Street Art in Cedar Rapids
Red Writer
to bring us a series of super structures, already being called Road Kill
birds by some critics, to be placed along some street near the airport.
I think they are to be around 40 feet high and cost some enormous price.
The news showed an artist's rendition of what they would look like. I
suspect that the Gazette will tell us all about it tomorrow.
They look goofy to me, quite as goofy as the big aluminum monstrosity
that cost around $200,000 that stands near the Apac building in downtown
Cedar Rapids.
Red
---------------------------------------
Sept. Iowa Public Eye
http://members.tripod.com/~Iowa_Public_Eye/Page-1.html
Charles Eicher
says...
>
>A TV news story today told that the Cedar Rapids "Arts" community wants
>to bring us a series of super structures, already being called Road Kill
>birds by some critics, to be placed along some street near the airport.
>I think they are to be around 40 feet high and cost some enormous price.
>The news showed an artist's rendition of what they would look like. I
>suspect that the Gazette will tell us all about it tomorrow.
While I am generally a supporter of the arts, I have to say this one is pretty
damn ugly. I saw a TV interview with the head of the local arts council. He said
the statues were supposed to represent the various stages of a bird taking off
in flight. What it really looks like, is a set of monstrously large pillars
flapping their wings, trying unsuccessfully to take flight. It suggests nothing
resembling flight to me. It looks like its going to be a hazard to low-flying
airplanes.
>They look goofy to me, quite as goofy as the big aluminum monstrosity
>that cost around $200,000 that stands near the Apac building in downtown
>Cedar Rapids.
Hey, it could be worse. Here in Iowa City, they just spent a huge sum of money
($150,000 IIRC) to replace the fountain on the pedestrian mall. Due to the
design of the previous statue, it was commonly known as "three peeing women" and
was a source of public ridicule (not to mention various water-borne diseases).
Now it has been replaced with a fountain I entitled "four peeing men." It
features four jets of water that rise to a height of about 6 feet, and lands in
a splash-plate about 6 feet away, in a lovely arc. Except the "artist"
miscalculated, the effect only works on a perfectly level surface, otherwise the
water all runs away. And even a cursory inspection of the site would have
revealed that the site is not level. And that was the whole point of the new
fountain, they wanted something that could be turned off and the water would all
drain away, leaving the plaza dry for concerts & events. And what they got is
exactly the opposite, a statue that splatters its water everywhere.
John Hascall
}redw...@webtv.net says...
}> Cedar Rapids "Arts" community wants to bring us a series of
}> super structures, already being called Road Kill birds by some critics
}While I am generally a supporter of the arts, I have to say this one
}is pretty damn ugly. ...
}Hey, it could be worse. Here in Iowa City, they just spent a huge sum of money
}($150,000 IIRC) to replace the fountain ... "three peeing women"
}with ... "four peeing men."
Hmmm, perhaps they could improve it with some shellaced cow dung
and pictures of pork butts...
John
--
John Hascall (__) Shut up, be happy.
Software Engineer, ,------(oo) The conveniences you demanded
Acropolis Project Manager, / |Moo U|\/ are now mandatory.
ISU Computation Center * ||----|| -- Jello Biafra
Floyd Reid
Rodan(sp) and other masters have done is more to my taste. When I look at
art,I want to see what it is with out having to imagion what it might be. I
think 500 thousand could be better spent.
The Sensations exhibit in N.Y. belongs in the landfill. IMO. Floyd
Red Writer wrote in message
<26456-37F...@newsd-111.bryant.webtv.net>...
A TV news story today told that the Cedar Rapids "Arts" community wants
to bring us a series of super structures, already being called Road Kill
birds by some critics, to be placed along some street near the airport.
I think they are to be around 40 feet high and cost some enormous price.
The news showed an artist's rendition of what they would look like. I
suspect that the Gazette will tell us all about it tomorrow.
They look goofy to me, quite as goofy as the big aluminum monstrosity
that cost around $200,000 that stands near the Apac building in downtown
Cedar Rapids.
Red
Maurice Wick
> Charles Eicher <cei...@inav.net> wrote:
> }While I am generally a supporter of the arts, I have to say this one
> }is pretty damn ugly. ...
> }Hey, it could be worse. Here in Iowa City, they just spent a huge sum of money
> }($150,000 IIRC) to replace the fountain ... "three peeing women"
> }with ... "four peeing men."
>
> Hmmm, perhaps they could improve it with some shellaced cow dung
> and pictures of pork butts...
I wanna see a montage of the Madonna with cutout magazine ohotos of
genitals stylishly adorned with elephant dung.
...thanks Ruddy, ya' got me interested.
Charles Eicher
>
>I am not a grate art fancier of this more modern stuff.
Apparently you're not a "fancier" of other intellectual activities, like
spelling.
>Things that
>Rodan(sp) and other masters have done is more to my taste.
I have terrible news for you: Rodin's sculptures were hated by his fellow
countrymen. His works were denounced them as offensive, pornographic, and too
abstract for public taste.
>When I look at
>art,I want to see what it is with out having to imagion what it might be.
Use it or lose it, I guess. You obviously have no imagination.
>I think 500 thousand could be better spent.
Nobody said it would cost $500,000, I think the figure was more like $150k, and
the bulk of that would be from donations. I don't think this is a great artwork,
but there are only a couple of great artists in Iowa, and none of them are at
Coe College (where the artist teaches).
> The Sensations exhibit in N.Y. belongs in the landfill. IMO. Floyd
Spoken like a true philistine. You may not like these artworks, but nobody's
forcing you to see them, or pay for them. The exhibit was almost exclusively
funded by private donations. 100 years from now, they will talk about these
artists like you talk about Rodin today.
Red Writer
in MA called them giant lobster claws a few minutes ago. I'll be back.
Here's a little quick page I made about it.
http://community-1.webtv.net/redwriter/StreetArtinCedar/
Charles Eicher
redw...@webtv.net says...
>
>no time to talk now but here is a picture of the gross project. A view
>in MA called them giant lobster claws a few minutes ago. I'll be back.
>Here's a little quick page I made about it.
>
>http://community-1.webtv.net/redwriter/StreetArtinCedar/
Be sure to check your facts. As I understand it, the grant is already approved,
but is only a minor part of the funding. This fund is set aside for these sorts
of sculptural projects, and if it doesn't go to this sculpture, it will go to
some similar project. Its not like you have any choice about how this money is
spent, you already voted for your representatives, who approved this fund.
So don't go whining about "my tax dollars" because it isn't true.
magus
Hascall) wrote:
> Charles Eicher <cei...@inav.net> wrote:
> }redw...@webtv.net says...
> }> Cedar Rapids "Arts" community wants to bring us a series of
> }> super structures, already being called Road Kill birds by some critics
>
> }While I am generally a supporter of the arts, I have to say this one
> }is pretty damn ugly. ...
> }Hey, it could be worse. Here in Iowa City, they just spent a huge sum
of money
> }($150,000 IIRC) to replace the fountain ... "three peeing women"
> }with ... "four peeing men."
>
> Hmmm, perhaps they could improve it with some shellaced cow dung
> and pictures of pork butts...
Then they could rename it "The Lincoln Bedroom"
--
"We're here to enforce the law for the landlords, businessmen, and [alumnus that donate more than $10,000] to [Iowa State University]...Students need to realize this before they bitch and waste our time." --paraphrased comment made by Ames Police Officer--
Red Writer
turned on for the first time. There was only a small breeze and the
streams of water were blown astray. It was a mess, with water going all
over. The walkway in front of the Holiday Inn was all wet and it seemed
a safety hazard. Maybe it has been adjusted so it is much better now
than what I witnessed.
I had not seen the fountain that was removed, but I did read in the
Gazette that it will be very costly to have it reinstalled in another
location.
