I wonder if anyone in this forum has ever come across the following
from

http://www.mediaquest.co.uk/awagner.html

"The composer, artist, media consultant and music producer, Adrian
Wagner is the great-great grandson of the famous nineteenth-century
Grail opera composer, Richard Wagner..."

Personally I am very sceptical about this claim, but frankly I have no
proof either pro or con?

Thanks

It's a con.

--
Derrick Everett   (deverett at c2i.net)
==== Writing from  59°54'N 10°36'E ====
http://home.c2i.net/monsalvat/index.htm

I guess we never see a birth-certificate to know for sure. Reading
these 3 quotes makes me doubt:

quote:
 In 1982, I started research into the Grail Tradition. My quest
started with a fresh, new look at the work of my great, great
grandfather, Richard Wagner's opera 'Parsifal'. I had heard that he
started writing the Opera at Nanteos House, Aberystwyth - the place
where the 'Nanteos Cup' was kept.

quote:
Just over one hundred years later I was reading a book entitled The
Holy Blood and the Holy Grail when I came upon an early paragraph
which related that Richard Wagner had visited the little village of
Rennes-Le-Château in the Pyrenees before he wrote his last opera,
Parsifal.

quote:
From the Old Testament stories and related older accounts, we learn
the origins of the Grail and it's symbolism. One of the first of these
is the 'Cross within the Circle' or the 'Mark of Cain'. The creation
stories, like Genesis, Enuma Elish and The Epic of Gilgamesh,
chronicle a visitation by a race of Gods called Anunnaki who had
intermingled with the earthly people to create a race which we call
Homo Sapiens, as pointed out in the books of Zecharia  Sitchin.
end of quote.

Wagner wrote aboiut the Grail in 1848 in The Wibelungen long before
Rennes-Le-Château became in, I doubt whether he travelled to Wales
before then, Zecharia  Sitchin is well known for his fantastic
speculations.

The Nanteos Cup is a wooden cup that was dug up near his home at Nanteos
by the eccentric poet George Powell (1842-1882).  Although Powell believed
that the cup was the Holy Grail, more recently it has been dated to the
14th century.

Powell does indeed have a Wagnerian connection.  Powell attended the
Bayreuth Festival of 1876 and wrote home that he was going to dine at
Wahnfried, although, as far as I have been able to establish, he is never
mentioned in anything written by Richard or Cosima Wagner.  The deaths of
Powell and, a few months later, Wagner, were linked in a poem by Powell's
friend, Swinburne.

That's where he met Elvis, of course.

--
Derrick Everett   (deverett at c2i.net)
==== Writing from  59°54'N 10°36'E ====
http://home.c2i.net/monsalvat/index.htm

The message <pan.2003.04.30.20.59.43.68...@c2i.net>
from "Derrick Everett" <dever...@c2i.net> contains these words:

That I can't say, but I do remember hearing about somebody of this name
living in the Oxford area when I did, in the early 1980s, and getting
into the papers with his claim. I also remember some kind of legal
dispute involving him hitting the papers, over the purchase of a
synthesizer, I believe. I'd be extremely reluctant to report the facts
after so long, lest I do him an injustice, but it did strike me at the
time that it could equally well have involved his purported ancestor!

Cheers,

Mike

--
mike.scott.ro...@asgard.zetnet.co.uk

Mike Scott Rohan <mike.scott.ro...@asgard.zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message <news:2003050119295171187@asgard.zetnet.co.uk>...

Surely, we should not pose injustice on anyone. But may everyone claim
to have a linage to Wagner, just because he has musical talent, which
Adrian undoubtly has?
Thanks to Derrick commenting  on quote one, it  reveals some insight
where the connection might have come from?
I am doubtful as expressed in quote 3, David Icke would certainly say
that AW has joined up with L. Gardeners grail claims and with Z.
Sitchin. See Davids site for more. They all connect to
Rennes-Le-Château popularised by the book The Holy Blood and the Holy
Grail. That book links to the troyan origin of the Franks just the
same way as Wagner in The Wibelungen, coincidence ? This further
fosters  Dagoberts Revenge theory for Lady Di`s demise (at the site of
ancient temple of goddess  Diana at Paris). Is it all just for the
cash, I wonder if one can make a living out of that?
Perhaps I should post this at " Sitchin is not novel. He is part of
UFO-religious cults." at
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewforum.php?f=10&sid=db5371aa016f....

