SJ Flames White Wolf For Bad-Faith Behavior
Steve Jackson
game business, mutual contempt between hobby personalities, and so on,
this posting will not interest you.
I'm posting this only to rec.games.frp, and to the Illuminati Online
conference io.games.sjg.gurps. I have no objection to its being reposted
elsewhere, if this is being discussed elsewhere.)
Where's GURPS MAGE? What's going on between SJ Games and White Wolf? There
have been a lot of questions. There have been denials from a WW employee and a
non-employee "friend," who couldn't give any details but assured everyone that
nothing was wrong. I've held off commenting on the net. But Steve Wieck, the
president of White Wolf, has deliberately ignored every fax and message I've
sent him, now, for more than a month. I caught him on the phone today -- he
called someone else at my office, and I just picked it up and said "Hi, Steve
. . . " After talking to him, I don't think the relationship between the
companies can GET any worse, so there's no reason not to tell my customers
what's happening.
Steve says that he "didn't think it was worth his while" to return any of my
faxes or calls. This, despite the fact that the reason he called my office
today was to personally demand a $15 late fee on the $1,000 check we just sent
them for VAMPIRE COMPANION. Fifteen dollars. Important use of his time. Right.
When I asked him, specifically, why it wasn't worth his while to return any of
my messages, he told me that he had spent enough hours talking with me
already, and that he was satisfied with that, and with a fax they sent me on
June 3. I replied (not exact quote) "Steve, my fax asks a couple of specific
questions, and asks you to confirm in writing some things you told me over the
phone. Since you have told me so many times that we have "misunderstood" your
verbal approvals, it's not very cooperative of you to refuse a written
confirmation when we ask for one." His reply (exact quote, I stopped to write
it down) was that he was "content to sit back" without replying to any of my
questions, and that we had "lost it" when I called him a liar . . .
"Lost it," eh? Verrrrrry professional, Mr. Wieck. This is the way a REAL
company president acts, don't you think?
Flashback; let's fill in some background.
Apparently SJ Games won the "I Slept With WHO??" award, at this year's Silver
Hatchet Ceremony at Origins, for making a deal with White Wolf in the first
place. I can't argue . . .
There have been many, many problems with White Wolf since we started doing
GURPS versions of their books, and one of the worst boils down to: White Wolf
changes the ground rules on us, over and over, and always in ways that
hamstring our adaptations.
Some examples: When we first signed the deal, they told us that we could do
"place" sourcebooks - Chris McCubbin did some good preliminary work on "Texas
By Night." Then they changed their minds.
When we turned in the VAMPIRE COMPANION text, they refused to approve the
adventure. The reason they gave was that it was set in a city and "they might
want to use that city someday." So we published the book without the
adventure.
When we first signed the deal, we agreed, verbally, that -- since we could
only do one follow-on sourcebook for each of the five main World of Darkness
titles -- we would do "sampler" sourcebooks that took interesting sections
from different White Wolf releases. This would give us a good book that didn't
duplicate any of theirs, and would whet the appetites of the GURPS fans,
increasing White Wolf sales. But later, Steve Wieck said "You can't do that.
We want you to pick just one of our supplements for each title, and adapt it."
From these and other problems, we saw that it would be prudent of us to get
White Wolf's approval on each books' OUTLINE, so no time or work was wasted.
They approved the outlines for both MAGE and WEREWOLF COMPANION.
We had a problem with the MAGE cover. Initially we wanted to use the same
cover design they did: big gold letters, and a tarot card on a dark cloth
background. It's a great design. We contracted John Zeleznik to paint a new
card, so it wouldn't look too much like theirs. But WW said they would not
approve any card John painted. They insisted that we use their card artist, or
not do a card at all. The reason? "To keep consistency within the line." We
pointed out that GURPS MAGE was not part of their line, and some distinction
was a good idea. But no, Steve Wieck said that we had to use their artist or
not do a card.
Then, researching Tarot design, we came to THE ENCYCLOPEDIA OF TAROT, by
Stuart R. Kaplan (Volume I, 6th printing, 1988). After examining its dramatic
and original cover design, we decided that perhaps gold letters and tarot
cards on a rich cloth background were not what we wanted for our book, after
all. We did an entirely different cover. (We did not discuss the reason for
our change with White Wolf - we thought it would only lead to further upset.
