Hurdy-gurdy video

[bighatlady]

My band, Diabolis in Musica does sort of medieval vaudeville at
renaissance faires. Here's a link to our latest show - we thought it
came out pretty well even if it lacks a certain dignity....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDUe2pbvQWk

If this doesnt' work - google youtube - Diabolis in Musica -
Platterspeil

[Jon Redpath]

That was superb, I love people who enjoy what they are doing. So VERY VERY funny. Superb. Its a pity it cannot be downloaded here. JON --- On Tue, 8/12/09, bighatlady <jrde...@comcast.net> wrote:

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[Augusto de Ornellas Abreu]

Too bad we could not hear the HG!

 

btw, how did the little gurdy take such a heavy cranking?

 

very fun!

 

Augusto

Brazil

hurdygurdy+...@googlegroups.com

[Ron Geering / Barbara Blair]

I caught your show at Richard's Faire and thought it was very funny and enjoyed it thoroughly. Unfortunately, this particular piece is presented as an introduction to the Hurdy Gurdy, which most people have neither seen or heard. It leaves the audience with a questionable impression.

Still more power to you! Your show was the most entertaining for me.

Ron Geering

[Hobgo...@aol.com]

I regret not being able to hear the hurdy-gurdy over the bombarde, or shawm, or whatever it was. It was fun to watch, though.

Cheers,

Alice

 

In a message dated 12/9/2009 7:41:24 A.M. Central Standard Time, quisset...@earthlink.net writes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDUe2pbvQWk

[Bruno Fournier]

its pathetic if you ask me.  The shawm player cannot play without skwacking and the Hurdy player cannot be heard.  Incidentally the hurdy gurdy as such is not a medieval instrument.  Only the simfonia and the organistrum existed in the middle ages.  This performance is hardly what the this piece in the  Cantigas de Santa Maria was meant to be I'm sure.

 

Bruno

 

www.estavel.org

lute,oud, flutes and sinfonia player

 

 

--

[Hobgo...@aol.com]

A little harsh, surely. I have played the bombarde and the shawm, and they take a great deal of strength, even if they do squawk. Go to the following site:

 

http://nnm.ru/blogs/maravilloso/the_waverly_consort_las_cantigas_de_santa_maria/

 

for some additional input. See the nice pictures.

Cheers,

Alice

[Bruno Fournier]

Maybe a bit harsh, but as a musician specializing in early music for the past 30 years, and the last 10 in medieval music, I find it pathetic that we are still finding groups ridiculing this music and making buffoons out of themselves.  Incidentally I do not pretend to play shawm or bombard well, but I play it better than this guy.  And yes it does take a lot of breath, but if you can't hack it, don't play it. The problem with all those medieval feasts, is that the public doesn't care about the music , the context or even if its remotely authentic.....they just want to have background noise and have a good laugh.  

 

I've done the medieval feast, banquet scene, medieval wedding scene, etc,   and I'm tired of it.  

 

Bruno

www.estavel.org

 

 

 

--

[Hobgo...@aol.com]

Ditto, Bruno, as to 30 years in the biz and all that you say about "medieval feast, banquet scene, medieval wedding scene" -- plus renfests -- and playing multiple instruments (viola da gamba, h-g, vielle, crummhorns, recorders, harps, cornamuse, and rumble pot) -- yes, it's a tough gig, but I'm still having fun at it, and sometimes I hit a bad note, and maybe I'm not 100% authentic all the time. But I have seen three or four groups along the way that were so authentic that they put me to sleep around verse 23. By the way, tried to see your website, but it seems to be down at the moment.

Cheers,

Alice

www.hobgoblinhill.com  

[Bruno Fournier]

Hi

 

Well my gigs are now mostly concerts in small churches etc, it may not be any more authentic, but at least I respect the music.  We try to tell a story in our gigs, instead of just playing piece after piece.  Our concerts have themes, such as the 100 years war or a piglrimmage to Compostella.. and we try to educate the audience by making them imagine what people would have heard, who they would have met,etc ,etc.

 

the site should be back up, I didn't realize this morning when I had a power failure that my web server inside my home was not back up

 

hope you understand french...

 

www.estavel.org

 

 

Bruno

p.s estavel is an old french word for Flame or light..,,

 

--

[Sergio F. Ribnikov]

Bighatlady,

Even though the hurdy gurdy cannot really be heard, I enjoyed the video!

