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From: Peter Groves <metrical...@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: humanities.lit.authors.shakespeare
Subject: Re: Quiz on plot in Hamlet
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2011 23:00:38 -0700 (PDT)
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On Apr 7, 4:07=A0pm, neonprose <neonpr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 6, 6:31=A0pm, nordicskiv2 <David.L.W...@Dartmouth.edu> wrote:
>
>
>
> > In article <4d992343$0$21500$607ed...@cv.net>,
> > =A0John W Kennedy <jwke...@attglobal.net> wrote:
>
> > > On 2011-04-03 17:59:58 -0400, neonprose said:
> > > > On Mar 29, 9:35=A0am, John W Kennedy <jwke...@attglobal.net> wrote:
> > > >> On 2011-03-29 03:17:12 -0400, neonprose said:
>
> > > >>> Divine Providence is a Calvinist notion
>
> > > >> No, it is a Jewish/Christian/Moslem commonplace. It is a Calvinist
> > > >> obsession.
> > > > Logically, it can be both a Calvinist notion and
> > > > a Jewish/Christian/Moslem commonplace. A
> > > > notion and a commonplace can co-exit in the
> > > > same space-time.
> > > My point is that one cannot reason:
> > > =A0 =A0Calvinists believe in Providence.
> > > =A0 =A0Hamlet believes in Providence.
> > > =A0 =A0Therefore, Hamlet is a Calvinist.
> > > One might as well reason:
> > > =A0 =A0Stalinists tell lies.
> > > =A0 =A0Rush Limbaugh tells lies.
> > > =A0 =A0Therefore, Rush Limbaugh is a Stalinist.
> > > Or:
> > > =A0 =A0Eugene O=92Neill=92s father is an alcoholic.
> > > =A0 =A0George W. Bush is an alcoholic.
> > > =A0 =A0Therefore, George W. Bush is Eugene O=92Neill=92s father.
>
> > =A0 =A0Careful, John -- this may not be the best way to explain your po=
int
> > to Elizabeth. =A0After all, Elizabeth believes that the princess
> > Elizabeth Tudor was the mother of the Earl of Oxford, so she might
> > well believe that George Bush is Eugene O'Neill's father!
>
> > > >> If any specific point of Jacobean religious controversy is present=
 in
> > > >> =93Hamlet=94, it is the question of Purgatory, and the play comes =
down
> > > >> squarely on the RC side of it. On the other hand, it is hard to be=
lieve
> > > >> that a Roman Catholic would have presented Thomas Cranmer as the
> > > >> saintly prophet he is in =93Henry VIII=94.
>
> > > > After you mentioned Cranmer I devoted three hours to
> > > > reading about Cranmer on Wikipedia. =A0I swear to God
> > > > that the article is a 67 screens long. =A0I just clicked them
> > > > off.
>
> > > > I think Cranmer's problem (in terms of his legacy, if that's
> > > > the right word) were his recantations at the end of his life.
> > > > They make him look like an equivocator. =A0He certainly was
> > > > an equivocator on his way to the stake. =A0I think Cranmer's
> > > > problem was that the English Protestants and Catholics were
> > > > far from finding a via media.
> > > I do not think you know what =93equivocator=94 means.
>
> > =A0 =A0I'm pretty sure that she doesn't.
>
> > > In any case, none of this has anything to do with the fact that, from
> > > Rome=92s viewpoint, Cranmer was a schismatic and heresiarch, whereas =
the
> > > play =93Henry VIII=94 presents him as a divinely inspired prophet and=
 a
> > > saintly man.
> > > > Of course that didn't satisfy the consummate scholars who
> > > > produced the famous 1908 Catholic Encyclopedia. They
> > > > thought the author was Protestant but if Shacksper wrote
> > > > the works he would have to be ready, like Littr=E9, to give
> > > > confession and receive absolution on his death bed.
> > > Committing a sin while thinking, =94It=92s OK, I=92ll repent later,=
=94 makes
> > > the original sin worse and, in most cases, makes the repentance
> > > worthless.
>
> And you've read Sir John McLane's biography
> of Sir Thomas Seymour, Baron of Sudeley, and
> I have not.
>

Amazing!  By Elizabeth's standards this is *almost* a reference.  "Sir
John McLane" is not a thousand miles away from John McLean, a
Victorian biographer of Seymour.

Peter G.