mailing list guidelines and bottom posting rule

[satyaakam goswami]

Hi,
I want to bring to the notice of all the people who are posting to
this group , since this group consists of people from varied
backgrounds and culture in order to coexist in a meaningful way there
were certain rules devised for this group too , which after
discussion http://goo.gl/jjngr in past and decided it would be posted
as a footer with each mail "Mailing list guidelines and other related
articles: http://lug-iitd.org/Footer" .

last year after discussions http://goo.gl/vF7rd and
http://goo.gl/KrmhM the bottom posting rule was waivered in order to
accommodate new users from asking questions ,it was also decided to
waiver it for six months , since then the posts have come in all
forms , but loose the context in a long discussion , we want to bring
back the bottom posting rule back since

1) preserves the context of the discussions in archives.
2) we know who is talking to whom unlike the top post.

the rule will be enforced from 1 Aug , if anyone has any queries they
can clarify if now in this thread.


-Satya
fossevents.in

[kenneth gonsalves]

On Fri, 2012-07-20 at 12:07 +0530, satyaakam goswami wrote:
> we want to bring
> back the bottom posting rule back since

we want neither top posting nor bottom posting - both are bad. We need
properly trimmed *interleaved* posting.
--
regards
Kenneth Gonsalves

[Gaurav Paliwal]

Hi,

we want neither top posting nor bottom posting - both are bad. We need
properly trimmed *interleaved* posting.

But sometimes its not easy to trim messages while replying especially when you are using phone.

--
With Regards,
Gaurav Paliwal

http://gauravpaliwal.com

[satyaakam goswami]

>> we want neither top posting nor bottom posting - both are bad. We need
>> properly trimmed *interleaved* posting.
>
> But sometimes its not easy to trim messages while replying especially when
> you are using phone.

yes phone users are a group who have raised this handicap again and
again , does anyone know of mail clients on mobile which can do
trimming and interleaving properly ?

-Satya
fossevents.in

[kenneth gonsalves]

On Fri, 2012-07-20 at 12:24 +0530, Gaurav Paliwal wrote:
> we want neither top posting nor bottom posting - both are bad.
> We need
> properly trimmed *interleaved* posting.
>
> But sometimes its not easy to trim messages while replying especially
> when you are using phone.

anything worth doing is worth doing well - and doing something well is
sometimes not easy. LUGs are supposed to be training grounds for newbies
to interact with the world. Every time I see the sloppy way our
youngsters post on international mailing lists I cringe.
--
regards
Kenneth Gonsalves

[Phani Bhushan Tholeti]

>> we want neither top posting nor bottom posting - both are bad.
>> We need
>> properly trimmed *interleaved* posting.

Very true.

>> But sometimes its not easy to trim messages while replying especially
>> when you are using phone.

Even more truer.

> anything worth doing is worth doing well - and doing something well is
> sometimes not easy. LUGs are supposed to be training grounds for newbies
> to interact with the world. Every time I see the sloppy way our
> youngsters post on international mailing lists I cringe.

Its true that *nix has a a rich culture... but a culture only by
adapting not by forcing adherence
I think we need to evolve a new method.. I am not sure how/why.. but
"cringing" may not help.
For starters, maybe we can cut some slack o phone users? Those using
PCs/laptops must still follow
whatever is decided. After all if something is inconvenient, it
shouldn't survive.

Given all that, I'd prefer he interleaved posting :) .

--
Lots o' Luv,
Phani Bhushan

Let not your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right -
Isaac Asimov (Salvor Hardin in Foundation and Empire)

Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html

[Debasish Ray Chawdhuri]

Guys you are using Google services, and most people seem to have gmail account with which they interact. Google thinks top posting is the way to go. The tools are also trimmed accordingly (although the latest clients do allow you to trim, that's not the default behavior. The only reason people top post is that that is the default behavior of most email clients (including Thunderbird). You seem to go against the flow and think somehow your way is the best way.

