Moniment
Neuendorffer
for the Stratford "MONUMENT" because:
a)that's precisely what Leonard Digges called it &
b)that's OBVIOUSLY what it is.
I doubt that it was Digges intention to 'blow the whole conspiracy
cover' by using such a "loaded term;" however, I would not be a bit
surprised if the ridiculous laughingstock stuck to the north wall of
Holy Trinity Church was in fact the SOURCE of the Scottish dialect term
'moniment.'
In any event, I am personally more interest in where DIGGES
came from than the where the term 'moniment' came from.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
/---------------------------------------------\
| |
| Constance Blount --- Thomas
William Blount Elizabeth TRUSSELL | Tyrrell
[Lord Mountjoy] | |
| John deVere --- Margery--Charles Tyrrell
| |
Katherine Blount --- Maurice Berkeley |-----------\
| | | P. Bertie
| Edward deVere Mary---WILLOUGHBY
Widow Russell --- Henry BERKELEY (Ambassador
| to Elsinore)
THOMAS RUSSELL --- Anne Digges (Aldermanbury neighbor
(Shak's will) | Heminges & Condell)
LEONARD DIGGES
("Stratford moniment")
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Art Neuendorffer
David L. Webb
> I prefer to use the term "MONIMENT"
> for the Stratford "MONUMENT" because:
> a)that's precisely what Leonard Digges called it &
> b)that's OBVIOUSLY what it is.
>
> I doubt that it was Digges intention to 'blow the whole conspiracy
> cover' by using such a "loaded term;" however, I would not be a bit
> surprised if the ridiculous laughingstock stuck to the north wall of
> Holy Trinity Church was in fact the SOURCE of the Scottish dialect term
> 'moniment.'
If so, why do all the Scots dialect dictionaries date the first use of
the word in the sense of "laughingstock" to the mid-nineteenth century,
Art? And why did that sense of the word originate in Scotland? Surely if
the monument is such a "ridiculous laughingstock", that fact would have
been noticed before 1850, and it would have been noticed by viewers closer
to Stratford.
Notice that Spenser uses the spelling "moniment" at about the same time
as Digges to mean merely a sepulchre or a structure erected in memory of
the dead.
HoweVER, it's amusing that both you and Mr. Ken-nada *both* seem to have
found this mare's nest. [Hint: Look up "mare's nest" in the OED, Art, as
you should have done in the case of "moniment".]
> In any event, I am personally more interest in where DIGGES
> came from than the where the term 'moniment' came from.
But Art -- "Leonard Digges" is a perfect anagram of
Lodge readings!
Was Digges a Masonic phony as well?
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> /---------------------------------------------\
> | |
> | Constance Blount --- Thomas
> William Blount Elizabeth TRUSSELL | Tyrrell
> [Lord Mountjoy] | |
> | John deVere --- Margery--Charles Tyrrell
> | |
> Katherine Blount --- Maurice Berkeley |-----------\
> | | | P. Bertie
> | Edward deVere Mary---WILLOUGHBY
> Widow Russell --- Henry BERKELEY (Ambassador
> | to Elsinore)
> THOMAS RUSSELL --- Anne Digges (Aldermanbury neighbor
> (Shak's will) | Heminges & Condell)
> LEONARD DIGGES
> ("Stratford moniment")
So Digges is associated with people like Heminges and Condell, known
associates of Shakespeare of Stratford? Then there's nothing suspicious to
make anyone -- even *you*, Art -- smell a conspiracy.
David Webb
Neuendorffer
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > /---------------------------------------------\
> > | |
> > | Constance Blount --- Thomas
> > William Blount Elizabeth TRUSSELL | Tyrrell
> > [Lord Mountjoy] | |
> > | John deVere --- Margery--Charles Tyrrell
> > | |
> > Katherine Blount --- Maurice Berkeley |-----------\
> > | | | P. Bertie
> > | Edward deVere Mary---WILLOUGHBY
> > Widow Russell --- Henry BERKELEY (Ambassador
> > | to Elsinore)
> > THOMAS RUSSELL --- Anne Digges (Aldermanbury neighbor
> > (Shak's will) | Heminges & Condell)
> > LEONARD DIGGES
> > ("Stratford moniment")
-------------------------------------------------------------------
David Webb wrote:
>
> So Digges is associated with people like Heminges and Condell, known
> associates of Shakespeare of Stratford? Then there's nothing suspicious to
> make anyone -- even *you*, Art -- smell a conspiracy.