I love fountains but the Iowa City new fountain is a very poor one imo
and it reflects upon the judgement of those who chose it.
---------------------------------------
Oct. Iowa Public Eye
http://members.tripod.com/~Iowa_Public_Eye/Page-1.html
Red Writer
for those monster street "art" structures, does any of that money have
to go to UNI?
It is sort of the same thing that goes on with professors writing books
on state tax paid time and then profiteering from books that are
published. Often student work is used to aid the research.
In the case of these proposed monster "art" structures, it is possible
that art students will be helping to produce them.
Charles Eicher
redw...@webtv.net says...
>
>Charles: I happened to be at the new fountain location when it was
>turned on for the first time. There was only a small breeze and the
>streams of water were blown astray. It was a mess, with water going all
>over. The walkway in front of the Holiday Inn was all wet and it seemed
>a safety hazard. Maybe it has been adjusted so it is much better now
>than what I witnessed.
>
>I had not seen the fountain that was removed, but I did read in the
>Gazette that it will be very costly to have it reinstalled in another
>location.
>
>I love fountains but the Iowa City new fountain is a very poor one imo
>and it reflects upon the judgement of those who chose it.
You have only scratched the surface of the problem. The whole fountain issue was
a scam. Long ago, I received a letter from the City of Iowa City, requesting
local artists to submit a detailed proposal for a new fountain. I received the
RFP 5 days before the deadline. This is typical behavior for the local arts
council. Nobody could complete a serious design in 5 days. But there is ONE
person who could have. I hesitate to name names, but she's well connected to our
local city government (by marriage) and this person seems to win ALL the local
arts commissions. This is a classic case of bid-rigging. Due to some local
protests by eligible artists, they reissued the RFP. But the fix was in, the RFP
was designed specifically to select an artist they already liked. And thats just
who they picked.
Charles Eicher
>for those monster street "art" structures, does any of that money have
>to go to UNI?
No. It goes direct to the artist. And he pays all the expenses out of HIS
pocket.
I think you misunderstand the money here. $500,000 is the entire budget for the
project (although I dispute the $500k figure, I thought I heard $150k). The
entire project must be completed with that money, including construction and
materials. If the artist completes the project for $450k, he gets to keep $50k
as his profit. However, I've seen plenty of sculptors who could not complete
their project within budget and had to complete their work at their own expense.
I assure you that nobody's making a huge profit on this.
>It is sort of the same thing that goes on with professors writing books
>on state tax paid time and then profiteering from books that are
>published. Often student work is used to aid the research.
I think you're comparing apples and oranges here. As an obliquely relevant fact,
teachers who require their own students to buy a textbook they wrote themselves,
are required by state law to refund their royalties directly to the student. I
know one professor who refunds the royalty (some paltry sum like $1.25) in cash,
direct to the students, right in the classroom.
>In the case of these proposed monster "art" structures, it is possible
>that art students will be helping to produce them.
And if they do, they'll be getting paid just like anyone else who works on the
structures. I guarantee that the bulk of the work will be done by regular
working stiffs.
Tricia Sandahl
Charles Eicher <cei...@inav.net> wrote:
>
>Hey, it could be worse. Here in Iowa City, they just spent a huge sum of money
>design of the previous statue, it was commonly known as "three peeing women" and
>was a source of public ridicule (not to mention various water-borne diseases).
>Now it has been replaced with a fountain I entitled "four peeing men." It
>features four jets of water that rise to a height of about 6 feet, and lands in
>a splash-plate about 6 feet away, in a lovely arc. Except the "artist"
>miscalculated, the effect only works on a perfectly level surface, otherwise the
>water all runs away. And even a cursory inspection of the site would have
>revealed that the site is not level. And that was the whole point of the new
>fountain, they wanted something that could be turned off and the water would all
>drain away, leaving the plaza dry for concerts & events. And what they got is
>exactly the opposite, a statue that splatters its water everywhere.
ROFLMAO
Sounds like this artist also designed the toilet in the bathroom at
the
University Village Laundromat.. not to mention the men's room in every
gas station bathroom I've seen (or smelled)/
ricia
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If the world were a logical place, men would ride sidesaddle.
---Rita Mae Brown---
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tricia Sandahl | I don't want to appeal to everyone.
tsan...@iastate.edu | Afterall, not everyone appeals to me.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
SarahB
You know, MR.EICHER, perhaps once and a while you could respond to
someone without being so rude? Is that possible? Probably not.
Everyone is entitled to an opinion and entitled to give that opinion
without always being berated by you in this newsgroup.
While you criticize someone else's spelling, perhaps you should re-check
your language. This sentence you posted is grammatically incorrect:
"His works were denounced them as offensive, pornographic, and too
abstract for public taste."
Does that mean you are not a "fancier" of other intellectual activities,
like grammar?
--
***************SarahB ****************
http://www.netins.net/showcase/sarahb/
http://www.netins.net/showcase/sarahb/Business/bus.html
Jon Green
>Be sure to check your facts. As I understand it, the grant is already approved,
>but is only a minor part of the funding. This fund is set aside for these sorts
>of sculptural projects, and if it doesn't go to this sculpture, it will go to
>some similar project. Its not like you have any choice about how this money is
>spent, you already voted for your representatives, who approved this fund.
>So don't go whining about "my tax dollars" because it isn't true.
Don't forget, she's a "poor person." She doesn't pay any taxes.
-Jon
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------
* Jon Green * "Life's a dance *
* jcg...@netINS.net * you learn as you go" *
* Finger for Geek Code/PGP * *
* #include "std_disclaimer.h" * http://users.quadrunner.com/jon *
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
magus
Hascall) wrote:
> magus <ma...@yebb.com> wrote:
> }I finally took a good look at the fountain next to the Youth and Shelter
> }Services and wonder who's lame-brain idea was it to have Icarus there.
>
> I guess you didn't look at it close enought to read the plaque, eh?
Hey, you know me. If I was seriously flaming you know I'd know which
newsgroup to put it in. ;) I was doing my Emily Lettella (sp?)
impersonation.
> }Isn't it sort of degrading to the kids that may need to find help there?
> }I mean, think about it...
> }Icarus was a kid who wouldn't listen to his father so died because of it.
> }Subconsciously, doesn't this give a strange subliminal message?
>
> Or, perhaps, an appropriate and timely message.
John Hascall
}I finally took a good look at the fountain next to the Youth and Shelter
}Services and wonder who's lame-brain idea was it to have Icarus there.
I guess you didn't look at it close enought to read the plaque, eh?
}Isn't it sort of degrading to the kids that may need to find help there?
}I mean, think about it...
}Icarus was a kid who wouldn't listen to his father so died because of it.
}Subconsciously, doesn't this give a strange subliminal message?
Or, perhaps, an appropriate and timely message.
John
magus
redw...@webtv.net (Red Writer) wrote:
> Charles: I happened to be at the new fountain location when it was
> turned on for the first time.
I finally took a good look at the fountain next to the Youth and Shelter
Services and wonder who's lame-brain idea was it to have Icarus there.
Isn't it sort of degrading to the kids that may need to find help there?
I mean, think about it...
Icarus was a kid who wouldn't listen to his father so died because of it.
Subconsciously, doesn't this give a strange subliminal message?
--
Maurice Wick
> You know, MR.EICHER, perhaps once and a while you could respond to
> someone without being so rude? Is that possible? Probably not.
>
> Everyone is entitled to an opinion and entitled to give that opinion
> without always being berated by you in this newsgroup.
Oh, sarah...piss off.
>
> While you criticize someone else's spelling, perhaps you should re-check
> your language. This sentence you posted is grammatically incorrect:
> "His works were denounced them as offensive, pornographic, and too
> abstract for public taste."
