus and 165 times for Moses!!!
Not just because of the Quran but other things like the "Declaration
of Faith"
>>the Kaaba
>
>
>We are asked to visit it once in our life time if and only if
>financially and physically capable!
You are asked to visit it once if possible as part of your religion
just as we are asked to acknowledge Jesus as the Son of God in our
religion.
>
>> and even the Angels of Allah but
>
>
>This is a now saga for me. What do you mean by that. Up to my knowledge
>Christians believe in Angels too with some differences as to their
>nature.
Yes that was a mistake I mean't The Daughters of Allah and they are
not really relevant to modern Islam. Angels though are a good
example, both Christians and Muslims believe in Angels. Does that
mean that Hindus should call Muslims polytheists? No because Muslims
don't worship Angels just as Christians don't worship Jesus.
>
>> I think that too is only out of ignorance of the religion and Islam is
>> also a true monotheist religion.
>
>
>Islam is Islam. Period.
Christianity is Christianity. Period.
>> Perhaps you should read about
>> Christianity a bit more so that you can atleast criticise it
>> truthfully and for what Christians believe in
>
>
>I have a "Diploma" in "the holy bible" , New Testament. I obtained it in
>1976. Maybe I need to "refresh" my memories.
I was saying this to Roberta. I don't think you need to "refresh" your
memories but I do wonder how you can think us not to be monotheists
after you have studied our religion. I too have studied all three
monotheist religions at various levels.
>
>>and not for what we
>> don't.
>>
>> Also if I may comment about the Rabbi's message, I think to a large
>> extent he is correct about the Jews and Muslims. Certainly for around
>> 1,000 years Muslim lands were much better for Jews than Christian ones
>> but it is clear that in recent years the Christian lands have been
>> more than a little helpful in pushing the Zionist cause.
>
>
>Stalin (the Christian) Massacred over 20,000,000
>Hitler (the Christian) massacred over 12,000,000
>Spanish Inquisition - Christians massacred over 2,000,000
>Blacks en route to their Christian lords --- over 20,000,000 perished
>The White Christian European man massacred over 3,000,000 Indians
>I will complete the list once I get your response that Christians are
>the bloodiest of any other religion that people ever knew since Adam.
I wouldn't argue with you at all. As I said, Jews were treated much
better for around 1,000 years in Muslim lands than in Christian lands.
I would query though how Stalin could be a true Christian if he were
Communist? I would also say that Hitler was not acting on a
Christian doctrine, he just happened to come from a Christian
background.
>
>
>
>> As someone
>> else has already said, to many Christians, the establishment of Israel
>> is seen as a pre-cursor to the second coming. I don't mean to be
>> disrespectful but I would have hoped that a Rabbi would have a more
>> learned view of events.
>>
>> Having a founder of such an important religion as Islam portrayed as a
>> pig is obviously very offensive, even if it was done by a crazed old
>
>
>Did you conduct a "psychological assessment" on her to determine that
>she is "crazed"? If not what gives you the legitimacy to dub her crazed?
No I didn't "assess" her but I was continuing the useage of a word
that an earlier writer in this thread used to describe her. I would
say anyone who distributes leaflets depicting Moses, Jesus or Muhammad
as a pig is not totally well, especially when that person lives in an
area filled with religious and ethnic tensions as she is. If the word
crazed isn't correct then you could substitute the words " xenophic",
"racist" "bigot" "ignorant" or several others Anyway, I was defending
your religion, would you prefer me to say that she is correct???
If I can understand and respect your religion even if I don't follow
it, why cannot you see that Christians are monotheistic? If you can
find any prayer or biblical quotations where Christians admit that
they worship 2 or more Gods then please tell us. As I worship only
God but am Christian then according to you then either I am lying or I
am a pagan. Monotheists believe in just 1 God and Christians believe
in 1 God so why aren't Christians monothesists.
Stephen Liddell
Haim Guivon
> > >Rabbi Barry Albin <bar...@qni.com> wrote:
> > >>It is not helpful for the children of Abraham to fight.
The pagan Christians have shown us what the result of fighting
each other leads to. ***********
> > B'tsedek tishpot amitecho
> > Lev 19:15 via Mishna Avot
> > You shall judge your neighbor
> > favourably.
>
================================================================
I suppose that being a Rabbi, Mr. Barry Albin should know
better the history of our own nation: No need to vilify other
faiths, to find examples of the destructive effect of internal
fightings.
Remember the wars of the kings of Yehudah and Israel? Remember
the wars of the Hasmonean Dinasty? Remember the war that
followed "ma'asseh pilegesh ba'giv'ha" against Binyamin Tribe?
But, being a Rabbi, I suppose you know of a lot of more jewish
wars than I do.
So, why mix the christians? And why insult them? Do you feel
better by doing it? Does it make you feel superior? As the KU
KLUX KLAN, who need the "niggers", in order to have somebody to
look down on?
Didn't we have our own golden calf?
Haim
================================================================
=
Jack Garbuz
>>> >Rabbi Barry Albin wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> It is not helpful for the children of Abraham to fight. The pagan
>>> >> Christians have shown us what the result of fighting each other leads to.
>>> >> Muslims have never treated Jews as equals, but always better than the
>>> >> Christians treated us.
>>> >As far as pagan is concerned, I do not thin that you are wrong.
>>> >Believing in more than one God is not monotheism. Christians could not
>>> >provide any evidence that Jesus was crucified neither did any other
>>> >religion share them this belief. Worshiping a man (and his statue) is >nothing but paganism.
>>>
>Its nice to see that you are speaking from a superior position than I
>am. What authority allows you to say that Christians are pagans?
>Surely you should put that it is your opinion that Christians are
>pagans?
>No Christians worship any man no matter whether he is Jesus, Moses,
>The Pope or The Archbishop of Canterbury. We worship only God.>
>>> Christians only believe in one God, the God of the Jews and of the Muslims. <<
"Rabbi" ALbin apparently is ignorant of Maimonides, one of Judaism's most
profound philosophers, who distinguished Christians and Moslems from
heathens who worship idols, or no god at all. He ruled that Christians
and Moslems were neither to be considered pagans nor heathens. At any
rate, God gave his fundamental laws to all of humanity via Noah and all
mankind has an equal opportunity for salvation if they adhere to the
basic laws of Noah. The Mosaic laws were given to Israel for purposes
know only to God and do NOT give Jews any advantage over non-Jews in
access to salvation. Quite the contrary, the Jew must live up to a higher
standard in order to have the same right to "the world to come" as any
non-Jew who merely adheres fastiduously to the simple seven laws given to
Noah. Now if Christians believe that individuals gain their salvation
through the sacrifice of Jesus, the Son of God, that is their right to
believe that way. As far as Jewish doctrine is concerned, just living a
righteous life in accordance to the Noahide laws is sufficient "good
works." Jews also believe in the doctrine of Grace though most don't
realize it. The whole purpose of works (mitzvot) is to achieve a purity
of soul. JEws have annual days of atonement in which we confess to every
sin imaginable, but God decides our fate. Jews who mistakenly believe
that their Jewishness has somehow imparted them with some superior rights
are simply deluded regarding their own doctrine.
Joshua Moss
On 7 Jul 1997, Jack Garbuz wrote:
> God used the atheists the way the farmer uses manure.
What a lovely view of God.
> So the fact that Israel produces no spiritual fruit in this day
> and age is not surprising to a Christian fundamentalist scholar,
1. Says who
2. That is a contradiction in terms
Shabati Zvi Äbuishneineh
Stephen Liddell wrote:
>
> On Sun, 06 Jul 1997 21:46:48 -0500, Shabati Zvi Äbuishneineh
> >>
> >> pagan, personally I don't think this is the case.
> >
> >
> >You are correct when you said (personally). Christians are not but
> >pagans. Worshipers of a man.
>
> Its nice to see that you are speaking from a superior position than I
> am.
If you agree that you (were) speaking from a superior position, I do not
describe myself as such. I am simply stating my opinion.
> What authority allows you to say that Christians are pagans?
Your belief of the "trinity"
> Surely you should put that it is your opinion that Christians are
> pagans?
I did that.
> No Christians worship any man no matter whether he is Jesus, Moses,
> The Pope or The Archbishop of Canterbury. We worship only God.
I aksed you a question, who do you pray to when you go to church?
>
> >> Christians only
> >> believe in one God, the God of the Jews and of the Muslims.
> >
> >
> >So what was/is Jesus?
>
> Christians believe that Jesus, born of Mary, was/is the son of God.
We know this story. Is he "the lord" is simply the "son of god"?
>
> >> What is
> >> the name of the other Gods we worship?
> >
> >
> >You mean you do not call Jesus "the lord"?
>
> We call Jesus "Lord" but we worship God alone.
Give me a break. We did not come from Mars. What is the use of the
trinity if you worship only God?
>
> >> What more evidence is needed
> >> for a Christian to believe in the crucifixition than the New
> >> Testament?
