Fwd: [HG-new] The hurdy gurdy in medieval art.

[Wolodymyr Smishkewych]

Hi Ernic,

Thought I'd chime in, with some observations of my own, based on singing with these instruments:

there might have been two general types of hurdy gurdies: one with a rather smal body for religious and more serious music (especially for accompanying singing?) and one with a large body for folk/dance music (functioning as a parallel of the bagpipe). Both in several shapes. Is this just an impression, or might it be true or is it false?

My thoughts regarding size (and of course this is related to the shapes/layouts): The size of the instrument is directly linked to its resonance, tone, and affects the placement (ie. distance) of the wheel vis-a-vis the bridge, affecting timbre and tone to an extent. This then makes a difference as to how the voice interacts with the instrument. Taking this into account, adding to it if we presume that Odo's reference to an "organistrum" in his attributed "quomodo org. construatur" is indeed one of the larger instruments, closely associated with the ecclesiastical world, and then adding as well that empirically speaking, the smaller sinfonias are almost always associated with the courtly milieu, it might seem that the following is somewhat the case:

up to about 1300/1350:

Organistrum (either 1- or 2-person): predominantly depicted in religious scenes/perhaps in religious use

sinfonia: almost unfailingly depicted in a courtly setting (Cantigas is courtly, though dedicated to Virgin Mary)

from about 1350/1400 onwards:

keyboard on top or closer to wheel, 1 person, more "bosch-like" instrument, depicted in both sacred and secular settings

very few organistrum-type layouts seen past 1400s.

Now, as to singing with the instrument, the character of singing is quite different, of course: a larger instrument, with its different resonance (usually a bit mellower, a bit darker, less nasal) lends itself quite well to voices (especially the longer string lengths of organistrum, to male voices--given the register) and to accompanying chant and medieval song. Your Aachen, and my Burgos-Leon instruments, are examples of such instruments. They conform to that organistrum-shaped body. The tessitura or primary range of many of these instruments--which can of course be changed by restringing--seems  to lend itself well to live around G. With regards to resonance, there are of course certain soundbox sizes and shapes of instrument that lend themselves better to certain pitches. 

The timbre, color of the tone, etc. of smaller sinfonias usually lends itself better (in my experience) to minnesang, trouvere chansons and troubadour cansos, sung virelais (ie. the cantigas are an example) and other music with courtly ties. My hypothesis here is that it is based on the manner of textual deliver as well, since a delivery closer to speech, such as chansons and minnesang, would tend to compete more with an instrument--so it would make sense for that instrument to have a more forward  presence.

These are just a few thoughts, based on my experience with the instruments and singing medieval music. Becuase what enchants us on this list is the instrument, it might sometimes slip the mind that the primary instrument in the middle ages was the voice, and most other instruments work with it or emulating it, the few exceptions of known instrumental music notwithstanding.

Tanks again for your interesting thoughts, Ernic! (PS: I'll be around NL in May with Sequentia on the Oudemuziek circuit, give a shout if you will be near Maastricht, Enschede, Rotterdam, A'dam, or Utrecht!)

All best,

Vlad

On 1 Apr 2013, at 00:52, ernic <e.kam...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello Andrew,

Much later than I promissed, but now, here is a link to a set of pictures of hurdy gurdies before 1650:
www.mijnalbum.nl/Album=DLOPTEIY
The link is only temporary, after some weeks it will be deleted.
Apart from some pictures that I took from internet, it contains several 5MB photos made by me (essentially 9 objects plus a copy from a book), and these are for privat use. Publication is not allowed unless the owner of the painting, print or sculpture (see title) grants permission for publication, (You don't need my personal permission.)

One of the photographs is from a print by Pieter van der Heyden, which refers to a print of Jeroen Bosch, you will know probably: see
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Jheronimus_Bosch/Copies_and_paraphrases
http://kunstgeschichte.univie.ac.at/fileadmin/user_upload/inst_kunstgeschichte/Texte/Bosch_s_Cripples_and_Drawings_by_His_Imitators.pdf
I have seen an original but, alas, I have no photograph of it.

I hope that this will help and i am very interested in your results.