A book which has been shown to have been based, in large part, on an
elaborate hoax.

--
Derrick Everett   (deverett at c2i.net)
==== Writing from  59°54'N 10°36'E ====
http://home.c2i.net/monsalvat/index.htm

 The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail.

elaborate hoax.

Do you have a link where someone analyzed this hoax in detail?

Thanks

The hoax is now well-documented. There is a book which contains a detailed
and (for Henry Lincoln) devastating analysis of how Lincoln has been
fooled: "The Unknown Treasure: The Priory of Sion Fraud and the Spiritual
Treasure of Rennes-le-Château", Houston, TX: NorthStar, 1998.  He writes:

"In recent years, a great deal of information has been published in books
like 'Holy Blood, Holy Grail' alleging that the Holy Grail actually refers
to a bloodline descended from Jesus. By this account Jesus and Mary
Magdalene produced offspring, and their descendants gave rise to the
Merovingian dynasty, which ruled France from 476 to 750 A.D. Well-
intentioned readers and even authors have been deceived by this story and
have mistaken it for the revelation of a suppressed history. Unfortunately
the only thing that has been suppressed is the truth."

"The Grail is not a bloodline. This false story originated in reams of
fraudulent documents created by an extreme right-wing French sect. The
group responsible for these fictions, calling itself the 'Priory of Sion'
and claiming an ancient esoteric lineage, has kept its own authentic
history carefully hidden. How it constructed its fraud has not been
revealed. It is long past time for the light of truth to reveal the
'Priory of Sion' and the fictional bloodline it has promoted for what they
are really are -- a fraud. The background of this group reveals its actual
motives and sources of information."

There is a summary of Richardson's analysis here:

< http://www.alpheus.org/html/articles/esoteric_history/richardson1.html >

Another investigator, who has corresponded with Lincoln and examined the
evidence related to Lincoln's expanding claims about Rennes-le-Château,
presents a wealth of diverse material related to the case here:

< http://smithpp0.tripod.com/psp/idx.html >

--
Derrick Everett   (deverett at c2i.net)
==== Writing from  59°54'N 10°36'E ====
http://home.c2i.net/monsalvat/index.htm

That sentence should have begun:

"There is a book by Robert Richardson which contains a detailed and (for
Henry Lincoln) devastating analysis ..."

Sorry.

--
Derrick Everett   (deverett at c2i.net)
==== Writing from  59°54'N 10°36'E ====
http://home.c2i.net/monsalvat/index.htm

Thanks for the links and the content, I have always felt uneasy to
accept this book as such, I found it weary to read. Partially since I
found another explanation of the grail. If you follow me to
http://templarchronicle.homestead.com/cauldron.html
you get a physical evidence of the grail  on top, go to the bottom of
site and enter Site Map
and bottom again to
Rennes-le-Chateau
enter
Mountain of Salvation
go to bottom read
quote
"Also, we see in these definitions, such as "hinge-point," the "Place
of Crossing" of the Sumerians. Nibiru, the planet of Crossing, Nippur,
the place of Crossing, where the Duranki was Kept, and the Hebrews,
people of the Crossing.
end of quote.
again go back and and enter the link above
Tomb of God,...
go near to the end to read:
quote
"The cauldron of the sages was a relic won as a trophy, when the
Enlilites subdued a community of Serpent (and Cow-Goddess) worshippers
near Carchemish, one of the earliest known settlements. This bowl was
subsequently placed, we are told, in a crypt underneath the holy of
holies in the central temple of Enlil at Nippur. We shall deal with
this more in depth, below. This, according to history, and according
to the writings of Zecharia Sitchin, is where the "Bond- Heaven-Earth"
or DurAnKi was located. This is the Secret of the Grail, by the way.
The merging of Heaven and Earth."
end of quote

This seems to be what Sitchin found out and is modelling his UFO
claims upon. A. Wagner seems to follow that direction. It is partially
based upon truth, but diverting into a new-age cult.
 Read the truth at
www.geocities.com/sa_ga_g
and
http://www.soulkingdom.net/commentpage.htm

I'm not on my home ground here.  

