ARI's Gary Hull lies and romanticizes a thug
Paw1015
"Homer's Iliad and Odyssey were essential to a
Greek's education. And due in large part to Homer's
sense of life, Greek children developed the conviction
that a life like that of Achilles or Odysseus is the
to-be-expected. Homer, along with other artists,
instilled the sense that one should worship and
emulate man excelling. This ennobling view of man
can also be seen in the fact that there was no
landscape painting until the Hellenistic era (c. 323 bc)."
What I object to is Hull praising ancient Greece
as ennobling because "a life like that of Achilles
or Odysseus is the to-be-expected." How nice.
I wonder, has Mr. Hull ever read the Iliad or the
Odyssey? I find it hard to believe anyone could
ever view the actions of Achilles as "ennobling,"
or that of any of the Achean heroes. First of all,
for a good portion of the war, Achilles hangs out
on his ships "weeping aloud" and sulking because
Agamemnon took away one of his favorite cucubines
which he had enslaved after her husband was killed.
After being persuaded by his mother, Thetis, and
bribed by a large gift of property and seven beautiful
Lesbians, he does rejoin the war. He is absolutely
vicious. He takes no prisoners, and delights in all
sorts of cruelty. After his lover Patroclas is killed,
he goes on a rampage. When he finally avenges
Patroclus by killing Hector, he cheats by letting
a god block the spears that would have killed him.
Hector's dying request was that Achilles not
desecrate his body in front of his parents, but Hull's
"noble" and "excelling" hero taunted the dying Hector
by saying that he would feed drag his body behind
his chariot and then feed it to the dogs.
-----
While it is true they do have feasts and sports, Hull
is wrong (may I say lying, I can't imagine he hasn't
read the Iliad or has forgotten such a large part of it)
when he says there is no "woe or lamenting." The
exact quote from the article is:
"Even at Greek funerals there was no funeral dirge,
woe, and lamenting. There were feasts and sports,
e.g., wrestling, foot races, chariot races, boxing,
archery."
But the Iliad again and again contradicts Hull:
"Then they laid it on a bier and covered it with a
linen cloth from head to foot, and over this they
laid a fair white robe. Thus all night long did the
_Myrmidons gather round Achilles to mourn
Patroclus._"
"As a father mourns when he is burning the bones
of his bridegroom son whose death has wrung the
hearts of his parents, even so did Achilles mourn
while burning the body of his comrade, pacing
round the bier with piteous groaning and
lamentation."
Even the horses were in grief at the funeral of
Patroclus: "See how they stand weeping here, with
their manes trailing on the ground in the extremity
of their sorrow."
After the funeral "Achilles still wept for Patroclus
thinking of his dear comrade, and sleep, before
whom all things bow, could take no hold upon him.
This way and that did he turn as he yearned after
the might and manfulness of Patroclus; he thought
of all they had done together, and all they had gone
through both on the field of battle and on the waves
of the weary sea. As he dwelt on these things he wept
bitterly and lay now on his side, now on his back, and
now face downwards, till at last he rose and went out
as one distraught to wander upon the seashore."
Here is a description of the funeral of Hector:
"Nine days long did they bring in great heaps wood, and
on the morning of the tenth day with _many tears_ they
took trave Hector forth, laid his dead body upon the
summit of the pile, and set the fire thereto. Then when
the child of morning rosy-fingered dawn appeared on
the eleventh day, the people again assembled, round
the pyre of mighty Hector. When they were got together,
they first quenched the fire with wine wherever it was
burning, and then his brothers and comrades with _many
a bitter tear_ gathered his white bones, wrapped them in
soft robes of purple, and laid them in a golden urn, which
they placed in a grave and covered over with large stones
set close together."
Hull's article is yet another example of shoddy Objectivist
scholarship. I only saw a few paragraphs of Hull's article
and a found a *glaring* factual error. That is why REAL
scholars publish in peer reviewed journals, and ignore the
"Intellectual Activist."
Gregory Weston
Stephen Grossman
<paw...@aol.comNOSPAM> wrote:
> What I object to is Hull praising ancient Greece
> as ennobling because "a life like that of Achilles
> or Odysseus is the to-be-expected." How nice.
> I wonder, has Mr. Hull ever read the Iliad or the
> Odyssey? I find it hard to believe anyone could
> ever view the actions of Achilles as "ennobling,"
> or that of any of the Achean heroes.
youre a nihilist intent on destroying values (whatever the narrow merits
of your scholarship)
Reason is man's basic means of survival. AYN RAND
Elegant and prosperous Californians. DAVID GULBRAA
Goldfinger's Oddjob as manager.
Hera, Medea and Jocasta walk into a bar...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tracking Marxist dialectical revolution: ZigZag
Radically systematic radical metaphysics: Existence 2
http://home.att.net/~sdgross
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Stephen Grossman Fairhaven, MA, USA sdg...@att.net
Paw1015
Grossman writes:
>youre a nihilist intent on destroying values
You seem to be the nihilist, as far as grammer is concerned.
The fact that I see that no one was bothered to challenge
is that Gary Hull has put into print a huge, glaring falsehood.
I also see no one has bothered to defend that warmongering,
vicious brute Achilles. If there is a hero in the Iliad it is
Hector, IMO.
>(whatever the narrow merits of your scholarship)
Is not making up evidence off the top of my head, and only
writing TRUE things only a "narrow merit of scholarship"
in Objectivist philosophy? That would explain a lot. Good
news for Objectivists then, the Nobel Prize committee has
ruled that the serial liar Rigoberto Menchu, who won a
Nobel Peace Prize for her pile of lies, gets to keep it now
that it even though her many, many lies were recently
exposed by a NYT reporter.
Gregory Weston
http://members.aol.com/gregweston
Stephen Grossman
<paw...@aol.com> wrote:
> >youre a nihilist intent on destroying values
>
> You seem to be the nihilist, as far as grammer is concerned.
What about the color of my socks?
>
> The fact that I see that no one was bothered to challenge
> is that Gary Hull has put into print a huge, glaring falsehood.
so huge its not worth your time to identify it?
>
> Is not making up evidence off the top of my head
nor from anywhere
Lavos999
>In article <19981220211158...@ng111.aol.com>, Paw1015
><paw...@aol.com> wrote:
[snip]
>> The fact that I see that no one was bothered to challenge
>> is that Gary Hull has put into print a huge, glaring falsehood.
>
>so huge its not worth your time to identify it?
He *did* identify it, and even cited specific examples at the beginning of the
thread. Perhaps you should try reading his articles *before* posting a
response.
------------------------------------
The Red New Deal with a Soviet seal
Endorsed by a Moscow hand
The strange result of a foreign cult
In a liberty-loving land.
Stephen Grossman
<lavo...@aol.comSPAMKILL> wrote:
> Stephen Grossman <sdg...@att.net> wrote:
>
> >In article <19981220211158...@ng111.aol.com>, Paw1015
> ><paw...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >> The fact that I see that no one was bothered to challenge
> >> is that Gary Hull has put into print a huge, glaring falsehood.
> >
> >so huge its not worth your time to identify it?
>
> He *did* identify it, and even cited specific examples at the beginning o
> f the
> thread. Perhaps you should try reading his articles *before* posting a
> response.
And you too think it not worth your time to identify it.
> ------------------------------------
>
> The Red New Deal with a Soviet seal
> Endorsed by a Moscow hand
> The strange result of a foreign cult
> In a liberty-loving land.
Reason is man's basic means of survival. AYN RAND