But it sheds an interesting light on their attitude about the "originality" of
our MAGE manuscript.)
So we thought we had all the MAGE problems ironed out. But when the final,
laid-out MAGE pages went in, WW rejected it. Initially, the line editor, Phil
Brucato, complimented the book. But then he sent us a letter, saying the book
was rejected because - and I quote from Phil's 6-3-94 letter - "I cannot
approve a book that reprints so much of our own copyrighted material."
This led to some long, stressed phone conversations. We pointed out that at
the beginning of the very first project, GURPS VAMPIRE, they had surprised us
by requiring that we write new chapter-intro vignettes. "Mark Rein-Hagen
doesn't want his stories re-used." So Jeff Koke wrote all new vignettes, and
they're very good. But Jeff and Mark had gone over the whole VAMPIRE book to
decide which non-rules sections could be copied, and which would have to be
rewritten from scratch. Wasn't it unfair, we asked, to change the rules after
MAGE was finished, when we'd done just what Mark Rein-Hagen had personally
supervised on VAMPIRE?
Well, no. They didn't think it was relevant. Steve Wieck didn't want to admit
that any instructions we had had from Mark Rein-Hagen affected the current
question at all.
Jeff Koke and I pointed out that ALL our previous books had made extensive use
of material from their White Wolf originals . . . that was the point of the
license. "Not this much," was the reply. True. They'd been vetoing originality
right and left, and approving duplicated material. MAGE contained more
duplication than the earlier books, and with less internal editing by our
writer; the MAGE disks they sent us were much more cleanly written than the
sources they supplied for earlier books.
We pointed out that the contract REQUIRES White Wolf to supply us with the
complete text of their books on computer disk, and they had done this for
every book, including MAGE. "That's just for your reference," we were told.
(And sure enough, the contract doesn't actually say we can USE any part of
that computer text as it is, does it? It just says they have to supply it.)
We reminded them of incidents in which they had demanded that we follow their
wording exactly. Apparently that was then, though, and this was now.
We pointed out that Bob Schroeck had discussed with Phil Brucato, the line
editor, EXACTLY which parts of his outline would be rewritten and which parts
would use the MAGE text. "Oh, that was a misunderstanding."
We pointed out that Steve Brown was hard at work compiling WEREWOLF COMPANION,
and that he was following the exact same procedure. In fact, we'd chosen him,
with White Wolf's approval, BECAUSE he had written so much of the original
WEREWOLF material. "Oh. Well, that's under a different editor. And that's a
misunderstanding, too. He'll have to rewrite it all, too."
We asked if, since they wanted our book to be different from their MAGE, we
could develop some minor new material . . . some new Rotes, some new Paradox
Spirits. Phil Brucato liked that idea at first, when he and I were talking.
But later, with Steve Wieck on the line, Phil "explained" that it would "not
be in the best interest of Steve Jackson Games" to include any new creations
at all. "Not in the best interests of Steve Jackson Games?" There's a triumph
of doublespeak.
I confess that I used the word "weasel" a number of times during that very
last conversation, but at least it was always as a verb, and not as a noun.
We even offered, since they were so concerned about "their words," to change
the cover credits of GURPS MAGE to mirror those of the original MAGE. I had
Bob Schroeck's permission to make this offer. In fact, he welcomed it; he
didn't think he should be credited as "author," but just as "GURPS adaptation
by." But Steve Wieck rejected this compromise too.
And in the end, we had no good choices. We could violate the license and
publish without approval, or we could take them to court and ask a judge to
provide adult supervision. Or we could drop the whole project. Or we could
rewrite the manuscripts.
So we started rewriting. GURPS MAGE didn't make Origins. We didn't have an
Origins release at all. I asked Steve Wieck if he cared about this. "No," he
said. "We don't have an Origins release, either," he said.
No, I really don't know what is happening here. But since that last MAGE call,
more than a month ago, in which Steve Wieck also said that all further
discussion had to go directly through him, I've faxed him three times asking
for clarification IN WRITING of some of the things he required, and WRITTEN
confirmation of some things that he said -- on the phone -- would and would
not be acceptable. (No, I wasn't recording that call, either.)