> >
> >
> >Either one of the following:
> >1. Acknowledgment of others (Jews) that they killed Jesus or
>
> Most of the first Christians were Jews and they acknowledge the events
> in the New Testament.
You only can be a Christian or a Jew. You meant that they were
Israelites --- a race --- Judaism and Christianity are sets of beliefs.
You cannot be both at the same time.
>
> >2. Ann authentication of the New Testament.
>
> This is almost impossible to do. How can we authenticate something
> that was written 1900 years ago?
So, it is not my problem although I am concerned about why "hundreds" of
the "Gospels" were destroyed and only four left. Why not 5 or 3?
>
> >> Part of the faith is that you accept your holy scriptures
> >> and our scriptures stress the crucifiction.
> >
> >
> >How many, who, when, where,... these scripts were written and in what
> >language? How much do they differ and why? What about other scripts that
> >were found (Barnabas) and contradicted the HUNDREDS of other scripts
> >that were all destroyed?
>
> This is the same for Judaism and Islam also. All 3 religions have
> ignored other scripts or left out scripts from their Holy Tradition.
Not in Islam. The Quran was written a few years after the death of
Mohammad, in the very same language of Mohammad. The entire Quran could
be memorized with no mistake, not even a vowel, by teenagers of the 20th
century. It is impossible that these 20th century teenagers could ever
command Arabic like those companions of Mohammad. Further, if Christians
acknowledge that scripts were omitted, Muslims of all sects deny that.
>
> >>If you don't believe in
> >> it then there is no compulsion to be Christian.
> >
> >
> >That is not the history of the Catholics of Spain in the 15th century.
> >It was either the sword or conversion for both Jews and Muslims.
>
> That is true but I am talking about the present day not the past and
> so if one doesn't believe in the role of Jesus then today you do not
> need to be Christian.
Theoretically correct although evidence contradicts what you stated.
Iraq, the Muslim country was bombed with cruise missiles and since the
embargo started over 600,000 Iraqi children died as a result of shortage
of medicine and food. 750,000 are awaiting the same fate.... determined
by the Christian world under the pretext of applying the UN resolutions.
When it came to fighting the war-criminal Christian Serbs, the Christian
world did not give a damn as the victims were all Muslims.
>
> To God, just as Jews and Muslims do when they go to worship.
So Jesus has no place as a "worship to" subject when you pray?
> We only pray to God. The most commonly used Christian prayer, perhaps
> the only one used in 99% of the churches in nearly every service and
> the one which Christians recite when they pray in private at home is
>
> "The Lords Prayer" and it usually goes something like this;
> Our Father, who art in heaven,
> Hallowed be thy name,
> Thy Kingdom come on Earth as it is in heaven.
> Give us this day our daily Bread,
> And forgive us our trespasses,
> As we forgive those who trespass against us.
> For thys is the kingom,
> The power and the glory.
> Forever and ever, Amen.
>
> You do not have to be Christian to realise that this prayer is to God
> alone (trespass here means sin btw).
I will have to disagree with you.
> I should have said that I don't believe this myself.
>
> >Because we say (peace be on him)? We do that when we mention all the
> >Jewish prophets and Jesus.
> >Mohammad's name was mentioned only 4 (FOUR) times in the Quran as
> >opposed to 29 times for Jesus and 165 times for Moses!!!
>
> Not just because of the Quran but other things like the "Declaration
> of Faith"
They have nothing to do with Mohammad. They are called "Pillars of
Faith" and indeed were copied by the Jews from Muslims in the 12th
century by Maimonides after they added 2 "Articles) to compose 13
(Maimonides -- an apostate Muslim) Articles of Faith. The Pillars of
Faith -- all of them --- are in the Quran and Mohammad did not invent
them.
>
> >>the Kaaba
> >
> >
> >We are asked to visit it once in our life time if and only if
> >financially and physically capable!
>
> You are asked to visit it once if possible as part of your religion
> just as we are asked to acknowledge Jesus as the Son of God in our
> religion.
Again, we do not have 4 versions of Quran to cause a contradiction in
the trueness of our beliefs. Many Muslims do not even get a chance to
visit the Kabba. I have a hunch of what you want to say, I will leave
the answer till you ask.
> >
> >> and even the Angels of Allah but
> >
> >
> >This is a now saga for me. What do you mean by that. Up to my knowledge
> >Christians believe in Angels too with some differences as to their
> >nature.
>
> Yes that was a mistake I mean't The Daughters of Allah and they are
> not really relevant to modern Islam.
"Daughters...?" In Arabic we do not have a noun called "it." We use
either "he" or "she" for objects and people's names. Every name must be
either masculine or feminine. The Angels were always referred to in
masculine name. That on one hand means that your story is fake because
Muslims would have to refer to them in feminine language if they were
believed to be the "daughters" of Allah, and second the fact that we use
masculine name does not imply that they (the Angels) are sons of Allah.
We simply believe that the Lord is one, that is Allah, he was not born,
and did not give birth to anyone.
Stalin and Hitler were neither Muslims nor Jews. The entire people that
supported Hitler were not Jews or Muslim either. Look at the graffiti of
Hitler and tell me what it represents.
Your Christian media dub any act of violence in the Mideast as Islamic
Terrorism. If I say that people who commit these acts are not Muslims
will your media stop? Not indeed. The Western colonial power has an
intention to demean Islam regardless. How come we have "Islamic
fundamentalists" and "Islamic Terrorism" and we do not have the same
phrase for Christians, Jews, or Buddhists?
Shabati Zvi Äbuishneineh
Haim Guivon wrote:
> >
> ================================================================
> I suppose that being a Rabbi, Mr. Barry Albin should know
> better the history of our own nation: No need to vilify other
> faiths, to find examples of the destructive effect of internal
> fightings.
Except you of course when you referred to Islam a a sanguine. Oh. I
forgot that you do not believe that Islam is a religion to begin with.
A very hpocrite Zionist indeed.
>
> Remember the wars of the kings of Yehudah and Israel? Remember
> the wars of the Hasmonean Dinasty? Remember the war that
> followed "ma'asseh pilegesh ba'giv'ha" against Binyamin Tribe?
> But, being a Rabbi, I suppose you know of a lot of more jewish
> wars than I do.
He knows about wars to spread religions, not ones to destroy religions
like the ones that you know.
>
> So, why mix the christians? And why insult them? Do you feel
> better by doing it? Does it make you feel superior? As the KU
> KLUX KLAN, who need the "niggers",
He had a (religious) point when he said so. You had no point (bu a acist
one) when you described Muslim Arabs as sanguine.
in order to have somebody to
> look down on?
>
> Didn't we have our own golden calf?
I thought you are going to kill it.
>
> Haim
> ================================================================
> =
ro
At 09:22 07/07/97 -0500, Shabati Zvi /buishneineh wrote:
>How come we have "Islamic
>fundamentalists" and "Islamic Terrorism" and we do not have the same
>phrase for Christians, Jews, or Buddhists?
>
Ya alla. Maybe because no such thing exists?
(and by the way, I heard on this very NG,
one jew comment about another that he is
fundementalist jew).
ro
p.s.
You are so stupid. Try to think before you
post. And give us an address to reply to. And
stop using 8 different names. And stop replying
to yourself. And stop answering yourself.
ro
Shaul Rosenzweig
> Yes, the Romans prohibited Jews from living in Jerusalem and perhaps
> Saladin allowed them back. Nonetheless, you occupied our country.
>
I hope that you are not trying to emply that the Romans threw us out and
the Yishmaelim entered an empty country. This is a historical
fabrication. The Jews were the majority in Eretz Israel until Muslims
captured it. I don't want to quote the documents because I don't have
such memory and wouldn't like to misquote. But this is just a historical
fabrication used by the Christians as a proof that the galut was a
punishment for "killing yoshke". Horban haBayit would fit in perfectly
in their perception of the calendar as the date of punishment.
--
______________________________________________________
| Shaul Rosenzweig |
|E-mail: rose...@avoda.jct.ac.il.kill_the_spamers |
------------------------------------------------------
"I think there's a world market for about 5 computers."
- Thomas J. Watson, Chairman of the Board, IBM (around 1948)
Shaul Rosenzweig
Shabati Äbuishneineh wrote:
> You missed Washington DC.
I didn't, Washington DC is a Hebrew name. Actually the Mecca shrine is
an old Synagogue. You know, it's easy to use lies. So I'll continue in
Shabati's style: China si an Israeli province: the evidence can be found
in the great wall: If the great wall had been finished it would have
been an kosher eruv both by Shulhan Arukh and by Rambam (not really
true, but would Shabati really care) so we can derive a conclusion that
it is not only Jewish land, it is eather Sephardic, 'Edot haMizrah or
Yemenite. Let's go on, New York is a Jewish town not only because of the
number of Jews living there, but also we can find a proof in the statue
of liberty: it is obviously a jewish lady (kisui rosh, a bit strange one
but who cares) with a havdalah candle ready to put it out.