>
> Does that mean you are not a "fancier" of other intellectual activities,
> like grammar?
looked like a typo to me...rather than a grammatical errot
..feeling pretty entitled to my opinion.
SarahB
>
> ..feeling pretty entitled to my opinion.
Me too.
Mary Ann
> Maurice Wick wrote:
> >
> > ..feeling pretty entitled to my opinion.
>
> Me too.
same nice guy. :-)
Tricia Sandahl
magus <ma...@yebb.com> wrote:
>I finally took a good look at the fountain next to the Youth and Shelter
>Services and wonder who's lame-brain idea was it to have Icarus there.
The fountain was donated by the parents of the executive director of YSS,
George Belitsos (I"m sure I've mangled the spelling).
They chose Icarus because they felt he epitomiaed the dilemma faced by
teenages... trying to fly, but not flying too high. My best friend in
=high school, and my son's godfather, was saved by direct intervention by
George and I will always admire him for that. I agree that Icarus was a
proper choice... it's important to make sure kids have some bounderies.
Tricia
Mother of a soon-to-be 17 year old
>
>Isn't it sort of degrading to the kids that may need to find help there?
>
>I mean, think about it...
>
>Icarus was a kid who wouldn't listen to his father so died because of it.
>
>Subconsciously, doesn't this give a strange subliminal message?
>
--
Charles Eicher
says...
>
Hmm.. I missed this reply somehow..
>On Fri, 01 Oct 1999 07:08:06 -0500, SarahB <ric...@netins.net> wrote:
>> You know, MR.EICHER, perhaps once and a while you could respond to
>> someone without being so rude? Is that possible? Probably not.
I am perfectly capable of calm, rational discussion. However, it is useless to
arge rationally with people who come in with such rubbish like "art should just
be pretty, it shouldn't tax my imagination, if I'm offended then it belongs in a
landfill." And I'm getting really sick of it after all the hoopla over the
Brooklyn Museum of Art controversy. Its like a usenet flamewar come to life. For
once, the flamewars came from outside usenet, and they're bombing newsgroups
like rec.arts.fine with this crap. I'm sick of it.
>> Everyone is entitled to an opinion and entitled to give that opinion
>> without always being berated by you in this newsgroup.
And I am equally entitled to berate them, when they expose their ignorance, and
lash out at the thing I hold most dear. I've been following the careers of these
artists for years, I know all about them, as does nearly everyone in the art
world. Perhaps if you'd actually READ my messages, instead of just REACTING, you
might learn something.
>Oh, sarah...piss off.
>
>
>
>
>>
>> While you criticize someone else's spelling, perhaps you should re-check
>> your language. This sentence you posted is grammatically incorrect:
>> "His works were denounced them as offensive, pornographic, and too
>> abstract for public taste."
>>
>> Does that mean you are not a "fancier" of other intellectual activities,
>> like grammar?
>
>looked like a typo to me...rather than a grammatical errot
>
>--
>big...@netins.net
>
>..feeling pretty entitled to my opinion.
not a typo, an editing error. I originally wrote something like "Frenchmen
decried them" but I had to edit the sentence to work and missed the "them."
Really now, if you want to criticise me for something, you'll have to do a LOT
better than grammar/spelling flames. That's the lamest flame on usenet,
especially against me, since my grammar and spelling are pretty damn good, if I
do say so myself. ESPECIALLY compared to the "grate" spelling of the person I
replied to.
Red Writer
but his post does not appear for me on Webtv. Darn -- that makes me so
mad.
I don't know how to get here by computer yet but one of these days I
will take time to do that. I prefer to use Webtv, for several reasons,
but this usenet group does not work good for Webtv. We only see some of
the posts.
Charles Eicher
>
>Charles Eicher wrote:
>(snip)
>> not a typo, an editing error. I originally wrote something like "Frenchmen
>> decried them" but I had to edit the sentence to work and missed the "them."
>>Really now, if you want to criticise me for something, you'll have to do a LOT
>> better than grammar/spelling flames. That's the lamest flame on usenet,
>>especially against me, since my grammar and spelling are pretty damn good, if I
>> do say so myself. ESPECIALLY compared to the "grate" spelling of the person I
>> replied to.
>
>whatever type of art you wish. So does Mr.Reid. (Who by the way, is a
>friend of mine and a very nice older gentleman.)
>
>You however are no gentleman. Not everyone is quite as clever at
>responding in newsgroups as you are. Perhaps because we don't feel the
>need to try to out do everyone. We don't feel the need to 'act'
>superior.
Thus, your repeated attempts to put me down and insult me. Perhaps before
commenting on the mote in your neighbor's eye, you should inspect the beam in
your own. You know, take a dose of your own medicine.
SarahB
That's because I deleted the post. It does no good to try to reason
with Moe nor Mr.Eicher, so why bother.
SarahB
(snip)
> Thus, your repeated attempts to put me down and insult me. Perhaps before
> commenting on the mote in your neighbor's eye, you should inspect the beam in
> your own. You know, take a dose of your own medicine.
Is that a threat? If so, go for it. Means nothing to me actually. Moe
has already said just about all there is to say to me.
(BTW, the beam in my eye is just fine.)
SarahB
(snip)
> Thus, your repeated attempts to put me down and insult me.(snip)
Oh, and I don't need to put you down. You do that very nicely yourself.
Mary Ann
> Charles Eicher wrote:
> (snip)
> > Thus, your repeated attempts to put me down and insult me.(snip)
>
> Oh, and I don't need to put you down. You do that very nicely yourself.
very well said.
Maurice Wick
>
> That's because I deleted the post. It does no good to try to reason
> with Moe nor Mr.Eicher, so why bother.
Well, Sarah, if you actually tried to reason you might get the hang of it
someday...hope springs eternal.
Floyd made an ignorant comment. Charles, in his charming fashion, spit up
bile. Sarah butts in in shrill harpie fashion complains everyone has a
'right' to express an opinion. Maurice, feeling his oats, tells you to
piss off.
....seems perfectly 'rational' to me.
So, do you want to try again?
Do you want to hear my opinion on why "I don't know much about Art, but I
know what I like" is an ignorant comment?
...prolly not. I think you just like to bitch and then sulk.
Oh, again...just expressing an opinion.
Ted H.
Here's my first-cut take on it. On one hand you have tolerance
and on the other you have critical thinking. One of my flaws is
a real aversion to entering in to any sort of conflict. This is,
at least in part, due to my small town mid-America upbringing.
A positive aspect of this characteristic is that it facilitates
tolerance of others.
Another result of small town mid-America upbringing is often a
rather homogeneous, narrow view of the world. This type of myopia
makes it difficult to truly engage in critical thinking. For
example, my primary and secondary education exposed my to nothing
with respect to Eastern thought. Post-secondary covered little
of this, but that was at least partly a result of my choices.
With limited knowledge of other philosphies, my cabability for
critical thinking is limited.
Those who are widely learned may lose patience with parochial
thinking after multiple attempts at discussion. Even if patience
is maintained, there is a basic tension when widely diverging
views are brought to the same table. It's also easy to be
tolerant of others when their viewpoints coincide with your own.
I'm open for discussion.
Ted
--
Theodore Heise <the...@netins.net> West Lafayette, IN, USA
> ...but to each his own Moe.
Where do I get my own Moe?
SarahB
>
> Here's my first-cut take on it. On one hand you have tolerance
> and on the other you have critical thinking.
Very well put. Critical thinking is great. The world would be a bore
with out it.
But tolerance is also good. Aren't wars started, to some extent,
because certain people become intolerant of others?
Ponder this.... If Mr.Reid had totally 'agreed' with everything
Mr.Eicher said and still had mispelled words, would there have been a
verbal attack on him then?
Having a difference of opinion is one thing. Attacking someone with
unnecessary verbal abuse because of that difference of opinion is
another. (Yes, I am guilty as charged in having returned the verbal
attack to Mr. Eicher and Moe.)
