check this intersting video
sam aziz
him, like 200 million more.
http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ai=214&ar=1363wmv&ak=null
khalid jarrar
Khalid Jarrar
secretsinbaghdad.blogspot.com
13
however, i generally have a built-in mistrust towards TV-Persona religious ppl until they prove me wrong, still, i'll go watch.
sam aziz
Doesn't look like Islam? What looks like Islam to you my friend?
Suicide bombers? Women covered from head to toe? Killing people just
because they listen to music or watch a western movie? Calling people
pigs and monkeys? Is that Islam? No, at least not the Islam I know.
The point is, and what he basically was saying, is we need change, we
need to accept the others, we need to understand the others, not
condemn them. We need to change the way we think. The world has moved
forward, but we are standing still. God saves me; we still fight over
something that happened 1400 years ago. Believe you me; I have no
misconceptions at all. We need to confess our mistakes and face them
before we throw the guilt over to someone else and blame them for all
what happened to us. we should stop living is a state of denial and
face our mistakes.
13
true, all what you say is true, we need to break away from the rotten old heads who 7aram'ed everything and made everyone a Kafir.
however, Khalid did have a point there which i am seeing a bit often nowadays.
in a nutshell:
Beware the Gilded Cacky.
i believe what he meant is: this guy sounds like he had an ulterior motive, something hidden behind his actions.
does anyone know the political/public history of this guy?
or did he appear out of "thin air"?
is he speaking honestly and from his own thoughts, or he's just pushing somebody else's agenda?
this is what he meant.
am i right?
now, easy everyone, whether you are for or against Dhia'a al-Musawi (was his name i believe?)
you both present good valid points.
remember, today's hero can be tomorrow's menace-to-society.
remember when Muqtada alSadr first showed up on the political scene? he was "the 7awza Man of Arab Lineage" and "will defend Shi'a and Sunni alike" and more along these lines.
today, the same people call him a "dangerous element" a "radical firebrand cleric" and a "fugitive".
CBSnews just annouced that Coalition forces say he left to Iran a couple of weeks ago.
so everyone, take it easy, and please make yourself as clear as possible!
(last month it was AK who lost his way with words on Miraj's housebreaking thread, now its Khalid's turn!)
13
sorry. sleepy here.
AK
these inane jokes....
here goes:
Khalid...I don't really understand what has this man say to incur all
this hatred from you, maybe he put up a picture of Jesus and Gandhi
and King in his house but that doesn't mean he is slandering Islam in
any way, this man calls for universal tolerance and acknowledgment of
everyone living together in peace - why is that quite so bad? We are
all proud of our Islam culture and tradition but I must say with quite
some anger that today the Muslims have completely misinterpreted
everything about this to produce this arrogant, stubborn mentality of
takfirism and violence for which seeds lie in everything that man has
said! Why is it impossible that we examine the good things in Western
culture in order to use them to reform ourselves! It is mentalities
like yourself - the stubbornness by which you name Americans and Jews
pigs and monkeys and think that we come from a higher level simply
because we are Muslims (similar mistake made by the Jews) which hurdle
progress, we greatly need people like this man who in many ways
represent a version of Islam I would like to spread, kudos to you Sam
Aziz and Khalid I have nothing personal with you, I still would like
to meet you and laugh with you and and all I am saying here is to have
a productive dialogue.
AK
deserves a lot of participation from other bloggers,
On Feb 14, 5:11 am, 13 <anark...@gmail.com> wrote:
khalid jarrar
Suicide bombers? Women covered from head to toe? Killing people just
because they listen to music or watch a western movie? Calling people
pigs and monkeys? Is that Islam? No, at least not the Islam I know.
"
Khalid Jarrar
secretsinbaghdad.blogspot.com
irakerin rana
khalid jarrar
like yourself - the stubbornness by which you name Americans......"
this hatred from you"
khalid jarrar
Khalid Jarrar
secretsinbaghdad.blogspot.com
AK
off.
All right, maybe you didn't say literally Jews are pigs, but that's
the sort of ideology you and my friendly Friday mosque preacher in Umm
Udhayna have :)
We are talking about a little bit of tolerance and this is exactly
what this man (Mosawi) is talking about, even the agenda he is pushing
have Western connotations, it's a good agenda. The things he said does
not promote total destruction of Islam, he did not say Islam is evil,
he said that current Islamist propaganda is evil.
On Feb 14, 11:37 am, "khalid jarrar" <khalidjar...@gmail.com> wrote:
> لان هي الاديان كلها اديان خير وسلام وعمر الاسلام مكان دين قتل
> you are right dear,
> but this isnt the way, believe me.
> alright.
> are you all willing to take this further and look at evidence of qur2an and
> sonna in this regard?