Is there need to go on? I really don't like replying the mujahedin
scum but this guy really got on my nerves. Poor Arabs, don't have
anything but lies to use, they had their weapons and werenm't really
good in using them (as we saw in past 50 years) so all they have are
lies. What really turns my stomack is self hating hellenists (as rabenu
used to say) trying to apollogize that somebody tryed to fight back.
> Yeah. Everything is because of the Arab violence. If an Israelite ass
> stumbles in Beersheva, it is because the Arab's violence in Azza. >Soon,
> the Israelis will claim that their HIV is due to the Arabic violence.
Actually the polution of large amount of Israeli water sources is due to
Arab's not caring for their sanitary conditions. This is not Shabati's
type of post, it's a fact.
> Abu
> HaChevroni
Hevroni? Cute. I am Yerushalmi. You would probably call it Al Qudsi? You
can call me and yourself any way you want.
Jack Garbuz
>> What authority allows you to say that Christians are pagans?
>
>Your belief of the "trinity">
The concept of God showing three "faces" or aspects does not
necessarily contravene the belief in the integrity of God's "oneness."
Even the Jewish mystical kabbalah attributes ten sephiroths or aspects
to God's divinity. The second word of the Bible, "creation," is BaRA
(Bet, Resh, Aleph) that Xtians interpret as as an acronym representing
Ben, Ruach, v' Abba (Son, Spirit, Father). Moses is claimed to have
seen "the backside" of God. So Christian doctrine can give a credible
explanation for their belief system.
>> >So what was/is Jesus?<<
Yeshua ("salvation") is one name of God according to Xtians, just like
Yahweh, El SHaddai, Elohim, etc.
>We know this story. Is he "the lord" is simply the "son of god"?>
According to Christians he is GOd who sacrificed Himself on our behalf
as a "kappara" or ultimate sacrifice to take our sins in the same
manner that the ritual sacrifices of bulls and lambs in the Temple were
meant to expiate for sin. According to Xtian doctrine, since it is
impossible to carry out all 613 commands of God's law, it means that
even disobeying God once requires the punishment of eternity in
Gehinnom (Hell). SInce there is no longer a Temple sacrifice of the
blood of the bulls and lambs, and since God requires our blood in
exchange for our sins, Xtian doctrine believes that God decided to take
on human form for a limited period, to die, spend the equivalent of
eternity in Gehinnom for the sins of those He would save by his Grace,
and to reserruct Himself as proof of who he was and why He came. This
is the essence of Xtian doctrine.
>Give me a break. We did not come from Mars. What is the use of the
>trinity if you worship only God?>
Why does GEnesis say "Ruach elohim m'rahefet"(the Spirit of God
hovered..)? We also call God our Father in heaven. Also God "walked" in
the Garden of Eden. THEre are many anthropomorphisms used in the Old
Testament.
Shabati Äbuishneineh
Jack Garbuz wrote:
>
> >I know, I know. In the Talmud, the Jews defeated God in a debate, the
> >Jews are Divines,.... You have been anything you wanted to be. You did
> >not leave nothing for others to imagine.<
>
> When one is immersed too long in any belief system from childhood one
> cannot but be rather blinkered in one's view of the world. We are all
> brainwashed to one degree or another. None of us need try to negate
> another's belief system in order to uphold belief in one's own. You have
> been quite guilty of doing that in this forum and some Jews here have
> done the same. I have not. What I have castigated is the disrespect that
> others have had for Jewish holy places for the last 2000 years. In the US
> we do not defile the holy mountains of American Indians. But in Israel
> there are Moslem holy sites that were placed directly on top of ancient
> Jewish ones. Those who do not want to be offended should not offend in
> the first place. If Jews have had some disparaged feelings towards the
> other faiths, they have historically kept their biases to themselves and
> certainly have not defaced or destroyed the holy sites of other
> monotheistic religions. Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw
> stones; get it?
Your Talmud states that there were 2 cities called Jerusalem. Over the
past 30 years, Israel and despite the intensive archeological works,
failed to bring a shred of evidence that our holy places were built on
yours. Before stating that we built our places on yours, you need an
evidence and you do not have one. Contrary to that, the Talmud indicates
2 cities by the name of Jerusalem and 2 others by the name of
Kadesh/ash. So prove it first, then come back and bluster.
turm0il
step...@ndirect.co.uk (Stephen Liddell) writes:
>On Sat, 05 Jul 1997 17:06:22 -0500, Roberta Schuller
><rsch...@No.Spam.Net> wrote:
>>Rabbi Barry Albin wrote:
>>>
>>> It is not helpful for the children of Abraham to fight. The pagan
>>> Christians have shown us what the result of fighting each other leads to.
>>> Muslims have never treated Jews as equals, but always better than the
>>> Christians treated us.
>>
>>As far as pagan is concerned, I do not thin that you are wrong.
>>Believing in more than one God is not monotheism. Christians could not
>>provide any evidence that Jesus was crucified neither did any other
>>religion share them this belief. Worshiping a man (and his statue) is
>>nothing but paganism.
>Though I can understand why others could label Christians as being
>pagan, personally I don't think this is the case. Christians only
>believe in one God, the God of the Jews and of the Muslims. What is
>the name of the other Gods we worship?
Jesus and the Holy Ghost. The other two entitys in your Trinity.
--
turmoil
turmoil's seattle music web
http://seattlemusicweb.com
tur...@blarg.net
Shabati .Äbuishneineh
Jack Garbuz wrote:
>
> Shabati Äbuishneineh <sne...@Reshet.Neged.Tsaion> wrote:
> >Jack Garbuz wrote:
> >>
> >> >I know, I know. In the Talmud, the Jews defeated God in a debate, the
> >> >Jews are Divines,.... You have been anything you wanted to be. You did
> >> >not leave nothing for others to imagine.<
> >>
> >> When one is immersed too long in any belief system from childhood one
> >> cannot but be rather blinkered in one's view of the world. We are all
> >> brainwashed to one degree or another. None of us need try to negate
> >> another's belief system in order to uphold belief in one's own. You have
> >> been quite guilty of doing that in this forum and some Jews here have
> >> the first place. If Jews have had some disparaged feelings towards the
> >> other faiths, they have historically kept their biases to themselves and
> >> certainly have not defaced or destroyed the holy sites of other
> >> monotheistic religions. Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw
> >> stones; get it?
> >
> >
> >Your Talmud states that there were 2 cities called Jerusalem. Over the
> >past 30 years, Israel and despite the intensive archeological works,
> >failed to bring a shred of evidence that our holy places were built on
> >yours. Before stating that we built our places on yours, you need an
> >evidence and you do not have one. Contrary to that, the Talmud indicates
> >2 cities by the name of Jerusalem and 2 others by the name of
> >Kadesh/ash. So prove it first, then come back and bluster.<
>
> Babylonians and by the Romans, completely looted and destroyed to the
> ground and plowed under. Now we are being told that not only that the
> holocaust never happened but that our Bible, and Josephus and all of our
> history as we have learned it is a total fabrication. I guess we Jews
> really are the greatest liars and con men on the planet. Maybe we came to
> earth in UFO's? Who knows? But the funniest part is that most of Europe
> and the ME bought into our myths and discarded their own. Okay, we had no
> Temple there. So why did Mohammed go there in his dream to ascend to
> heaven? Was that the closest mountain he could find north of Yathrib? Why
> would an Arab prophet from Arabia want to go to some hill in Jerusalem to
> ascend to heaven? Couldn't he ascend to heaven from the Kaaba in Mecca?
> I don't get it. I need a blooming genius with your kind of mind to sort
> it out for me.
Thank you Mr. Garbuz for the acknowledgment that your Torah and Talmud
are not authenticated.
As far as why God selected that spot, the ultimate wisdom is with Him.
But as far as I know, it is because Jerusalem area (Aqsa and
surrounding) was blessed by God-- (Quran, Al-Isra -001)
Shabati Äbuishneineh
Shaul Rosenzweig wrote:
>
> Shabati Äbuishneineh wrote:
> > You missed Washington DC.
>
> I didn't, Washington DC is a Hebrew name. Actually the Mecca shrine is
> an old Synagogue. You know, it's easy to use lies. So I'll continue in
> Shabati's style: China si an Israeli province: the evidence can be found
> in the great wall: If the great wall had been finished it would have
> been an kosher eruv both by Shulhan Arukh and by Rambam (not really
> true, but would Shabati really care) so we can derive a conclusion that
> it is not only Jewish land, it is eather Sephardic, 'Edot haMizrah or
> Yemenite. Let's go on, New York is a Jewish town not only because of the
> number of Jews living there, but also we can find a proof in the statue
> of liberty: it is obviously a jewish lady (kisui rosh, a bit strange one
> but who cares) with a havdalah candle ready to put it out.
