Flora of Panipat- Murraya paniculata from PIET Campus Samalkha Panipat

[Balkar Arya]

Dear All

Murraya paniculata

Family Rutaceae

From Garden of PIET Campus Samalkha Panipat
--
Regards

Dr Balkar Singh
Head, Deptt. of Botany and Biotechnology
Arya P G College, Panipat
Haryana-132103
09416262964

[harithasandhya]

Thank you for posting these beautiful pictures.

This is a common garden plant in Trivandrum. The flowers are very
fragrant and attract a lot of bees and butterflies. This small tree
suddenly blooms in one burst now and then and the whole tree would be
full of flowers. The most interesting thing that I have observed is
that all the Murraya paniculata plants in the city blooms in
synchrony. If I see a plant in blossom I can be pretty sure that all
the other trees would be full of fragrant flowers!

Regards,
Sandhya

On Jul 26, 6:40 am, Balkar Arya <balkara...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear All
> *Murraya paniculata*
> *Family Rutaceae
> *
> *From Garden of PIET Campus Samalkha Panipat
> *--

> Regards
>
> Dr Balkar Singh
> Head, Deptt. of Botany and Biotechnology
> Arya P G College, Panipat
> Haryana-132103
> 09416262964
>

>  Murraya paniculata (1).JPG
> 175KViewDownload
>
>  Murraya paniculata (2).JPG
> 258KViewDownload
>
>  Murraya paniculata (3).JPG
> 240KViewDownload
>
>  Murraya paniculata (4).JPG
> 180KViewDownload
>
>  Murraya paniculata (5).JPG
> 214KViewDownload
>
>  Murraya paniculata (6).JPG
> 186KViewDownload
>
>  Murraya paniculata (7).JPG
> 201KViewDownload

[Smilax004]

Yes, Murraya paniculata. Orange Jessamine. The flowers are fragrant in
the night.

Regards,
Giby

On Jul 26, 6:40 am, Balkar Arya <balkara...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear All
> *Murraya paniculata*
> *Family Rutaceae
> *

> *From Garden of PIET Campus Samalkha Panipat
> *--

> Regards
>
> Dr Balkar Singh
> Head, Deptt. of Botany and Biotechnology
> Arya P G College, Panipat
> Haryana-132103
> 09416262964
>

[Madhuri Pejaver]

yes I agree with totally. This in Marathi called as Kunti. It flowers for 3 to 4 days profusely and is fun to watch. otherwise has lustrous green leaves, very healthy, thick leaves without flowers also make the plant a delightful sight.
Madhuri

--- On Tue, 26/7/11, harithasandhya <haritha...@yahoo.com> wrote:

[promila chaturvedi]

It is known as Kamini in hindi.

[Balkar Arya]

Thanks for Confirmation Sandhya Ji Promila ji, Madhuri Ji and Giby ji

--

[Vijayasankar]

My understanding is that the cultivated ornamental plant (in India) is Murraya exotica and the one that occurs in wild is M. paniculata.
Of course some works treat them together. But according to few & me, the two species are different.
What do you think?

 

Regards 

 

Vijayasankar Raman
National Center for Natural Products Research
University of Mississippi

[Balkar Arya]

Dear Vijaysankar ji

According to theplantlist 

Murraya paniculata (L.) Jack is accepted name and M exotica is a synonym

[mani nair]

Balkar ji, beautiful flowers.  These are highly fragrant especially during the rain and the fruits are liked by birds like bulbul.

Regards,

Mani.

[Mahadeswara]

I agree with Vijayashankar ji. I am of the same opinion.

On Jul 26, 7:21 pm, Vijayasankar <vijay.botan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> My understanding is that the cultivated ornamental plant (in India) is *Murraya
> exotica* and the one that occurs in wild is *M. paniculata*.

> Of course some works treat them together. But according to few & me, the two
> species are different.
> What do you think?
>
> Regards
>
> Vijayasankar Raman
> National Center for Natural Products Research
> University of Mississippi
>

> On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 7:44 AM, Balkar Arya <balkara...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Thanks for Confirmation Sandhya Ji Promila ji, Madhuri Ji and Giby ji
>
> > On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 3:02 PM, promila chaturvedi <
> > thegardener.chaturv...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> It is known as Kamini in hindi.
>

> >> On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 2:56 PM, Madhuri Pejaver <formpeja...@yahoo.com>wrote:
>
> >>> yes I agree with totally. This in Marathi called as Kunti. It flowers for
> >>> 3 to 4 days profusely and is fun to watch. otherwise has lustrous green
> >>> leaves, very healthy, thick leaves without flowers also make the plant a
> >>> delightful sight.
> >>> Madhuri
>

> >>> --- On Tue, 26/7/11, harithasandhya <harithasand...@yahoo.com> wrote:

[Ushadi micromini]

In Bengali its called Kamini.....grows in both east and west bengal as
Kamini...

In kolkata, it flowers profusely in summer, esp if it rains a
little...
as children we knew it would rain that day if the KAMINI would flower
in
early am.... filling the air with intoxicating scent...
Only problem with flowers is if you pluck an individual flower...
the petals fall off by the time you bring them in ...
so one has to cut the twig without causing any jarring
reverberations...
then it survives inside the home for a day...

NOT all plants develop fruits though.. in Kolkata..
my friends have a tree that gets beautiful red berries, I have two
that never give
any berries, though they flower profusely... and my friend's and my
plants are
in the same kinda micro-climate and surroundings... so the same
pollinators are around ...



DOES ANY ONE KNOW WHY IS THIS that some get fruits and some other
not??