(snip)
> example, my primary and secondary education exposed my to nothing
-----------------------------------------------------^^^^----------
(snip)
> > ...but to each his own Moe.
> Where do I get my own Moe?
Ok Ted, so I left out a comma. God forbid I screwed up!! lol
However, you can probably find a Moe at your local Wal-Mart. They sell
everything done't they? Besides, you can always take it back if it
isn't the right one and you don't even need a receipt.
Now tell me, you "exposed" your what? ;-))
SarahB
> everything done't they? Besides, you can always take it back if it
Geesh, another mistake. I should be shot. You want to shoot first Moe?
lol
Randy J Morfitt
Or to put it another way, small towns breed small minds.
Ted H. wrote:
>
> Here's my first-cut take on it. On one hand you have tolerance
> a real aversion to entering in to any sort of conflict. This is,
> at least in part, due to my small town mid-America upbringing.
> A positive aspect of this characteristic is that it facilitates
> tolerance of others.
>
> Another result of small town mid-America upbringing is often a
> rather homogeneous, narrow view of the world. This type of myopia
> makes it difficult to truly engage in critical thinking. For
> of this, but that was at least partly a result of my choices.
> With limited knowledge of other philosphies, my cabability for
> critical thinking is limited.
>
> Those who are widely learned may lose patience with parochial
> thinking after multiple attempts at discussion. Even if patience
> is maintained, there is a basic tension when widely diverging
> views are brought to the same table. It's also easy to be
> tolerant of others when their viewpoints coincide with your own.
>
> I'm open for discussion.
>
> Ted
>
> --
> Theodore Heise <the...@netins.net> West Lafayette, IN, USA
>
> Where do I get my own Moe?
>
> Here's my first-cut take on it. On one hand you have tolerance
> a real aversion to entering in to any sort of conflict. This is,
> at least in part, due to my small town mid-America upbringing.
> A positive aspect of this characteristic is that it facilitates
> tolerance of others.
>
> Another result of small town mid-America upbringing is often a
> rather homogeneous, narrow view of the world. This type of myopia
> makes it difficult to truly engage in critical thinking. For
> of this, but that was at least partly a result of my choices.
> With limited knowledge of other philosphies, my cabability for
> critical thinking is limited.
>
> Those who are widely learned may lose patience with parochial
> thinking after multiple attempts at discussion. Even if patience
> is maintained, there is a basic tension when widely diverging
> views are brought to the same table. It's also easy to be
> tolerant of others when their viewpoints coincide with your own.
>
> I'm open for discussion.
>
> Ted
>
> --
> Theodore Heise <the...@netins.net> West Lafayette, IN, USA
>
> Where do I get my own Moe?
--
THE Randy J Morfitt
be...@iastate.edu
Ted H.
>
> Very well put. Critical thinking is great. The world would be a bore
> with out it.
> But tolerance is also good. Aren't wars started, to some extent,
> because certain people become intolerant of others?
Definitely. But at some point critical thinking and tolerance
become mutually exclusive.
> Ponder this.... If Mr.Reid had totally 'agreed' with everything
> Mr.Eicher said and still had mispelled words, would there have been a
> verbal attack on him then?
Somehow I don't think so. That may be naive of me though.
> Having a difference of opinion is one thing. Attacking someone with
> unnecessary verbal abuse because of that difference of opinion is
> another.
Well, I don't see the original exchange on the server anymore
so I can't review it, but it's certainly true that what one
person views as verbal abuse another may view as passionate
discourse. I'm not saying the comments were gracious, but I'm
also not convinced they qualified as verbal abuse. If one wants
to enter in to Usenet discussion, one should be prepared for
divergent styles of expression as well as viewpoints.
> Now tell me, you "exposed" your what? ;-))
DOH! You peeked!
Thanks for the thoughtful reply.
Ted H.
> YO!
> Or to put it another way, small towns breed small minds.
I don't care for that expression and it's not exactly what I meant,
although it certainly looks that way. It *is* hard (or used to be)
to be exposed to other world views in small towns. Certainly not
impossible, though. I've also seen *lots* of urban folk that do
their utmost to ignore the diversity about them.
Mike
hospital, where the waiting room is full of african-americans and Asians.
Going to pick up a friend who lives with a group of Mexicans. In the past I
had been bitterly opposed to more immigration (why can't those idiots make
their own country over instead of cluttering up ours), but I keep having my
nose rubbed into diversity every day. The group of Mexicans, BTW, are
polite, and their house is immaculate when I go over there - a decent bunch
of people, better than many "whites" I know. We all live in a different
world, Ozzie and Harriet are long gone. With the Internet, even small towns
will have to get a clue and roll with the times.
I used to consider myself a pretty liberal person, tolerant of much
diversity, but daily I'm reminded of how far I still have to go - Even as a
gay male in 1999, still have to grow inside regarding diversity. Sorry to
ramble.
sign me Mike ( diversity is fine as long as it's my brand of diversity:-))
Happy coming out day 1999
Ted H. <the...@netins.net> wrote in message
news:slrn802be6...@worf.netins.net...
magus
> In the past I
> had been bitterly opposed to more immigration (why can't those idiots make
> their own country over instead of cluttering up ours)....
Well, let's see...
You have American businesses which go to their country (Mexico for
instance) under the flag of NAFTA, and the minute the try to unionize so
they can make their country better the businesses (Nike for instance) try
buying off the officals to stop it. And when that doesn't work and the
union is formed the business pulls out of the area to begin elsewhere. And
in the meantime, these same government officials say these now unemployed
people are 'undesirable social elements'.
So you see, they are in fact making over their own country...
...the problem is our country is illegally trying to prevent them from doing so.
For those who are lost...the NAFTA agreement specifically states the
countries must allow unions to be formed and the U.S. businesses must
abide by them. If they don't they aren't allowed to benefit from the NAFTA
agreement. Unfortunately, Republican legislators have refused to allow any
company from being dropped from the NAFTA agreement...all the while
getting illegal financial incentives from the federal government for
'supposidly' complying.
In fact, good ole' Newt Gingrich made a public statement to the effect
(paraphrasing), "If the Mexican workers have such a problem with job
conditions then they should try immigration...just not to the U.S.."
Rick Langel
Sorry to change the subject, but...
>You have American businesses which go to their country (Mexico for
>instance) under the flag of NAFTA, and the minute the try to unionize so
>they can make their country better the businesses (Nike for instance) try
>buying off the officals to stop it. And when that doesn't work and the
>union is formed the business pulls out of the area to begin elsewhere.
Something that has always bugged me about unions these days in general, is that
they say that they are protecting the employees from an employer who wants to
screw them. Well, in these days of low unemployment and lots of jobs available,
if you don't like the company you are working for, why don't you just find a job
at a company that will treat you right? That's what the rest of us do. That
will either force a company to treat their employees better or go out of
business because they can't find any workers.
-Rick
Rick Langel
lang...@go.com
Jon Green
>Something that has always bugged me about unions these days in general, is that
>they say that they are protecting the employees from an employer who wants to
>screw them. Well, in these days of low unemployment and lots of jobs available,
>if you don't like the company you are working for, why don't you just find a job
>at a company that will treat you right? That's what the rest of us do. That
>will either force a company to treat their employees better or go out of
>business because they can't find any workers.
I had a lot of fun with unions yesterday. We were setting up for a trade
show in Boston and found that the contractor we were using to set up
our booth was not allowed on the floor of the convention center. We
were forced to use labor provided by the convention center. Instead of
taking 4 hours to set things up as our contractor had promised, the union
labor took 8 hours. Mostly because of their union-negotiated cigarette
breaks every 15 minutes. I guess there's no reason to do quality work
when your union has locked out competition.