Yes the Digges/Aldermanbury/Russell/Blount/Tyrrell conspiracy.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > I prefer to use the term "MONIMENT"
> > for the Stratford "MONUMENT" because:
> > a)that's precisely what Leonard Digges called it &
> > b)that's OBVIOUSLY what it is.
> >
> > I doubt that it was Digges intention to 'blow the whole conspiracy
> > cover' by using such a "loaded term;" however, I would not be a bit
> > surprised if the ridiculous laughingstock stuck to the north wall of
> > Holy Trinity Church was in fact the SOURCE of the Scottish dialect term
> > 'moniment.'
>
> If so, why do all the Scots dialect dictionaries date the first use of
> the word in the sense of "laughingstock" to the mid-nineteenth century,
> Art?
The ridiculous laughingstock was stuck to the north wall of Holy
Trinity Church until sometime in the middle of the 18th century (1769?).
(The original Dugdale moniment isn't nearly as ridiculous as the current
version IMHO.) It probably took a little while for 'moniment' to become
an established Scotish term of derision.
------------------------------------------------------------------
The Scottish Connection
-----------------------------------------------------------
> And why did that sense of the word originate in Scotland?
A little friendly competition between York FreeMasons &
Scottish FreeMasons?
------------------------------------------------------------------
1314 The Knights Templar flee persecution at the hands of Philip IV
'the fair' of France by going to Scotland and start Freemasonry.
[from http://www.intranet.ca/~magicworks/knights/masonic.html ]
-----------------------------------------------------------
Motto of the Knights Templar.
NON NOBIS, Domine, NON NOBIS.
Not unto us, O Lord, not unto us.
Psalm 115
Not unto us, O Lord, not unto us, but unto thy name
give glory, for thy mercy, and for thy TRUTH's sake.
King Henry V Act 4, Scene 8
KING HENRY V Do we all holy rites;
Let there be sung 'NON NOBIS' and 'Te Deum;'
The dead with charity enclosed in clay:
And then to Calais; and to England then:
Where ne'er from France arrived more happy men.
------------------------------------------------------
1552 Girolamo Cardano ("father of Card gambling statistics"
and physician extraodinare) makes a 'house call'
to treat the Archbishop of Edinburgh.
[ http://www.lib.virginia.edu/science/parshall/cardano.html ]
-------------------------------------------------------------
1554 Philip Sidney born on St. Andrew's Day, 1554
(on the very same day that Bloody Mary dragged
England kicking and screaming back to Catholicism).
Astrophil & Stella & Stella & Swift
-----------------------------------------------------------
1570 - Oxford serves under the Earl of Sussex in campaign
against Scottish Catholic nobles.
-----------------------------------------------------------
1573 - English translation of Cardano's _De Consolatione_ comes out:
CARDANUS
Comforte, translated
And Published
by commanundement of the right
Honourable the Ealre of
OXENFORDE.
Interesting similarity between CARDANUS and:
Carduus n : genus of annual or perennial Old World prickly thistles
[syn: {Carduus}, {genus Carduus}]
Motto of Scotland and of the Order of the Thistle
"nemo me impune lacessitne"
"no one attacks me with impunity"
Order of the Thistle in Scotland is made of alternating
sprigs of thistle and rue. Boutell's Heraldry:
the words "and rue" are a pun on "Andrew".
Rue, n. [F. rue, L. ruta, akin to Gr. ?; cf. AS. r?de.] 1. (Bot.)
A perennial suffrutescent plant (Ruta graveolens), having a strong,
heavy odor and a bitter taste; herb of grace. It is used in medicine.