DOES any one know why is it ?
Usha di



============

[H S]

M. paniculata and M. exotica are two different plants.

regards,

--

 - H.S.

A scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, - a mere heart of stone

[ushadi Micromini]

HS:
thats is a profound statement, like some raja's edict!
sounds like you are saying JUST BECAUSE I SAID SO...
I am sure you did not mean it that way....

Can you tell me how is it different?

thanks

Pronouncing one cancer is different from some other cancer does not let me off...
I believe same goes for first class botany  !!!
I hope   !!!
thanks
Usha di

PS I had also asked if some one knew why one Kamini frutis and another does not....
These are  serious questions, I deserve a serious answer from some one  who can
write about it  with references and authority....

===========

[H S]

Ushadi ji i have not commented on your statement... just i wrote bcoz on the plant list it show synonym of M. paniculata..

M. paniculata leaves are quite smaller and different than of M. exotica, 

flowers of exotica are fragrant and not of M. paniculata,, even size differs..

these are some morphological differences..

M. paniculata can grow like a tree, whereas M. exotica remains shrub or small tree.

regards

[H S]

Plant here in foto is M. exotica

Dr. Almeida treat this as var. of paniculata

regards,

[Vijayadas D]

not "in bengali "  in Bengla

--

Vijayadas
Electro Saudi Services Ltd.        

Salwa Garden Village, PB -7210
Riyadh -11462 , KSA

[Vijayasankar]

Thank you all, now its clear that there is difference of opinion in the nomenclature and synonymy of Murraya exotica with M. paniculata.
The synonymy is still under review in theplantlist.org. I have already mentioned the big difference i.e. the former is cultivated (may be a cultivar?) and the latter is wild.
Other differences as I observed are in the leaf shape and flower size.
Let's hear from other members who have seen both.

Dr. Usha, Giby may be able to answer your question :)

 

Regards 

 

Vijayasankar Raman
National Center for Natural Products Research
University of Mississippi

[hari lal]

M. paniculata kamni in hindi.
thanks for sharing good photo

On 7/27/11, Vijayasankar <vijay.b...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thank you all, now its clear that there is difference of opinion in the

> nomenclature and synonymy of *Murraya exotica* with *M. paniculata*.

--
HARI SHANKAR LAL
AT-SHIV KUTIR
PO-BARA BAZAR
DIST-HAZARIBAG
PIN-825301
JHARKHAND,INDIA
MOBILE-9431530563
EMAIL-t...@gmail.com

[Balkar Arya]

Dear Friends

If anyone of could share pics of both sp showing morphological differences, may prove a great help. In our wild variety not seen only cultivated is there

Thanks

[ushadi Micromini]

Dear Vijayadas ji: Your spelling is wrong... your intention was to correct me, but your own spelling is wrong...typo may be...
its not Bengla as you wrote....
the language is called Bengali (if you have doubts please google it, wikipedia has a nice essay at url: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengali_language)

The lipi or the script and the language itself is called

બંગાળી  in Gujarati;

बंगाली  in Hindi and

 বাংলা ( as in Bangla) in Bengali language....

Mistakes happen...so...

but before correcting others  it behooves us to check at least with websites on the net... esp if its not your own mother tongue..

lets keep this group's  collegiality and friendship intact....

Usha di

--------

[ushadi Micromini]

ok,
Could you please share photos or at the very oleast references?  citations of official publications....
thanks
Usha di
====

[Smilax004]

Dear Ushadi,

I think, you intended to mention Vijayasankar.
Kindly note that it is not Vijayadas but Vijayashankar.

Thanks and Regards
Giby

On Jul 28, 9:53 am, ushadi Micromini <microminipho...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Dear Vijayadas ji: Your spelling is wrong... your intention was to correct
> me, but your own spelling is wrong...typo may be...
> its not Bengla as you wrote....
> the language is called Bengali (if you have doubts please google it,
> wikipedia has a nice essay at url:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengali_language)
>
> The lipi or the script and the language itself is called
>

> *બંગાળી*  in Gujarati;

>
> बंगाली  in Hindi and
>

> * বাংলা ( as in Bangla) in Bengali language....*
>
> *
> *
>
> *Mistakes happen...so...*
>
> *but before correcting others  it behooves us to check at least with
> websites on the net... esp if its not your own mother tongue..*
>
> *lets keep this group's  collegiality and friendship intact....*
>
> **
>
> *Usha di*
>
> *--------
> *
>
> *
> *

> >  *Vijayadas
> > **Electro Saudi Services Ltd.         *
> > *Salwa Garden Village, PB -7210
> > Riyadh -11462 , KSA
> > *

[Ushadi micromini]

Dear Giby: no ... Dr Raman was not correcting my Bengali / etc...
it was Vijayadas D who onJul 27, 2011 at 7: 52 typed the
following...
I am copying and pasting...

Start quote...not "in bengali " in Bengla "

I was responding to Vijayadas D. ; with my write up with
different scripts....
JUST SCROLL UP A LITTLE AND YOU WILL GET TO HIS MESSAGE correcting
Bengali vs Bangal etc etc
Thats all
=====
AND if you must know, Dr. V. Raman never gets into these silly
arguments...
from what I know of him from his writing...
he would never write something like that and with a typo to boot.
======
And Dear Giby: the same Dr Raman thought that you will be
able to answer my scientific questions posed above ...
can you?
will you?
thanks
Usha di..
PS if you don't specialize in this field its ok....