> Is there need to go on? I really don't like replying the mujahedin
Jack Garbuz
Shaul Rosenzweig <rose...@beitza.jct.ac.il.kill_the_spams> wrote:
>> Yes, the Romans prohibited Jews from living in Jerusalem and perhaps
>> Saladin allowed them back. Nonetheless, you occupied our country.
>>
>I hope that you are not trying to emply that the Romans threw us out and
>the Yishmaelim entered an empty country. This is a historical
>fabrication. The Jews were the majority in Eretz Israel until Muslims
>captured it. <
I never implied that there were no Jews in Israel. There were always at
least a handful left in any year. I do not know who was the majority
before the Arabs invaded Eretz Yisrael. If you have specific knowledge or
sources please post it.
>I don't want to quote the documents because I don't have
>such memory and wouldn't like to misquote. But this is just a historical
>fabrication used by the Christians as a proof that the galut was a
>punishment for "killing yoshke". Horban haBayit would fit in perfectly
>in their perception of the calendar as the date of punishment. >
The concept by some Christians that the Temple was destroyed and all Jews
were banished as a collective punishment for the Crucifixion of Jesus is
not based on the New Testament. There is no hard basis for this
conclusion, though Xtians can make such an argument if they choose to.
Regardless, Jesus did say that before his return "the fig leaf would be
in bloom" indicating the rebirth of National Israel. However since
Christians believe that those who are saved in Christ are the "New
Israel" this rebirth of the State of Israel only indicates for them that
their Messiah is close at hand. Which is why so many Protestant
Christians support Israel in the US, Britain and elsewhere. It's
existence is tangible proof in their eyes of the truth of their doctrine.
We should respect and understand the belief system of our Christian
allies even if we do not necessarily share all of their views.
Jack Garbuz
Jack Garbuz
>I know, I know. In the Talmud, the Jews defeated God in a debate, the
>Jews are Divines,.... You have been anything you wanted to be. You did
>not leave nothing for others to imagine.<
When one is immersed too long in any belief system from childhood one
cannot but be rather blinkered in one's view of the world. We are all
brainwashed to one degree or another. None of us need try to negate
another's belief system in order to uphold belief in one's own. You have
been quite guilty of doing that in this forum and some Jews here have
done the same. I have not. What I have castigated is the disrespect that
others have had for Jewish holy places for the last 2000 years. In the US
we do not defile the holy mountains of American Indians. But in Israel
there are Moslem holy sites that were placed directly on top of ancient
Jewish ones. Those who do not want to be offended should not offend in
Jack Garbuz
>
>What a lovely view of God.>
What a lovely view of manure:)
>> So the fact that Israel produces no spiritual fruit in this day
>> and age is not surprising to a Christian fundamentalist scholar,
>
>1. Says who
>2. That is a contradiction in terms>
Why? How?
Joachim Carlo Santos Martillo Ajami
In a message dated 97-07-07 21:50:12 EDT, JGA...@WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Jack
Garbuz) writes:
> >I hope that you are not trying to emply that the Romans threw us out and
> >the Yishmaelim entered an empty country. This is a historical
> >fabrication. The Jews were the majority in Eretz Israel until Muslims
> >captured it. <
> I never implied that there were no Jews in Israel. There were always at
> least a handful left in any year. I do not know who was the majority
> before the Arabs invaded Eretz Yisrael. If you have specific knowledge or
> sources please post it.
The Jews were a majority in Palestine at the time of the Muslim conquest
only if Samaritans are considered part of the Jewish population. Moshe
Gil's recently published book on Jerusalem discusses the issue.
Joachim Carlo Santos Martillo Ajami
Jack Garbuz
Shabati Äbuishneineh <sne...@Reshet.Neged.Tsaion> wrote:
>Jack Garbuz wrote:
>>
>> >Jews are Divines,.... You have been anything you wanted to be. You did
>> >not leave nothing for others to imagine.<
>>
>> When one is immersed too long in any belief system from childhood one
>> cannot but be rather blinkered in one's view of the world. We are all
>> brainwashed to one degree or another. None of us need try to negate
>> another's belief system in order to uphold belief in one's own. You have
>> been quite guilty of doing that in this forum and some Jews here have
>> the first place. If Jews have had some disparaged feelings towards the
>> other faiths, they have historically kept their biases to themselves and
>> certainly have not defaced or destroyed the holy sites of other
>> monotheistic religions. Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw
>> stones; get it?
>
>
Jack Garbuz
>> Temple there. So why did Mohammed go there in his dream to ascend to
>> heaven? Was that the closest mountain he could find north of Yathrib? Why
>> would an Arab prophet from Arabia want to go to some hill in Jerusalem to
>> ascend to heaven? Couldn't he ascend to heaven from the Kaaba in Mecca?
>> I don't get it. I need a blooming genius with your kind of mind to sort
>> it out for me.
>
>
>are not authenticated.
>As far as why God selected that spot, the ultimate wisdom is with Him.
>But as far as I know, it is because Jerusalem area (Aqsa and
>surrounding) was blessed by God-- (Quran, Al-Isra -001)<
To know you is to understand why the Israeli guards cracked your jaw out
of joint, to stop the unending lies. So did God make the spot holy BEFORE
or after you guys built your El Aqsa mosque there? Was it holy before
Mohammed got there, and if so why? Oh, I know, because Abraham was to
sacrifice Isaac there, or does your book say it was Ishmael? I guess
Mohammed did a good job in rearranging our book so why not build mosques
on top of our holy mount and say the Jews had nothing to do with the
place. Sheesh.
bla...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Shabati Zvi Äbuishneineh (sne...@Reshet.Neged.Tsaion) wrote:
: Stephen Liddell wrote:
: Theoretically correct although evidence contradicts what you stated.
: Iraq, the Muslim country was bombed with cruise missiles and since the
: embargo started over 600,000 Iraqi children died as a result of shortage
: of medicine and food. 750,000 are awaiting the same fate.... determined
: by the Christian world under the pretext of applying the UN resolutions.
: When it came to fighting the war-criminal Christian Serbs, the Christian
: world did not give a damn as the victims were all Muslims.
The Gulf War had as its objective the liberation of Kuwait, a Muslim
and Arab country for which the "Christian world" gave a damn about.
: > I would query though how Stalin could be a true Christian if he were
: > Communist? I would also say that Hitler was not acting on a
: > Christian doctrine, he just happened to come from a Christian
: > background.
: Stalin and Hitler were neither Muslims nor Jews. The entire people that
: supported Hitler were not Jews or Muslim either. Look at the graffiti of
: Hitler and tell me what it represents.
Hindus are neither Muslims or Jews, but does that mean they are Christian?
I'm not about to get into a lengthy debate on whether or not Stalin and
Hitler were Christians or not, or how much so. But their philosophies
were inspired by certain Christian (and monotheistic) principles, such as
total certainty, exclusivity, and intolerance for other belief systems.
===================== ====================================
BLAINE GORDON MANYLUK email: bla...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
EDMONTON, AB
Haim Guivon
<sne...@Reshet.Neged.Tsaion> writes:
> Except you of course when you referred to Islam a a sanguine.
Oh. I forgot that you do not believe that Islam is a religion
to begin with.
> A very hpocrite Zionist indeed.
================================================================
As a rule, I don't answer to false and abusing postings.
But this poster seems to be mistaken, and not deliberately
lying. Therefore, I declare:
1) Sanguine means: "hopeful, optimistic".
2) I suppose that the poster wanted to write: "sanguinary"
3) I could never have written the things he attributes to me.
At most, it is possible that I wrote that the Islamic
fundamentalism, or the Islamic Brotherhood, or the Taliban, or
the Algerian Islam Terrorists are sanguinary. Never, never, the
Islam as a religion. About Algier: 60,000 people beheaded in 4
years, sometimes with electrical saws; isn't that sanguinary?
Then I don't know what is.
4) I do believe that Islam is a religion. A big one. I even
stressed more than once that Judaism (the Rambam, Rabbi Saadia
Gaon, Ibn Gvirol and many others) flourished under islamic
rule.
5) A proud Zionist, yes, I am. About his misspelled "hpocrite",
the poster is kindly asked to use this kind of language in his
household, as it seems to suit him better.
Haim
================================================================
msj...@link.com.eg
In article <5plrf5$vs$1...@scoop.suba.com>,
As a Palestinian, I have to salute your prudence and friendly
conciliatory spirit. Unfortunatley it is very hard to find a lot of Jews
whose approach to our problems match your friendly and civil
understanding. I honestly think that the solution to all the problems in
the arab-Israeli conflict could be easily solved if our adversaries are
like you. Violence have to stop and a solution have to be found or
created to accomodate the minimal needs of both people. But we do need
the voices of moderations to prevail over the relationship between the
two people. Keep up the good work Rabbi.
