Sources for Lute-Back HG making

[Norm Sohl]

On another tangent, Tim mentions building the Jiri from scratch, and I
wanted to suggest that he (and any amateur thinking about a luteback)
consider ordering a copy of the Germanisches Nationalmuseum's Lasnier
luteback plan, MIN52.
http://forschung.gnm.de/ressourcen/musikinstrumente/service/gnm_tz_roentgen.
pdf has more information and ordering info. Personally, I found it 27 euros
well spent. It requires a little work to muddle through the German if you
don't already speak the language, but not that difficult, and the rewards
are worth it, at least in my opinion. That way you would invest your time
building forms and tools for a more traditional looking instrument. Of
course, if you have fallen in love with the Jiri, I say just go for it!
--Norm

[timw]

Thank you, Norm!

I appreciate every little clue and roadmap I can get on this 'journey,
or as RT said, 'gurdymania'. I will check it out. Another book I have
found that is helpful is:

Historical Lute Construction, Robert Lundberg
Guild of American Luthiers
ISBN-13 978-o-9626447-4-0
ISBN-10-0-9626447-4-9

This book is pricey, and is on building lutes, rather than gurdies,but
should help building the body. Would I recommend buying it for gurdie
making? I am undecided, maybe someone else here would offer their
opinion. If it is available at a public library, rather than buying
it, yes.

I'm betting Norm's recommendation, even in German, would be more
helpful. Thanks, Norm. Tim

On Nov 1, 9:21 pm, Norm Sohl <n...@sohl.com> wrote:
> On another tangent, Tim mentions building the Jiri from scratch, and I
> wanted to suggest that he (and any amateur thinking about a luteback)
> consider ordering a copy of the Germanisches Nationalmuseum's Lasnier

> luteback plan, MIN52.http://forschung.gnm.de/ressourcen/musikinstrumente/service/gnm_tz_ro....

[Roy Trotter]

Sorry, I'm  AN RT.... not THE RT..... different guy. Although I'm flattered, I can't the credit (all that awesomeness &c, &c, &c) ...... That's one reason I don't use many initials.

But ... I need to point out (voice of experience) that you will probably not be satisfied with a symphonia. You really do want/need a 5 or 6 string Vielle. Also, generally you probably don't want a small wheel -- much less than  5 inches (Reminder: I am now handicapped and it could take all day to type these little "bullets". Explaining "why" Is a bit beyond my capabilities. Feel free to discuss, tho.)
And then, you really don't want an authentic, historical instrument; The wheel would wobble. I'm not sure about the time frame: Alden would know, the real RT might. The good techniques and materials didn't happen until the 1960's? for wheels anyway. So you really don't want a "historically accurate" gurdy as a first project. You got enough on yer plate as it is. Maybe someday you can do an all wood and bone (oh, yeah... + gut) instrument, but for now you'll be happier with delrin and cold-rolled steel. .... Take my word for it....

Not the Real RT, (the unreal one?)
Roy T.

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[Norm Sohl]

I liked "Historical Lute Construction", but it is oddly silent on the
subject of form building as I recall. Lovely book though. There is an
excellent book (in German again) that follows the construction of a luteback
based on the plans I mentioned in my last note called Bau einer Drehleier,
by the HG builder Helmut Gotschy. I notice that Amazon has it second hand
at the moment for a reasonable price:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001FSNIX2/sr=8-1/qid=1320248385/ref=olp_pr
oduct_details?ie=UTF8&me=&qid=1320248385&sr=8-1&seller=

The pictures alone are worth it!
--Norm

Thank you, Norm!

--

[David Gillett]

Not any more - I just bought it! (Thanks Norm!)

I also just bought Michael Muskett's plans for a Pimpard luteback which I know are excellent. Did set me back 80-some bucks, but worth it.

Here's another source for aspiring builders, materials rather than books or plans. I am  currently building an HG based on the Pimpard plans, and my lute body is an actual lute - I cannibalised one of those eBay $500 "Pakistani Lute Specials" (**heavy sarcasm**) which is an almost exact match to the Pimpard. Those lutes (and ouds) might not be playable in their own right, but they make a great HG body!

At this point I have to acknowledge and thank Mell Dorries for his willing assistance. He very kindly let me use his workshop for about four days, which gave me access to his drill press, bandsaw and belt sander so I could get the "heavy lifting" done - removing the flat soundboard; cutting, shaping and glueing the struts; shaping the body for a curved soundboard; and drilling for the shaft and bearings. He's going to make up the wheel, axle and keychest for me, so I should be able to the rest of the work on my kitchen table (famous last words!!).

David

[timw]

Thanks again, Norm. I ordered the Helmut Gotschy book. I can't read
german, but I bet the pictures 'are worth 1,000 words'.

I didn't find the Lasnier MIN52 plan yet, the link didn't work for me,
but later I'll try finding it through the museum's website. Tim

On Nov 2, 2:01 pm, Norm Sohl <n...@sohl.com> wrote:
> I liked "Historical Lute Construction", but it is oddly silent on the
> subject of form building as I recall.  Lovely book though.  There is an
> excellent book (in German again) that follows the construction of a luteback
> based on the plans I mentioned in my last note called Bau einer Drehleier,
> by the HG builder Helmut Gotschy.  I notice that Amazon has it second hand
> at the moment for a reasonable price:
>

> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001FSNIX2/sr=8-1/qid=1320248385/ref...

