What about leitmotifs?
...Newbie...
developed and fit together?
N.
Richard Partridge
following:
> Does anyone know of a book that explains how all the Ring's leitmotifs are
> developed and fit together?
>
> N.
>
>
This isn't a book, but I think you'd find it helpful. It's a web site that
was mentioned here several years ago. It sets forth many of the themes in
the "Ring," and discusses them:
http://allenbdunningmd.com/RingThemes.htm
Dick Partridge
...Newbie...
Thanks for this. I get being told that there isn't a scheme that all fits
them together, that they can't be analysed. But surely they all do!
N.
Bert Coules
to write and record a lengthy analysis of the motifs and their
relationships, with examples (some of them specially recorded) taken from
the complete cycle. It was issued on LPs as part of the Ring box set.
It's well done, enlightening and not at all dry.
It's now available as a two-CD set:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Wagner-Introduction-Nibelungen-Wiener-Philharmoniker/dp/B00000424H/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1257730996&sr=8-2.
Bert
...Newbie...
ones. I'm worried that Wagner made a mistake in not making them conencted. I
think he has a problem at the end of Rhiengold, and has to use a theme that
never fits with anything else. The one where the Rainbow takes them to
Walhalle. I can't see that it belongs. Does Deryck Cooke know this answer? I
will have to hear his programme.
Thank you again.
N.
Richard Partridge
following:
> Thank you for this. I'm worried about some of the motifs, even the famous
As far as I know, Wagner never put names on the themes and did not tell us
what they were supposed to signify. That was left to later commentators, so
of course there is some disagreement. It's also unclear what should be
considered a leitmotiv and what is simply the music that goes with that part
of the opera. One example is the Rainbow theme, which you mentioned. It
appears only in that one place. So is it a leitmotiv? The Valhalla theme,
by contrast, appears dozens of times throughout the operas. Another example
is the music that goes with the very last scene, in which Br�nnhilde calls
for a funeral pyre to be built. Then there's the music we hear when Donner
calls the clouds together. I think it appears only in one other place: the
prelude to the first Act of The Valkyrie. So should that be considered a
theme? I guess is should be, since it does appear in two places.
Dick Partridge
acdouglas
> I'm worried about some of the motifs, even the famous
> ones. I'm worried that Wagner made a mistake in not making them conencted.
> I think he has a problem at the end of Rhiengold, and has to use a theme
> that never fits with anything else. The one where the Rainbow takes them to
> Walhalle. I can't see that it belongs.
Rest easy, Newbie. Wagner *never* makes mistakes of that sort. If you
perceive it as a mistake, the mistake is yours, not Wagner's; a mistake that
only by repeated exposure and study you'll eventually be able to set right
for yourself.
---
ACD
http://www.soundsandfury.com/
Mike Scott Rohan
We were all "newbies" once, and if we've any humility we should know
we still are, in many ways -- always discovering new things. Surely
it's better to inform than patronize?
So, ignoring the tone of that reply, Newbie, your problem is that
you've absorbed a common mistake, in thinking of the motifs as
separate and distinct objects, with limited scope and functions,
popping up like calling cards -- and, consequently, Wagner's
compositional method as a sort of thematic knitting. There is no
"scheme to fit them all together"; it wouldn't be possible -- it's the
music itself. They don't join up, they flow and they evolve, in the
most amazing complexity, beyond the scope of any commentary. Sometimes
they reappear in the most subtle echoes and fragments; listen to
Hunding's entry, for example -- you will hear a tiny snippet of the
giants' motif at one point. It's a subtle effect, and mconveys more
than mere words -- but I'd guess that Wagner is relating one lustful
overbearing oaf to another, and, more significantly, someone else who
buys and sells love, always a sin in Wagner.
Some motifs, though, particularly in Rheingold, where the music (and
the world) are still in a primal state, are introduced as more or less
purely descriptive, with less apparent relation to others -- although
if you delve deeper you can often find some echo or consonance. The
Rainbow Bridge is more of this type. Why should it lead anywhere? It
leads to Valhalla, and Valhalla is a dead end.
Cheers,
Mike
Mike Scott Rohan
> When Decca's Solti Ring was first released, they commissioned Deryck Cooke
> to write and record a lengthy analysis of the motifs and their
> relationships, with examples (some of them specially recorded) taken from
> the complete cycle. It was issued on LPs as part of the Ring box set.