The fax went out first on June 30. Then on July 6. I got sick and missed a lot
of work -- so the next one didn't go out until July 21. No answer. Since then,
I've been phoning . . . over and over. But I didn't get an answer until I
surprised him by picking up the phone when he called someone else . . . and
then the answer I got was that he wouldn't answer.
The next time a GURPS MAGE manuscript goes to White Wolf, it will be even
better than the last one . . . the one that Phil Brucato said, on first
reading, was "better than their version." There will be no quality issue.
There will also be no issue of "using their words." If Steve Wieck never
answers my questions, I'll just go by what he told me on the phone, on that
call I wasn't recording, and we'll see if he's set me up for yet another
"misunderstanding" and another delay of the book.
Current employees of White Wolf toe the party line without explaining, or keep
silent. The calls and mail that I get from WW refugees, concerned about this
issue, indicate that they think White Wolf will approve another manuscript for
us when hell freezes over. Steve Wieck, a month ago, angrily denied that he'd
ever given orders to reject any manuscript before it came in, and told me that
OF COURSE I couldn't believe anything I was told by anyone White Wolf had
fired. "I don't lie!" he said loudly. "I don't tell lies!" He also asked,
repeatedly, if I was recording the call...
It would be nice to believe that White Wolf wants these books to come out, and
wants them to be good. But Steve Wieck told me, months ago, that he wished
this license had never been granted. (No, I wasn't recording him, but I
believe him.) There sure weren't any congratulations from Atlanta when GURPS
VAMPIRE won the Origins Award this year.
The instructions that we now have from WHITE WOLF **seem** to boil down to:
Base each of your books exactly on one of ours. Don't put in anything new.
Except for the vignettes, which have to be new. But make all the descriptive
sections the same. But don't use any of "their words." In other words, make
everything completely the same, but make it all different.
But it's hard to know what the instructions really are, since the president of
the company insists we talk only to him, then won't answer our questions or
put his own statements in writing, and justifies it by saying he's offended
that I "called him a liar."
(Now you're asking: Did I really call Steve Wieck a liar? Well, I sure put his
nose out of joint. We were on the phone. He made a couple of very self-serving
remarks, with the stilted, repeated phrasing and the tone of voice that I last
heard from the Secret Service guys as they lied about raiding us. I pointed
out that what he said didn't mesh with facts I possessed. He stormed "I don't
like being called a liar." I was amazed. All I could say was "Don't lie,
then." In my experience, the louder someone tells you they're honest, the more
you have to watch them. Honest people just don't lie, and everyone notices.
Their reputations take care of themselves. On the other hand, sometimes a cool
black shirt covers a really thin skin.)
******
ASIDE: Personal to Steve Wieck, President and apparently God-King at White
Wolf Game Studios . . .
Steve, here's a personal challenge, which I expect you will ignore. You told
me today that White Wolf would give us no cooperation on this contract, and
make every possible demand on us, because you, President Steve, got your
feelings hurt. You gave me some really lame doubletalk, I challenged you, and
this is how you're getting even. No, that's not a quote - I wasn't recording
you - so don't weasel me on the words you used. That's what you meant, and you
made sure there was no misunderstanding. You let me know this was payback, and
I believe you were telling the truth, right then. Will you admit it in public?
In fact, Steve, if you can explain your behavior of the last two months
without either lying like a rug, or admitting that you've been petty, jealous,
childish and unprofessional, I will be damned impressed.
*******
We'll see. Maybe White Wolf will approve the rewritten manuscript, in which
case everyone will see a very good, clear, playable, well-organized,
well-illustrated GURPS MAGE. Maybe they'll wait the full 20 days, and reject
it with another surprising demand for changes. Either way, you'll hear -- from
us -- exactly what happens.
I don't expect this posting to make Steve Wieck like me any better. I expect
he'll get red in the face and gobble. But then, I don't think that the
Archangel Michael could make Steve Wieck like me any better. I can live with
that.
The point is that we won't bear this in silence. We won't mislead people by
saying that everything's all right, and we won't let White Wolf get away with
it either. Our distributors, and our retailers, and our players, will know
exactly how White Wolf treats us in exchange for the thousands of dollars of
our money - OF YOUR MONEY - that have already gone into their coffers on this
licensing deal. (And we're about to write them yet another big check.)
