gurdy teacher in Lisbon?

[doug.abshire]

Hi. In Aug 2011 I am moving to Lisbon Portugal for a 2 year work
contract. I will be bringing a volksgurdy from Olympia Musical
Instruments. I am a new beginning student!

Does anyone have a contact in Lisbon?

Thanks,

Doug

doug.a...@gmail.com

[Jane Ruckert]

Hey guys,

I am currently trying to organise a weekend workshop in Melbourne (or
surrounds) and have a couple of dates in mind around the end of June, start
of July. Can any Aussies who are interested please email me off the group
at ja...@gurdygirl.com just so that I can get an idea of numbers... if there
is anyone out there interested.

Cheers,
Jane

[Augusto de Ornellas Abreu]

Sorry for taking so long to reply - I am going through some old unread messages

Maybe you'll find someone in Lisbon, because the gurdy is quite popular in the neighboring country of Galiza (NW bit of Spain on top of Portugal). There it is called zanfona. In Portugal it is called "sanfona" or "viela de roda".

Try to go to Santiago de Compostela or A Coruña in Galiza and you will find many gurdyists around. There are even at least two "folk universities" in Galiza that teach the HG in their curriculum, and I've heard that the usually have weekend classes - it is easy to drive back and forth from Portugal or hop on a train or something. It is all subsidized and really cheap.

Augusto

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[Antonio]

With reference to learning to play hurdy-gurdy:
Before Reading Augusto's message I thought that i have no idea about
teachers in portugal.
I live in Spain and started learning to play hurdy gurdy few weeks ago
in Santiago de Compostela.

For sure:
.- Santiago de COmpostela - http://www.folque.com/lang.php?lg=ing --
Teacher: Oscar Fernandez

.- Lugo: Centro de Musica Fingoi - http://musica.fingoi.com/ -
Teacher: German Diaz

by reference:
.- Vigo: Escola de Gaitas e Percusión da Deputación de Pontevedra

.- Ourense:Escuela de Gaitas de Ourense

I got a second hand instruments made by Rebollo
http://rebolloinstruments.com/galeria.html
This is just to say that you can also find some luthiers in Galicia
area

hope it helps

--------------

On 1 dic, 13:40, Augusto de Ornellas Abreu

[Augusto de Ornellas Abreu]

I also have an instrument by Rebollo, that I picked up at Anxo Pintos' house (another gurdyist, from Vigo - he is in the groups Berroguetto and Lizgairo - check him out!).

Oscar is a great teacher - does he teach now in Santiago? I know he lives in Narón, not that far from A Coruña. I didn't know that Germán taught. I visited with him in Santiago (he used to live there at least) and he is a great guy, and a virtuoso!

Try contacting Anxo Pintos (you can find him looking for his group on facebook or myspace - he has a FB profile as well), he is another great teacher - he doesn't use the trompette string, because traditional Galician gurdies don't even have those.

Try contacting Mauro Sanín (on Facebook as "Ariel Ninas" or "A Central Folque"), he is a great gurdyist Germán and Oscar introduced me to.

I will try to upload a video about a folk music college (that doesn't exist anymore, unfortunately) in Lalín in which everyone can watch Oscar and Mauro playing, as well as other great folk music performances from Galiza. It is all in Galician, but the language barrier will not be a problem, I hope.

Augusto

[wenc...@interacesso.pt]

Boa tarde /Good evening:
Perhaps you can find some help from the
Attambur group in
Lisbon
http://www.myspace.com/attambur
They had HG as part
of their group but it's been long since they issued their CD and I don't know
if they are still active. Anyway, the cover for the CD was clearly HG-oriented
as you can check here:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juo5LnWPSbk
Some
years ago, Amadeu Magalh�es (from the group Realejo) offered courses in
Coimbra for the GEFAC in the Associa��o Acad�mica building. It was
Amadeu who taught the courses, in spite of being the luthier Fernando Meireles
the one who played in the
group.
http://www.realejo.web.pt

Espero que seja de
ajuda,
Wenceslao Mart�nez Calonge

-----------------------------------------
Simplesnet GTI, a net at� 6 vezes mais r�pida, ao mesmo pre�o de sempre!

http://www.simplesnet.pt/

[eu paulo p.]