Maurice Wick
>
> Very well put. Critical thinking is great. The world would be a bore
> with out it.
> But tolerance is also good. Aren't wars started, to some extent,
> because certain people become intolerant of others?
Wars are started and fought for money and power. Fear, ignorance and
ideology are the ring through the oxen's nose that allows it to be lead to
slaughter.
Maurice Wick
>
> Here's my first-cut take on it. On one hand you have tolerance
> and on the other you have critical thinking.
>
Cool, Ted, and sometimes they are the same thing....
>
> > ...but to each his own Moe.
> Where do I get my own Moe?
What have I missed?....I don't have a phoneline at the moment, and the
retention time is a little short.
Jim Zelle
Rick Langel wrote:
> Something that has always bugged me about unions these days in general, is that
> they say that they are protecting the employees from an employer who wants to
> screw them. Well, in these days of low unemployment and lots of jobs available,
> if you don't like the company you are working for, why don't you just find a job
> at a company that will treat you right? That's what the rest of us do. That
> will either force a company to treat their employees better or go out of
> business because they can't find any workers.
I agree, but you're missing the point. If they went to
another company they might actually have to perform some
work instead of relying on their seniority to keep their
job.
Jim
Caddy
Iowa that is owned by a larger company in Canada and is non union. We
specialize in metal stampings for the Automotive industry..the Big Three
plus all the foreign domestics. The CAW (Canadian Auto Workers Union)
has just finished "negotiating" contracts with Ford and Dahlmer Chrysler
and is getting ready to beat up on GM. Among their demands are that the
automakers write letters to companies like my parent company and DEMAND
that they allow their plants to become members of the union (CAW or
UAW). Ford said no, D Chrysler said No and the CAW almost went on strike
but backed down. Negotiations havent even started with GM and the CAW
has already set Oct 19th as the strike deadline!
The average wages for an unskilled, 3 year line worker employed by the
Big 3 is $60,000 PLUS benifits! Multiply that times the number of
workers they have and you can see why cars cost so damn much money. If
these cars were built by non-union labor entirely, you could easily take
40% off the cost of a car and make them affordable again.
Yes, I am against Unions. They had their time & purpose, but that is now
over. At one time some 25 years ago I was a member of the UAW. To this
day, I regret bending in to the demands of fellow workers that I join. I
was young and didnt know better. My union dues did NOTHING for me when I
was laid off prior to Christmas.
No one should feel that just because they exist, they are guaranteed a
job. YOu have to work hard and excel in your chosen profession to
continue to keep your job. This is the way it should be.
Go to Yahoo, in the stock section and enter the stock ticker MGA. Read
the news that pops up from the last 2-3 weeks and you can read some of
the CAW's demands. Then be sure to follow this in the next 1-2 weeks. Im
sure it will get interesting.
Ted H.
> What have I missed?....I don't have a phoneline at the moment, and the
> retention time is a little short.
A little short? It's sad. Hope the new drives allow a little
longer retention.
You haven't missed much. Sarah responded to your post and
I made a comment. My last line was just a tease about a
dropped comma.
Give my regards to Margaret. Are you guys still considering
coming through Indiana?
Ted H.
>
> Wars are started and fought for money and power.
Don't forget prestige.
Ben
> On 13 Oct 1999 23:22:40 GMT, Maurice Wick <big...@insosf1.netins.net> wrote:
> >
> > Wars are started and fought for money and power.
>
> Don't forget prestige.
And land, and grudges.
> Ted
>
> --
> Theodore Heise <the...@netins.net> West Lafayette, IN, USA
--
Ben (late...@usa.net) (http://www.netins.net/showcase/benssite/index/)
( GCS d- s+:+ a--- C+++>$ UL++ P++ L++ E? W+++ N+++ o? K- w--- !O M++
V PS+ PE Y+ PGP+ t 5++ X+>++ R- tv+++>+ b+>++ DI++++ D++ G e* !h !r y?)
(!$! Get paid to be spammed! http://www.sendmoreinfo.com/id/47518 !£!)
Maurice Wick
> Ted H. wrote:
> > On 13 Oct 1999 23:22:40 GMT, Maurice Wick <big...@insosf1.netins.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > Wars are started and fought for money and power.
> >
> > Don't forget prestige.
>
> And land, and grudges.
I'd put 'land' and 'prestige' as subsets of power...just as money might be
construed as a subset.
Grudges might also be considered under 'power' too...hell, with a broad
enough definition, most anything might fit under the umbrella of
'power'...sorta like the Freudian concept of 'libido'
Grudges however have a psychological componant of perception of ego-state,
self esteem blah, blah, blah which I feel make it's use in analysis a lot
more difficult.
"A grudge is a place to pork your core" --Pik Botha
Maurice Wick
> On 13 Oct 1999 23:28:25 GMT, Maurice Wick <big...@insosf1.netins.net> wrote:
>
> > What have I missed?....I don't have a phoneline at the moment, and the
> > retention time is a little short.
>
> A little short? It's sad. Hope the new drives allow a little
> longer retention.
>
> You haven't missed much. Sarah responded to your post and
> I made a comment. My last line was just a tease about a
> dropped comma.
>
> Give my regards to Margaret. Are you guys still considering
> coming through Indiana?
Ha!....I don't even have the time to start a proper cat fight.
First it was Hurricane Floyd...missed.
Then it was Tropical Storm Harvey...fizzled.
Now it is Hurricane Irene....overblown (so far xx <----fingers).
But, the good news is <drum roll>....I am a permenant resident of
Australia. (yeah!)
Indiana sound too cold at this time of the year...I'll email when I sit
down to figure it out.
Speaking of Indiana.... The word down here was that after dropping out of
the race, Dan Quayle wanted to move to Orlando to work for Disney. He
didn't do it because they already have a "Goofy"
....ooops, gotta run, the rain from Irene has finally started to come.
Is it just me, or does Gary Bauer look like a Chihuahua?
magus
<lang...@go.com> wrote:
> big...@insosf1.netins.net (Maurice Wick) wrote:
>
> >Take the salaries, bennies, stock options, perks of the CEO, Board, upper
> >and middle management and you can see why cars cost so damn much money....
>
> Add up the money paid to CEOs and compare it to all the extra union-negotiated
> benefits and extra salaries that union members get because they've got their
> employers by the balls and see which one comes out to be more.
Hmmm...never heard of union employess getting a golden parachute when the
plant closes.
Will have to ask Michael Moore about that one...
Rick Langel
>In article <GSgKOHs0=PL3f1JRli...@4ax.com>, Rick Langel
><lang...@go.com> wrote:
>
>> big...@insosf1.netins.net (Maurice Wick) wrote:
>>
>> >Take the salaries, bennies, stock options, perks of the CEO, Board, upper
>> >and middle management and you can see why cars cost so damn much money....
>>
>> Add up the money paid to CEOs and compare it to all the extra union-negotiated
>> benefits and extra salaries that union members get because they've got their
>> employers by the balls and see which one comes out to be more.
>
>Hmmm...never heard of union employess getting a golden parachute when the
>plant closes.
>
>Will have to ask Michael Moore about that one...
How many union members retire vs how many CEOs? How much extra in union
benefits are negotiated every year? I'm not saying people don't deserve to make
a fair wage, but when union members make more than a comparable non-union
position, something's wrong. Then when the company they work for tries to cut
back on those benefits to cut costs, the union starts crying 'union buster'.
Give me a break. I'm also not saying that I think CEO salaries are correct,
because I also think they are too high. But if you don't think product costs
are higher from union shops, you need to take your blinders off.
-Rick
Rick Langel
lang...@go.com
magus
<lang...@go.com> wrote:
Except you need to realize that when companies have to cut costs they
start at the bottom and work up...not at the top and work down.