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Shaul Rosenzweig
Jack Garbuz wrote:
>
> >the Yishmaelim entered an empty country. This is a historical
> >fabrication. The Jews were the majority in Eretz Israel until Muslims
> >captured it. <
>
> I never implied that there were no Jews in Israel. There were always at
> least a handful left in any year. I do not know who was the majority
> before the Arabs invaded Eretz Yisrael. If you have specific knowledge or
> sources please post it.
I don't remember exactly, I lent the source for my statement to a
friend, but it is aproximately that sombebody managet to draft an army
of 10 000 or 20 000 jews in northern Israel in the year, about 500 or
600 by the gregorian calendar, I'll try to get the source for that to
post the exact data. As far as I can remember, it can also be found in
Netanyahu's book "The place among the nations", in the introduction I
think. It would be hard to draft 10 000 soldiers if there would be a
population smaller than 100 000 Jews (counting only that an average
person had a wife, several children, that people over 65 weren't
drafted...etc.). Don't base any conclusions on my statement until I find
the source. By that source, the Jews became minority only after the arab
conquest. Also it is noteworthy that even while the crusaders (y"s)
where in Israel, only non christians in Jerusalem were two or three
jewish families, and in Hebron an old jewish man. Also there is a
village in Galile where Jews have continousely lived since the
Hashmonean times (probably even befre). Now there are two old women
living there: a mother and a daughter.
> The concept by some Christians that the Temple was destroyed and all Jews
> were banished as a collective punishment for the Crucifixion of Jesus is
> not based on the New Testament. There is no hard basis for this
> conclusion, though Xtians can make such an argument if they choose to.
Yes, it is a sad fact that sometimes historians are also polititians.
> Regardless, Jesus did say that before his return "the fig leaf would be
> in bloom" indicating the rebirth of National Israel. However since
> Christians believe that those who are saved in Christ are the "New
> Israel" this rebirth of the State of Israel only indicates for them that
> their Messiah is close at hand. Which is why so many Protestant
> Christians support Israel in the US, Britain and elsewhere. It's
> existence is tangible proof in their eyes of the truth of their doctrine.
> We should respect and understand the belief system of our Christian
> allies even if we do not necessarily share all of their views.
>
Yes, but don't forget a big principle: Baruh H-shem, there are many
Goyim Tzadikim, but never put your trust in a Goyishe nation. Every time
we did that we got burned (Egypt, Babylonia, Greece, Rome, Spain,
Poland, Germany,...I hope that there will be no need to add anybody to
the list).
ro
At 23:03 07/07/97 GMT, Jack Garbuz wrote:
>Why? How?
Because! Miau! :)
ro
Haim Guivon
================================================================
================================================================
I would suggest that both of you employ your precious time
reading history books, in lieu of teaching us who insults the
better. Now, for your instruction:
-----
"Fundamentalism: A movement in American Protestantism that
arose in the early part of the 20th. century in reaction to
modernism and that stresses the inerrancy of the Bible not only
in matters of faith and morals but also as a literal historical
record, holding as essential to Christian faith belief in such
doctrines as the virgin birth, physical resurrection, atonement
by the sacrificial death of Christ, and the Second Coming."
----
Today, the concept has been extended to religious people, whose
aim is to replace civil law by old-time written religious law,
no matter what their faith.
The most active and ruthless nowadays are the Moslems, i.e.
Iran, Algier, Turkey, Afghanistan.
But note, please, that I write: "nowadays". Every religion has
its time of flourishing.
Haim
================================================================
Shabati .Äbuishneineh
So is this the way you answer the question of the present facts that
1)The Talmud says that there were two cities called Jerusalem and
2)Israel failed, despite the extensive archeological works to prove that
the temple is even close to Muslims' Holy places?
Muslims' Quiblah was Jerusalem before the "Journey". This is not the
point though. We believe in ALL of the Israelite prophets including
Jesus (peace be on him).
We realize that either of these 2 Jerusalem(s) that contains the Jewish
holy places; must remain holy to them. What we object is the Zionistic
blue-eyed, non-Semite occupation, who under the pretext of finding the
Jewish holy places want nothing but to ruin the Islamic nature of the
city. If the Indians had a temple under the Empire State Building; that
does not give them the prerogative to dig under the building. They have
their religion too.
But what is going on is not religion. It is the tongue of the nuclear
missiles that talks. Israel has the military supremacy ... nobody is
arguing with her. But sooner or later, things will eventually change.
Indeed, there is nothing constant in life except change. I may not
witness the change. But it is imperative that it happens, and, hence,
bring the demise for the fascist colonial Zionistic ideology.
Michael Shimshoni
In article <1997Jul...@mm.huji.ac.il>
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il writes:
>>
>> The pagan Christians have shown us what the result of fighting
>>
>> ================================================================
>> I suppose that being a Rabbi, Mr. Barry Albin should know
>> better the history of our own nation: No need to vilify other
>> faiths, to find examples of the destructive effect of internal
>> fightings.
>>
>> the wars of the Hasmonean Dinasty? Remember the war that
>> followed "ma'asseh pilegesh ba'giv'ha" against Binyamin Tribe?
>> But, being a Rabbi, I suppose you know of a lot of more jewish
>> wars than I do.
>
>Jewish law, _not_ Jewish history. Would you think a lawyer knew more
>about WWII than you?
How revealing! The Rabbis of Mr Schorr seem to be as ignorant as he is
(although I do not like to insult thus his Rabbis). After all two of
Haim's historical examples are from the Tanakh, but as Schorr is only
interested in much later books he does not expect his Rabbis to have
read the Tanakh. In Orwell's 1984 Schorr would have been a well liked
citizen. They liked there the ignorant ones.
>Moshe Schorr
Michael Shimshoni
Haim Guivon
<mos...@mm.huji.ac.il> writes:
> Haim Guivon <gui...@netvision.net.il> writes:
> > > > >Rabbi Barry Albin <bar...@qni.com> wrote:
> >> > >>It is not helpful for the children of Abraham to
fight.
> > The pagan Christians have shown us what the result of
fighting each other leads to. ***********
================================================================
> > I suppose that being a Rabbi, Mr. Barry Albin should know
> > better the history of our own nation: No need to vilify
other faiths, to find examples of the destructive effect of
internal fightings.
> > Remember the wars of the kings of Yehudah and Israel?
Remember the wars of the Hasmonean Dinasty? Remember the war
that followed "ma'asseh pilegesh ba'giv'ha" against Binyamin
Tribe?
> > But, being a Rabbi, I suppose you know of a lot of more
jewish wars than I do.
Haim, Why do you think that? A Rabbi is someone who has
studied Jewish law, _not_ Jewish history. Would you think a
lawyer knew more about WWII than you?
> Moshe Schorr
>
> It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman
of Breslov
> (mailed & posted)
================================================================
================================================================
Well, Yes, of course. Law students study a lot of history. A
lawyer must know where the law stems from. You cannot say: it
is so because it is so. You must fundament your sentences.
Of course a lawyer MUST know history more than I. (And I MUST
know more metallurgy than a lawyer :-)
And, as far as I know, true jewish scholars, master the history
of our nation, much better than I do.
We may differ in our interpretation; but knowledge? REALLY!!!!
Bye,
Haim
===============================================================
================================================================
================================================================
Shabati. .Äbuishneineh
bla...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca wrote:
>
> Shabati Zvi Äbuishneineh (sne...@Reshet.Neged.Tsaion) wrote:
> : Stephen Liddell wrote:
>
> : Theoretically correct although evidence contradicts what you stated.
> : Iraq, the Muslim country was bombed with cruise missiles and since the
> : embargo started over 600,000 Iraqi children died as a result of shortage
> : of medicine and food. 750,000 are awaiting the same fate.... determined
> : by the Christian world under the pretext of applying the UN resolutions.
> : When it came to fighting the war-criminal Christian Serbs, the Christian
> : world did not give a damn as the victims were all Muslims.
>
> The Gulf War had as its objective the liberation of Kuwait, a Muslim
> and Arab country for which the "Christian world" gave a damn about.
Why does not the "Christian world" give a damn about the occupation of
Lebanon, Palestine, Kurdistan, ...etc. How come only Kuwait? Their is no
Mecca or Aqsa or any holy places in Kuwait except a bunch of barrels of
petrodollars.
Jack Garbuz
>> To know you is to understand why the Israeli guards cracked your jaw out
>> of joint, to stop the unending lies. So did God make the spot holy BEFORE
>> or after you guys built your El Aqsa mosque there? Was it holy before
>> Mohammed got there, and if so why? Oh, I know, because Abraham was to
>> sacrifice Isaac there, or does your book say it was Ishmael? I guess
>> Mohammed did a good job in rearranging our book so why not build mosques
>> on top of our holy mount and say the Jews had nothing to do with the
>> place. Sheesh.
>
>
>So is this the way you answer the question of the present facts that
>1)The Talmud says that there were two cities called Jerusalem and<
I go by the Bible and take the Talmud with a grain of salt.