But I don't think it's especially useful to think of the Holy Grail as
a historical object.  (It's like people who come up with
"rationalistic" explanations of the parting of the Red Sea in
_Exodus_, by postulating freak earthquake events, or freakish tides
due to the moon's unusual proximity that year, or whatever.  When in
fact it's simply a legend, a story that needs explaining in cultural,
story-creating terms, not in geological terms.)

The holy grail is also a legend.  As I understand it, it's not even
based on the original Biblical legend, but a later addition that draws
on pre-Christian sources.  The New Testament mentions two important
cups, I think, and these have provided a sort of approximate hook for
connecting non-Christian legends to the basic Christian story.

There's:
(1) The cup used at the Last Supper (Matthew 26:26-29, mentioned also
in Mark, Luke and John), which can give people energy, and which
people should drink of, in remembrance of Jesus (that's the most
literal reading of Jesus' words, which have a particular cup as their
subject; however most people don't really think Jesus meant that
specific cup);
(2)  There's the metaphorical cup that Jesus mentions at Gethsemene
(Matthew 26: 39 and 41, mentioned also in Mark, Luke and John), when
he asks YHWH to "take this cup away from me".  Even though it's only a
metaphorical cup, a lot of medieval and Rennaissance paintings put an
actual cup into the painting when they depict this scene, held by one
of the really important angels. (I forget which one).

But the holy grail is a different mythical cup, and it's a later
legend than those collected in the New Testament.  It's the cup in
which Joseph of Arimathea supposedly collected Jesus's blood after the
centurion stuck him in the side.  Presumably Joseph of Arimathea must
have done this when he turned up after Jesus was taken down from the
crucifix, because all the New Testament accounts that mention Joseph
of Arimathea say he turned up after Jesus died (leaving aside the
ambiguity in John as to whether Jesus was dead at all).

If the holy grail isn't a Biblical legend, where does it come from?  

I'd suggest two main sources.  First, the cup of Amalthea, the
legendary cornucopia, which pours out the food of the (classical) gods
in limitless profusion; people partake of the cup and are replenished
on non-earthly food. (I wonder if the coincidence of names,
Amalthea/Arimathea, helped link the legend of this cup, the
cornucopia, to the legend of Joseph of Arimathea.  But I'm not saying
it's so, just raising the possibility.)

Second, the cauldron of Bran and similar Celtic objects that had a
similar legendary role.  I'm sure Derrick has more information at his
fingertips than I would find with a search, on the Celtic sources of
the holy grail myth.

In short, the holy grail is just one more example of Christianity
taking over the pre-existing myths, religious holidays and religious
symbols of other cultures.  So there never was one holy grail; as a
Christian myth it seems to have been invented somewhere between 600
and 1,000 years after the Crucifixion.

So the holy grail isn't "lost", and can't be "found", because it's
just a story.  There are holy grails all over Italy - I've seen a
couple, and been invited to see plenty of others, but I decided to
spend my Euros on wine instead - and no doubt there are plenty of
other grails in other European countries. I also saw nails from the
holy cross and much else. There are at least seven extant holy spears
that I'm aware of.  And they all have an equal claim to authenticity,
as do the cups in the web sites you provided links for.

(We don't have many holy grails down New Zealand way, by the way; but
I do have a piece of wood from the original tekoteko of Ihenga, which
I think is even better.)

Sorry to be so bloody-mindedly pendantic and literal-minded (traits of
mine that rightly annoyed Simon W, who doesn't like Empirical
victories): but looking for a historical grail is just a complete
wrong turning, cul de sac, etc, if you're thinking about the grail's
significance.

It's a symbol.  