In one interesting instance which Michael Moore wrote about, a car factory
needed to tighten their belt one year. For the amount they were asking in
union benefits cuts equaled the amount ONE CEO got in compensation pay for
the year.
Another interesting example...
The year the USPS (United States Postal Service) raised stamps to 32¢ was
the same year the top 25 executives split $8 million in bonuses.
Let's do the math...
32¢ divided into $8 million = 25 million
One million people had to send letters to pay for each of their raises.
If you figure out the cost per person for the amount the postal employees
got for the same year I think you'd see when you spread the price out it
isn't that much.
BTW...since you're interesting in this stuff (which I think is a good
thing) take a look at this website.
http://www.aflcio.org/paywatch/index.htm
It has a nice little section where you put your 1994 pay in and it'll tell
you how it compared to the average CEO. If you put $12,000 in (which I
think is still considered the poverty guideline according to the Feds) it
says today this person would be making over $64,000.
In 2003...over $238,000.
I'd challenge anyone to say that unionized pay is what raises consumers
costs as much as CEO costs.
Ben
> In article <RY4LOLFXZ9XGNj...@4ax.com>, Rick Langel
> <lang...@go.com> wrote:
>
> > How many union members retire vs how many CEOs? How much extra in union
> > benefits are negotiated every year? I'm not saying people don't deserve
> to make
> > a fair wage, but when union members make more than a comparable non-union
> > position, something's wrong. Then when the company they work for tries to cut
> > back on those benefits to cut costs, the union starts crying 'union buster'.
> > Give me a break. I'm also not saying that I think CEO salaries are correct,
> > because I also think they are too high. But if you don't think product costs
> > are higher from union shops, you need to take your blinders off.
>
> Except you need to realize that when companies have to cut costs they
> start at the bottom and work up...not at the top and work down.
>
> In one interesting instance which Michael Moore wrote about, a car factory
> needed to tighten their belt one year. For the amount they were asking in
> union benefits cuts equaled the amount ONE CEO got in compensation pay for
> the year.
>
> Another interesting example...
>
> The year the USPS (United States Postal Service) raised stamps to 32¢ was
> the same year the top 25 executives split $8 million in bonuses.
>
> Let's do the math...
>
> 32¢ divided into $8 million = 25 million
>
> One million people had to send letters to pay for each of their raises.
No, not really. The USPS hasn't made a profit in a long time, so I doubt much
of that money came from people sending letters.
> If you figure out the cost per person for the amount the postal employees
> got for the same year I think you'd see when you spread the price out it
> isn't that much.
>
> BTW...since you're interesting in this stuff (which I think is a good
> thing) take a look at this website.
>
> http://www.aflcio.org/paywatch/index.htm
>
> It has a nice little section where you put your 1994 pay in and it'll tell
> you how it compared to the average CEO. If you put $12,000 in (which I
> think is still considered the poverty guideline according to the Feds) it
> says today this person would be making over $64,000.
>
> In 2003...over $238,000.
>
> I'd challenge anyone to say that unionized pay is what raises consumers
> costs as much as CEO costs.
Did you ever happen to think that there are a couple more workers than CEOs?
> --
> "We're here to enforce the law for the landlords, businessmen, and [alumnus that donate more than $10,000] to [Iowa State University]...Students need to realize this before they bitch and waste our time." --paraphrased comment made by Ames Police Officer--
--
Jon Green
>Except you need to realize that when companies have to cut costs they
>start at the bottom and work up...not at the top and work down.
Good, because I really doubt the people at the bottom can run the company.
Who are you to say how much a CEO should make? Do you have ANY concept
of what value they bring to a company? Do you have ANY concept of what
work they actually do?
>I'd challenge anyone to say that unionized pay is what raises consumers
>costs as much as CEO costs.
Wonderful thing, this free-market economy. CEOs get paid what the
shareholders feel they are worth. My company pays me what the market
dictates it should pay me. If they want to pay me below fair market price
for my work, I'm free to go somewhere else. It's too bad the unions
don't want to let that work for everyone.
Steve Sheldon
>Wonderful thing, this free-market economy. CEOs get paid what the
>shareholders feel they are worth. My company pays me what the market
>dictates it should pay me. If they want to pay me below fair market price
>for my work, I'm free to go somewhere else. It's too bad the unions
>don't want to let that work for everyone.
You are confusing the low unemployment rate and your particular highly
desired market skills with free-market economy.
I don't believe you have appropriate perspective to be complaining about
Unions.
--
Steve Sheldon email: she...@yuck.net
BSCS/MCSE url: http://www.sheldon.visi.com
Rick Langel
[snip]
You seemed to have missed the part in my post where I stated that I agree that
CEO salaries an benefits are out of line. I also think that union salaries and
benefits are out of line, something which you have not responded to.
-Rick
Rick Langel
lang...@go.com
ka0...@netins.net
overtime, time off when you are sick, family leave, retirement plans,
401K's.
These are all employee benefits initially won by unions and now given
by most employers in order to be competitive in the job market.
If you think your employer gives you these benefits because he really
wants to or is just an all around nice guy, you don't know a hell of a
lot about employers.
If you wish to return to pre-union days, do so.
Tell your employer you want to work 16 hour days with no overtime.
Tell your employer paid vacation is a twink, and you do not wish any.
Tell your employer if you are injured on the job you will take care
of yourself.
Tell your employer your children will support you in your old age.
Tell your employer you think 40 cents an hour is fair wage.
If you want to go back to the 1800 world of employment, quit whining
about unions and tell your boss 12k a year after 20 years of service, is
fine with you.
Jim
Rick Langel
> You are confusing the low unemployment rate and your particular highly
>desired market skills with free-market economy.
>
>
> I don't believe you have appropriate perspective to be complaining about
>Unions.
What kind of skill set is required to make tires? I suppose you need to know
how to weld to work on the floor of a Deere factory, but I can teach you that in
a couple days. Electricians? I can wire my house and I the only job training I
got was when my dad told me to go fix the wiring in one of the buildings at
home. The desired markets skills are to find someone with a heartbeat and 2
hands.
-Rick
Rick Langel
lang...@go.com
Rick Langel
> Paid vacation, employer paid medical insurance, compensation for
>overtime, time off when you are sick, family leave, retirement plans,
>401K's.
>
> These are all employee benefits initially won by unions and now given
>by most employers in order to be competitive in the job market.
>
> If you think your employer gives you these benefits because he really
>wants to or is just an all around nice guy, you don't know a hell of a
>lot about employers.
Oh, don't get me wrong, unions had their place. The key word in that sentence,
though, is *had*. They no longer have use and only serve to suck as much from
an employer as possible.
-Rick
Rick Langel
lang...@go.com
Ben
> ma...@yebb.com (magus) wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> You seemed to have missed the part in my post where I stated that I agree that
> CEO salaries an benefits are out of line. I also think that union salaries and
> benefits are out of line, something which you have not responded to.
The important comparison would be if the average auto manufacturer's CEO
salaries are more above the average CEO salary compared to how far the average
unionized auto worker's salary is above the average non-union auto worker, if
you can understand that sentence.
In math, is
AutoCEO AutoUnionWorker
---------- > ---------------
AverageCEO NonUnionWorker
?
> -Rick
>
> Rick Langel
> lang...@go.com
Ben
> Paid vacation, employer paid medical insurance, compensation for
> overtime, time off when you are sick, family leave, retirement plans,
> 401K's.
>
> These are all employee benefits initially won by unions and now given
> by most employers in order to be competitive in the job market.
>
> If you think your employer gives you these benefits because he really
> wants to or is just an all around nice guy, you don't know a hell of a
> lot about employers.
>
>
> Tell your employer you want to work 16 hour days with no overtime.
>
> Tell your employer paid vacation is a twink, and you do not wish any.
>
> Tell your employer if you are injured on the job you will take care
> of yourself.