Bruno, it would be interesting to listen to your music. You are surely quite gifted. 30 years of playing, wow! A shame your site does not work. Now I`d sincerely suggest you to spend at least one year of your remaining many years in learning a bit of modesty and humility... and how to write a worth-reading comment .

Moreover, if you feel tired of what other people enjoy, I suggest you to rest, sleep or hibernate from the scene (but please don´t babble or snore in the mailing list).

Guys, keep up showing us what you do!!!

2009/12/9 <Hobgo...@aol.com>

--

[Michael Opp]

I thought it was great. I'm also very jealous, where i'm at (Fargo, ND) there is practically no where to do any sort of gig like that for hundreds of miles. There is also a great lack of people to do it with around here. (but i'm slowing gaining some loyalties around my campus)
I grew up in rural North Dakota, and the first thing that I was taught when i started to be around people aside from my close family was: 'If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it"  although, in these parts, no one every really says anything that has to do with emotions. This being said, at least at a renaissance faire, the audience will somewhat enjoy the music being played, where as, I'm sure that no one would say a world if they saw what I was doing with the gurdy to keep myself busy.

I'd like to see more videos. Very ridiculous looking show. =D

-Michael

2009/12/9 Sergio F. Ribnikov <ribnikov....@gmail.com>

[Geoff Turner]

Bruno
 
It all depends really on whether you are trying to entertain the rabble or please people who have as much interest in early music as yourself. There is as much a place for street musicians in the medieval world as there is for serious music, and the guys ay the faire would , I'm sure, not appreciate your brand.  Horses for courses. You certainly would not have got serious music at a fair in the medieval and renaissance period. Take the lemon out of your mouth and lighten up, there's a place for everyone.

Regards
Geoff Turner 
Medieval and renaissance hurdy-gurdy player and 'street' musician in the UK


 

---

Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 19:54:39 -0500
Subject: Re: [HG-new] Hurdy-gurdy video
From: br...@estavel.org
To: hurdy...@googlegroups.com

---

Use Hotmail to send and receive mail from your different email accounts. Find out how.

[Hobgo...@aol.com]

Dear all--

In re periodicity, I have performed at the Louisiana Renfest since 2000, and about 6-7 years ago, a madrigal group appeared. They were gorgeously, historically garbed, and sang beautifully. In short, they raised the tone of the whole festival. Three weeks later, they were gone, and never were invited back. I asked the entertainment coordinator why. He said he could not justify paying them, since they did not promote themselves aggressively, and did not attract large crowds. Many Renfest entertainers must accept that they will be grossly underpaid, and will expand their income with tips and CD sales. The Renfest management must often rob Peter to pay the jousting team, which is their biggest draw.

Cheers,

Alice

[20...@simonwascher.info]

Hello,

I would like remind you that the SCA (www.sca.org) is the "Society for Creative Anachronism", not for true representation of the past.

In the germanspeaking countries its quite established to distinguish between music for the medieval fair and music for the early music concert.

For early music concert it usually gets presented as "Frühe Musik" (= early music) or as "Musik des 13. Jahrhunderts" (= 13th century music) or similar. The terms "Mittelalter" (= Middle Ages) or "mittelalterlich" ( = medieval) practically are used for the music for the medieval fairs only.

They are seen as two independent genres. One that presents a "historically informed" "true-to-scale representation" and one that handles fair like in "fairy tale". A sword fighting group here in Austria prints "The medieval times as they should have been" :-) on their flyer - its "Historically inspired Entertainment" (© Mike Gartner).

Arguing about this entertainment in terms of historical correctness would be as if one would treat the film "Ben Hur" as realistic presentation of the roman antiquity.

Kind regards,

Simon Wascher

[Patricia Lipscomb]

Re: the question of "making fun" of early music - Surely there is also a distinction between "making fun of" something and performing a light-hearted spoof up of something in the best tradition of performers such as jesters, who did indeed make buffoons of themselves, as did pranksters, both real and imaginary, such as the probably apocryphal Till Eulenspiegel (chronicled in Richard Strauss' Till Eulenspiegels lustige Streiche - Till Eulenspiegel's Merry Pranks) of German folk tales, which date back to Medieval days. Granted, Till, even in his buffoonery, had lofty aims, i.e., holding up a mirror (hmmm - Spiegel) to the vices and weaknesses of the powerful and privileged (Simon, please correct me if I am getting some of this wrong), and one could argue that playful performances do not serve this kind of social function. BUt the point is that spoofing has a long and honorable history that dates back at least as far as the actual Middle Ages and is an entirely appropriate part of light-hearted folk festivals.

