> Where exactly did you see the call to destroy the system? This is the
> bipolar mentality that the system has instilled in the majority of the
> population for decades now. Recognising that capitalism is destructive
> does not mean that I call to destroy it. What I am saying is that only
> by creating another parallel system that sets different goals for
> society can actually save us.

> As for the 17 flavours of capitalism, if you look around the western
> style democracies and their history, the've been many different
> governments of different ideologies. The essential dogmas of perpetual
> growth of production and consumption have never been questioned and
> the masses have always been oppressed every time they dared stand up
> and demand they are listened to. Thucydides, 2430 years ago wrote "And
> it is not as if we were the first to make this law, or to act upon it
> when made: we found it existing before us, and shall leave it to exist
> for ever after us; all we do is to make use of it, knowing that you
> and everybody else, having the same power as we have, would do the
> same as we do".

> He was talking about the oppression of the weak. As long as there is
> someone with greater power than the rest he will take advantage of it
> and use it against them. If we can't understand that then we're still
> in the prehistoric age (mentally-wise).

> Nikolaos

> On 27 March 2012 10:04, Christopher | VoteCAP 2012
> <christopher.por...@canadianactionparty.ca> wrote:

>> Ps there are 17 flavours out there in Canada  and people keep choosing the main three with a dash of a forth.

>> A stein consortium of a fifth that has legal and moral controls in it targeted to the 40% not voting and getting the involved would change the system.

>> On 2012-03-27, at 9:51, Nikolaos Gr <grysp...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> 60% voted in the last elections as opposed to 59% in the previous ones. The participation has nothing to do with the robo calls. Participation has been dropping consistently in the whole western world for the past 20 years. THe reason is simple: People realise more and more that choosing between different flavours of the same system makes no difference. We are called to chose if we want to have a destructive capitalism with a pleasant face or with a grim face.

>> Capitalism does not cut it anymore; whether that's with a social democratic face or with a neoliberal face. The solutions you're describing have worked before in an extremely different environment under very different circumstances. Corporations and money have unprecedented power and under the current system where profit (using any means) is the main target of society, nothing can change. We have to redefine our goals as a society. Asking capitalism to be humane reminds me of some gay activists who are asking the christian church to accept them. This is against the nature and the dogmas of the institution. If you don't like them then just reject them and make a new one but don't ask the lions to become vegetarian.

>> Nikolaos

>> On 27 March 2012 09:27, Christopher | VoteCAP 2012 <christopher.por...@canadianactionparty.ca> wrote:

>>> It is ironic that solutions that worked on the past are viewed as utopia. I completely understand what you are saying and just having a passing thought.

>>> This civilization started to horde and now feeling the crunch of what that means. Scarcity brings anger and greed.

>>> People need to take back the control of the money. I believe the issue is that institutions are controlling its utilization. When I talk about Government Crested Money , I Mean Government in its' pure form  By the people for the people. The only way to achieve that is for electoral reform in Canada that empowers people to once again vote and to have their vote guaranteed. Instant recall, more particiapation on decisions made by government, etc. we all can fill in the blanks.

>>> From electoral reform we can get back to monetary reform.

>>> I just finished an election where only 43% of the population voted. Reason why.... Robo call scandal arose At the start of it and ended the day of the vote.

>>> 43% of a riding deciding who will lead them all. It makes you sick how few participate. So we need people to get political and change within the system that we control right now.

>>> All talk of cresting a new one, like a Phoenix from the ashes is wasteful of the precious time we have to hand this to the high schoolers not yet in debt.

>>> On 2012-03-27, at 8:24, Nikolaos Gr <grysp...@gmail.com> wrote:

>>> I completely agree with you Christopher, but let us not think that such a move would be a panacea. This could be a good first goal to achieve, even if I believe that it is more utopic than asking to overthrow the system completely. Private ownership of credit and debt is the founding stone of the current system and without it it cannot survive.
>>> Nikolaos

>>> On 26 March 2012 14:23, Christopher Porter <christopher.por...@canadianactionparty.ca> wrote:

>>>> I would look more into CAP policies.

>>>> Bank of Canada is owned by Canadians. We used it to create Government Created Money until 1974. Built a lot of infrastructure that we all benefit now.

>>>> After 1974 Government started "borrowing" Bank Created Money that has interest attached to it.

>>>> A reversion to the Bank of Canada for Government Expenditures is in our Nationalist Interest and is the cornerstone for CDN Economical Sovereignty.