>
> Tell your employer your children will support you in your old age.
>
> Tell your employer you think 40 cents an hour is fair wage.
>
> If you want to go back to the 1800 world of employment, quit whining
> about unions and tell your boss 12k a year after 20 years of service, is
> fine with you.
That's a load of crap. The only time that would happen is if the economy
slumped. With unemployment as low as it is now, you can't afford to lose
trained employees to companies with better compensation.
However, if your company is screwing you, and you don't do anything about it,
whose fault is that?
> Jim
magus
<lang...@go.com> wrote:
> ma...@yebb.com (magus) wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> You seemed to have missed the part in my post where I stated that I agree that
> CEO salaries an benefits are out of line. I also think that union
salaries and
> benefits are out of line, something which you have not responded to.
Well, take university employees for instance. What exactly is extreme
about what they are getting?
Considering the fact that Iowa State University has been union breaking
since the big JisCHkahuna arrived several years ago I doubt any arguement
you could make could justify further consideration.
magus
Green) wrote:
> In <magus-18109...@news.iastate.edu> ma...@yebb.com (magus) writes:
>
>
> >Except you need to realize that when companies have to cut costs they
> >start at the bottom and work up...not at the top and work down.
>
> Good, because I really doubt the people at the bottom can run the company.
> Who are you to say how much a CEO should make?
Not sure if Japan still runs this way or not...
But it used to be that Japanese executives could not make more than twice
the amount of the person directly below him/her.
So if they wanted a raise the workers below him/her had to get one first.
I find this concept to be quite acceptable.
magus
<lang...@go.com> wrote:
They no longer have use and only serve to suck as much from
> an employer as possible.
I'll let Willy Wonka use my computer for a minute.
"Take that, reverse it, thank you."
Ben
Or a heartbeat and one hand, if you take affirmative action and that sort of
thing into account.
> -Rick
>
> Rick Langel
> lang...@go.com
John Hascall
>Not sure if Japan still runs this way or not...
>
>But it used to be that Japanese executives could not make more than twice
>the amount of the person directly below him/her.
>
>So if they wanted a raise the workers below him/her had to get one first.
>
>I find this concept to be quite acceptable.
At one point IBM had 34 levels of management, so
if the lowest paid guy made $1/yr, the president
could have made $17B/yr I expect he would find
that 'quite acceptable'.
John
--
John Hascall (__) Shut up, be happy.
Software Engineer, ,------(oo) The conveniences you demanded
Acropolis Project Manager, / |Moo U|\/ are now mandatory.
ISU Computation Center * ||----|| -- Jello Biafra
Steve Sheldon
>she...@visi.com (Steve Sheldon) wrote:
>> You are confusing the low unemployment rate and your particular highly
>>desired market skills with free-market economy.
>>
>>
>> I don't believe you have appropriate perspective to be complaining about
>>Unions.
>What kind of skill set is required to make tires? I suppose you need to know
>how to weld to work on the floor of a Deere factory, but I can teach you that in
>a couple days. Electricians? I can wire my house and I the only job training I
>got was when my dad told me to go fix the wiring in one of the buildings at
>home. The desired markets skills are to find someone with a heartbeat and 2
>hands.
Like I said, you obviously don't have the correct perspective.
I have had the opportunity to work closely with electricians in our
building who do all the data and electrical wiring. And I can assure you
that they are not trained monkeys.
It may not be rocket science either, but you do a disservice to your
argument by claiming it requires no skill.
ka0...@netins.net
Rick Langel <lang...@go.com> wrote in message
news:HuoMOMiv4zFcRY...@4ax.com...
> Oh, don't get me wrong, unions had their place. The key word in that
sentence,
much from
> an employer as possible.
>
And an employer's ultimate goal is to get the greatest amount of work
for the least compensation.
We probably don't need minimum wage or worker compensation laws either,
huh?
Jim
Rick Langel
> I have had the opportunity to work closely with electricians in our
>building who do all the data and electrical wiring. And I can assure you
>that they are not trained monkeys.
>
> It may not be rocket science either, but you do a disservice to your
>argument by claiming it requires no skill.
Never have I said that it requires no skill, but the skills are easily learned.
-Rick
Rick Langel
lang...@go.com
Rick Langel
> And an employer's ultimate goal is to get the greatest amount of work
>for the least compensation.
>We probably don't need minimum wage or worker compensation laws either,
>huh?
And what happens when an employee thinks that he's not getting compensated
enough and won't be? He quits and finds a better job. Soon the employer is
forced to either compensate better to gain and retrain employees or fold his/her
business.
-Rick
Rick Langel
lang...@go.com
Rick Langel
>Well, take university employees for instance. What exactly is extreme
>about what they are getting?
>
>Considering the fact that Iowa State University has been union breaking
>since the big JisCHkahuna arrived several years ago I doubt any arguement
>you could make could justify further consideration.
I know, I thought of that last night. There are some unions that may still have
use, teachers unions are one of them.
-Rick
Rick Langel
lang...@go.com
Jon Green
> And an employer's ultimate goal is to get the greatest amount of work
>for the least compensation.
>We probably don't need minimum wage or worker compensation laws either,
>huh?
Absolutely not. Minimum wage laws are yet another way that government
interferes with the economy, just like farm subsidies, corporate welfare,
rent control, etc. Minimum wage laws lead to higher unemployment, because
there are fewer jobs available for people with no skills and no work
history.
I'd be happy to recommend a couple books if you like. The economic theory
is a little much for me to write about here. For starters, see:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0226320618/qid=940442344/sr=1-1/002-2767704-3118631
magus
<lang...@go.com> wrote:
Boy, you had me worried there. Glad we at least agree on this. ;)
A perfect example of this was demonstrated a few years back. One of my old
instructors retired. It's now three years later and a full time person
still hasn't been hired to take her place. All they've done is put on two
part-time people who both have openly stated they were told by the
administration "this position is permanently part-time. Unless you
transfer to another job you'll never be made full."
It's an alarming trend which needs to be stopped.
Steve Sheldon
>ma...@yebb.com (magus) wrote:
>>Well, take university employees for instance. What exactly is extreme
>>about what they are getting?
>>
>>Considering the fact that Iowa State University has been union breaking
>>since the big JisCHkahuna arrived several years ago I doubt any arguement
>>you could make could justify further consideration.
>I know, I thought of that last night. There are some unions that may still have
>use, teachers unions are one of them.
[sarcasm]
Bah, if they don't like their job they can quit and go into the private
sector!
[/sarcasm]
magus
Sheldon) wrote:
> Rick Langel <lang...@go.com> writes:
>
> >ma...@yebb.com (magus) wrote:
>
> >>Well, take university employees for instance. What exactly is extreme
> >>about what they are getting?
> >>
> >>Considering the fact that Iowa State University has been union breaking
> >>since the big JisCHkahuna arrived several years ago I doubt any arguement
> >>you could make could justify further consideration.
>
> >I know, I thought of that last night. There are some unions that may
still have
> >use, teachers unions are one of them.
>
> [sarcasm]
>
> Bah, if they don't like their job they can quit and go into the private
> sector!
>
> [/sarcasm]
*standing ovasion for Steve*
*laugh* I do literally laugh out loud when I hear ISU professors saying
how they could make so much more in the private sector.
[sarcasm]
I'm sure their grade school and high school teachers, with classes of 30
students, feel the same way.
[sarcasm]
ka0...@netins.net
economic theories might be wasted on me.
Jim
Jon Green <jcg...@worf.netins.net> wrote in message
news:7ul000$ul6$1...@ins22.netins.net...
Jon Green
> As one who actually worked for 13 cents an hour, I feel your books on
>economic theories might be wasted on me.