BTW, Felicia, your reference to cleavage is right on. Years ago, when I had cleavage that anyone might have cared about (as opposed to now - going to be 62 next month) I worked as an alehouse wench at Ren Faire. The mistress of the alehouse felt that we were not getting enough tips so she walked over to me and yanked my bodice down about 3 more inches of inches, and - with all the "bodice tipping" - sure enough, that old tip bucket started filling right up.

Trish

[bighatlady]

Well, in addition to my sarcastic first comment - I do want to say
thanks to all who complimented the performance. I do not for one
minute aspire to set myself up as a professional HG player and I'm
usually the best HG player at the faire by virtue of being the only
one. For purists, I do play a renaissance style HG - and it is a
renaissance faire (minus all the elves, storm troopers and vampires of
course).
I do aspire to play authentic music and since I am aware of no "one
way" in which 500 year old songs must be arranged, we take liberties
to arrange the songs in the ways that we think will best entertain our
audience. We are goofy, stupid and very slapstick. I'm curious why
some people think that human nature has changed so very much over
time. You only need to read Shakespeare or Chaucer to know that a
good brawl, love scene or smutty comment keeps people entertained.
There are so many miniatures of minstrels, dancing, skipping and even
bashing each other over the head with their instruments - that to
believe that only authentic music is serious music is pure nonsense.
I often wonder - what did the street minstrels do? those not paid
by the court, untutored in reading music with less than perfect
instruments- how did they keep body and soul together? I think they
did what street musicians do today - kept it loud and lively. I'm a
classically trained musician and I've done the chamber music stuff but
I really feel the most kinship with the past when playing at a faire.
If I can make my rather "plebian" audience clap and dance to a 500
year old tune, I think perhaps I've captured something essential of
the tune - more so than by reading any arrangement that's been written
down since.
Oh yes - although I don't show any more cleavage - the Friar does
hoist his tunic and do a little knock-kneed dance for a different
number we do. If any of you faire performers are ever in
Massachusetts, feel free to look me up - we love to have guest
performers...


>

[Hobgo...@aol.com]

Wow! So true. Don't underestimate one's attractions at 62. My cleavage is better now (62) than ten years ago. I mean, at least now I have one. Now as I think about it, I make lots more tips playing hurdy-gurdy sitting down than standing up. Hmmmm.

Hey,

Alice

[Patricia Lipscomb]

Thanks, Alice. What a boost, as it were. I need SOMETHING to distract people from how my playing sounds.

[Felicia Dale]

You just need a "Heart's Delight" bodice. Guaranteed cleavage! Only
works if you don't have to sing, tho'...

Felicia.

[Felicia Dale]

Distraction, attraction, it's a fine line...  :)

[Martin Lodahl]

There's much in this discussion that I've found interesting, at least in
part because I too am an early music veteran, and abandoned it as a way
to make a living over 30 years ago because I was so tired of fighting
the battles. I understand Bruno's viewpoint and there was a time when I
might have said much the same thing, but one reason that I never do is
the consideration that I wasn't actually there in the middle ages and
the renaissance. I can make guesses about how it might have sounded and
others can too, but we can never really know, so there are pretty sharp
limits to the judgments we can make. Many careers have been made and
lost in battles over this unprovable question. Other list members have
spoken very well indeed about suiting the performance to the venue and
about the distinction between a musical ideal and "musica practica;" at
a Shakespeare festival where I used to play there was this one couple
who came every year from several states away apparently for the express
purpose of sniping at us for using plastic reeds in our Krummhorns.
When your job is to play several shows per day in variable weather
conditions on a large number of instruments, something of a bargain has
to be made between authenticity and practicality.

What I've found truly encouraging, though, is that there's a clear
consensus in favor of civility. What Bruno said was really quite gentle
by internet standards, and the response to it has been even more so,
while making the collective shock perfectly clear. No hint of a flame
war. Nice.

- Marty

--
Martin Lodahl of Auburn, California
UNIX Pro, Musician, Motorcyclist

[Bruno Fournier]

Then if you play Renaissance HG in a renaissance context, why are you playing a piece of music, loosely based on a 13th century piece found in a Manuscript from Alonso the Xth reign in Spain, which I doubt very much was accessible to street musicians in the 15th century.