>2)Israel failed, despite the extensive archeological works to prove that
>the temple is even close to Muslims' Holy places?<
Well, I heard today that archaeologists claimed to have uncovered King
Herod's swimming pool. You know that the ROmans plowed the Temple under,
renamed Jerusalem Aeola Capitolina and placed Jupiter where the Temple
stood, and forever barred Jews from returning. So it would be kind of
hard to find anything there these days. The Romans were quite good
engineers as you know.
>Muslims' Quiblah was Jerusalem before the "Journey". This is not the
>point though. We believe in ALL of the Israelite prophets including
>Jesus (peace be on him).
>We realize that either of these 2 Jerusalem(s) that contains the Jewish
>holy places; must remain holy to them. What we object is the Zionistic
>blue-eyed, non-Semite occupation, <
What, are you racist? Did the bible tell us what the racial composition
of Jews were? Many today believe that only the Yemenite Jews today
resemble the archetypal Hebrew physiognomy and physique and while many of
them resemble Arabs in appearance, having lived in Israel for ten years I
can generally tell the difference between a Yemenite and and Arab. They
have curly hair, but not kinky hair as typical of Hamites, and there are
subtle differences in the facial appearance. Just as I can usually
distinguish the difference between Mexicans, Hondurans, Guatemalans,
Dominicans, etc. ( I had a business in a mixed hispanic neighborhood in
NYC), and in most cases I can similarly distinguish between Arabs and
Yemenites, or Moroccan Jews, or Iraqi Jews, etc.
>who under the pretext of finding the
>Jewish holy places want nothing but to ruin the Islamic nature of the
>city.<
Sorry if Jews messed up your neighborhood. When I was kid we moved into
an Italian-AMerican neighborhood and messed it up for them too, and we
sometimes faced some unpleasantless there as well. And I can say that
"my" Brooklyn has been totally changed in the last 25 years by the influx
of Palestinians, CHinese, Pakistanis, you name it, and what was once a
predominantly Jewish borough is no more. So?? Thass life Pal :)
> If the Indians had a temple under the Empire State Building; that
>does not give them the prerogative to dig under the building.<
They sold Manhattan to the DUtch. We didn't sell Jerusalem to the Arabs.
> They have
>their religion too.
>But what is going on is not religion. It is the tongue of the nuclear
>missiles that talks. Israel has the military supremacy ... <
Thank God for that, huh? But Israel took its independence in 1948 greatly
outnumbered and outgunned. So this "technological superiority" is not the
whole answer. Jews fight hard for THEIR land precisely because it is
THEIR land.
>nobody is arguing with her.<
No? Could have fooled me. What's an arguement with the Arabs like if you
aren't arguing now?
> But sooner or later, things will eventually change.<
So? So you'll also get nuclear weapons eventually; then what? The US and
Russians had thousands of them pointed at each other for 40 years. If
your Arab brothers in Syria, Egypt, Iraq, the Gulf are all willing to die
for "Palestine" then MAD it is. We all go sooner or later:)
>Indeed, there is nothing constant in life except change. I may not
>witness the change. But it is imperative that it happens, and, hence,
>bring the demise for the fascist colonial Zionistic ideology.<
Again, zionism in its purest sense is simply the assertion of the right
of the JEwish people to regain sovereignty over their homeland. It is not
intended to push anyone out except those who violenty resist that simple,
just aim.
Jack Garbuz
>>. Which is why so many Protestant
>> Christians support Israel in the US, Britain and elsewhere. It's
>> existence is tangible proof in their eyes of the truth of their doctrine.
>> We should respect and understand the belief system of our Christian
>> allies even if we do not necessarily share all of their views.
>>
>
>Yes, but don't forget a big principle: Baruh H-shem, there are many
>Goyim Tzadikim, but never put your trust in a Goyishe nation. Every time
>we did that we got burned (Egypt, Babylonia, Greece, Rome, Spain,
>Poland, Germany,...I hope that there will be no need to add anybody to
>the list).>
Israel in the past was restored by the ancient Persians and in this
century the British CHristians and AMerican Protestants have been very
supportive of Israel - especially the 40 million SOuthern Baptists who
have many more zionists amongst them than Jews do, for sure. It's not a
question of ever putting one's trust in any other people; it's a question
of working with allies for mutual interests, underlying differences
notwithstanding. It doesn't mean that Jews might not face persecution or
discrimination again in the US or anywhere else in time. But Jews
sometimes got burned when they switched loyalties in midstream too.
Shabati. .Äbuishneineh
Jack Garbuz wrote:
> >1)The Talmud says that there were two cities called Jerusalem and<
>
> I go by the Bible and take the Talmud with a grain of salt.
But the Talmud gives a precedence to it self over the Torah. Besides,
most of the Jewish laws are coming from the "Oral Law", the Talmud.
What grain of salt are you talking about? Why do not the Zionist let the
Falasha live their lives with the Torah and some grain of salt?
>
> >2)Israel failed, despite the extensive archeological works to prove that
> >the temple is even close to Muslims' Holy places?<
>
> Well, I heard today that archaeologists claimed to have uncovered King
We have been "hearing" your "hearings" for the past 30 years. You do not
have a shred of evidence, else you will turn the world up side
down.
> What, are you racist? Did the bible tell us what the racial composition
> of Jews were?
I though that God promised the "Israelites". Did not he? Will you accept
what the Talmud states about the laws pertaining "converts"?
So how are you related to Abraham? Why do you force the Jewish (Black)
Falasha to "convert" to Judaism (again)?
> Many today believe that only the Yemenite Jews today
> resemble the archetypal Hebrew physiognomy and physique and while many of
> them resemble Arabs in appearance, having lived in Israel for ten
So what do you say if I tell you that I have a friend who have a son
from a Jewish partner. How do you racially classify this child?
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
Haim Guivon <gui...@netvision.net.il> writes:
> <mos...@mm.huji.ac.il> writes:
>> Haim Guivon <gui...@netvision.net.il> writes:
>> > > > >Rabbi Barry Albin <bar...@qni.com> wrote:
>
>> >> > >>It is not helpful for the children of Abraham to
> fight.
>> > The pagan Christians have shown us what the result of
> fighting each other leads to. ***********
>
> ================================================================
>
>> > I suppose that being a Rabbi, Mr. Barry Albin should know
>> > better the history of our own nation: No need to vilify
> other faiths, to find examples of the destructive effect of
> internal fightings.
> > > Remember the wars of the kings of Yehudah and Israel?
> Remember the wars of the Hasmonean Dinasty? Remember the war
> that followed "ma'asseh pilegesh ba'giv'ha" against Binyamin
> Tribe?
>> > But, being a Rabbi, I suppose you know of a lot of more
> jewish wars than I do.
> Haim, Why do you think that? A Rabbi is someone who has
> studied Jewish law, _not_ Jewish history. Would you think a
> lawyer knew more about WWII than you?
> ================================================================
> Well, Yes, of course. Law students study a lot of history. A
> lawyer must know where the law stems from. You cannot say: it
> is so because it is so. You must fundament your sentences.
Haim, you didn't read my post to the end apparently. I wasn't talking
about the history of _law_. I asked about history in general. The
example I gave was WWII. I repeat, do you think a lawyer would know
more about WWII than you, just because he's a lawyer?
> Of course a lawyer MUST know history more than I. (And I MUST
> know more metallurgy than a lawyer :-)
Not at all. I'm sure there are many quite successful lawyers who
wouldn't "waste" their time on studying fields outside their purview,
be it history, geography, or metallurgy.
> And, as far as I know, true jewish scholars, master the history
> of our nation, much better than I do.
The breadth and scope of the "history of our nation" is vast. Rabbis
specialize more in Halacha and derivation of same. Other "true jewish
scholars" might indeed specialize in history. Would you call every
specialist in history, an expert in Halacha as well?
> We may differ in our interpretation; but knowledge? REALLY!!!!
And truly!!!!
Michael Shimshoni
In article <1997Jul...@mm.huji.ac.il>
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il writes:
>Haim Guivon <gui...@netvision.net.il> writes:
>> <mos...@mm.huji.ac.il> writes:
>>> Haim Guivon <gui...@netvision.net.il> writes:
>>> > > > >Rabbi Barry Albin <bar...@qni.com> wrote:
>>
>>> >> > >>It is not helpful for the children of Abraham to
>> fight.
>>> > The pagan Christians have shown us what the result of
>> fighting each other leads to. ***********
>>
>> ================================================================
>>
>>> > I suppose that being a Rabbi, Mr. Barry Albin should know
>>> > better the history of our own nation: No need to vilify
>> other faiths, to find examples of the destructive effect of
>> internal fightings.
>> > > Remember the wars of the kings of Yehudah and Israel?
>> Remember the wars of the Hasmonean Dinasty? Remember the war
>> that followed "ma'asseh pilegesh ba'giv'ha" against Binyamin
>> Tribe?