>>>> Either that or continue to pay the 170 million dollars of interest a day CDN's pay to private banking institutions to use their Debt Created Money.

>>>> Once again offer to have somebody present this to your group and you can decide.

>>>> Leave you with Prime Minister William Lyon McKenzie King's words who Nationalized our Bank of Canada which EVERY Government has ignored since 1974. This is why CAP was formed in 1997.

>>>> "Once a nation parts with the control of its currency and credit,
>>>> it matters not who makes the nations laws. Usury, once in control,
>>>> will wreck any nation. Until the control of the issue of currency
>>>> and credit is restored to government and recognized as its most sacred
>>>> responsibility, all talk of the sovereignty of parliament and
>>>> of democracy is idle and futile."

>>>> On Mon, Mar 26, 2012 at 2:10 PM, ooHugh <hughgoldr...@gmail.com> wrote:

>>>>> In summary,

>>>>> 1) Please don't black bait.  It's divisive.  The Canadian Occupy
>>>>> movement has very little to do with black bloc actions. If people in
>>>>> it - as is the case in Toronto, Ottawa, Vancouver and Montreal - have
>>>>> participated in black blocs at other times, that's their business.
>>>>> Unless you are demanding a purge of people who have participated in
>>>>> black blocs outside of Occupy, I don't see the purpose in bringing
>>>>> this up.  Given that such a purge would be wildly undemocratic,
>>>>> backbiting and exemplify the kind of infighting that characterizes the
>>>>> left, I hope no one is proposing it.  For the record I am a pacifist
>>>>> and don't see the use in Black Bloc tactics.  But I see black baiting
>>>>> as violent as well - these people are your allies, respected and
>>>>> responsible community organizers.  They disagree on the tactical
>>>>> utitlity of a narrow spectrum of actions.  That is all.

>>>>> 2) In a larger sense, unless you are explicitly a pacifist you should
>>>>> not expect to participate in a movement where no one believes in
>>>>> violence.  Here's a pointer: the other side believes in violence too.
>>>>> They just have police forces and armies to coordinate it.  The fact
>>>>> that a few of our people may believe in  breaking windows when not
>>>>> organizing with Occupy does not concern me overly.  Nor should it
>>>>> concern you.  I am skeptical of the effectiveness of the tactic and I
>>>>> think it's fine to have the debate but let's be reasonable - these
>>>>> people are not eating babies, they are committing property violence
>>>>> against large corporations.  IF that.

>>>>> 3) If:
>>>>>  a) Your Occupy uses GAs and committee work
>>>>>  b) Your Occupy functions on a consensus model
>>>>>  c) Your Occupy uses direct action as a political tool
>>>>>  d) Your Occupy is leaderless and non-hierarchical.

>>>>>  Congratulations, you are organizing inside an anarchist framework.
>>>>> This is an anarchist method of governance and association - the
>>>>> process is the point.  This doesn't mean our goals are explicitly
>>>>> anarchist - although mine are - or that the purpose of the Occupy
>>>>> movement is to promote anarchism.  But be aware, it is internally
>>>>> anarchist in structure (and ps wags let me cut you off by noting
>>>>> anarchy is not allergic to structure, only hierarchy) and you organize
>>>>> in an anarchist framework.  Thank David Graeber and the good folks at
>>>>> OWS for that.

>>>>> 4) Not much left to reply to about 'banking honesty' and 'corporate
>>>>> responsibility' other than that I would expect better from a Canadian
>>>>> nationalist.  Ditch CAP and try to revive the Waffle if you're so keen
>>>>> on Canadian economic sovereignty.  But either way please acknowledge
>>>>> that both the purpose and ownership structure of private banks and
>>>>> corporations requires them to behave irresponsibly and dishonestly.
>>>>> The extent to which they are either of these things reflects their
>>>>> momentary fiscal interests and not any kind of moral fibre.

>>>>> Sorry if this is a bit cranky, all.  I am peeved Mulcair won AND
>>>>> covered in burns.

>>>>> In solidarity from Occupy Ottawa,
>>>>> Hugh Goldring (presently burned in a Toronto bed)

>>>>> On Mar 23, 2:12 pm, Christopher Porter
>>>>> <christopher.por...@canadianactionparty.ca> wrote:
>>>>>> Interesting points brought up by two parties now..

>>>>>> So the whole purpose of Occupy is to promote Anarchy in its true message?

>>>>>> And corporate responsibility and banking honesty is secondary?