 

anyways, I think that there we cannot know in any way, what street musicians played.  We know what court musicians played in the Renaissance, based on the manuscripts and publications ( printed music came out with Gutenberg's printing method, and the first published lute tablatures were in 1508), but to say that medieval and renaissance street musicians played what had been written or published is a far fetched.  Rather composers often based their music on popular tunes from the oral tradition

 

In any case my initial comment was not so much an attack on the style of music, but rather on how poorly played the instruments were and how unmusical the piece was with that interpretation.  Furthermore these Renaissance and medieval  are of nothing more than just a big bash, with no educational  value whatsoever.

 

I do not pretend to be a great musician, nor to be authentic, but I don't go around parading on youtube either.

( can't wait to see the replies on my comments  :-) 

 

 

Bruno Cognyl-Fournier

 

www.estavel.org

 

 

 

>

[Bruno Fournier]

Sorry but if you post a video and then send an email to the list to view it, why should you expect everyone to like it?  I initially said that I thought the performance to be poor and pathetic.  I have a right to my opinion, just like the people who wrote back to the list in praise of that performance.  Of course taste is  subjective, I like Dijon mustard, some people don't like Dijon mustard...

 

If one cannot criticize a video posted on the list, then I shall abstain.

 

Bruno
 

[VonH...@aol.com]

I have done Ren Faires now for 20 years and I have to add that the original Renaissance Faire was simply an art fair with a theme. The fairs universally have always been more about entertainment and art than about true re-enactment.

There are those that fit into the "as close as possible yet still practical" category at most fairs as well. I have a period correct looking costume and rubber soles on my shoes. What is right and wrong at Ren Faires is not the same as what the is right or wrong at historic re-enactments. I have met those that hand sew their entire set of clothes right down to the underwear and they scoff because I only "look" the part. Others buy something that velcros up the back and run around the faire getting drunk and staring at boobs. If you fall in any of the above you are pretty much welcome at a fair. Once again, it is not the same for true re-enactors.

As far as the HG goes, I am also the only regular HG player at the local faire and I play French trad on my luteback. I found long ago that there are those that prefer to remain "period correct" at all times and I applaud them for the dedication and great work. There is a group at the fair that is a very good early music group (who spurned me when I first brought my HG to Faire...no word if they have decided that I can play yet) and I leave all the early stuff to them. The truth is I don't much enjoy early music and, although I could play it, it does not float my boat.

The debate about what is period and what is not (a never ending "you show me your source and I will show you mine" fight) is best left out of the Ren Faire circuit all together.

 

Although I enjoyed the concept of the performances as a whole I am against anything that shines a dim light on the hurdy gurdy. I work hard to try to get people to learn HG and I think it is always a struggle when someone doesn't take it serious enough to play it well. So I have to say: overall performance good. HG performance: not so good.

 

Lastly, you will generally find me to keep my fingers away from the keyboard when I have something really bad to say, so know that I am not bashing the group just saying as a dedicated HG player that I hate to see the HG lowered in the eyes of the general public. I also understand that the performance in general was not solely about the HG.

 

Scott

[Colin]

This discussion reminds me (being very old) of something similar when Bob Dylan played electric guitar in the second half :-)

Whilst understanding things (I do remember the upset when one guy had the audacity to turn up at a traditional folk club with, of all things, a GUITAR!).

Of course it does depend on what one is trying to portray.

Just because an instrument has been around a while, doesn't mean it has to be played in a certain way nor, I may add, in a certain context.

Being in the UK where we have the origins that the ren fairs attempt to emulate, there still are plenty of spoofs (and I am quite sure the buxom barmaids at the ren fairs don't all have rotten teeth to get the authentic look either nor many have their teeth blacked out either - although maybe some do).

Sometimes we really do have to put our instincts down a peg or two and accept things for what they are. FUN.

Quite different to an academic stance and should be seen as that.

Being critical of performer's  skill is OK (within reason) but genre and style maybe less so.

I'm afraid, where music is concerned, I'm very open-minded and pretty well anything goes.

I don't bother listening or watching stuff I don't like but I do uphold the right for others to do what they want.

We should be laid back over this lest others think that we belong to that group that says (in funny voice) "Oh, that <insert object here> wasn't invented until ten days after this is supposed to be set". I am, I'm afraid, very guilty of this with swashbuckling tales set in the 1700's when watching a sailor play the concertina - and a late 19thC one to boot!

Does it matter in a film? No. Would it matter in a history lesson - Yes.