> It's well done, enlightening and not at all dry.
>
>
> Bert
I'd endorse this also, though it only gives you a partial picture. But
what doesn't? Except the score itself. Cooke gives you the key.
Cheers,
Mike
wagnerfan
message
news:b893ee0c-fed0-4b51...@p19g2000vbq.googlegroups.com...
Cheers,
Mike
I always had a problem with the Cooke Decca analysis being called an
"introduction' to the Ring. Its really not that at all for a novice - it
doesn't go over the story and the sources - it really is an "analysis" of
the Ring motives and how they relate to each other. Cooke was planning on
writing an exhaustive analysis of the Ring motives unfortunately not to be
due to his death. Wagner fan
Bert Coules
> I always had a problem with the Cooke Decca analysis being called an
> "introduction' to the Ring. Its really not that at all for a novice - it
> doesn't go over the story and the sources...
A fair point, and the set is probably mistitled. Do you think, though,
there is, or was, a market - or a need? - for a set which tells the plot and
points out what to listen for?
Bert
wagnerfan
"Bert Coules" <ma...@bertcoules.co.uk> wrote in message
news:s66dnZswusCI72XX...@brightview.co.uk...
Actually there was an LP that did just that - it came with the original LP
issue of the 1953 RAI Ring in 1973 and told the story of the Ring from start
to finish with musical examples taken from the set. Of course it was not
particularly extensive but did a good job for a novice. Wagner fan
acdouglas
> On Nov 9, 4:15 pm, "acdouglas" <acdoug...@acdouglas.com> wrote:
>
>> "...Newbie..." <New...@TVdinners.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm worried about some of the motifs, even the famous
>>> ones. I'm worried that Wagner made a mistake in not making them
>>> conencted. I think he has a problem at the end of Rhiengold, and has to
>>> use a theme that never fits with anything else. The one where the Rainbow
>>> takes them to Walhalle. I can't see that it belongs.
>>
>> Rest easy, Newbie. Wagner *never* makes mistakes of that sort. If you
>> perceive it as a mistake, the mistake is yours, not Wagner's; a mistake
>> that only by repeated exposure and study you'll eventually be able to set
>> right for yourself.
>>
> We were all "newbies" once, and if we've any humility we should know we
> still are, in many ways -- always discovering new things. Surely it's
> better to inform than patronize?
Don't dare to presume to chide me, sir. I'm always ready to help newbies when
*they* show the proper humility. But when a rank newbie has the unmitigated
chutzpah to assume that what he can't understand or makes no sense to him is
because *Wagner* made a mistake, then a different approach is required the
first step of which is to make the newbie aware in the most in-his-face way
that the fault is his, not Wagner's.
Peter T. Daniels
The CD booklet, unfortunately, gives only the music examples; the LP
booklet included the full text of the lecture. Ex. 56 (in track 10 of
disk 1) is entitled "The Ring (changing to Valhalla)." Isn't the
Rainbow Bridge (which is not given as a music example) the tune of the
Valhalla motif sung out over the full orchestra on solo trumpet? One
of the great moments of the entire work.
wagnerfan
news:a4a89f6f-9a0f-433c...@15g2000yqy.googlegroups.com...
No it isn't that. Its a rising and falling transformation of the original
Nature motive heard at the beginning of Rheingold. It is never repeated
again in that specific variation. Wagner fan
Peter T. Daniels
> "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote in messagenews:a4a89f6f-9a0f-433c...@15g2000yqy.googlegroups.com...
So that would be the answer to OP's question.
If you got proper newsreader software, you wouldn't have to use that
very bizarre quoting non-style.
wagnerfan
> Valhalla motif sung out over the full orchestra on solo trumpet? One
> of the great moments of the entire work.
>
> "Isn't the
> Rainbow Bridge (which is not given as a music example) the tune of the
> Valhalla motif sung out over the full orchestra on solo trumpet"
>
> No it isn't that. Its a rising and falling transformation of the original
> Nature motive heard at the beginning of Rheingold. It is never repeated
> again in that specific variation. Wagner fan-
So that would be the answer to OP's question.
If you got proper newsreader software, you wouldn't have to use that
very bizarre quoting non-style.