...Just a little not directly "gurdiest" (gurdistic? gurdiewhatever??) thing, Augusto: hurdy-gurdy, the word, is "sanfona" in galician language, never "zanfona". That is the spanish one. I know, there is a word you can hear there in my little country. Consequences of colonialism. But idiom is what it is.
(let me give you an example, not about colonialism just about linguistic substitution --different causes, but it can be useful-- : "chanterelle" or "chien" or "mouche", they are not english words and they are pretty used in our english conversations).

...eu,

pirata petulante,

namorado sem amante,

malabarista errante,                      

músico ambulante,            

           eu, tam breve...

---

From: augusto....@gmail.com
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2011 10:40:49 -0200
Subject: Re: [HG-new] gurdy teacher in Lisbon?
To: hurdy...@googlegroups.com
CC: doug.a...@gmail.com

[Augusto de Ornellas Abreu]

it is that I have heard many Galego speakers saying "zanfona" (with a th sound and all), and I presumed that zanfona AND sanfona were probably two accepted variations within all the dialects in Galiza. I also assumed that a more proper Castilan name would be "zanfoña", as I've heard elsewhere.

I am all for protecting the Galician language, it is so beautiful (and so beautifully close to my own language, Portuguese - even closer, somehow, to Brazilian Portuguese than to Continental Portuguese, I wonder why).

[Augusto de Ornellas Abreu]

Talking about that, here is a trailer to a short feature movie made my cinema students in Lugo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=GZBXlIMcKmc

(from the synopsis) It is about a blind man that roams around the streets of Lugo with his dog and his new instrument, a hurdy-gurdy. When the instrument is stolen, his life changes so drastically that he thinks about taking his own life.

Cool, a whole film centered around the gurdy, with gurdy soundtrack. It is a short feature, of course, but that is quite interesting. I will check with people I know to know when and how we can get a hold of the whole film.

P.S. In here they use "zanfona" as well, and the movie is, as far as I know, in Galician. The name of the movie even is "Zinfonía" 

[eu paulo p.]

...No way. Augusto, I am galician, galician is my only language (I've never spoke spanish, never in my whole life), I am "busy" with linguistics and philological issues since 18 ( I am 33 years old). As i told you, you can hear "zanfona" in Galiza, my country. You can hear "zanfona" by galician people. But that is no the question. "Zanfona" is a spaninsh world, no doubt. It isn't my or yours opinion. Idiom is what is. Maybe in the year 2513 we'll (not "we" obviously) say "zanfona" and "sanfona" are two accepted variations of the same word. Not today. People are more and more colonized here in Galiza and it's reflected in their language. But, and this is important, galician idiom isn't. Can you see (I am sure) the difference? It's a speaker deficit or problem, not language's.

I dont want disturb, believe me. Maybe this is not the place to this question ('strictu senso' there is no question at all, as I said. Only opinions vs. phylology).
Português é galego, galego é português. Desde Coseriu, que tratou este nosso idioma particularmente, ninguém duvida isto. Discrepâncias sobre isto na Galiza são apenas na "representação", isto é, na ortografia.

I know this is not so interesting for this group. My fault, maybe I souldn't have put the question. Sorry for that.

...eu,

pirata petulante,

namorado sem amante,

malabarista errante,                      

músico ambulante,            

           eu, tam breve...

---

From: augusto....@gmail.com
Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2011 08:24:24 -0200

[Augusto de Ornellas Abreu]

I never disagreed with you, Paulo. I just said I heard many Galician people saying "zanfona" (with the "cedillado" sound, th as in thing) while speaking Galician. I have no intention to contradict you, as you of course know way more about this than I ever will.

The only context I saw "sanfona" used more often was when people adopted the reintegrationist spelling ("nom", "umha", etc), as in Portugal they also say "sanfona" or "viela de roda".

I was just saying as I saw and heard on a SHORT trip around your country, it was by no means me telling you how to speak your own language.

I do love your language and try as much as I can to explain to people the difference between Galego and Spanish and how I could travel all around your country speaking Brazilian Portuguese, sometimes only adapting one word or another (like how you prefer "mercar" instead of "comprar" (which, I've heard, is a possible verb as well)).

graciñas pola explanación, Paulo!

[eu paulo p.]

...Glad to talk/write with you, Augusto.
I saw the video (your last message) with Carlos and Anton. Carlos do Viso is the father of my modern hurdy-gurdy. Now he is making a baroque gurdy for me, after Louvet 1733. Good friend, great gurdy maker.

...eu,

pirata petulante,

namorado sem amante,

malabarista errante,                      

músico ambulante,            

           eu, tam breve...