Be better with content and lenient with people. I cannot see how the mailing list was having any problems by going this way this time. 

--

Mailing list guidelines and other related articles: http://lug-iitd.org/Footer

--
Debasish Ray Chawdhuri
http://www.geekyarticles.com/
[A collection of advanced articles on java]

[Phani Bhushan Tholeti]

> Guys you are using Google services, and most people seem to have gmail
> account with which they interact. Google thinks top posting is the way to
> go. The tools are also trimmed accordingly (although the latest clients do
> allow you to trim, that's not the default behavior.

Precisely.

> The only reason people top post is that that is the default behavior of most email clients
> (including Thunderbird). You seem to go against the flow and think somehow
> your way is the best way.

Wish these were my words... I somehow feel that most Unix users tend
to think in the time frame of the
70s... with vi, ed and command line. The command line is powerful, but
using a GUI isn't a sin if it helps you.
Over time, people gravitate towards the command line. Happened with me
and most that I know, among those who switched to Linux.
But, there's really no point trying to push it. We might be just
alienating people. And the argument that "linux" doesn't need such
users is stupid. Ubuntu.

[kenneth gonsalves]

On Fri, 2012-07-20 at 15:41 +0530, Debasish Ray Chawdhuri wrote:
> I cannot see how the mailing list was having any problems by going
> this way this time.

because you are on gmail.
>
--
regards
Kenneth Gonsalves

[satyaakam goswami]

On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 3:41 PM, Debasish Ray Chawdhuri
<debasish.r...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Guys you are using Google services, and most people seem to have gmail
> account with which they interact. Google thinks top posting is the way to
> go. The tools are also trimmed accordingly (although the latest clients do
> allow you to trim, that's not the default behavior. The only reason people
> top post is that that is the default behavior of most email clients
> (including Thunderbird). You seem to go against the flow and think somehow
> your way is the best way.

it is not about some company or some product it about convenience in
having a clear conversation without loosing the context.

> Be better with content and lenient with people. I cannot see how the mailing
> list was having any problems by going this way this time.

exactly these kind of posts are creating the communications issues i
for one do not understand why you need to the quote the whole text
when i do not understand what is the point you are trying to raise ,
at least i find Phani's style of interleaving much acceptable . lets
say we revisit the conversation after few years in archives it does
not make sense and the users who is referring to the conversation is
lost.

-Satya
fossevents.in

[satyaakam goswami]

On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 3:50 PM, Phani Bhushan Tholeti <tpb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Guys you are using Google services, and most people seem to have gmail
>> account with which they interact. Google thinks top posting is the way to

>> The only reason people top post is that that is the default behavior of most email clients
>> (including Thunderbird). You seem to go against the flow and think somehow
>> your way is the best way.
>
> Wish these were my words... I somehow feel that most Unix users tend
> to think in the time frame of the
> 70s... with vi, ed and command line. The command line is powerful, but
> using a GUI isn't a sin if it helps you.
> Over time, people gravitate towards the command line. Happened with me
> and most that I know, among those who switched to Linux.
> But, there's really no point trying to push it. We might be just
> alienating people. And the argument that "linux" doesn't need such
> users is stupid. Ubuntu.

this is not the point to prove who is who it is about getting educated
, and maintaining the sanity of conversations , i think we are getting
towards a consensus on trimming and interleaving , mobile users can
be let loose for now with top posts.

-Satya
fossevents.in

[kenneth gonsalves]

On Fri, 2012-07-20 at 15:50 +0530, Phani Bhushan Tholeti wrote:
> > Guys you are using Google services, and most people seem to have
> gmail
> > account with which they interact. Google thinks top posting is the
> way to
> > go. The tools are also trimmed accordingly (although the latest
> clients do
> > allow you to trim, that's not the default behavior.
>
> Precisely.

not so, I first started using linux with pine mail client in 1995. Since
then, every mail client I have used has the option of positioning the
cursor at the bottom of the quoted matter, and if I recall correctly
kmail among others has this as the default.