>
> On 2/14/07, irakerin rana <irakerin.r...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > اني اعتقد انه هو رجل دين حقيقي وهذا هو الاسلام الحقيقي لان هي الاديان كلها
> > اديان خير وسلام وعمر الاسلام مكان دين قتل
> > هذا مجرد رايي الخاص
> > وفعلا اتمنى انه العقول تنور باللي قاله ضياء الموسوي
>
> > 2007/2/13, sam aziz <lordalo...@gmail.com>:
>
> > > Doesn't look like Islam? What looks like Islam to you my friend?
> > > Suicide bombers? Women covered from head to toe? Killing people just
> > > because they listen to music or watch a western movie? Calling people
> > > pigs and monkeys? Is that Islam? No, at least not the Islam I know.
> > > The point is, and what he basically was saying, is we need change, we
> > > need to accept the others, we need to understand the others, not
> > > condemn them. We need to change the way we think. The world has moved
> > > forward, but we are standing still. God saves me; we still fight over
> > > something that happened 1400 years ago. Believe you me; I have no
> > > misconceptions at all. We need to confess our mistakes and face them
> > > before we throw the guilt over to someone else and blame them for all
> > > what happened to us. we should stop living is a state of denial and
> > > face our mistakes.
>
> --
> Khalid Jarrar
> secretsinbaghdad.blogspot.com- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Nadia
man. Some parts are taken off and I need them. So if some one knows
where the whole part is please give me/us a link.
Now:
What this man needs to point out more is that the "arab world" that he
refers to have dictators, have undemocratic regimes, have regimes who
oppresses its people, using torture, threats, taking away all their
human rights and rights to development.
These regimes have been here for over 20 years. Yet with all these
regimes clear lack of democratic rulings democratic countries in the
west has been supporting them all along. Just look at Saudi Arabia.
Over 50 years this dictatorship has been supported by the democratic
countries. Freedom the democratic countries would never allow their
people to be without is what they take way from the people in Saudi
Arabia and other countries when constant support is given that regime.
Why? Why does the west support taking away their freedoms and then
play the stupid game of "I have not done anything".
What does a dictatorship do? What does a dictatorship mean? What is
the difference between living in a dictatorship and a democracy? Here
is the answer why people in the arab world are not as free as they
would be had they been given the opportunity to develop a better
society in their country.
An undemocratic regime takes away freedoms from the people, it takes
away their right to critical thinking, it takes away their right to
develop and change. It uses torture, threats and military attacks to
stay in power.
And all this have been supported by the west. So to come and do as
this man does here, and not putting the focus on the corrupted regimes
who have forbidden the development he puts the focus on the oppressed
people. Is he afraid of the regimes as the rest of the people? Or is
it because it's easier to blame the oppressed then the regime that is
doing the oppression?
I wish I could meet him and have a live interview because I am very
curios about this man's views here.
What is his view about youth who strap themselves into a military
airplane and attack innocent nomads in Somalia? Is that acceptable?
What is his view about people who join the army and go and kill other
people? What is his view about people who support the dictators and
give all the support possible for them to stay in power even longer?
What is his view about all the weapon factories that people in
democratic countries work in and then these weapons are used to kill
people. Is that good, would it be better if the Arab world had these
weapon factories? I really just want to know if he took that up.
In Africa and in Asia we can see undemocratic regimes who do all they
can to forbid their people to develop. Because people's development
and free parties and respecting human rights means their death. Its
very clear these regimes are the different from what regimes are in
the democratic world.. One is for human rights of its people the other
is not. One is for people's right to join different parties and work
for change in society the other is not. So why do these democratic
regimes still support the other side? Its clear that this support is
not for the benefit and development of the society. So why does it
continue. They know their own countries develop with the help of
freedom so why support the people who take away freedoms in other
countries for decades.
The west is acting as if it is afraid of having the sort of freedoms
its people have to be given to other nations in Africa and Asia.
Is it the threat that these millions of people would start having the
chance to improve their countries meaning west will most likely loose
a lot in both business and control? Colonialism comes in many ways.
The most modern is economic colonialism and colonialism by supporting
people in power who looks after west interests not the people of the
country is not something the masses in these counties would like to
see continued.
As I said I wish I could have seen the whole interview, I want to know
how much did he go into "how an undemocratic regime affect the society
they rule".
As for the music part I am really a bit surprised. Hasn't this man
seen Arabic TV, series and movies? It's filled with music. Have he
missed the "habibti" "habibi" songs hysteria in the Arab World. Have
he missed all the poets, painters and sculptures. They are all there,
where is he?
On 13 Feb, 15:17, "sam aziz" <lordalo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I dont know who this guy is, but i think he is great. we need more of
> him, like 200 million more.
>
> http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360...
khalid jarrar
AK
Sunna and Hadeeth, please do provide us with
examples?