Personally, I have some questions that interest me:
 - I suppose that the origin of the hurdy gurdy was an instrument that supplied a variable set of drones (playing all 2 or 3 strings together with fifth/octave distance). I think that, apart from the organistrum, also smaller hurdy gurdies might have been of this type. Is there any evidence how long this type has lived?
Anyhow, I think that an instrument with 4 (or more) strings is of the melody plus drone type: four parallel strings are not very useful and would have a very broad tangentbox because of the necessary distance between the strings. And, obviously, the keyless hurdy gurdies must have been of the melody plus drone type (see also one of my pictures).
This question might be enigmatic forever.
 - From the pictures I have seen, I got an impression that, in late medieval and early renaissance, there might have been two general types of hurdy gurdies: one with a rather smal body for religious and more serious music (especially for accompanying singing?) and one with a large body for folk/dance music (functioning as a parallel of the bagpipe). Both in several shapes. Is this just an impression, or might it be true or is it false?

I wish you good luck with your research, and you might see (part of) an answer to these questions.

Ernic Kamerich

Op zondag 17 februari 2013 09:38:41 UTC+1 schreef Andrew Orrison het volgende:

I will be working on a research paper about the Hrudy gurdy and was wondering if you all know of locations of the hurdy gurdy in art besides the following pieces. 

c.1100 (11th century?) Wolfenbiittel Gud. lat. 334 (Augsburg) 

measurement treatise 

1149-1154 Visio Tnugdali (Regensburg) 

c.1160 Paris, Notre Dame 

c.1170 Boscherville 

c.1170 (late 12th century) Soria 

c.1173 York Psalter 

c.1175-I205 Hortus Deliciarum 

c.1188 St. Iago de Compostella (Cathedral) 

late 12th century St. Louis Psalter (York) 

late 12th century Riotiron 

late 12th century Moradillo de Sedano 

late 12th century Toro 

late 12th century Estella 

late 12th century St. Iago de Compostella (Bishop's palace) 

12th century Honnecourt-sur-l'Escaut 

12th century Luttrell Psalter 

There is also of course the Bosch piece as well. 

Thanks for your assistance!

--Andrew Orrison

--
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "hurdygurdy" group.
To post to this group, send email to hurdy...@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
hurdygurdy+...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at
http://groups.google.com/group/hurdygurdy
 
The rules of posting, courtesy, and other list information may be found at http://hurdygurdy.com/mailinglist/index.htm. To reduce spam, posts from new subscribers are held pending approval by the webmaster.
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "hurdygurdy" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to hurdygurdy+...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 

Wolodymyr Smishkewych

wolodymyrsmishkewych.com

wolodymyrs...@mac.com

[Ernic Kamerich]

Hello Wolodymyr/Vlad,

Thank you very much for your very interesting observations!
With all uncertanties in medieval painting the most convincing source for musical practice is the practice itself, in my opinion.

My own experience with the Symphonia and the Aachen is, that the Symphonia often is the better instrument in accompanying a singer, if it is an intimate song with a rather modest role for the hurdy gurdy, just giving a color to the chant and, at times, an intermezzo. In many other cases, with singers and possibly other instruments, the Aachen works fine, and its range from a (one tone above violin-g) is fine as well. However, for instrumental music with loud instruments, especially with bagpipes, its uppertone-rich sound is drowned, these cases ask for a darker tone, more base; the use of a soundpost and, I think, having a larger body, is better for this purpose.

Yes, I have already a ticket for the concert in Amsterdam, May 14th, a concert of Sequentia is not to be missed!. I can come to you with the Aachen at some time (on that day or another in the time that you are in there Netherlands). It will be a pleasure for me to see you and you will be able to hear and play the Aachen.

With kind regards

Ernic

2013/4/1 Wolodymyr Smishkewych <wolodymyrs...@gmail.com>

[Felicia Dale]

Hi, folks, 

if anyone near Vashon Island is interested, there is some kind of gig needing a gurdiest. I know nothing about it except that it's for this coming weekend. Here's a contact: Luz Gaxiola <luz...@gmail.com>

F.