There's a lot to be said about what Wagner meant by that symbol.  (Not
much of it to be said by me at the moment, since I'm between thoughts
on that topic.)  But when you're trying to explore the way Wagner used
and intended the symbol, I'd suggest that you look in Wagner's essays,
and his obiter dicta as recorded by Cosima, as a first resort.  And
look into his reading as a second resort.  Rather than looking in a
lot of late 20th century bollocks about the Prieury de Wherever,
Chariots of the Gods, etc.

By the way, I note that you cited David Icke as a sort of authority.
I would only cite David Icke as someone who is moderately entertaining
but ... well... Did you know that David Icke claims that the British
royal family are actually not human, but reptilian beings from outer
space who eat human flesh?  I don't like the British royal family
either, but I'm not sure that David Icke is a fully reliable source.

Cheers!

Laon

Laon,

Sorry, I cannot answer in that lenght here. But you mention links I
provided and your reasoning about them is not according to their
content.
If you go to http://www.soulkingdom.net/commentpage.htm you find
clearly that it opposes David Ickes opinion on the bloodline of the
grail, shape shifting, reptilians. The site is historic. This does not
mean that David Icke is absolutely wrong about everything.
If you read http://www.geocities.com/sa_ga_g you would understand that
there is a mention of a grail in the Edda lays, that was lost in
battle and found as described as a physical piece of evidence, not a
myth. If you enjoy myths, it is up to you. But who says, Wagner did
not want reality and would not have been delighted by it?

If I read through the site that Derrick provided on the Priory of Sion
hoax, I feel astounded by the deep insight provided there - but when I
find that this is on a page connected to theosophs I wonder how
trustful this is again. So I am quite happy to come across an
artificat that can stand test and is not made up, I do not care about
any artificial graill. But knowing the real grail it becomes clearer
to me that this late  Priory of Sion is a hoax.

So if the Edda records a grail and the Bible records a grail and
archaeology  finds they stem both  from the same artifact, that is
fine with me and I see no need to know all the other grails or  spears
you mentioned, their mission has been fulfilled, if there was any.

Peace

The message <4f8f3beb.0305050610.46c8d...@posting.google.com>
from pra...@presto.net.au (Laon) contains these words:

Agreed. It's only one step removed from Erich von Daniken-style
nonsense, the lead-footed reductionism that insists Sindbad's Roc was a
helicopter, or the awesome Wandjina paintings are "obviously" astronauts
in space-suits (curiously like NASA c1969, instead of some much improved
interstellar tailoring!). It patronizes earlier peoples mightily,
suggesting that they were simply earthbound and superstitious, and not
possessed of any kind of creative imagination.

As you say, the Graal seems not to have been a Christian symbol at al,
even in a quite late form of the myth -- which by then had already
incorporated both chivalric elements and Parsifal himself -- but a stone
which somehow provided infinite plenty, another of a familiar class of
supernatural images -- including those you cite, Bran's cauldron (and a
number of others) and the cornucopia, but also the quern Grotte and the
Sampo, and the like. If one must look for a rationale, it may also have
derived from early animist cults based on sacred rocks, which we do know
existed.

Especially as most of it has been exposed as thoroughly testicular --
Herr Erich von Sterich repeatedly, a shifty ex-hotel manager who wrote
his second book in jail, not for tax reasons, as he claims now, but for
embezzling the takings, and who has been shown up as a deliberate liar
in several instances.

Especially as the daft turquoise-robed bugger appears to have derived
his ideas from a singularly uninspired TV SF series called "V". Not just
doolally, but unoriginally so.

Personally I do rather like the Royal Family, both in themselves (the
Divine Average, far more so than most rulers) and as heads of state a
lot safer and more tyranny-proof than President (or Comrade, or Fuhrer)
Stork, or whichever specimen of politician is whoring after power next
-- and, let's face it, because anyone Rupert Murdoch hates is bound to
be good for Britain and worthwhile generally. And Prince Charles pays
attention to the arts, and even likes opera in a mild sort of way, more
than most politicos dare admit to in case the Sun savages them for it,
as they did over fairly small grants to Covent Garden and the ENO --
unleashing what can only be described as a screaming hymn of hate.
Royals come in handy for that sort of thing. So what if they are
carnivorous alien reptiles? We've had worse.