> For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/hurdygurdy
>
> The rules of posting, courtesy, and other list information may be found athttp://hurdygurdy.com/mailinglist/index.htm.  To reduce spam, posts from new

[timw]

Hi Roy,

Thanks for the help!

I'm building Graeme McCormack's Jiri, not the symphonia. But I will
listen to your voice of experience, glady. I am pretty ignorant about
hurdy gurdies still. The Jiri is two octave chromatic (360mm scale),
with four chanters, three trompette and three base drones. I can't
remember which strings are which without checking with my notes yet.
It also has sympathetic strings. The wheel is about 7 1/2", I think.

Thanks for the tip about the delrin, too. I have a lot to learn, Tim

I'll need to read the archives, I don't know of the other RT yet.
Take care

[Augusto de Ornellas Abreu]

So, David, any progress on the luteback since I saw you working on it there at the Dorries'?

Please do make a blog or something to show us your new baby!

Augusto

[David Gillett]

Hmmm!  I wonder who got there first!  David

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[Augusto de Ornellas Abreu]

I myself tend to think that too many strings only muffle and dull the overall sound of the instrument. Instruments with that many strings usually sound great through a pickup system, but have a weaker sound acoustically. It's a question of sharing the load with too many strings...

Some makers I've talked to - notably Daniel Thonon and others - shared that impression...

[timw]

No worries, David. You got there first. I had to order it new because
I was asleep at the wheel. Enjoy, Tim.

[timw]

Thanks for your help, Augusto.

I am learning from you guys as I go. I am going to keep my ears open
with this group, listen and learn. I will be building the beginning
gurdy this group uses for the build thread, too. I saw Graeme's Jiri
and just loved the look of it - he made a beautiful instrument. I will
only be playing it at home, to scare my dogs (just kidding, but I know
I will be making scary sounds for quite a while!). I don't know enough
yet which set-up will be best so I appreciate your thoughts.

I know 'fools rush in where angels fear to tread' so I hope to build a
simpler set-up gurdy too. Tim

On Nov 2, 3:18 pm, Augusto de Ornellas Abreu

[Samantha Riffle]

I have to say, this whole discussion has been really interesting to read. Thank you all for sharing!

I just wanted to pop in and say that if any of you find yourself stuck on certain parts of those German books, I might be able to help - I'm a German-to-English translator. :) I don't know much about building hurdy gurdies, but if you come across some vital sentences in those books that Google Translate can't help you with, I'd be happy to try to help decipher them.

-sam 

[Matthew Szostak]

Seems to me that on this list, a few centuries ago, there was discussion about a translation of Helmut Gotschey's book - done with his approval?

Does this sound familiar?  Was there ever any outcome?

~ Matt

[timw]

Thank You, Sam!!!

The knowledge of this group is amazing. Tim

[cwhill]

Hey, that's right.
I remember translating a particular phrase into readable English (the
translator had done a literal translation which didn't quite make sense).
Wasn't it someone on the list who was working on it? Or was it the other
list?

Colin Hill

On 02/11/2011 23:44, Matthew Szostak wrote:
> Seems to me that on this list, a few centuries ago, there was discussion
> about a translation of Helmut Gotschey's book - done with his approval?
>
> Does this sound familiar? Was there ever any outcome?
>
> ~ Matt
>
>
> On Nov 2, 2011, at 7:37 PM, Samantha Riffle wrote:
>
>> I have to say, this whole discussion has been really interesting to
>> read. Thank you all for sharing!
>>
>> I just wanted to pop in and say that if any of you find yourself stuck
>> on certain parts of those German books, I might be able to help - I'm
>> a German-to-English translator. :) I don't know much about building
>> hurdy gurdies, but if you come across some vital sentences in those
>> books that Google Translate can't help you with, I'd be happy to try
>> to help decipher them.
>>
>> -sam
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 12:14 AM, timw <kf6...@surewest.net
>> <mailto:kf6...@surewest.net>> wrote:
>>
>> No worries, David. You got there first. I had to order it new because
>> I was asleep at the wheel. Enjoy, Tim.
>>
>> On Nov 2, 3:18 pm, David Gillett <geedav...@gmail.com

>> <mailto:geedav...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> > Hmmm! I wonder who got there first! David
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 5:57 PM, timw <kf6...@surewest.net
>> <mailto:kf6...@surewest.net>> wrote:
>> > > Thanks again, Norm. I ordered the Helmut Gotschy book. I can't
>> read
>> > > german, but I bet the pictures 'are worth 1,000 words'.
>> >
>> > > I didn't find the Lasnier MIN52 plan yet, the link didn't work
>> for me,
>> > > but later I'll try finding it through the museum's website. Tim
>> >
>> > > On Nov 2, 2:01 pm, Norm Sohl <n...@sohl.com

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[Pieter Lambrechts]

All,

Just to add some more candy, why don't you have a look at the blog 'Naissance d'une vielle' (Birth of a HG) written bij Ruprecht Niepold, about the creation of a lute back by an amateur builder from Belgium.
http://www.sons-et-couleurs.eu/vielfrna.htm

It's not the 'traditional' approach, but it gives you an idea.
It's in French (or Dutch) but Google Translate will bring you a long way when trying to decipher the descriptions and the discussions added to it.

Cheers
Pieter

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[Roy Trotter]

Supposedly. but it got kinda dead ended by the publisher. I may still have the pages somewhere.