---

From: augusto....@gmail.com
Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2011 12:28:30 -0200

[Leonard Williams]

       As a basically mono-lingual individual (I speak English, study Italian), I find it fascinating that a discussion/debate can be conducted in English by native speakers of Portuguese and Galician about their respective languages.  We Americans are certainly behind when it comes to verbal communication!

Regards,
Leonard Williams
           _
         [: :]
        / |  | \
       |  |  |  |
       (_==_)
           !~¿

hurdygurdy+...@googlegroups.com <mailto:hurdygurdy%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>

[Augusto de Ornellas Abreu]

We only made it in English as not to keep any of you outside the discussion - some of it may be offtopic, but many tidbits here and there are of interest to many here. Since Galician and Portuguese are almost the same language (they used to be exactly the same language until a couple of centuries ago - Portuguese is a descendent of Galician actually - when the Spanish got that part of the land under their control and Portuguese started undergoing its own influences from Africa and native languages in Brazil), we could have been talking each in his own language and the mutual comprehension would be 100%. Most people find that fascinating...

You can see it that movie trailer I posted a fine example of a traditional Galician hurdy-gurdy, with no buzzing bridge and a piece of wood in the shape of a chess pawn (peón/peão in our language(s)) as the drone bridge.

[Leonard Williams]

Augusto--
        I seem to have missed the movie trailer you mention.  Could you post its address again? My own instrument is very simple—no trompette.  It would be nice to hear another that may be similar to it.
 
Thanks and regards,
Leonard

hurdygurdy+...@googlegroups.com <mailto:hurdygurdy%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>  <mailto:hurdygurdy%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>

[Christa Muths]

Hola All,

just a quick response: I find this a very interesting discussion as I live near Valencia in Spain and if I am lucky people here know viola de roda (hurdy gurdy) but never Zanfona and I was not aware that this word was used in Galicia. So thanks Augusto.

For those who speak several languages and there are many on this list, I am just reading a very exiting book on languages and translation: "Is that a fish in my ear" by David Bellow. This is just ome sentence off topic. :-)))

Saludos

Christa

--

"Wo der Wind des Wandels weht, bauen die einen Mauern und die anderen Windmühlen."

Chinesische Redensart

"Where the wind of change is blowing some build walls and others windmills."
Chinese proverb

"Cuando el viento de cambio sopla unos construyen muros y otros molinos de viento."
Proverbio chino

[Augusto de Ornellas Abreu]

Viela de roda is more used in Portugal and Brazil (well, up until recently I was the ONLY gurdy player in the whole country, now we have our friend Rique), but I've heard only once that "viela de roda", since it is valid in Portuguese, COULD (emphasis on the conditional) be used in Galicia as well, but the normal word is zanfona/sanfona (sanfona being the normative one, and zanfona a "castillianized" version).

Leonard

the link is

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=GZBXlIMcKmc

[Antonio]

Hi,
I am not willing to argue about one letter in a word. However, Sorry
to say this but my Galician dictionary only shows "Zanfona" and
recommends not to use "Zanfoña". (Ed. Xerais - published 2009) - But i
have to say that you find both in contemporary written galician.
Augusto can explain to you that in Brazil "Sanfona" will be understood
by most people as a different instrument (not sure about english word:
Accordion, maybe?). (when I was a child we had a "porta sanfonada" in
our home in Sao Paulo).
I promised not to discuss about this sobject anymoe in this group.
But same language has variations between countries, and within
different regions inside a territory.
the portuguese expression " apanhar a bicha" has a total different
meaning to a brasilian. In Brasil they would say "pegar a fila" (get
the queu)

Augusto, Galician and portuguese were the same language (not one
before the other, just the same) until one galician king divided the
kingdom in two parts - one for each descendant.
The first daughter (with the bigger chunk of territory) fought against
castille and lost (then galicia kingdom became part of castilla) -
the second was growing the territory in south direction as the
christians took over land after fighting with muslins (in here between
711 and 1492). So Portugal became a kingdom being just a smal portion
in the north and grow after. (This also explain the origin of the
Bragança Kings - with origin in "Tras os Montes" region - up notheast
portugal)
The only point is that language evolved in different ways. Of course
galician influenced by castillian (or spanish as you prefer)

Christa muths -See wikipedia in Spanish : Galicia/Galiza : "Zanfona
=Sanfona = Zanfoña" --Zamora: "Gaita Zamorana" - Asturias: "Zanfona /
Gaita de Rabil / Zanfonía" - Basque Country: "Zarrabete" -
Catalunya and Valencia Community: "Viola de roda" - Palencia:
"Rabil de manubrio"

The catalan player Marc Egea has published a hurdy gurdy manual named:
"Iniciació a la viola de roda". Written in catalan - and the name
shows that in name "Viola de Roda" is used in catalan and for
extension in that area of Spain.