"the LP
> booklet included the full text of the lecture. Ex. 56 (in track 10 of
> disk 1) is entitled "The Ring (changing to Valhalla)." Isn't the
> Rainbow Bridge (which is not given as a music example) "
Actually I have the original booklet that came with the LP set and the
Rainbow Bridge motive is specifically illustrated and discussed - its on
page 9 ex. 19 and the description I gave is almost Cookes own. So why not
drop the attitude until you get your own facts right??? Don't you think that
would be a good idea????? Wagner Fan
Mike Scott Rohan
>
> Don't dare to presume to chide me, sir.
Why shouldn't I, when you presume exactly that yourself, and with less
cause?
> I'm always ready to help newbies when
> *they* show the proper humility. But when a rank newbie has the unmitigated
> chutzpah to assume that what he can't understand or makes no sense to him is
> because *Wagner* made a mistake, then a different approach is required the
> first step of which is to make the newbie aware in the most in-his-face way
> that the fault is his, not Wagner's.
I think this says more about you than I possibly could. I have this
mental vision of a mole in outsize jackboots....
Cheers,
Mike
Mike Scott Rohan
>
> I always had a problem with the Cooke Decca analysis being called an
> "introduction' to the Ring. Its really not that at all for a novice - it
> doesn't go over the story and the sources - it really is an "analysis" of
> the Ring motives and how they relate to each other. Cooke was planning on
> writing an exhaustive analysis of the Ring motives unfortunately not to be
> due to his death. Wagner fan
Yes, I do see what you mean, but what else can one call it? It is an
introduction, not exactly to the Ring itself, but to how the music
works. And that, I think, is more valuable -- particularly in recorded
form. When the Cooke set was made, LPs were relatively much more
expensive than they are now; so one put on them only what needed to be
there. The story and the sources could be covered in print, which is
why Cooke began "I Saw The World End". As you say, its second half
would have been a musical analysis, but still, I think, not a complete
one. Perhaps something different could be produced now, multi-media
and interactive, on the lines of Monte Stone's brilliant Ringdisc,
only more so.
Anyhow, the Cooke is still a brilliant creation; it did a vast amount
for me!
Cheers,
Mike
...Newbie...
>Its a rising and falling transformation of the
> original Nature motive heard at the beginning of Rheingold. It is
> never repeated again in that specific variation. Wagner fan
Thank you for writing again. But I cannot beklieve this. I have now seen a
book by JK. Holman where he says (page is 127) that this rainbow bridge idea
"grows directly out of 2 - Nature and 3 - Rhine to close the first Ring
opera"
But this has to be wrong. Surely! This rainbow theme is a chord spread out,
yes, but where the notes are different and there are extra notes not in the
Nature or Rhine shapes. Lots of notes! and new rhythms! The big thing for me
is the Nature and Rhine sounds have the chotrd's middle note up in the top
at the end when the theme stops. Its a definite sound! And this happens in
other themes in the operas as well. But this sound is not there in the sound
of the Rainbow! I really think people are saying this theme is conected when
it's not! I don't want to seem rude when everyone loves Wagner, so much, and
he is such a good composer anyway, but surely this is not a real conection!
Surely!
Thank you people, who may have some more ideas.
N.
wagnerfan
Cheers,
Mike
Also "I Saw the World End' is one of the really great books on the Wagner
operas and their sources - well written and engrossing when it could have
been dry as dust. .Wagner fan
Peter T. Daniels
> "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote in messagenews:91a6c066-ce0d-4b78...@d5g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
Then why didn't you answer OP's question in the first place? There
would have been no thread of recriminations if you had.
Why didn't you simply quote Cooke's description, since OP asked
specifically about what he had to say?
And you _still_ need to get proper software. This _is_ the 21st
century, you know.
wagnerfan
"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:81ecf3ec-c472-45d4...@d10g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
Why, why why????Just can't admit you got it wrong, can you???? Well into
the plonk file you go!!!! Wagner Fan
Mike Scott Rohan
browser, a new reference to an audiobook on Wagner's Ring motifs,
narrated by Sir John Tomlinson...
It's a German product, Englished. The ad gives a list of recorded
exemplars, but from this it looks just like a list of motifs, though,
with nothing in particular about their evolution and development a la
Cooke. I'll try to stick the URL below, but this is new software I'm
using, so if it doesn't appear I'll try to include it next posting.
Cheers,
Mike
Mike Scott Rohan
OK, no more fussy stuff -- that url is, if I've got it right,
www.auricula.de/wagner-ring-motifs.
As regards motif surveys, there's the ancient one with the Pearl
release of the old EMI "complete" set -- not at all bad, though the
introductory voices, possibly the conductor's, are hilariously plummy.