2. Nadia, for the 2nd time today I am in awe - yes it is incredibly
true that the repression of people, coupled with the people's own
disappointment in nationalistic movements have forced people to return
to religion, and to take to a violent interpretation because of
dictatorships which were supported by the West, and now has come to
bite the West back in its ass. This point is valid in my opinion, the
West only looks after its own interests, but that is to say that the
Arabs themselves are not innocent of the blame? we are backward, we
only accept our own ideological superiority and we tend to solve
matters with fists and blood (especially Iraqis, go read Dr. Ali al-
Wardi's books). Today we are faced with two evils, the old traditional
adversary of the West, and the more immediate Islamic fundies (Shia
and Sunni) who I think are more formidable and dangerous to Islam from
the West.
sam aziz
اول شي اريد اكول احنا كلنا اخوة مهما اختلفنا بالراي, و ثاني شي هم اريد
اكول انو اني ما عندي اي اجندة و لا اريد انف
sam aziz
sorry i pressed inter by mistake....
anyhow... as i was saying, i dont an agenda, and i dont was to serve
anyones agenda for that matter, i only need change. you say we should
go back to our roots, thats just greate, thats what we need. we need
to go back to the point of realzing that we are a nation of wealth and
greatness, we once were and we now can be.
nadia made a good point, our oppresive regimes are part of the
problem. let me make an example. you all remember that cartoon fuss,
people all pver the islamic world were angry, there were
demonstartions, boycotts, and all sort of things. we even demanded
that the prime minister of denamrk apolopy for somethign he didnt do
or even resposible for, anyway ... states allowed all this becasue all
these feeling of anger was directed at denmark. but look now, israel
is digging beside al-aqsa mosque which threatens to collapse it, and
what do we do? we do nothing. the states dont allow that kind of
emotions or actions towards israel, and what we do after that? nothing
too.
the problem is not just the oppresor nadia, that opressed is part of
the problem too, we have become tames and domesticated. look at the
ukrain for example, the werent satisfied, the kept demostarting untill
the kicked put the president and his government. my point is simple,
if you want something reall bad, you should fight for it. we sit and
let other people fight our battles for us. we are passive, negative,
mediocore people. that is why we need to change.
يعني احنا سلبيين و صارلنا 1000 سنة باقين بنفس المكان. ليش منجرب شي
جديد؟ كلشي سوينا و كلشي جربنا و بعدنا باقيين بنفس المكان , ليش ما نجرب
شي جديد؟
anarki made a good point too, that does matter if the west wanted to
change? if somebody is giving you good advice, why not take it? even
if he has an agenda of some sort, do what is best for you. we should
deem anything that comes from the west as "bad". thats just
redicouls.
يعني احنا ميصير نبقى منغلقين على انفسنا و نكول كلشي يجينا من الغرب
حرام و غلط. ثم شبي بيتهوفن الله يخليك؟ و عيب اذا اعلك صورة المسيح او
مارتن لوثر كنغ لو غاندي ؟ اني معلك صورة غاندي و كنغ و جيفارا. يعني هذا
عيب؟ لو حرام؟
لازم نتخلى عن عقلية الحرام و الحلال هذي. المبدا يا اعزائي كلش بسيط,
كلشي وين الك حلال و كلشي مضر بيك حرام. كلشي تسوي لفائدتك حلال و كلشي
تسوي لمضرتك حرام.
we should forsake this halal and haram mentality. god gave a brain to
use it, not to put your hat on it. it is so simple that it hurts.
whats good for you is good, and whats bad for you is bad. this is how
i understand it.
13
now:
i have many things to say about the posts here: i agree with all points of view -yes, this is possible- so,
let me start from bottom to top here:
Sam, yes, we need change more than anything else, and as you said, change must be done on OUR terms. thing is, such things must be pondered carefully and thoroughly.
i don't want to follow ANYONE without being 100% sure about him.
i never voted in our "elections" because for me, the lesser of two evils is still evil.
same applies here.
don't seek blind change just because you have been opressed, because that is what EXACTLY led to the rise of the "islamist" movements of today.
"Good" should be good for everyone, not just me.
and if it was Bad for ME but Good for everyone else, that is what should be done.
i believe the concept should be Right and Wrong, not Good and Bad:
for example: if someone steals money for himself: Money is Good for him, but he is clearly doing something Wrong.
i understand what you meant though, and believe me what you mentioned is part of THE definition for Islam and the Muslim:
"المسلم من سلم الناس من لسانه ويده"
and please, put up ALL the pictures you want!
as long as you don't worship them, and think of them as just reminders of great people, more power to you!