GURPS MAGE is a damn good book, whether it's ever published or not. I hope you
get to see it someday. If not, at least you'll get a play-by-play description
of the professional way White Wolf is working with us.
Diskraker
: (If you dislike long semi-flames that reveal unfair dealings in the
: game business, mutual contempt between hobby personalities, and so on,
: this posting will not interest you.
: I'm posting this only to rec.games.frp, and to the Illuminati Online
: conference io.games.sjg.gurps. I have no objection to its being reposted
: elsewhere, if this is being discussed elsewhere.)
: [Lots of appalling information removed.]
If it makes you feel any better, I operate a retail store that sells SJ and WW
products, but for this, I will boycott. And yes, I'll make sure WW knows. Fnord.
Beamish Boy
Steve Jackson says:
[long epic saga in which Stephen Wieck gradually transforms into
Kevin Siembieda deleted]
G's, Steve, what in the name of Foo did you do? Eat meat or something?
There's definitely something up when the only good White Wolf products
are produced by Steve Jackson Games, and the only good thing about White
Wolf Magazine is Chris McCubbin's column (coincidentally written by
someone who write mostly for Steve Jackson Games).
This is all part of a plot, right? Pre-release hype for INWO?
Cause if it's not fiction, I'm going to start thinking that those
folks in Atlanta have been on clove cigarettes too long...
Good thing there are decent folks in the game industry to balance out
the prima donna whackos...
Or maybe it's just war between Atlanta and Austin? Any comments from
Dav'Nalleous? :)
--
Robbie Westmoreland, Dilettante | dances with geeks | rob...@inviso.com
v2.1 GG$/SS-d+(++)H-sg+p?aua-w+v++(---)C++$UV/L+>+++P?>++L>+++3(-)EN++(+++)
K++W$M!V-po+Y+(++)t-!5j(++)r++>+++Gtv+b++!DB-e++>++++u+@hf+rn-(---)y+
Why yes, I speak for the entire U.S. government. Why do you ask?
Daniel B. Holzman
it's act together. I've spend upwards of $100 on the Storyteller
system, and I run a campaign here in Chicago. I would hate to have to
stop the campaign because I was no longer willing to use White Wolf's
product. And you can tell White Wolf that I said so.
--
Daniel B. Holzman -- Love does not subtract, it multiples. -- All acts of love
and pleasure are Her rituals. -- An it Harm none, do what you Will. -- They
took my name and stole my heritage, but they didn't get my goat. -- The
word is all of us. -- Remember the Twelth Commandment and keep it Wholly.
Robert Kelly
A lot.
I would truly like to see my two favorite game companies have a
smooth professional relationship. I do own materials of interest
from both companies -- including the Storyteller system.
I also see the collaboration between SJ Games, WW, and WotC the
only way to prevent T$R from dominating the entire market even
more so than what it does.
As a customer, I hope things con be worked out.
If not, I am known for not buying people's work simply because
they are percieved as an asshole. Same goes for game companies.
Robert Kelly
rke...@triton.unm.edu
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The Seaweed of Crime bears bitter Fruit-of-the-Looms"
Suicide Squid Summer Special
Michael Minnotte
White Wolf.
Even those of you who hate MtG should concede this beneficial side
effect.
Thanks for the enlightenment, Steve.
Mike Minnotte
Jamison Graff
Tor Iver Wilhelmsen <tor...@pvv.unit.no> wrote:
>
>Or the thread should be taken to .advocacy. I agree. Problem is, you have
>all these SJG employees on the net (through io.com), and not many WW
>people (the only ones I can remember posting have been ex-emps and
>freelancers). So the balance might not be too easy to find. Perhaps in
>the next issue of WW Magazine.
Actually, the WW people are pretty net.connected - they just don't pipe
up too much unless you insult them by name ;). After the "Internet Speaks"
thread, there were several lists of WW people who read, but seldom responded
to, postings.
It is a real shame to see this deal collapse like this. Contractual disputes
are common, but it seems likely that with these small, almost family operations
involved, things could get pretty personal (as opposed to having the associated
legal departments fight it out). Screaming presidents do not bode well for
future cooperation, even if it is in the best interests of both firms (that
pesky Prisoners' Dilemma popping up again).