>>>>>> I think that you have to go back to the first wide range of the Occupy
>>>>>> Marches. I am certain most attended because to ensure corporate
>>>>>> responsibility and banking honesty. Not to promote Anarchy.

>>>>>> I would be interested to hear other's opinions on the intention of Occupy.
>>>>>> Occupy Wall Street was very clear in its intentions. Anarchy seems to be a
>>>>>> secondary development.

>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 1:14 PM, Occupy Kingston
>>>>>> <occupykings...@gmail.com>wrote:

>>>>>>> Anarchism isnt violence.

>>>>>>> The Occupy Movement is inherently anarchist.

>>>>>>> Black Bloc is a protest tactic used to defend protesters from police
>>>>>>> violence, provides recon on the police, and creates escape routes for
>>>>>>> protesters in harm's way. Street Medics? That's part of Black Bloc
>>>>>>> tactics.

>>>>>>> The property damage aspect (property damage is NOT violence. Violence
>>>>>>> is against people, not inanimate objects) used during black bloc are
>>>>>>> done at night, away from any rally. It is not part of black bloc
>>>>>>> tactics to do property damage during rallys. This aspect has been
>>>>>>> hijacked by both the police, and less often hooligans who take
>>>>>>> advantage of social strife to loot (ironic as the conditions of
>>>>>>> poverty which create said hooligans are part of the sick capitalist
>>>>>>> system we live in).

>>>>>>> corporate responsibility and banking honesty were the trigger for
>>>>>>> Occupy, not the sole purpose of the Movement.

>>>>>>> -Matt Thornton, Occupy Kingston

>>>>>>> On Mar 23, 12:43 pm, Christopher Porter
>>>>>>> <christopher.por...@canadianactionparty.ca> wrote:
>>>>>>>> I am tired of attending rallies and meetings and hearing talk of a
>>>>>>>> "Canadian Spring". I am tired of having the pressures of Anarchy get
>>>>>>> mixed
>>>>>>>> up in the real message we are seeking... corporate responsibility and
>>>>>>>> banking honesty.Allowing violence and pressure to head that way only
>>>>>>>> alienates the 98% that have choosen not to come out in full force to
>>>>>>>> support the change we are seeking.

>>>>>>>> It is why I started White Bloc... WEAR WHITE and stand up to peaceful
>>>>>>>> protest. We must separate ourselves and show by mass that we want change
>>>>>>>> through peace and opportunity to be listened to. .

>>>>>>>> Follow on Twitter and message @WhiteBloc to let us know when your rallies
>>>>>>>> are. We can show the oppression being done internally and externally by
>>>>>>>> standing up separating ourselves. Our message is too important to allow
>>>>>>>> increase oppression and police actions by those that adhere to violence.

>>>>>>>> Http://twitter.com/WhiteBloc - The Original WHITE BLOC. WEAR WHITE and
>>>>>>> take
>>>>>>>> back peaceful protest. Stand up to the violence hindering change!

>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> If you are not participating in the protection of Canada's sovereignty,
>>>>>>>> you are spectating or speculating it.

>>>>>>>> Thanks for your Participation
>>>>>>>> Together, We Can Save Canada

>>>>>>>> Christopher Porter - Leader
>>>>>>>> Call me direct: 250-999-VOTE
>>>>>>>> Follow me on Facebook <http://on.fb.me/CAPfacebook>
>>>>>>>> <http://www.VoteCAP.ca>

>>>>>>>> Subscribe to CAP's Emails here <http://mailer.canadianactionparty.ca>

>>>>>> --
>>>>>> If you are not participating in the protection of Canada's sovereignty,
>>>>>> you are spectating or speculating it.

>>>>>> Thanks for your Participation
>>>>>> Together, We Can Save Canada

>>>>>> Christopher Porter - Leader
>>>>>> Call me direct: 250-999-VOTE
>>>>>> Follow me on Facebook <http://on.fb.me/CAPfacebook>
>>>>>> <http://www.VoteCAP.ca>

>>>>>> Subscribe to CAP's Emails here <http://mailer.canadianactionparty.ca>

>>>> --
>>>> If you are not participating in the protection of Canada's sovereignty,
>>>> you are spectating or speculating it.

>>>> Thanks for your Participation
>>>> Together, We Can Save Canada

>>>> Christopher Porter - Leader
>>>> Call me direct: 250-999-VOTE
>>>> Follow me on Facebook

>>>> Subscribe to CAP's Emails here