Cheers,
Mike
>
> Cheers,
>
> Mike
Derrick Everett
The Rainbow Bridge is a natural phenomenon and therefore it is
appropriate that its theme (Holman #39, Newman #47, Deryck Cooke #19 - in
track 4 of disc 1) should be derived from the basic Nature motive (Holman
#2, Newman #1, Deryck Cooke #5).
Both of these themes are arpeggios, that is, "a chord spread out" but the
motive of the Rainbow Bridge (in D flat major, the key associated with
Valhalla throughout the tetralogy), is more developed than the Nature
motive (in E flat major): hence its new rhythms. Note how the music of
'Das Rheingold' develops from very simple musical ideas such as the
Nature Motive into progressively more complex ideas, a development that
reflects the process of evolution as it occurs in nature.
In Wagner's sketches for 'Das Rheingold', the original version of the
Rainbow Bridge had four additional bars that the composer later removed
as he reworked the music of the final scene. In the sketch (dated 14
January 1854) the Rainbow Bridge theme is marked for "trombones"; later
it was scored for tubas, supported by bass clarinet, bassoons, bass
trumpet and contrabass trombone.
--
Derrick Everett
====== Writing from 59°54'N 10°37'E =======
http://www.monsalvat.no/index.htm
http://www.monsalvat.no/wagnerfaq.htm
strauss...@gmail.com
<mike.scott.ro...@asgardpublishing.co.uk> wrote:
> I think this says more about you than I possibly could. I have this
> mental vision of a mole in outsize jackboots....
Call me corrupted by American pop culture, but I got the image of Eric
Cartman.
-lms
Arnold@large.com Uncle Arnold
> In Wagner's sketches for 'Das Rheingold', the original version of the
> Rainbow Bridge had four additional bars that the composer later
> removed as he reworked the music of the final scene.
This is of course completely untrue. Our Resident Expert has it all
confused: Wagner actually *added* four bars to the Rainbow Bridge's second
appearance when he revised the sketch, giving the shape an extra sequence
that wasn't in that statement before.
Puh.
A.
Richard Partridge
following:
Just what we needed. Another contributor whose rudeness vies with that of
ACD.
Dick Partridge
Arnold@large.com Uncle Arnold
Where I come from, 'rudeness' is telling garbage to beginners in
narcissistically self-confident tones.
A.
Richard Partridge
following:
Do they have dictionaries where you come from?
Dick Partridge
Arnold@large.com Uncle Arnold
Admission of defeat noted.
A.
Mike Scott Rohan
Since when did anybody sensible think in terms of defeat or victory in
a petty matter like this? ACD excepted, of course, if you aren't he.
For your information and education, though, there are many more polite
ways of correcting a small slip -- if slip it is, as I haven't had a
chance to check it yet. Your manner here simply suggests you get a
bigger kick out of being offensive than out of the actual subject in
question, and that, let's face it, makes you look more foolish than
your intended target. If you really are so overwhelmingly
knowledgeable, why should you need to hit folk over the head with it?
You could simply stun us amicably and helpfully. Instead the noise of
hammering betrays a ramshackle ego being propped up,
Mike
@isp.studenten.net Herman van der Woude
Mike Scott Rohan wrote on 29-11-2009 as follows:
[snip]
> Since when did anybody sensible think in terms of defeat or victory in
> a petty matter like this? ACD excepted, of course, if you aren't he.
>
> For your information and education, though, there are many more polite
> ways of correcting a small slip -- if slip it is, as I haven't had a
> chance to check it yet. Your manner here simply suggests you get a
> bigger kick out of being offensive than out of the actual subject in
> question, and that, let's face it, makes you look more foolish than
> your intended target. If you really are so overwhelmingly
> knowledgeable, why should you need to hit folk over the head with it?
> You could simply stun us amicably and helpfully. Instead the noise of
> hammering betrays a ramshackle ego being propped up,
>
> Mike
This "Uncle Arnold" is not a person I could hold for a serious
contributor to this discussion, and most certainly not in the way he
did. So I killfiled him. He was 'active' (?) in that other newsgroup,
news:rec.music.classical, in which too many egocentered, pre-adolescant
minds seem to dwell...
Anyway, I am glad to see you back in our 'own' Wagner group!
--
Met vriendelijke groet,
Cheers!
Herman van der Woude