I don't know what's going on, but I hope they get over it. I have heavy
investments in both firms' products (although, in all honesty, I'm not fond
of GURPS Vampire, either as a GURPS book or a Vampire book).
Jamison
jtg...@nwu.edu
>
--
Jamison Graff
Dept. of Industrial Engineering & Management Science
Northwestern University, Evanston, Illinois
jtg...@nwu.edu, jam...@merle.acns.nwu.edu
paolo bertiglia
: The point is that we won't bear this in silence. We won't mislead people by
: saying that everything's all right, and we won't let White Wolf get away
: with
: it either. Our distributors, and our retailers, and our players, will know
: exactly how White Wolf treats us in exchange for the thousands of dollars
: of our money - OF YOUR MONEY - that have already gone into their coffers on
: this
: licensing deal. (And we're about to write them yet another big check.)
I'm not taking any side as I'm a GURPS and a Storytelling fan.
For several days I read the rumors about the Mage affair with some concern.
I am now happy that at least one side is come out with his view of the
story but I'm sad that since now only one has speak and that those speak
had to be a 'semi'flame.
I'm sure that Mr. Jackson is very upset and I think that the guy at WW
must have their reasons (good or not), but I fear to see the gaming
conferences become a perpetual Mac vs PC like flame war.
I ask to all to not begin to burn this fine comunity where I'm feel very
well and I'll ask to both of the side to settle down the issues with care
about the world outside.
Those are mine ten cents.
Paolo Bertiglia (from Italy :)
P.S. Sorry about my not excellent knowledge of the English language.
David Nalle
>Why? I know the people I play with. They'd take a look at the systems and
>say "we have to do what to make up a character?" Then they'd all go back
>to something less Byzantine.
The character creation system, even in the 6th edition is NOT 'Byzantine'.
It's straight point allocation, much simpler than Hero or a number of other
games. It DOES involve making a lot of decisions and thinking out what
the character is like, but to my mind that's a good thing.
>It was also very hard to read. Fuzzy sans-serif fonts just don't cut it
>for me.
Can't argue with that. As I've mentioned in email we had nightmarish
printing problems with that edition.
> The game also really overused low-resolution prints of Macintosh
>art and Xeroxes of Duerer woodcut studies for my taste.
There's not one Durer woodcut, or any woodcut art for that matter, in
the book. There is some out of copyright art, and original art designed
to fit the same general style, but the woodcutish look and the low-res
look is the result of the lousy print job. Take a closer look. You
may find some of the stuff blurry and badly printed, but you won't see
any pixels or anything to indicate low-res output. Hell, the proofs
look great. Wish that had translated through into the final product.
Needless to say we're getting the next edition printed elsewhere.
>Finally, there was too little "Ysgarth" in "Ysgarth". What I mean by this
>is that there were all sorts of hints dropped at a world (that looked quite
>a bit like Hargrave's old campaign) but no real meat.
This is the thing that REALLY ticked me off about the WW review. Where
did he (and you) get the idea that this book was intended to present
the background? As said in the introduction, the book you've got is the
RULES section of the game, not the complete game. We've got background
material for that edition in other books, plus a complete Worldbook coming
out later this year. The bits of background which are in there are
either provided for illustrative purposes, or because they are useful for
character creation. They're a tiny fraction of the background material
we've got in print and coming soon. You may have seen some of my posts of
background stuff. We've got reams of it, all the meat you're looking
for and more.
Dave
Tor Iver Wilhelmsen
pber...@io.com (paolo bertiglia) writes:
>
>I'm sure that Mr. Jackson is very upset and I think that the guy at WW
>must have their reasons (good or not), but I fear to see the gaming
>conferences become a perpetual Mac vs PC like flame war.
>
GURPS vs. HERO. Dice vs. diceless. AD&D vs. everything else. Ysgarth
complexity. Battlelords of the 23rd Century plugging. Storyteller flaming.
Shadowrun bugs. Games Workshop expensiveness.
Ah, the good old days of rec.games.frp *pine,pine*
>I ask to all to not begin to burn this fine comunity where I'm feel very
>well and I'll ask to both of the side to settle down the issues with care
>about the world outside.