[Smilax004]

Dear Ushadiji,

Thanks for clarifying and sorry for the confusion.
When I replied to the thread I think I missed (or there was some
problem) the post by Vijayadas and I got confused then.
Sorry again. I know Vijaysankar.
Further, a request, if you feel that the argument is silly just leave
it. We have so may serious things to discuss and learn. Why don't we
try avoid silly arguments?

Regards,
Giby

On Jul 28, 12:17 pm, Ushadi micromini <microminipho...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[ushadi Micromini]

Yes...
so why dont you tell me about this plant? instead..
thanks
Usha di
======

[ushadi Micromini]

Dear Balkar ji:

Googling brought up several interesting facts...
Murraya panniculata is native to Australia,
yet considered a noxious weed in some parts now...
interferes with their cow pastures and beef harvesting I guess....!!!

Gardenweb ( a community of home gardeners who exchange info and experiences in USA
has this pic... see attached file...
http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/fragrant/msg121657564433.html
Relevant accompanying write up was :
I quote:   ""    * Posted by Joanmary_z10 z10 Ft. L. Fl. (My Page) on        Thu, Feb 3, 05 at 22:16 

I'm in Zone 10, semi tropical. Both my Murraya Paniculata and the smaller version M. 'Exotica' P. are outside. The 'exotica' grows at the base of the M.P. which is 6' tall. In this way, I have a longer 'flowering flush' = fragrance!

 

The soil is warm here resulting in very fast germination. Try setting up a system where your soil will be kept warm, not hot then you'll have faster germination, if that is a problem for you.

 

In reaping the berries: if you 'pluck' them off, they are probably not mature yet. Very gently give a very slight 'pull'. If it does not come off, leave it till its more mature. In fact, you will find that when the berries are 'ripe' they will fall to the floor.

 

I've included a picture here of the difference between the larger and smaller types. Notice the larger leaves and the elongated seed of the M.P. The smaller 'exotica' has smaller leaves and rounded berries, and when opened, they are both absolutely different.

 

In warmer soil, the little seedlings will also grow faster.

Hope this helps.

 

    * Posted by Joanmary_z10 z10 Ft. L. Fl. (My Page) on

      Sun, Feb 6, 05 at 23:57

Am using Photobucket (Webshots wont allow posting of pics here) to post this comparison between Murraya Paniculata (large shrub) and Murraya 'Exotica' Paniculata, the smaller shrub.   "".

PLEASE NOTE THAT THESE ARE MOSTLY HOUSEWIVES...so  discussion may be not be academic ..

but I like their energy and openness and desire to learn...  love it in fact...

Usha di

========

[ushadi Micromini]

Gurucharanji:
googling for " murraya paniculata flower dissection"
some where along the way a nice bw line drawing of the
flower and ovary etc of murraya paniculate...
the figure could non be copied...
but I could access the accompanying text which red, I quote:
" 

Murraya paniculata is cultivated as an ornamental shrub, whereas M. koenigii is cultivated for its curry leaves. Leaves of Skimmia laureola are burnt in order to purify air. Ruta (rue), Zanthoxylum (toothache tree), and Casimiroa are medicinal. Boenninghausenia (‘Pisu-mar-buti’) is used as an insecticidal. Murraya paniculata ‘Kamini’ Cultivated evergreen shrub. Leaves: Alternate, imparipinnate, leaflets 5-7, gland-dotted, coriaceous, exstipulate, unicostate reticulate. Inflorescence: Axillary or terminal many flowered cymes. Flower: Ebracteate, pedicellate, complete, actinomorphic, bisexual, hypogynous, pentamerous, cyclic. Calyx: 5, gamosepalous, valvate, green, inferior. Corolla: 5, polypetalous, imbricate, gland-dotted, fragrant, white, inferior. Androecium: 10, in two whorls, outer whorl alternating with petals, inner opposite (diplostemonous), anthers bithecous, basifixed, dehiscence longitudinal, introrse. Gynoecium: Bi-to tricarpellary syncarpous superior ovary, bi-to trilocular, 1-2 ovules in each loculus, placentation axile, style long, stigma 2-3-fid, ovary surrounded at base by a large nectariferous disc. Fruit: Red ovoid berry."

it turned out to be a google doc type page...

scrolling up got me your name....

its a wonderful chapter... the entire chapter is many many pages long ...

at a website called Wiz IQ... that apparently charges money for accessing the full paper to students....

This file was put up by NOT YOU/YOURSELF but by somebody called Richard...

URL for this page is

http://www.wiziq.com/tutorial/78986-Biology-XI-5-Morph-of-Flowering-Plants-7-Floral-Diagrams-amp-Formulae

I am telling you  all this , ,,, so that IF THIS IS INFRINGEMENT OF YOUR COPYRIGHT ... you may decide what to do

about it...

=============

FOR OTHERS at eflora/Indiatreepix:

THIS WRITE UP IS wonderful for ID of the plant in question  originally from our own Dr. Gurucharan Singh.

Usha di

[Balkar Arya]

Thanks Usha Ji and Gurcharan Ji

[harithasandhya]

Dear friends,

This is getting more and more interesting and cofusing!
Had a look at the pictures and the link that Ushadi had posted.
According to it Murraya paniculata has elongated seeds and M.exotica
rounded ones. The berries I have collected recently from different
plants in various gardens in Trivandrum have elongated seeds. So they
have to be Murraya paniculata according to the above link.

But Vijaysankar says M.paniculata is the wild one and H.S. says
M.paniculata flowers are not fragrant. But the flowers of the trees
with elongated seeds are very fragrant.

Just wanted to share these observations.