Ophelia: There's fennel for you, and columbines: there's rue for you;
and here's some for me: we may call it herb-grace o' Sundays:
O you must wear your rue with a difference.
---------------------------------------------------------
1596 Spenser, Edmund PROTHALAMION
127 At length they all to merry London came,
128 To merry London, my most kindly nurse,
129 That to me gave this life's first native source,
130 Though from another place I take my name,
131 An house of ancient fame.
132 There when they came, whereas those bricky towers
133 The which on Thames' broad aged back do ride,
134 Where now the studious lawyers have their bowers,
135 There whilom wont the TEMPLAR KNIGHTS to bide,
136 Till they decay'd through pride:
------------------------------------------------------
Mar.24, 1603 - Elizabeth is succeeded by James Stuart of Scotland
---------------------------------------------------------
1605 - _Don Quixote_ Part I published.
(Knight of the RUEFUL Countenance)
"HAPPY and fortunate were the times when that most daring knight
Don Quixote of La Mancha was sent into the world; for by reason of his
having formed a resolution so honourable as that of seeking to
revive and restore to the world the long-lost and almost defunct order
of knight-errantry, we now enjoy in this age of ours, so poor in light
entertainment, not only the charm of his veracious history, but also
of the tales and episodes contained in it which are, in a measure,
no less pleasing, ingenious, and truthful, than the history itself;
which, resuming its thread, CARDED, spun, and wound, relates that just
as the curate was going to offer consolation to CARDENIO..."
Cervantes' ragged Knight of the Sierra/THICKET (thistle?):
CARDENIO
"The ragged knight of the Sierra was a graceful and gracious youth, and
in his courteous and polished language showed himself to be of good
birth and courtly breeding."
----------------------------------------------------------
April 20, 1610 - Diary of Simon Forman describes plot of MacBeth
as seen at the Globe. Forman then commits suicide.
----------------------------------------------------------
1610 to 1616 - Shakspere involved with various relationships
with "Templars" including the Combe's family:
----------------------------------------------------------
1616 - Shakspere willed his sWORD(=WORDs) to Thomas Combe.
Card, n. [F. carde teasel, the head of a thistle, card, from L.
carduus, cardus, thistle, fr. carere to card.] 1. An instrument for
disentangling and arranging the fibers of cotton, wool, flax, etc.;
or for cleaning and smoothing the hair of animals;
-- usually consisting of bent wire teeth set closely in rows
in a thick piece of leather fastened to a back.
----------------------------------------------------------
1616? - Shakespeare's manuscripts buried in John Combe's tomb.
----------------------------------------------------------
1667 Jonathan Swift born on St. Andrew's Day.
----------------------------------------------------------
May 29,1687 - The Most Ancient and Most Noble Order
of the Thistle revived by King James II.
------------------------------------------------------
1735 (Bardolator) ALEXANDER POPE (1688-1744)
EPISTLE TO DR. ARBUTHNOT
98 His butchers Henley, his FREE-MASONS Moore?
211 While wits and TEMPLARS ev'ry sentence raise,
212 And wonder with a foolish face of praise.
257 Left me to see neglected genius bloom,
258 Neglected die! and tell it on his tomb;
278 "No, such a genius never can lie still,
279 And then for mine obligingly mistakes
280 The first lampoon Sir Will. or Bubo makes.
281 Poor guiltless I! and can I choose but smile,
282 When ev'ry coxcomb knows me by my style?
------------------------------------------------------
1740 - Westminster statue of Shakespeare installed
by Alexander Pope and (Freemason?) friends.
http://www.sirbacon.org/gallery/thistles.html
Shakespeare sports (chin in hand) Freemason posture
with a Thistle & Rue on his arm.
------------------------------------------------------------
ROBERT BURNS (1759-1796)
ADDRESS TO THE DEVIL (1786)
79 When MASONS' mystic word an grip
80 In storms an' TEMPESTS raise you up,
------------------------------------------------------------
From: A Visit to Edinburgh and Lodge Canongate Kilwinning #2.
http://www.freemason.org/scrl/monthly/edinburg.htm :
The "Royal Mile" leads from this castle to Holyrood Castle,
home of Mary, Queen of Scots, from 1561-1567.