For "Eu Puaulo P." and all of you. It seems that older galician gurdys
found have a hole in the upper side of the carcass (latearl superior).
Does anyone knows what the function was of it?

regards, apologies for mistakes of my writting (and perhaps for a long
message)

On 4 dic, 20:33, Augusto de Ornellas Abreu

[Wolodymyr Smishkewych]

Dear all,

I've kept quiet about the zanfona/zanfoña matter since I don't wish to fan the lively flames of Galician orthographic-linguistic polemic (and admittedly having a foot in both "camps" myself via personal and family connection, I'd probably annoy both sides, heh heh...) but I will add that I noticed throughout my fieldwork in these past years, that speakers of Castellano within the current gurdy-reviving circles tend to refer to the instrument as 'zanfona' (minus the 'ñ') as per the diccionario Xerais. However, personal usage varies. I have some makers on record in Zamora calling the instrument a 'zanfoña', others in Galicia calling it a 'zamfoña' but bear in mind that, as I understand it, np/nf and mp/mf transference is a common thing. Professional linguists, please correct me if that is wrong. 

Juan Varela de Vega mentions at the beginning of his 1980 article "Anotaciónes históricas sobre la zanfona" (http://www.funjdiaz.net/folklore/07ficha.cfm?id=7) some synonymies of the term, for what it's worth. He includes a few languages but frustratingly enough doesn't separate the Galician+Portuguese terms from Spanish (grumble!) . However he does mention the Libro de buen amor (1389), where the terms mentioned 'cinfonia', 'zamponna', as well as 'çinfonía' and 'çanpoña'.

But enough on that--Antonio: Xulio García Bilbao published an article in Revista de Musicología that makes reference to the hole on the lower bout of the instrument, see here:

http://ret007ei.eresmas.net/reolid/a-santalices.html

NB: the footnote numbered 23. However, García Bilbao doesn't mention that, if indeed the exemplar that Santalices had was a modified vielle organisée, then the remaining possibility might be that the hole is there much like the 'mousehole' common to many harpsichords built with an otherwise closed-off soundbox, simply a way to equalize air pressure between the inside and outside of the instrument. While on a harpsichord the wood itself and the seams are probably porous enough to allow enough atmospheric equalization to avoid drama of any sort, in a vielle organisée it might be possible that the movement of internal bellows etc might displace enough air to make the little air-hole desirable. I might also be totally off base on this one. Any thoughts, folks?

Ate breve, 

Vlad

[eu paulo p.]

...Oh, to finish (or not?) with this: there is no question about that. You cannot get "auctoritas" in people, and I hope you guys don´t missunderstand the assertion. I mean, Galiza is a occupied territorie, at least as paradigm to study linguistic situation. When Sociolinguistic, or Historical Linguistic or whatever, studies attributes, characteristics, of galician-portuguese language in this country (not galician-portuguese language in Portugal, Brasil, etc., that is another different question) it  studies them under this paradigm: an occupied territorie. So, speakers have the esquizofrenic behaviour (I mean in a linguistic perspective) of this environment. It happen not only in Galiza and there is a lot of literature about this. But an idiom has its structure, derivation's rules, formation patterns, etc., all of them historically determined. Remember, galician language appears in IX century, with massive lyrical creations since XII (ca. 1196, first well known 'cantiga'), administrative texts, etc. So, it has a long history in which it was defined as a system, as a whole organism. All of that is not new, I guess, it's already known. The point: "sanfona" derives from greek and later latin "symphonie". There is no way to the radical of the latin word becomes "zan-" in galician, it will be always "san-". I said before, this idiom has some development rules historically defined and, by the way, this is the reason for which  latin --one system-- come to be galician-portuguese, french, catalan, romanian. All of them walk trough the History in their own different ways (with commun or contact points, sure, but it's not the case).