Cheers,

Mike

--
mike.scott.ro...@asgard.zetnet.co.uk

I've had a look at the sites sa_ga recommends.  The first one argues,
among lots of other things, that "Aryan" people are noble and more
spiritually advanced than other people.  I'd bother to get annoyed at
the tired old racist crap, if it weren't so entertainingly silly.

Silly?  Well, the site suggests that Aryans are nobler because they
live further north than other peoples, and so they get less sun.  And
the sun is bad for the pineal gland, you see, and the pineal gland is
the centre of psychic powers, etc.  That's why Aryans are, by and
large, more spiritually advanced.  The site suggested lots of other
stuff too, but my eyes keep glazing over when I tried to read it.

The other site reports a claim by a Professor Laurence Waddell
(actually a professor in the unrelated fields of chemistry and
pathology), that he dug up the Holy Grail: the site seems to take this
claim seriously.  I haven't read the whole site, since just the first
few paragraphs made my Crap-Detector over-heat, and started a small
fire.

But I do note that this Grail had supposedly been buried for 5,000
years at the time it was dug up.

That seems to mean that at the time Jesus supposedly used the grail at
the last supper it was actually buried underground, and had been
buried for the last 3,000 years, at that time.  And when the Eddas
allegedly refer to it (but I'd like to see a reference, with chapter
and verse, demonstrating a reference to a holy grail, or anything
resembling one, in the Eddas; in the meantime I doubt that any such
reference exists), it had been buried for around 4,000 years.

Look sa_ga, you shouldn't be taking this stuff seriously.  It's just
candy-floss.

Mike, on the other hand, makes a convincing case for the British
monarchy.  The argument that the Royal Family must be a good thing on
the grounds that Rupert Murdoch hates them, and anything that Murdoch
hates must be good, is particularly well calculated to appeal to my
own prejudices.  So ... cheers and a Loyal Toast to her Maj and her
eccentric son (not that I mind his eccentricity; I'll grant that's
kind of endearing), neither of whom are Reptiles from Outer Space.
Which is more than you can say for Murdoch.

And to veer back on-topic for a split second while talking things
Brittannic: Wagner's "Rule Brittania" overture is the most shocking
bilge.  Bad, bad, bad: Wagner may have produced the worst juvenilia of
any major composer.

Cheers!

Laon

Mike Scott Rohan <mike.scott.ro...@asgard.zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message <news:2003050616145271187@asgard.zetnet.co.uk>...

Pls excuse me, I do not favour reptilianism. Perhaps you like the
Reptilian Resitance Forum
 http://members2.boardhost.com/prouty/?966613953 .

Just a side note on the royals.In the Wibelungen
http://users.belgacom.net/wagnerlibrary/prose/wagwibel.htm#IDAGQWN
section The Welfen
Wagner mentions what modern conspiracy theorists like J. Coleman
followed up to be the origin of the present day royals.
They argue the Welfs became Guelphs and the House of Hanover and
Windsor.
Welf in german is a synonym for welpe or dog, in Wagners diction for
Hunding, in Edda times the wolf tribes who fought Sigfried. In fact
the scenario is somewhat Ickean, he uses reptilians as synonym for the
snake tribes, the associates of the wolves of Edda times. There is
indeed no bloodline for this as some grail researchers would want, but
the idea is not new and grown from history.

On 5/6/03 11:14 AM, Mike Scott Rohan, at
mike.scott.ro...@asgard.zetnet.co.uk, wrote the following:

[snip]

[snip]

I agree with that.  We Americans may yet see the day when we wish we had the
stabilizing infuence of a monarch (though I'm sure you couldn't get elected
to Congress on that platform).

I think the Australians would have made a mistake to cut themselves loose.

I think Prince Charles was right in his criticism of modern architecture.
Fashions in the arts come and go.  If we get tired of looking at a painting,
the museum can put it in the storeroom.  But buildings can't be hidden and
are there for a long time.