[(1561-1567) when Sackville was Grandmaster Freemason.]
The present Lodge building was consecrated in December, 1736, and is the
oldest building in the world built for Masonic purposes. On entering the
Lodge room, one is instantly drawn drawn to what appear to be four
alcoves contining statues, two on the north wall and two on the south.
When approached, they are found to be cleverly executed mural paintings
of Lord Byron and Sir Walter Scott on the north wall
and ROBERT BURNS and WILLIAM SHAKESPEARE on the south.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Numerous Scottish Masonic writers: Wilkie Collins, Conan Doyle, etc.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Art Neuendorffer
David L. Webb
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> The Scottish Connection
> -----------------------------------------------------------
[...]
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> 1314 The Knights Templar flee persecution at the hands of Philip IV
> 'the fair' of France by going to Scotland and start Freemasonry.
> [from http://www.intranet.ca/~magicworks/knights/masonic.html ]
> -----------------------------------------------------------
Another of your reliable sources, Art -- like the Brotherblue space
aliens site and the racist site you consulted for your information on
Masonry and Mithraism! I doubt that you noticed this, since you prefer
grepping to reading, but the web page in question is engaged in the *sale*
of books promoting the putative Templar/Freemason connection; in view of
this obvious agenda, the reliability of some of the "facts" might well be
questioned. The supposed Masonic/Templar "connection" is one that has not
withstood scrutiny, and has in fact been rejected by serious Masonic
historians, both those who are eminent Masons themselves and those
professional historians who are non-Masons with an interest in Masonry.
> Motto of the Knights Templar.
> NON NOBIS, Domine, NON NOBIS.
> Not unto us, O Lord, not unto us.
But Art -- "nobis" is a perfect anagram of "bison", so perhaps the
members of the Order of Buffalo are the true descendants of the Templars.
I've already pointed out to you that there is *far* stronger evidence of a
conspiracy of Elks as custodians of the Shakspeare authorship secret than
of a conspiracy of Freemasons. but you wouldn't listen, despite my supposed
"insider" status.
Incidentally, Art, you haven't commented upon the "Leonard Digges =>
Lodge reading" anagram. I would have thought that you would really like
that, since it specifically ties the reading of Shakespeare to Masonic
Lodges and hence sheds light upon your often-repeated question about
Kilwinning Lodge.
> Psalm 115
> Not unto us, O Lord, not unto us, but unto thy name
> give glory, for thy mercy, and for thy TRUTH's sake.
>
>
> King Henry V Act 4, Scene 8
> KING HENRY V Do we all holy rites;
> Let there be sung 'NON NOBIS' and 'Te Deum;'
But Art -- you capitalized the *wrong hymn*! "Te Deum" should clearly
be read as "tedeum", which might well have been an alternative Elizabethan
spelling of "tedium", hence a reference to your repetitive "Agnes a gob"
posts.
[...]
> Motto of Scotland and of the Order of the Thistle
> "nemo me impune lacessitne"
> "no one attacks me with impunity"
>
> Order of the Thistle in Scotland is made of alternating
> sprigs of thistle and rue. Boutell's Heraldry:
> the words "and rue" are a pun on "Andrew".
>
> Rue, n. [F. rue, L. ruta, akin to Gr. ?; cf. AS. r?de.] 1. (Bot.)
> A perennial suffrutescent plant (Ruta graveolens), having a strong,
> heavy odor and a bitter taste; herb of grace. It is used in medicine.
And "Ruta graveolens" is a perfect anagram of
Ver -- nature's goal!
Of course, another anagram is
Ver (ogler) at anus,
which, in view of Oxford's reputation as a pederast who sodomized a boy in
his entourage, is equally plausible.