Hell, at least you dont have Christina Aguilera pictures up like me ;P
-----------
AK:
you gave the same opinion as Sam, and i agree with you on what you said, but two things i will repeat:
1. before you apply any change, think it over, a million times.
after all, the mess we're in right now in Iraq came because it was time for change, and no one thought it over carefully.
2. you can avoid the mosque preacher, change your mosque. i did so since Ramadhan. during tarawe7 the preacher started on (very cleverly masked) about Mu3awiyah and the "Sa7aba-Haters".
i changed mosques the next day.
don't tell me there is no other mosque near you, because if you accept that fact, then you must accept the preacher craziness as well.
one more thing: i dont believe the current islamist tide has turned around and bit their helpers on the ass.
you are the conspiracy theory buff, look closer.
;) like i told Semiramis yesterday, if you think this group is too trivial, please start a serious discussion of your own, give us something to talk about ;)
-----------
Khalid:
Tolerance is good, very good, but should be studied carefully.
the "western movies thing" and such Sam mentioned, they did happen, in Iran and Afghanistan, along with many other horrible things done in the name of Islam.
and indeed ولا تزر وازرة وزر اخرى
-----------
Nadia:
i agree with you completely, well said.
-----------
Rana:
yes, islam, as its name spells out, IS a religion of peace.
don't let any bomb-strapped brain-washed animal convince you otherwise.
-----------
sam aziz
Thank you 13. I am not religious, but I have nothing against religious
people or religion in general. In my opinion, every body is free to
believe in whatever he wants, just as long as it doesn't hurt other
people or society in general. The point of this discussion, or at
least my point, was not religion. My point was change. Not just for
the hell of it, but because we desperately in need of change.
This man in the video said something very thoughtful, we don't read,
and we did we don't understand. Moshe diain (is that how it's written)
the Israeli minister of defense said the same thing before the 1967
war, sadly he was right.
We don't read about our history, and if we did, we don't understand
it. The point of reading about other peoples lives is to learn from
it. When we read about napoleon for example, we should learn what he
did wrong in waterloo in order not to repeat it in any future battle.
When we read about the Abbasids, we should learn from their mistakes.
For example Al-Mu'tasim hired mercenaries to fight against his
brother, the later on he made them the backbone of his army, forsaking
the thought of holy jihad, and preventing the citizens from defending
their country against its enemies, thus making it of second or third
interest to them. The point of going back to our roots is not actually
doing what they used to do, in my view at least. I think going back is
all about learning from the past and not repeating its mistakes.
I see Khalid's point; we should read between the lines. We should be
smart and thorough, that's a good thing. But we should not refuse
everything just because its doesn't meet our standard. If you bought a
suit and it didn't fit you, would you throw it away? You shouldn't.
You should at least give it to the tailor to try and make it fit you.
Acceptance my friend is not just a word you say. Acceptance means not
judging people. We have a lot of Arab and Muslim immigrants in the
west, right? And for a long time westerners have accepted these people
as part of their society. But some of these people, Arabs and Muslims
I mean, still refuse to accept the society they live in, thus making a
gap between them and the other. Let's take this hijab fuss that
happened a few months back in England. This guy said, and I agree with
him, that he can't communicate with a woman who covers her entire
body, including her face. I understand that, you know why? Because I
now live in Yemen, and they all cover their faces, which makes it
imposable to communicate. When I first got here, a girl came to me and
said hey Sam, remember me? I was in dentistry school with you. I said
hi and chatted for a while. The next day, I wanted to go to her and
say good morning, but I couldn't figure which one of the black masses
is she, so I gave up. This is not about hijab; I respect the choice of
every humane being on earth, this is about how we responded to that
man, who only wanted to make a point. Acceptance means that we should
also accept criticism form others. If they are misinformed, we should
correct them. But if they made a valid point, we should listen and
ponder their words.
Nobody in his right mind can say anything bad about Islam, or any
other religion for that matter, because if you respect a humane being,
you should respect him or her for what all he is. Regardless of his
faith, color, ethnicity, background, or gender. It's not right to
disrespect a Jew just because he is a Jew, or a Muslim just because he
is a Muslim, or Shiite Muslim just because he is Shiite Muslim, or a
Buddhist just because he is Buddhist, or a black man just because he
is a black man, it is just not humanly right. I am thinking here as a
humane being, I am thinking about my relation to other humane beings,
aside from religion. But don't every religion commands that you treat
others as you want to be treated? I can't call somebody a pig and
expect him not to say anything, right?
My father taught me something i want to share with you. He said when
you read a book about something; you should read another book that
says the opposite. Like if you were reading a book about capitalism
for example, you should read another book about communism. That way
you would have both sides and you can decide for yourself.
And yes yes yes, some serious discussions would great every once in a
while.
I talked too much my friends. This is even more than what I write in
my blog most of the time. I hope I didn't bore you. And sorry if
offended anyone, especially you Khalid.