Regards,
Sandhya

On Jul 29, 7:34 pm, Balkar Arya <balkara...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks Usha Ji and Gurcharan Ji
>

> On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 9:46 AM, ushadi Micromini <microminipho...@gmail.com

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> > Gurucharanji:
> > googling for " murraya paniculata flower dissection"
> > some where along the way a nice bw line drawing of the
> > flower and ovary etc of murraya paniculate...
> > the figure could non be copied...
> > but I could access the accompanying text which red, I quote:
> > "
>

> > *Murraya* *paniculata* is cultivated as an ornamental shrub, whereas M.

> > koenigii is cultivated for its curry leaves. Leaves of Skimmia laureola are
> > burnt in order to purify air. Ruta (rue), Zanthoxylum (toothache tree), and
> > Casimiroa are medicinal. Boenninghausenia (‘Pisu-mar-buti’) is used as an

> > insecticidal. *Murraya* *paniculata* ‘Kamini’ Cultivated evergreen shrub.

> > Leaves: Alternate, imparipinnate, leaflets 5-7, gland-dotted, coriaceous,
> > exstipulate, unicostate reticulate. Inflorescence: Axillary or terminal many

> > flowered cymes. *Flower*: Ebracteate, pedicellate, complete,

> > actinomorphic, bisexual, hypogynous, pentamerous, cyclic. Calyx: 5,
> > gamosepalous, valvate, green, inferior. Corolla: 5, polypetalous, imbricate,
> > gland-dotted, fragrant, white, inferior. Androecium: 10, in two whorls,
> > outer whorl alternating with petals, inner opposite (diplostemonous),
> > anthers bithecous, basifixed, dehiscence longitudinal, introrse. Gynoecium:
> > Bi-to tricarpellary syncarpous superior ovary, bi-to trilocular, 1-2 ovules
> > in each loculus, placentation axile, style long, stigma 2-3-fid, ovary
> > surrounded at base by a large nectariferous disc. Fruit: Red ovoid berry."
>
> > it turned out to be a google doc type page...
>
> > scrolling up got me your name....
>
> > its a wonderful chapter... the entire chapter is many many pages long ...
>
> > at a website called Wiz IQ... that apparently charges money for accessing
> > the full paper to students....
>
> > This file was put up by NOT YOU/YOURSELF but by somebody called Richard...
>
> > URL for this page is
>

> >http://www.wiziq.com/tutorial/78986-Biology-XI-5-Morph-of-Flowering-P...
>
> > <http://www.wiziq.com/tutorial/78986-Biology-XI-5-Morph-of-Flowering-P...>

[Gurcharan Singh]

Dear friends

I think these differences are not significant when we realise that all modern books and databases including GRIN and The Plant List treat M. exotica L. (as well as M. exotica DC.) is treated as synonym of M. paniculata. Except from shape of fruit and other minor differences there is nothing to warrant treating exotica as an independent species. 

-- 
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ 

[Ushadi micromini]

Giby, HS et al... I am still waiting for the scentific BOTANICAl
discussion... or knwledge...

about this plant and its variants... etc...

it would be good to know..
Usha di
=====

On Jul 28, 3:21 pm, ushadi Micromini <microminipho...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Yes...
> so why dont you tell me about this plant? instead..
> thanks
> Usha di
> ======
>

[Madhuri Raut]

Dear members,

Was studying on the net about M. paniculata and came across the following link which states that the only difference in the two that is M. paniculata and M Exotica is the size where M exotica is smalller that M Paniculata but there is some overlap

http://www.weeds.org.au/cgi-bin/weedident.cgi?tpl=plant.tpl&ibra=all&card=S44

Regards

Bhagyashri

[Madhuri Raut]

Dear members

Another link M. exotica & M. paniculata are not much differen. exotica has slightly larger flowers, paniculata has narrower petals & smaller flowers.

http://www.botanicalgarden.ubc.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=16902

Regards

Bhagyashri

[Gurcharan Singh]

Madhuri ji

That is why the two are treated as synonyms

http://www.theplantlist.org/tpl/record/kew-2510469

Hortus Third the most complete book on cultivated plants treats them synonyms

Even GRIN which treats it as distinct species has this comment:

"perhaps best treated as M. paniculata ‘Exotica’"

-- 
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ 

[Madhuri Raut]

Thank you  Sir 

Regards

Bhagyashri

[H S]

I think many times treating the two different species under the synonym of one species is ignorance of the distinct characters.

(terms like forma, sub species, etc etc.. rarely used in naming the plants,,, atleast in India)

regards,

[Mahadeswara]

I agree with Vijayasankar ji and H.S.ji. Both are different
species. Both these species are available in IIT Madras Campus and
C L R I Campus, Adyar Chennai. While the M. paniculata is wild,
M.exotica is cultivated. In photograph both the plants look like.
Unfortunately, I am not in Chennai now. I had the photographs of
both. I will try to dig out from the archives in due course and post
it to the group (depends on getting the photographs)

On Jul 26, 6:40 am, Balkar Arya <balkara...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear All
> *Murraya paniculata*
> *Family Rutaceae
> *
> *From Garden of PIET Campus Samalkha Panipat
> *--

> Regards
>
> Dr Balkar Singh
> Head, Deptt. of Botany and Biotechnology
> Arya P G College, Panipat
> Haryana-132103
> 09416262964
>

>  Murraya paniculata (1).JPG
> 175KViewDownload
>
>  Murraya paniculata (2).JPG
> 258KViewDownload
>
>  Murraya paniculata (3).JPG
> 240KViewDownload
>
>  Murraya paniculata (4).JPG
> 180KViewDownload
>
>  Murraya paniculata (5).JPG
> 214KViewDownload
>
>  Murraya paniculata (6).JPG
> 186KViewDownload
>
>  Murraya paniculata (7).JPG
> 201KViewDownload

[Gurcharan Singh]

Mahadeswara ji

For that that matter all species which have been described on the basis of different holotypes would be different species, because they will have some differences. If we have that concept there would be no heterotypic synonyms and we will have more than 5 lac species of angiosperms on this Earth, whereas most authors agree on this number being below 3 lacs. As I have written earlier also Hortus Third (considered Bible for cultivated plants), The Plant List, now even GRIN, and numerous other publications treat them as synonyms, and we would be doing little service to ignore them.