I think the main point for complaint would be if it was stated as an authentic reproduction or not (I doubt it was).

If it wasn't then the "feel" of the evening is what counts, not the authenticity - to me, at any rate.

 

Colin Hill

----- Original Message -----

From: Bruno Fournier

To: hurdy...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 3:05 AM

Subject: Re: [HG-new] Hurdy-gurdy video

[20...@simonwascher.info]

Hello,

the recent postings on this topic gave me the imression that some people understood my postings as having a negative opinion regarding the music styles of at the medieval fairs. That is not the case. I really sympathise with people who stand in for doing the "Creative Anachronism". There is allot of truth in it.

Its just honest to say "yes, what we are doing is a fairy tale, yes we know this is for sure not how its known it was, yes its succsessfull entertainment".

This also concerns the "early music concert" department. Also in this business there are many speculative elements and modernisms hidden from the audience.

The differnce just is somehow between "we honestly care for the history" and "we honestly do not care" wherein honesty is the common ground.

All I asked for is to be careful. We should just not forget that the audience cannot not know about this topic as much as the performers do. The audience does therefore not have (unlike the performers) the possibility to do an informed differentiation between historical truth and fairy tale. This gets us performers close to a position in which we are endangered to profit from someones naivity. In my *personal* catalog of fairness this is not the right way to go.
I do not mean performers do this intenitionally, all I want to say is: be careful not to accidentally do this, by not being aware of the gap of knowledge between musicans and audience.

In german I would put it to "Wissen verpflichtet" maybe this can be translated as "knowledge oblige".

Kind regards,

Simon

[Dennis Sherman]

Simon Wascher said

> For early music concert it usually gets presented as "Frühe Musik" (= early
> music) or as "Musik des 13. Jahrhunderts" (= 13th century music) or similar. The
> terms "Mittelalter" (= Middle Ages) or "mittelalterlich" ( = medieval)
> practically are used for the music for the medieval fairs only.

I'm coming late to this discussion, but wanted to thank Simon for pointing out this distinction. I think its useful terminology to help us keep track of what it is we're trying to do. Whatever kind of performance you're doing.

--
Dennis Sherman
Chicago, IL, USA
http://www.dennissherman.com

[Felicia Dale]

I agree with you completely.  That is why when people ask me for information about the hurdy gurdy or the music we play we give them what we understand to be common knowledge and then point them to the real experts if they want more.  I fell into music sort of accidentally and the gurdy doubly so.  I am always continuing to educate myself about music and my instruments but I am not an expert and I do not hold myself up to others as one, especially those who don't know much at all about the subject.  It's important to keep the distinction clear between fantasy and fact.  US ren faires are fantasy- but when the fantasy takes a little break, as when I explain the gurdy, I revert to factual content and always point people to real experts in early/medieval/renaissance music if they want more information.  

Interestingly, being truthful does not always result in a happy "customer."  We played a pirate festival a few years ago, the sort of festival that is so obviously fantasy that no one should be expected to be thinking that there is any truth involved at all, and a woman shopkeeper asked me what the historical significance of my costume was.  I was very sorry to have to explain that my leather bodice (more appropriate to a fairy than any pirate) and other gear were not in the least bit historical.  Perhaps my hat was approximately appropriate... but otherwise, pure fantasy.  Considering this was well off-stage (she never heard me perform) and that numbers of Johnny Depp "Captain Jack" clones were literally staggering around us as we spoke, I was surprised she was disappointed about my costuming.  

It's a tricky thing.  We are entertainers and, at the same time, de facto educators and yet often people don't want to hear the truth- they want the fantasy to be real, that the Renaissance had clean streets, barmaids with full sets of teeth and water was always safe to drink, that pirates were basically good hearted rogues who would rob you perhaps but only kill you if you were bad.  Another part of the fantasy is that anyone who is "on stage" must be right, must be telling the truth, must be able to be counted on to give out only accurate information.  That is a real problem in the US which anyone who watches our politics would be quick to see how far this can lead people astray.  :( 

Regardless of what people think they want to hear it's best to be kind and tell the truth.  They may be initially disappointed but in the long run it's best all around.

Felicia.

[Michael Knapp]

Some entertaining break: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0EDrtEBsA8

As I'm playing with my hurdy gurdy also on medieval faires, I have this
type of discussion again and again :-)

Michael

[Augusto de Ornellas Abreu]

Hillarious video, Michael!

 

I particularly enjoyed the discussion about turkeys and pirates by the end of the song!