>>> > But, being a Rabbi, I suppose you know of a lot of more
>> jewish wars than I do.
>
>> Haim, Why do you think that? A Rabbi is someone who has
>> studied Jewish law, _not_ Jewish history. Would you think a
>> lawyer knew more about WWII than you?
Rabbis to lawyers (true, of the "Jewish law"). I shall come back to
that definition of Schorr later.
>> ================================================================
>> Well, Yes, of course. Law students study a lot of history. A
>> lawyer must know where the law stems from. You cannot say: it
>> is so because it is so. You must fundament your sentences.
>
>Haim, you didn't read my post to the end apparently. I wasn't talking
>about the history of _law_. I asked about history in general. The
>example I gave was WWII. I repeat, do you think a lawyer would know
>more about WWII than you, just because he's a lawyer?
>
>> Of course a lawyer MUST know history more than I. (And I MUST
>> know more metallurgy than a lawyer :-)
>
>Not at all. I'm sure there are many quite successful lawyers who
>wouldn't "waste" their time on studying fields outside their purview,
>be it history, geography, or metallurgy.
>
>> And, as far as I know, true jewish scholars, master the history
>> of our nation, much better than I do.
>
>The breadth and scope of the "history of our nation" is vast. Rabbis
>specialize more in Halacha and derivation of same. Other "true jewish
>scholars" might indeed specialize in history. Would you call every
>specialist in history, an expert in Halacha as well?
history. That is well known to every impartial observer of them.
They accept such obviously historically wrong assumptions about the
history of *their* version of the Jewish religion. "Halakha lemoshe
misinai", and all kind of claims about late additions are Mosaic etc.
prove it so well.
Now a small comment about Schorr comparing his Rabbis to lawyers. One
of the functions of lawyers is to find those loopholes which will
satisfy their customers. As I have claimed before, and Schorr had *of
course* denied, one of the functions of Schorr's Rabbis is to find
loopholes, or let us call it drehs, to make it more comfortable for
Schorr and his ilk to claim that they live according to the original
Mosaic Torah. Oy!
>Moshe Schorr
Michael Shimshoni
Stephen Liddell
On Sat, 05 Jul 1997 18:04:57 -0500, George <Ab...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Roberta Schuller wrote:
>
>
>> Roberta Schuller
>
>I still don't believe that you are another person than Abubu, you know
>why. Because you made a mistake in one of your posts where you replied
>to on of my posts, and you spoke as if you were him, and you did the
>terrible mistake of signing as Roberta Schuller, so I believe that you
>are one person.
>
>George
I too think that Roberta and Abu may be one and the same. When I
suggested that Roberta should perhaps study Christianity before she
criticises it, Abu retorted that he had studied it in 1976. He must
be getting his pseudonymns mixed up.
Stephen Liddell
George
Happened with me too. Roberta answered me as if she was Abu. I think it
was long since he had his last sanity test.
George
--
May the peace of God be with you;
Mt 10:13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if
it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.
HildaR1
You guys are only proving my theory that they are not one person at all
but a sort of boilerroom set up a network and different employees yes, I
said employees sit down and use which ever personal server is not used at
the moment and we have seen the vaious names they use whether it is
Golani Jafar Salah Abu etc etc. etc. We don't know any of their real names
because they cange from time to time. This is why they forget themselves
and sign the wrong name or forget that the thread was.
Jonathan Kent
Äbuishneineh (sne...@Reshet.Neged.Tsaion) wrote:
: Jordi Sod wrote:
: >
: > (I trimmed the subject line a bit.)
: >
: > In article <5plrf5$vs$1...@scoop.suba.com>, Rabbi Barry Albin says...
: > >
: > >It is not helpful for the children of Abraham to fight. The pagan
: > >Christians have shown us what the result of fighting each other leads to.
: > >Christians treated us.
: > >
: > >If it were not for the Muslims saving us from the Spanish Inquisition,
: > >the Sephardi learning along with the Zohar would have been lost.
: >
: > Agreed up to now.
: >
: > >
: > >What happened with portraying the great Gentile Prophet, Mohammed as a
: > >swine is so reprehensible that it defies expression. However, to then
: > >respond by portraying Netanyahu as a pig is worse. The one was done by a
: > >crazy woman. The other was done on the command of Yassir Arafat.
: >
: > Pretty much agree. I wouldn't refer to Mohammed as a great Gentile
: > Prophet, but then again I don't believe in prophets. Therefore,
: > believers of both sides, please don't be offended.
: >
: > >
: > >The Palestinians are our cousins. Closer than the Arabs, they have hated
: > >us since the beginning. It is time for them to return to Idumea from which
: > >they came with there goy king, Herod.
: >
: > The Palestinians ARE Arabs. They cannot be simply identified as Edomites.
: > I don't think it's time for them to return anywhere in particular. They
: > have a right to live where they are currently living. Under what regime...
: > that's a different story.
: >
: > >
: > >Rabbi Barry Albin
: > >
: >
: > Jordi Sod
: Palestinians have been Arabized by the Muslim culture like Egyptians,
: Syrians, Algerians,... etc. Further, a man with 1.3 billion follower
: should be great regardless of what you believe of his prophecy>
Who had 1.3 billion followers? You DO realize that this figure is greater
than the entire population of China....
I sort of doubt that the entire population of the earth was that heavy
during the Prophit's life.
Jonathan
Shabati...Äbuishneineh
Are you ignorant or ignorant? Islam started with one believer and now is
around 1.3 billion +-. Go to your neighbor and check her almanac.
Yehuda Igor Yeroslavski
Distribution:
Shabati Äbuishneineh (sne...@Reshet.Neged.Tsaion) wrote:
Now you is "Dbuisheineh" - maybe better for you try this name -
"Debilshaize" - that is contented Russian-German roots.
I=P
Jonathan Kent
on>
Shabati...Äbuishneineh (sne...@idReshet.Neged.Tzaion) wrote:
Were talking about history here, dolt. This alleged prophit never held 1.3
billion followers while he was alive.... If I got that almanac, I
would be forced to throw it at you.
Jonathan
Shaul Rosenzweig
I never said that we sholdn't have allies when we have common interests,
just not to put our trust in them and risk our lives depending on them.
It allways blows up in our faces. Now we depend on americans, what if
they decide that they should support the arabs? The French did the same
several decades ago...
Jean-Francois Beaulieu
Jack Garbuz wrote:
>
> Shabati Äbuishneineh <sne...@Reshet.Neged.Tsaion> wrote:
> >I assume that every one is familiar with the case of the Zionist settler
> >in Hebron who was distributing some literature printed in the Zionist
> >prints in Kiryat Arba describing Mohammad as a pig.
> >
> >I am personally no astonished from this no incident. Rabbi Meir Kahana
> >used to describe the Moslem Arabs as "dogs" and in his "CBS 60-Minuites"
> >interview before they assassinated him, he declared that it is his God
> >that instructed him to do and say thus.>
>
> And I was very much against him at the time, having known him since 1968.
> But now I'm not so sure. I booed him at a rally in Rehovot back in 1988
> or so. Today, I would applaud him. He saw it as it is, unfortunately.
>
Fuck you pig.
Matt Giwer
> Fuck you pig.
Please. Is there truly a reason to sink to the level of a jew in
your posts?
=====
Dedicated to the six reporters shot in three days by the IDF
in Hebron the week of 7 July 1997. Some prefer to say, the
five in one day by the IDF marksmen.
irgun1943
Monsieur Beaulieu,
Rather, fuck your mother as your grandmother fucked the Germans.
Avec mille regardes,
irgun43
Jean-Francois Beaulieu <jf...@vir.com> wrote in article
<33CA47...@vir.com>...
D.Berger
Matt Giwer wrote:
>
> On Mon, 14 Jul 1997 11:37:39 -0400, Jean-Francois Beaulieu
> <jf...@vir.com> wrote:
>
>
> >> Shabati Äbuishneineh <sne...@Reshet.Neged.Tsaion> wrote:
> >> >I assume that every one is familiar with the case of the Zionist settler
> >> >in Hebron who was distributing some literature printed in the Zionist
> >> >prints in Kiryat Arba describing Mohammad as a pig.
>
> >> >I am personally no astonished from this no incident. Rabbi Meir Kahana
> >> >used to describe the Moslem Arabs as "dogs" and in his "CBS 60-Minuites"
> >> >interview before they assassinated him, he declared that it is his God
> >> >that instructed him to do and say thus.>
>
> >> And I was very much against him at the time, having known him since 1968.
> >> But now I'm not so sure. I booed him at a rally in Rehovot back in 1988
> >> or so. Today, I would applaud him. He saw it as it is, unfortunately.
>
> > Fuck you pig.
>
> your posts?
>
> =====
> Dedicated to the six reporters shot in three days by the IDF
> in Hebron the week of 7 July 1997. Some prefer to say, the
> five in one day by the IDF marksmen.