-- 
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ 

[H S]

Dear all,

If plant is different surely they will have some differences i guess... 

I think every one will agree that M. paniculata present in the wild as well as in cultivation whereas M. exotica or M. paniculata var. exotica or cv of M. paniculata whatever we say its commonly cultivated in the garden for the glossy laeves and beautiful flowers.. if its cv than who had made it???? no doubt they are different and in Maharashtra both can seen very commonly,,  those who eager to see the species can visit Amboli, Mahabaleshwar, Mathera, Pune, Bhimashankar etc places to see M. paniculata and M. exotica in Nashik garden, Mumbai (Rani baug, Bombay trust garden, Gorai, Sanjay Gandhi National Park in Plantation near pond,, etc etc..), Kolhapur, Pune garden.. etc etc.

regards,

[Gurcharan Singh]

Nothing can help one who does not want to see reason. Who can stop me if I insist on believing that whole taxonomic World is wrong. Let those who want to live in their World be so. 

-- 
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ 

[H S]

sorry sir, but i cant ignore the characters like many are doing..

Putting some name under synonym means treating that as a similar plant species... and i find no reason to call it similar.. may be someones taxonomic world found a reason to call it similar.. 

please one question.. Why earlier Good Taxonomist treated them different species or kept under Variety..

thanks..

[Vijayasankar]

Dear all,

We all know that Flora of China (FoC) is one of the most trusted efloras, and most of the time a ready reference for identifying our Indian plants, too.
It treats Murraya paniculata and M. exotica as different species. We knew this based on our field experience.
The differences, as per FoC are: [http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=121339]

Leaflet blades mostly suborbicular to ovate to elliptic, 1.5-6 cm wide    M. paniculata
Leaflet blades elliptic-obovate or obovate, 0.5-3 cm wide                      M. exotica

These may appear to be variable characters if we refer only herbarium specimens.
Some taxa for e.g. Flacourtia indica & F. romantchii, we know they are different based on their differences in habit, ecology etc., but its hard to find strong characters to distinguish them convincingly.

Regards 

 

Vijayasankar Raman
National Center for Natural Products Research
University of Mississippi

[Vijayasankar]

Pl read "Flacourtia ramontchi".

 

Regards 

 

Vijayasankar Raman
National Center for Natural Products Research
University of Mississippi

[H S]

Thanks Vijay ji for sharing this,, 

but even i know that Sirji will not agree with this..

thanks,

[Vijayasankar]

No HS ji, I am sure He won't neglect FoC's treatment. The editors of FoC also had the same opinion like ours, in both the cases Murraya and Flacourtia. We know that they are (the spp.) different. That's why when several Indian Floras treated them as synonyms, we could not agree. But someone does come with solutions, and now we are comfortable. Its matter of time. Thanks to the dynamic nature of plant systematics. Nothing is final!

 

Regards 

 

Vijayasankar Raman
National Center for Natural Products Research
University of Mississippi

[Gurcharan Singh]

Dear Vijaysankar ji

I am very much aware of eFlora of China and treatment in It, but let us appreciate the fact that Flora of China is 1997 publication. I have following to support my conclusion:

The Plant list...............................................2010

Wikipedia....................................................September, 2011

GRIN............................................................note on Sept, 2011 based on Beattie, A. 2011. pers. comm. via E–mail to L. Fowler on 15 Sept 2011. [re. M. exotica vs. M. paniculata].

Perhaps many more will follow. In my opinion two plants looking differently does not make much difference. What is important are differences are sufficient enough to merit distinction or merger. I believe in what taxonomic World thinks currently.

[H S]

I don't know, how many of us have seen these two plants, but i am sure who ever have seen these two proper specimen will never treat it as one..

before i had said and again i am saying there are number of gaps in The Plant List on Indian plants,,, those who want to follow it, no one can stop them..

regards,

[Gurcharan Singh]

AND Should not, it is good for all, if we want to remain as advanced as other countries.

-- 
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ 

[Giby Kuriakose]

I think one has to check the "specimens" of both the "species" to conclude this. 

While I was searching for Murraya, I found that, Murraya exotica L. is the accepted name for GRIN with  Murraya paniculata auct. nonn. (just put your pointer here to know what is auct. non.or refer http://www.northernontarioflora.ca/definitions.cfm) as synonym 

http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/npgs/html/taxon.pl?24702

and  

Murraya paniculata (L.) Jack. is the accepted name for "the plant list" with M. exotica L. as the synonym.

Why they come to a different conclusion? 