> 1596 Spenser, Edmund PROTHALAMION
>
> 127 At length they all to merry London came,
> 128 To merry London, my most kindly nurse,
> 129 That to me gave this life's first native source,
> 130 Though from another place I take my name,
> 131 An house of ancient fame.
> 132 There when they came, whereas those bricky towers
> 133 The which on Thames' broad aged back do ride,
> 134 Where now the studious lawyers have their bowers,
> 135 There whilom wont the TEMPLAR KNIGHTS to bide,
> 136 Till they decay'd through pride:
So Spenser mentioned the Templars -- so what? Hundreds of authors did;
they were a popular topic. Do you infer from this that Spenser was a Mason
and a member of the conspiracy? What about Crusader Rabbit, Art? You've
already enrolled the creators of Popeye in your Masonic conspiracy; is
Crusader Rabbit next?
[...]
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> April 20, 1610 - Diary of Simon Forman describes plot of MacBeth
> as seen at the Globe. Forman then commits suicide.
Do you *really* think it was suicide, Art? What about Masonic reprisals
for his disclosure of the plot of _Macbeth_?
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> 1610 to 1616 - Shakspere involved with various relationships
> with "Templars" including the Combe's family:
Do you have any *evidence* that members of Combe's family were
Templars?! I thought not.
[...]
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> 1616? - Shakespeare's manuscripts buried in John Combe's tomb.
PROOF?
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> 1667 Jonathan Swift born on St. Andrew's Day.
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> May 29,1687 - The Most Ancient and Most Noble Order
> of the Thistle revived by King James II.
> ------------------------------------------------------
> 1735 (Bardolator) ALEXANDER POPE (1688-1744)
> EPISTLE TO DR. ARBUTHNOT
>
> 98 His butchers Henley, his FREE-MASONS Moore?
>
> 211 While wits and TEMPLARS ev'ry sentence raise,
> 212 And wonder with a foolish face of praise.
>
> 257 Left me to see neglected genius bloom,
> 258 Neglected die! and tell it on his tomb;
>
> 278 "No, such a genius never can lie still,
> 279 And then for mine obligingly mistakes
> 280 The first lampoon Sir Will. or Bubo makes.
> 281 Poor guiltless I! and can I choose but smile,
> 282 When ev'ry coxcomb knows me by my style?
> ------------------------------------------------------
> 1740 - Westminster statue of Shakespeare installed
> by Alexander Pope and (Freemason?) friends.
>
> http://www.sirbacon.org/gallery/thistles.html
>
> Shakespeare sports (chin in hand) Freemason posture
> with a Thistle & Rue on his arm.
What's a "Freemason posture", Art? Why isn't he making the "John
gesture" like Leonardo and the *real* conspirators from the Rex Deus/Priory
of Sion conspiracy?
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> Numerous Scottish Masonic writers: Wilkie Collins, Conan Doyle, etc.
Wow! That's about as suspicious as the circumstance that many Italian
writers are Catholic and that many Russian writers were Orthodox, Art.
David Webb
Neuendorffer
> > 1596 Spenser, Edmund PROTHALAMION
> >
> > 127 At length they all to merry London came,
> > 128 To merry London, my most kindly nurse,
> > 129 That to me gave this life's first native source,
> > 130 Though from another place I take my name,
> > 131 An house of ancient fame.
> > 132 There when they came, whereas those bricky towers
> > 133 The which on Thames' broad aged back do ride,
> > 134 Where now the studious lawyers have their bowers,
> > 135 There whilom wont the TEMPLAR KNIGHTS to bide,
> > 136 Till they decay'd through pride:
>
> So Spenser mentioned the Templars -- so what? Hundreds of authors did;
> they were a popular topic. Do you infer from this that Spenser was a Mason
> and a member of the conspiracy? What about Crusader Rabbit, Art? You've
> already enrolled the creators of Popeye in your Masonic conspiracy; is
> Crusader Rabbit next?
Don Quixote's alter ego Crusader Rabbit,
a Tiger's heart wrapped in Rags,
& Spenser's patron Sir Robert Dudley Nightshade!
Art Neuendorffer