Please. Wouldn't you be so kind not to sink to the level of jews
and not to write your pleasant posts here?
Jean-Francois Beaulieu
Irgun1943 wrote:
>Monsieur Beaulieu,
> Rather, fuck your mother as your grandmother fucked the Germans.
> Avec mille regardes,
> irgun43
Neither my grandmother neither my great grandmother nor any other
one, illeterate asshole. They all crossed the Atlantic 350 years
ago.
irgun1943
Yes, they crossed the Atlantic one step ahead of the vice squad.
irgun43
Jean-Francois Beaulieu <jf...@vir.com> wrote in article
<33CBAA...@vir.com>...
Matt Giwer
On Tue, 15 Jul 1997 09:06:47 GMT, "D.Berger" <dmi...@chk.elex.co.il>
wrote:
Gotta write them some place. Delete your newsgroup from your
response and you will see it less frequently.
Shabati..Äbuishneineh
Daniel Keren wrote:
>
> Jean-Francois Beaulieu <jf...@vir.com> writes:
>
> # Neither my grandmother neither my great grandmother nor any other
> # one, illeterate asshole.
> ^^^^^^^^^^
>
> :-) :-)
>
> -Danny Keren.
Danny;
Many, if not all, people on the Middle Easterner BBs speak English as a
second, third, or even forth language.
You should judge the post based on its merits. Remember that the vice
president of the US made a simple spelling mistake too.
HIPRS
Shabati..Äbuishneineh
Roberta Hatch wrote:
>
> sne...@ixReshet.Neged.Tsaion writes:
> >Daniel Keren wrote:
>
> >> Jean-Francois Beaulieu <jf...@vir.com> writes:
> >>
> >> # Neither my grandmother neither my great grandmother nor any other
> >> # one, illeterate asshole.
> >> ^^^^^^^^^^
>
> >> :-) :-)
>
> >Many, if not all, people on the Middle Easterner BBs speak English as a
>
> 1) Beaulieu wasn't speaking.
>
> 2) Spelling "illiterate" incorrectly in that sentence was
> humorous.
>
> 3) Is English your "forth language"?
Ms. Hutch
As long as you understood me, that will be good enough. If you have no
answer; simply ignore the post.
These BBs can not be classified as "alt.politics.humor".
As far as if English is my 4th language or not; this is not your
business, I believe. I cannot understand your insult one day and a
neutral answer the second day.
Regards.
Shabati Zvi
Roberta Hatch
sne...@ixReshet.Neged.Tsaion writes:
>Daniel Keren wrote:
>> Jean-Francois Beaulieu <jf...@vir.com> writes:
>>
>> # Neither my grandmother neither my great grandmother nor any other
>> # one, illeterate asshole.
>> ^^^^^^^^^^
>> :-) :-)
>Danny;
>Many, if not all, people on the Middle Easterner BBs speak English as a
>second, third, or even forth language. ...
1) Beaulieu wasn't speaking.
2) Spelling "illiterate" incorrectly in that sentence was
humorous.
3) Is English your "forth language"?
Bobbi
---
Roberta Hatch '65 Panhead
Dykes on Bikes, San Francisco, CA (This space for rent)
Ali
George wrote:
> Roberta Schuller wrote:
>
> So, the Roberta Schuller is here :), good for you Abubu.
>
> > As far as pagan is concerned, I do not thin that you are wrong.
>
> thin = Think, right ?
>
> > Believing in more than one God is not monotheism. Christians could
> not
> > provide any evidence that Jesus was crucified neither did any other
> > religion share them this belief. Worshiping a man (and his statue)
> is
> > nothing but paganism.
>
> Speake about stupid ideas. You say that we could not provide any
> evidence that Jesus was crucified. Thats the dummiest thing I have
> ever
> heard in my life, Mrs Roberta, its YOU who can't provide any, and I do
>
> mean any proof that Jesus was not crucified. I would suggest that you
> go
> to sri and see what they are saying about the issue, some of them say
> that Jesus might have been crucified but not dead, some of them say
> that
> Jesus was not crucified at all (all of these people ARE muslims). But
> we
> have the historical support and the Gospel to tell everyone that Jesus
>
> WAS crucified. It is you who should supply us with the proof, because
> you are the only who is saying that history and the Gospels are wrong,
>
> so you must provide your evidence. And the only thing you can provide
> is
> the Koran, and nothing else.
>
Look, that's just your god damn opinion. I as a Muslim, DO NOT BELIEVE
HE WAS CRUCIFIED. It's just their opinion. LIVE WITH IT!!!!!!!!
>
>
> > Roberta Schuller
>
> I still don't believe that you are another person than Abubu, you know
>
> why. Because you made a mistake in one of your posts where you replied
>
> to on of my posts, and you spoke as if you were him, and you did the
> terrible mistake of signing as Roberta Schuller, so I believe that you
>
> are one person.
>
> George
Roberta Hatch
sne...@ixReshet.Neged.Tsaion writes:
>Roberta Hatch wrote:
>> sne...@ixReshet.Neged.Tsaion writes:
>>>Daniel Keren wrote:
>>>> Jean-Francois Beaulieu <jf...@vir.com> writes:
>>>> # Neither my grandmother neither my great grandmother nor any other
>>>> # one, illeterate asshole.
>>>> ^^^^^^^^^^
>>>> :-) :-)
>>>Danny;
>> >Many, if not all, people on the Middle Easterner BBs speak English as a
>> >second, third, or even forth language. ...
>> 1) Beaulieu wasn't speaking.
>> 2) Spelling "illiterate" incorrectly in that sentence was
>> humorous.
>> 3) Is English your "forth language"?
>Ms. Hutch
Yes?!
>As long as you understood me, that will be good enough. If you have no
>answer; simply ignore the post.
Why? Every now and again I like to play your game with you.
>These BBs can not be classified as "alt.politics.humor".
Hee. Hee-hee. Hahahahahaha! Good one.
>I cannot understand your insult one day and a
>neutral answer the second day.
Well, you'll just have to start reading a bit closer in
the future. Maybe you should consider moving English up to being
your third language, instead of your "forth."
George
Please, read carefully what I wrote in this thread and in the past
discussions. I don't care what you believe in, with all due respect, but
I don't care. The issue is that we cannot provide any evidence that
Jesus was crucified, thats just dumb. One thing that in history (even as
the Koran said) Jesus *was* crucified, the Koran provided a new
alternative point of view about the incident that it wasn't Jesus who
was crucified but someone else who was made in his image, which means
that Jesus was crucified in the eyes of historians and all people who
saw it, it was just kep secret until Muhammad came and introduced this
one (from the Koranic point of view). So the fact remains that Jesus (or
if we will take the Koran's word about it, someone who was made like
him) was crucified. Shabati (who is the same as Roberta) intorduced some
dumb ideas that even contradicts the Koran itself, and he says he is a
Muslim. He said that even the Jews don't confess or even mention that
they killed/crucified Jesus, of course if you know your Koran you will
know that this is completely wrong, because the Koran clearly says:
[4.157] And their saying: Surely we have killed
***************************************
the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle
*******************************************
of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did
********
they crucify him, but it appeared to them so
(like Isa) and most surely those who differ
therein are only in a doubt about it; they
have no knowledge respecting it, but only
follow a conjecture, and they killed him
not for sure.
So, I was not questioning your beliefs, I was just stating that he was
wrong, and apparently you didn't realise the difference between what we
are talking about and what you thought I was saying.
Haim Guivon
> >>>> Jean-Francois Beaulieu <jf...@vir.com> writes:
>
> >>>> # Neither my grandmother neither my great grandmother
nor any other
> >>>> # one, illeterate asshole.
-----
> >> 2) Spelling "illiterate" incorrectly in that
sentence was humorous.
>
> >> 3) Is English your "forth language"?
>
> >Ms. Hutch
> Well, you'll just have to start reading a bit closer in
> the future. Maybe you should consider moving English up to
being your third language, instead of your "forth."
> Bobbi
>
> ---
> Roberta Hatch '65
Panhead
> Dykes on Bikes, San Francisco, CA (This
space for rent)
===============================================================
Come on, Ms. Roberta!
I is not speaking English very well, too. But dat is not a
reeson to make luf of us.
Not everybody holds a Ph.D. in English, but everybody has the
right to express his/her opinion as well as he/she is able to.
The fact is that English is the lingua franca of the Internet.
So we, poor ignorant mortals, must write in our flawed English.
And you, superior creatures, must do an effort to understand.
That is, if you want to behave civilizedly (oof! what a word!)
Bee wel, and forguv mee, pleese.
Haim
================================================================
sol10
Has any one read Ahmed Deedat's Book called "Crucifixion or
Cruci-fiction"? It is an excellant interpretation of the Bible's
accounts of what happened. As Muslims we only need the Quran as proof.
This is aimed only at our Christian and Jewish brethren ...