Regards,

Giby

 

 

--
GIBY KURIAKOSE PhD
Ashoka Trust for Research in Ecology and the Environment (ATREE),
Royal Enclave,
Jakkur Post, Srirampura
Bangalore- 560064
India
Phone - +91 9448714856 (Mobile)
visit my pictures @ http://www.flickr.com/photos/giby

[Giby Kuriakose]

Please refer this link for contents in "the plant list" http://www.theplantlist.org/tpl/record/kew-2510469


Regards,

Giby

[Ushadi micromini]

Dear all:

one thing I learned from studying cancer .... which is also a study of
structure, biology behaviour...

one thing I learned: is that we should try to keep an open mind...

things may turn out to be quite different and may surprise the heck
out of the learned minds, sometimes...


nothing is written in stone...
none of these floras.. or hortuses or whoever... went on the mountain
and returned with a burning bush...
these are not commandments from god... merely guidelines made by
experts from some local university groups or botanical gardens, they
study hard and make deductions
BUT what they say should sometimes be taken as a guideline and not
a commandment...
I am sure they never came to India and saw these murraya plants in
action...

may be it behooves someone/ one two a few ... from our group to do
that...

somewhere in this thread I had even agreed to collect specimen and
preserve and send for genetic analysis if someone was interested... or
had the grant monies and lab equipment and grad students to do the
research....

so lets not fight ... but do something constructive...

may be we should have a Murraya panniculata week.... once every 3
months, that will cover the entire year's worth of the plants
behaviour... leaf only, leaf and flowering stage, fruiting stage and
dormancy in deep winter...
which would perhaps be different in different parts of India...
where people will take pictures in Prescribed format, with
rulers /// and collect twigs, plant material fruits... etc...
and press herbarium specimen... from all states of India....

and may be ceylon ... kamini grows there too...

LETS THINK ABOUT THIS....


USHA di
===============

On Oct 18, 11:06 am, H S <hemsan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't know, how many of us have seen these two plants, but i am sure who
> ever have seen these two proper specimen will never treat it as one..
>
> before i had said and again i am saying there are number of gaps in The
> Plant List on Indian plants,,, those who want to follow it, no one can stop
> them..
>
> regards,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 9:49 PM, Gurcharan Singh <singh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Dear Vijaysankar ji
> > I am very much aware of eFlora of China and treatment in It, but let us
> > appreciate the fact that Flora of China is 1997 publication. I have
> > following to support my conclusion:
>
> > The Plant list...............................................2010
> > Wikipedia....................................................September,
> > 2011
> > GRIN............................................................note on

> > Sept, 2011 based on *Beattie, A.* 2011. pers. comm. via E–mail to L.
> > Fowler on 15 Sept 2011. [re. *M. exotica* vs. *M. paniculata*].

>
> > Perhaps many more will follow. In my opinion two plants looking differently
> > does not make much difference. What is important are differences are
> > sufficient enough to merit distinction or merger. I believe in what
> > taxonomic World thinks currently.
>
> > --
> > Dr. Gurcharan Singh
> > Retired  Associate Professor
> > SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
> > Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
> > Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089
> >http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/
>

> > On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 8:36 PM, Vijayasankar <vijay.botan...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >> No HS ji, I am sure He won't neglect FoC's treatment. The editors of FoC
> >> also had the same opinion like ours, in both the cases Murraya and
> >> Flacourtia. We know that they are (the spp.) different. That's why when
> >> several Indian Floras treated them as synonyms, we could not agree. But
> >> someone does come with solutions, and now we are comfortable. Its matter of
> >> time. Thanks to the dynamic nature of plant systematics. Nothing is final!
>
> >> Regards
>
> >> Vijayasankar Raman
> >> National Center for Natural Products Research
> >> University of Mississippi
>

> >> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 9:53 AM, H S <hemsan...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>> Thanks Vijay ji for sharing this,,
>
> >>> but even i know that Sirji will not agree with this..
>
> >>> thanks,
>

> >>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 8:13 PM, Vijayasankar <vijay.botan...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >>>> Dear all,
>
> >>>> We all know that Flora of China (FoC) is one of the most trusted
> >>>> efloras, and most of the time a ready reference for identifying our Indian
> >>>> plants, too.

> >>>> It treats *Murraya paniculata* and *M. exotica* as different species.

> >>>> We knew this based on our field experience.
> >>>> The differences, as per FoC are: [
> >>>>http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=121339]
>

> >>>> Leaflet blades mostly suborbicular to ovate to elliptic, 1.5-6 cm wide*
> >>>> M. paniculata*

> >>>> Leaflet blades elliptic-obovate or obovate, 0.5-3 cm

> >>>> wide                      *M. exotica*

>
> >>>> These may appear to be variable characters if we refer only herbarium
> >>>> specimens.
> >>>> Some taxa for e.g. Flacourtia indica & F. romantchii, we know they are
> >>>> different based on their differences in habit, ecology etc., but its hard to
> >>>> find strong characters to distinguish them convincingly.
>
> >>>> Regards
>
> >>>> Vijayasankar Raman
> >>>> National Center for Natural Products Research
> >>>> University of Mississippi
>

> >>>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 8:49 AM, Gurcharan Singh <singh...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >>>>> Nothing can help one who does not want to see reason. Who can stop me
> >>>>> if I insist on believing that whole taxonomic World is wrong. Let those who
> >>>>> want to live in their World be so.
>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Dr. Gurcharan Singh
> >>>>> Retired  Associate Professor
> >>>>> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
> >>>>> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
> >>>>> Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089
> >>>>>http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/
>