I didn't think you'd be interested. Typical close-mindedness that I find
everywhere. If you prefer to remain mentally lazy, it doesn't hurt me
any. Keep believing what your union and your government tells you to
believe.. they like it better that way.
ka0...@netins.net
> I didn't think you'd be interested. Typical close-mindedness that I
find
> everywhere. If you prefer to remain mentally lazy, it doesn't hurt me
> any. Keep believing what your union and your government tells you to
> believe.. they like it better that way.
>
> -Jon
>
As opposed to your one-sided and half-baked opinions?
Sorry, I'm afraid they are lost on me also.
Jim
Max565
> As opposed to your one-sided and half-baked opinions?
> Sorry, I'm afraid they are lost on me also.
ROFLMAO!
Hey Jim, ever consider that truth and reality are always onesided?? Never
known an exception to that rule.
It's prolly okay to be "diverse" until it comes to tangible results. Are you a
big supporter of "multi-culturalism" too??
God Bless,
Dan Larsen
Evidence, Inc. (Serving all of NE and IA since 1988)
PO Box 873
Council Bluffs, IA 51502-0873
Phone: 712-328-0358
Fax: 712-328-1063
E-Mail: Max...@aol.com
sheldon
>In <7umc5q$q7p$1...@ins22.netins.net> <ka0...@netins.net> writes:
>> As one who actually worked for 13 cents an hour, I feel your books on
>>economic theories might be wasted on me.
>I didn't think you'd be interested. Typical close-mindedness that I find
>everywhere. If you prefer to remain mentally lazy, it doesn't hurt me
>any. Keep believing what your union and your government tells you to
>believe.. they like it better that way.
Jon, given that various people have refuted your claims and you still prefer
to believe the story line that big business management has spoon fed you...
I think calling others closed-minded is like the pot calling the kettle
black.
Ben
> Jim writes:
> > As opposed to your one-sided and half-baked opinions?
> > Sorry, I'm afraid they are lost on me also.
>
> ROFLMAO!
>
> Hey Jim, ever consider that truth and reality are always onesided?? Never
> known an exception to that rule.
Of course they are one sided. I believe he was referring to the fact that no
one, especially people like you, can see all of truth or perceive the real reality.
> It's prolly okay to be "diverse" until it comes to tangible results. Are you a
> big supporter of "multi-culturalism" too??
>
> God Bless,
> Dan Larsen
>
> Evidence, Inc. (Serving all of NE and IA since 1988)
> PO Box 873
> Council Bluffs, IA 51502-0873
>
> Phone: 712-328-0358
> Fax: 712-328-1063
> E-Mail: Max...@aol.com
--
Max565
>Max565 wrote:
>> Jim writes:
>> > As opposed to your one-sided and half-baked opinions?
>> > Sorry, I'm afraid they are lost on me also.
>>
>> ROFLMAO!
>>
>> Hey Jim, ever consider that truth and reality are always onesided?? Never
>> known an exception to that rule.
>
>Of course they are one sided. I believe he was referring to the fact that no
>one, especially people like you, can see all of truth or perceive the real
>reality.
>
Oh, yeah, . . . I forgot, . . . it's common knowledge that anyone
even just barely right of center is an unfeeling, unthinking, cold hearted,
uncaring, person who is so embedded into the hardline thought processes, as to
be living in a fantasy world. Does that accurately reflect what you're trying
to say??
Jeeeez, what'd that other guy say about, (paraphrasing), buying into
some stereotype because it's convenient to your own agenda??
Of course, I must be wrong about most anything that you would
consider yourself an expert on, right??
You would be willing, of course, to repudiate any claims you would
have to any riches you might acquire, by whatever means, because that would
make you one of those hated rich people, and prolly someone who would want to
buy into or become a business management-type, correct??
>> It's prolly okay to be "diverse" until it comes to tangible results. Are
>you a
>> big supporter of "multi-culturalism" too??
God Bless,
Dan'L
Jon Green
X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #7 (NOV)
>Jon, given that various people have refuted your claims and you still prefer
>to believe the story line that big business management has spoon fed you...
When exactly did I promote the stories of "big business?" Oh wait, I
understand now. In your narrow mind, being against unions automatically
means I agree with "big business." What a black and white world you must
live in. I've got news for you.. "big business" doesn't like my ideas on
economic policy any more than the unions do.
>I think calling others closed-minded is like the pot calling the kettle
>black.
If you actually knew anything about me, I might consider your insult.
All I did was suggest someone read a book. What a terrible thing. It
reminds me of the "devout" religious folks who refuse to learn about
other religions, for fear that it might "tempt" them.
On that subject, here's another book I recommend:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0879753366/qid=940742802/sr=1-28/002-1705601-9717024
Chapter 2 is applicable to this discussion.
It's funny listening to "liberals".. they are just as conservative as
the "conservatives." God forbid anyone should have to consider a new
idea.
ka0...@netins.net
sufficient age to have a concrete opinion on employer/employee
relations. It would be interesting for him to post on the subject again,
in say ten years, and see how his opinion has changed.
I once was naive also, thought my employer was my best friend who
always had my best interests in mind, and cared about me as an
individual and fellow human being.
But then the alarm clock went off and I woke up.
Jim
sheldon
>>I think calling others closed-minded is like the pot calling the kettle
>>black.
>If you actually knew anything about me, I might consider your insult.
>All I did was suggest someone read a book. What a terrible thing. It
>reminds me of the "devout" religious folks who refuse to learn about
>other religions, for fear that it might "tempt" them.
Frankly don't care. I just know from past discussions that you are fairly
closed-minded yourself and I think it's absolutely hilarious for you to be
accusing others of this trait.
Jon Green
> I once was naive also, thought my employer was my best friend who
>always had my best interests in mind, and cared about me as an
>individual and fellow human being.
Heh, yes, that was naive. My employer and I have a business relationship.
I provide them with work, they provide me with a salary. There's not
much more to it than that. I'm not sure what the confusion is here...
Ben
> Ben (late...@usa.net) writes:
> >Max565 wrote:
> >> Jim writes:
> >> > As opposed to your one-sided and half-baked opinions?
> >> > Sorry, I'm afraid they are lost on me also.
> >>
> >> ROFLMAO!
> >>
> >> Hey Jim, ever consider that truth and reality are always onesided?? Never
> >> known an exception to that rule.
> >
> >Of course they are one sided. I believe he was referring to the fact that no
> >one, especially people like you, can see all of truth or perceive the real
> >reality.
> >
>
> Oh, yeah, . . . I forgot, . . . it's common knowledge that anyone
> even just barely right of center is an unfeeling, unthinking, cold hearted,
> uncaring, person who is so embedded into the hardline thought processes, as to
> be living in a fantasy world. Does that accurately reflect what you're trying
> to say??
Did I say any of that? No.
If you can prove that you can see all of reality, I'd have you cloned and used
as the jury in every courtroom on the planet, since you would be the only one
really qualified for the job.
> Jeeeez, what'd that other guy say about, (paraphrasing), buying into
> some stereotype because it's convenient to your own agenda??
>
> Of course, I must be wrong about most anything that you would
> consider yourself an expert on, right??
>
> You would be willing, of course, to repudiate any claims you would
> have to any riches you might acquire, by whatever means, because that would
> make you one of those hated rich people, and prolly someone who would want to
> buy into or become a business management-type, correct??
>
> >> It's prolly okay to be "diverse" until it comes to tangible results. Are
> >you a
> >> big supporter of "multi-culturalism" too??
>
> God Bless,
> Dan'L
--
Ted H.
> >I think calling others closed-minded is like the pot calling the kettle
> >black.
>
> All I did was suggest someone read a book. What a terrible thing.
You went a little further. Perhaps you didn't mean it, but you
effectively called him close-minded and mentally lazy.
Ted
--
Theodore Heise <the...@netins.net> West Lafayette, IN, USA