The problem: spanish pression (opression, more correctly). But this is a problem (today) with people, with speakers, it's my problem as a native speaker (in school, in high school, with the Government, etc), it's our problem as nation (about the relation with de Lord --spanish kingdom, of course--, about the relation with the always intolerant spanish culture), it has consequences in the control or knowledge of the idiom they (speakers) can or cannot achieve. But it's not ('in se') a problem with language itself. Not yet today (sorry Lord). Because galician idiom has (I wrote it) a huge linguistic, literary, etc. "corpus" (a millennial one, literally) And, today (it is not so clear for the future, here is one of the points of our fight) we know that "symphonie" becomes "sanfona" in this part of the world.

Social questions, and I finish I swear, relates to the fact of some dictionaries (Xerais, 'verbigratia') show "zanfona" or another wrong word. Because Franco died in 1975 and reconstruction takes its time and, nowadays, spanish imperialism thought makes his work. Just to finished, to better understand: between 1936 and 1975 it was forbidden to speak galician Real Academia Galega da Lingua ( Galician Royal Academy of Language) and so near as 1986 this institution was presided over by the Subdelegado do Governo Espanhol (I dont known how I could translate this, sorry. Anyway, it's a part of spanish government structure, not galician government, he follows and take orders from Spain). It's a little bit hard to understand, isn't it? Welcome to spanish kingdom and its colonies.

(Note that I am not speaking about the conflict "reintegracionismo" vs. "isolacionismo". I am, believe me, in the heart of this conflict but this is not the question here, not with this word) 

...eu,

pirata petulante,

namorado sem amante,

malabarista errante,                      

músico ambulante,            

           eu, tam breve...

---

From: wolodymyrs...@googlemail.com
Subject: Re: [HG-new] Re: gurdy teacher in Lisbon?
Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2011 23:16:38 +0000
To: hurdy...@googlegroups.com

[eu paulo p.]

...<between 1936 and 1975 it was forbidden to speak galician Real Academia Galega da Lingua ( Galician Royal Academy of Language)>
I want to say " ... it was forbidden to speak galician at Real Academia ..." (inside the institution)

...eu,

pirata petulante,

namorado sem amante,

malabarista errante,                      

músico ambulante,            

           eu, tam breve...

---

From: dithy...@hotmail.com
To: hurdy...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [HG-new] Re: gurdy teacher in Lisbon?
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2011 03:09:05 +0100

[Wolodymyr Smishkewych]

Well said, Paulo!

(ghe ghe, e gracinhas--melhor ti esplicar-lo qu'eu, non sei se a alguen con meu nome ou apelhido farian-lhe moito caso... ;^)

 

Bringing the topic back to gurdies: as regards the whole hole situation (bad pun intended) and the Santalices instrument in question, this brings up a very interesting controversy indeed, and for our little 'viellistic' world here, suffice to say that it (the Santalices model and what it represents) is part of what divides two principal ideological camps within the iberian gurdy scene, as it were.

ciao a tutti,

Vlad

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[Leonard Williams]

The hole on the instrument discussed at that website may be for air flow.
That "gurdy" is really a lira organizzata--a sort of portable pipe organ
(medieval regals) with bellows worked by a crank.

This has become off-topic, but it is none the less interesting. I don't
usually get to listen in of conversations with topics like this one.

Leonard

[Antonio]

Paulo, Thanks for the explanation about why "s" use is more correct
than "z". Convincing. (anyway no matter how I write it down I always
pronounce sanfona because i am brazil born and never learned to
pronounce spanish z correctly).
Wolodymyrm, thanks for your comments. I knew the article about
santalices - but i was refering to others - which alsohaveitandno
relation to lira organizzata. I would have thought that the hollow in
the sound box is enoght to compensate different inside/outside
pressure. It sounds as apossible explanation.

[Wolodymyr Smishkewych]

No Problem, Antonio.
Actually, I guess I wasn't clear about the Santalices article and what the connection is to the hole. I mentioned the reason as connected to the polemic regarding the "camps" of zanfona players, and basically Julio's article mentions only one point in the article: it is that the instrument with the hole was the model or template (i.e. "patrón") for the instruments produced in the Lugo workshops that were influenced by that very instrument. So, the theory goes, the instrument was recreated--large size, side hole--and all.

However, to counter my own argument in this case, I'm trying to remember if any of the other models I've seen from the peninsula that are unrelated to the Santalices instrument by "lineage" have this same hole. If anyone recalls this as the case, give a shout...

Ate breve,
Vlad