Dick Partridge

Laon,

You may find the reference to the Edda in the book entitled
The British Edda pp. 162 - 169 L.A.Waddell, London 1930
based on the different MSS of Codex Regius  by G. Neckel, Heidelberg 1914.
Hopefully your library has a copy. Good luck.

I support, more than his opinion, his right to voice an opinion. It's
refreshing to have a royal figure who's not afraid to open his mouth
about issues. Why should they be the only people in the whole country
to be muzzled? They're not likely to go about trying to abrogate the
rights of Parliament any longer.

The message <ca71138c.0305071018.5bc8e...@posting.google.com>
from sa_g...@yahoo.co.in (sa_g...@yahoo.co.in) contains these words:

No, that's been infiltrated by the deros.

Speaking as something of a historian, this is a load of ripe dingo's
kidneys, Wagner's theory included.

Cheers,

Mike

--
mike.scott.ro...@asgard.zetnet.co.uk

There is only one Codex Regius and it is in Reykjavik.  There is nothing
British about it.  The critical edition with English translation is edited
by Ursula Dronke and it is here on my desk.  Old Icelandic, anyone?

I found Waddell's twaddle amusing, especially the illustration in which a
character was making off with the Holy Grail which he was shown "wearing
as a hat".  I suppose that any helmet in any drawing could be the Holy
Grail.

--
Derrick Everett   (deverett at c2i.net)
==== Writing from  59°54'N 10°36'E ====
http://home.c2i.net/monsalvat/index.htm

Old Icelandic?  Sure...do you need something translated?

Message was that the Neckel edition was based on the Codex Regius.
There was no message that the original is not in Iceland, returned
from Denmark indeed.

Why did you not share the picture with the rest, knowing it is on
http://www.truthcampaign.ukf.net/mainpages/articles_frame.html
fourth picture from top in
The Origins of the Biblical Genesis
in Relation to David Icke's Version
as Given in The Biggest Secret
by Ivan Fraser?

The message <BADF35AC.8D6A%r.partri...@verizon.net>
from Richard Partridge <r.partri...@verizon.net> contains these words:

I believe some of the loony private-militia survivalists presently run
on a conspiracy theory that H.M. is plotting to subvert and reconquer
the USA....

It'd be their right, and in their image of Britain (sedulously promoted
by R.Murdoch Industries) the monarchy stands for all the stuffiest
things. But they can't cut Britain out of their culture or their blood,
so IMHO they ought to be more secure about it. Trying so stridently to
cut a thread  that hardly bothers them and has many advantages -- those
of any friendly link with another country, at the least -- suggests not
confidence in their own achievement, but lack of it.

A lot of people feel that, but it can be awfully hard to make oneself
heard against the Establishment. Charles, as in many other areas, gives
a voice to that kind of sentiment, in a way that an elected politician
with too many backsides to kiss can never afford to, and that an
undemocratic tyrant wouldn't bother to. Even when one doesn't agree with
him, an independent voice in the corridors of power is always valuable.
Besides, he can do Goon imitations.

Although an awful lot of what went up in the Sixties is now coming down,
often a lot quicker than people would like! I could be more
philosophical about changing fashions if it wasn't for what has been
destroyed to make room for it, marvellous old quarters of beautiful
cities I know -- Edinburgh and Oxford, among them, and Paris. And they
had the nerve to tell us at the time that this was the future and we'd
better get to like it! Now it just looks shabby and trashy, in a tenth
the lifespan of what it replaced. There was that bloody architect -- was
it Louis Kahn? -- who decreed that to make a building (or anything else)
deliberately beautiful was a dastardly act. And he was slavishly
followed by hundreds of mediocrities, glad to be relieved of the
creative effort.

Cheers,

Mike

--
mike.scott.ro...@asgard.zetnet.co.uk
From Little, Brown, out now -- Shadow of the Seer, the sixth Winter of
the World novel
Visit my site at www.users.zetnet.co.uk/mike.scott.rohan

"Mike Scott Rohan" <mike.scott.ro...@asgard.zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:2003050912503771187@asgard.zetnet.co.uk...

He's fallen in the water.