>
> > The only reason people top post is that that is the default behavior
> of most email clients
> > (including Thunderbird). You seem to go against the flow and think
> somehow
> > your way is the best way.

there are 3 reasons why people top post:
1. They have not been trained to post properly - most common case.
2. They are lazy - next most common case.
3. They deliberately top post to try and prove that their opinion is
superior to the collective wisdom of 30-40 years of open source mailing
list practices.

>
> Wish these were my words... I somehow feel that most Unix users tend
> to think in the time frame of the
> 70s... with vi, ed and command line. The command line is powerful, but
> using a GUI isn't a sin if it helps you.

if this was really true, how come all linux distros come with fancier
and fancier GUIs? Or are all these things written by microsoft to
corrupt linux users? To see the rest of my comments please scroll down.

all this unnecessary untrimmed stuff above just contributes to global
warming, not to the discussion.
--
regards
Kenneth Gonsalves

[Debasish Ray Chawdhuri]

On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 4:12 PM, kenneth gonsalves <law...@thenilgiris.com> wrote:

On Fri, 2012-07-20 at 15:50 +0530, Phani Bhushan Tholeti wrote:
> > Guys you are using Google services, and most people seem to have
> gmail
> > account with which they interact. Google thinks top posting is the
> way to
> > go. The tools are also trimmed accordingly (although the latest
> clients do
> > allow you to trim, that's not the default behavior.
>
> Precisely.

not so, I first started using linux with pine mail client in 1995. Since
then, every mail client I have used has the option of positioning the
cursor at the bottom of the quoted matter, and if I recall correctly
kmail among others has this as the default.

There is an option, no one gives a shit. People use what they get by default.

>
> > The only reason people top post is that that is the default behavior
> of most email clients
> > (including Thunderbird). You seem to go against the flow and think
> somehow
> > your way is the best way.

there are 3 reasons why people top post:
1. They have not been trained to post properly - most common case.
2. They are lazy - next most common case.
3. They deliberately top post to try and prove that their opinion is
superior to the collective wisdom of 30-40 years of open source mailing
list practices.

Yes people are lazy, and its not a crime to be so. No one needs anyone to preach them out of lazyness.

>
> Wish these were my words... I somehow feel that most Unix users tend
> to think in the time frame of the
> 70s... with vi, ed and command line. The command line is powerful, but
> using a GUI isn't a sin if it helps you.

if this was really true, how come all linux distros come with fancier
and fancier GUIs? Or are all these things written by microsoft to
corrupt linux users? To see the rest of my comments please scroll down.

With all your fancier GUI, it still does not get the market. There has to be a reason for that, think about it. You think people should learn to use it, people think you should learn to respect their views and way of life, and your software should be able to help them solve their problems, not create new ones.
 
Similarly, your forum should help them solve their problems. You are instead growing a culture to start a discussion on your stupid posting rules whenever someone looks for help.

A software should not need to be customized to meet your requirements, it should come with all the settings.

[kenneth gonsalves]

On Fri, 2012-07-20 at 16:41 +0530, Debasish Ray Chawdhuri wrote:
> There is an option, no one gives a shit.

in India we refrain from using words like this.

> People use what they get by default.

that is the behaviour that LUGs are set up to change.

[...]

> Yes people are lazy, and its not a crime to be so. No one needs anyone
> to preach them out of lazyness.

this is also behaviour that LUGs are set up to change - guess how many
gold medals we are going to win in the Olympics? At the time of the last
Asian games, for the women's golf event, the South Koreans chose 3000
girls 3 years ahead and trained them and finally settled on the final
team of 6. In India the team trials where held 3 months before the games
out of a field of about 10 - 6 where chosen. Check the results here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golf_at_the_2010_Asian_Games yes, it is
the duty of every LUG to encourage a professional style posting, which
hopefully will lead to a professional style of work.