> >>>>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 7:06 PM, H S <hemsan...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>>> Dear all,
> >>>>>> If plant is different surely they will have some differences i
> >>>>>> guess...
>
> >>>>>> I think every one will agree that M. paniculata present in the wild as
> >>>>>> well as in cultivation whereas M. exotica or M. paniculata var. exotica or
> >>>>>> cv of M. paniculata whatever we say its commonly cultivated in the garden
> >>>>>> for the glossy laeves and beautiful flowers.. if its cv than who had made
> >>>>>> it???? no doubt they are different and in Maharashtra both can seen very
> >>>>>> commonly,,  those who eager to see the species can visit Amboli,
> >>>>>> Mahabaleshwar, Mathera, Pune, Bhimashankar etc places to see M. paniculata
> >>>>>> and M. exotica in Nashik garden, Mumbai (Rani baug, Bombay trust garden,
> >>>>>> Gorai, Sanjay Gandhi National Park in Plantation near pond,, etc etc..),
> >>>>>> Kolhapur, Pune garden.. etc etc.
>
> >>>>>> regards,
>

> >>>>>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 5:25 PM, Gurcharan Singh <singh...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >>>>>>> Mahadeswara ji
> >>>>>>> For that that matter all species which have been described on the
> >>>>>>> basis of different holotypes would be different species, because they will
> >>>>>>> have some differences. If we have that concept there would be no heterotypic
> >>>>>>> synonyms and we will have more than 5 lac species of angiosperms on this
> >>>>>>> Earth, whereas most authors agree on this number being below 3 lacs. As I
> >>>>>>> have written earlier also Hortus Third (considered Bible for cultivated
> >>>>>>> plants), The Plant List, now even GRIN, and numerous other publications
> >>>>>>> treat them as synonyms, and we would be doing little service to ignore them.
>
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> Dr. Gurcharan Singh
> >>>>>>> Retired  Associate Professor
> >>>>>>> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
> >>>>>>> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
> >>>>>>> Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089
> >>>>>>>http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/
>

[Gurcharan Singh]

Yes Giby ji The Plant List and GRIN did differ, but please read note under M. exotica updated in September 2011

" perhaps best treated as M. paniculata ‘Exotica’"

http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/npgs/html/taxon.pl?24702

Besides Wikipedia, please also see the following link

http://www.hear.org/pier/species/murraya_paniculata.htm

I would be interested to know any recent treatment which considers them separate.

-- 
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ 

[Giby Kuriakose]

Thank you sir ji the link provided by you is very informative. This discussion turn to be interesting as the naming and treatment of the plants are so complicated. 

Earlier people working from different parts of the world were not well connected by any means as that of today. 

Further, most of the publications were made regionally that was not reaching to the people in the other parts of the world. These publications has started reaching people now with the advancement of communication and digitization.   

The communication gap would be the reason why there are so many synonyms for several species. 

Now we have a good platform to discuss and dig out the right thing. But we need to understand the characters of a plant/animal that discriminate taxonomically with due respect to the concept of species. 

 

  

Regards,

Giby

[Gurcharan Singh]

Yes Giby ji

The discussion is getting interesting. For decades we had been following original Index Kewensis. This time Kew has come into collaboration with Missouri Botanical Garden making use of huge databases like Tropicos, IPNI and hundreds of other collaborators, and they are trying to build a list of accepted names and synonyms. Agreed there are several mistakes, several unresolved names but these would be resolved over next few years. We have to point out these mistakes where they exist, but simply rejecting these would only harm us not the Plant List, which surely going to be the undisputed reference source. Perhaps no one has been as busy as me in sending them the possible errors in their list, I send them at least one mail in one week to highlight ambiguities. But finally once established the List would be followed by almost the whole World. I always base my decisions on recent evidence, and keep my opinions open. That is the right scientific approach.

-- 
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ 

[Ushadi micromini]

Dear Gurcharanji:

You wrote: I quote:

"Perhaps no one has been as busy as me in sending them the
possible errors in their list, I send them at least one mail in one
week to

highlight ambiguities"... end quote...

I commend you and laud you for doing this...

It may help us young hotshots to know that... perhaps we have not
recognized... or even know your contribution in this aspect towards
the cause of Indian flora... we know you as a great teacher for us in
efloaindia/indiatreepix... but may not be aware of your international
inputs...

MY HUMBLE suggestion...

could you also forward a copy to eflora... as a new thread ...
whenever you write to these authorites ..pointing out their errata...
just cut and paste what you wrote/sent...
so that we may all know several thins:
1) the efforts you put in...energy, botanical knowledge, your
reputation and other things in line...

2) if need be we can study up the matter and somehow help support your
argument...
and we will have a list of erratum right here... so that instead of
rejecting some of these authorities outright we the young ones will
know...and instead of fighting, something constructive will be done...

3) its very reassuring and comforting to know that an expert like you
who is also very helpful is always present at indiatreepix to help out
with proper id , be it for scientific minded extensive photo-report or
just a small point and shoot quick nonetoo clear picture of just the
flower...



SECONDLY : I am sorry to say to a guru ... but Guruji, its not
always evident in this forum when these arguments heat up that you
keep an open mind... as you say I quote from your write up .... "
and keep my opinions open" end quote...may be its just a question of
style but .... we all are guilty of talking in shorthand , not just
yourself... and may not be very clear that we were keeping an open
mind...


SO WE STILL HAVE THIS QUESTION OPEN>>> SHOULD WE STUDY this
plant????...

Usha di
======

On Oct 18, 12:59 pm, Gurcharan Singh <singh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yes Giby ji

> The discussion is getting interesting. For decades we had been following
> original Index Kewensis. This time Kew has come into collaboration with
> Missouri Botanical Garden making use of huge databases like Tropicos, IPNI
> and hundreds of other collaborators, and they are trying to build a list of
> accepted names and synonyms. Agreed there are several mistakes, several
> unresolved names but these would be resolved over next few years. We have to
> point out these mistakes where they exist, but simply rejecting these would
> only harm us not the Plant List, which surely going to be the undisputed
> reference source. Perhaps no one has been as busy as me in sending them the
> possible errors in their list, I send them at least one mail in one week to
> highlight ambiguities. But finally once established the List would be
> followed by almost the whole World. I always base my decisions on recent
> evidence, and keep my opinions open. That is the right scientific approach.
>
> --
> Dr. Gurcharan Singh
> Retired  Associate Professor
> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.

> Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/

>
> On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 12:50 PM, Giby Kuriakose

> <giby.kuriak...@gmail.com>wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Thank you sir ji the link provided by you is very informative. This
> > discussion turn to be interesting as the naming and treatment of the plants
> > are so complicated.
> > Earlier people working from different parts of the world were not well
> > connected by any means as that of today.
> > Further, most of the publications were made regionally that was not
> > reaching to the people in the other parts of the world. These publications
> > has started reaching people now with the advancement of communication
> > and digitization.
> > The communication gap would be the reason why there are so many synonyms
> > for several species.
> > Now we have a good platform to discuss and dig out the right thing. But we
> > need to understand the characters of a plant/animal that
> > discriminate taxonomically with due respect to the concept of species.
>
> > Regards,
> > Giby
>

> > On 18 October 2011 12:33, Gurcharan Singh <singh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Yes Giby ji The Plant List and GRIN did differ, but please read note under
> >> M. exotica updated in September 2011
>

> >> " perhaps best treated as *M. paniculata* ‘Exotica’"

> ...
>
> read more »

[Giby Kuriakose]

Dear Ushadi ji,

This is not just studying this plant alone but there are several such ambiguities in the classification (especially plant classification) that had happened because of several reasons. It is time to rectify such ambiguities.  

I do think that we need lots of discussions like this especially when people are of different opinion. Because opinions of taxonomists who work in different arena has their own share to it. 

I am pretty sure that people who work on revision of plants such as "the plant list" and GRIN will go for several discussions to get it concluded. Single person may not be able do this kind of work. Whenever there are more people working on the same aspect, there would be different opinions. We would be conclude the same only with help of fruitful discussions and debates .   

Regards,

Giby

[ushadi Micromini]

Giby: yes...
but there does not seem to be even any papers just describiing the differences...
or even we do not have several submissions... of the variants... so how would any one of us or Dr. Gurcharanji...make a case for revision... when INDIAN scientists themselves do not have data...or pictures etc...


I am not talking of just talking...
I am  talking of action..
thats what was done in the 40s and 50s in USA to classify the cancers finally in the modern format we know... and classification goes on even now... it never stops..
but
to clear up the ambiguities one has to start with one plant.... someplace...
and we have 1900 members, thats a small army of well intentioned botany minded folks....

even if 1/3rd of them go out and keep an eye on their favorite Murraya for a year... imagine the data we will have?

thinking is very imp... here...

ushadi
------------

[Giby Kuriakose]

I request all members to please come up with the pictures of both the plants (M. exotica and M. paniculata) depicting the characters. We will decide it later at the end of the discussion whether to call them same or different species. If you don't get both, please get whatever is there in your area and we shall differentiate which is which.

I would appreciate if you can take some effort to get some clear close up pictures of leaves (to see the shape and preferably with a scale) flowers (both front and side view) and fruits (if available). Please dont forget to collect notes for valid discussion.

Let us see what happens. I am not accessible to any of these plants at present and when ever I get I will put my share in to it. 

I request Gurcharan sir to kindly lead the discussion based on the pictures. 

We will clear the doubt with evidences. Further we can submit a report to the plant list or GRIN and why not we can go for a publication on behalf of "efloraofindia" 

At the same time, if  someone can catch hold of the picture/scan copies of type specimens it would be better. 

It is not good to stop a discussion without result. 

[ushadi Micromini]

So... Giby... Finalyy you listened to this old lady...
good for you...

may be you can collate the data... pictures etc...
and may be this can be your research project at ASHOKA  .... if successful.. who knows... good things may yewt come your way...
lets do it...
Usha di

=====
PS   GIBY:  I HAVE STARTED A NEW THREAD WITH MY IDEA ... you may want to copy paste what you wrote here in that thread so that that thread becomes your data collecting place... and stays positive...


=========

[Giby Kuriakose]

Please find attached herewith the pictures that I took from a garden at Calicut 2 days back. I think this can be treated as M. exotica, since it has been collected from garden. 

Please share if someone has any pictures related to this topic and if someone has pictures of Murraya from the wild, please share the same here in this thread.

  

Date/Time- 23-10-11

Location- Place, Altitude, GPS- Parambath, Calicut, Kerala          

 

Habitat- Garden/ Urban/ Wild/ Type-  Garden

Plant Habit- Tree/ Shrub/ Climber/ Herb- Large shrub/small tree

Height/Length- 3-4m height

Leaves Type/ Shape/ Size- Compound leaves, leaflets are ovate 

Flowers Size/ Colour/ Calyx/ Bracts - White flowers that are about 2 cm produced on terminal cymes (mostly corymbose cymes)   

Fruits Type/ Shape/ Size Seeds- Oval shaped drupe that is about 1cm long. Dark green when young and orange to red when ripened  

Thanks and Regards

Giby

On 18 October 2011 17:44, ushadi Micromini <micromi...@gmail.com> wrote:

[ushadi Micromini]

Dear Giby...

Since exotica is cultivated...  is there any publication or clearing house of information as to when it was first introduced to the nursery trade or sent from one country to the next...
there should be a trail..shouldn't there be one?

Dont know the answer to it myself...
Horticultural information may not be published as vigorously as Botany...

Usha di
======