>
Or the thread should be taken to .advocacy. I agree. Problem is, you have
all these SJG employees on the net (through io.com), and not many WW
people (the only ones I can remember posting have been ex-emps and
freelancers). So the balance might not be too easy to find. Perhaps in
the next issue of WW Magazine.
>P.S. Sorry about my not excellent knowledge of the English language.
You write better english than some Americans I have seen on the net. Not
to worry. :-)
- Tor Iver
--
Tor Iver Wilhelmsen <tor...@pvv.unit.no> CS student at NTH, Trondheim, NO
Info: http://www.pvv.unit.no/~toriver/ Member of The Software Workshop, UNIT
"Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced."
- Dr. Barry Gehm's corollary to Clarke's law
Guy Robinson
since The Fantasy Trip and the Car Wars micro-game. I must admit
that I prefer Hero to GURPS, but I can not fault the wide variety
of GURPS source books.
I bought WW`s Ars Magica in a sale, found it an interesting gaming
reference work but ultimately unplayable. From my reading of
the WW news group I decided that most of their products where too
pretentious or full of holes to use.
Steve Jackson gets my sympathy, although producing GURPS versions
of a another company's gaming material is a high risk project,
and I feel that he should not really have been suprised at it's
failure. Even if WW had been co-operative or reliable.
Thanks, Steve, for posting your mailnote. Recently I have been
frustrated by the RQ4 project being stopped by an AH-Chaosium
dispute. The only information that leaked out about this
situation was handed out on the basis that if someone is told
then that person must keep mum.
--
Guy Robinson guy....@rx.xerox.com
[implied disclaimer]
The real meaning of Christmas is a Mid-Winter feast.
Bryan J. Maloney
Well, I've got a copy of Ysgarth #6, and I have to say the following:
Interesting ideas. I'd never use it.
Why? I know the people I play with. They'd take a look at the systems and
say "we have to do what to make up a character?" Then they'd all go back
to something less Byzantine.
It was also very hard to read. Fuzzy sans-serif fonts just don't cut it
for me. The game also really overused low-resolution prints of Macintosh
art and Xeroxes of Duerer woodcut studies for my taste.
Finally, there was too little "Ysgarth" in "Ysgarth". What I mean by this
is that there were all sorts of hints dropped at a world (that looked quite
a bit like Hargrave's old campaign) but no real meat.
Anyway, the next go-round is promised to be cleaner. I'll take a look.
--
Bryan Maloney
James Nicoll
>I also see the collaboration between SJ Games, WW, and WotC the
>only way to prevent T$R from dominating the entire market even
>more so than what it does.
It's a closely kept secret in the retail end of rpging, but
the only way to keep TSR from dominating the market is for the consumers
to buy non-TSR products.
James Nicoll
David Q. Spitzley
WW post some sort of response here, just on the grounds of keeping your
customers informed. Any word of a response on any of the other non-io
discussions?
In any case, I think our friend from overseas has a point; those of us
who aren't involved as direct participants should do what we can to keep
the flame low; if it comes to a fight, let's not have the seconds duking
it out as well.
Holter, Matthijs 6-94
>the only way to keep TSR from dominating the market is for the consumers
>to buy non-TSR products.
>
> James Nicoll
:-D Right.
-matthijs
Richard G Tomasso
heard rumors that WW was getting a big ego, but this seems rediculous.
(To whoever made the comment about Steve Weick turning into Kevin Siembieda,
Bravo!)
Anyway, I heard that the original deal had been worked out by Loyd Blankenship
and Mark Rein-Hagen. I know Loyd left SJG and I'm not sure what Mark is doing
at WW anymore. But could this be part of the problem? ie, the people who knew
what you all meant aren't there to guide the process along anymore?
Whatever the case may be, I hope the whole mess works itself out.
Jonas Karlsson
>
> Steve Jackson says:
> [long epic saga in which Stephen Wieck gradually transforms into
> Kevin Siembieda deleted]
ROFL!
--
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+ Jonas Karlsson - jon...@io.com + I am a number, not a man! +
+ but email to - jon...@umdix.umdc.umu.se + 42 +
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Jonas Karlsson
Sorry the trouble was for real though...