[...]

> With all your fancier GUI, it still does not get the market. There has
> to be a reason for that, think about it. You think people should learn
> to use it, people think you should learn to respect their views and
> way of life, and your software should be able to help them solve their
> problems, not create new ones.

what OS do you use?

>
> Similarly, your forum should help them solve their problems. You are
> instead growing a culture to start a discussion on your stupid posting
> rules whenever someone looks for help.

kindly refrain from using the word 'stupid' - this is unprofessional

>
>
> A software should not need to be customized to meet your requirements,
> it should come with all the settings.

huh? Each person's needs are different - software that cannot be
customised according to individual needs is useless in my opinion.

--
regards
Kenneth Gonsalves

[Mihir Mehta]

I suggest that some of the posters in this discussion take a deep breath before posting and work towards consensus formation instead of flaming.

[Phani Bhushan Tholeti]

> all this unnecessary untrimmed stuff above just contributes to global
> warming, not to the discussion.

Right... my mistake... when you reply to a mail just before rushing
off on some other work, it happens.
See, all the more reason why one should be lenient.

>> There is an option, no one gives a shit.
> in India we refrain from using words like this.

Not that I like the way it was put, but, which India do you live in?
Welcome to the new century.

>> People use what they get by default.
> that is the behaviour that LUGs are set up to change.

Isn't getting people to use Linux the more and better target? I rarely
bother to change any of the settings, esp. in Ubuntu. The people
who made it got it right, on most counts. And, no its not just my
opinion. I've seen it used on many other systems, "out-of-the-box".

>> Yes people are lazy, and its not a crime to be so. No one needs anyone
>> to preach them out of lazyness.
> this is also behaviour that LUGs are set up to change

Tell that to Larry Wall.

> gold medals we are going to win in the Olympics? At the time of the last

> ... [trimmed for size]
> Check the results here:
Irrelevant. Different fields. Different people. Different results/expectations.

> [...]

>> people think you should learn to respect their views and
>> way of life, and your software should be able to help them solve their
>> problems, not create new ones.
> what OS do you use?

How does that matter. Let's say he uses Windows. So, what?
Linux, then what?

> kindly refrain from using the word 'stupid' - this is unprofessional

Unprofessional? Try reading some posts by Linus Torvalds. Don't tell
me "he doesn't know s**t".

> huh? Each person's needs are different - software that cannot be
> customised according to individual needs is useless in my opinion.

One point we seem to agree on.

>> 70s... with vi, ed and command line. The command line is powerful, but
>> using a GUI isn't a sin if it helps you.
> if this was really true, how come all linux distros come with fancier
> and fancier GUIs? Or are all these things written by microsoft to
> corrupt linux users?

What's your point? I don't get it. Or maybe you didn't get mine? Linux
getting better(?) GUIs doesn't
mean *nix isn't dominated by command line. Only, its becoming more
"user-friendly". In a way, in a way bad.
That's what I meant.

Now that my point-by-point rants are done with, I agree with Sathyakaam:

> i think we are getting
> towards a consensus on trimming and interleaving , mobile users can
> be let loose for now with top posts.

Can we follow this for now?

[satyaakam goswami]

> Now that my point-by-point rants are done with, I agree with Sathyakaam:
>
>> i think we are getting
>> towards a consensus on trimming and interleaving , mobile users can
>> be let loose for now with top posts.
>
> Can we follow this for now?

Yes we can start following it now , you have done quite well following
the guidelines and putting your points across ..

have fun

-Satya
fossevents.in

[A. Mani]

All this also means:

0. we should discipline google as well.. gmail recognises 'mailing lists'.
1. posters using mobiles should avoid any quoting.
2. mail client for mobiles?
3. follow mailing list rules.



Best

A. Mani





--
A. Mani
CU, ASL, CLC, AMS, CMS
http://www.logicamani.in
http://www.logicamani.co.cc